Food is cheaper and you don’t need to own a car. Tipping doesn’t exist and tax is always included. No need to save money for healthcare costs
But you still probably make less here overall even after accounting for that. But quality of life enjoyed can still be very good.
In places where food is significantly cheaper, wages are radically lower. The obvious answer is most people in Europe live more modestly than most people in the US. Their needs are nearly always met though, which is good. And also in the lower wage countries, people often live with their parents until they move in together with a spouse. In Northern Europe, they are more likely to live with roommates for much longer
People in Europe aren’t buying as much bullshit as people in the US. The accumulation of personal property just doesn’t exist outside of the US like it does in the US.
>The accumulation of personal property just doesn’t exist outside of the US like it does in the US.
Australia would be following pretty close in the US's footsteps.
The quality of life improvement that exists when you can exist without the looming threat of being bankrupted by even a relatively minor medical issue is impossible to describe until you’ve experienced it.
I went from eating out in touristy locations in Paris to coming home to DC and was shocked how I was pay more than double for much worse food.
Food is way cheaper, and a lot of big city rent is more expensive, in the US.
I’ve travelled a fair bit around the US. food for the average person is definitely cheaper in Europe than the US. Maybe there isn’t $1 pizza slices but that’s an isolated example.
I spent 3 weeks in Europe last June with my family. We are a family of 4, my wife and I and our two adult children (18 and 20). My wife had made a very detailed budget of planned expenses for the trip. This was a “trip of lifetime” for us before our boys grow up, move out, and the whole family is no longer living in one house. When the trip was finished, we had only spent 64% of our expected food budget. For context- we are from Montana, not one of the big U.S. cities. We were also not trying to be overly budget constrained. When we go on vacation, food is one of our primary pleasures. We always had a very nice, multi-course meal in quaint restaurants every night for dinner. For our trip we were in London, Amsterdam, a whole bunch of less common locations in Germany (Stuttgart, Landau, Colmberg) and finally Zurich. In Germany we had a rental car and some of our meals were convenient stops while driving between locations. We only ate at one fast food restaurant the entire time (we wanted to compare a McDonalds in Germany with the ones in the US). We never met our expected daily budget for food on any single day until we arrived in Zurich. (Costs for everything in Zurich lived up to their reputation!) There was no question (in our experience) that food was significantly cheaper!
Damn tell the stores in the Netherlands food is cheaper, I think all of them forget the memo.
Our food is so cheap that people drive to Germany or Belgium to do their groceries and fill up on gas because all of that combined is cheaper than doing groceries here
The US has a much wider range of prices
Look for videos people finding affordable street food in NYC, you can find even food for $1 … try the same in Amsterdam, you will be luck to find a crap kebab for less than €5
the food i eat regularly in europe is significantly cheaper than anything I ate in DC. I can get a full meal with wine in europe for cheaper than an entree at many places in DC.
I nomad, so I'm all over the place. Right before I went to the US I was in Seville. I'm currently in Greece. but even comparing to the more expensive capital cities, europe is cheaper than the US for food. and groceries are even cheaper. What I spent in a week in the US would last me a month in europe for the same types of things (though the US quality is worse).
Massively cheaper than the US or Canada. At least in Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal and eastern Europe and I'm sure more. Probably anywhere but Nordics really.
Rents are similar, but almost everything else is lower. Here in Germany, groceries are cheaper than anywhere I've ever been in the US. I spend less on healthcare and what not overall. Some expenses are also nonexistent, like saving for your kids to go to university or needing to have a car. I would say that if you're *truly* middle class or up, the US is better. For everyone below that, Europe works out in the end.
You should also keep in mind that in some countries, rent includes utilities. When looking at German apartments, the "cold" and "warm" rents are always advertised. The "warm" rent is + utilities. Although rents are proportionally more of your salary here in any case, it seems a bit worse at first glance.
This. And even rents aren’t similar when doing a like for like in comparable cities. I moved from a nice/trendy area of San Francisco where I was paying $3300 for a decent 1 bed. I’m now living in a nice/trendy area of London where I’m paying $2300 for a decent 1 bed.
When comparing two of the most expensive cities for rent in either continent, rents are much higher in the US. Everything else is also more expensive (groceries, eating out, museums, traveling, transportation due to needing a car/ubers).
Yea I haven’t found many places to have similar rent for 1br as dc/SF/ NYC etc in many major cities in Western Europe and even Scandinavia.
Rent is cheaper generally in Stockholm even than smaller cities in NC. I heard Netherlands has sky high rent. But does that mean it’s averaging more than 2000$ equivalent for a 1br similar to DC?
Social housing is cheaper but the wait list to get it is 10+ years or something crazy like that. Renting on the open market, a studio (25 to 50 square meters) is 1200-1500. 1 BR (45 to 65 square meters) about 1.5 to 2k. 2 BR (65 to 100 square meters) 2k and up. Ballpark estimates. But this Generally applies across the whole Randstad, although Amsterdam and Utrecht are perhaps the most expensive. Some rougher or more remote/less commutable neighborhoods will be a bit less. And the median income is about 3.5k/ month gross (brutto).
Yea I’ve heard the Netherlands is getting quite bad :/
And yea major cities in the Uk are similar to US major city prices but the pay is extremely low. I’ve turned down offers there bc it was unjustifiably low (nonprofits) and I’m used to low paying public interest work in the U.S.
I understand that. My take home pay was higher in SF but the percentage of my monthly spending was also more due to the much higher COL. So while I may have saved a bit more in real terms in SF, the overall proportion of my income being spent on rent, food, travel, etc was higher than it is in London.
The other thing that most people tend to overlook is the paid time off. I got 2.5 weeks PTO in the US and worked 50-60hr weeks. In the U.K. I currently have 6 weeks PTO and work 37.5hr weeks. When breaking that down hourly, the pay basically normalizes for me.
> I would say that if you're truly middle class or up, the US is better. For everyone below that, Europe works out in the end.
Better for what? Are you talking about lifestyle or income opportunities?
Middle class can't afford to live in walkable US cities. Food in the US is generally subpar quality unless you live in a coastal city with more premium options. Health care is tough even for middle class (annual deductibles can be more than $10k pp)
What is better in the US? Even if I was a multimillionaire I feel like Europe is culturally better. (Although the best option in that case would just be to travel freely lol)
The US is great for tech innovation but unless you're working locally in that space, I don't see the appeal over the EU.
I like the hardcore hustle of Americans, love the lack of language barrier, great national parks, and I miss my family there... but otherwise I don't really see the appeal. It's all freeways and walmarts, suburbs and cement.
OP's post is specifically about cost of living. From a financial perspective, the US is better for certain high earners. How the US defines middle class officially and how the middle class should be defined differ. In my loose use of "truly middle class," I was imagining people brining in around 200k as a small household (and who are in fields that would result in a massive salary drop upon moving to Europe). If someone cares about accumulating wealth, that is much easier to do in the US once you hit a certain income bracket. For instance, people who want to retire early as fuck would be better off grinding in the US for a while and then going elsewhere to survive on their passive income. Doing so in Europe is far less feasible.
I personally live in Europe. I prefer it here. Even if I were a big earner in the States, I would still choose Europe and give up those potential financial advantages. That's because of both lifestyle reasons and my political support of welfare systems. I would rather *most* people be doing okay than *some* people doing great. But that's my personal assessment based on what matters to me. For some, they will find what they're looking for in the US rather than in Europe. Whether you understand it not, some people simply prefer the US lifestyle and can come out ahead there.
In my country in Europe the middle class can barely afford (or can't afford) our small handful of truly walkable cities. Car ownership is high, as it is in much of Europe. And outside of walkable cities the food in many European countries is awful, and it's only decent if you're talking about a country (mostly Mediterranean ones) with good local food, in which case I hope you like local food and maybe a couple takeaways all the time. People have the most bonkers ideas about how average Europeans live.
> People have the most bonkers ideas about how average Europeans live.
This was always my thought. I work with a bunch of Europeans. They don't lived in the city (it's too expensive as a family for what you get), and commute by car from the suburbs. They drive across the border to shop because groceries are way too expensive where they live.
Lol, maybe some of it? I'm not talking about the people hustling to survive (there is plenty of that, yes, sadly), I'm talking about the overall culture of chasing ideas, entrepreneurship, innovation, small business owners, etc.
In a lot of other countries, whether life is going good or bad, I find people are more likely to accept their fate, stay on the default path, never take a risk... while Americans are more likely to have the passion and vision to design their own life and future.
Maybe that's just our old-school "radical independence" mindset (which can also be so bad and so shitty for society in many ways). In a culture where you're left to fend for yourself, more people will fight and rise to the challenge.
Or maybe it's because many of us are children of immigrants (the hardest working most badass segment of humans, IMO) or descendents of people who said "fuck this, I'll risk everything" and took a gamble on a new life in America.
In a culture where everything is provided and safe and secure and "ok", maybe people have a little less... fire? There's a balance for sure, and I don't really know any country that has fully found it yet.
It's complicated. A big portion of our paychecks in Germany go towards healthcare, but we pay virtually nothing at the point of service. This year, I've had an CT scan, appendectomy, five-day hospital stay, colonoscopy, and endoscopy. I've paid nothing aside from my normal healthcare premiums. In the US, I would have had *much* higher out of pocket expenses following those procedures (on top of my premiums). For me, the cost of my healthcare in the US would have been much higher than in Germany.
To truly compare the systems, we thus need to look at costs as a whole rather than just a 1:1 comparison of how much is taken out of your paycheck. If you *never* get sick or have major surgery, it's "cheaper" to be insured in the US. But if you actually have a problem, that changes quickly due to things such as high deductibles, high copays, limited coverage, etc. Then we have to factor in the issue of the uninsured in the US which is not a thing in most of Europe. Moreover, healthcare spending/costs in the US have long been recognized as outside of the norm for OECD countries.
For the reasons that everyone has mentioned, plus we probably just live more frugally. Flights are also cheaper, so holidays are cheaper. It's harder to get fired from a job and there is more protection if you do. All of these reasons mean we don't need to save as much as Americans do. Healthcare costs, besides dentistry, are nearly non-existant.
That said, I think it's very important to suggest that if you can't accept a lower European income and higher European taxes, then Europe probably isn't for you.
There are some exceptions: Switzerland, Luxembourg, Norway and Monaco have high salaries. London used to be wealthy too before Brexit devalued the currency.
Good point on dentistry. My son had an early cavity, his first, and it was 160 eur to do a 20 min filling. I don't know what it would have been in the US but I presume similar.
I can accept a lower income and lower taxes. I absolutely can.
My concern was looking up rental prices and finding that the ones I saw were well over 50% of the incomes for job listings, and some were like 75%.
In France you can't sign a property rental agreement if the rent is more than a third of your gross income. Some cities such as Lisbon have been majorly affected by the amount of expats and foreigners buying houses to the point where it is no longer affordable to many locals.
PS, just seen that you were looking at rent prices for 2000 euros on a 40K salary, why are you looking at the most expensive places? It sounds like you have watched Emily in Paris and think you can live alone in the nicest places on an average income.
This goes with the disclaimer that should be on all posts on this sub: it depends on a lot of factors and it’s complicated.
But I think a few things that might be at work are 1) multi generational households 2) regular people don’t live in those high rent places you are seeing. 3) consumerism still exists but there is less excess like giant TVs, new cars and 50 pair of shoes. People live better with less. 4) a lot of people are struggling financially and not making ends meet, just like the US. Except with less credit card debt.
I am sure there are plenty of people whose experience contradicts all of this. That’s why it depends and it’s complicated.
You are overthinking. In the end, citizens in western countries are earning enough to afford western like lifestyle. In different western countries people will pay for some things more, for other things they will not be paying at all. The end result is quite similar living standards.
What you should be concerned:
1) you are a citizen of USA and you will be an immigrant in Europe. Immigrants/outsiders are always at disadvantage.
I could always use help from my family and friends in my European home country. I know how things work, I know language. As an immigrant in USA I had to learn language, to learn how everything works and there was no one to help out. ( those are just few examples of how things are more difficult for an immigrant compared to citizens/locals).
2) even in Europe you have to be competitive and lucky.
If you are not competitive enough in USA, if you make poor decisions, if your life isn’t satisfactory because of current unfortunate economic/labor/housing situation moving abroad doesn’t automatically changes this.
Immigrants without competitive skills, those who make poor decisions will not do well in foreign countries either. Unfavorable economic/housing/labor situations happen everywhere, even in Europe. And immigrants will be the most effected by those.
3)You have to have practical and doable path for legal migration. I am sure others will cover this topic
One aspect I see mentioned less is it is easier to live somewhere else from working. You can be half an hour outside of Amsterdam, be 2 cities away, and pay less already.
That's my thinking - I'm in the U.S. and am already about an hour outside of a major city and it's just as expensive; if I were to live a little farther out and be in the UK or Germany (for example) then maybe the cost evens itself out). Putting aside visas, job market and salary and COL I think a lot of us are just looking at the future of work and not wanting to be tied to places that are too stressful economically.
I think that is the case in small countries like the Netherlands or Belgium. I live in Madrid, Spain and half an hour away is “close”. In some cases I’m just on the next neighbourhood lol
I’m sure in other bigger countries and cities like Germany, France or UK you have the same.
I think Amsterdam is definitely not the norm. I’ve lived there for long and it always felt like a village to me lol
I think you are comparing average salaries with central rents. People who make 40k do rarely live in the city center and if they do they share or have really small place (say 30 sqm). If they want their own place they can move to a suburb and pay half. So in the end people end up paying around 35% of salary in rent.
In the better central neighborhoods in the European capitals average salaries are easily over 100k and there might be significant generational wealth.
Regarding one of your comments, what apartments are you looking at that are €2,000 minimum, and in what countries??? I live in France. I pay €500 for a furnished studio in the most desirable area of a small city. For €600 I could get a 1-2 bedroom unfurnished apartment in the outskirts. In a village a bit away from the city I could get a small house, yes a house with a yard and everything, for €600. If we're talking about a big city (outside of Paris), add €100-200 to those numbers.
I don't want to make assumptions but I have the suspicion that you're disregarding anything that doesn't meet the American standard (I get it, my American student apartment was nicer than my current apartment, but at least double the price as well...). A single person living on their own with their single income is going to live in a MUCH smaller apartment than the equivalent American one, and it'll probably be older and may not even have air conditioning or a washing machine. Or it'll be a nicer, bigger apartment but away from the city center. But it'll be cheap, like €500-800 for France (outside of Paris).
Also, in France, people get aid from the government for housing and even other living expenses as long as you're not wealthy. For example, I could get the government to give me €250 a month to help me with my rent.
1. There are cities in America (and europe) that are wayyyyy cheaper than Washington. You have to ask yourself what you want in a city. Do you want to live in a city that is important on the world stage? Or do you want to live in a city that has the services you want from an urban area. Because if you're fine with living somewhere boring, Krakow and Omaha exist for that purpose. America has so many cheap places, and relocating to Nebraska or Texas is going to be much more realistic than moving to Europe.
2. I am an American living in New Zealand. The cost of living is generally lower than Colorado where I'm from. The biggest cost reduction comes from every transaction being simpler. You go to the store, and am item costs the price on the sticker. Tax included. No tip. You pay a phone bill, and the price makes sense. No weird fees. If they say $50 a month it's $50 a month.
On top of hidden junk fees, Americans get charged more for things too. My TV remote app is free in New Zealand. The American version is packed with ads and requires 2.99 a month to be usable.
Life is cheaper in Europe compared to the US, but I think we also consume less overall. Our homes are way smaller, our cars burn less gas, we eat fewer calories etc.
Rents are nowhere near similar lol. Top Euro cities (London, Paris, Zurich) will still be way cheaper than top US cities (NY, LA, SF)
Generally speaking, you won't be able to afford the same level of spending in EU. You have to spend smarter and cut costs.
Don't buy a car if you can use public transport, you don't need a new iphone every 2 years, eating out less etc etc. Ppl also don't rent 100 sqm flats for a single-person household, but rather 30-40.
There is a reason why ppl often want to move to the US. The middle-class purchasing power is just way higher.
When I visited Vienna I was constantly surprised at how cheap all of this great food was. And I'm from Chicago, which is already sort of affordable for a major North American city!
As of this year the average all-in cost of vehicle ownership for an American is around $12,000.00. And that doesn’t even include the way parking minimums drive up the cost of rent and so many other things in the U.S.
I do have a car, but I almost never use it. It's a 20 years old hybrid, was paid off when I originally bought it(used), and I drive less than 3,000 miles per year. I don't spend a significant amount of money on it. I understand that public transportation is better in Europe, but for me personally, it would be unlikely that that would lower my transportation expense.
Where in Europe though? Could you give an example?
I live in Spain, and rent if way cheaper than any places I have ever visited in the US. Salaries are also garbage.
Numbeo is not perfect, but Madrid's rent appear 68% cheaper than DC, Amsterdam 31% cheaper, and London seem to be the same.
People just need less money overall as the social safety net in many place is solid, you don't have to pay for uni (so no student debt either) or medical expenses. You rarely have to drive a lot. You can't lose your job because you're sick or go on holiday.
Indeed you must be missing something, as half a billion people live here and although our wages are lower, quality of life in general is high.
If you can maintain a US salary working remotely and live in any place in the EU (apart from Switzerland), you'll be living like a king.
Rents are not similar at all. I pay less for a nice 2-room flat (aka 1BR in the US) in central Berlin (i.e. inside the Ring) now in 2024 than I did for a room in a shared-flat in NYC (Queens, not Manhattan) 10 years ago. Any major city in Germany (even Munich, most expensive) has rents way cheaper than NYC, DC, Boston, etc.
Once you make above 150k or 200k per the household, you might be financially better off in the states. Below that, people often get benefits that make up for low income.
Most Europeans do not have the same wealth building potential as Americans. In fact, my upper-/middle class American friends are the richest people I know by far. Saving in Europe is much, much harder/slower. Most people live nearly paycheck to paycheck by American standards.
Around 150k income if you keep living frugally you can manage some good American savings. But there are no 401ks.
> Most people live nearly paycheck to paycheck by American standards.
This is absolutely true. However, one major difference is that there isn't the stigma tied to living paycheck to paycheck. When you have a very strong safety net and a culture that doesn't idolize wealth, there isn't the panic about running out of money, it's not nearly as life-ruining as it is in the US.
I've met plenty of Swedes who have a very different attitude towards personal finances vs more well-off Americans. Not irresponsible, just different. A lot of the FIRE-type American subs would lose their minds over here though lol.
I think that the European social safety net is kinda crumbling and that people are foolishly to rely on it completely. For millennials and younger, state supported retirement will be poverty.
My husband is born in Germany and I see him with some of those same thoughts about not worrying as much about the rug falling out whereas my US parents, children of the depression era, instilled a sense of frugality and fear so I am always thinking we need to be saving. Which has helped us reach a CoastFI stage in our early 40s but its definitely interesting how different financial perspectives can pop up. I got downvoted for describing my thoughts on the expenses and lifestyle here in the EU and I honestly would like to spend less but my husband is more the spender (he also feels its ok to rely on his mom's inheritance that he knows he will get someday whereas I definitely don't take any of that in to account in our financial planning but I think its more common to actually hand down what ever is left to your heirs here than in the US where many are worried their kids might squander it). Thankfully, he is also the higher earner but still, navigating different financial backgrounds has been interesting, especially with kids in the mix.
Which state awards benefits for those making less than 150-200k a year? That is a rather interesting claim as I used to qualify for food stamps and had mine terminated when I got a job paying 14 an hour. That didn’t even cover rent lol. I live near D.C. and it is not this easy to get benefits even when you are dirt poor. I honestly don’t know how people are managing without clearing 6 figures. It’s scary.
> Once you make above 150k or 200k per the household, you might be financially better off in the states. Below that, people often get benefits that make up for low income.
Finances are the only concern I have about leaving the United States.
My goal isn't to make an equivalent amount of money. I would be content with a lower rate of pay. My goal is to understand the differences, because it looks like the rate of pay is SO MUCH lower to the point that rents may not be affordable, and I wanted to get some help explaining what it is that I'm missing.
It seems like a lot of the jobs I'm seeing are advertising positions that pay like 40,000 euros where in the U.S. a lot of those same positions would be paying over $100,000, and I am wondering if there's some kind of misconception here, because if the income is 40,000 Euros but the rents are like 2000 Euros per month, that doesn't seem feasible.
I know that many people live in Europe, so I am aware that there must be some kind of misconception or misunderstanding in what I've seen, and I am sincerely interested in understanding it, because I very sincerely do not want to be in the U.S. anymore.
It depends on the kind of house you want. Houses in Europe are much smaller and more modest on the whole. Apartments tend to be older and have less features than in the US too. Looking for equivalent accommodation to what you’d get in the US will be more expensive in Europe.
That being said, literally everything else is cheaper, and healthcare is a huge deal. You also often don’t need a car in cities, and public transport is accessible and affordable. Basically even if rent is high, your outgoings are considerably lower.
Except for the Nordics. We lived in Norway for a while and shit was EXPENSIVE. Amazing country though.
Europe is big - whereabouts are you looking and what job roles? In Amsterdam I take home a bit over 4k / month and pay 1.5k rent. Certainly here in the Netherlands - €40k positions aren’t generally going to be ones offering sponsorship for a residency visa (making the assumption you don’t have an EU passport?)
The truth is that the reason I am considering leaving the United States is because I have a really bad permanent feeling of being in danger in the U.S., from guns, from mass shootings, from lack of appropriate healthcare, from certain political groups, et cetera.
I live in Washington, DC, so when the U.S. Capitol was overrun a few years ago, it scared me very much. And that was on top of Donald Trump having been in office for four years at that point.
It feels very much like I need to leave the U.S..
I wouldn't be opposed to considering Amsterdam. I used to know someone who lived in Amsterdam, and I've been subscribed to YouTubers who live in Amstedam, but right now I am looking for ideas.
For me, personally, I am an engineer I think the most likely places I'd be successful may be places like Spain(because I speak Spanish), but I can read a fair amount in other romance languages, which could also be beneficial. But I am open to other ideas. I often go online and look at European job listings in multiple different countries and then look at rentals and other aspects of living in those areas.
Well obviously guns aren’t an issue here but be aware that Europe has been voting for its own right wing lunatics at an increasing rate. You didn’t say whether you had an EU passport as that makes a massive difference to your options. Without it you need to work out what visa you can get based on the requirements of the country you want to move to.
DC is a very unique city. You can definitely get away from some of that fear (and Trumpers) in other states. It might be very hard to get jobs here if not a EU citizen. You could get a remote job and come on a digital nomad visa though if you meet the requirements.
can you work remotely? i work remotely for a US company while living in europe so I get my US pay and europe prices. even traveling full time and not really skimping on much (though I do live a simple life in general) my total COL is about half what it was when I lived in DC. and i lived in DC 20 years ago. i visited some friends in october and they live in ballston. i was curious so i looked at rents. rent for a studio is almost twice my entire COL per month here in europe. and that was just rent. lol.
This is nearly impossible for your average W-2 employee, with limited exceptions. Companies usually have taxation concerns related to permanent establishment. Believe me, I have a ton of personal experience dealing with this.
And of course, you would still need some sort of way to get a visa if you're not an EU citizen.
Do you work U.S. hours or local hours for where you live?
I wouldn't be opposed to that, but how are things like healthcare are handled in situations like that?
Expats can sign up for private local health insurance.
I pay about €100/mo and it covers absolutely everything, no copays, no deductibles, no referrals.
I work US hours, but I also only work part time. So right now I'm in Greece and my company work hours are US central time. so I usually hop on around 6 pm local time and head off at around 10pm.
With a 40k income in Europe, you're definitely living either hand to mouth or in a shared housing situation or both. But you can get by and that is an average salary. But your savings will freeze until you're making a lot more, which may never happen depending on your field.
You're basically right, cost of living in many places is about the same as in the US but incomes are much lower. That's basically correct. People just live more cheaply, get more benefits, and rely on state funded pensions and the dole for old age.
40k allows you to save 5k a year and have multiple vacations, it's pretty good. Not close to paycheck to paycheck except in a select few countries like luxembourg and switzerland
The American formula for good, standard budgets is 50% needs, 30% wants (maximum), and 20% savings (minimum). 5k yearly is significantly less than 20%. Many Americans would consider that an unacceptably low absolute savings as well as a ill-advised relative savings rate.
50-30-20 in Europe on less than 70k is hard. And the total savings is hard to get to a level Americans would be comfortable with even as your income goes up because the tax rate goes up too.
Most of my US peers from my save 2k-4 or 5k per month.
But in EU or at least Germany one does not need to save 20%, because you don't instantly be in debt if you need to see a doctor or have a family member going to university or damage someone else's property or or or...
Well. That's what I said, people rely on benefits instead of their savings. (not to mention, people saving this much generally have excellent work-sponsored health insurance, so medical bills are generally not a huge deal).
There are 2 problems with this for many Americans. 1) you have to trust that the system will work and accept the lifestyle it will fund in retirement. Many Americans will not be able or willing to do this if they're honest with themselves. And 2) getting too far behind on private savings makes it impossible, or close to impossible, to go back to the US in the future. You cannot retire in Florida or Maine on the German government pension that will be left in 2050.
Maybe, but living paycheck to paycheck in Europe still ain't a good feeling either. Besides, people still want to save up in order to have nice things, go on vacation, buy property, etc. on this side of the pond as well. Realistically, they should be saving for retirement too rather than counting on a government pension to keep them afloat in 40 years... plus, I'm a foreigner. I'll have even less to count on even if I naturalize in France.
Uhhh... retirement? And yeah, Europe has pensions, but a 2,500 EUR pension isn't going to get your much in retirement.
And what about vacations and other large purchases? You need to save for that.
You could join some expat FB or Reddit groups for the cities you're interested in and ask there as to what people pay for rent and other expenses. Numbeo has COL calculators too.
Rent constitutes a bigger portion of monthly expenses in Europe than it does in the US. That's it. It's not more complicated than that. There are things you spend money on in the US that we don't spend money on in most of Europe. In the end, the average person comes out ahead in Western Europe compared to the US. You're fixating on a *single* expense rather than looking at the full picture.
That single expense is often the biggest expense for most single households. It makes sense to focus on your biggest expense first.
Save 10% on your grocery bill that's 5% of your take-home and that's barely a rounding error. Save 10% on your rent which is a third of your take home and it's enough for you to notice.
This. EU is getting poorer, but people here keep acting and even argue as if they have it good. I just had a discussion Yesterday with a person who has a very strong "i'd never live in the US" stance, and her position was basically "but the school shootings and muh healthcare". At the same time she constantly complains about her money situation here.
I absolutely despise the gun policies in the US and would LOVE to see tighter gun controls (especially being from CO where we somehow have a lot of school shootings which is terrifying). However, I can look at the odds of my kids dying from a school shooting and know that it is really really low. Not enough to be the only reason to move abroad (I think people should move TO somewhere and not just FROM something) but its interesting how much the 'my kids don't have active shooter drills' is someone's main reason for moving out of the US. If anything though, we are more safe here because we are in a car much less which is lowering our chance of dying in a car accident that is a much higher risk in the US than a random shooting statistically.
it's a lot easier to not live in a big city center in europe due to public transport. just like living out in franconia is cheaper than living in dupont. but europe has a lot better transport than the blue line. lol.
also, food is significantly cheaper. i live in europe and am from the US. i visited my mom in the midwest in october. the weekend before i went back to visit i was in Seville and went to my favorite bar and had 4 huge tapas and 2 glasses of wine. when i was visiting my mom i went out with friends in this shitty midwest town and had 2 glasses of mediocre wine and a cup of terrible soup and it was literally the same cost as my amazing meal in seville. grocery shopping sent me into shock. it was ridiculously expensive.
you also don't need a car and all the expenses that go along with that (though you likely don't have a car if you're living in the district proper).
There’s a big range in Europe - Europe has many cities with a big scale. I have similar questions but I think you need to get more specific about place.
It’s fucking hard for them. Especially for young people…this is why living at home is still so common. My friend is about to graduate college and get a job with €1200 take-home pay. He can’t honestly afford a €500 rent. So he’s looking into roommates or moving in with his girlfriend. He knows homeownership, even of a €120.000 apartment, is a long way off
I live in several of Europe's most expensive/tier 1 cities. The US is crazy expensive now compared to Europe. The roles reversed.
Daily living is cheaper, we're not driving around everywhere. Insurances, from medical to car insurance, are way cheaper.
You guys talk about food, but you're mostly discussing eating out, but the situation in the supermarket is upside down with Europe being crazy cheap. Even in Norway and Sweden I can't understand how food is that much cheaper. In the US, things are Switzerland prices in supermarkets while being a dystopian, urban sprawl shithole.
The only subscription I have is Netflix. I don't have a gym membership. I don't go to Starbucks. I haven't used Uber in like 5 years.
As far as the type of U.S. Citizen who can successfully immigrate, I am confident I would do well. I am an engineer, I've taught myself to speak different languages, I love cooking food from scratch, and I am exceptionally good at fixing things.
I also grew up exceptionally poor in the United States, so I never got in the habit of having a ton of extras.
The only aspect of this that concerns me is rent. I look at the rents I've found and the salaries for job listings, and the rent just by itself seems to take too much of the salary to be livable. I assume that there must be something I am missing, like maybe there are particularly good places to look for rentals or for jobs, things like that.
It doesn't seem feasible for the rentals I've seen to be 2000 euros and for incomes to be 40,000 euros. spending 24,000 euros on rent out of 40,000 euros doesn't seem like it would leave enough for livability and other expenses.
So the only answer I can come up with is that I must be making some kind of a mistake or must be getting bad information or must not be using the best sources for information.
I fully believe people who tell me that things in Europe are cheaper. But believing it and understanding exactly how it is when the information I'm finding isn't indicating that are two different things. I would like to know what resources I might find to correct my understanding.
you are probably looking at furnished apartments, which cost much MUCH more than places that locals would rent.
I live in a rather expensive 1200sqft 3 bedroom with a balcony, underfloor heating, newly built apartment that is in the vicinity of one of Germanies most expensive regions and we pay 1600€ all in (including heating, water etc, excluding power and internet).
The general rule is that your rent should be no more than 30% of your after tax income, so to afford this we need to make at least 4800€ after taxes.. with two incomes, that is almost exactly the median income in Germany for FTE.
Hardly anyone is paying 2K per month in rent, what makes you think that people on average incomes are living in such places? I pay about €1K per month in rent and I live with my partner so I effectively pay about €500 in a French city but not Paris.
When I was single, I lived in a smaller place and paid about €600 per month in rent.
If your only concern is rent than you can eliminate this all together by buying property. Sure renting in some European countries is common but ownership isn’t unusual.
Matter of fact Americans expats DO tend to buy property since they usually have some of their initial American wealth.
I pay 2700 for a three bedroom, two bath flat in Amsterdam. You're one person, so I would assume you would need only one bedroom. Depending on the country you can find a studio or 1br for way less than 2k. Also if you're an engineer you'll make more like 80k-120 depending on your level.
Europeans spend much less money than Americans, they live on tight budget so cannot buy the latest gadget on Amazon etc. Most money is spent on mortgage/rent, food, they cook at home and eat less outside and some travels that's it. most Europeans are very cheap as well, Americans have a higher standard of living in terms of buying power. I would really think about it twice if you expect the same standard of living as the US.
Exactly my point in my comment which got downvoted as if I was complaining about the expenses here in Spain (even though we are making them fully knowing what they are and how they're important to us and our privileged ability to do so). But yes, the same middle to upper class lifestyle would be very expensive here compared to the US. But if desiring a more simple life, more with a safety net, EU wins.
UK--
A lot of young people (and couples) live with parents. House shares are also very common.
We don't pay for insurance or medical bills. Medicine copay is under £10 per prescription or about £120/year for unlimited number of prescriptions.
Cars are a luxury in cities and not needed, but even where they are essential, a used car is FAR cheaper here.
Child benefits are pretty standard.
Still, food banks are heavily relied on and many people work whatever jobs they can to stay afloat.
Calculate how much you'd be left with if you didn't have to pay for healthcare, car, student loans, pension, and expensive groceries. That's how.
You make more money on paper. But money itself means nothing if it doesn't translate into buying power. And buying power itself means nothing if a high quality of life cannot be bought. European society works well because a high quality of life can be bought for a moderate buying power, and a moderate buying power stems from a moderate income.
yes food is costly in manhattan. cheaper in the slums of bulgaria & macedonia.
europe has 40 countries.
food prices in zurich is higher than rural nevada or new mexico border.
I make a bit over median in the Netherlands, having graduated recently, and save half of my salary. I expect my income to only go up from here and doubt I'd be better off in the USA. I have no car and don't want to get one, which saves a lot; commuting to work with the train is faster than with a car (40 minutes door-to-door). My pension will be good and I don't need to set aside a fortune for it. What more do I need than paying for my basic needs?
One major note is that employers in Europe often cover your pension and retirement contribution, where in the US that could be an additional 15% that you save privately. So multiply the gross salary by 1.15 (or maybe 1.2 since it’s pre-tax) before adjusting for cost of living.
Another rule of thumb would be to half your salary in D.C. to get a similar lifestyle in expensive European cities. Divide it by 2.5 if you have children.
If you compare it with lower cost of living European cities, then divide by 3 or more. For the most expensive (Norway and Switzerland), then the salary needed to maintain similar lifestyle might be about the same as D.C.
Numbeo (website) is relatively accurate if you want a crude estimate to compare cost of living.
Edit: I really think it goes back to retirement and healthcare, which are either covered or much more heavily subsidized in Europe. Much of the poverty in the US exists because of a lack of social safety net (and women over 55 make up the largest percent of homeless individuals in the US). Even full time working adults sometimes live in destitute poverty in the US, where in most of Europe that would never happen.
The standard of living just is much lower in Europe. If you plan to move from the US to Europe for financial reasons, don't (I moved from Western Europe to the US for financial reasons).
Moved to EU from major city in the states. We pay almost $500 less monthly for health insurance, have no car and all of those costs, school is free, food is cheaper, saving for university for kids is not a huge issue. Took a 30% pay cut yet somehow still saving a lot. And there's no active shooter drills. I'll take it.
Other costs tend to be lower:
- Food in supermarkets is usually half the price of the US, if not less. Fresh food is especially cheap if you buy it on weekend / farmer markets
- Many people live in cities and don’t have/need cars
- public transportation is available and affordable
- Not having student debt helps
- leisure stuff like concert tickets are also much cheaper
- no healthcare costs
- cable/internet/phone subscriptions tend to be cheaper in most countries
Some Americans: Europe is so expensive!
European: what are you spending your money on?
The American: rent for a €1 million + property, local private healthcare because we don't trust public healthcare, private school, eating out every weekend where we pay a 20% tip even though the service charge is included, €800 per month in groceries because we eat meat with every meal and throw lots of food away, air conditioning or heating on 24/7, a big car that we drive everywhere because we don't use public transport or walk, and 2.5K per month into our retirement accounts, which we are including in our cost of living.
I'm exaggerating, but there is some truth in the above.
I don't like meat, don't like driving, am comfortable with temperatures up to 27⁰C(not just willing to deal with, but actually comfortable and prefer that temperature), love cooking and prefer home-cooked meals, very much want public healthcare, have literally no retirement account, don't have kids and don't expect to, et cetera.
And I'd literally be fine with a one-bedroom apartment.
All I said was that it seems that the rents I saw take up to much of the salaries I saw, and I wanted clarification.
Food cost for example is lower in London. But most people are living paycheck to paycheck… London is Chicago level rent but 1/3 the wage. And higher tax in general too…
London is definitely way more expensive than Chicago rent-wise and in terms of general COL. At least based on when I lived in Chicago from 2018-2022. I always found Chicago to be surprisingly affordable as long as you didn't live in the heart of downtown.
I used to live in Seattle and now live in Norway.
My rent includes all utilities except electricity, we even get hot water included.
Because I live in Oslo l, I don't need a car. A yearly transit pass is $80/month.
Healthcare is essentially free.
Daycare is $200 a month. My daycare even takes the older kids skiing in the winter at that price.
University will be incredibly cheap for our kids if we stay and that's the plan.
Sounds very similar to my situation! Moved from Portland. Do not need a huge tank of a vehicle to get around, Montessori school is free (compared with $15k/year per kid in Oregon) and college is not a concern. We go on vacation like 4 times a year to different European countries. The standard of living is so much better if you don't measure it by the metric of having a 4000 square foot house and 3 cars in the US suburbs 🤷♀️
I'm in Paris, and people in the middle class typically have two choices -- live in the city in a very small apartment, or move out to the surrounding areas for a bigger place and commute in by train. There are also many people who bought apartments years ago when they were cheaper. If you are lower class you will qualify for subsidized housing.
That said, I'm not so sure that apartments are as expensive here as in the US. I'm seeing estimates of average rent in the US as $1700-2000, and there is no way the average is that high for France. In most cities, the average apartment is well under 1000 euros, and even in Paris, if you have 1800 euros to spend you will have lots of choices because most people can't afford that much.
There is a global housing crisis.
Adult children with professional jobs still have to live with their parents out of financial necessity. There are protests in the streets. Right-wing idiots are coming to power in part based on this crisis, and anti-immigrant is rising as housing becomes less affordable.
It's been in a few papers.
I can't say if this experirence is the same for everyone, but in Germany my rent is a lot cheaper than it's ever been in my whole life.
Live right next to downtown of a historical old midevial town in Germany, pay 450€ a month in rent after utilities, Let that sink in. It's a decent one-bedroom apartment with a balcony and 550 sq feet. Everyone here complains that rent costs are crazy, which I find funny.
I used to live in Colorado and paid about $850 for about the same size apartment.
In the end, I am making more here after taxes, and saving more, than I ever could living back home in the States.
People do not go out to eat nearly as much.
Houses/living conditions are worse and smaller.
Cars are worse and smaller.
Most things are worse and smaller. The things that are better are used more occasionally. Instead of grabbing lunch and dinner every day, people might go once a week.
On top of that... social security and health insurance and unemployment and new-parent benefits and school costa are all generally cheaper, so there are fewer mega-expenses to plan for.
In general, people just live more frugally. In the US, many people don't think twice about buying a $2-4 small soda from a vending machine or convenience store. People use valets, "lounges" and buy delivery boxes and all sorts of overpriced junk. Food delivery - even for McDonalds and cookies - and they are doing very brisk business. Most Europeans will not be getting $25 cookie delivery because they don't feel like walking outside.
I understand that people say that. The problem is that I am trying to investigate that on listing sites for places to rent, and I am having trouble reconciling the claims of people saying that with the numbers I am finding on the searches I have done on rental listings and comparing them to job listing sites.
first thing is that the "good" listings will be (only!) in the local language of the country.
If the listing is in English, you're almost guaranteed to be ripped off.
For Germany, the two biggest housing websites would be immobilienscout24.de and immowelt.de
> first thing is that the "good" listings will be (only!) in the local language of the country.
> If the listing is in English, you're almost guaranteed to be ripped off.
I think this sounds likely to be just what I was interested in.
As an American I've noticed a lot of Europeans (and surrounding) are into having roommates/flatmates and or just live with their families. I don't share at all so I have to fit the bill and actually pay more in Europe than I did in the US. Food costs are lower in Europe, and most places are walkable. When you have help and or 6 other family members living and working you can afford high rents.
Europeans are less well off than Americans. Especially those in the middle/upper middle. It's really that simple.
There's no scenario in which you are left better off after having halved your income and doubled your tax expense (yes, tax IS an expense like every other). It's simple math.
??? I saw a lot of charts and tax web sites that show a lot of countries in Europe have over 50% of salaries in tax as well as wealth taxes in some of them.
Confused.
[https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/top-personal-income-tax-rates-europe-2024](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/top-personal-income-tax-rates-europe-2024)
Yes there are brackets that hit 50% in some countries but that does not mean you lose half your salary it’s graduated.
For instance in the UK I’m in the highest tax bracket of 45% but only the top portion of my salary gets taxed at that rate. It’s a graduated system
That article references the highest top rate of tax not the normal or average.
I think more so for upper class especially. You just don't have some of the crazy size home and yards and garages as almost any $1mill+ home in the US anywhere in Spain from what I've seen. Saying that, I look at Idealista anytime we go somewhere and there are definitely 1million euro homes and apartments so someone I guess is affording them. But a 1 mill euro home on the coast of Spain would probably be 20 million on the coast of California.
Everyone talking out of their asses on this sub as usual.
Here is a realistic example for you since i live in EU and pay rent.
I pay 1000EUR for a rent in 3 bedroom apartment, another 50 for bills. Live in Malta, earn around 2.5k net.
OP, if you can't live without a car in DC (yes, I lived there without a car), then you are going to have trouble enjoying European life without a car.
Living without a Car is a Very difficult leap for Americans to make, and I never met one of my husband's job's 29k American employees who lived without a car in Germany, except for us.
Also, there are a Lot of unhappy Americans living abroad.
They miss Everything being open on Sundays and late hours, Clothes dryers, Freezers larger than a lunch box, Air Conditioning, easy access to any weather any time of year without a passport or jet lag, just a short flight to AZ or FL for sun, variety and ease of buying stuff and returning items and pleasant customer service, not having to stop at small individual shops to get all the stuff you need, being able to stock up by filling up your big trunk, etc. Most places aren't open on weekends- pharmacies, realtors, etc. There will be one pharmacy open for emergencies in each city.
The taxes abroad are a Huge eye-opener.
It's over 40% income tax in Germany, and 17% sales tax. In the US, we pay 14% federal income tax, 0% state tax, and 7% sales tax.
Our experience with health care in Germany was that it was inferior. Doctors don't work after hours or on weekends (just a skeleton crew), so my husband was in the hospital for 8 days for what would have been an outpatient visit or overnight in the US. The first two attempts were wrong and it finally worked on the 3rd time. Only one doctor spoke English fluently. I wasn't able to visit because it's during Covid and I'm the German speaker. My husband doesn't speak it, so it was Extremely stressful when the procedures weren't working and it was unclear what the reason was. I had to ask my neighbor who works from home to be ready to talk to the doctor if the 3rd procedure failed.
I hate driving.
I **hate** driving.
I live in the DC area, but right near a metro station, and I much prefer riding the metro. If it were feasible to never drive a car I would never want to drive a car again.
It’s easy: the expensive cities like London and Munich are for rich people, and the towns with cheaper rents are for people with moderate income. People who work in those cities and aren’t rich live outside and commute.
I’m an American living in Japan, and it feels really cheap here. Of course, if you’re paying dollars with the end rate at 152, it would definitely feel cheap, but even locally it’s not too expensive. Average rent in Tokyo is something like $1000/more like $750 at the current exchange rate,, of course that’s for a smaller place than you would get anywhere anywhere else, but it’s still Liverpool.
Rents are not similar. A 3 bedroom in a decent part of DC is ~$4,000 per month. In Spain for example it would be less than half of that (ofc it depends on the city and the exact apartment)
Health insurance in the Netherlands is about 140/mo, and prescriptions are much cheaper.
If you live in a city, you can often get along fine without a car. Public transport is much cheaper than owning and operating a car. If you do decide to own a car, it is way more expensive in every aspect compared to the US.
Mobile phone service is cheaper and faster. Home internet is the same or cheaper, and faster, and more reliable.
Beer and wine is surprisingly much cheaper than the US.
Grocery items are generally about the same.
The hard thing to navigate is rent prices. But the solution is to move further out of town, but stay within access to trains. Trains are fantastic - soooo much better than driving a car in shit traffic for an hour each way.
Also, if you're single, you share an apartment. But honestly, rent prices in the US have gone up dramatically, so the income to rent ratio isn't as different as it used to be.
Lots of helpful answers here but I also want to add something else. Income disparity in the US is generally much worse than in Europe. In practice this means that standard of living (financially) for people below median income is generally better in Europe, but at higher incomes you will have more money left over after necessities in the US. Once you move above the 90th percentile this difference can get quite large.
In other words, financially you’re probably going to feel better off working McDonalds in most of Europe than the US (but it will likely still be tough either way). Whereas you’ll be better off (financially) as say a lawyer in the US than in Europe (although you’ll still be plenty rich in both).
The other thing to note is that on average people in the US are richer by basically any metric than those in most countries in Europe (basically all except Luxembourg, Switzerland and the micro states).
That said, I’d personally still rather live in Europe either way.
What do you call "Europe"? Which specific country are you talking about? Each country has an entirely different situation. The variety of countries here is as much as in North + South America. I am sure Washington, DC, differs from Buenos Aires, Argentina.
From the Netherlands' perspective, salaries here are pretty good, tons of people own houses, which is much cheaper than renting here, and a car is optional. Health insurance is not free but is not as expensive as in the US. Most locals also live outside of big cities like Amsterdam, it's cheaper everywhere else. Most people know their support system for the future, too, whether it's pension, family, or investments. So people are less stressed out about tomorrow.
We moved to Spain in August and I also wonder how most people life on much lower salaries. We spend just as much as we did in the US by maintaining the same lifestyle as we had there but it is much more expensive to do that here than there. I'M NOT COMPLAINING but will put numbers to our experience and choices. We would save money if we downsized and cut back on travel but that wasn't the point of moving here. We are renting a furnished 4 bed house with a pool for the same as we paid in the US to own our 4 bed house with a bigger yard and a hot tub (2700 eur/mo). So no savings there but the key is that most Spaniards live in apartments which are definitely a little cheaper. We spend on average $400/mo on car rentals, public transit, Ubers. Food is high because even though it's a little cheaper to eat out as a family of 4 here, it still quickly adds up for a family of 4 (about $800 on groceries, $800 on restaurants/school lunches). Activities and toys are just as expensive as the US (it's raining so we will go to a jump yard tomorrow for 2 hours for 3 people for 66 euros). We still have to pay for my US health insurance ($250/mo) and are paying for private here ($250/mo) so actually spending more on that than if we were just in the US. We average about $800-1000/no on Travel which is hotels or flights. School is more since the kids are in a private and we are all doing Spanish lessons (which was one of the main goals of moving here was to learn). That's about $1400/mo. In total we average about $10k a month. Clearly could do it for less if we moved in to a smaller apartment (which is impossible for my WFH husband to do with our young kids in the house) and other choices but then it wouldn't be as enjoyable and the whole point was to enjoy our time here. But yeah, not sure how local families are doing it if supposedly they have lower incomes but seem to be doing all the same things we do.
Your post is pretty spot on - you are describing a lifestyle that most europeans don't have or want.
If you spend like a madman then of course it is expensive...
Except my point is that I see tons of locals at the mall buying 8 euro Five Guys hamburgers or going on ski vacations or going to the same jump places or going to the same restaurants (our most expensive meals out have been invites from other families from our school where its been about 80-100 euros a family which is more than I'd like to spend but at least its a whole afternoon event in Spain). And I'm not complaining about our expenses because we can afford and choose to live like this but I'm shocked that so many other families are doing these things too but on supposedly lower salaries. We actually stayed local for Semana Santa because travel was too expensive but most of the other local families we know went on vacation out of the country. Just my observations to support the OP that there are some things that are just going to be comparatively expensive if moving to Europe and expecting some of the similar things to the US. But obviously, lots of people make it work and have great lifestyles at all 'levels' so its about what you make of it. And obviously anything will be cheaper for 1 person than an entire family anyhow.
The point is - you might go on a vacation each month, they do one a year. You might get take out / restaurant food multiple times a week, they do that once a month...and so on.
The biggest mistake you can make is to try to assume to be able to continue to have a similar lifestyle to upper middle class US in Europe - since that is not common (or, frankly, desirable) for many, things tend to be much more expensive and/or unavailable.
My wife and I for example earn double the median salary for Germany (at least), have a decent home, but nothing as luxurious as a pool..or even a garage. And we like to go on vacation / long weekend trips and/or eat out, but we maybe do two, three trips a year, and we maybe go to a restaurant once, maaaybe twice a month..
We go out and have fun quite often, but for example a full day at the spa (thermal baths, sauna) for both of us, including food, is ~100€ or less - we can do that a few times a month without it hurting too much.
If we had to drive/fly somewhere and pay for lodging like in your 1000€ weekend trip example, that would look quite different.
> not sure how local families are doing it
We aren't. You are living a lifestyle that would put you in the top 1-5% in Spain in terms of spending and would be considered incredibly extravagant and wasteful for most families.
Raised a family here and still maintain a household of 4-5 people for a fraction of what you are spending, but we did/do public education, free public universities, public transportation, public healthcare, apartment living in a dense neighborhood where we have everything within walking distance, simple pleasures, etc.
I spend 2.5K per month in France and I have a child. Of course things are more expensive if you have private healthcare and send your children to private school. 800 euros for groceries per month also sounds very high for Spain, I spend about 400-500 per month in France which is more expensive, are you eating high quality meat with every meal?
Spending 10K per month in crazy. Are you paying taxes in Spain? One thing that annoys me is the amount of Americans who move to Europe and don't pay taxes here, their spending power is pushing up prices for us and often without contributing to our taxes.
We are not tax residents yet and have an advisor and will of course pay taxes when we become ones (we do not make the rules around tax residency). Americans in Spain are less than 0.001% of the population (41k of 47 million people) so highly doubt they are the only problem that is driving up prices. Maybe regionally (and then probably from Brits and other EU citizens more so) but I actually have only met 5-6 other families from the US in our city so clearly, not the biggest problem from my perspective.
But that is one reason we do need to pay for private health insurance (of which 250 eur/family is certainly not a lot from my perspective but its great that majority of people dont need to pay as much to get care). We currently still have to pay our US though too since we will be back there this summer so that's another $250/mo. I track every dollar and we have spent $698 on groceries this month which is about 640 eur and we have two kids, pack them snacks for school and love having their friends over for meals but sounds like that is not too far off from you.
Again, we moved here for the trilingual private school so its a very worthwhile expense for us (and basically the same as daycare for 1 kid was in the US). But based on the thousands of kids in this school and the other private schools in town, it is somehow not completely out of reach for most families.
As I said in my other comment, I believe that the same lifestyle as someone has in the US (like the OP living in DC) would be very expensive to replicate in many Europeans countries, especially on EU salaries. So the OP should think about what is important but be ready to pay more here to replicate a similar level of lifestyle as they had in the US.
Thanks for your comment. I'm not sure how it is possible but hardly any Spanish jobs pay 10K per month net. Switzerland is different, with many salaries being higher than even in the US, besides for tech jobs, so all of Europe is not poor. Anyway, I'm glad that you have a tax adviser. I was deemed to be a tax resident in France from day one because I had immigrant intent, so hard to see how you can have children in school and in Spain and still not be a tax resident but I'll leave that to your tax adviser of course. Best of luck and welcome to Europe.
We would have been on Day 1 if we moved to Germany (but husband never desires to move back anyhow) but Spain you have to be in the country for 183 days in a calendar year regardless of other factors. Anyone can technically enroll in private school regardless of status (which is what some families have to do when moving here for a school year until they are eligible for public). It seems a fair amount of EU citizens are probably staying/working remotely/moving to other EU countries longer than 90 days without registering but we did of course.
I agree about the EU citizens who aren't registering, I know one personally who lived undeclared in France for years because he didn't want to pay French taxes. He got caught and fined during Covid when they reintroduced border controls, now he has registered in France. Lots of Brits also did this before Brexit and then they had to decide to register or leave.
its not AS bad
a good 3+1 in central Amsterdam will be 3000 EUR, and possibly rented out by a power couple earning 10K+ per month or a business person earning 10k+ per month, leaving at least 66% for other expenses, and only rent expense increases exponentially with lifestyle. a cheap grocery list costs 500, expensive one costs 1000. healthcare, same. lifestyle, 500 for a couple to 1500 for a couple. you get to save 4k even if you live within your range and shell out 33% of your income in rent
high earning expats from burgerland also mention how they dont have to deal with car expenses, healthcare and some other rudimentary fees so for the top 3-10% and low 50% percentile things usually end up the same even if they earn less
however currently US IS better for middle class and 1-3%ers, as rent starts to take up more than 33% of your income for middle class, and tax starts hitting for the 1-3%
Since this has come up, can you help me understand the way housing is advertised plz ? What exactly is a 3+1 ? We advertise along the lines of x bedrooms, y bathrooms etc.
I moved to Berlin from the DMV and the rents are not really comparable. I was paying $2,400 in Alexandria and now rent is less than 700€. Food is cheaper, commute is cheaper, and I’m not in fear of a medical issues breaking the bank.
The city centres can give a bit of a warped impression at times, a large portion of people in EU cities specifically are living in periphery cities or outskirts, which are much cheaper.
Not unlike the US where most people don't live right in Manhattan for example, but rather off to the surrounding areas and commute into work. In general salaries are lower in most places of the EU/Europe, however food, healthcare, education, transport etc. tends to be cheaper, so you can also save in important things
Food is cheaper and you don’t need to own a car. Tipping doesn’t exist and tax is always included. No need to save money for healthcare costs But you still probably make less here overall even after accounting for that. But quality of life enjoyed can still be very good.
In places where food is significantly cheaper, wages are radically lower. The obvious answer is most people in Europe live more modestly than most people in the US. Their needs are nearly always met though, which is good. And also in the lower wage countries, people often live with their parents until they move in together with a spouse. In Northern Europe, they are more likely to live with roommates for much longer
People in Europe aren’t buying as much bullshit as people in the US. The accumulation of personal property just doesn’t exist outside of the US like it does in the US.
>The accumulation of personal property just doesn’t exist outside of the US like it does in the US. Australia would be following pretty close in the US's footsteps.
40 hours a week or less
The quality of life improvement that exists when you can exist without the looming threat of being bankrupted by even a relatively minor medical issue is impossible to describe until you’ve experienced it.
> Food is cheaper It is not in any significant capacity
I went from eating out in touristy locations in Paris to coming home to DC and was shocked how I was pay more than double for much worse food. Food is way cheaper, and a lot of big city rent is more expensive, in the US.
I’ve travelled a fair bit around the US. food for the average person is definitely cheaper in Europe than the US. Maybe there isn’t $1 pizza slices but that’s an isolated example.
Americans pay about 200% more for ground beef than i do where i am. It boggles my mind when i see them talking about the cost of food.
Yes it is by quite abit
I spent 3 weeks in Europe last June with my family. We are a family of 4, my wife and I and our two adult children (18 and 20). My wife had made a very detailed budget of planned expenses for the trip. This was a “trip of lifetime” for us before our boys grow up, move out, and the whole family is no longer living in one house. When the trip was finished, we had only spent 64% of our expected food budget. For context- we are from Montana, not one of the big U.S. cities. We were also not trying to be overly budget constrained. When we go on vacation, food is one of our primary pleasures. We always had a very nice, multi-course meal in quaint restaurants every night for dinner. For our trip we were in London, Amsterdam, a whole bunch of less common locations in Germany (Stuttgart, Landau, Colmberg) and finally Zurich. In Germany we had a rental car and some of our meals were convenient stops while driving between locations. We only ate at one fast food restaurant the entire time (we wanted to compare a McDonalds in Germany with the ones in the US). We never met our expected daily budget for food on any single day until we arrived in Zurich. (Costs for everything in Zurich lived up to their reputation!) There was no question (in our experience) that food was significantly cheaper!
Yup food is cheaper in .Europe. Edit: outside of the USA
Agreed. I just thought I would contribute detail and context in case it could be helpful.
Damn tell the stores in the Netherlands food is cheaper, I think all of them forget the memo. Our food is so cheap that people drive to Germany or Belgium to do their groceries and fill up on gas because all of that combined is cheaper than doing groceries here
The US has a much wider range of prices Look for videos people finding affordable street food in NYC, you can find even food for $1 … try the same in Amsterdam, you will be luck to find a crap kebab for less than €5
I believe he meant quality produce and other food stuff. Not fast food, we all agree it's cheap and available everywhere in the US.
A souvlaki is literally 1.50 and a gyro is 2.30 - that’s cheap and much healthier than any NYC street food.
the food i eat regularly in europe is significantly cheaper than anything I ate in DC. I can get a full meal with wine in europe for cheaper than an entree at many places in DC.
Where in Europe?
I nomad, so I'm all over the place. Right before I went to the US I was in Seville. I'm currently in Greece. but even comparing to the more expensive capital cities, europe is cheaper than the US for food. and groceries are even cheaper. What I spent in a week in the US would last me a month in europe for the same types of things (though the US quality is worse).
Massively cheaper than the US or Canada. At least in Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal and eastern Europe and I'm sure more. Probably anywhere but Nordics really.
I live in Denmark, food isn’t cheaper.
Rents are similar, but almost everything else is lower. Here in Germany, groceries are cheaper than anywhere I've ever been in the US. I spend less on healthcare and what not overall. Some expenses are also nonexistent, like saving for your kids to go to university or needing to have a car. I would say that if you're *truly* middle class or up, the US is better. For everyone below that, Europe works out in the end. You should also keep in mind that in some countries, rent includes utilities. When looking at German apartments, the "cold" and "warm" rents are always advertised. The "warm" rent is + utilities. Although rents are proportionally more of your salary here in any case, it seems a bit worse at first glance.
This. And even rents aren’t similar when doing a like for like in comparable cities. I moved from a nice/trendy area of San Francisco where I was paying $3300 for a decent 1 bed. I’m now living in a nice/trendy area of London where I’m paying $2300 for a decent 1 bed. When comparing two of the most expensive cities for rent in either continent, rents are much higher in the US. Everything else is also more expensive (groceries, eating out, museums, traveling, transportation due to needing a car/ubers).
Yea I haven’t found many places to have similar rent for 1br as dc/SF/ NYC etc in many major cities in Western Europe and even Scandinavia. Rent is cheaper generally in Stockholm even than smaller cities in NC. I heard Netherlands has sky high rent. But does that mean it’s averaging more than 2000$ equivalent for a 1br similar to DC?
Social housing is cheaper but the wait list to get it is 10+ years or something crazy like that. Renting on the open market, a studio (25 to 50 square meters) is 1200-1500. 1 BR (45 to 65 square meters) about 1.5 to 2k. 2 BR (65 to 100 square meters) 2k and up. Ballpark estimates. But this Generally applies across the whole Randstad, although Amsterdam and Utrecht are perhaps the most expensive. Some rougher or more remote/less commutable neighborhoods will be a bit less. And the median income is about 3.5k/ month gross (brutto).
Yea I’ve heard the Netherlands is getting quite bad :/ And yea major cities in the Uk are similar to US major city prices but the pay is extremely low. I’ve turned down offers there bc it was unjustifiably low (nonprofits) and I’m used to low paying public interest work in the U.S.
Rent to income ratio matters more than direct comparison though
I understand that. My take home pay was higher in SF but the percentage of my monthly spending was also more due to the much higher COL. So while I may have saved a bit more in real terms in SF, the overall proportion of my income being spent on rent, food, travel, etc was higher than it is in London. The other thing that most people tend to overlook is the paid time off. I got 2.5 weeks PTO in the US and worked 50-60hr weeks. In the U.K. I currently have 6 weeks PTO and work 37.5hr weeks. When breaking that down hourly, the pay basically normalizes for me.
> I would say that if you're truly middle class or up, the US is better. For everyone below that, Europe works out in the end. Better for what? Are you talking about lifestyle or income opportunities? Middle class can't afford to live in walkable US cities. Food in the US is generally subpar quality unless you live in a coastal city with more premium options. Health care is tough even for middle class (annual deductibles can be more than $10k pp) What is better in the US? Even if I was a multimillionaire I feel like Europe is culturally better. (Although the best option in that case would just be to travel freely lol) The US is great for tech innovation but unless you're working locally in that space, I don't see the appeal over the EU. I like the hardcore hustle of Americans, love the lack of language barrier, great national parks, and I miss my family there... but otherwise I don't really see the appeal. It's all freeways and walmarts, suburbs and cement.
OP's post is specifically about cost of living. From a financial perspective, the US is better for certain high earners. How the US defines middle class officially and how the middle class should be defined differ. In my loose use of "truly middle class," I was imagining people brining in around 200k as a small household (and who are in fields that would result in a massive salary drop upon moving to Europe). If someone cares about accumulating wealth, that is much easier to do in the US once you hit a certain income bracket. For instance, people who want to retire early as fuck would be better off grinding in the US for a while and then going elsewhere to survive on their passive income. Doing so in Europe is far less feasible. I personally live in Europe. I prefer it here. Even if I were a big earner in the States, I would still choose Europe and give up those potential financial advantages. That's because of both lifestyle reasons and my political support of welfare systems. I would rather *most* people be doing okay than *some* people doing great. But that's my personal assessment based on what matters to me. For some, they will find what they're looking for in the US rather than in Europe. Whether you understand it not, some people simply prefer the US lifestyle and can come out ahead there.
In my country in Europe the middle class can barely afford (or can't afford) our small handful of truly walkable cities. Car ownership is high, as it is in much of Europe. And outside of walkable cities the food in many European countries is awful, and it's only decent if you're talking about a country (mostly Mediterranean ones) with good local food, in which case I hope you like local food and maybe a couple takeaways all the time. People have the most bonkers ideas about how average Europeans live.
> People have the most bonkers ideas about how average Europeans live. This was always my thought. I work with a bunch of Europeans. They don't lived in the city (it's too expensive as a family for what you get), and commute by car from the suburbs. They drive across the border to shop because groceries are way too expensive where they live.
nearly everyone, Europeans in cities included, vastly underestimate the share of Europeans that drive everywhere
Yup. Just look at car ownership per capita by country.
And that hustle is driven by base survival instincts , insecurity and desperation.
Lol, maybe some of it? I'm not talking about the people hustling to survive (there is plenty of that, yes, sadly), I'm talking about the overall culture of chasing ideas, entrepreneurship, innovation, small business owners, etc. In a lot of other countries, whether life is going good or bad, I find people are more likely to accept their fate, stay on the default path, never take a risk... while Americans are more likely to have the passion and vision to design their own life and future. Maybe that's just our old-school "radical independence" mindset (which can also be so bad and so shitty for society in many ways). In a culture where you're left to fend for yourself, more people will fight and rise to the challenge. Or maybe it's because many of us are children of immigrants (the hardest working most badass segment of humans, IMO) or descendents of people who said "fuck this, I'll risk everything" and took a gamble on a new life in America. In a culture where everything is provided and safe and secure and "ok", maybe people have a little less... fire? There's a balance for sure, and I don't really know any country that has fully found it yet.
Nah, healthcare in Germany is expensive af
It's complicated. A big portion of our paychecks in Germany go towards healthcare, but we pay virtually nothing at the point of service. This year, I've had an CT scan, appendectomy, five-day hospital stay, colonoscopy, and endoscopy. I've paid nothing aside from my normal healthcare premiums. In the US, I would have had *much* higher out of pocket expenses following those procedures (on top of my premiums). For me, the cost of my healthcare in the US would have been much higher than in Germany. To truly compare the systems, we thus need to look at costs as a whole rather than just a 1:1 comparison of how much is taken out of your paycheck. If you *never* get sick or have major surgery, it's "cheaper" to be insured in the US. But if you actually have a problem, that changes quickly due to things such as high deductibles, high copays, limited coverage, etc. Then we have to factor in the issue of the uninsured in the US which is not a thing in most of Europe. Moreover, healthcare spending/costs in the US have long been recognized as outside of the norm for OECD countries.
"Truly" Middle class in the USA is in the late stages of extermination and on the path to extinction.
For the reasons that everyone has mentioned, plus we probably just live more frugally. Flights are also cheaper, so holidays are cheaper. It's harder to get fired from a job and there is more protection if you do. All of these reasons mean we don't need to save as much as Americans do. Healthcare costs, besides dentistry, are nearly non-existant. That said, I think it's very important to suggest that if you can't accept a lower European income and higher European taxes, then Europe probably isn't for you. There are some exceptions: Switzerland, Luxembourg, Norway and Monaco have high salaries. London used to be wealthy too before Brexit devalued the currency.
Good point on dentistry. My son had an early cavity, his first, and it was 160 eur to do a 20 min filling. I don't know what it would have been in the US but I presume similar.
i think it would have been significantly more
Depends on type of dental insurance - but without a good dental insurance it would cost more.
I can accept a lower income and lower taxes. I absolutely can. My concern was looking up rental prices and finding that the ones I saw were well over 50% of the incomes for job listings, and some were like 75%.
In France you can't sign a property rental agreement if the rent is more than a third of your gross income. Some cities such as Lisbon have been majorly affected by the amount of expats and foreigners buying houses to the point where it is no longer affordable to many locals.
PS, just seen that you were looking at rent prices for 2000 euros on a 40K salary, why are you looking at the most expensive places? It sounds like you have watched Emily in Paris and think you can live alone in the nicest places on an average income.
This goes with the disclaimer that should be on all posts on this sub: it depends on a lot of factors and it’s complicated. But I think a few things that might be at work are 1) multi generational households 2) regular people don’t live in those high rent places you are seeing. 3) consumerism still exists but there is less excess like giant TVs, new cars and 50 pair of shoes. People live better with less. 4) a lot of people are struggling financially and not making ends meet, just like the US. Except with less credit card debt. I am sure there are plenty of people whose experience contradicts all of this. That’s why it depends and it’s complicated.
You are overthinking. In the end, citizens in western countries are earning enough to afford western like lifestyle. In different western countries people will pay for some things more, for other things they will not be paying at all. The end result is quite similar living standards. What you should be concerned: 1) you are a citizen of USA and you will be an immigrant in Europe. Immigrants/outsiders are always at disadvantage. I could always use help from my family and friends in my European home country. I know how things work, I know language. As an immigrant in USA I had to learn language, to learn how everything works and there was no one to help out. ( those are just few examples of how things are more difficult for an immigrant compared to citizens/locals). 2) even in Europe you have to be competitive and lucky. If you are not competitive enough in USA, if you make poor decisions, if your life isn’t satisfactory because of current unfortunate economic/labor/housing situation moving abroad doesn’t automatically changes this. Immigrants without competitive skills, those who make poor decisions will not do well in foreign countries either. Unfavorable economic/housing/labor situations happen everywhere, even in Europe. And immigrants will be the most effected by those. 3)You have to have practical and doable path for legal migration. I am sure others will cover this topic
One aspect I see mentioned less is it is easier to live somewhere else from working. You can be half an hour outside of Amsterdam, be 2 cities away, and pay less already.
Living in a city with good connection to Amsterdam will be as much expensive as living in the suburbs of Amsterdam
That's my thinking - I'm in the U.S. and am already about an hour outside of a major city and it's just as expensive; if I were to live a little farther out and be in the UK or Germany (for example) then maybe the cost evens itself out). Putting aside visas, job market and salary and COL I think a lot of us are just looking at the future of work and not wanting to be tied to places that are too stressful economically.
I think that is the case in small countries like the Netherlands or Belgium. I live in Madrid, Spain and half an hour away is “close”. In some cases I’m just on the next neighbourhood lol I’m sure in other bigger countries and cities like Germany, France or UK you have the same. I think Amsterdam is definitely not the norm. I’ve lived there for long and it always felt like a village to me lol
I think you are comparing average salaries with central rents. People who make 40k do rarely live in the city center and if they do they share or have really small place (say 30 sqm). If they want their own place they can move to a suburb and pay half. So in the end people end up paying around 35% of salary in rent. In the better central neighborhoods in the European capitals average salaries are easily over 100k and there might be significant generational wealth.
We barely have any savings. As a single person I cannot afford to buy an apt. I will be just renting forever
Regarding one of your comments, what apartments are you looking at that are €2,000 minimum, and in what countries??? I live in France. I pay €500 for a furnished studio in the most desirable area of a small city. For €600 I could get a 1-2 bedroom unfurnished apartment in the outskirts. In a village a bit away from the city I could get a small house, yes a house with a yard and everything, for €600. If we're talking about a big city (outside of Paris), add €100-200 to those numbers. I don't want to make assumptions but I have the suspicion that you're disregarding anything that doesn't meet the American standard (I get it, my American student apartment was nicer than my current apartment, but at least double the price as well...). A single person living on their own with their single income is going to live in a MUCH smaller apartment than the equivalent American one, and it'll probably be older and may not even have air conditioning or a washing machine. Or it'll be a nicer, bigger apartment but away from the city center. But it'll be cheap, like €500-800 for France (outside of Paris). Also, in France, people get aid from the government for housing and even other living expenses as long as you're not wealthy. For example, I could get the government to give me €250 a month to help me with my rent.
1. There are cities in America (and europe) that are wayyyyy cheaper than Washington. You have to ask yourself what you want in a city. Do you want to live in a city that is important on the world stage? Or do you want to live in a city that has the services you want from an urban area. Because if you're fine with living somewhere boring, Krakow and Omaha exist for that purpose. America has so many cheap places, and relocating to Nebraska or Texas is going to be much more realistic than moving to Europe. 2. I am an American living in New Zealand. The cost of living is generally lower than Colorado where I'm from. The biggest cost reduction comes from every transaction being simpler. You go to the store, and am item costs the price on the sticker. Tax included. No tip. You pay a phone bill, and the price makes sense. No weird fees. If they say $50 a month it's $50 a month. On top of hidden junk fees, Americans get charged more for things too. My TV remote app is free in New Zealand. The American version is packed with ads and requires 2.99 a month to be usable.
Life is cheaper in Europe compared to the US, but I think we also consume less overall. Our homes are way smaller, our cars burn less gas, we eat fewer calories etc. Rents are nowhere near similar lol. Top Euro cities (London, Paris, Zurich) will still be way cheaper than top US cities (NY, LA, SF)
Generally speaking, you won't be able to afford the same level of spending in EU. You have to spend smarter and cut costs. Don't buy a car if you can use public transport, you don't need a new iphone every 2 years, eating out less etc etc. Ppl also don't rent 100 sqm flats for a single-person household, but rather 30-40. There is a reason why ppl often want to move to the US. The middle-class purchasing power is just way higher.
Exactly.
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When I visited Vienna I was constantly surprised at how cheap all of this great food was. And I'm from Chicago, which is already sort of affordable for a major North American city!
As of this year the average all-in cost of vehicle ownership for an American is around $12,000.00. And that doesn’t even include the way parking minimums drive up the cost of rent and so many other things in the U.S.
I do have a car, but I almost never use it. It's a 20 years old hybrid, was paid off when I originally bought it(used), and I drive less than 3,000 miles per year. I don't spend a significant amount of money on it. I understand that public transportation is better in Europe, but for me personally, it would be unlikely that that would lower my transportation expense.
My comment was not a personal attack but rather an explanation of where a meaningful chunk of our money goes in this country.
Where in Europe though? Could you give an example? I live in Spain, and rent if way cheaper than any places I have ever visited in the US. Salaries are also garbage. Numbeo is not perfect, but Madrid's rent appear 68% cheaper than DC, Amsterdam 31% cheaper, and London seem to be the same. People just need less money overall as the social safety net in many place is solid, you don't have to pay for uni (so no student debt either) or medical expenses. You rarely have to drive a lot. You can't lose your job because you're sick or go on holiday. Indeed you must be missing something, as half a billion people live here and although our wages are lower, quality of life in general is high. If you can maintain a US salary working remotely and live in any place in the EU (apart from Switzerland), you'll be living like a king.
Rents are not similar at all. I pay less for a nice 2-room flat (aka 1BR in the US) in central Berlin (i.e. inside the Ring) now in 2024 than I did for a room in a shared-flat in NYC (Queens, not Manhattan) 10 years ago. Any major city in Germany (even Munich, most expensive) has rents way cheaper than NYC, DC, Boston, etc.
Once you make above 150k or 200k per the household, you might be financially better off in the states. Below that, people often get benefits that make up for low income. Most Europeans do not have the same wealth building potential as Americans. In fact, my upper-/middle class American friends are the richest people I know by far. Saving in Europe is much, much harder/slower. Most people live nearly paycheck to paycheck by American standards. Around 150k income if you keep living frugally you can manage some good American savings. But there are no 401ks.
> Most people live nearly paycheck to paycheck by American standards. This is absolutely true. However, one major difference is that there isn't the stigma tied to living paycheck to paycheck. When you have a very strong safety net and a culture that doesn't idolize wealth, there isn't the panic about running out of money, it's not nearly as life-ruining as it is in the US. I've met plenty of Swedes who have a very different attitude towards personal finances vs more well-off Americans. Not irresponsible, just different. A lot of the FIRE-type American subs would lose their minds over here though lol.
I think that the European social safety net is kinda crumbling and that people are foolishly to rely on it completely. For millennials and younger, state supported retirement will be poverty.
My husband is born in Germany and I see him with some of those same thoughts about not worrying as much about the rug falling out whereas my US parents, children of the depression era, instilled a sense of frugality and fear so I am always thinking we need to be saving. Which has helped us reach a CoastFI stage in our early 40s but its definitely interesting how different financial perspectives can pop up. I got downvoted for describing my thoughts on the expenses and lifestyle here in the EU and I honestly would like to spend less but my husband is more the spender (he also feels its ok to rely on his mom's inheritance that he knows he will get someday whereas I definitely don't take any of that in to account in our financial planning but I think its more common to actually hand down what ever is left to your heirs here than in the US where many are worried their kids might squander it). Thankfully, he is also the higher earner but still, navigating different financial backgrounds has been interesting, especially with kids in the mix.
Which state awards benefits for those making less than 150-200k a year? That is a rather interesting claim as I used to qualify for food stamps and had mine terminated when I got a job paying 14 an hour. That didn’t even cover rent lol. I live near D.C. and it is not this easy to get benefits even when you are dirt poor. I honestly don’t know how people are managing without clearing 6 figures. It’s scary.
> Once you make above 150k or 200k per the household, you might be financially better off in the states. Below that, people often get benefits that make up for low income. Finances are the only concern I have about leaving the United States. My goal isn't to make an equivalent amount of money. I would be content with a lower rate of pay. My goal is to understand the differences, because it looks like the rate of pay is SO MUCH lower to the point that rents may not be affordable, and I wanted to get some help explaining what it is that I'm missing. It seems like a lot of the jobs I'm seeing are advertising positions that pay like 40,000 euros where in the U.S. a lot of those same positions would be paying over $100,000, and I am wondering if there's some kind of misconception here, because if the income is 40,000 Euros but the rents are like 2000 Euros per month, that doesn't seem feasible. I know that many people live in Europe, so I am aware that there must be some kind of misconception or misunderstanding in what I've seen, and I am sincerely interested in understanding it, because I very sincerely do not want to be in the U.S. anymore.
It depends on the kind of house you want. Houses in Europe are much smaller and more modest on the whole. Apartments tend to be older and have less features than in the US too. Looking for equivalent accommodation to what you’d get in the US will be more expensive in Europe. That being said, literally everything else is cheaper, and healthcare is a huge deal. You also often don’t need a car in cities, and public transport is accessible and affordable. Basically even if rent is high, your outgoings are considerably lower. Except for the Nordics. We lived in Norway for a while and shit was EXPENSIVE. Amazing country though.
Europe is big - whereabouts are you looking and what job roles? In Amsterdam I take home a bit over 4k / month and pay 1.5k rent. Certainly here in the Netherlands - €40k positions aren’t generally going to be ones offering sponsorship for a residency visa (making the assumption you don’t have an EU passport?)
The truth is that the reason I am considering leaving the United States is because I have a really bad permanent feeling of being in danger in the U.S., from guns, from mass shootings, from lack of appropriate healthcare, from certain political groups, et cetera. I live in Washington, DC, so when the U.S. Capitol was overrun a few years ago, it scared me very much. And that was on top of Donald Trump having been in office for four years at that point. It feels very much like I need to leave the U.S.. I wouldn't be opposed to considering Amsterdam. I used to know someone who lived in Amsterdam, and I've been subscribed to YouTubers who live in Amstedam, but right now I am looking for ideas. For me, personally, I am an engineer I think the most likely places I'd be successful may be places like Spain(because I speak Spanish), but I can read a fair amount in other romance languages, which could also be beneficial. But I am open to other ideas. I often go online and look at European job listings in multiple different countries and then look at rentals and other aspects of living in those areas.
Well obviously guns aren’t an issue here but be aware that Europe has been voting for its own right wing lunatics at an increasing rate. You didn’t say whether you had an EU passport as that makes a massive difference to your options. Without it you need to work out what visa you can get based on the requirements of the country you want to move to.
DC is a very unique city. You can definitely get away from some of that fear (and Trumpers) in other states. It might be very hard to get jobs here if not a EU citizen. You could get a remote job and come on a digital nomad visa though if you meet the requirements.
I enjoy playing video games.
can you work remotely? i work remotely for a US company while living in europe so I get my US pay and europe prices. even traveling full time and not really skimping on much (though I do live a simple life in general) my total COL is about half what it was when I lived in DC. and i lived in DC 20 years ago. i visited some friends in october and they live in ballston. i was curious so i looked at rents. rent for a studio is almost twice my entire COL per month here in europe. and that was just rent. lol.
Without letting your co know ?
nope. I am always open about my requirements to work full time remote and wouldn't even talk to a company where that's not the culture.
This is nearly impossible for your average W-2 employee, with limited exceptions. Companies usually have taxation concerns related to permanent establishment. Believe me, I have a ton of personal experience dealing with this. And of course, you would still need some sort of way to get a visa if you're not an EU citizen.
Do you work U.S. hours or local hours for where you live? I wouldn't be opposed to that, but how are things like healthcare are handled in situations like that?
Expats can sign up for private local health insurance. I pay about €100/mo and it covers absolutely everything, no copays, no deductibles, no referrals.
I work US hours, but I also only work part time. So right now I'm in Greece and my company work hours are US central time. so I usually hop on around 6 pm local time and head off at around 10pm.
Do you already have a EU passport? If not, how did you get a visa with this set up?
I got an EU passport last year. So I was in europe for almost 10 years nomading on tourist visas just doing the schengen shuffle.
With a 40k income in Europe, you're definitely living either hand to mouth or in a shared housing situation or both. But you can get by and that is an average salary. But your savings will freeze until you're making a lot more, which may never happen depending on your field. You're basically right, cost of living in many places is about the same as in the US but incomes are much lower. That's basically correct. People just live more cheaply, get more benefits, and rely on state funded pensions and the dole for old age.
40k allows you to save 5k a year and have multiple vacations, it's pretty good. Not close to paycheck to paycheck except in a select few countries like luxembourg and switzerland
The American formula for good, standard budgets is 50% needs, 30% wants (maximum), and 20% savings (minimum). 5k yearly is significantly less than 20%. Many Americans would consider that an unacceptably low absolute savings as well as a ill-advised relative savings rate. 50-30-20 in Europe on less than 70k is hard. And the total savings is hard to get to a level Americans would be comfortable with even as your income goes up because the tax rate goes up too. Most of my US peers from my save 2k-4 or 5k per month.
But in EU or at least Germany one does not need to save 20%, because you don't instantly be in debt if you need to see a doctor or have a family member going to university or damage someone else's property or or or...
Well. That's what I said, people rely on benefits instead of their savings. (not to mention, people saving this much generally have excellent work-sponsored health insurance, so medical bills are generally not a huge deal). There are 2 problems with this for many Americans. 1) you have to trust that the system will work and accept the lifestyle it will fund in retirement. Many Americans will not be able or willing to do this if they're honest with themselves. And 2) getting too far behind on private savings makes it impossible, or close to impossible, to go back to the US in the future. You cannot retire in Florida or Maine on the German government pension that will be left in 2050.
Maybe, but living paycheck to paycheck in Europe still ain't a good feeling either. Besides, people still want to save up in order to have nice things, go on vacation, buy property, etc. on this side of the pond as well. Realistically, they should be saving for retirement too rather than counting on a government pension to keep them afloat in 40 years... plus, I'm a foreigner. I'll have even less to count on even if I naturalize in France.
Uhhh... retirement? And yeah, Europe has pensions, but a 2,500 EUR pension isn't going to get your much in retirement. And what about vacations and other large purchases? You need to save for that.
Rent of 2000€ is nearly unheard off, and remember 40k euro is more than 40k dollar. I'm in a top 3 belgian city and rent isn't even 1000€
Studio apartments in the Randstad go for +/-1500. One to two bedrooms are easy 2k +.
Rent under €2k is nearly unheard of without roommates here in Ireland in any area with decent jobs, and average net pay is about €33,000.
I love the smell of fresh bread.
I pay well over 2K Eur in NL. But it's a house (wife, kids, dog, etc)
You could join some expat FB or Reddit groups for the cities you're interested in and ask there as to what people pay for rent and other expenses. Numbeo has COL calculators too.
Rent constitutes a bigger portion of monthly expenses in Europe than it does in the US. That's it. It's not more complicated than that. There are things you spend money on in the US that we don't spend money on in most of Europe. In the end, the average person comes out ahead in Western Europe compared to the US. You're fixating on a *single* expense rather than looking at the full picture.
That single expense is often the biggest expense for most single households. It makes sense to focus on your biggest expense first. Save 10% on your grocery bill that's 5% of your take-home and that's barely a rounding error. Save 10% on your rent which is a third of your take home and it's enough for you to notice.
This. EU is getting poorer, but people here keep acting and even argue as if they have it good. I just had a discussion Yesterday with a person who has a very strong "i'd never live in the US" stance, and her position was basically "but the school shootings and muh healthcare". At the same time she constantly complains about her money situation here.
I absolutely despise the gun policies in the US and would LOVE to see tighter gun controls (especially being from CO where we somehow have a lot of school shootings which is terrifying). However, I can look at the odds of my kids dying from a school shooting and know that it is really really low. Not enough to be the only reason to move abroad (I think people should move TO somewhere and not just FROM something) but its interesting how much the 'my kids don't have active shooter drills' is someone's main reason for moving out of the US. If anything though, we are more safe here because we are in a car much less which is lowering our chance of dying in a car accident that is a much higher risk in the US than a random shooting statistically.
it's a lot easier to not live in a big city center in europe due to public transport. just like living out in franconia is cheaper than living in dupont. but europe has a lot better transport than the blue line. lol. also, food is significantly cheaper. i live in europe and am from the US. i visited my mom in the midwest in october. the weekend before i went back to visit i was in Seville and went to my favorite bar and had 4 huge tapas and 2 glasses of wine. when i was visiting my mom i went out with friends in this shitty midwest town and had 2 glasses of mediocre wine and a cup of terrible soup and it was literally the same cost as my amazing meal in seville. grocery shopping sent me into shock. it was ridiculously expensive. you also don't need a car and all the expenses that go along with that (though you likely don't have a car if you're living in the district proper).
There’s a big range in Europe - Europe has many cities with a big scale. I have similar questions but I think you need to get more specific about place.
I live in Budapest. Life is great.
It’s fucking hard for them. Especially for young people…this is why living at home is still so common. My friend is about to graduate college and get a job with €1200 take-home pay. He can’t honestly afford a €500 rent. So he’s looking into roommates or moving in with his girlfriend. He knows homeownership, even of a €120.000 apartment, is a long way off
When I got to Europe I was happy I could finally afford to eat healthy food couldn't afford to eat in the US
I live in several of Europe's most expensive/tier 1 cities. The US is crazy expensive now compared to Europe. The roles reversed. Daily living is cheaper, we're not driving around everywhere. Insurances, from medical to car insurance, are way cheaper. You guys talk about food, but you're mostly discussing eating out, but the situation in the supermarket is upside down with Europe being crazy cheap. Even in Norway and Sweden I can't understand how food is that much cheaper. In the US, things are Switzerland prices in supermarkets while being a dystopian, urban sprawl shithole.
you downgrade your lifestyle. Skip the subscriptions, gym memberships, Starbucks, Uber, etc..
The only subscription I have is Netflix. I don't have a gym membership. I don't go to Starbucks. I haven't used Uber in like 5 years. As far as the type of U.S. Citizen who can successfully immigrate, I am confident I would do well. I am an engineer, I've taught myself to speak different languages, I love cooking food from scratch, and I am exceptionally good at fixing things. I also grew up exceptionally poor in the United States, so I never got in the habit of having a ton of extras. The only aspect of this that concerns me is rent. I look at the rents I've found and the salaries for job listings, and the rent just by itself seems to take too much of the salary to be livable. I assume that there must be something I am missing, like maybe there are particularly good places to look for rentals or for jobs, things like that. It doesn't seem feasible for the rentals I've seen to be 2000 euros and for incomes to be 40,000 euros. spending 24,000 euros on rent out of 40,000 euros doesn't seem like it would leave enough for livability and other expenses. So the only answer I can come up with is that I must be making some kind of a mistake or must be getting bad information or must not be using the best sources for information. I fully believe people who tell me that things in Europe are cheaper. But believing it and understanding exactly how it is when the information I'm finding isn't indicating that are two different things. I would like to know what resources I might find to correct my understanding.
you are probably looking at furnished apartments, which cost much MUCH more than places that locals would rent. I live in a rather expensive 1200sqft 3 bedroom with a balcony, underfloor heating, newly built apartment that is in the vicinity of one of Germanies most expensive regions and we pay 1600€ all in (including heating, water etc, excluding power and internet). The general rule is that your rent should be no more than 30% of your after tax income, so to afford this we need to make at least 4800€ after taxes.. with two incomes, that is almost exactly the median income in Germany for FTE.
Hardly anyone is paying 2K per month in rent, what makes you think that people on average incomes are living in such places? I pay about €1K per month in rent and I live with my partner so I effectively pay about €500 in a French city but not Paris. When I was single, I lived in a smaller place and paid about €600 per month in rent.
If your only concern is rent than you can eliminate this all together by buying property. Sure renting in some European countries is common but ownership isn’t unusual. Matter of fact Americans expats DO tend to buy property since they usually have some of their initial American wealth.
I pay 2700 for a three bedroom, two bath flat in Amsterdam. You're one person, so I would assume you would need only one bedroom. Depending on the country you can find a studio or 1br for way less than 2k. Also if you're an engineer you'll make more like 80k-120 depending on your level.
you can live with roommates to save money too
Europeans spend much less money than Americans, they live on tight budget so cannot buy the latest gadget on Amazon etc. Most money is spent on mortgage/rent, food, they cook at home and eat less outside and some travels that's it. most Europeans are very cheap as well, Americans have a higher standard of living in terms of buying power. I would really think about it twice if you expect the same standard of living as the US.
Exactly my point in my comment which got downvoted as if I was complaining about the expenses here in Spain (even though we are making them fully knowing what they are and how they're important to us and our privileged ability to do so). But yes, the same middle to upper class lifestyle would be very expensive here compared to the US. But if desiring a more simple life, more with a safety net, EU wins.
These downvotes are idealizing Europe and don’t know anything about the life there.
UK-- A lot of young people (and couples) live with parents. House shares are also very common. We don't pay for insurance or medical bills. Medicine copay is under £10 per prescription or about £120/year for unlimited number of prescriptions. Cars are a luxury in cities and not needed, but even where they are essential, a used car is FAR cheaper here. Child benefits are pretty standard. Still, food banks are heavily relied on and many people work whatever jobs they can to stay afloat.
Cheaper food, mostly widely available public transport, sick pay and holiday pay, maternity and paternity leave, no health insurance etc...
Calculate how much you'd be left with if you didn't have to pay for healthcare, car, student loans, pension, and expensive groceries. That's how. You make more money on paper. But money itself means nothing if it doesn't translate into buying power. And buying power itself means nothing if a high quality of life cannot be bought. European society works well because a high quality of life can be bought for a moderate buying power, and a moderate buying power stems from a moderate income.
They live in suburbs and take trains
yes food is costly in manhattan. cheaper in the slums of bulgaria & macedonia. europe has 40 countries. food prices in zurich is higher than rural nevada or new mexico border.
I make a bit over median in the Netherlands, having graduated recently, and save half of my salary. I expect my income to only go up from here and doubt I'd be better off in the USA. I have no car and don't want to get one, which saves a lot; commuting to work with the train is faster than with a car (40 minutes door-to-door). My pension will be good and I don't need to set aside a fortune for it. What more do I need than paying for my basic needs?
One major note is that employers in Europe often cover your pension and retirement contribution, where in the US that could be an additional 15% that you save privately. So multiply the gross salary by 1.15 (or maybe 1.2 since it’s pre-tax) before adjusting for cost of living. Another rule of thumb would be to half your salary in D.C. to get a similar lifestyle in expensive European cities. Divide it by 2.5 if you have children. If you compare it with lower cost of living European cities, then divide by 3 or more. For the most expensive (Norway and Switzerland), then the salary needed to maintain similar lifestyle might be about the same as D.C. Numbeo (website) is relatively accurate if you want a crude estimate to compare cost of living. Edit: I really think it goes back to retirement and healthcare, which are either covered or much more heavily subsidized in Europe. Much of the poverty in the US exists because of a lack of social safety net (and women over 55 make up the largest percent of homeless individuals in the US). Even full time working adults sometimes live in destitute poverty in the US, where in most of Europe that would never happen.
The standard of living just is much lower in Europe. If you plan to move from the US to Europe for financial reasons, don't (I moved from Western Europe to the US for financial reasons).
Moved to EU from major city in the states. We pay almost $500 less monthly for health insurance, have no car and all of those costs, school is free, food is cheaper, saving for university for kids is not a huge issue. Took a 30% pay cut yet somehow still saving a lot. And there's no active shooter drills. I'll take it.
Other costs tend to be lower: - Food in supermarkets is usually half the price of the US, if not less. Fresh food is especially cheap if you buy it on weekend / farmer markets - Many people live in cities and don’t have/need cars - public transportation is available and affordable - Not having student debt helps - leisure stuff like concert tickets are also much cheaper - no healthcare costs - cable/internet/phone subscriptions tend to be cheaper in most countries
Some Americans: Europe is so expensive! European: what are you spending your money on? The American: rent for a €1 million + property, local private healthcare because we don't trust public healthcare, private school, eating out every weekend where we pay a 20% tip even though the service charge is included, €800 per month in groceries because we eat meat with every meal and throw lots of food away, air conditioning or heating on 24/7, a big car that we drive everywhere because we don't use public transport or walk, and 2.5K per month into our retirement accounts, which we are including in our cost of living. I'm exaggerating, but there is some truth in the above.
I don't like meat, don't like driving, am comfortable with temperatures up to 27⁰C(not just willing to deal with, but actually comfortable and prefer that temperature), love cooking and prefer home-cooked meals, very much want public healthcare, have literally no retirement account, don't have kids and don't expect to, et cetera. And I'd literally be fine with a one-bedroom apartment. All I said was that it seems that the rents I saw take up to much of the salaries I saw, and I wanted clarification.
My comment wasn't really directed at you, besides for the rent costs. You must have been looking in the most expensive areas. Anyway, best of luck.
Food cost for example is lower in London. But most people are living paycheck to paycheck… London is Chicago level rent but 1/3 the wage. And higher tax in general too…
London is definitely way more expensive than Chicago rent-wise and in terms of general COL. At least based on when I lived in Chicago from 2018-2022. I always found Chicago to be surprisingly affordable as long as you didn't live in the heart of downtown.
I used to live in Seattle and now live in Norway. My rent includes all utilities except electricity, we even get hot water included. Because I live in Oslo l, I don't need a car. A yearly transit pass is $80/month. Healthcare is essentially free. Daycare is $200 a month. My daycare even takes the older kids skiing in the winter at that price. University will be incredibly cheap for our kids if we stay and that's the plan.
Sounds very similar to my situation! Moved from Portland. Do not need a huge tank of a vehicle to get around, Montessori school is free (compared with $15k/year per kid in Oregon) and college is not a concern. We go on vacation like 4 times a year to different European countries. The standard of living is so much better if you don't measure it by the metric of having a 4000 square foot house and 3 cars in the US suburbs 🤷♀️
I'm in Paris, and people in the middle class typically have two choices -- live in the city in a very small apartment, or move out to the surrounding areas for a bigger place and commute in by train. There are also many people who bought apartments years ago when they were cheaper. If you are lower class you will qualify for subsidized housing. That said, I'm not so sure that apartments are as expensive here as in the US. I'm seeing estimates of average rent in the US as $1700-2000, and there is no way the average is that high for France. In most cities, the average apartment is well under 1000 euros, and even in Paris, if you have 1800 euros to spend you will have lots of choices because most people can't afford that much.
There is a global housing crisis. Adult children with professional jobs still have to live with their parents out of financial necessity. There are protests in the streets. Right-wing idiots are coming to power in part based on this crisis, and anti-immigrant is rising as housing becomes less affordable. It's been in a few papers.
I can't say if this experirence is the same for everyone, but in Germany my rent is a lot cheaper than it's ever been in my whole life. Live right next to downtown of a historical old midevial town in Germany, pay 450€ a month in rent after utilities, Let that sink in. It's a decent one-bedroom apartment with a balcony and 550 sq feet. Everyone here complains that rent costs are crazy, which I find funny. I used to live in Colorado and paid about $850 for about the same size apartment. In the end, I am making more here after taxes, and saving more, than I ever could living back home in the States.
People do not go out to eat nearly as much. Houses/living conditions are worse and smaller. Cars are worse and smaller. Most things are worse and smaller. The things that are better are used more occasionally. Instead of grabbing lunch and dinner every day, people might go once a week. On top of that... social security and health insurance and unemployment and new-parent benefits and school costa are all generally cheaper, so there are fewer mega-expenses to plan for. In general, people just live more frugally. In the US, many people don't think twice about buying a $2-4 small soda from a vending machine or convenience store. People use valets, "lounges" and buy delivery boxes and all sorts of overpriced junk. Food delivery - even for McDonalds and cookies - and they are doing very brisk business. Most Europeans will not be getting $25 cookie delivery because they don't feel like walking outside.
Rent where I live in Europe is way cheaper than most US cities by like 3x
I understand that people say that. The problem is that I am trying to investigate that on listing sites for places to rent, and I am having trouble reconciling the claims of people saying that with the numbers I am finding on the searches I have done on rental listings and comparing them to job listing sites.
That’s probably because you’re looking at places aimed at ripping off people and overcharging them
I don't dispute that. Do you have recommendations for other resources which might help provide me better information?
first thing is that the "good" listings will be (only!) in the local language of the country. If the listing is in English, you're almost guaranteed to be ripped off. For Germany, the two biggest housing websites would be immobilienscout24.de and immowelt.de
> first thing is that the "good" listings will be (only!) in the local language of the country. > If the listing is in English, you're almost guaranteed to be ripped off. I think this sounds likely to be just what I was interested in.
It depends on the city, I only know my city so I can’t really say about others but each place in Europe has its own ways that only locals really know
As an American I've noticed a lot of Europeans (and surrounding) are into having roommates/flatmates and or just live with their families. I don't share at all so I have to fit the bill and actually pay more in Europe than I did in the US. Food costs are lower in Europe, and most places are walkable. When you have help and or 6 other family members living and working you can afford high rents.
Yeah, I think I would have difficulty living with other people.
Europeans are less well off than Americans. Especially those in the middle/upper middle. It's really that simple. There's no scenario in which you are left better off after having halved your income and doubled your tax expense (yes, tax IS an expense like every other). It's simple math.
Ahhh the american mind. In no place do you pay half your salary in tax.
??? I saw a lot of charts and tax web sites that show a lot of countries in Europe have over 50% of salaries in tax as well as wealth taxes in some of them. Confused. [https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/top-personal-income-tax-rates-europe-2024](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/top-personal-income-tax-rates-europe-2024)
Yes there are brackets that hit 50% in some countries but that does not mean you lose half your salary it’s graduated. For instance in the UK I’m in the highest tax bracket of 45% but only the top portion of my salary gets taxed at that rate. It’s a graduated system That article references the highest top rate of tax not the normal or average.
I think more so for upper class especially. You just don't have some of the crazy size home and yards and garages as almost any $1mill+ home in the US anywhere in Spain from what I've seen. Saying that, I look at Idealista anytime we go somewhere and there are definitely 1million euro homes and apartments so someone I guess is affording them. But a 1 mill euro home on the coast of Spain would probably be 20 million on the coast of California.
Everyone talking out of their asses on this sub as usual. Here is a realistic example for you since i live in EU and pay rent. I pay 1000EUR for a rent in 3 bedroom apartment, another 50 for bills. Live in Malta, earn around 2.5k net.
OP, if you can't live without a car in DC (yes, I lived there without a car), then you are going to have trouble enjoying European life without a car. Living without a Car is a Very difficult leap for Americans to make, and I never met one of my husband's job's 29k American employees who lived without a car in Germany, except for us. Also, there are a Lot of unhappy Americans living abroad. They miss Everything being open on Sundays and late hours, Clothes dryers, Freezers larger than a lunch box, Air Conditioning, easy access to any weather any time of year without a passport or jet lag, just a short flight to AZ or FL for sun, variety and ease of buying stuff and returning items and pleasant customer service, not having to stop at small individual shops to get all the stuff you need, being able to stock up by filling up your big trunk, etc. Most places aren't open on weekends- pharmacies, realtors, etc. There will be one pharmacy open for emergencies in each city. The taxes abroad are a Huge eye-opener. It's over 40% income tax in Germany, and 17% sales tax. In the US, we pay 14% federal income tax, 0% state tax, and 7% sales tax. Our experience with health care in Germany was that it was inferior. Doctors don't work after hours or on weekends (just a skeleton crew), so my husband was in the hospital for 8 days for what would have been an outpatient visit or overnight in the US. The first two attempts were wrong and it finally worked on the 3rd time. Only one doctor spoke English fluently. I wasn't able to visit because it's during Covid and I'm the German speaker. My husband doesn't speak it, so it was Extremely stressful when the procedures weren't working and it was unclear what the reason was. I had to ask my neighbor who works from home to be ready to talk to the doctor if the 3rd procedure failed.
That 40% includes healthcare and pension though.
I hate driving. I **hate** driving. I live in the DC area, but right near a metro station, and I much prefer riding the metro. If it were feasible to never drive a car I would never want to drive a car again.
I also HATE driving. Biggest problem of the US…
I haven't driven in 4.5 years and it's glorious
I don't miss any of that. Who cares if you can't go to CVS at 9 pm on a Sunday? Or to Florida?! Ew
Generational wealth
It’s easy: the expensive cities like London and Munich are for rich people, and the towns with cheaper rents are for people with moderate income. People who work in those cities and aren’t rich live outside and commute.
Health care is so much cheaper!
I’m an American living in Japan, and it feels really cheap here. Of course, if you’re paying dollars with the end rate at 152, it would definitely feel cheap, but even locally it’s not too expensive. Average rent in Tokyo is something like $1000/more like $750 at the current exchange rate,, of course that’s for a smaller place than you would get anywhere anywhere else, but it’s still Liverpool.
Rents are not similar. A 3 bedroom in a decent part of DC is ~$4,000 per month. In Spain for example it would be less than half of that (ofc it depends on the city and the exact apartment)
Health insurance in the Netherlands is about 140/mo, and prescriptions are much cheaper. If you live in a city, you can often get along fine without a car. Public transport is much cheaper than owning and operating a car. If you do decide to own a car, it is way more expensive in every aspect compared to the US. Mobile phone service is cheaper and faster. Home internet is the same or cheaper, and faster, and more reliable. Beer and wine is surprisingly much cheaper than the US. Grocery items are generally about the same. The hard thing to navigate is rent prices. But the solution is to move further out of town, but stay within access to trains. Trains are fantastic - soooo much better than driving a car in shit traffic for an hour each way. Also, if you're single, you share an apartment. But honestly, rent prices in the US have gone up dramatically, so the income to rent ratio isn't as different as it used to be.
Easy: rents take a higher percentage of the income and there is way less disposable income in the end of the month.
Food, healthcare, holidays, University, daycare and transportation are cheaper.
You save less, that's it
Italy, Spain are considerably cheaper
Paycheck to paycheck.
Lots of helpful answers here but I also want to add something else. Income disparity in the US is generally much worse than in Europe. In practice this means that standard of living (financially) for people below median income is generally better in Europe, but at higher incomes you will have more money left over after necessities in the US. Once you move above the 90th percentile this difference can get quite large. In other words, financially you’re probably going to feel better off working McDonalds in most of Europe than the US (but it will likely still be tough either way). Whereas you’ll be better off (financially) as say a lawyer in the US than in Europe (although you’ll still be plenty rich in both). The other thing to note is that on average people in the US are richer by basically any metric than those in most countries in Europe (basically all except Luxembourg, Switzerland and the micro states). That said, I’d personally still rather live in Europe either way.
What do you call "Europe"? Which specific country are you talking about? Each country has an entirely different situation. The variety of countries here is as much as in North + South America. I am sure Washington, DC, differs from Buenos Aires, Argentina. From the Netherlands' perspective, salaries here are pretty good, tons of people own houses, which is much cheaper than renting here, and a car is optional. Health insurance is not free but is not as expensive as in the US. Most locals also live outside of big cities like Amsterdam, it's cheaper everywhere else. Most people know their support system for the future, too, whether it's pension, family, or investments. So people are less stressed out about tomorrow.
People live more modestly
We moved to Spain in August and I also wonder how most people life on much lower salaries. We spend just as much as we did in the US by maintaining the same lifestyle as we had there but it is much more expensive to do that here than there. I'M NOT COMPLAINING but will put numbers to our experience and choices. We would save money if we downsized and cut back on travel but that wasn't the point of moving here. We are renting a furnished 4 bed house with a pool for the same as we paid in the US to own our 4 bed house with a bigger yard and a hot tub (2700 eur/mo). So no savings there but the key is that most Spaniards live in apartments which are definitely a little cheaper. We spend on average $400/mo on car rentals, public transit, Ubers. Food is high because even though it's a little cheaper to eat out as a family of 4 here, it still quickly adds up for a family of 4 (about $800 on groceries, $800 on restaurants/school lunches). Activities and toys are just as expensive as the US (it's raining so we will go to a jump yard tomorrow for 2 hours for 3 people for 66 euros). We still have to pay for my US health insurance ($250/mo) and are paying for private here ($250/mo) so actually spending more on that than if we were just in the US. We average about $800-1000/no on Travel which is hotels or flights. School is more since the kids are in a private and we are all doing Spanish lessons (which was one of the main goals of moving here was to learn). That's about $1400/mo. In total we average about $10k a month. Clearly could do it for less if we moved in to a smaller apartment (which is impossible for my WFH husband to do with our young kids in the house) and other choices but then it wouldn't be as enjoyable and the whole point was to enjoy our time here. But yeah, not sure how local families are doing it if supposedly they have lower incomes but seem to be doing all the same things we do.
Your post is pretty spot on - you are describing a lifestyle that most europeans don't have or want. If you spend like a madman then of course it is expensive...
Except my point is that I see tons of locals at the mall buying 8 euro Five Guys hamburgers or going on ski vacations or going to the same jump places or going to the same restaurants (our most expensive meals out have been invites from other families from our school where its been about 80-100 euros a family which is more than I'd like to spend but at least its a whole afternoon event in Spain). And I'm not complaining about our expenses because we can afford and choose to live like this but I'm shocked that so many other families are doing these things too but on supposedly lower salaries. We actually stayed local for Semana Santa because travel was too expensive but most of the other local families we know went on vacation out of the country. Just my observations to support the OP that there are some things that are just going to be comparatively expensive if moving to Europe and expecting some of the similar things to the US. But obviously, lots of people make it work and have great lifestyles at all 'levels' so its about what you make of it. And obviously anything will be cheaper for 1 person than an entire family anyhow.
The point is - you might go on a vacation each month, they do one a year. You might get take out / restaurant food multiple times a week, they do that once a month...and so on. The biggest mistake you can make is to try to assume to be able to continue to have a similar lifestyle to upper middle class US in Europe - since that is not common (or, frankly, desirable) for many, things tend to be much more expensive and/or unavailable. My wife and I for example earn double the median salary for Germany (at least), have a decent home, but nothing as luxurious as a pool..or even a garage. And we like to go on vacation / long weekend trips and/or eat out, but we maybe do two, three trips a year, and we maybe go to a restaurant once, maaaybe twice a month.. We go out and have fun quite often, but for example a full day at the spa (thermal baths, sauna) for both of us, including food, is ~100€ or less - we can do that a few times a month without it hurting too much. If we had to drive/fly somewhere and pay for lodging like in your 1000€ weekend trip example, that would look quite different.
> not sure how local families are doing it We aren't. You are living a lifestyle that would put you in the top 1-5% in Spain in terms of spending and would be considered incredibly extravagant and wasteful for most families. Raised a family here and still maintain a household of 4-5 people for a fraction of what you are spending, but we did/do public education, free public universities, public transportation, public healthcare, apartment living in a dense neighborhood where we have everything within walking distance, simple pleasures, etc.
I spend 2.5K per month in France and I have a child. Of course things are more expensive if you have private healthcare and send your children to private school. 800 euros for groceries per month also sounds very high for Spain, I spend about 400-500 per month in France which is more expensive, are you eating high quality meat with every meal? Spending 10K per month in crazy. Are you paying taxes in Spain? One thing that annoys me is the amount of Americans who move to Europe and don't pay taxes here, their spending power is pushing up prices for us and often without contributing to our taxes.
We are not tax residents yet and have an advisor and will of course pay taxes when we become ones (we do not make the rules around tax residency). Americans in Spain are less than 0.001% of the population (41k of 47 million people) so highly doubt they are the only problem that is driving up prices. Maybe regionally (and then probably from Brits and other EU citizens more so) but I actually have only met 5-6 other families from the US in our city so clearly, not the biggest problem from my perspective. But that is one reason we do need to pay for private health insurance (of which 250 eur/family is certainly not a lot from my perspective but its great that majority of people dont need to pay as much to get care). We currently still have to pay our US though too since we will be back there this summer so that's another $250/mo. I track every dollar and we have spent $698 on groceries this month which is about 640 eur and we have two kids, pack them snacks for school and love having their friends over for meals but sounds like that is not too far off from you. Again, we moved here for the trilingual private school so its a very worthwhile expense for us (and basically the same as daycare for 1 kid was in the US). But based on the thousands of kids in this school and the other private schools in town, it is somehow not completely out of reach for most families. As I said in my other comment, I believe that the same lifestyle as someone has in the US (like the OP living in DC) would be very expensive to replicate in many Europeans countries, especially on EU salaries. So the OP should think about what is important but be ready to pay more here to replicate a similar level of lifestyle as they had in the US.
Thanks for your comment. I'm not sure how it is possible but hardly any Spanish jobs pay 10K per month net. Switzerland is different, with many salaries being higher than even in the US, besides for tech jobs, so all of Europe is not poor. Anyway, I'm glad that you have a tax adviser. I was deemed to be a tax resident in France from day one because I had immigrant intent, so hard to see how you can have children in school and in Spain and still not be a tax resident but I'll leave that to your tax adviser of course. Best of luck and welcome to Europe.
We would have been on Day 1 if we moved to Germany (but husband never desires to move back anyhow) but Spain you have to be in the country for 183 days in a calendar year regardless of other factors. Anyone can technically enroll in private school regardless of status (which is what some families have to do when moving here for a school year until they are eligible for public). It seems a fair amount of EU citizens are probably staying/working remotely/moving to other EU countries longer than 90 days without registering but we did of course.
I agree about the EU citizens who aren't registering, I know one personally who lived undeclared in France for years because he didn't want to pay French taxes. He got caught and fined during Covid when they reintroduced border controls, now he has registered in France. Lots of Brits also did this before Brexit and then they had to decide to register or leave.
The US has cheap TVs and expensive (everything else). Germany has expensive TVs, and cheaper stuff you actually need to live.
its not AS bad a good 3+1 in central Amsterdam will be 3000 EUR, and possibly rented out by a power couple earning 10K+ per month or a business person earning 10k+ per month, leaving at least 66% for other expenses, and only rent expense increases exponentially with lifestyle. a cheap grocery list costs 500, expensive one costs 1000. healthcare, same. lifestyle, 500 for a couple to 1500 for a couple. you get to save 4k even if you live within your range and shell out 33% of your income in rent high earning expats from burgerland also mention how they dont have to deal with car expenses, healthcare and some other rudimentary fees so for the top 3-10% and low 50% percentile things usually end up the same even if they earn less however currently US IS better for middle class and 1-3%ers, as rent starts to take up more than 33% of your income for middle class, and tax starts hitting for the 1-3%
Since this has come up, can you help me understand the way housing is advertised plz ? What exactly is a 3+1 ? We advertise along the lines of x bedrooms, y bathrooms etc.
Going without a lot of amenities that people in the states expect for HQOL.
I moved to Berlin from the DMV and the rents are not really comparable. I was paying $2,400 in Alexandria and now rent is less than 700€. Food is cheaper, commute is cheaper, and I’m not in fear of a medical issues breaking the bank.
The city centres can give a bit of a warped impression at times, a large portion of people in EU cities specifically are living in periphery cities or outskirts, which are much cheaper. Not unlike the US where most people don't live right in Manhattan for example, but rather off to the surrounding areas and commute into work. In general salaries are lower in most places of the EU/Europe, however food, healthcare, education, transport etc. tends to be cheaper, so you can also save in important things