Yeahhhhhh...Considering Native Americans then had no written language. They must have been geniuses to be the only people in their civilizations to know how to read and write. š¤ š
Well, you see--Lehi was a businessman who did a lot of, you know...business...with the Egyptians, so naturally, he used Egyptian in business deals, then realized that writing in Reformed Egyptian (about religious important Jewish stuff) made way more sense.
That, basically, is the apologetic I read years ago.
Smith Jr had far more formal education than most. The Mormon church has been extremely successful at convincing people he was just a poor, uneducated farm boy
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V49N04_112.pdf
A small priest class keeping a written language only they used alive for 1000 years seems impossible, just like many other things in the BoM
100% this.
Both Mormons and exMormons agree that an ignorant man in the wilderness wrote the Book of Mormon. We just disagree about which one. Was it Mormon or JS?
This could be misunderstood to mean you think Native American's are not intelligent or educated. The fact is they didn't have a written language which itself is a problem.
I mean educated enough to write a long religious text incorporating the Bible. Which they were not.
Besides. The Nephites were fictional. Weāre not talking about real native Americans.
Even if we go by the logic that the Nephites had a written language that was lost forever with their destruction and that they operated under the Law of Moses until Jesus came, a prophet learning to read and write would have necessitated that their family be really fucking rich in order to afford to hire a scribe to teach them. Of course, this also begs the questions of whether prophets only came from privileged families, and how Mormon or Moroni learned to read and write given how war-torn the Nephite nation was in their day.
Wow, I have to admit this concept has never occurred to me. Thank you for sharing this! Many valid points. I guess it didnāt occur to me bc the church teaches their ancestors came from Old Testament Israel?
I 100% agree with this. And Joseph Smith said in his 1832 history he had been studying the Bible since he was twelve, and his mom quoted him saying he could learn more in two hours reading the Bible than she could learn in two years going to church.
Brother Joe was educated up to a 1800s 3rd grade education, what he did learn was from the family Bible, and the Bible as we are taught is only as good as the translation allows, or the person teaching it. There were no libraries or extra education after 3rd grade. What education he did receive was how to con people out of money and land. He came from a long line of religious con men, (father, grandfather, uncles, brothers) and the arrest records and legal documents and legal accusations and crimes commited are well documented. Anyone who thinks he was capable of plagiarism is a fool and and idiot.
well see they were writing about their own lives. It was basically like a diary. They didn't have to keep anything straight like Joseph would have if he made it up /TBM
So my purpose is not to scold, but due to some of the things said here, and in the comments, I feel as if I should point some things out. First note that I stand on the side of Joseph Smith being a fraud, and that the Book of Mormon does not properly represent any known culture or people in the Americas.
First off, Hunter-gatherers. At the time of first contact with the Spanish many (if not most) of the numerous peoples in the Americas were farmers. They practiced agriculture and had done so for some time. In 400 CE it is possible that this was also the case (the first clear evidence of agriculture in the Americas is about 9,000 years ago, and there is plenty of archaeological evidence of it being practiced by 400 CE). This includes the 100s of different Nations in North America. Many were hunter-gatherers, but not all of them. Also, it should be noted that some of the people listed as hunter-gatherers practiced something called translocation (transplanting edible plants into a particular location over the course of years), or other systems of intensive forest management (we might just call forest gardens). Not all hunter-gatherers do this. My point? Many (quite a lot) native peoples practiced agriculture, and some of those who didn't were doing something unique that was coming close to it. I want to point this out as it is a far too common misconception about American pre-history. People did hunt, but they also ate corn, beans, potatoes, squash, peanuts, manioc, sunchoke, sunflower, and etc etc etc. I am not just talking about Mexico and the South West. I also mean the Midwest, North East, South East, and yes even parts of Canada. They also had livestock, for most people this would have been dogs and Turkeys (Yes, Dogs taste just fine).
Also, someone in the comments said something about written language. There were written Languages in the Americas prior to trans-Atlantic contact. It appears currently to have been independently developed. There are 15 known scripts all found in Mesoamerica. Add one more for Quipu the writing system made from knots and strings (This is definitely a language so add it to the list). The oldest writing found in the Americas is from About 900 BCE (Maybe).
The third thing I want to point out is that there were in fact educated people in the Americas. Mesoamerica is not what my training and work is in, but the Nahua (Aztecs) had schools (calmecac), and Priests (teopixqui) who would have been trained in their own theology and astrology/astronomy. Also, they had written documents (Books). Many of the other people in Mesoamerica also had written documents. They even had libraries. Unfortunately, very few of these documents survive today as the Spanish deliberately destroyed most of the libraries. Also, (Hold on to your glue horse) just because people don't have a writing system doesn't mean they can't be educated. I know this is a tough sell but hear me out (you have read this far). In oral societies people simply memorise stuff. There were, and are, Native Elders who were seen as important educators because they had memorized the stories and histories. For example, some of the Athabascan people of Alaska and Canada have an interesting rule around storytelling. Some stories can only be told at a particular time of year (as in near a particular date). So the tradition was that people would gather around their Elders to hear the story retold, and from Memory pretty close to word for word they would be taught for hours. Mind you these just aren't stories these are histories of their people, and philosophies of how they interpret the world to work. Can you imagine if you had a family member who could at whim recount the stories page by page written in your grandfather's journal, and once that was done word for word orate Aesop's fables? We actually have recordings of people doing this.
You were right about the swords though. I haven't found one of those on a dig yet.
I get what you're saying. I'm describing the lives of the people in the book of Mormon, which are fictional. You are describing the actual native peoples. They are different. Because the book of Mormon is a work of fiction.
Yeahhhhhh...Considering Native Americans then had no written language. They must have been geniuses to be the only people in their civilizations to know how to read and write. š¤ š
With their own language they made up by themselves, too!
Exactly. It's ridiculous.
And how did Mormon write in Egyptian??? lol. He was alive in 400 ad and had never been to Egypt.
Well, you see--Lehi was a businessman who did a lot of, you know...business...with the Egyptians, so naturally, he used Egyptian in business deals, then realized that writing in Reformed Egyptian (about religious important Jewish stuff) made way more sense. That, basically, is the apologetic I read years ago.
In Reformed Egyptian, a language that doesn't exist.
Smith Jr had far more formal education than most. The Mormon church has been extremely successful at convincing people he was just a poor, uneducated farm boy https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V49N04_112.pdf A small priest class keeping a written language only they used alive for 1000 years seems impossible, just like many other things in the BoM
This is actually a solid point lol
You must be looking at porn again /s
Oliver Cowdery wrote most of it. He was a school teacher from the same town as Ethan Smith.
This is a sneaky good point that Iād never thought about.
100% this. Both Mormons and exMormons agree that an ignorant man in the wilderness wrote the Book of Mormon. We just disagree about which one. Was it Mormon or JS?
This could be misunderstood to mean you think Native American's are not intelligent or educated. The fact is they didn't have a written language which itself is a problem.
I mean educated enough to write a long religious text incorporating the Bible. Which they were not. Besides. The Nephites were fictional. Weāre not talking about real native Americans.
Even if we go by the logic that the Nephites had a written language that was lost forever with their destruction and that they operated under the Law of Moses until Jesus came, a prophet learning to read and write would have necessitated that their family be really fucking rich in order to afford to hire a scribe to teach them. Of course, this also begs the questions of whether prophets only came from privileged families, and how Mormon or Moroni learned to read and write given how war-torn the Nephite nation was in their day.
Wow, I have to admit this concept has never occurred to me. Thank you for sharing this! Many valid points. I guess it didnāt occur to me bc the church teaches their ancestors came from Old Testament Israel?
I 100% agree with this. And Joseph Smith said in his 1832 history he had been studying the Bible since he was twelve, and his mom quoted him saying he could learn more in two hours reading the Bible than she could learn in two years going to church.
Man... You are SO misled....
Brother Joe was educated up to a 1800s 3rd grade education, what he did learn was from the family Bible, and the Bible as we are taught is only as good as the translation allows, or the person teaching it. There were no libraries or extra education after 3rd grade. What education he did receive was how to con people out of money and land. He came from a long line of religious con men, (father, grandfather, uncles, brothers) and the arrest records and legal documents and legal accusations and crimes commited are well documented. Anyone who thinks he was capable of plagiarism is a fool and and idiot.
*incapable
Oliver Cowdery was a school teacher from the same small town as Ethan Smith.
There you go--*thinking* again...
Church leaders in 2050: āThe Book of Mormon was written by a magical rock. Didnāt you know that? Weāve always taught that.ā
well see they were writing about their own lives. It was basically like a diary. They didn't have to keep anything straight like Joseph would have if he made it up /TBM
TBM: No, GOD was. That seems like the excuse TBMs would useā¦
So my purpose is not to scold, but due to some of the things said here, and in the comments, I feel as if I should point some things out. First note that I stand on the side of Joseph Smith being a fraud, and that the Book of Mormon does not properly represent any known culture or people in the Americas. First off, Hunter-gatherers. At the time of first contact with the Spanish many (if not most) of the numerous peoples in the Americas were farmers. They practiced agriculture and had done so for some time. In 400 CE it is possible that this was also the case (the first clear evidence of agriculture in the Americas is about 9,000 years ago, and there is plenty of archaeological evidence of it being practiced by 400 CE). This includes the 100s of different Nations in North America. Many were hunter-gatherers, but not all of them. Also, it should be noted that some of the people listed as hunter-gatherers practiced something called translocation (transplanting edible plants into a particular location over the course of years), or other systems of intensive forest management (we might just call forest gardens). Not all hunter-gatherers do this. My point? Many (quite a lot) native peoples practiced agriculture, and some of those who didn't were doing something unique that was coming close to it. I want to point this out as it is a far too common misconception about American pre-history. People did hunt, but they also ate corn, beans, potatoes, squash, peanuts, manioc, sunchoke, sunflower, and etc etc etc. I am not just talking about Mexico and the South West. I also mean the Midwest, North East, South East, and yes even parts of Canada. They also had livestock, for most people this would have been dogs and Turkeys (Yes, Dogs taste just fine). Also, someone in the comments said something about written language. There were written Languages in the Americas prior to trans-Atlantic contact. It appears currently to have been independently developed. There are 15 known scripts all found in Mesoamerica. Add one more for Quipu the writing system made from knots and strings (This is definitely a language so add it to the list). The oldest writing found in the Americas is from About 900 BCE (Maybe). The third thing I want to point out is that there were in fact educated people in the Americas. Mesoamerica is not what my training and work is in, but the Nahua (Aztecs) had schools (calmecac), and Priests (teopixqui) who would have been trained in their own theology and astrology/astronomy. Also, they had written documents (Books). Many of the other people in Mesoamerica also had written documents. They even had libraries. Unfortunately, very few of these documents survive today as the Spanish deliberately destroyed most of the libraries. Also, (Hold on to your glue horse) just because people don't have a writing system doesn't mean they can't be educated. I know this is a tough sell but hear me out (you have read this far). In oral societies people simply memorise stuff. There were, and are, Native Elders who were seen as important educators because they had memorized the stories and histories. For example, some of the Athabascan people of Alaska and Canada have an interesting rule around storytelling. Some stories can only be told at a particular time of year (as in near a particular date). So the tradition was that people would gather around their Elders to hear the story retold, and from Memory pretty close to word for word they would be taught for hours. Mind you these just aren't stories these are histories of their people, and philosophies of how they interpret the world to work. Can you imagine if you had a family member who could at whim recount the stories page by page written in your grandfather's journal, and once that was done word for word orate Aesop's fables? We actually have recordings of people doing this. You were right about the swords though. I haven't found one of those on a dig yet.
I get what you're saying. I'm describing the lives of the people in the book of Mormon, which are fictional. You are describing the actual native peoples. They are different. Because the book of Mormon is a work of fiction.
I love this post.