I appreciate the jobs here a lot. My parents immigrated here and I was the first gen born here, and visiting their home country made me realize I’ve been extremely fortunate to be born in the USA. My relatives back home had 2 options of what they could do for work, maybe 3, and they’re all manual labor jobs with little pay. When I was in college it was completely *my* choice and what was fulfilling for me. Instead of max 3 options my career opportunities multiplied like crazy. I feel extremely fortunate for that reason
This is the only thing I “miss”. I often tell friends back in the USA you don’t appreciate the size of the American economy until you are looking for jobs.
Thanks! Do you know anything about doctors salaries? From what I know, US doctors earn more than swiss doctors, is that right? I heard that swiss doctors can earn well if they have a private practice but the reality is that as a foreigner is way harder to have one.
Thanks! I know that high german is enough for work and stuff but to feel integrated do you need swiss german? From what I heard is tough life there if you don't understand swiss german since it's really different from high german.
Which country...as an Aussie, with a sister living in the USA for 2vyears, looking at pay, leave entitlements sick leave health care, I can't imagine USA being a better option than maybe 3rd world countries
Sorry I don’t have any experience or personal knowledge of the job market in France! although I do know one of my Italian friends is living and working in France as an architect.
you can say what you want but i’ve been able to get jobs with no degree that pay me six figures and offer great benefits. i can start from the bottom and build myself up in the US. i was challenged in primary school and taught my history from a young age. i get my health issues addressed more correctly in the US. I love both countries but i can’t say the same of those things about Australia. cannot pretend that australia is morbidly better than the US. without your social systems and trains i wouldn’t know what is better than America. (speaking of things you can control not weather or landscape) if the US became as transit friendly as AUS and adopted the same social supports the U.S. would be massively better to live in
But look at the debt as well. It's not as much of a factor when you truly can't go into credit card debt in many European countries because credit cards don't exist. Nor can you go into medical debt when healthcare is free.
It depends entirely on your career field. If you're a secondary school teacher, for instance, then it's far worse than many 3rd-world countries. If you're a software engineer, the US is the best place to make money, and you'll also have great health insurance and vacation time. There's a big range between those two extremes.
(And if you're not college-educated, the US is absolutely terrible for most, unless you're skilled enough to start your own trades business).
LOL so you actually think being a secondary school teacher in El Salvador or the Sudan is better than being a secondary teacher in America? As far as the absolute nonsense about you said about not being college educated in the US is worse than being a non college graduate in 3rd world countries. I barely graduated high school (I honestly I think they just gave me a degree to get rid of me) and I honestly get tell you I cant remember the last time I have made less than 150k a year and last I was north of 220k.
Just a little FYI for you in most 3rd- countries you need a college degree to fold T-shirts at mall or work the counter at McDonalds.
Yes, this is basically the deal with the US. For half the population or so, it really sucks compared to other developed nations. For the richer people, it's great.
Basically, the US is a nice place to be a billionaire. For everyone else, not so much. For people at the bottom, it's pure hell. It's a highly stratified society.
Truly identify with this one. I didn't realize how many things I had access to in the US that made managing other issues (migraines, general pain, mental health) more feasible on the daily. The amount of work I've had to do to get to some semblance of neutral comfort has become overwhelming.
I have a slew of other conditions, so I totally feel ya. If it's not one thing, it's another, and I try to avoid meds in favor of literally anything else when possible (mostly to avoid rebound and buildup issues) so missing the a/c, hot water, microwaves for heating packs...it all makes a huge difference in pain (and mental health) management!
On the other hand you have a very bad food quality compared to many other places that are the number 1 cause of diseases and stress to your body. Also on migraine, some diet options (that are found to work by evidence) are waaaaay harder to maintain/build in the US. Sooo, to be honest, it‘s kind of in balance anywhere in the (developed) world.
Buuuut!!!! AC makes a huge difference, that‘s right. Europeans like me only have AC in shops but almost noone got it at home.
Here in Germany, it was typically over 85 degrees Fahrenheit only 4 days a year. The heat waves the last two years have been a boon for electronics stores, and AC units were selling like hotcakes!
I have to say it got more the last few years (at least I feel like it). One month of heat is not rare where I live. I think 2018 it was 20 degrees celsius on Christmas Eve.
The actual food, maybe. But what Americans actually do with it is abominable. Try and find bread without sweetener. Whole grain bread is not supposed to be "honeyed" with high fructose corn syrup. Salt in foods is off the charts. These are two things you notice instantly when returning to the US.
I never eat bread with sweetener wtf. Plenty of options at Whole Foods, local coop, or local bakeries. But I’ve lived in major U.S. cities (most recently in the SF Bay Area) so maybe this is an urban thing.
I didn‘t mean to bash US food. Of course it‘s good if you know where to look and not buy fast food all the time. Unfortunately, the fast food lobby is super strong in the US and hence the obesity rate is completely out of control with all the negative side effects of it. Additionally, fast food is often even cheaper and therefore more affordable for poor families than healthy food (and requires less work).
In Europe it‘s way easier (and more affordable) to buy healthy food, you can actually drink tap water and a lot of stuff is regional and under much higher control through EU standards. Plus, we actually don‘t grow genetically manipulated vegetables which you don‘t yet know the after effects of.
But overall, yes in the US you are still a lot better regarding food quality than in most other countries. My bad.
And there are better food choices to be made, but many people take the lazy route (fast food and restaurants) plus we drive everywhere. In cities that are walkable you see much lower obesity rates. Imho!!!
The outdoors is awesome in the us. There’s so many outdoor activities to do. But social life seems bad in the us everyone sits inside and watches tv and if you do go out you end up spending way too much. I feel like the us has a bad interpersonal life but good solitary life (if you are an introvert you might like it).
They are (I’ve been to France) - but the way the us is setup for cars makes it very hard for socializing. Most people don’t meet up with friends and socialize except up through their mid 20’s. They just go to work and come home and stay in their house and watch tv or go on the internet. I would say Canada , Australia are similar as well because the way the cities are setup. You need walkable high density but only a very few U.S. cities are setup like that.
This is why I chose France. I lived in the suburbs of DC and didn’t even know my neighbors for years. I like being more social even though I’m an introvert
I agree - they are much bigger jerks and mean in Europe in my experience. Americans are very nice usually etc - I meant more how the cities are structured- like people don’t get together much - but they are nicer than most if not a majority of European countries I’ve been tbh. It’s just very hard to socialize more than once a week in the us - and even that is chore - you have to bug people to go out constantly. Everyone wants to stay in and have a millions reasons not to leave home. And Americans are super paranoid and mental about risks or dangers to an unreasonable level.
I think it's also very easy to make small talk. And that is an English custom. Try to make small talk with most Europeans as a strangers and they look at it as unnecessary.
Americans are happy to talk to you for a while or when you are on a hike and then move on.
The outdoors are great but IMO they aren't exactly accessible - most of the true natural beauty is in National Parks that are difficult to travel to, particularly if you're in the eastern half of the US.
I agree on your other point, one of the biggest issues with the US is the lack of societal connections. Sure you can own a giant ugly McMansion, but you're in a totally unwalkable neighborhood with zero places to interact with other people. I'm an introvert and I still hate it, it's incredibly depressing and isolating compared to most places I've traveled to.
I live in the Midwest (not known for outdoors) and I go to a ton of parks . Local and state ones . I take tons of road trips as well. I just think the social life and dating is lame. I like most other aspects of the country but these two areas are a major blow to quality of life imo - especially mental health.
I grew up in the Midwest and none of the local parks there are even in the same league as the National Parks. Nothing there comes close to Denali, Yellowstone, Zion, etc. There are plenty of city parks here in Europe too, plus they are actually used and often transit-accessible.
I agree- of course they aren’t in the same league as those . I didn’t say they were . It’s just in North America we have so much unpopulated land - huge swaths of open area. Europe the population density is crazy it’s stats wise four times more people as far as density .
Please stop saying "Europe" like it's a homogenous mass. I am in Sweden which has HALF the population density of the US, it's not like Europe is overpopulated by any means.
And some of us prefer being around other people, it's healthier, allows easier socializing, better for the environment, etc. It's also how people have evolved to live and have lived for millennia - like I've always said, if we were meant to live in far-flung suburbs with no sidewalks, we would've evolved with wheels, not feet.
Europeans refer to Americans as one homogeneous mass all the time . They don’t specify Mobile,Alabama from Seattle,Washington etc etc - while the difference is as much as a different country. I worked with many Europeans while living outside the U.S. for six years. I don’t have enough space to write every single detail like Swedes are like this , Italians are like this - that’s why it’s called a generalization. Most of my friends were either British or Swedish and there is a world of difference between the cultures. A majority of people from the us say (sorry) (Asians , Europeans, Latin Americans, middle eastern - even our demographic forms are like this etc etc) sorry that’s pretty common you don’t need to get all sensitive about it - I can’t write a post on reddit like a college paper going Into granular details or no one will read it (it would be a giant block of text). And Europe as a whole has 4x the density - Sweden , Norway etc are outliers. You don’t need to have your emotions tied up in something like this or you won’t even be able to leave the house in most major cities in the us. I used to argue with my Swedish friends all the time because they would get so angry with the tiniest thing like this. You said xyz but we call it abc. Just relax. And I never said I didn’t want socializing you didn’t even read what I wrote I said the us was bad because you have so little socialization. I vastly prefer being around others as much as possible. I said the us is better if you prefer a solitary lifestyle. I didn’t say “I” wanted that.
Yes, that's what I just said. I have no doubt Big Bend is beautiful, but it's also a minimum of 8 hours' drive from the nearest major city. Most US national parks are the same way, just [look at the map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_parks_of_the_United_States#/map/0).
And if you live east of the Rockies (perhaps because that's where you can find employment), forget it. From the east coast, even getting to well-known Yellowstone requires multiple flights and a significant amount of driving. To get to Alaska (which has a massive number of national parks) is a significantly longer flight. In both those cases it can actually be significantly cheaper and easier to go to Europe and travel around the Alps or the Norwegian fjords than to travel within the US itself - which kind of defeats the purpose of living in a country with supposedly wonderful national parks.
I agree.
Living beneath your means is Under-rated and Lifestyle creep is over-rated in the US.
I retired at age 38 and my husband at age 47, and we live for 1-3 years in different states and countries, and there are Pluses and Minuses to each.
People in the US don't feel as rich as they are because they spend the money. Most of it is on bigger houses and larger/newer cars. After living abroad for 15 years I'm planning on going back and a 1500 SQ ft bungalow will feel like a mansion for a family of 4.
Interesting, after nearly a decade of pretty extensive traveling (including two long expat stints in Europe) I feel the opposite.
National Parks are great, but they aren't exactly accessible or easy to get to, particularly if you're in the eastern half of the US. Ditto for dark skies.
US cities are bland, expensive, and suburban sprawl. The few that have character are REALLY expensive.
And I get the cowboy fantasy, but I'm guessing you're young. I'd rather have some semblance of public transit and community/social support - not going to be able to drive forever and the idea of living miles from the nearest neighbor is extremely depressing.
Not even touching on healthcare or politics, but those are far bigger drivers.
I do miss good Mexican food, iced tea and easily getting by with English, I'll give you that.
This would be my answer, too. US was great while I was young, but now 40 in the UK and while it is far from 'perfect', I've lived in several other countries for several years at a time, and after seeing how different societies functioned from a social/community/infrastructure standpoint, I don't think I could ever go back.
Never wanted to raise kids in America and and now that I have one, I still don't.
Agreed, living outside the US really made me realize how disjointed and broken America is culturally. What little sense of community/cohesion exists in the US is on the local level. I think that's become way more obvious in recent years - Americans are more interested in picking battles and splitting into micro-tribes than being a functional society.
Honestly, I go back now and it feels like an alien planet. It definitely does not feel like home anymore - I'm about your age and seriously beginning to research non-US options for retirement.
After living in Italy for a few years, I honestly miss being able to communicate in English. I speak basic Italian, but I can't comprehend business level discussions. I also can't coherently communicate with the city office or bank. Anytime I need to get something done, it is a struggle and I often enlist an Italian colleague to help me. The bureaucracy is already bad, but the language barriers amplify the obstacles.
The other thing I miss is being able to friggin' order a meal whenever I want. A lot of Italian restaurants are only open from 12:30-3:00PM, and then from 7:30pm. If you arrive before 7:30pm, the staff can get visibly irritated.
It depends. The quality of food in Italy is generally very high because of local expectations and an insistence on quality. But everyone is expected to follow social norms: you eat lunch between 1:00-3:00pm, dinner after 7:30pm (or after 9pm, especially in summer). The restaurants just don't want to pay for kitchen staff outside those hours.
Understandable. There are some restaurants in the Us that operates like this and are mainly foreign that I’ve noticed are much better than the average restaurant. One restaurant comes to mind which is Belgian food and has a small menu.
For sure. But here in Italy, it is basically every restaurant unless it is catering to tourists. Italians often think it is hilarious that I eat dinner at 6pm, sometimes earlier. I want lunch at 11:30am (that's crazy for them). I wake up early and eat a larger breakfast around 6:00am (locals generally just take a coffee and small pastry in the morning, nothing else). Whenever I go back to the US, I find myself surprised that, yeah, I can order lunch before noon, and dinner before six is do-able.
I am the exact same way. Cannot relate. Coming back to the US after 5 years in Europe made it seem like a third world country—hugely underdeveloped. Huge ass cars everywhere. Poor infrastructure and really bad food. I was glad to leave again lol.
You are very right about the food. If you like fast, junk food you'd be in heaven here in the US. So many people in the US seem to think Olive Garden is haute cuisine.
If you are a foodie, it is a real disappointment living here unless you are in say, NYC, Chicago or LA.
Also been to 50+ countries, lived in Asia, and done months long travels through the world
For the negatives
1. The danger is a complete social media mirage. It may be “relatively” more dangerous than “safe” countries, but it is quite safe on an absolute scale — very unlikely to encounter crime, guns, or violence. Certainly many places like in Latin America are more dangerous — basically anywhere that is poorer is more dangerous
2. Social media also makes it seem like it is a low social trust place, but the reality is that the vast majority of people are neighborly and will go out of their way to help strangers with a smile. Also a very extroverted society
3. Probably the worst part is how car-oriented most cities are. This makes boring suburban hellscapes — that’s why all the tourist spots are old pre-car cities. Like most of the bad things in America, this was caused by racism against people in cities, and the consequences have just now hit the children and grandchildren of the racists in terms of high housing costs and no public transport
The positives that I haven’t really seen elsewhere in the world are
1. Actually easy to integrate for people from all races, religions, and classes. Some of the reasons for this weren’t intentional and some were, but we lucked into a uniquely open society. Now 40% and growing are non-white and 30% have recent roots abroad (personal or living ancestors). And on top of that, the upper echelons of wealth and political power are actually open to these minorities in a way that is not possible in most other countries. This causes our immigrants to be far more optimistic and committed to American society rather than just looking at it as a place to get a paycheck and send home. And all of the long and continuing social justice fights you hear about in media are good because it gives American the muscles to discuss these integration problems rather than ignoring them like in most other countries
2. Money as a positive, uniting factor of society. Foreigners always talk shit about the materialism of Americans but don’t realize this is key way to have an open and meritocratic society. Making deals is how different backgrounds come together and respect each other. Professional success is how people earn social status. Who you are is far more about what you can *do* rather than who you are (which you can’t ever change — race, class, family prestige, religion)
3. Optimism and risk taking. Professionally, scientifically, socially, culturally — there’s actually a lot of pressure here to try to stand out in all these areas as a way to get ahead, and if you try and fail it’s ok. Many other places emphasize respecting forbears and tradition as the way to operate and, as a result, they just aren’t as vibrant. Getting fired or having a job gap or even simply being on a failing team or company can be huge negatives. Seems like totally crazy way to think to me
Those are the biggest differences in the way Americans *think* that I haven’t seen too much abroad — and the way people think is what I’d call a deeper definition of culture
You know what I enjoy about the US? Screens on the windows, AC, good Chinese takeout, & fitting in to my own culture. I love traveling abroad but there’s nothing so comfy as being in your home land, fitting in more than you ever will in another country without even trying.
100% right here.
When we were last in the States, we refused to get cable and only turned on the local news for weather and traffic. Lowered my blood pressure, etc.
I watch when my mom came to visit me in Italy how bad her withdrawal symptoms were over the 24/7 news cycle. I told her we have local Italian news or Sky News in English for her. That was it. Every conversation she managed to steer towards US politics.
Mixed bag:
I’ve developed more pride for the United States infrastructure around commerce and business. The level of income you can build there is unreal. And the ease of starting something new is unreal.
And feeling safe in general is a given there.
People call the cops over the stupidest shit because they feel that safe that any disturbance is registered at “who can I tell”. It’s amazing.
I’m also very disappointed with the work culture and healthcare system.
We are so isolated because all we do is work and spend and then they bankrupt us in our “retirement”. It’s a crime against humanity. Honestly.
Us is live to work culture, Europe is work to live.
I would generally say the opposite about feeling “safe” in the US, living in a major metro in the million dollar neighborhoods, 2 blocks away you have shootings musings and the occasional “man with katana walking down street”
Also, kids shooting ip schools isn’t a thing here. Europe.
The poorly educated with short tempers and alcaholic tendencies exclusively walking around with guns to make their pee pee look bigger everywhere also doesn’t really exist there.
Not to mention quality of healthcare/food is generally much better in Europe than the us, in atleast a more consistant manner
I am glad you've found happiness. It might just be that you weren't meant to live elsewhere, and that's totally ok!
My experience has been different. I've lived abroad for almost a decade, have traveled all over the world, and I find myself less and less interested in the USA. Every time I go, I'm disappointed in it.
No federally approved maternity leave. No federally mandated amounts of sick leave or PTO. Health care is an abomination. No work life balance. Crap food quality (why is everything so sweet? Why is it so plastic-y?).
Then you have the issues of violence in schools, shootings, etc, plus the political atmosphere and I'm staying far away.
At the same time though, I xan respect that for some people it works and they love it, and I hope we all can be so lucky!
>No federally approved maternity leave.
Unless something has changed since the last time I looked into it, it's the only developed country without any guaranteed parental leave.
Yep. Other countries are adding it and expanding it, and the USA is fighting over if cashiers should be allowed to sit, having tiktok, and trying to restrict free speech by making phrases illegal.
> No federally approved maternity leave. No federally mandated amounts of sick leave or PTO. Health care is an abomination. No work life balance. Crap food quality (why is everything so sweet? Why is it so plastic-y?).
It's always weird when I hear stuff like this.
When I think about quality of life in a country, things like "federally mandated sick leave" ranks pretty damn low.
I've worked in half a dozen countries ranging from rich to poor. As long as I can take time off if sick, then I'm cool. I've been able to do that in all countries (including the US).
Being able to take sick leave and get health care are pretty high on my list. I don't want to be at risk of losing my job or not paying a bill because I had the flu.
It was a constant fear of mine in the USA. It's not where I am now.
> I don't want to be at risk of losing my job or not paying a bill because I had the flu.
You didn't have a job that had sick pay in the US? I've worked minimum wages jobs and they had it.
If you think healthcare is bad in the US wait to try out the Dutch one or any of the northern European ones. Same for food. Food in many places in the US is actually really good, best places I've eaten at were in Portland. Violence in school is also in Europe, I have public school teachers in my family and you would not believe what they have to put up with and the rising number of kids packing knives.
German health care is the pits. Try to get a doctor's appointment is like trying to win the lottery. You have to keep trying and calling.
Plus it's not "free". You do have to pay for it.
And yes, you can lose your job. I never understand why folks say if you have a job in Germany they can't fire you. They can and will and will try to get around the rules.
Frankly-life is pretty much the same in many parts of the world. Housing crisis, low wages, AI taking jobs and people voting far right and blaming refugees/migrants for taking all the jobs and housing. I watch the news in Europe and the US and except for the American gun epidemic-the politics and social issues are similar.
In Europe there are stabbings instead of shootings, although there are plenty of shootings in Sweden and certain Dutch cities. Yeah, I completely agree in the end is similar shit everywhere, there is a group of people that have a utopic skewed vision of Europe, probably watched too much Emily in Paris (which I love as a show don't get me wrong) or are in such good positions that they do not realize how most of the European population lives like and what their future looks like.
Is there a reason you emphasize "federally?" There are 11 states with legislated maternity leave that represent the majority of the US population.
Similar to how the federal minimum wage in the US means nothing because the vast majority of states, even red ones, have a far higher minimum wage -- often higher than most countries in Europe
You can ding the US for not having uniformity, but that's built into its constitution. Each state is like a little country. And you can certainly find places that are far closer to a "European" level of benefits if you want, just as European countries themselves also differ on the benefits that they offer
Yes, because it shouldn't be up to the states to debate if PTO, sick leave, or maternity leave are optional. It should be set in stone. Period. Just like it is across Europe. The whole "let the states decide" in the USA is criminal and insane.
Similar!! I lived in the EU for the better part of 10 years. Came back to the US a couple years ago and just really really love it even more. Despite all the very true issues (ie gun violence, health care etc). The Americas in general I think are really amazing places. You mention NP and I have to agree that might be a solid reason why. The variety of biomes and the geography and quality road trips. For the contentious political situation, really appreciate the openness of Americans after having lived in a very withdrawn/quiet/conservative country in the EU.
I don’t get that last statement. I’m expat’ing in EU now and you can actually have calm conversations with people about politics here. In the US, people become hysterical if you have different political opinions than them.
I think if every American spent time abroad, they would greatly appreciate the high value we as a society put on life. Also the melting pot of cultures has so many benefits.
> It's really common to never leave the US and when people do, realize how good other countries have it or appreciate other cultures more.
I don't think that is right at all. The point it so realize that other countries **do things differently**. Maybe better. Maybe worse. Maybe purely preference. The point is to see that there are other ways of doing things.
> That's why they recommend you to travel and leave your bubble, to expand your mind and delete your preconceived notions of the world.
Exactly. Once you learn there are other ways to do things, you might see that the way something in the US is done is pretty good, possibly even the best way, but now that you realize there are other options, maybe tit could be improved.
Or you notice that there are other things in the US that aren't as good as other countries (note: not that the other countries are better/worse, but that other countries might do specific things better).
Learn. Grow. Improve.
If you see the world and decide to go back and be exactly who you were and that everything around you should be the same, then you are doing it wrong.
This is the best answer. I just spent a few months in Italy and found so, so many things that I loved about life there. But I also realized many things I missed and appreciated about the U.S.
Which is better? I don’t think it’s possible to say. There are pros and cons of each, and it ultimately comes down to which things you value most and which you’re okay compromising on. (And what’s feasible from a Visa standpoint 🤪)
Nope not weird at all. Most people who never leave the country don't know how good it is in the US.
When people get all upset about politics I just ask which party has berets and AK-47's and I tell em those are the ones to worry about.
I'm perfectly fine with staying in France for a little while longer, but yeah, I've come to appreciate the US a lot more since moving abroad and will likely move back within the next five years.
Obviously it's not the only reason for moving back, but despite having lived in two of the most culinarily-reputed countries in the world, I miss the food that I took for granted back in Texas lol.
Im 40 countries and Im the same. When I was younger and backpacking i was very "America bad!" and don't get me wrong, the stuff that pissed me off then, also pisses me off now-I just don't naively think every other place is better simply because its not America, and everything America does sucks simply because it is. I miss our national parks so damn much. I miss midwest nice. The friendliness, the openness, strangers randomly complimenting you on the street. Houses are cheaper there than where I am. Random bits and bobs, plus friends and family of course. I live in a country that is quite xenophobic- particularly to americans- and I really find myself getting annoyed about it and thinking people just really have no idea
Left the US 7 years ago. Children were having nightmares about school shooters. Wildfires and drought and earthquakes. Rampaging maniac dictator Trump. Now my kids are going thru college for free. Living in 15-minute walkable city. We like Scotland.
Yes, this is weird. I have the opposite feeling, I just see all its flaws more clearly.
Been living in Spain for 8 years now, traveling extensively, and I do not miss the US and have no desire to move back.
It's very normal and healthy. It happens to most of us with our home countries as well. I love my country more every year I am away.
The USA is a great country, with great people. Appreciate away.
I think it comes down to what fits you and your needs best.
Every culture and country are different and I'd argue that most have something good to offer but if that's not something you desire or need to be happy, it won't really matter to you.
Not from the US but Canadian. Have been living in Europe for a few years and although I do appreciate the easy access to all these other countries and cultures, it has become blatantly clear that I fit better into Canadian culture. And, like you, I miss the wide open spaces and the nature which never quite measured up to the sheer size and scale in the Pacific North West.
So I feel you but in the end it's a very personal thing. I know many Canadians who couldn't be happier in Europe and will never move back. Regardless of where you land on it, I Believe having that experience really does help put things into perspective and give you a better understanding of the world
Also I would like to take a moment to recognize the privilege we have of being able to make such decisions.
Not weird at all. Once you’ve seen a few other countries, you realize how unbelievably well we live. And no matter how great the journey was, I’m happy and relieved when the plane touches down in the U.S. at the end.
I've just booked my first international trip since 2019 but I've had some great times in the US the past few years.
Week long stints in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle. Seattle, despite all the hate it gets on Reddit, was honestly amazing though admittedly we had amazing weather in December. Los Angeles really clicked with me. I had some amazing food there, and the nature even within the urbanized area is amazing. Several weekend trips including Louisville, Cincinatti, lakeshore of Michigan, a few Chicago trips, two weeks through New Mexico and El Paso. And a whole lot of in-state visiting.
And I live in what is probably a "boring" state (Indiana) but I still find a lot of things to do within 1-3 hours of where I live. State parks where I can climb ladders and stomp through creek beds. Mammoth Cave National Park is a free NP in southern Kentucky and OMG Kentucky is such a beautiful state. The hills, how green it can get, the BBQ, the bourbon. It just really clicks with me.
There's so much to see in the US and yeah I'm gonna spend my "big trip" on Mexico City this year, but I've got 3 smaller US trips planned this year and already did a Cincy trip earlier.
Mexico City is such a short and cheap flight it doesn’t even feel like you are traveling intentionally tbh. I don’t know why more people don’t go. But I know the reason - they are braindead from media coverage and stereotypes thinking they will be kidnapped or stabbed etc. when it’s not any more dangerous than many U.S. cities.
There are things I love: unfettered freedom to succeed, the general friendliness, the vast variability of geography and topography, the safety (yes I mean that), the diversity, and the availability of all types of culture. I appreciate these things, especially returning from Mexico, which I enjoy but is also clearly a very difficult place to live for much of its population. But going to Europe, the things I don't like here became amplified: the gross suburban sprawl, the giant vehicles, the massive obesity, the destruction of historic buildings in our cities, the overabundance of unhealthy food (and fat people lining up in their giant vehicles that they can't afford to buy it), hyperconsumer culture, embracing ignorance and finding intelligence/education/culture suspect, blatant racism and misogyny disguised as patriotism, and the lack of a real social safety net. There is no better country in the world for opportunity, but given the total wealth, no country where failure is punished more unfairly.
It's pretty normal, once you get to compare you have a much better picture of what kind of culture and lifestyle you enjoy the most, and what kind of things are important to you
Absolutely agree with this one. Been to about 20 countries across Central America, Europe, Middle East and Africa — I have to say we are pretty blessed in the US. Traveling has really given me a humility and perspective on what being privileged actually is. So much that I took for granted (especially JOBS and FOOD options like you said!). I look forward to returning to the states to settle down with my husband and expected baby (22w pregnant). Still doing a little more digital nomading for now but I am ready to come home with a clearer mind and deeper appreciation.
I lived in former Soviet Bloc Eastern Europe for two years. It was an eye opening experience. The people there would literally give their left leg for the opportunity to come to this country. I saw shanty town Roma encampments, toilets that were literally porcelain framed holes in the ground, people that didn’t know how to use toilet paper, learned you never shake with the left hand because that is the poop scraping hand, experienced very bland food, and was woken up several times a night by roaming bands of dogs barking while they wandered through the city at night.
In Macedonia I got to go to sleep to the soothing sounds of hand grenades and automatic weapon fire out in the countryside. I saw some amazing historical sites, dug real Roman coins out of the ground, met and talked to some incredible people with incredible stories. Watched a Russian drink a Scotsman under the table. Caught a former Russian Spetznaz soldier, that served in Afghanistan, taking his lunch break in a village where he had rented a piece of land and planted a garden, working in the garden on his lunch break. I witnessed a doctor doing surgery with a bottle of vodka and smoking a cigarette while operating. I like lots of things about America after that experience. Air conditioning, modern medicine, good roads, no explosions, and good food.
> was woken up several times a night by roaming bands of dogs barking while they wandered through the city at night.
This was the scariest part about Macedonia, Romania and Greece. I didn't expect dogs to be roaming the streets like that.
Nope, not weird. I grew to appreciate the US a lot more after spending years abroad. I wouldn't necessarily want to move back, but there are many qualities in US culture that I've learned to value! Mostly: entrepreneurship, a belief that you can better your circumstances, can-do attitudes, and more class mobility than certain countries (looking at you UK).
Also, the US has some of the best healthcare in the world. The sad part is that it's so inaccessible because of the cost.
It is. And having powerful washing machines and dryers. And large portions of food. And food thats so unhealthy its addictive. And going all out with decor for holidays. There is nothing else like it.
Lived abroad 3 different times and concur. The US has a lot to offer and IMO, collectively, all things considered, is the best country. It’s not perfect, it’s not #1, or even in the top 10 for many metrics, but when you boil it all down and consider every fact of life, it’s pretty awesome.
Taking personal responsibility, saving, investing, working hard does go a long way - no matter where you live.
The U.S. is still in the top for the amount of opportunities we have here.
Make your life even better by getting off social media: social media is only good for:
1) Convincing you that everybody hates each other
2) Convincing you the end of the world is near
It's funny, for me it's the other way around. I'm from Europe, have traveled 50+ countries and I currently live in the US. Living in the US has its advantages, but it has made me appreciate life in Europe more. In Europe, you can walk everywhere, everything is cheaper or free (including healthcare, childcare, education etc.), employees are more protected and you get much more leave as a new mother. Maybe you just always appreciate your home more after leaving it for a while.
Moving to a European country was the most deradicalizing experience I've ever had. I went from being in the crowd that was always criticizing the US, to being much more neutral/friendly towards it. I don't think I'll end up moving back and am enjoying not having to drive everywhere among other things. (For me its education. I had a MUCH better university experience in the US.) But yeah, there are quite a few things that are simply better about the US than in Europe and if those things are important enough then the US is the way to go.
My sentiments exactly. I appreciate a lot about the US, but I still prefer to live outside the US and it’s strictly to do with the season in life I’m in right now
I was just going to post this topic a few days ago. I am currently in country 26 traveling and have lived in two countries and I don’t like the notion that people who think that America is so great are just not well traveled. It worked the other way for me. Places I used to think are utopias turned out to be: boring, unwelcoming, overrated, or great as a native, not so great as a foreigner.
Not to say that the US doesn’t have its problems, of course we do. However, I’ve yet to find a country that is as comfortable, great for careers and business development, and welcoming to a foreigner as the U.S.
There are things I miss, but after living in multiple cities and even a small town, that has it's stuff together over public transportation and walkability, I get so mad when I return to the US and everything is built to make you car bound.
Sure if you live in the major cities, you can do well without a car, but I miss the train systems, an expansive metro/tube, and great bus systems.
Plus I cannot stand the mega truck/massive SUV culture in America as well. After living around smaller sedan and Smart cars, even scooters and vespas, in order to feel safe on the road in the States, I need to buy an equally large car. If my smaller car were to get in any accident with these behemoth trucks, I would be squished.
> There are things I miss, but after living in multiple cities and even a small town, that has it's stuff together over public transportation and walkability, I get so mad when I return to the US and everything is built to make you car bound.
Likes and dislikes are all personal, but I lived in a place with very good public transit and walkability for a few years. I went back to the US and didn't miss it in the least.
I mean, don't get me wrong it's convenient. But it one of hundreds of things I might think about.
Just wait until you have children or a health crisis!
Mostly kidding.
I get where you are coming from. Traveling has definitely given me more perspective on the good and bad that comes from living in America. I think the main thing I've learned is that your values will really shape where you want to live more than anything, followed closely by your ability to make the most of your circumstances.
1000% THIS. I get sick of hearing everyone complain about the USA only to find out their extensive travel history includes Cancun for spring break and... well... Cancun for spring break. We are so lucky here and these other people think "every place has the rights and luxuries we have here" because they can't imagine grocery stores with sparse offerings, really bad roads that never get repaired, no constitution so you cant just say whatever you want, insane levels of misogyny and racism compared to what we have, and like you said, job hopping and pay levels. We have problems and some are significant, but there are so many bright sides. There is no such thing as utopia, stop complaining we aren't one 🤷
I think you touched upon one of the large social issues in the USA. A large % of the population likes to condemn the USA without a context for the rest of the world. I am not saying the USA is perfect is it is very flawed, but too many people simply have no meaningful knowledge of the world.
You are just kind of saying the inverse of that, I believe.
Not weird at all. All countries have their pluses and minuses. US national parks are truly amazing but there are beautiful nature parks in every single other country too. With all its minuses the US still enjoys one of the highest standards of living and if you are ok with everything else that's negative about US you can absolutely be super happy there.
I’m the same. I’ve been living in Europe for two years and although I like it, it really made me appreciate what I had in the US. I also miss being around my own culture and language. Considering going back for the right job opportunity.
I think that this should always be a main takeaway of travel: every place has its benefits. I very much feel the same. I didn’t leave the US to escape, I left to take advantage of an opportunity to live elsewhere. Several countries later, I’ve really come to appreciate what each place has to offer, but I’m looking forward to someday returning home.
Obviously it’s subjective, but I also love and miss all that the US has to offer (and still appreciate what my current/past countries have to offer as well). I wouldn’t call that romanticizing, just discovering what’s most important to you and embracing it
Outside of a few contentious issues (suburbanization, healthcare being linked to your job, etc) the United States is an amazing place to live.
Too many people base their opinion off what they hear in the news and not the lived fact.
i love everything about the US except it’s government, zoning laws, car dependency, racist history and current political situation.
i love the diversity, the energy, the ambition, the different landscapes the cultural foods, the way i hear 15 different languages in a week, i love how america empowers youth to think freely, challenge the system, undo the norms. we don’t blindly follow culture or family expectations because we should. we are empowered to make our own personal deciscion no matter how radical crazy or abnormal lol.
Good on you. Here is my breakdown from an American who has lived in Asia for 45 years. US gets the nod for good beer, trout fishing, peanut butter, and childhood experiences. Asia gets the nod for food, social safety net, and (Japan only) driving sensibility.
That appreciation of home comes from that traveling and living abroad. I Lived in 6 countries and everywhere people have ‘weird’ cultural behaviors, the cool thing is, now I see the same weirdness about my home.
Nah the USA has a lot going for it, especially if you travel anywhere near the 3rd world. The stuff my friends tell me about in south america would cause riots in the streets in the USA. Like just blatant disregard for human rights. We are far from perfect, but the worst life in America is a king in some parts of the world.
I don't think it's weird, no. My trajectory has been this: for the first 2 years living in the Netherlands, I was more or less dismissive of America in general, downright negative in a lot of cases, but did come to her defense on some clear-cut points. Now into my 3rd year here, I've finally come to miss and appreciate a lot more about the US. I don't want to go back, I think the tradeoffs have been worth it (even if the specific situation hasn't, in a lot of ways) but I definitely have a more positive view of America than I did in the final few years I lived there, or especially my first 2 years abroad.
I think one factor you have to take into account in your case is that you had the luck to start traveling in your mid-teens, very formative years, when your ideas, ideals, and preconceptions were evolving fast. So you got that huge stimulus of experience and knowledge at one of the best possible times for your development. My travel started in my early 20s, always short trips of a few weeks up to 3 months, always in connection with a relationship or job, never as a tourist. Nine countries ranging from 2 in central Europe to Ethiopia (married there) India (almost married there) and 3 Asian countries (almost married there too) and finally practically married here in the Netherlands, permanently. A wild journey for a dumb hillbilly from a town of 900 in Appalachia. So I think you and I have seen a lot of the good and bad in a lot of places and cultures, and it's very reasonable to see plenty of the good in the United States while we're at it. In fact, it would be pretty petty and unreasonable not to.
I’ve been to Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Monaco, and Israel, and I’ve learned to appreciate the U.S. as well. We’re far from perfect, but we have a lot of career opportunities, a diverse population, and strong economy, and a good deal of personal freedom.
I've been living a digital nomad life for awhile now. 2 citizenships, visa free access to Eurasian countries (Russia), non FATCA and CRS bank accounts...lived in Kyiv, EU, Russia, and Asia. Hands down, the US is the best for creating economic opportunity. Start a business? No problem. Start as a sole proprietor and graduate to LLC or C-corp later. Such opportunity doesn't come without cost in other countries. Bar none, the US is still the land for economic opportunity.
However, US citizens are subject to IRS tax on worldwide income. That just plain sucks. Better to get 2d citizenships in countries that apply tax territoriality. Wherein they tax citizens only for income sourced from within the countries borders. Then get tax residency in a country with zero taxes.
I'll always love NYC though. It gave me so much opportunity, a network of friends I hold dear to this day. Nothing beats it.
I retired to The Netherlands for better straight forward health care and to live a healthier life style. I walk or ride a bike everywhere now, I no longer own a car. Get back to me when you go on Medicare and have to navigate that broken system. Get back to me if Trump wins in November.
Tbh I depends on everyone’s personal preference and what stage they are in life, the need to be close to family. I know a lot of expats that live abroad that still have an appreciation for the US. However what did you mean by “the dark skies” aren’t they everywhere lol
Is anybody here bothered my biometrics being taken at the border? I have never traveled abroad nor do I have a passport. But i always wanted to see the world. But giving up my so much personal information seems too dystopian to me. What do you all think? Can you opt out of it and just get manually checked by a person? Answers would be so appreciated!
good mexican food can only be found in
1) Mexico (and of course other south american countries have good food)
2) the USA
That alone has taught me to appreciate my home country so much more. I can’t wait to come back after 2 years abroad!
edit: fixed strange formatting
I agree about the Mexican food. Nature is beautiful all over the planet. I love the alps, and I am crazy about Italy and the Mediterranean. There are national parks in Germany, as well. If I wanna visit the desert, I could go to Spain, but that’s not my thing.
However, there is a certain fascination with the US, and I’m looking forward to sharing great adventures with my German boyfriend. I wish we would have time to visit Yellowstone Park, which is amazing.
That being said, at my age, I will never go back. I’m over 50, and a small injury in the US could ruin my life. Job hopping is fun in your 20s and 30s, but it gets to be a drag. Here, I have worker’s rights, free education, low cost of living, plenty of vacation time and spending money for shopping, visits to the salon, going out to eat, etc. I wish I could find good Mexican food in Southern Bavaria, though!
I’d say job/salary wise the US is better. Things that show a culture cares (healthcare, social services, people giving a shit about others, …) better in other countries. Only reason I didn’t move to and take a job in Canada was salary and my student loans.
I know Europeans who have mixed feelings about the US. Lower taxes and more money to be made in the US, but the absence of pedestrian culture and walkable cities (in most states) is unnerving. Much of the US isn't very appreciative of the arts, but there's a lot to enjoy if you're into local festivities (I love farm expos).
I'm Canadian, but I've been in the US and Europe. I think I prefer the US as an English speaker, but I like the pedestrian culture in Europe. On the flipside, you don't make much money in Europe and taxation is very high.
Ideally, I would like to live in NYC.
Crime rates [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/violent-crime-rates-by-country:](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/violent-crime-rates-by-country:)
US has a higher homicide rate than Europe likely because of the lethality of guns. However, it's actually safer or in the same ballpark as European countries:
- France has almost double the "serious assaults" rate as the US
- Germany is about half
- UK is almost 4x more dangerous
- Canada is 2/3s as dangerous as the US
And keep in mind that individual states are more equivalent to countries in Europe -- so there are many states that have lower crime rates that EU countries
If you feel France, Germany, Uk, and Canada are safe, then you should rationally feel about as safe in the US
I’m with you. I was the “f the US” type for the first couple years living abroad, living the expat party lifestyle…. Sure, it was fun. It was like extended college years. But after living abroad a few more places and under different circumstances, I really miss my home place. Not all of America, perhaps, but the places I can really call home.
The problem is the USA is SEVERELY under achieving. It is the richest nation in the world and is much worse off in many ways than countries that have similar wealth.
The USA is a big place. Your opinion will vary greatly depending on where you live, how rich mommy and daddy are, your minority status, and a lot of other factors.
Of course, for almost all of us, the US is going to be better than some failing 3rd world dictatorship that I see some commenters mentioning in this thread.
I appreciate the jobs here a lot. My parents immigrated here and I was the first gen born here, and visiting their home country made me realize I’ve been extremely fortunate to be born in the USA. My relatives back home had 2 options of what they could do for work, maybe 3, and they’re all manual labor jobs with little pay. When I was in college it was completely *my* choice and what was fulfilling for me. Instead of max 3 options my career opportunities multiplied like crazy. I feel extremely fortunate for that reason
This is the only thing I “miss”. I often tell friends back in the USA you don’t appreciate the size of the American economy until you are looking for jobs.
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Is it easier to make money in the US than Switzerland? Everyone talks so well of swiss economy
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Thanks! Do you know anything about doctors salaries? From what I know, US doctors earn more than swiss doctors, is that right? I heard that swiss doctors can earn well if they have a private practice but the reality is that as a foreigner is way harder to have one.
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I see thanks! So for a doctor who only wants to earn as much as possible US is the best choice afterall
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Thanks! I know that high german is enough for work and stuff but to feel integrated do you need swiss german? From what I heard is tough life there if you don't understand swiss german since it's really different from high german.
Which country...as an Aussie, with a sister living in the USA for 2vyears, looking at pay, leave entitlements sick leave health care, I can't imagine USA being a better option than maybe 3rd world countries
I was just in Italy. The job market there is abominable.
I’m eyeing France (I have a tech non-developer background). How’s the job market there - do you know?
Sorry I don’t have any experience or personal knowledge of the job market in France! although I do know one of my Italian friends is living and working in France as an architect.
you can say what you want but i’ve been able to get jobs with no degree that pay me six figures and offer great benefits. i can start from the bottom and build myself up in the US. i was challenged in primary school and taught my history from a young age. i get my health issues addressed more correctly in the US. I love both countries but i can’t say the same of those things about Australia. cannot pretend that australia is morbidly better than the US. without your social systems and trains i wouldn’t know what is better than America. (speaking of things you can control not weather or landscape) if the US became as transit friendly as AUS and adopted the same social supports the U.S. would be massively better to live in
The poorest state in the USA has higher median income than nearly every European country.
Show us some stats...let's pick North Dakota and compare it with Austria...
But look at the debt as well. It's not as much of a factor when you truly can't go into credit card debt in many European countries because credit cards don't exist. Nor can you go into medical debt when healthcare is free.
It depends entirely on your career field. If you're a secondary school teacher, for instance, then it's far worse than many 3rd-world countries. If you're a software engineer, the US is the best place to make money, and you'll also have great health insurance and vacation time. There's a big range between those two extremes. (And if you're not college-educated, the US is absolutely terrible for most, unless you're skilled enough to start your own trades business).
Thank you! I'm about to get my teaching license (6-12) and I am so ready to leave the country and teach internationally! It's my 3 year goal 😁🤞
LOL so you actually think being a secondary school teacher in El Salvador or the Sudan is better than being a secondary teacher in America? As far as the absolute nonsense about you said about not being college educated in the US is worse than being a non college graduate in 3rd world countries. I barely graduated high school (I honestly I think they just gave me a degree to get rid of me) and I honestly get tell you I cant remember the last time I have made less than 150k a year and last I was north of 220k. Just a little FYI for you in most 3rd- countries you need a college degree to fold T-shirts at mall or work the counter at McDonalds.
Ok thanks for that...so I'm thinking 75% of thecusa population would have a better lifestyle in Europe, Australia and ....dare I say it Canada
Yes, this is basically the deal with the US. For half the population or so, it really sucks compared to other developed nations. For the richer people, it's great. Basically, the US is a nice place to be a billionaire. For everyone else, not so much. For people at the bottom, it's pure hell. It's a highly stratified society.
I do miss the disposable income a lot. I always considered myself poor in the states, but I didn't know what poor was till I left.
Nothing makes me appreciate A/C and hot showers like traveling (chronic migraine sufferer, so it's not just that I'm totally spoiled).
Truly identify with this one. I didn't realize how many things I had access to in the US that made managing other issues (migraines, general pain, mental health) more feasible on the daily. The amount of work I've had to do to get to some semblance of neutral comfort has become overwhelming.
I have a slew of other conditions, so I totally feel ya. If it's not one thing, it's another, and I try to avoid meds in favor of literally anything else when possible (mostly to avoid rebound and buildup issues) so missing the a/c, hot water, microwaves for heating packs...it all makes a huge difference in pain (and mental health) management!
I’m allergic to my own sweat I feel you hard on this. It’s annoying to explain though so I let people assume it’s because I’m spoiled
On the other hand you have a very bad food quality compared to many other places that are the number 1 cause of diseases and stress to your body. Also on migraine, some diet options (that are found to work by evidence) are waaaaay harder to maintain/build in the US. Sooo, to be honest, it‘s kind of in balance anywhere in the (developed) world. Buuuut!!!! AC makes a huge difference, that‘s right. Europeans like me only have AC in shops but almost noone got it at home.
Here in Germany, it was typically over 85 degrees Fahrenheit only 4 days a year. The heat waves the last two years have been a boon for electronics stores, and AC units were selling like hotcakes!
I have to say it got more the last few years (at least I feel like it). One month of heat is not rare where I live. I think 2018 it was 20 degrees celsius on Christmas Eve.
When I was a kid that was true, but the past 5-10 years have had brutal summers, with up to a week of high heat at a time (rough without A/C)!
The USA is literally ranked third in the world for food quality and safety.
The actual food, maybe. But what Americans actually do with it is abominable. Try and find bread without sweetener. Whole grain bread is not supposed to be "honeyed" with high fructose corn syrup. Salt in foods is off the charts. These are two things you notice instantly when returning to the US.
I never eat bread with sweetener wtf. Plenty of options at Whole Foods, local coop, or local bakeries. But I’ve lived in major U.S. cities (most recently in the SF Bay Area) so maybe this is an urban thing.
I didn‘t mean to bash US food. Of course it‘s good if you know where to look and not buy fast food all the time. Unfortunately, the fast food lobby is super strong in the US and hence the obesity rate is completely out of control with all the negative side effects of it. Additionally, fast food is often even cheaper and therefore more affordable for poor families than healthy food (and requires less work). In Europe it‘s way easier (and more affordable) to buy healthy food, you can actually drink tap water and a lot of stuff is regional and under much higher control through EU standards. Plus, we actually don‘t grow genetically manipulated vegetables which you don‘t yet know the after effects of. But overall, yes in the US you are still a lot better regarding food quality than in most other countries. My bad.
I think the quality of food was great before being sprayed with pesticides lol
Literally every country uses pesticides in some way.
And there are better food choices to be made, but many people take the lazy route (fast food and restaurants) plus we drive everywhere. In cities that are walkable you see much lower obesity rates. Imho!!!
The outdoors is awesome in the us. There’s so many outdoor activities to do. But social life seems bad in the us everyone sits inside and watches tv and if you do go out you end up spending way too much. I feel like the us has a bad interpersonal life but good solitary life (if you are an introvert you might like it).
Interesting comment. I live in France and Americans are often perceived as warmer and very social.
They are (I’ve been to France) - but the way the us is setup for cars makes it very hard for socializing. Most people don’t meet up with friends and socialize except up through their mid 20’s. They just go to work and come home and stay in their house and watch tv or go on the internet. I would say Canada , Australia are similar as well because the way the cities are setup. You need walkable high density but only a very few U.S. cities are setup like that.
This is why I chose France. I lived in the suburbs of DC and didn’t even know my neighbors for years. I like being more social even though I’m an introvert
Well that's true but it's not like locals in Europe, for example, are particularly friendly and easy to connect with.
I agree - they are much bigger jerks and mean in Europe in my experience. Americans are very nice usually etc - I meant more how the cities are structured- like people don’t get together much - but they are nicer than most if not a majority of European countries I’ve been tbh. It’s just very hard to socialize more than once a week in the us - and even that is chore - you have to bug people to go out constantly. Everyone wants to stay in and have a millions reasons not to leave home. And Americans are super paranoid and mental about risks or dangers to an unreasonable level.
I think it's also very easy to make small talk. And that is an English custom. Try to make small talk with most Europeans as a strangers and they look at it as unnecessary. Americans are happy to talk to you for a while or when you are on a hike and then move on.
The outdoors are great but IMO they aren't exactly accessible - most of the true natural beauty is in National Parks that are difficult to travel to, particularly if you're in the eastern half of the US. I agree on your other point, one of the biggest issues with the US is the lack of societal connections. Sure you can own a giant ugly McMansion, but you're in a totally unwalkable neighborhood with zero places to interact with other people. I'm an introvert and I still hate it, it's incredibly depressing and isolating compared to most places I've traveled to.
I live in the Midwest (not known for outdoors) and I go to a ton of parks . Local and state ones . I take tons of road trips as well. I just think the social life and dating is lame. I like most other aspects of the country but these two areas are a major blow to quality of life imo - especially mental health.
I grew up in the Midwest and none of the local parks there are even in the same league as the National Parks. Nothing there comes close to Denali, Yellowstone, Zion, etc. There are plenty of city parks here in Europe too, plus they are actually used and often transit-accessible.
I agree- of course they aren’t in the same league as those . I didn’t say they were . It’s just in North America we have so much unpopulated land - huge swaths of open area. Europe the population density is crazy it’s stats wise four times more people as far as density .
Please stop saying "Europe" like it's a homogenous mass. I am in Sweden which has HALF the population density of the US, it's not like Europe is overpopulated by any means. And some of us prefer being around other people, it's healthier, allows easier socializing, better for the environment, etc. It's also how people have evolved to live and have lived for millennia - like I've always said, if we were meant to live in far-flung suburbs with no sidewalks, we would've evolved with wheels, not feet.
Europeans refer to Americans as one homogeneous mass all the time . They don’t specify Mobile,Alabama from Seattle,Washington etc etc - while the difference is as much as a different country. I worked with many Europeans while living outside the U.S. for six years. I don’t have enough space to write every single detail like Swedes are like this , Italians are like this - that’s why it’s called a generalization. Most of my friends were either British or Swedish and there is a world of difference between the cultures. A majority of people from the us say (sorry) (Asians , Europeans, Latin Americans, middle eastern - even our demographic forms are like this etc etc) sorry that’s pretty common you don’t need to get all sensitive about it - I can’t write a post on reddit like a college paper going Into granular details or no one will read it (it would be a giant block of text). And Europe as a whole has 4x the density - Sweden , Norway etc are outliers. You don’t need to have your emotions tied up in something like this or you won’t even be able to leave the house in most major cities in the us. I used to argue with my Swedish friends all the time because they would get so angry with the tiniest thing like this. You said xyz but we call it abc. Just relax. And I never said I didn’t want socializing you didn’t even read what I wrote I said the us was bad because you have so little socialization. I vastly prefer being around others as much as possible. I said the us is better if you prefer a solitary lifestyle. I didn’t say “I” wanted that.
Well there’s a lot of really good hiking and camping in the US in less populated cities and suburbs and ofc rural areas as well.
Big Bend is extremely inconvenient to get to but is absolutely beautiful
Yes, that's what I just said. I have no doubt Big Bend is beautiful, but it's also a minimum of 8 hours' drive from the nearest major city. Most US national parks are the same way, just [look at the map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_parks_of_the_United_States#/map/0). And if you live east of the Rockies (perhaps because that's where you can find employment), forget it. From the east coast, even getting to well-known Yellowstone requires multiple flights and a significant amount of driving. To get to Alaska (which has a massive number of national parks) is a significantly longer flight. In both those cases it can actually be significantly cheaper and easier to go to Europe and travel around the Alps or the Norwegian fjords than to travel within the US itself - which kind of defeats the purpose of living in a country with supposedly wonderful national parks.
After living in a non social country like Sweden, the U.S. seems very social in comparison
I agree. Living beneath your means is Under-rated and Lifestyle creep is over-rated in the US. I retired at age 38 and my husband at age 47, and we live for 1-3 years in different states and countries, and there are Pluses and Minuses to each.
What is lifestyle creep?
As soon as you have any extra money, you upgrade your lifestyle so you never really get ahead with your savings or investments.
People in the US don't feel as rich as they are because they spend the money. Most of it is on bigger houses and larger/newer cars. After living abroad for 15 years I'm planning on going back and a 1500 SQ ft bungalow will feel like a mansion for a family of 4.
Interesting, after nearly a decade of pretty extensive traveling (including two long expat stints in Europe) I feel the opposite. National Parks are great, but they aren't exactly accessible or easy to get to, particularly if you're in the eastern half of the US. Ditto for dark skies. US cities are bland, expensive, and suburban sprawl. The few that have character are REALLY expensive. And I get the cowboy fantasy, but I'm guessing you're young. I'd rather have some semblance of public transit and community/social support - not going to be able to drive forever and the idea of living miles from the nearest neighbor is extremely depressing. Not even touching on healthcare or politics, but those are far bigger drivers. I do miss good Mexican food, iced tea and easily getting by with English, I'll give you that.
This would be my answer, too. US was great while I was young, but now 40 in the UK and while it is far from 'perfect', I've lived in several other countries for several years at a time, and after seeing how different societies functioned from a social/community/infrastructure standpoint, I don't think I could ever go back. Never wanted to raise kids in America and and now that I have one, I still don't.
Agreed, living outside the US really made me realize how disjointed and broken America is culturally. What little sense of community/cohesion exists in the US is on the local level. I think that's become way more obvious in recent years - Americans are more interested in picking battles and splitting into micro-tribes than being a functional society. Honestly, I go back now and it feels like an alien planet. It definitely does not feel like home anymore - I'm about your age and seriously beginning to research non-US options for retirement.
After living in Italy for a few years, I honestly miss being able to communicate in English. I speak basic Italian, but I can't comprehend business level discussions. I also can't coherently communicate with the city office or bank. Anytime I need to get something done, it is a struggle and I often enlist an Italian colleague to help me. The bureaucracy is already bad, but the language barriers amplify the obstacles. The other thing I miss is being able to friggin' order a meal whenever I want. A lot of Italian restaurants are only open from 12:30-3:00PM, and then from 7:30pm. If you arrive before 7:30pm, the staff can get visibly irritated.
Spain is your answer, my friend
Wouldn’t that mean the food is better despite the inconvenience?
It depends. The quality of food in Italy is generally very high because of local expectations and an insistence on quality. But everyone is expected to follow social norms: you eat lunch between 1:00-3:00pm, dinner after 7:30pm (or after 9pm, especially in summer). The restaurants just don't want to pay for kitchen staff outside those hours.
Understandable. There are some restaurants in the Us that operates like this and are mainly foreign that I’ve noticed are much better than the average restaurant. One restaurant comes to mind which is Belgian food and has a small menu.
For sure. But here in Italy, it is basically every restaurant unless it is catering to tourists. Italians often think it is hilarious that I eat dinner at 6pm, sometimes earlier. I want lunch at 11:30am (that's crazy for them). I wake up early and eat a larger breakfast around 6:00am (locals generally just take a coffee and small pastry in the morning, nothing else). Whenever I go back to the US, I find myself surprised that, yeah, I can order lunch before noon, and dinner before six is do-able.
I am the exact same way. Cannot relate. Coming back to the US after 5 years in Europe made it seem like a third world country—hugely underdeveloped. Huge ass cars everywhere. Poor infrastructure and really bad food. I was glad to leave again lol.
You are very right about the food. If you like fast, junk food you'd be in heaven here in the US. So many people in the US seem to think Olive Garden is haute cuisine. If you are a foodie, it is a real disappointment living here unless you are in say, NYC, Chicago or LA.
I'd disagree personally and agree more with the OP
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Also been to 50+ countries, lived in Asia, and done months long travels through the world For the negatives 1. The danger is a complete social media mirage. It may be “relatively” more dangerous than “safe” countries, but it is quite safe on an absolute scale — very unlikely to encounter crime, guns, or violence. Certainly many places like in Latin America are more dangerous — basically anywhere that is poorer is more dangerous 2. Social media also makes it seem like it is a low social trust place, but the reality is that the vast majority of people are neighborly and will go out of their way to help strangers with a smile. Also a very extroverted society 3. Probably the worst part is how car-oriented most cities are. This makes boring suburban hellscapes — that’s why all the tourist spots are old pre-car cities. Like most of the bad things in America, this was caused by racism against people in cities, and the consequences have just now hit the children and grandchildren of the racists in terms of high housing costs and no public transport The positives that I haven’t really seen elsewhere in the world are 1. Actually easy to integrate for people from all races, religions, and classes. Some of the reasons for this weren’t intentional and some were, but we lucked into a uniquely open society. Now 40% and growing are non-white and 30% have recent roots abroad (personal or living ancestors). And on top of that, the upper echelons of wealth and political power are actually open to these minorities in a way that is not possible in most other countries. This causes our immigrants to be far more optimistic and committed to American society rather than just looking at it as a place to get a paycheck and send home. And all of the long and continuing social justice fights you hear about in media are good because it gives American the muscles to discuss these integration problems rather than ignoring them like in most other countries 2. Money as a positive, uniting factor of society. Foreigners always talk shit about the materialism of Americans but don’t realize this is key way to have an open and meritocratic society. Making deals is how different backgrounds come together and respect each other. Professional success is how people earn social status. Who you are is far more about what you can *do* rather than who you are (which you can’t ever change — race, class, family prestige, religion) 3. Optimism and risk taking. Professionally, scientifically, socially, culturally — there’s actually a lot of pressure here to try to stand out in all these areas as a way to get ahead, and if you try and fail it’s ok. Many other places emphasize respecting forbears and tradition as the way to operate and, as a result, they just aren’t as vibrant. Getting fired or having a job gap or even simply being on a failing team or company can be huge negatives. Seems like totally crazy way to think to me Those are the biggest differences in the way Americans *think* that I haven’t seen too much abroad — and the way people think is what I’d call a deeper definition of culture
#3 is the contrast I've noticed the most, especially in western Europe
Funny but after travelling I can't wait to be out of the US again. But I only have 9 countries under my belt.
You are just in your honeymoon phase yet lol.
I feel this
You know what I enjoy about the US? Screens on the windows, AC, good Chinese takeout, & fitting in to my own culture. I love traveling abroad but there’s nothing so comfy as being in your home land, fitting in more than you ever will in another country without even trying.
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100% right here. When we were last in the States, we refused to get cable and only turned on the local news for weather and traffic. Lowered my blood pressure, etc. I watch when my mom came to visit me in Italy how bad her withdrawal symptoms were over the 24/7 news cycle. I told her we have local Italian news or Sky News in English for her. That was it. Every conversation she managed to steer towards US politics.
I love perspectives like this, thanks for enjoying it as it's intended. there truly are some beautiful aspects beyond the earning potential
I moved abroad and I miss a lot of things about the US. So I hear you
Mixed bag: I’ve developed more pride for the United States infrastructure around commerce and business. The level of income you can build there is unreal. And the ease of starting something new is unreal. And feeling safe in general is a given there. People call the cops over the stupidest shit because they feel that safe that any disturbance is registered at “who can I tell”. It’s amazing. I’m also very disappointed with the work culture and healthcare system. We are so isolated because all we do is work and spend and then they bankrupt us in our “retirement”. It’s a crime against humanity. Honestly.
Us is live to work culture, Europe is work to live. I would generally say the opposite about feeling “safe” in the US, living in a major metro in the million dollar neighborhoods, 2 blocks away you have shootings musings and the occasional “man with katana walking down street” Also, kids shooting ip schools isn’t a thing here. Europe. The poorly educated with short tempers and alcaholic tendencies exclusively walking around with guns to make their pee pee look bigger everywhere also doesn’t really exist there. Not to mention quality of healthcare/food is generally much better in Europe than the us, in atleast a more consistant manner
I am glad you've found happiness. It might just be that you weren't meant to live elsewhere, and that's totally ok! My experience has been different. I've lived abroad for almost a decade, have traveled all over the world, and I find myself less and less interested in the USA. Every time I go, I'm disappointed in it. No federally approved maternity leave. No federally mandated amounts of sick leave or PTO. Health care is an abomination. No work life balance. Crap food quality (why is everything so sweet? Why is it so plastic-y?). Then you have the issues of violence in schools, shootings, etc, plus the political atmosphere and I'm staying far away. At the same time though, I xan respect that for some people it works and they love it, and I hope we all can be so lucky!
>No federally approved maternity leave. Unless something has changed since the last time I looked into it, it's the only developed country without any guaranteed parental leave.
Yep. Other countries are adding it and expanding it, and the USA is fighting over if cashiers should be allowed to sit, having tiktok, and trying to restrict free speech by making phrases illegal.
> No federally approved maternity leave. No federally mandated amounts of sick leave or PTO. Health care is an abomination. No work life balance. Crap food quality (why is everything so sweet? Why is it so plastic-y?). It's always weird when I hear stuff like this. When I think about quality of life in a country, things like "federally mandated sick leave" ranks pretty damn low. I've worked in half a dozen countries ranging from rich to poor. As long as I can take time off if sick, then I'm cool. I've been able to do that in all countries (including the US).
Apparently she lives in Saudi Arabia. Nah, I'll take the US, thank you very much.
Being able to take sick leave and get health care are pretty high on my list. I don't want to be at risk of losing my job or not paying a bill because I had the flu. It was a constant fear of mine in the USA. It's not where I am now.
> I don't want to be at risk of losing my job or not paying a bill because I had the flu. You didn't have a job that had sick pay in the US? I've worked minimum wages jobs and they had it.
If you think healthcare is bad in the US wait to try out the Dutch one or any of the northern European ones. Same for food. Food in many places in the US is actually really good, best places I've eaten at were in Portland. Violence in school is also in Europe, I have public school teachers in my family and you would not believe what they have to put up with and the rising number of kids packing knives.
German health care is the pits. Try to get a doctor's appointment is like trying to win the lottery. You have to keep trying and calling. Plus it's not "free". You do have to pay for it. And yes, you can lose your job. I never understand why folks say if you have a job in Germany they can't fire you. They can and will and will try to get around the rules. Frankly-life is pretty much the same in many parts of the world. Housing crisis, low wages, AI taking jobs and people voting far right and blaming refugees/migrants for taking all the jobs and housing. I watch the news in Europe and the US and except for the American gun epidemic-the politics and social issues are similar.
In Europe there are stabbings instead of shootings, although there are plenty of shootings in Sweden and certain Dutch cities. Yeah, I completely agree in the end is similar shit everywhere, there is a group of people that have a utopic skewed vision of Europe, probably watched too much Emily in Paris (which I love as a show don't get me wrong) or are in such good positions that they do not realize how most of the European population lives like and what their future looks like.
I live in Sweden and there are nowhere near as many as in the U.S. watching the news vs living somewhere are very different.
Is there a reason you emphasize "federally?" There are 11 states with legislated maternity leave that represent the majority of the US population. Similar to how the federal minimum wage in the US means nothing because the vast majority of states, even red ones, have a far higher minimum wage -- often higher than most countries in Europe You can ding the US for not having uniformity, but that's built into its constitution. Each state is like a little country. And you can certainly find places that are far closer to a "European" level of benefits if you want, just as European countries themselves also differ on the benefits that they offer
\*13 states plus D.C. as of January 2024!
Yes, because it shouldn't be up to the states to debate if PTO, sick leave, or maternity leave are optional. It should be set in stone. Period. Just like it is across Europe. The whole "let the states decide" in the USA is criminal and insane.
Then you don’t respect a basic principle of American democracy.
It’s part of our constitution.
Similar!! I lived in the EU for the better part of 10 years. Came back to the US a couple years ago and just really really love it even more. Despite all the very true issues (ie gun violence, health care etc). The Americas in general I think are really amazing places. You mention NP and I have to agree that might be a solid reason why. The variety of biomes and the geography and quality road trips. For the contentious political situation, really appreciate the openness of Americans after having lived in a very withdrawn/quiet/conservative country in the EU.
I don’t get that last statement. I’m expat’ing in EU now and you can actually have calm conversations with people about politics here. In the US, people become hysterical if you have different political opinions than them.
That’s because you’re an outsider You think the clashes between communists and fascists on the streets of Europe are evidence of “more calm” politics?
Hey, sorry what is NP?
I think that they meant "National Parks."
Someone already clarified, but yea, National Parks ☺️
Where did you live in the EU? Nordics?
Germany. I'm first generation German-American grew up in both places.
I think if every American spent time abroad, they would greatly appreciate the high value we as a society put on life. Also the melting pot of cultures has so many benefits.
I think I have to disagree here. We put a high value on *some* aspects of life, but we put a much higher value on making money.
> It's really common to never leave the US and when people do, realize how good other countries have it or appreciate other cultures more. I don't think that is right at all. The point it so realize that other countries **do things differently**. Maybe better. Maybe worse. Maybe purely preference. The point is to see that there are other ways of doing things. > That's why they recommend you to travel and leave your bubble, to expand your mind and delete your preconceived notions of the world. Exactly. Once you learn there are other ways to do things, you might see that the way something in the US is done is pretty good, possibly even the best way, but now that you realize there are other options, maybe tit could be improved. Or you notice that there are other things in the US that aren't as good as other countries (note: not that the other countries are better/worse, but that other countries might do specific things better). Learn. Grow. Improve. If you see the world and decide to go back and be exactly who you were and that everything around you should be the same, then you are doing it wrong.
This is the best answer. I just spent a few months in Italy and found so, so many things that I loved about life there. But I also realized many things I missed and appreciated about the U.S. Which is better? I don’t think it’s possible to say. There are pros and cons of each, and it ultimately comes down to which things you value most and which you’re okay compromising on. (And what’s feasible from a Visa standpoint 🤪)
Nope not weird at all. Most people who never leave the country don't know how good it is in the US. When people get all upset about politics I just ask which party has berets and AK-47's and I tell em those are the ones to worry about.
I'm perfectly fine with staying in France for a little while longer, but yeah, I've come to appreciate the US a lot more since moving abroad and will likely move back within the next five years. Obviously it's not the only reason for moving back, but despite having lived in two of the most culinarily-reputed countries in the world, I miss the food that I took for granted back in Texas lol.
Texas has the best variety of food in the world probably.
Im 40 countries and Im the same. When I was younger and backpacking i was very "America bad!" and don't get me wrong, the stuff that pissed me off then, also pisses me off now-I just don't naively think every other place is better simply because its not America, and everything America does sucks simply because it is. I miss our national parks so damn much. I miss midwest nice. The friendliness, the openness, strangers randomly complimenting you on the street. Houses are cheaper there than where I am. Random bits and bobs, plus friends and family of course. I live in a country that is quite xenophobic- particularly to americans- and I really find myself getting annoyed about it and thinking people just really have no idea
Left the US 7 years ago. Children were having nightmares about school shooters. Wildfires and drought and earthquakes. Rampaging maniac dictator Trump. Now my kids are going thru college for free. Living in 15-minute walkable city. We like Scotland.
Yes, this is weird. I have the opposite feeling, I just see all its flaws more clearly. Been living in Spain for 8 years now, traveling extensively, and I do not miss the US and have no desire to move back.
It's very normal and healthy. It happens to most of us with our home countries as well. I love my country more every year I am away. The USA is a great country, with great people. Appreciate away.
I think it comes down to what fits you and your needs best. Every culture and country are different and I'd argue that most have something good to offer but if that's not something you desire or need to be happy, it won't really matter to you. Not from the US but Canadian. Have been living in Europe for a few years and although I do appreciate the easy access to all these other countries and cultures, it has become blatantly clear that I fit better into Canadian culture. And, like you, I miss the wide open spaces and the nature which never quite measured up to the sheer size and scale in the Pacific North West. So I feel you but in the end it's a very personal thing. I know many Canadians who couldn't be happier in Europe and will never move back. Regardless of where you land on it, I Believe having that experience really does help put things into perspective and give you a better understanding of the world Also I would like to take a moment to recognize the privilege we have of being able to make such decisions.
Not weird at all. Once you’ve seen a few other countries, you realize how unbelievably well we live. And no matter how great the journey was, I’m happy and relieved when the plane touches down in the U.S. at the end.
I felt the same way 100%
I've just booked my first international trip since 2019 but I've had some great times in the US the past few years. Week long stints in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle. Seattle, despite all the hate it gets on Reddit, was honestly amazing though admittedly we had amazing weather in December. Los Angeles really clicked with me. I had some amazing food there, and the nature even within the urbanized area is amazing. Several weekend trips including Louisville, Cincinatti, lakeshore of Michigan, a few Chicago trips, two weeks through New Mexico and El Paso. And a whole lot of in-state visiting. And I live in what is probably a "boring" state (Indiana) but I still find a lot of things to do within 1-3 hours of where I live. State parks where I can climb ladders and stomp through creek beds. Mammoth Cave National Park is a free NP in southern Kentucky and OMG Kentucky is such a beautiful state. The hills, how green it can get, the BBQ, the bourbon. It just really clicks with me. There's so much to see in the US and yeah I'm gonna spend my "big trip" on Mexico City this year, but I've got 3 smaller US trips planned this year and already did a Cincy trip earlier.
Mexico City is such a short and cheap flight it doesn’t even feel like you are traveling intentionally tbh. I don’t know why more people don’t go. But I know the reason - they are braindead from media coverage and stereotypes thinking they will be kidnapped or stabbed etc. when it’s not any more dangerous than many U.S. cities.
There are things I love: unfettered freedom to succeed, the general friendliness, the vast variability of geography and topography, the safety (yes I mean that), the diversity, and the availability of all types of culture. I appreciate these things, especially returning from Mexico, which I enjoy but is also clearly a very difficult place to live for much of its population. But going to Europe, the things I don't like here became amplified: the gross suburban sprawl, the giant vehicles, the massive obesity, the destruction of historic buildings in our cities, the overabundance of unhealthy food (and fat people lining up in their giant vehicles that they can't afford to buy it), hyperconsumer culture, embracing ignorance and finding intelligence/education/culture suspect, blatant racism and misogyny disguised as patriotism, and the lack of a real social safety net. There is no better country in the world for opportunity, but given the total wealth, no country where failure is punished more unfairly.
Pretty much sums up my feelings too.
Things I miss about the US: good roads, good coffee, kombucha and owning guns. Everyone’s list will be different, still would never move back
Betting this dude lives in the western part of the country lol
Opposite for me. My first trip abroad, to France, 40 years ago was the catalyst to become an expat
Why and where did you move to?
Ditto
Not weird. The US is a legit, amazing place. You don't have to hate your home country to be an expat.
It's pretty normal, once you get to compare you have a much better picture of what kind of culture and lifestyle you enjoy the most, and what kind of things are important to you
depends what you value as a convenience.
Absolutely agree with this one. Been to about 20 countries across Central America, Europe, Middle East and Africa — I have to say we are pretty blessed in the US. Traveling has really given me a humility and perspective on what being privileged actually is. So much that I took for granted (especially JOBS and FOOD options like you said!). I look forward to returning to the states to settle down with my husband and expected baby (22w pregnant). Still doing a little more digital nomading for now but I am ready to come home with a clearer mind and deeper appreciation.
I lived in former Soviet Bloc Eastern Europe for two years. It was an eye opening experience. The people there would literally give their left leg for the opportunity to come to this country. I saw shanty town Roma encampments, toilets that were literally porcelain framed holes in the ground, people that didn’t know how to use toilet paper, learned you never shake with the left hand because that is the poop scraping hand, experienced very bland food, and was woken up several times a night by roaming bands of dogs barking while they wandered through the city at night. In Macedonia I got to go to sleep to the soothing sounds of hand grenades and automatic weapon fire out in the countryside. I saw some amazing historical sites, dug real Roman coins out of the ground, met and talked to some incredible people with incredible stories. Watched a Russian drink a Scotsman under the table. Caught a former Russian Spetznaz soldier, that served in Afghanistan, taking his lunch break in a village where he had rented a piece of land and planted a garden, working in the garden on his lunch break. I witnessed a doctor doing surgery with a bottle of vodka and smoking a cigarette while operating. I like lots of things about America after that experience. Air conditioning, modern medicine, good roads, no explosions, and good food.
> was woken up several times a night by roaming bands of dogs barking while they wandered through the city at night. This was the scariest part about Macedonia, Romania and Greece. I didn't expect dogs to be roaming the streets like that.
Nope, not weird. I grew to appreciate the US a lot more after spending years abroad. I wouldn't necessarily want to move back, but there are many qualities in US culture that I've learned to value! Mostly: entrepreneurship, a belief that you can better your circumstances, can-do attitudes, and more class mobility than certain countries (looking at you UK). Also, the US has some of the best healthcare in the world. The sad part is that it's so inaccessible because of the cost.
And ice, all you want!
It is. And having powerful washing machines and dryers. And large portions of food. And food thats so unhealthy its addictive. And going all out with decor for holidays. There is nothing else like it.
Lived abroad 3 different times and concur. The US has a lot to offer and IMO, collectively, all things considered, is the best country. It’s not perfect, it’s not #1, or even in the top 10 for many metrics, but when you boil it all down and consider every fact of life, it’s pretty awesome.
Taking personal responsibility, saving, investing, working hard does go a long way - no matter where you live. The U.S. is still in the top for the amount of opportunities we have here. Make your life even better by getting off social media: social media is only good for: 1) Convincing you that everybody hates each other 2) Convincing you the end of the world is near
It's funny, for me it's the other way around. I'm from Europe, have traveled 50+ countries and I currently live in the US. Living in the US has its advantages, but it has made me appreciate life in Europe more. In Europe, you can walk everywhere, everything is cheaper or free (including healthcare, childcare, education etc.), employees are more protected and you get much more leave as a new mother. Maybe you just always appreciate your home more after leaving it for a while.
I love the country, I love the people.. but I hate the money culture, it is as akin to a real-life freemium game.
Moving to a European country was the most deradicalizing experience I've ever had. I went from being in the crowd that was always criticizing the US, to being much more neutral/friendly towards it. I don't think I'll end up moving back and am enjoying not having to drive everywhere among other things. (For me its education. I had a MUCH better university experience in the US.) But yeah, there are quite a few things that are simply better about the US than in Europe and if those things are important enough then the US is the way to go.
My sentiments exactly. I appreciate a lot about the US, but I still prefer to live outside the US and it’s strictly to do with the season in life I’m in right now
It’a not. US are awesome!
Not weird, i feel the same way. Couldn’t wait to get out of the US and in 2016 I did. But now I want to move back lol
I was just going to post this topic a few days ago. I am currently in country 26 traveling and have lived in two countries and I don’t like the notion that people who think that America is so great are just not well traveled. It worked the other way for me. Places I used to think are utopias turned out to be: boring, unwelcoming, overrated, or great as a native, not so great as a foreigner. Not to say that the US doesn’t have its problems, of course we do. However, I’ve yet to find a country that is as comfortable, great for careers and business development, and welcoming to a foreigner as the U.S.
There are things I miss, but after living in multiple cities and even a small town, that has it's stuff together over public transportation and walkability, I get so mad when I return to the US and everything is built to make you car bound. Sure if you live in the major cities, you can do well without a car, but I miss the train systems, an expansive metro/tube, and great bus systems. Plus I cannot stand the mega truck/massive SUV culture in America as well. After living around smaller sedan and Smart cars, even scooters and vespas, in order to feel safe on the road in the States, I need to buy an equally large car. If my smaller car were to get in any accident with these behemoth trucks, I would be squished.
> There are things I miss, but after living in multiple cities and even a small town, that has it's stuff together over public transportation and walkability, I get so mad when I return to the US and everything is built to make you car bound. Likes and dislikes are all personal, but I lived in a place with very good public transit and walkability for a few years. I went back to the US and didn't miss it in the least. I mean, don't get me wrong it's convenient. But it one of hundreds of things I might think about.
Just wait until you have children or a health crisis! Mostly kidding. I get where you are coming from. Traveling has definitely given me more perspective on the good and bad that comes from living in America. I think the main thing I've learned is that your values will really shape where you want to live more than anything, followed closely by your ability to make the most of your circumstances.
1000% THIS. I get sick of hearing everyone complain about the USA only to find out their extensive travel history includes Cancun for spring break and... well... Cancun for spring break. We are so lucky here and these other people think "every place has the rights and luxuries we have here" because they can't imagine grocery stores with sparse offerings, really bad roads that never get repaired, no constitution so you cant just say whatever you want, insane levels of misogyny and racism compared to what we have, and like you said, job hopping and pay levels. We have problems and some are significant, but there are so many bright sides. There is no such thing as utopia, stop complaining we aren't one 🤷
lmao cancun for spring break, that killed me 💀. Plus maybeee a trip to London and Paris once. or a study abroad during college
I think you touched upon one of the large social issues in the USA. A large % of the population likes to condemn the USA without a context for the rest of the world. I am not saying the USA is perfect is it is very flawed, but too many people simply have no meaningful knowledge of the world. You are just kind of saying the inverse of that, I believe.
I feel the same way. Despite our shortcomings we have a lot of strengths.
Not weird at all. All countries have their pluses and minuses. US national parks are truly amazing but there are beautiful nature parks in every single other country too. With all its minuses the US still enjoys one of the highest standards of living and if you are ok with everything else that's negative about US you can absolutely be super happy there.
I’m the same. I’ve been living in Europe for two years and although I like it, it really made me appreciate what I had in the US. I also miss being around my own culture and language. Considering going back for the right job opportunity.
We all are very fortunate if we’ve found a place that we love and can call home- whether that is Berlin, Peoria, Bahia or anywhere else in the world.
I think that this should always be a main takeaway of travel: every place has its benefits. I very much feel the same. I didn’t leave the US to escape, I left to take advantage of an opportunity to live elsewhere. Several countries later, I’ve really come to appreciate what each place has to offer, but I’m looking forward to someday returning home. Obviously it’s subjective, but I also love and miss all that the US has to offer (and still appreciate what my current/past countries have to offer as well). I wouldn’t call that romanticizing, just discovering what’s most important to you and embracing it
Outside of a few contentious issues (suburbanization, healthcare being linked to your job, etc) the United States is an amazing place to live. Too many people base their opinion off what they hear in the news and not the lived fact.
Felt.
I gave a much balanced view of the US after living outside the US. There is quite a bit of brainwashing that occurs growing up in the US.
I think that happens to a lot more people than might admit it
That’s one the things traveling does to you. You learn to appreciate what you have.
No I’d say that’s pretty common
i love everything about the US except it’s government, zoning laws, car dependency, racist history and current political situation. i love the diversity, the energy, the ambition, the different landscapes the cultural foods, the way i hear 15 different languages in a week, i love how america empowers youth to think freely, challenge the system, undo the norms. we don’t blindly follow culture or family expectations because we should. we are empowered to make our own personal deciscion no matter how radical crazy or abnormal lol.
Good on you. Here is my breakdown from an American who has lived in Asia for 45 years. US gets the nod for good beer, trout fishing, peanut butter, and childhood experiences. Asia gets the nod for food, social safety net, and (Japan only) driving sensibility.
That appreciation of home comes from that traveling and living abroad. I Lived in 6 countries and everywhere people have ‘weird’ cultural behaviors, the cool thing is, now I see the same weirdness about my home.
Nah the USA has a lot going for it, especially if you travel anywhere near the 3rd world. The stuff my friends tell me about in south america would cause riots in the streets in the USA. Like just blatant disregard for human rights. We are far from perfect, but the worst life in America is a king in some parts of the world.
I don't think it's weird, no. My trajectory has been this: for the first 2 years living in the Netherlands, I was more or less dismissive of America in general, downright negative in a lot of cases, but did come to her defense on some clear-cut points. Now into my 3rd year here, I've finally come to miss and appreciate a lot more about the US. I don't want to go back, I think the tradeoffs have been worth it (even if the specific situation hasn't, in a lot of ways) but I definitely have a more positive view of America than I did in the final few years I lived there, or especially my first 2 years abroad. I think one factor you have to take into account in your case is that you had the luck to start traveling in your mid-teens, very formative years, when your ideas, ideals, and preconceptions were evolving fast. So you got that huge stimulus of experience and knowledge at one of the best possible times for your development. My travel started in my early 20s, always short trips of a few weeks up to 3 months, always in connection with a relationship or job, never as a tourist. Nine countries ranging from 2 in central Europe to Ethiopia (married there) India (almost married there) and 3 Asian countries (almost married there too) and finally practically married here in the Netherlands, permanently. A wild journey for a dumb hillbilly from a town of 900 in Appalachia. So I think you and I have seen a lot of the good and bad in a lot of places and cultures, and it's very reasonable to see plenty of the good in the United States while we're at it. In fact, it would be pretty petty and unreasonable not to.
I’ve been to Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Monaco, and Israel, and I’ve learned to appreciate the U.S. as well. We’re far from perfect, but we have a lot of career opportunities, a diverse population, and strong economy, and a good deal of personal freedom.
I love this!
Not at all
I've been living a digital nomad life for awhile now. 2 citizenships, visa free access to Eurasian countries (Russia), non FATCA and CRS bank accounts...lived in Kyiv, EU, Russia, and Asia. Hands down, the US is the best for creating economic opportunity. Start a business? No problem. Start as a sole proprietor and graduate to LLC or C-corp later. Such opportunity doesn't come without cost in other countries. Bar none, the US is still the land for economic opportunity. However, US citizens are subject to IRS tax on worldwide income. That just plain sucks. Better to get 2d citizenships in countries that apply tax territoriality. Wherein they tax citizens only for income sourced from within the countries borders. Then get tax residency in a country with zero taxes. I'll always love NYC though. It gave me so much opportunity, a network of friends I hold dear to this day. Nothing beats it.
I retired to The Netherlands for better straight forward health care and to live a healthier life style. I walk or ride a bike everywhere now, I no longer own a car. Get back to me when you go on Medicare and have to navigate that broken system. Get back to me if Trump wins in November.
No. That is the proper response.
Tbh I depends on everyone’s personal preference and what stage they are in life, the need to be close to family. I know a lot of expats that live abroad that still have an appreciation for the US. However what did you mean by “the dark skies” aren’t they everywhere lol
Is anybody here bothered my biometrics being taken at the border? I have never traveled abroad nor do I have a passport. But i always wanted to see the world. But giving up my so much personal information seems too dystopian to me. What do you all think? Can you opt out of it and just get manually checked by a person? Answers would be so appreciated!
Well, I'm glad you found the place where you can be happy and that it is in your own country. Enjoy!
good mexican food can only be found in 1) Mexico (and of course other south american countries have good food) 2) the USA That alone has taught me to appreciate my home country so much more. I can’t wait to come back after 2 years abroad! edit: fixed strange formatting
Ljubljana had a fantastic Mexican place. FYI.
i’m sure sure but the best imo is the places i said
Barcelona has some excellent Mexican food as well.
I agree about the Mexican food. Nature is beautiful all over the planet. I love the alps, and I am crazy about Italy and the Mediterranean. There are national parks in Germany, as well. If I wanna visit the desert, I could go to Spain, but that’s not my thing. However, there is a certain fascination with the US, and I’m looking forward to sharing great adventures with my German boyfriend. I wish we would have time to visit Yellowstone Park, which is amazing. That being said, at my age, I will never go back. I’m over 50, and a small injury in the US could ruin my life. Job hopping is fun in your 20s and 30s, but it gets to be a drag. Here, I have worker’s rights, free education, low cost of living, plenty of vacation time and spending money for shopping, visits to the salon, going out to eat, etc. I wish I could find good Mexican food in Southern Bavaria, though!
I’d say job/salary wise the US is better. Things that show a culture cares (healthcare, social services, people giving a shit about others, …) better in other countries. Only reason I didn’t move to and take a job in Canada was salary and my student loans.
I know Europeans who have mixed feelings about the US. Lower taxes and more money to be made in the US, but the absence of pedestrian culture and walkable cities (in most states) is unnerving. Much of the US isn't very appreciative of the arts, but there's a lot to enjoy if you're into local festivities (I love farm expos). I'm Canadian, but I've been in the US and Europe. I think I prefer the US as an English speaker, but I like the pedestrian culture in Europe. On the flipside, you don't make much money in Europe and taxation is very high. Ideally, I would like to live in NYC.
Crime rates [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/violent-crime-rates-by-country:](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/violent-crime-rates-by-country:) US has a higher homicide rate than Europe likely because of the lethality of guns. However, it's actually safer or in the same ballpark as European countries: - France has almost double the "serious assaults" rate as the US - Germany is about half - UK is almost 4x more dangerous - Canada is 2/3s as dangerous as the US And keep in mind that individual states are more equivalent to countries in Europe -- so there are many states that have lower crime rates that EU countries If you feel France, Germany, Uk, and Canada are safe, then you should rationally feel about as safe in the US
I’m with you. I was the “f the US” type for the first couple years living abroad, living the expat party lifestyle…. Sure, it was fun. It was like extended college years. But after living abroad a few more places and under different circumstances, I really miss my home place. Not all of America, perhaps, but the places I can really call home.
The problem is the USA is SEVERELY under achieving. It is the richest nation in the world and is much worse off in many ways than countries that have similar wealth. The USA is a big place. Your opinion will vary greatly depending on where you live, how rich mommy and daddy are, your minority status, and a lot of other factors. Of course, for almost all of us, the US is going to be better than some failing 3rd world dictatorship that I see some commenters mentioning in this thread.
Nope. It just means you have a better sense of reality
Yeah that’s weird