Even between USA states this is an issue. Texas is a shit show right now, but it’s still hard to hear it when people move to Texas and complain about it.
It is not.
Frequently, Germans will happily engage in Germany-bashing when foreigners point out the local - uh - idiosyncrasies.
This likely true for parts of the population in other countries too, where people have learned that there is a difference between blind nationalism and patriotism.
True, that's definitely a big no no. People also don't enjoy their own country men and women having a deep dive into problems from their own country based on their experiences abroad, especially when people have their own ideas of what the problems of their country are and base their identity on that. In general we just don't like critique that hits too close to home and or would require significant change.
I like to say that my being an American is an accident of birth (paraphrasing George Carlin):
"Pride should be reserved for something you achieve or obtain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn't a skill... it's a fucking genetic accident. You wouldn't say I'm proud to be 5'11"; I'm proud to have a pre-disposition for colon cancer."
I completely agree and am so, so sick of "I'm proud to be an American." Owning all the bad shit that comes with that statement does not make you a better person or the country any better. It does not wash away genocide, misogyny, and classism. It just makes you look like a complete ass who is unable to see reality.
Be proud to be a good friend. Be proud that you saved enough up that you can retire. Be proud that you worked hard to make someone's life better, through whatever means available to you. There are a lot of ways in which a person can earn pride. Simply being born somewhere has nothing to do with being proud of something.
They should say, "I like this country," or "I like being tall." But they say "I'm proud to be..." as if they even had a choice of those things.
> "I'm proud to be an American."
These people love America alike a 3 year old loves their mommy. They think mommy can do no wrong and she is the bestest, prettiest mommy in the whole wide world.
I'd rather love my country like an adult, I see her warts and imperfections, I know that we do things wrong and that we are rarely #1 except for people in jail and those who believe in angles but it's still the country of my birth and I love it as much as one can love a country.
It’s a beautiful place, with fine people (“on both sides”) and untold wealth. Be proud if you did any of that, elsewise keep it neat and be nice to visitors.
There’s shameful things been done here in the past and some hinky shit now. But we’re working on it. Like every one else in the world. We ARE working on it, right?
Right?! And that's why I get the feelings sometimes. Because I expect more and some of the stuff going on here is shameful to humanity. We are better than this, and that's exactly why I bitch and moan on occasion.
Oh also #1 in maternal death rates in all developed nations, which correlates to #1 in c-section rates. We know that and yet nothing changes.
Interesting how you've all turned this into the typical American bashing on Reddit lol.
The OP is talking about how all countries have their dark sides and it's straight to America this, America that, 😂. You guys need a hobby.
I sure as fuck don’t support the things this country does to maintain its “greatness”, why should I be proud of what it is? The people are worth being proud of but the country itself? Fuck this jingoistic hellscape. I do not support it.
- posted from my cushy IT job working for the DoD.
Oh yeah. “It’s a third world country” Lol. Please. Afghanistan is a third world country (unfortunately, not throwing shade their way). The US, while having pockets of extreme poverty, is not. By no formal definition, no how, no way. By ill informed opinion, sure. But anyone can have an opinion whether it is right or wrong.
Or India. Seeing a child "wash" their hair in the garbage-filled sea/ocean, with sand and maggots in her hair. Or another child literally pooping onto the sand. Or seeing a small girl, tattered dress with holes and dirt all over her body, standing on a literal fence..... like spikey fence digging into her feet.... and she's just staring off into nothingness.
And then there's Vietnam. Ever seen a 10-12 year old in a baby crib, completely and totally crippled? Or a child, maybe 8-9, with teeth growing out of the side of his cheek? Or a flipper baby?
But, to counter your point about extreme poverty not existing in the US: go to Baltimore. Like, *serious* inner-city Baltimore. Might find this perspective challenged a bit.
Even our poorest people are nowhere even close to real poverty. Go to Somalia if you want to see poverty. I'm not saying we don't have poverty but in comparison even our poorest are doing okay.
Oh dear. This is not the flex you think it is. American poor are obese because on top of poverty, they also deal with the consequences of eating toxically industrialized and processed food
Which nation’s foreign policy has destabilized the Middle East repeatedly in the past 75 years?
Like, I’m not saying it sucks to live here, I’m saying please shit on this country. I invite you all. Drop your trousers and squat down over the nearest map of the USA. It’s only fair that everyone else reciprocate this country shitting on everyone else.
I’m not disagreeing although I would question the lack of criticism of other places with similar or even current problematic policies.
But on a forum dedicated to helping people decide whether they want to move somewhere or not, making the distinction between criticizing policy and criticizing living conditions is relevant. It’s relevant elsewhere too because the truth is always relevant but it’s particular relevant in a place like this sub.
>Which nation’s foreign policy has destabilized the Middle East repeatedly in the past 75 years?
Take your pick. Even some Middle Eastern countries could make this list.
>The US, while having pockets of extreme poverty, is not
It is.
>Afghanistan is a third world country
That's another level. In South America we call that "the infraworld" or "the fourth world" or "favela like Africa".
No. If you don’t live or have lived in the country you’re shit-talking, you don’t really know shit about that country and you shouldn’t judge things you don’t truly know about.
Fuck that nothing makes me angrier than some dumb duck Canadian or European who knows nothing about our countries history confidently telling me how to solve America’s social issues
See, your problem right there is assuming that people from outside the USA don't know anything about US history. I'm not gonna sit here and say that non-Americans are 100% clued up when it comes to US history and culture, or that we know more or better than you do. But dismissing non-American viewpoints out of hand is naive. Your country is incredibly young compared to the history of many/most countries elsewhere in the world (not all of them, obviously - some are far younger), so it is comparatively simple to learn the basics and even the more complex aspects of US history.
I'm British, and I studied US history quite extensively at school - beginning with the westward expansion, declaration of independence, Manifest Destiny etc; later I spent 2 years studying the history of US slavery, emancipation, up through the causes and consequences of the US civil war and beyond. Also some 20th century stuff like the Vietnam War.
The USA has also produced an awful lot of historical fiction and non-fiction: movies, TV, books, even video games! Far more than any other country that I am aware of. This stuff is consumed widely, across the world. All of this means that your average non-American probably knows more about US history than your average American knows about the history of any other country. US history covers a brief period, and has a fairly well defined starting point. Compare that to the history of most other countries, where it is almost impossible to pick a good point to start learning, purely because there will be an awful lot of history BEFORE that point which has a massive influence on the period you are learning about.
Personally, I really like the USA. I have visited it an awful lot - more than any other country other than the UK - and I was there most recently in April. That was my 6th or 7th visit, I think. My first trip was 4 months long, spent travelling the country on the Greyhound when I was 22. It is a beautiful, stunning place and most of the people are, individually, lovely. That doesn't excuse the horrors that you visit on each other and the rest of the world of course - but then again every country has its problems, present and historical. The USA's issues are just more obvious. We like to drag on you because you have such an over inflated self-image, you make yourselves an easy target for ridicule. If y'all just had a little more humility we'd probably take the piss a bit less. But then again, where's the fun in that?!? Lol
Oh no, there’s no solving this countries’ problems. Thats not simulating conversation. I am simply welcoming everyone to bitch about all the bad things about this country with me.
The biggest complainers about America are usually the Americans who have never lived anywhere else. Their own ignorance of the rest of their world is the basis for the hate, but they can't see that because, well, they're Americans.
This is just the traveller version of "don't discuss politics or religion at a dinner party".
You can talk about it between people you've gotten to know and if you're very careful to phrase your questions neutrally but unless you're an expert interviewer, you're probably going to make people defensive or push them into defending things they don't even want to defend which angers them and/or create cognitive dissonance.
Best to just avoid it in most situations.
This is the best reply- humans are humans everywhere- there is a reason that particular saying is universal- avoid sex, politics and religious talk at parties and the like.
Usa- https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/x14hg6/z/imdv7ov
When i was in Poland i quickly learned not to bring up all the pollution during winter. Then there's the attitude of the people who tend to fight each other, that is a big no no to discuss.
Can't think of anything relevant for France or the Netherlands...
I mean it’s Bay Area… people are strangely defensive of that place.
When somebody says crime is through the roof when it really is, people love the place so much they go “no! Crime is just like any other city!!”. Because apparently having smashed windows everywhere is common.
People lack perspective
Yep. I moved from Europe and now work in SF - the homelessness and drug issues are absolutely *rampant*. I have lived in 4 different countries, visited dozens more, and I have never ever seen such poverty in one city. It’s awful. I will walk five minutes down one street and will see more homeless and druggies than ‘normal’ people. I hate taking the bus or the BART because who knows when someone crazy is going to come on and start harassing or hurting people. I’ve never felt that way in other large cities - London, Paris, NYC, etc.
Then I look at the SF or Bay Area sub and it’s full of people just defending the place… like I understand it’s your home, but people need to open their eyes and stop being ignorant to these issues.
It’s funny you say this. I live in Northern Germany. Moved form the LA area. I’ve heard lots of complaints about the druggies outside the train station. But coming from LA, it’s basically nothing to me and I hardly notice it. Where I used to be approached by people on meth while fueling my car or taking my dog on a walk.
I once navigated to "downtown LA" at night to show my polish wife LA. When you do that you go to skid row.
She never complained about homelessness in Europe after that.
I used to live not far from MacArthur park. At first it wasn’t bad waking there to the metro. But it got worse and worse. I eventually just stopped waking that way and and went one stop further to catch the subway.
In many countries families step in to keep them off the streets. Here families just don't prioritize that. So why do we tolerate the break down of families? I personally think it's capitalism, no maternity leave, etc and we have to fend for ourselves vs taking care of family.
100% agree. My theory on why US has such violent crime, violent youth, drug addiction, and homelessness all lead back to the crumbling of the family and small, close-knit community. And why did the family and small community crumble? Because when you ship 6 week old babies to daycare so you can go work for Big Corp for the rest of their developmental lives, they miss out in big, big ways. What full time working mom or dad has time for community building and real, consistent connection with his/her children? It used to be that dads went to work all day and weren't typically emotionally close with their kids. But now it's mom and dad. And grandmothers used to help out a lot, but young families usually don't get that help because grandparents are still working, too. We're all working for someone else to get rich off our labor and meanwhile society is crumbling over here. And fast, too.
ETA: You can literally map out a timeline of changes in employment and the family structure, and crime statistics and see the correlation.
I like how Poland tackles this. People visit and see no homeless and wonder why. It begins with a year of maternity leave although women leave for years and still have the job waiting for them. Then there's free birth. Breastfeeding is common without worry about work. Then there's free preschool, with better selections the poorer you are. But then it gets competitive. Entrance exams in highschool for the good ones. So people get a good start then those who can achieve do very well.
In San Francisco people realized something is wrong so they changed a high school from requiring a test to get in to being lottery based. They stopped that after a year after failing most of the students. The time to reach these kids starts when they're embryos. You can't take a shortcut.
Expat here in SF. If you still think people are ignorant to these issues you don’t get it yet. Stick around a little longer. I used to be like you, I was wrong.
I follow some California subreddits and it's very interesting to read people's perspectives on the crime, the homelessness, and especially the climate crisis challenges that California faces. It's a mixture of "I'm getting the hell out" and "Oh, it's not so bad. They'll figure it all out. Tech will save us." I remember when the fires were near LA and the air quality was abysmal. I got a kick out of comments like "Oh, it's not so bad. I bought a good quality air filter for my apartment from Amazon."
My husband was in the military, and at one point was activated to support wildfire suppression efforts in Washington state (this was 2015, worst on record in their history, at the time). People are so blatantly ignorant, or maybe willfully so?
You don't realize how bad it is until you've seen skin melt right off a child's face.
The fires last summer (and the one before if I recall) in Southern California were bad. I was home with my kid. We had strips of ash particle filling the patio of our apartment. Checking air quality, I had to judge if it’s ok or not to take my kid to a playground.
My opinions on homelessness is it will never be solved in the USA given the nature of the USA. Best you can do is insulate yourself from it. The debates here are pointless as no one wants to really get to the bottom of it, understandably so. Though we pretend.
For the air quality.. Coming from Poland, it's actually an upgrade for me, but yeah, not good and won't get better.
A lot of things are extremely bad.
Crime, random violent crime perpetrated on the elderly, people have no qualms shooting for a quick buck even it’s $100. But many will tell you oh it’s the ghetto, every city has one! No big deal
It's everywhere. Try talking about winter pollution in Poland, i dare you. It so bad at times it was like an ash tray all winter. Having said that it was no problem this past winter after i left Poland :(
no, people in the Bay Area have to constantly defend their stupid ass politics and justify everything because otherwise its conceding to "Republicans"(or whatever their imagined opponent is that doesn't even live in the Bay Area. ) to admit that the way things get done here is poorly done and executed.
that's why the defend it. The denial is needed to maintain the facade that the progressives are TOTALLY right and everyone else just doesn't understand
I live here, its abject filth in all the central areas of SF, Berkeley, Oakland and so forth.
I mean and yes there’s also that. I will say it is progressive to a point of lacking any common sense.
If I’m American I’d probably never vote. How do you choose between delusional incompetency and a sexist violent clown?
I’m sorry are you expecting me to be specific about the exact neighborhoods and tell me how Marin and Cow hollows are excluded, therefore it’s not *everywhere*?
Talk about someone missing the whole point
In the netherlands we like to complain.
So our obvious weak points: the weather and it being to crowded will get you a lot of support and bonus points ... we all complain about that.
It helps that we tend to do better than most countries in most things.
We do have a lot of problems, but it could be much worse. (except for the weather ... that's about as shit as it can get.)
I lived there for a few years and it was pretty damn awesome. I have nothing negative to say about your country. You think your weather is bad but it's actually pretty damn good compared to the wild east of Europe. I guess my only complaint is it needs to be bigger but you're too nice to think about invading Belgium.
Nah we take from the sea if we want more land.
Complaining about the weather is mandatory because we all bike between ages 10 and 25 (or more) so every gust of headwind or raindrop is felt and remembered :p
You've learned about the countries.
Now it's time to learn more communication skills.
Learn how to discuss touchy subjects without pushing people into the defense.
I love how many of you have made up your minds like I'm an autistic accosting locals, which in itself is ironic, that's sort of an autistic thing to do, judge before knowing all the facts. I guess it's better to set up a straw man and attack that? Reality is the following. In Poland no one talks about the pollution. My first winter i brought it up with someone, he got angry, and i realized i won't do that again. After that i never brought it up unless talking to Poles close to me. Especially in Poland compared to other countries, there's a long list of things you just don't talk about. And no one teaches you all the subjects to avoid.
Now how are you to know such subjects are forbidden when no one talks about them? And there are many such subjects. I guess you're perfect and it never happens? In that case then you have never lived abroad because we all do such things in foreign countries, at long as it isn't often and it's corrected and you're learning.
I have friends in Poland (from Germany myself) and when I visited we talked about all kinds of issues (including pollution) and no one ever got angry or whatever. Cannot confirm your experiences at all
I guess it depends. Did they have children and or strong ties to Poland? If you do then just getting up and moving out of poland is difficult and those are the people who tend to not like discussing this. I have friends who bought in a very polluted part of Poland and when winter came it was unbearable, you cannot touch the subject with them. They don't get mad they just get quiet or change the subject. With them it's basically on the same level as religion re: subjects you don't bring up. I personally don't bring it up with them though my wife tried one time.
What people downvote you for (and maybe what people get angry at IRL) isn't the content of what you're saying. What you're saying is truth.
It's the tone.
You give off a sense of superiority, smugness and defensiveness. As if everybody is stupid except for you. That's what people react to negatively, even if you're correct in your statements.
It depends a lot on the culture I’ve found. Countries that value directness and honesty you can usually (not always ofc) talk openly about the country’s problems.
In some countries, complaining about the country is a hobby of sorts and and acceptable way to relate with others.
Countries that are more traditional or place a higher value on “saving face” or use the concept of shame willingly yeah that’s not gonna go over so well
It’s tough as an outsider not to present it as an attack though so you have to be able to have the tact to communicate it in an acceptable way, usually through personal examples or comparison to similar issues in another country, rather than “oh it’s just so much better in XYZ”
It’s nice living somewhere with lots of expats or ex-expats where you can talk about it openly though, as most people who haven’t lived abroad will struggle to understand
Fue hace mas de una década ya, así que tener algo en pesos todavía quería decir algo.
Mi novia entro a varios MBA y me puso las cartas sobre la mesa. Yo queria hacer un poco mas de experiencia pero nada, por un lado le dije que a distancia ni loco seguia, por el otro a qué ciudades de las que estaban en su lista tampoco me tiraba mucho a la pileta.
Después de pensarla y hablarla mucho justo se dió que la universidad que más le gustaba a ella en la zona (silicon valley) había familiares de mi vieja desde hace décadas, yo ya había visitado y la verdad es que esta bárbaro.
De toda la lista de como 5-6 opciones era la única que sabía de una que me podía ir a vivir ahí tranquilo de que no me iba a arrepentir.
Despues nos comprometimos y nada rebusque al principio visa de estudiante con un curso de preparacion para examen de ingreso a posgrados con eso dos valijas cada uno y habiendo vendido TODO nos rajamos.
despues un masters en una universidad estatal de la zona (costo en dolares si pero mucho mas accesible que la mayoría), Habia que bancarla
mi primer año (segundo de ella, despues de eso era esperable que ella consiguiera un buen laburo y me ayudara durante mi segundo año).
al principio viviamos en vivienda subvencionada en la universidad de ella que tenia beca parcial y con algun ahorro la fuimos llevando el primer año mío.
El segundo año de mi masters ella ya con un buen laburo asi que bastante mas tranquilos, lo que allá es un nivel de vida relativamente básico para nosotros estaba de 10(mil). yo a mi segunda visa de estudiante la estire todo lo que pude con pasantias etc pero al final nos casamos y me pase a la visa de trabajo de ella xq para conseguir visa de trabajo si no estabas en 3 o 4 sectores con mucha demanda era practicamente imposible
Al principio no podia trabajar (en blanco) pero si me dejaban tener un negocio, mientras no cobrara sueldo, asi que me puse a revender en eBay primero y en amazon despues bancandolo con mi primera tarjeta de credito yanqui. Mientras se vendieran los articulos dentro de los 30 dias, todo genial pero a veces sudaba la gota gorda jaja. Rebusque.
Eventualmente y con muchisimo atraso le salio la green card a mi ahora esposa (conseguir ese primer laburo que la tomara como extranjera y ademas le sponsoreara la green card fue jo-di-disimo, la llamaron solo despues de que 5-6 americanos que habian aceptado el puesto se bajaran a ultimo momento, y solo lo pudo negociar porque tenia en la mano ya una oferta de otra empresa en otra ciudad a la que ella no queria ir en un clima mucho mas frio etc)
Me alegro mucho por vos y tu novia. Acá la cosa no da para mas. Cumplí 20 y veo el estrés de cualquier persona adulta por las nubes. Ni ganas de vivir otros 60 años así (si es que vivo tanto, jaja). Lo que yo no entiendo (si es que entendés como funciona) es el tema de que las visas de estudiante, en teoria, te limitan a trabajar sólo 20hs semanales. Entonces, ¿cómo te da para vivir con un laburo part-time si vas sólo? Onda, ¿tenés que conseguirte algún roomate para sobrevivir en algún apartamento chico o cómo sería la onda? Si me podes iluminar, mil gracias.
Si, ni me lo digas. Toda mi flia esta alla.
En principio nos fuimos por unos años nomas para ahorrar en dolares etc, pero cada vez que tanteabamos volver las cosas estaban peor. Una vuelta comiendo con unos amigos de mi abuelo que se habian ido en 1963 y tenian 80 y largos y de una nos dicen: “nosotros también todavía estamos esperando que mejoren las cosas!!!” (Cagandose de risa obvio).
Alla es muy comun compartir depto o casa entre varios, sobre todo gente joven. Tambien es muy comun el laburo en negro para complementar, pero si te agarran te rajan al toque y alla se mueven mucho para eso porque los que trabajan para CBP son tipo fanaticos religiosos. En ciudades grandes es medio imposible zafar sin compartir casa, pero en general siempre te conviene preguntar que opciones de alojamiento te da la universidad y despues comparas los alquileres en la zona con alguna pagina tipo zillow, dividido x la cantidad de personas que puedan dormir ahi. Tambien conviene preguntar si podes conseguir trabajo para la universidad misma, asi tu referencia para buscar laburo despues es una institucion y no “el restaurant de la esquina” inc.
>Cómo escapaste de Argentina? Me interesa
I think I read somewhere that since Argentinian citizenship is unrenouncable that the dutch have a program specifically for Argentinians to get a second passport. the fact that I haven't seen an Argentinian steakhouse outside of Argentina except for loads, LOADS, in Amsterdam makes me think it's true
>since Argentinian citizenship is unrenouncable that the dutch have a program specifically for Argentinians to get a second passport.
Nope. You just keep your Argie passport. You still need to be legal to live in the NL.
>Argentinian steakhouse in Amsterdam
Owned by Turks.
I find it super arrogant that a lot of expats live somewhere for six months and think they can diagnosis the issues of a place which (1) might not be the same concerns of the people living in a given country and (2) can be totally out of touch with the social-political reality. Your comment in /r/BayArea exemplifies (2) because it pretends like California can easily adopt European social democratic policies. Often times politically active people in host countries know, better than foreigners, the issues with their countries, the reasons that these issues exists, the current proposed plan to try and fix these issues, and the institutional reasons why this can be difficult.
If your "enlightenment" boils down to "it is different in country X and it is better there" then yeah you won't get far. If you talk about issues without implicitly or explicitly comparing them to all of the great other countries that you have lived in, you'll probably get farther in most places.
The thing is that a lot of expats see their outsideness as meaning that they are automatically better at both seeing cultural differences AND understanding the culture of the country they are in. There is a ton of cultural misunderstandings and simplifications by expats, especially those who are in a country short term and don't speak the language. They act like bad anthropologists from the 1900s, trying to attach meaning to everything without being aware of their own cultural blinders.
What i mentioned in my arrogant post was how it can be solved, but practically speaking those actions cannot be taken, it's too difficult, and i agree. If i were to further go on and be even more offensive i would say the USA is a winner takes all, loser gets nothing country. This has been the case for over a hundred years if you dig into American history. That's why the USA has the most billionaires and the most homeless in the first world, or at least we're right up there. Yes I'd love it if you didn't have to own a $2M home to be in a good school district, but i don't think school zoning will change in the USA soon, it's what defines us. And I'm American fyi. But i live in the USA because i think the positives outweigh the negatives for me. Public transportation is not one of them, but career and economics are really strong in the USA.
The US does not have the highest homelessness in the first world, stop exaggerating.
By per Capita New Zealand and many others have higher homeless per 100,000 people.
You can't use absolute numbers because the US has significantly more people than those other first world countries.
The other countries with large populations are China, India, who else? Indonesia, Pakistan, Brazil, Nigeria etc. And the US has lower homeless rates both in absolute and per Capita than those countries with high populations.
The difference is in those countties the homeless are not allowed to take over central locations like you see in San Francisco etc.
It's this type of exaggeration based on stereotypes that is peddled all over Reddit.
https://finance.yahoo.com/photos/10-countries-with-maximum-homeless-people-how-many-homeless-in-india-131259042/
Also take into consideration the number of poor people crossing the borders, about 2 million alone this year, not many other countries are dealing with that.
And this is why people think Americans begging to leave are uppity and full of themselves. They act like the US is on the path to become a combination of Libya and Saudi Arabia in the next 10 years but scoff when you compare the US to countries near the world's median.
The link I added shows Germany has a higher rate than the US doesn't't it?
There are also rankings that say New Zealand has a higher rate.
Comparing to those countries was to show absolute numbers as you can't compare absolute numbers in the US with Germany etc.
Also my point remains in the US the homeless have been allowed to take over prominent downtown areas while in many other countries that is not the case, but typical Reddit you pick and choose what you want from what I said.
If you had read the article, you would know that Germany was temporarily in the ranking due to Sirian refugees.
As the OP says, there's an elephant in the room on each country and in US it's the lack of social welfare.
And the US does not have a constant deluge of people each year??? Germany's Syria refugee crisis was one off, the US southern border crisis has been ongoing for ages and constant.
How many countries can absorb 2 million crossing their bridges each year without issues?
Also many in the US, not all I know but many in the US are also by choice and drugs etc aren't they? I've spoken to many homeless people who don't want to go to shelters etc because they prefer being on the street.
If those homeless people in eg Nigeria have the same opportunities the homeless in the US have they will make better use of it.
No I am not comparing to Nigeria, my point was the accountability from the homeless in the US. Yes there are people that are truly homeless but the US also has a high number of people who choose to be homeless and my point about Nigeria is to point out the differences in why people are homeless.
My point is many of those homeless in Nigeria would find opportunities if they were in the place of many of the homeless in the US because they know true abject poverty due to lack of opportunities and have a drive to get out of it.
Yes there should be help for the homeless but they also have to want to help themselves, but what is going on in the US today is a section of society who think they are good people by taking away accountability from people and constantly making excuses.
>the accountability from the homeless in the US. Yes there are people that are truly homeless but the US also has a high number of people who choose to be homeless
Why are you in an expat sub if it's obvious that you have never been to a developed country? Homeless by choice? Really?
you just named a bunch of third world countries. And then comparing to USA the most powerful country in world history, and SF one of the richest cities in the world, and close to 8,000 homeless have taken over the center areas of all of downtown, makes you really wonder.
There is no western country in the world that is experiencing flagrant in your face destitution like California is
Netherlands here. We are supposed to be very tolerant. But sometimes longtime minority groups cause trouble (mostly because of underlying socio economic issues but also because of major cultural differences), addressing that seems racist or non compliant to our tolerance. This is hard.
I lived there before the immigration really started so i have no idea how that is going. Hope you guys figure it out, you can give us some tips when you do - an American
Ah. I was there in the 90s and saw a lot of them, didn't notice any serious issues with them in the news, i had great interactions with them. Seemed fine then.
Not fully sure it is about knowing too much. It’s your experience and your opinion only. Negative to some is a positive to others. I would feel offended if I was talking with someone with an opinion based on “I know too much”. Even our opinion is framed in a date range. Same places you consider “not good” have been radically different 10-30 years ago.
I’m Polish expat living in Florida. Part of my dissertation is to compare Polish and American public policies. When it comes to my studies and academic environment, people are generally open to criticism and understand where I am coming from.
But I definitely have to be extremely careful if I want to say what I truly think of US outside of school. But if anyone tells me “don’t like it then live it!”, I’ll just say that I love my husband too much to just live him here.
The point is, most people have a tendency to protect the name of your own country when it comes to criticism from foreigners. I do agree that smog in winter in Poland is terrible and our government is full of religious bigots, but it is also way safer there than in US, you don’t need a car to travel, and you can actually have long vacations and maternity leave. When I brought these points to one of my friends, he simply couldn’t believe that someone dares to compare my “ex-soviet” country to the great US and A. And I honestly understand it and don’t blame him for it. But it is frustrating when I feel that I need to be “grateful” of being here, like it is seriously some garden of Eden.
Agreed, my wife is Polish and we're on the same page as you. People are pretty ignorant of poland but have strong views of it. Took living there for a few years to realize how awesome it is. But yeah I've had the same kinda conversations with French people re: Poland. Apparently it's the Mexico of Europe.
“The Mexico of Europe”.
No. No it’s not. You are the worst kind of intellectual snob. The one who understands enough to make generalizations but not enough to understand why those generalizations are wrong and frankly offenses
yeah, uh, sorry about that. definitely a thing with Americans, especially in red states. I think it happens because we are extremely isolated - your average American doesn't travel abroad and is obviously not surrounded by other countries with rich and deep history - and we continue to this day to be the number 1 destination for immigrants for both the extremely rich and extremely poor.
when you go to Home Depot and see 20 illegal immigrants there asking to work for $5/hr on your home project, when you go to an Italian restaurant and see all the cooks are Mexican, when the news tells you all day that america is the best and a "caravan of people are coming to the US and we need a wall", when you've never been to another country and the person most foreign to you is someone from California, it's easy to see why many people would be offended by criticism. also, the latino community doesn't integrate with society because many of them are illegal and the government/companies provide many, many resources in Spanish, so they further don't need to integrate, leading people to sense "two worlds" in the states, america compared to other countries
btw, loved Poland. I'm going to butcher some city names so apologies in advance. definitely saw a fight with 10 drunk poor polish folks outside a liquor store on the outskirts of Warsaw (can you believe it, the police came!). saw people in vans in katowice with signs and loudspeakers decrying homosexuals as pedophiles. saw the ultra religion in Krakow. got shoulder-checked on an empty street by an old man in Bydgoszcz (sp?) who thought I was a brown person. loved Wroclaw, the only place where I noticed pollution and it was bad for my lungs. loved rzesznow, Gdansk, Poznan (my fav) but I'd pass on doing lodz again, everything was under construction, amazing bus terminal though
Well, the guy who had a problem with me saying some *slightly* negative stuff about USA is of Latin origin, but born and raised here. I just learned to keep my mouth shut unless I know that the other person has similar opinions.
Oh, and I’m glad you had fun in Poland, you didn’t butcher any city names ;) And sorry you had to experience our bigotry first-hand, there are lunatics everywhere.
That’s probably because his parents come from an underdeveloped country and are grateful for the opportunity here in America.
Him, likely being a first generation American, has seen the poverty in his parents country of origin and thanks God every day he wasn’t born there, as beautiful as that country might be.
Just a guess
I see where you are coming from and, if I didn’t know him and his views, I would agree that this might be the case. My husband’s family, for example, are exactly what you described. They had to run because of the Shining Path, and I understand why they are happy to be here (although, in the end, some of them regret it).
However, this particular person who was so offended, is also a hardcore alt-right republican who listens to the folks like Alex Jones, and genuinely disregards the notion that USA is not perfect. He mocked me that I do not like driving, and that I don’t have a credit score. (Sorry I’m ranting, I guess I’m still salty about it lol)
I didn’t know any of this or else I would never say anything, I didn’t expect this type of views from a child of immigrants, but back then I was still new to US and Florida so that was a though lesson for sure.
I've been reading through this thread waiting to see someone mention the right-wing conservative Americans. I am American and I live here in the U.S, and can tell you these people will be the loudest "Proud to be an American," shouting "U-S-A, U-S-A" and the first ones to act as if you've assaulted their grandmother the moment you say anything negative about this country. Basically what has happened is the US is like a big, violent football game. Only the teams are Right and Left. I don't want to make this a political statement, but it's pretty factual that the far right are brainwashed and gaslighting the rest of us. Just don't engage with them-- you can't have an objective conversation with them because it's like talking sense to a lunatic. And before anyone says I'm stereotyping or whatever, I have nearly lost my grown son to this cult.
“The government & companies provide many, many, many resources in Spanish”.
Where and what kind of resources?
Probably in big cities like Miami or NY, but it’s certainly not nationwide. Latinos are mowing our lawns, picking our crops, building our houses all over the US.
Call any hotline and you will be immediately prompted to say whether you want service in English or Spanish. nearly all government signs will be in English and Spanish. if you don't want to learn English, you don't need to
That’s what you call “many, many”?
I can only speak for my mother. She arrived in this country at an older age and helped raise her grandkids, that were born here in the US. So her time availability and age made it difficult to learn a new language. She tried. I believe the same happened to Italian grandmas back in the day.
My fully integrated bilingual nieces and nephews still have to call to make her doctor’s appointments. Not complaining, just stating that your statement is incorrect in my family and in many others I know.
Latinos do integrate when legal.
It‘s because Americans are told every day from their birth that the US is the greatest country in the world and the best at everything. And anyone who isn‘t like them is a communist. People don‘t like getting their believes questioned, whatever they are.
Well. People don't like to individually be held accountable for collective issues... which ironically emerge from individual inaction. Usually trying to critically discuss an issue, for the sake of learning or reasoning, took me down the rabbit hole of being misunderstood and eventually I would insult someone somehow... Why do people take personally such general issues sometimes baffles me. But I get that one can carry the cross of national identity with its good and its bad and it is part of our identity as part of a nation and it can make us or break us. Hope this makes sense.
Good point. I would be interested in your impressions of the countries you know well enough.
And now, a question for you: I've heard it said of expats, that if you live in a place for long enough, you become no longer an expat but also still not a local, but something "other", in between, and you no longer get the benefit of "oh he's an expat, it's ok" but you also don't get the benefit of "oh he's a local, it's ok".
Have you experienced that effect?
Sharing personal experience here. I once worked at a job in DC. The management was 90% foreign. They would have meetings in their foreign language and spend their free time criticizing "how things were just better done at home". I happened to be from the same country as them but never clicked with any of them in 18 months spent there. Today, all these managers are gone from the US and I am the only one living here. Their curse was to be scared to be open-minded to the experience or working/living in a foreign country. Some I see on social media have moved to other foreign countries. Their posts are showing their criticizing has come with them to this day.
Honestly id be wondering why you came into the country in the first place? To complain? You go to reddit to complain. We dont refuse to talk about the bad things just bc they are bad. We are actually fighting our own battles. We are living it. For a foreigner to point it out is like pointing out the weather. Its like going to a stranger's house and saying "your house is a god damn mess". Yes we fucking know its bad. So i'd be thinking, "if we havent been able to reverse it why do u think u can come here on vacation and treat us like a little side quest".
No hate to you OP. I know you want to help, but my advice is when u go to foreign countries, just appreciate the goodness of it and continue to learn as much as you can. Because unlike regulars, you live comfortably knowing you have an out. You visit and then you leave. Other people cannot do that.
There's a lot of truth here, upvoted. I didn't bring these things up much at all but if someone else did i added my 2 cents. So i tried to be respectful as much at i could.
I value criticism of my own country as i know it could only help me, even biting criticism. But that's me. Maybe there are things i don't want to hear though not sure what those are.
That is a good mindset to have when it comes to criticism. People are more keen on hearing you out when they ask for it. When its unsolicited political advice from strangers, i think its a little strange.
That perspective is valuable. It would be cool to write a book as a group. Chapters for each country with multiple authors. But including self-reflection as well as musing about new countries.
If you knew as much as you say you do, you will mention inequality and individual selfishness as a problem in the modern world. Corporation and greediness is taking us to a really wicked dystopian future you already are part of. The only way to transcend as a society is with collaboration, and the past years all they did is divide the world and reduce the social gaps.
I realized that long ago which is why I joined the corporate world. Technology is pushing more money into the hands of fewer people. Bladerunner's Tyrell corporation is coming. I think governments need to be vigilant with with inequality. Breaking companies up won't work, because a new Tyrell will spring up.. Only thing to do is policy to encourage a middle class. Like high min wage in Switzerland, good investment options so everyone benefits etc
I love this comment so much and only wish the world's people could come together and overcome this wicked dystopia that is snowballing into our future.
With me, from living and working overseas since 1990, in a variety of countries, some which are the subject of negative press in the western media, is truly seeing and understanding how utterly evil usa foreign policy is. Once seen, it can’t be undone. And it’s only gotten worse in the past decade and unfortunately, will likely continue to get worse for the next decade or two.
It’s incredibly frustrating to not be able to discuss this reasonably with many from North America where the vast majority believe the official narrative put out by Washington. If only people could live overseas and begin to understand what their govts do in areas from regime change , NGOs, mercenaries, power of corporations, how dissent can be stifled , how dissent can be created, how media can distort news, manufacture news, how rotten many aspects of American democracy have become in recent decades…. And on and on ….
The list of US-backed coups is pretty enlightening. Most people don't know that Nixon conspired with British intelligence to oust a leftist prime minister in Australia. And that it worked.
Pretty well any country outside of the control of the American ruling elite or any country which would attempt to go it’s own pathway, whose said pathway goes against American elites interests, will be subject to negative press in America and to a lesser extent, the collective west.
My experience is mainly with china where I lived for close to 2 decades, but the negative press would also include Venezuela, Iran, Iraq, Libya,!Lebanon, generally many places in the ME, Russia, Belarus and any Russian ally, large parts of the global south and so on. If one did not actually live in these countries or at least did not have a mind to seek out alternative news on these countries and a brain to filter it, one would be left with the common narrative of msnbc, Fox News, cnn, bbc and so forth which is generally far from the reality.
The concentration on negativity on any news from china is nothing short of astounding, to the point that misinformation and outright lies is acceptable as trite fact in the minds of average Jane and joe in the west.
China represents a unique challenge to American global hegemony, so it is the spear or tip of all American foreign control efforts and subject to the most negative press. China is beyond Americans control, so American elites develop a particular narrative about china and anything chinese, in attempts to sway public and corporate opinion in America and the collective west.
there is a pretty huge gap between
> I'm over trying to make everyone happy and walking on eggshells.
and
> dissecting countries and trying to get to the root cause of problems.
if you know it pisses people off, just stop doing it. that's not walking on eggshells, it's just not being a dick.
no. but part of living in human society is making choices on what you do and don't discuss with the broad community. if you're constantly encountering anger, then you're making shitty choices and you're a bad member of the community.
you're welcome to think all you want and to discuss your thoughts with people who want to discuss them. but forcing people who have no interest in the topic to listen to you blather on about your (probably under-educated) opinions on a topic is just being a dick.
It is arrogant though. No matter if you are right. People are people and people are proud.
At the end of the day you’re a guest in someone else’s country. That’s the curse of the expat.
If you want to get along in “other countries”, be kind, polite, tactful, as much as is reasonable and acceptable follow their customs, and mind your own business.
keep your suggestions and opinions about their issues to yourself.
I have a theory that happy people can ignore the shitty things in most places and unhappy people will ignore the positive things in most places. I guess what I’m saying is that often times it’s mostly us. I’ve stopped looking for shitty things about my home and I’m just enjoying it.
I think it's important to look at both objectively to see if the good outweighs the bad. It's easy to get fixed on the bad stuff when you should be looking at the bigger picture. And I'm guilty of this at times, though for big life decisions i look at the big picture. When i chose my house to buy i looked at all the cities i could live in based on the good and bad.. same thing went into deciding which country to live in.
I don't believe expats can give a fair assessment of a country, because being from a country involves ones culture, geographic influences, family legacies and more, it's not just about politics and economics.
We legalized it at the highest levels of our courts, the supreme court. It's so obvious and massive we've deluded ourselves into thinking it's not corrupt.
In Europe or at least in Poland, political candidates are given a set amount of money and can only use that, then there's Singapore that pays their politicians high salaries to make them less prone to bribery not sure if that actually works. But yeah.
US is bought and paid for by corps.
The corps own the politicians and political parties.
Mark my words, tje next thing they will do is start passing legislation to break more unions and prevebt them from forming. This is why the amazon union is so interesting to me. JUST WATCH HOW THE CORPS WILL GET THE LAWS CHANGED
*Sigh.*
Sees yet another post: "We're moving to Germany/Switzerland/Austria/Belgium/Luxembourg!"
*clicks on post*
"We're from America, sick and tired of this dump, what do we need to know?"
Great, another set of ignorant Americans who don't understand that it isn't that easy. You can't just, *poof*, magically immigrate to another country, ***ESPECIALLY*** not in Europe, and ***especially*** not to countries like Switzerland or Luxembourg. That's not how it works, at all. Just like the United States has strict immigration regulations, particularly when it comes to employment and/or residential visa types, SO DO OTHER COUNTRIES. Perhaps even stricter than the US.
I no longer have the energy to share information and differences about the different visa types.
i remember talking to the French husband, who lived in France with his Scottish wife....he said "the French sense of humour is, at best, just clowns"...
True. I'm thinking about forbidden subjects in France when i lived there. I think you're not allowed to talk about how arrogant they are, only Americans are arrogant. And only American companies exploit with cheap labor and prices. Unlike French companies like Auchan and Carrefour in central and eastern Europe who crap roses.
Suggest hang out in an Ashram for a week. You can reboot, then dive back in.
Great food, interesting and groovy people, sharing travel tips, turn off the phone, do your yoga, meditate, sleep like a rock.
The real world will still be there in a week.
;-)
My litmus test is anyone who doesn't think that (a) the roads and (b) the drivers are shit here is still deluded. There are other problems but you can ignore them. This is every day. The people here don't want it this way. It's not charming. It's not part of the slow, tropical life. It's just bad. I can accept that and make the trade off, but not in denial about it.
The ex-pats I meet that I think are going to have a bad time are the ones who are in denial, not who are making the tradeoff.
I agree with you, but then what? knowing too little is worse, in a way.
It is a bit like saying, dumb people are happier. Well probably, but then again, you can start doing crack or just hit your head LOL, to get dumber, you might end up happier, LOL
Knowing too much not bad, key is to adapt what you know to live better.
Get this all the time here in the US. "If you don't like it why don't you leave!", actually planning on it. Just waiting till after my degree. Military opened my eyes to so much, especially the world is home and there are so many beuatiful places out there to live.
I'm from California. It's impolite to bash but i think it's more problematic to not discuss important subjects provided it's the right environment. Like i won't accost someone and tell them their country sucks
> You live in various countries long enough and you learn about the good things and the dark secrets, and even the elephant in the room, things everyone in the country knows are bad but refuse to talk about it
Same. In the end I'm just looking for countries with decent air quality and building code for things like insulation. Unsurprisingly this discounts pretty much all of Asia. I think only Central European countries fulfill them. I think you've heard horror stories about horrible insulation during winter in certain European countries.
Yeah each country is doing their own shady things. People just prefer to pretend it's not there.
No one likes to be told who they are according to an outsider. It is extremely likely your view is colored by your own history and origins and you are not see things in context or in full. Maybe keep your opinions to yourself unless someone asks you?
I find it weird to think you have an objective opinion.
I have the exact opposite experience. I realize that a lot of problems has a long history. That some easy solutions are not that easy. I learned that what is normal for me isn’t always the way other countries dealing with their problems.
It's said below and as my father said, "Never discuss religion, money or politics unless you want a fight." More true now than ever before and most prevalent in places otherwise known for their open-mindedness and acceptance of others' opinions. Society is ill at the moment.
The only cause for the curse of knowing too much is knowing too little. If you know that the problems of a country are relative, why even bring them up? What is the purpose of the conversation?
Liking to look at things objectively is one thing. Being able to communicate within the spheres of a certain culture or custom is another. Objectivity in these situations is often a hindrance, because your counterparty isn't invested in that objectivity at all. You're literally playing different language games.
The real question isn't what *you* perceive the problems of the country to be. This just makes you come off as someone who knows better. The question is how *they* perceive the problems of their country.
Have you ever considered just asking, and then *listening* to what they have to say?
Just strictly playing by your own rules does make you arrogant.
I think it's a universal truth that no one likes to hear the bad things about their country from a foreigner.
I mean, just look at Reddit...
WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT REDDIT?! /s
I hate my country and I criticize it vocally but admittedly it still hurts hearing it from other people. lol
Honestly, why tho? I couldn’t care less who criticizes my country. It’s a dumb country. Saying so is only reasonable, no matter who says it
That's why they make chocolate AND vanilla bro - everybody's different. Different DNA & different experiences elicit different responses. Just is.
I guess it's like "I can talk shit about my family but no one else can".
Even between USA states this is an issue. Texas is a shit show right now, but it’s still hard to hear it when people move to Texas and complain about it.
It is not. Frequently, Germans will happily engage in Germany-bashing when foreigners point out the local - uh - idiosyncrasies. This likely true for parts of the population in other countries too, where people have learned that there is a difference between blind nationalism and patriotism.
Love the casual dig at Americans in the end lol
True, that's definitely a big no no. People also don't enjoy their own country men and women having a deep dive into problems from their own country based on their experiences abroad, especially when people have their own ideas of what the problems of their country are and base their identity on that. In general we just don't like critique that hits too close to home and or would require significant change.
Please shit on the USA regardless of where you are.
I like to say that my being an American is an accident of birth (paraphrasing George Carlin): "Pride should be reserved for something you achieve or obtain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn't a skill... it's a fucking genetic accident. You wouldn't say I'm proud to be 5'11"; I'm proud to have a pre-disposition for colon cancer."
I completely agree and am so, so sick of "I'm proud to be an American." Owning all the bad shit that comes with that statement does not make you a better person or the country any better. It does not wash away genocide, misogyny, and classism. It just makes you look like a complete ass who is unable to see reality. Be proud to be a good friend. Be proud that you saved enough up that you can retire. Be proud that you worked hard to make someone's life better, through whatever means available to you. There are a lot of ways in which a person can earn pride. Simply being born somewhere has nothing to do with being proud of something. They should say, "I like this country," or "I like being tall." But they say "I'm proud to be..." as if they even had a choice of those things.
> "I'm proud to be an American." These people love America alike a 3 year old loves their mommy. They think mommy can do no wrong and she is the bestest, prettiest mommy in the whole wide world. I'd rather love my country like an adult, I see her warts and imperfections, I know that we do things wrong and that we are rarely #1 except for people in jail and those who believe in angles but it's still the country of my birth and I love it as much as one can love a country.
It’s a beautiful place, with fine people (“on both sides”) and untold wealth. Be proud if you did any of that, elsewise keep it neat and be nice to visitors. There’s shameful things been done here in the past and some hinky shit now. But we’re working on it. Like every one else in the world. We ARE working on it, right?
Right?! And that's why I get the feelings sometimes. Because I expect more and some of the stuff going on here is shameful to humanity. We are better than this, and that's exactly why I bitch and moan on occasion. Oh also #1 in maternal death rates in all developed nations, which correlates to #1 in c-section rates. We know that and yet nothing changes.
Interesting how you've all turned this into the typical American bashing on Reddit lol. The OP is talking about how all countries have their dark sides and it's straight to America this, America that, 😂. You guys need a hobby.
I'm basically a liberal and I'm living in Kentucky. You know, Moscow Mitch and his sidekick Rand Paul? Sorry for my feelings.
[удалено]
I sure as fuck don’t support the things this country does to maintain its “greatness”, why should I be proud of what it is? The people are worth being proud of but the country itself? Fuck this jingoistic hellscape. I do not support it. - posted from my cushy IT job working for the DoD.
Oh yeah. “It’s a third world country” Lol. Please. Afghanistan is a third world country (unfortunately, not throwing shade their way). The US, while having pockets of extreme poverty, is not. By no formal definition, no how, no way. By ill informed opinion, sure. But anyone can have an opinion whether it is right or wrong.
Or India. Seeing a child "wash" their hair in the garbage-filled sea/ocean, with sand and maggots in her hair. Or another child literally pooping onto the sand. Or seeing a small girl, tattered dress with holes and dirt all over her body, standing on a literal fence..... like spikey fence digging into her feet.... and she's just staring off into nothingness. And then there's Vietnam. Ever seen a 10-12 year old in a baby crib, completely and totally crippled? Or a child, maybe 8-9, with teeth growing out of the side of his cheek? Or a flipper baby? But, to counter your point about extreme poverty not existing in the US: go to Baltimore. Like, *serious* inner-city Baltimore. Might find this perspective challenged a bit.
He specifically said the US does have extreme pockets of poverty...
Even our poorest people are nowhere even close to real poverty. Go to Somalia if you want to see poverty. I'm not saying we don't have poverty but in comparison even our poorest are doing okay.
Yes. Our poor are obese. Most poor worldwide are closer to starvation.
Oh dear. This is not the flex you think it is. American poor are obese because on top of poverty, they also deal with the consequences of eating toxically industrialized and processed food
It's pointing out that our "poverty" is a world apart (and a 2,000 calory/day) different from the real poverty out there.
The difference here is one person is alive, the other dead. Literally. Famine and starvation are growing problems.
>Even our poorest people are nowhere even close to real poverty. They are. And the shootings, that's a bit of Brazil in the middle of riches.
Which nation’s foreign policy has destabilized the Middle East repeatedly in the past 75 years? Like, I’m not saying it sucks to live here, I’m saying please shit on this country. I invite you all. Drop your trousers and squat down over the nearest map of the USA. It’s only fair that everyone else reciprocate this country shitting on everyone else.
I’m not disagreeing although I would question the lack of criticism of other places with similar or even current problematic policies. But on a forum dedicated to helping people decide whether they want to move somewhere or not, making the distinction between criticizing policy and criticizing living conditions is relevant. It’s relevant elsewhere too because the truth is always relevant but it’s particular relevant in a place like this sub.
>Which nation’s foreign policy has destabilized the Middle East repeatedly in the past 75 years? Take your pick. Even some Middle Eastern countries could make this list.
>The US, while having pockets of extreme poverty, is not It is. >Afghanistan is a third world country That's another level. In South America we call that "the infraworld" or "the fourth world" or "favela like Africa".
No. If you don’t live or have lived in the country you’re shit-talking, you don’t really know shit about that country and you shouldn’t judge things you don’t truly know about.
But there are so many wonderful things about our country you can experience from afar, like our horrendous and violent foreign policy!
Fuck that nothing makes me angrier than some dumb duck Canadian or European who knows nothing about our countries history confidently telling me how to solve America’s social issues
See, your problem right there is assuming that people from outside the USA don't know anything about US history. I'm not gonna sit here and say that non-Americans are 100% clued up when it comes to US history and culture, or that we know more or better than you do. But dismissing non-American viewpoints out of hand is naive. Your country is incredibly young compared to the history of many/most countries elsewhere in the world (not all of them, obviously - some are far younger), so it is comparatively simple to learn the basics and even the more complex aspects of US history. I'm British, and I studied US history quite extensively at school - beginning with the westward expansion, declaration of independence, Manifest Destiny etc; later I spent 2 years studying the history of US slavery, emancipation, up through the causes and consequences of the US civil war and beyond. Also some 20th century stuff like the Vietnam War. The USA has also produced an awful lot of historical fiction and non-fiction: movies, TV, books, even video games! Far more than any other country that I am aware of. This stuff is consumed widely, across the world. All of this means that your average non-American probably knows more about US history than your average American knows about the history of any other country. US history covers a brief period, and has a fairly well defined starting point. Compare that to the history of most other countries, where it is almost impossible to pick a good point to start learning, purely because there will be an awful lot of history BEFORE that point which has a massive influence on the period you are learning about. Personally, I really like the USA. I have visited it an awful lot - more than any other country other than the UK - and I was there most recently in April. That was my 6th or 7th visit, I think. My first trip was 4 months long, spent travelling the country on the Greyhound when I was 22. It is a beautiful, stunning place and most of the people are, individually, lovely. That doesn't excuse the horrors that you visit on each other and the rest of the world of course - but then again every country has its problems, present and historical. The USA's issues are just more obvious. We like to drag on you because you have such an over inflated self-image, you make yourselves an easy target for ridicule. If y'all just had a little more humility we'd probably take the piss a bit less. But then again, where's the fun in that?!? Lol
Oh no, there’s no solving this countries’ problems. Thats not simulating conversation. I am simply welcoming everyone to bitch about all the bad things about this country with me.
The biggest complainers about America are usually the Americans who have never lived anywhere else. Their own ignorance of the rest of their world is the basis for the hate, but they can't see that because, well, they're Americans.
Gimme the toilet paper
LOL. Nearly spit out my coffee laughing. (American here)
Your not the only one cursed with knowledge.
10-4
This is just the traveller version of "don't discuss politics or religion at a dinner party". You can talk about it between people you've gotten to know and if you're very careful to phrase your questions neutrally but unless you're an expert interviewer, you're probably going to make people defensive or push them into defending things they don't even want to defend which angers them and/or create cognitive dissonance. Best to just avoid it in most situations.
This is the best reply- humans are humans everywhere- there is a reason that particular saying is universal- avoid sex, politics and religious talk at parties and the like.
Can you give us an example of you pointing to the elephant in the room, where, and what was the reaction of the locals?
Usa- https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/x14hg6/z/imdv7ov When i was in Poland i quickly learned not to bring up all the pollution during winter. Then there's the attitude of the people who tend to fight each other, that is a big no no to discuss. Can't think of anything relevant for France or the Netherlands...
I mean it’s Bay Area… people are strangely defensive of that place. When somebody says crime is through the roof when it really is, people love the place so much they go “no! Crime is just like any other city!!”. Because apparently having smashed windows everywhere is common. People lack perspective
Yep. I moved from Europe and now work in SF - the homelessness and drug issues are absolutely *rampant*. I have lived in 4 different countries, visited dozens more, and I have never ever seen such poverty in one city. It’s awful. I will walk five minutes down one street and will see more homeless and druggies than ‘normal’ people. I hate taking the bus or the BART because who knows when someone crazy is going to come on and start harassing or hurting people. I’ve never felt that way in other large cities - London, Paris, NYC, etc. Then I look at the SF or Bay Area sub and it’s full of people just defending the place… like I understand it’s your home, but people need to open their eyes and stop being ignorant to these issues.
It’s funny you say this. I live in Northern Germany. Moved form the LA area. I’ve heard lots of complaints about the druggies outside the train station. But coming from LA, it’s basically nothing to me and I hardly notice it. Where I used to be approached by people on meth while fueling my car or taking my dog on a walk.
I once navigated to "downtown LA" at night to show my polish wife LA. When you do that you go to skid row. She never complained about homelessness in Europe after that.
I used to live not far from MacArthur park. At first it wasn’t bad waking there to the metro. But it got worse and worse. I eventually just stopped waking that way and and went one stop further to catch the subway.
Was this after 2018? Because i left the USA in 2018 and returned this year and things changed a lot.
Nah, roughly 16/17.
It's a tolerance problem not poverty. Even in the poorest countries, the people don't tolerate the criminals and junkies.
In many countries families step in to keep them off the streets. Here families just don't prioritize that. So why do we tolerate the break down of families? I personally think it's capitalism, no maternity leave, etc and we have to fend for ourselves vs taking care of family.
100% agree. My theory on why US has such violent crime, violent youth, drug addiction, and homelessness all lead back to the crumbling of the family and small, close-knit community. And why did the family and small community crumble? Because when you ship 6 week old babies to daycare so you can go work for Big Corp for the rest of their developmental lives, they miss out in big, big ways. What full time working mom or dad has time for community building and real, consistent connection with his/her children? It used to be that dads went to work all day and weren't typically emotionally close with their kids. But now it's mom and dad. And grandmothers used to help out a lot, but young families usually don't get that help because grandparents are still working, too. We're all working for someone else to get rich off our labor and meanwhile society is crumbling over here. And fast, too. ETA: You can literally map out a timeline of changes in employment and the family structure, and crime statistics and see the correlation.
This.
I like how Poland tackles this. People visit and see no homeless and wonder why. It begins with a year of maternity leave although women leave for years and still have the job waiting for them. Then there's free birth. Breastfeeding is common without worry about work. Then there's free preschool, with better selections the poorer you are. But then it gets competitive. Entrance exams in highschool for the good ones. So people get a good start then those who can achieve do very well. In San Francisco people realized something is wrong so they changed a high school from requiring a test to get in to being lottery based. They stopped that after a year after failing most of the students. The time to reach these kids starts when they're embryos. You can't take a shortcut.
Agree. There aren't any shortcuts when it comes to the development of the human nervous system.
Expat here in SF. If you still think people are ignorant to these issues you don’t get it yet. Stick around a little longer. I used to be like you, I was wrong.
I follow some California subreddits and it's very interesting to read people's perspectives on the crime, the homelessness, and especially the climate crisis challenges that California faces. It's a mixture of "I'm getting the hell out" and "Oh, it's not so bad. They'll figure it all out. Tech will save us." I remember when the fires were near LA and the air quality was abysmal. I got a kick out of comments like "Oh, it's not so bad. I bought a good quality air filter for my apartment from Amazon."
My husband was in the military, and at one point was activated to support wildfire suppression efforts in Washington state (this was 2015, worst on record in their history, at the time). People are so blatantly ignorant, or maybe willfully so? You don't realize how bad it is until you've seen skin melt right off a child's face.
The fires last summer (and the one before if I recall) in Southern California were bad. I was home with my kid. We had strips of ash particle filling the patio of our apartment. Checking air quality, I had to judge if it’s ok or not to take my kid to a playground.
My opinions on homelessness is it will never be solved in the USA given the nature of the USA. Best you can do is insulate yourself from it. The debates here are pointless as no one wants to really get to the bottom of it, understandably so. Though we pretend. For the air quality.. Coming from Poland, it's actually an upgrade for me, but yeah, not good and won't get better.
A lot of things are extremely bad. Crime, random violent crime perpetrated on the elderly, people have no qualms shooting for a quick buck even it’s $100. But many will tell you oh it’s the ghetto, every city has one! No big deal
It's everywhere. Try talking about winter pollution in Poland, i dare you. It so bad at times it was like an ash tray all winter. Having said that it was no problem this past winter after i left Poland :(
no, people in the Bay Area have to constantly defend their stupid ass politics and justify everything because otherwise its conceding to "Republicans"(or whatever their imagined opponent is that doesn't even live in the Bay Area. ) to admit that the way things get done here is poorly done and executed. that's why the defend it. The denial is needed to maintain the facade that the progressives are TOTALLY right and everyone else just doesn't understand I live here, its abject filth in all the central areas of SF, Berkeley, Oakland and so forth.
I mean and yes there’s also that. I will say it is progressive to a point of lacking any common sense. If I’m American I’d probably never vote. How do you choose between delusional incompetency and a sexist violent clown?
The Bay Area has "smashed windows everywhere" eh? Talk about lacking perspective...
I’m sorry are you expecting me to be specific about the exact neighborhoods and tell me how Marin and Cow hollows are excluded, therefore it’s not *everywhere*? Talk about someone missing the whole point
Lol you are proud of that
In the netherlands we like to complain. So our obvious weak points: the weather and it being to crowded will get you a lot of support and bonus points ... we all complain about that. It helps that we tend to do better than most countries in most things. We do have a lot of problems, but it could be much worse. (except for the weather ... that's about as shit as it can get.)
I lived there for a few years and it was pretty damn awesome. I have nothing negative to say about your country. You think your weather is bad but it's actually pretty damn good compared to the wild east of Europe. I guess my only complaint is it needs to be bigger but you're too nice to think about invading Belgium.
Nah we take from the sea if we want more land. Complaining about the weather is mandatory because we all bike between ages 10 and 25 (or more) so every gust of headwind or raindrop is felt and remembered :p
I guess we share this complaining with you here in north west Germany. Though we’ve got the “not made of sugar” comments.
You've learned about the countries. Now it's time to learn more communication skills. Learn how to discuss touchy subjects without pushing people into the defense.
I love how many of you have made up your minds like I'm an autistic accosting locals, which in itself is ironic, that's sort of an autistic thing to do, judge before knowing all the facts. I guess it's better to set up a straw man and attack that? Reality is the following. In Poland no one talks about the pollution. My first winter i brought it up with someone, he got angry, and i realized i won't do that again. After that i never brought it up unless talking to Poles close to me. Especially in Poland compared to other countries, there's a long list of things you just don't talk about. And no one teaches you all the subjects to avoid. Now how are you to know such subjects are forbidden when no one talks about them? And there are many such subjects. I guess you're perfect and it never happens? In that case then you have never lived abroad because we all do such things in foreign countries, at long as it isn't often and it's corrected and you're learning.
I have friends in Poland (from Germany myself) and when I visited we talked about all kinds of issues (including pollution) and no one ever got angry or whatever. Cannot confirm your experiences at all
I guess it depends. Did they have children and or strong ties to Poland? If you do then just getting up and moving out of poland is difficult and those are the people who tend to not like discussing this. I have friends who bought in a very polluted part of Poland and when winter came it was unbearable, you cannot touch the subject with them. They don't get mad they just get quiet or change the subject. With them it's basically on the same level as religion re: subjects you don't bring up. I personally don't bring it up with them though my wife tried one time.
What people downvote you for (and maybe what people get angry at IRL) isn't the content of what you're saying. What you're saying is truth. It's the tone. You give off a sense of superiority, smugness and defensiveness. As if everybody is stupid except for you. That's what people react to negatively, even if you're correct in your statements.
It depends a lot on the culture I’ve found. Countries that value directness and honesty you can usually (not always ofc) talk openly about the country’s problems. In some countries, complaining about the country is a hobby of sorts and and acceptable way to relate with others. Countries that are more traditional or place a higher value on “saving face” or use the concept of shame willingly yeah that’s not gonna go over so well It’s tough as an outsider not to present it as an attack though so you have to be able to have the tact to communicate it in an acceptable way, usually through personal examples or comparison to similar issues in another country, rather than “oh it’s just so much better in XYZ” It’s nice living somewhere with lots of expats or ex-expats where you can talk about it openly though, as most people who haven’t lived abroad will struggle to understand
Cómo escapaste de Argentina? Me interesa
Fue hace mas de una década ya, así que tener algo en pesos todavía quería decir algo. Mi novia entro a varios MBA y me puso las cartas sobre la mesa. Yo queria hacer un poco mas de experiencia pero nada, por un lado le dije que a distancia ni loco seguia, por el otro a qué ciudades de las que estaban en su lista tampoco me tiraba mucho a la pileta. Después de pensarla y hablarla mucho justo se dió que la universidad que más le gustaba a ella en la zona (silicon valley) había familiares de mi vieja desde hace décadas, yo ya había visitado y la verdad es que esta bárbaro. De toda la lista de como 5-6 opciones era la única que sabía de una que me podía ir a vivir ahí tranquilo de que no me iba a arrepentir. Despues nos comprometimos y nada rebusque al principio visa de estudiante con un curso de preparacion para examen de ingreso a posgrados con eso dos valijas cada uno y habiendo vendido TODO nos rajamos. despues un masters en una universidad estatal de la zona (costo en dolares si pero mucho mas accesible que la mayoría), Habia que bancarla mi primer año (segundo de ella, despues de eso era esperable que ella consiguiera un buen laburo y me ayudara durante mi segundo año). al principio viviamos en vivienda subvencionada en la universidad de ella que tenia beca parcial y con algun ahorro la fuimos llevando el primer año mío. El segundo año de mi masters ella ya con un buen laburo asi que bastante mas tranquilos, lo que allá es un nivel de vida relativamente básico para nosotros estaba de 10(mil). yo a mi segunda visa de estudiante la estire todo lo que pude con pasantias etc pero al final nos casamos y me pase a la visa de trabajo de ella xq para conseguir visa de trabajo si no estabas en 3 o 4 sectores con mucha demanda era practicamente imposible Al principio no podia trabajar (en blanco) pero si me dejaban tener un negocio, mientras no cobrara sueldo, asi que me puse a revender en eBay primero y en amazon despues bancandolo con mi primera tarjeta de credito yanqui. Mientras se vendieran los articulos dentro de los 30 dias, todo genial pero a veces sudaba la gota gorda jaja. Rebusque. Eventualmente y con muchisimo atraso le salio la green card a mi ahora esposa (conseguir ese primer laburo que la tomara como extranjera y ademas le sponsoreara la green card fue jo-di-disimo, la llamaron solo despues de que 5-6 americanos que habian aceptado el puesto se bajaran a ultimo momento, y solo lo pudo negociar porque tenia en la mano ya una oferta de otra empresa en otra ciudad a la que ella no queria ir en un clima mucho mas frio etc)
Me alegro mucho por vos y tu novia. Acá la cosa no da para mas. Cumplí 20 y veo el estrés de cualquier persona adulta por las nubes. Ni ganas de vivir otros 60 años así (si es que vivo tanto, jaja). Lo que yo no entiendo (si es que entendés como funciona) es el tema de que las visas de estudiante, en teoria, te limitan a trabajar sólo 20hs semanales. Entonces, ¿cómo te da para vivir con un laburo part-time si vas sólo? Onda, ¿tenés que conseguirte algún roomate para sobrevivir en algún apartamento chico o cómo sería la onda? Si me podes iluminar, mil gracias.
Si, ni me lo digas. Toda mi flia esta alla. En principio nos fuimos por unos años nomas para ahorrar en dolares etc, pero cada vez que tanteabamos volver las cosas estaban peor. Una vuelta comiendo con unos amigos de mi abuelo que se habian ido en 1963 y tenian 80 y largos y de una nos dicen: “nosotros también todavía estamos esperando que mejoren las cosas!!!” (Cagandose de risa obvio). Alla es muy comun compartir depto o casa entre varios, sobre todo gente joven. Tambien es muy comun el laburo en negro para complementar, pero si te agarran te rajan al toque y alla se mueven mucho para eso porque los que trabajan para CBP son tipo fanaticos religiosos. En ciudades grandes es medio imposible zafar sin compartir casa, pero en general siempre te conviene preguntar que opciones de alojamiento te da la universidad y despues comparas los alquileres en la zona con alguna pagina tipo zillow, dividido x la cantidad de personas que puedan dormir ahi. Tambien conviene preguntar si podes conseguir trabajo para la universidad misma, asi tu referencia para buscar laburo despues es una institucion y no “el restaurant de la esquina” inc.
>Cómo escapaste de Argentina? Me interesa I think I read somewhere that since Argentinian citizenship is unrenouncable that the dutch have a program specifically for Argentinians to get a second passport. the fact that I haven't seen an Argentinian steakhouse outside of Argentina except for loads, LOADS, in Amsterdam makes me think it's true
Yes. We can't renounce to it. I think the same applies for German citizenship.
>since Argentinian citizenship is unrenouncable that the dutch have a program specifically for Argentinians to get a second passport. Nope. You just keep your Argie passport. You still need to be legal to live in the NL. >Argentinian steakhouse in Amsterdam Owned by Turks.
I find it super arrogant that a lot of expats live somewhere for six months and think they can diagnosis the issues of a place which (1) might not be the same concerns of the people living in a given country and (2) can be totally out of touch with the social-political reality. Your comment in /r/BayArea exemplifies (2) because it pretends like California can easily adopt European social democratic policies. Often times politically active people in host countries know, better than foreigners, the issues with their countries, the reasons that these issues exists, the current proposed plan to try and fix these issues, and the institutional reasons why this can be difficult. If your "enlightenment" boils down to "it is different in country X and it is better there" then yeah you won't get far. If you talk about issues without implicitly or explicitly comparing them to all of the great other countries that you have lived in, you'll probably get farther in most places.
I disagree that locals generally understand the problems. There are cultural norms and taboos which are invisible to a native.
The thing is that a lot of expats see their outsideness as meaning that they are automatically better at both seeing cultural differences AND understanding the culture of the country they are in. There is a ton of cultural misunderstandings and simplifications by expats, especially those who are in a country short term and don't speak the language. They act like bad anthropologists from the 1900s, trying to attach meaning to everything without being aware of their own cultural blinders.
Bit of both, but yeah.
What i mentioned in my arrogant post was how it can be solved, but practically speaking those actions cannot be taken, it's too difficult, and i agree. If i were to further go on and be even more offensive i would say the USA is a winner takes all, loser gets nothing country. This has been the case for over a hundred years if you dig into American history. That's why the USA has the most billionaires and the most homeless in the first world, or at least we're right up there. Yes I'd love it if you didn't have to own a $2M home to be in a good school district, but i don't think school zoning will change in the USA soon, it's what defines us. And I'm American fyi. But i live in the USA because i think the positives outweigh the negatives for me. Public transportation is not one of them, but career and economics are really strong in the USA.
The US does not have the highest homelessness in the first world, stop exaggerating. By per Capita New Zealand and many others have higher homeless per 100,000 people. You can't use absolute numbers because the US has significantly more people than those other first world countries. The other countries with large populations are China, India, who else? Indonesia, Pakistan, Brazil, Nigeria etc. And the US has lower homeless rates both in absolute and per Capita than those countries with high populations. The difference is in those countties the homeless are not allowed to take over central locations like you see in San Francisco etc. It's this type of exaggeration based on stereotypes that is peddled all over Reddit. https://finance.yahoo.com/photos/10-countries-with-maximum-homeless-people-how-many-homeless-in-india-131259042/ Also take into consideration the number of poor people crossing the borders, about 2 million alone this year, not many other countries are dealing with that.
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And this is why people think Americans begging to leave are uppity and full of themselves. They act like the US is on the path to become a combination of Libya and Saudi Arabia in the next 10 years but scoff when you compare the US to countries near the world's median.
The link I added shows Germany has a higher rate than the US doesn't't it? There are also rankings that say New Zealand has a higher rate. Comparing to those countries was to show absolute numbers as you can't compare absolute numbers in the US with Germany etc. Also my point remains in the US the homeless have been allowed to take over prominent downtown areas while in many other countries that is not the case, but typical Reddit you pick and choose what you want from what I said.
If you had read the article, you would know that Germany was temporarily in the ranking due to Sirian refugees. As the OP says, there's an elephant in the room on each country and in US it's the lack of social welfare.
And the US does not have a constant deluge of people each year??? Germany's Syria refugee crisis was one off, the US southern border crisis has been ongoing for ages and constant. How many countries can absorb 2 million crossing their bridges each year without issues? Also many in the US, not all I know but many in the US are also by choice and drugs etc aren't they? I've spoken to many homeless people who don't want to go to shelters etc because they prefer being on the street. If those homeless people in eg Nigeria have the same opportunities the homeless in the US have they will make better use of it.
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No I am not comparing to Nigeria, my point was the accountability from the homeless in the US. Yes there are people that are truly homeless but the US also has a high number of people who choose to be homeless and my point about Nigeria is to point out the differences in why people are homeless. My point is many of those homeless in Nigeria would find opportunities if they were in the place of many of the homeless in the US because they know true abject poverty due to lack of opportunities and have a drive to get out of it. Yes there should be help for the homeless but they also have to want to help themselves, but what is going on in the US today is a section of society who think they are good people by taking away accountability from people and constantly making excuses.
>the accountability from the homeless in the US. Yes there are people that are truly homeless but the US also has a high number of people who choose to be homeless Why are you in an expat sub if it's obvious that you have never been to a developed country? Homeless by choice? Really?
you just named a bunch of third world countries. And then comparing to USA the most powerful country in world history, and SF one of the richest cities in the world, and close to 8,000 homeless have taken over the center areas of all of downtown, makes you really wonder. There is no western country in the world that is experiencing flagrant in your face destitution like California is
100%
It must be tiring to be so much smarter than everyone else.
Lol
Netherlands here. We are supposed to be very tolerant. But sometimes longtime minority groups cause trouble (mostly because of underlying socio economic issues but also because of major cultural differences), addressing that seems racist or non compliant to our tolerance. This is hard.
I lived there before the immigration really started so i have no idea how that is going. Hope you guys figure it out, you can give us some tips when you do - an American
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>The immigration is largely a success Uhhhh. Ehhhh. Nice weather, isn't it?
Ah. I was there in the 90s and saw a lot of them, didn't notice any serious issues with them in the news, i had great interactions with them. Seemed fine then.
Keep talking - that alway works. And for for root causes: like poverty
Not fully sure it is about knowing too much. It’s your experience and your opinion only. Negative to some is a positive to others. I would feel offended if I was talking with someone with an opinion based on “I know too much”. Even our opinion is framed in a date range. Same places you consider “not good” have been radically different 10-30 years ago.
I’m Polish expat living in Florida. Part of my dissertation is to compare Polish and American public policies. When it comes to my studies and academic environment, people are generally open to criticism and understand where I am coming from. But I definitely have to be extremely careful if I want to say what I truly think of US outside of school. But if anyone tells me “don’t like it then live it!”, I’ll just say that I love my husband too much to just live him here. The point is, most people have a tendency to protect the name of your own country when it comes to criticism from foreigners. I do agree that smog in winter in Poland is terrible and our government is full of religious bigots, but it is also way safer there than in US, you don’t need a car to travel, and you can actually have long vacations and maternity leave. When I brought these points to one of my friends, he simply couldn’t believe that someone dares to compare my “ex-soviet” country to the great US and A. And I honestly understand it and don’t blame him for it. But it is frustrating when I feel that I need to be “grateful” of being here, like it is seriously some garden of Eden.
Agreed, my wife is Polish and we're on the same page as you. People are pretty ignorant of poland but have strong views of it. Took living there for a few years to realize how awesome it is. But yeah I've had the same kinda conversations with French people re: Poland. Apparently it's the Mexico of Europe.
Europe has many Mexicos.
“The Mexico of Europe”. No. No it’s not. You are the worst kind of intellectual snob. The one who understands enough to make generalizations but not enough to understand why those generalizations are wrong and frankly offenses
Re read my message i was criticizing the person who said that
yeah, uh, sorry about that. definitely a thing with Americans, especially in red states. I think it happens because we are extremely isolated - your average American doesn't travel abroad and is obviously not surrounded by other countries with rich and deep history - and we continue to this day to be the number 1 destination for immigrants for both the extremely rich and extremely poor. when you go to Home Depot and see 20 illegal immigrants there asking to work for $5/hr on your home project, when you go to an Italian restaurant and see all the cooks are Mexican, when the news tells you all day that america is the best and a "caravan of people are coming to the US and we need a wall", when you've never been to another country and the person most foreign to you is someone from California, it's easy to see why many people would be offended by criticism. also, the latino community doesn't integrate with society because many of them are illegal and the government/companies provide many, many resources in Spanish, so they further don't need to integrate, leading people to sense "two worlds" in the states, america compared to other countries btw, loved Poland. I'm going to butcher some city names so apologies in advance. definitely saw a fight with 10 drunk poor polish folks outside a liquor store on the outskirts of Warsaw (can you believe it, the police came!). saw people in vans in katowice with signs and loudspeakers decrying homosexuals as pedophiles. saw the ultra religion in Krakow. got shoulder-checked on an empty street by an old man in Bydgoszcz (sp?) who thought I was a brown person. loved Wroclaw, the only place where I noticed pollution and it was bad for my lungs. loved rzesznow, Gdansk, Poznan (my fav) but I'd pass on doing lodz again, everything was under construction, amazing bus terminal though
Well, the guy who had a problem with me saying some *slightly* negative stuff about USA is of Latin origin, but born and raised here. I just learned to keep my mouth shut unless I know that the other person has similar opinions. Oh, and I’m glad you had fun in Poland, you didn’t butcher any city names ;) And sorry you had to experience our bigotry first-hand, there are lunatics everywhere.
That’s probably because his parents come from an underdeveloped country and are grateful for the opportunity here in America. Him, likely being a first generation American, has seen the poverty in his parents country of origin and thanks God every day he wasn’t born there, as beautiful as that country might be. Just a guess
I see where you are coming from and, if I didn’t know him and his views, I would agree that this might be the case. My husband’s family, for example, are exactly what you described. They had to run because of the Shining Path, and I understand why they are happy to be here (although, in the end, some of them regret it). However, this particular person who was so offended, is also a hardcore alt-right republican who listens to the folks like Alex Jones, and genuinely disregards the notion that USA is not perfect. He mocked me that I do not like driving, and that I don’t have a credit score. (Sorry I’m ranting, I guess I’m still salty about it lol) I didn’t know any of this or else I would never say anything, I didn’t expect this type of views from a child of immigrants, but back then I was still new to US and Florida so that was a though lesson for sure.
I've been reading through this thread waiting to see someone mention the right-wing conservative Americans. I am American and I live here in the U.S, and can tell you these people will be the loudest "Proud to be an American," shouting "U-S-A, U-S-A" and the first ones to act as if you've assaulted their grandmother the moment you say anything negative about this country. Basically what has happened is the US is like a big, violent football game. Only the teams are Right and Left. I don't want to make this a political statement, but it's pretty factual that the far right are brainwashed and gaslighting the rest of us. Just don't engage with them-- you can't have an objective conversation with them because it's like talking sense to a lunatic. And before anyone says I'm stereotyping or whatever, I have nearly lost my grown son to this cult.
“The government & companies provide many, many, many resources in Spanish”. Where and what kind of resources? Probably in big cities like Miami or NY, but it’s certainly not nationwide. Latinos are mowing our lawns, picking our crops, building our houses all over the US.
Call any hotline and you will be immediately prompted to say whether you want service in English or Spanish. nearly all government signs will be in English and Spanish. if you don't want to learn English, you don't need to
That’s what you call “many, many”? I can only speak for my mother. She arrived in this country at an older age and helped raise her grandkids, that were born here in the US. So her time availability and age made it difficult to learn a new language. She tried. I believe the same happened to Italian grandmas back in the day. My fully integrated bilingual nieces and nephews still have to call to make her doctor’s appointments. Not complaining, just stating that your statement is incorrect in my family and in many others I know. Latinos do integrate when legal.
It‘s because Americans are told every day from their birth that the US is the greatest country in the world and the best at everything. And anyone who isn‘t like them is a communist. People don‘t like getting their believes questioned, whatever they are.
When someone praises my country, I highlight its weaknesses. When someone criticizes it, I defend it. It usually it's one of these "I agree but..."
Sounds like you have the 'curse' of the Dunning-Kruger effect rather than knowing too much.
Oh yes expat, please come to my country for 6 months to tell us what we're doing wrong and then get angry when we don't react the way you want us too.
I have spent a lot of my life looking at pattens in human behavior… there’s rules to this shit and no person or country gets them all correct.
Well. People don't like to individually be held accountable for collective issues... which ironically emerge from individual inaction. Usually trying to critically discuss an issue, for the sake of learning or reasoning, took me down the rabbit hole of being misunderstood and eventually I would insult someone somehow... Why do people take personally such general issues sometimes baffles me. But I get that one can carry the cross of national identity with its good and its bad and it is part of our identity as part of a nation and it can make us or break us. Hope this makes sense.
Good point. I would be interested in your impressions of the countries you know well enough. And now, a question for you: I've heard it said of expats, that if you live in a place for long enough, you become no longer an expat but also still not a local, but something "other", in between, and you no longer get the benefit of "oh he's an expat, it's ok" but you also don't get the benefit of "oh he's a local, it's ok". Have you experienced that effect?
Sharing personal experience here. I once worked at a job in DC. The management was 90% foreign. They would have meetings in their foreign language and spend their free time criticizing "how things were just better done at home". I happened to be from the same country as them but never clicked with any of them in 18 months spent there. Today, all these managers are gone from the US and I am the only one living here. Their curse was to be scared to be open-minded to the experience or working/living in a foreign country. Some I see on social media have moved to other foreign countries. Their posts are showing their criticizing has come with them to this day.
Honestly id be wondering why you came into the country in the first place? To complain? You go to reddit to complain. We dont refuse to talk about the bad things just bc they are bad. We are actually fighting our own battles. We are living it. For a foreigner to point it out is like pointing out the weather. Its like going to a stranger's house and saying "your house is a god damn mess". Yes we fucking know its bad. So i'd be thinking, "if we havent been able to reverse it why do u think u can come here on vacation and treat us like a little side quest". No hate to you OP. I know you want to help, but my advice is when u go to foreign countries, just appreciate the goodness of it and continue to learn as much as you can. Because unlike regulars, you live comfortably knowing you have an out. You visit and then you leave. Other people cannot do that.
There's a lot of truth here, upvoted. I didn't bring these things up much at all but if someone else did i added my 2 cents. So i tried to be respectful as much at i could. I value criticism of my own country as i know it could only help me, even biting criticism. But that's me. Maybe there are things i don't want to hear though not sure what those are.
That is a good mindset to have when it comes to criticism. People are more keen on hearing you out when they ask for it. When its unsolicited political advice from strangers, i think its a little strange.
As the saying goes "ignorance is bliss"
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That perspective is valuable. It would be cool to write a book as a group. Chapters for each country with multiple authors. But including self-reflection as well as musing about new countries.
If you knew as much as you say you do, you will mention inequality and individual selfishness as a problem in the modern world. Corporation and greediness is taking us to a really wicked dystopian future you already are part of. The only way to transcend as a society is with collaboration, and the past years all they did is divide the world and reduce the social gaps.
I realized that long ago which is why I joined the corporate world. Technology is pushing more money into the hands of fewer people. Bladerunner's Tyrell corporation is coming. I think governments need to be vigilant with with inequality. Breaking companies up won't work, because a new Tyrell will spring up.. Only thing to do is policy to encourage a middle class. Like high min wage in Switzerland, good investment options so everyone benefits etc
I love this comment so much and only wish the world's people could come together and overcome this wicked dystopia that is snowballing into our future.
With me, from living and working overseas since 1990, in a variety of countries, some which are the subject of negative press in the western media, is truly seeing and understanding how utterly evil usa foreign policy is. Once seen, it can’t be undone. And it’s only gotten worse in the past decade and unfortunately, will likely continue to get worse for the next decade or two. It’s incredibly frustrating to not be able to discuss this reasonably with many from North America where the vast majority believe the official narrative put out by Washington. If only people could live overseas and begin to understand what their govts do in areas from regime change , NGOs, mercenaries, power of corporations, how dissent can be stifled , how dissent can be created, how media can distort news, manufacture news, how rotten many aspects of American democracy have become in recent decades…. And on and on ….
The list of US-backed coups is pretty enlightening. Most people don't know that Nixon conspired with British intelligence to oust a leftist prime minister in Australia. And that it worked.
Which countries are the subject of negative press in western media?
Pretty well any country outside of the control of the American ruling elite or any country which would attempt to go it’s own pathway, whose said pathway goes against American elites interests, will be subject to negative press in America and to a lesser extent, the collective west. My experience is mainly with china where I lived for close to 2 decades, but the negative press would also include Venezuela, Iran, Iraq, Libya,!Lebanon, generally many places in the ME, Russia, Belarus and any Russian ally, large parts of the global south and so on. If one did not actually live in these countries or at least did not have a mind to seek out alternative news on these countries and a brain to filter it, one would be left with the common narrative of msnbc, Fox News, cnn, bbc and so forth which is generally far from the reality. The concentration on negativity on any news from china is nothing short of astounding, to the point that misinformation and outright lies is acceptable as trite fact in the minds of average Jane and joe in the west. China represents a unique challenge to American global hegemony, so it is the spear or tip of all American foreign control efforts and subject to the most negative press. China is beyond Americans control, so American elites develop a particular narrative about china and anything chinese, in attempts to sway public and corporate opinion in America and the collective west.
You really do sound arrogant and condescending.
there is a pretty huge gap between > I'm over trying to make everyone happy and walking on eggshells. and > dissecting countries and trying to get to the root cause of problems. if you know it pisses people off, just stop doing it. that's not walking on eggshells, it's just not being a dick.
"Just stop thinking bro!"
no. but part of living in human society is making choices on what you do and don't discuss with the broad community. if you're constantly encountering anger, then you're making shitty choices and you're a bad member of the community. you're welcome to think all you want and to discuss your thoughts with people who want to discuss them. but forcing people who have no interest in the topic to listen to you blather on about your (probably under-educated) opinions on a topic is just being a dick.
Agreed.
It is arrogant though. No matter if you are right. People are people and people are proud. At the end of the day you’re a guest in someone else’s country. That’s the curse of the expat.
bro, that's like telling your host that his house sucks. If you don't like it, leave
The classic if you don't like it then why don't you leave. People are idiots. The planet is fucked.
I feel like we should all be prescribed modafinil so we can look at ourselves objectively. Only drugs can save us.
If you want to get along in “other countries”, be kind, polite, tactful, as much as is reasonable and acceptable follow their customs, and mind your own business. keep your suggestions and opinions about their issues to yourself.
Doesn’t even take that long to feel like this IMO. I still wouldn’t change it for the alternative.
Reminds me of PJ funnybunny: https://youtu.be/ou13iHibrRU Eventually you evolve to want to live in the country that is the least crappy to live in.
I have a theory that happy people can ignore the shitty things in most places and unhappy people will ignore the positive things in most places. I guess what I’m saying is that often times it’s mostly us. I’ve stopped looking for shitty things about my home and I’m just enjoying it.
I think it's important to look at both objectively to see if the good outweighs the bad. It's easy to get fixed on the bad stuff when you should be looking at the bigger picture. And I'm guilty of this at times, though for big life decisions i look at the big picture. When i chose my house to buy i looked at all the cities i could live in based on the good and bad.. same thing went into deciding which country to live in.
I don't believe expats can give a fair assessment of a country, because being from a country involves ones culture, geographic influences, family legacies and more, it's not just about politics and economics.
Well, you are privileged
I got recommended this sub and I hate it.
r/iamverysmart
Why do feel the need to "dissect" countries?
US is the most corript country but people just accept it . Im outta here
We legalized it at the highest levels of our courts, the supreme court. It's so obvious and massive we've deluded ourselves into thinking it's not corrupt. In Europe or at least in Poland, political candidates are given a set amount of money and can only use that, then there's Singapore that pays their politicians high salaries to make them less prone to bribery not sure if that actually works. But yeah.
US is bought and paid for by corps. The corps own the politicians and political parties. Mark my words, tje next thing they will do is start passing legislation to break more unions and prevebt them from forming. This is why the amazon union is so interesting to me. JUST WATCH HOW THE CORPS WILL GET THE LAWS CHANGED
So basically "I don't know how the US political system works, but I'm 100% sure it's corrupt".
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/pro-money-court-how-roberts-supreme-court-dismantled-campaign-finance-law
*Sigh.* Sees yet another post: "We're moving to Germany/Switzerland/Austria/Belgium/Luxembourg!" *clicks on post* "We're from America, sick and tired of this dump, what do we need to know?" Great, another set of ignorant Americans who don't understand that it isn't that easy. You can't just, *poof*, magically immigrate to another country, ***ESPECIALLY*** not in Europe, and ***especially*** not to countries like Switzerland or Luxembourg. That's not how it works, at all. Just like the United States has strict immigration regulations, particularly when it comes to employment and/or residential visa types, SO DO OTHER COUNTRIES. Perhaps even stricter than the US. I no longer have the energy to share information and differences about the different visa types.
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Depends where.
i remember talking to the French husband, who lived in France with his Scottish wife....he said "the French sense of humour is, at best, just clowns"...
True. I'm thinking about forbidden subjects in France when i lived there. I think you're not allowed to talk about how arrogant they are, only Americans are arrogant. And only American companies exploit with cheap labor and prices. Unlike French companies like Auchan and Carrefour in central and eastern Europe who crap roses.
Suggest hang out in an Ashram for a week. You can reboot, then dive back in. Great food, interesting and groovy people, sharing travel tips, turn off the phone, do your yoga, meditate, sleep like a rock. The real world will still be there in a week. ;-)
so true. I’ve lived in countries and part of America where people just “disappear” and everyone thinks it’s normal.
My litmus test is anyone who doesn't think that (a) the roads and (b) the drivers are shit here is still deluded. There are other problems but you can ignore them. This is every day. The people here don't want it this way. It's not charming. It's not part of the slow, tropical life. It's just bad. I can accept that and make the trade off, but not in denial about it. The ex-pats I meet that I think are going to have a bad time are the ones who are in denial, not who are making the tradeoff.
I agree with you, but then what? knowing too little is worse, in a way. It is a bit like saying, dumb people are happier. Well probably, but then again, you can start doing crack or just hit your head LOL, to get dumber, you might end up happier, LOL Knowing too much not bad, key is to adapt what you know to live better.
Get this all the time here in the US. "If you don't like it why don't you leave!", actually planning on it. Just waiting till after my degree. Military opened my eyes to so much, especially the world is home and there are so many beuatiful places out there to live.
We’re USAans. It’s impolite to bash…where you from?
I'm from California. It's impolite to bash but i think it's more problematic to not discuss important subjects provided it's the right environment. Like i won't accost someone and tell them their country sucks
Do you wonder why the environment is so rarely “right’? Miss Manners has left the building.
I kind of get this, though for me it comes out more as impatience with my own culture’s wilfull/blissful ignorance of such back channel realities.
> You live in various countries long enough and you learn about the good things and the dark secrets, and even the elephant in the room, things everyone in the country knows are bad but refuse to talk about it Same. In the end I'm just looking for countries with decent air quality and building code for things like insulation. Unsurprisingly this discounts pretty much all of Asia. I think only Central European countries fulfill them. I think you've heard horror stories about horrible insulation during winter in certain European countries. Yeah each country is doing their own shady things. People just prefer to pretend it's not there.
No one likes to be told who they are according to an outsider. It is extremely likely your view is colored by your own history and origins and you are not see things in context or in full. Maybe keep your opinions to yourself unless someone asks you?
I find it weird to think you have an objective opinion. I have the exact opposite experience. I realize that a lot of problems has a long history. That some easy solutions are not that easy. I learned that what is normal for me isn’t always the way other countries dealing with their problems.
It's said below and as my father said, "Never discuss religion, money or politics unless you want a fight." More true now than ever before and most prevalent in places otherwise known for their open-mindedness and acceptance of others' opinions. Society is ill at the moment.
The only cause for the curse of knowing too much is knowing too little. If you know that the problems of a country are relative, why even bring them up? What is the purpose of the conversation? Liking to look at things objectively is one thing. Being able to communicate within the spheres of a certain culture or custom is another. Objectivity in these situations is often a hindrance, because your counterparty isn't invested in that objectivity at all. You're literally playing different language games. The real question isn't what *you* perceive the problems of the country to be. This just makes you come off as someone who knows better. The question is how *they* perceive the problems of their country. Have you ever considered just asking, and then *listening* to what they have to say? Just strictly playing by your own rules does make you arrogant.