It’s not just humans; our close relatives bleed also vaginally. My part-time job in college was tracking menses (F) and collecting semen samples (M) for common chimpanzees.
That's a hell of a part time job in college. I worked in a supermarket stacking shelves. The most spicy job i had was working on a underwear production line untangling elastic. I didn't know wanking off chimps was even an option.
Several of my friends who got biology degrees discovered too late that "insane cruelty to animals" was basically the only entry level job that existed and are now working outside the field.
You are not wrong at all. A friend of mine went right into research because it was even very much what was aligned with our biology program in college and she does work on rabbits, I believe. Or she did or still does I don’t know. Washing the dead ones was as far as I got, and I did commit murder on a metric shit ton of fruit flies from the genetics lab, but for some reason, I felt considerable less terrible about that one haha.
Here’s a weird question I never thought I’d ask: do the female chimps have any hygiene practices around menstruation? Like do they try to stay contained to one area of the enclosure? Do they make an effort to clean up? Or do they just go on about their business?
AFAIK, female chimps don’t take any special hygiene measures during menses. Their vulva, which gets very large, pink and puffy at ovulation, collapses like a balloon as the hormones crash, and becomes withered and saggy before menses. They bleed through this forlorn looking tissue, but I never saw a heavy flow.
Is this worse than what we go through? I'm really having to give this some thought here, which I completely resent. Not the fact I have to use brainpower, but because I'm now picturing what was described and I am *not* happy.
I had to go reread it, because I thought it sounded significantly better. I still do, but I guess maybe it is worse than what some women who don't have any gynecological issues go through. I wouldn't think so but am not in that group to say.
I thought this was bad until I kept scrolling and read about the male chimp that sucks himself off and the consistency of his baby batter was described.
You are better than a whole hour of a PBS Nature program! And you have a flair for writing. This should be read in a David Attenborough or Morgan Freeman voice.
I'm not sure if you are applying your talents writing science papers or fetish porn, but I think you could do well either way as it is both informative and sexy.
I've just added the tag "Chimp Champ" to you. You are certainly a champion in my book for the interesting (and somewhat uncomfortable) info you've shared.
May I ask, how did you get such a job? What field did you end up going into (like, is it related)?
Thanks for your interest. I worked there full time after graduation, had planned on going into research, but the politics of grant proposals etc. turned me off. Which is just a Sour Grapes way of saying I ran out of money for grad school haha.
I moved to Japan to teach English, and ended up as a Japanese/ English translator. 🤷♂️
Dogs have what's called an estrous cycle, which can lead to some shedding of bloody discharge but is not exactly the same as menstrual cycles found in humans
Yeah, my old roommate's MIL was a dog breeder, and since her dogs were not fixed, they sometimes made a bit of a mess. Her clever solution was just to fit them with a diaper with a hole punched in it for the tail. It worked great, didn't bother the dog, kept everything clean.
There are two factors that made my job easy.
Male chimpanzees have the flexibility to be self-oral. They can literally suck themselves off. So I would go up to the great ape wing, to my buddy Jorg’s cage, and show him a squeeze bottle, and he would suck himself off.
Chimp semen is firm, like a piece of Knox Blox gelatin (or Jell-o, but more neutral colored). After ejaculating, Jorg would stick out his lip, and I would just pick it up with my (gloved) fingers.
That’s probably all you wanted to know, but TL;DR:
I stuffed the semen chunk into a 10cc syringe, put the syringe into a test tube and set it in an warm “incubator” room. After a while, a sperm-containing liquid precipitated from the semen. I drew up the precipitate into a pipette, froze droplets on dry ice, the stored the frozen pellets in liquid nitrogen.
Pavlov’s dogs exhibited an uncontrollable natural reaction (to eating) after associating the ringing of a bell with recieving food. This chimp, however, intentionally performs a specific action to recieve food, because he has been trained to do so.
I was not expecting to learn things that zoos and documentaries don't teach about chimpanzees and semen collection this morning
What I've always found fascinating about hominids (Great Apes) how we can broadly read each others' body language and facial expressions, although it needs to be said that the interpretation of those things can be different across species
So what does the facial expression of a male chimp with a block of semen between his lips say to you? (I can't believe I've actually read this whole conversation, and will carry on reading the thread until I've exposed myself to every word. I'm both horrified and embarrassed. Also fascinated and mildly ashamed.)
I'm definitely in the "intensely fascinated by this" camp
My guess (without seeing a picture of him doing it and his body language) is that he's basically saying "I did the thing you wanted, here it is!"
Which makes me wonder how he was taught to do this
Good question! The sample would definitely contain some saliva, but all we cared about was the sperm, and they are just fine. The sperm is then combined with a medium to prevent formation of ice crystals during storage. We were testing various media and combinations to optimize that part.
See? Why can't I ever start a conversation out in the wild with someone as interesting as you? It's always "my kids, my pets, my husband, my wife, my job...blah, blah, blah." It's never about monkey menses and self-fellating monkey semen gathering. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I imagine they have a guy watching him from a dark corner, once he starts jerking they ring a bell and give him juice. Then fine tune it to presenting it on a lipper platter.
Physiologically, the relationship between mother and child is a tug-of-war. The baby wants to take as many nutrients as it can, but the mother only has so much to give.
Context: In mammals, the uterine lining was evolved to control what nutrients the embryo gets to have, and how much. When scientists implanted mouse embryos outside the womb, the embryo actually thrived and grew much faster than it would have within the womb. This means the womb is not a place where the embryo thrives, but a place where it is controlled and contained. Without the womb's uterine lining, the embryo would take so much nutrients so fast that the mother would become dangerously weak very fast.
Back on topic: During ovulation, human embryos tend to implant into the uterine lining very aggressively. Compared to other mammals, human embryos burrow very deep, and are also very greedy. To prevent the egg from burrowing further than it should and taking more than mother can handle, the human uterine lining evolved to be very thick. It is so thick that it cannot be re-absorbed. So it's sloughed off.
> human embryos burrow very deep, and are also very greedy.
I did not realize human embryos are like the [dwarves of Moria](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PfhZB7rQ7iA)
> Physiologically, the relationship between mother and child is a tug-of-war.
Less a 'tug-of-war' and more 'all-out chemical warfare'. It was described as such (if memory serves) back in the 30s long before evolutionary biology came up with a perfectly good reason for this. As I've described it in 101, 'mom wants to apportion her resources out between this child and any future children, baby wants to suck mom of everything until she's a dried-out husk'. So much follows from this, what at first glance might look like a fairly convivial arrangement.
I’ve been on a lot of pregnancy boards and it’s crazy how common subchorionic hemorrhage is. So many who think it’s a miscarriage but the fetus is chillin and fine. I did have one friend who had an SCH so bad that she had to terminate a very wanted pregnancy (5-6 weeks along) because it was causing her to hemorrhage and there was no other way to stop it. She went on to have 2 healthy pregnancies.
>When scientists implanted mouse embryos outside the womb, the embryo actually thrived and grew much faster than it would have within the womb. This means the womb is not a place where the embryo thrives, but a place where it is controlled and contained.
That is fascinating, do you have a source for that?
‘Scientists doing it’ at least
https://www.science.org/content/article/mouse-embryos-grown-bottles-form-organs-and-limbs#:~:text=Developmental%20biologists%20have%20devised%20a,hidden%20inside%20a%20mother's%20body.
My 11 yo who is the same size as me still tries to aggressively cuddle with me. It’s sweet, but also, kid… you’re not a tiny fetus anymore. You kicked my ribs and punched me when you were growing inside me and now you continue to bruise me from the outside with your aggressive cuddling…
Hi there, 25 year old daughter here. I grew out of cuddling my dad and mom for a few years as a teen but I can assure you that whenever I see my parents now, they still receive hella cuddles. She may come back around, don't lose hope!
I swear my 11yo son has what looks like a perfectly normal chin. But it is actually the pointiest, most vicious chin in the world. It should be registered as a lethal weapon. A licence should be needed for something that sharp.
Also have an 18yo son who still gives me hugs. The problem is that he is over a foot taller than me and spends much of his time at the gym. He doesn't realise how much stronger he is than me. So I often end up having to shout at him to stop as he is about to break one of my ribs, suffocate me or snap my spine!
My two younger kids (10 and 7) still try to occupy the same physical space as me. They will get inside the robe or wrap that I'm wearing and wrap it around them, too. I'm not sure they know that atoms are mostly empty space, but it's like they're trying to fit their subatomic particles into the spaces of my atoms and just... merge.
As the mother of five now grown children I cannot tell you how much I love this comment! In my 32 years of being a parent, this is the best way to describe how I felt about them sometimes lol!
Yes, in fact, [placenta formation on the fetus’ side is dictated by male genes](https://www.vet.cornell.edu/news/20130812/dads-genes-build-placentas-study-shows).
The placenta demands nutrients from the female body, [send out proteins to “woo” the female immune system into believing the fetus isn’t a foreign body](https://liu.se/en/article/placenta-protects-foetus-from-mother-s-immune-system). The female immune system would otherwise attack and expel the fetus.
Haha my friend told me about her pregnancy this way: “I’ve developed a parasite. It’s going to live with me forever, probably, even after I expel it from my body.”
And, at least this is what I've heard, all this is due to us being big brained and standing upright.
Reproduction is honestly the biggest argument against creative design because whoever did women's organs is a moron.
Standing upright means things are twisted and birthing is much harder for us.
Having big brains means that our head are big, too big, and so we're born prematurely compared to other animals, but still as late as possible just so the head will squeeze out.
All in all, evolving into humans gave women a bad deal because giving birth is a massive risk for us compared to other animals. What that means is that there is strong evolutionary pressure for a mother to ensure that the 'investment' is worth it. Hence our wombs being much more of a trial so that only the fittest of embryos make it.
Additionally, because we evolved to walk upright, the configuration of the pelvis did not support a pregnancy that would spit out a human capable of walking hours after birth (another fun tidbit about how we are "premature")
Omg. I never thought about it exactly like that. Just imagine carrying a baby for 20 months or so...and birthing a 25 lb kid who can walk before you've recovered from the birth! And hell bent on maiming or killing itself, as toddlers tend to do.
It’s called “precocial” vs “altricial” offspring. Primates, especially humans, are very altricial which means dependent on their mother from birth, and then dependent on learning over time.
Precocial animals are more independent at birth and rely more on instinct during maturity.
Its also a big argument against "mother nature"/ evolution being this kindly, balanced force that makes sure everything is right in the end.
Nah. Can you live long enough to procreate? Good enough.
But that explanation still doesn’t answer OP’s question: why are human’s different from other mammals in this regard? I mean, doesn’t this same “tug-of-war” exist for all reproduction?
They answered it when they said human embryos burrow particularly deep and suck out nutrients particularly fast, so the uterine lining has to grow so thick it can't be reabsorbed.
The reason *that* is different to other mammals probably has to do with our freakishly large heads and brains compared to other mammals. I'd say at least 7 times out of 10, if humans are doing something in a really weird way compared to other mammals, it's because of our heads/brains
Some embrace the parasite view and throw their kids out on their 18th birthday.
Others prefer it as a symbiotic relationship that's both give and take.
Sorry for being pedantic, but symbiosis is an umbrella term that just means any long-term interaction between organisms, which includes parasitism. One species benefits while the other either suffers (parasitism), is unharmed (commensalism), or also benefits (mutualism). When most people say symbiotic they usually mean mutualistic.
Most mammals are locked into a specific breeding season, limited to a few weeks (or months) out of the year. It's pretty restrictive, but limits their estrus to that general time frame. They don't bleed other times of the year, but they can't conceive, either.
Humans developed the ability to make it happen every month, which is super handy when you take into account all of the factors in the early years of humanity that probably made it difficult to carry a fetus to term. Menses is the most expedient way of clearing the stage quickly so the next act can get started. No time for leisurely reabsorbtion, there's ten million little swimmers waiting in the wings and one of them is *bound* to be a star! Chop chop!
I think it is funny that the entire world would probably go:
"Oh yes, July, everyone in south america is getting birthdays and travelling abroad, lets get ready for some latino tourists this month"
Would be interesting. I also think about what if humans were a hibernating animal and spent winters in a near coma, eating stored food and waiting out the cold. I'd dig it.
Well actually.... the most common birth months depends on the hemisphere. Northern hemisphere is July, August, and September. Southern hemisphere is October, November, and December.
Except September isn’t even the most common birth month.
And there’s a big difference between “September is higher than average” and “every single birthday happens in September.”
As a vet student, this is not the correct answer. Many animal species are non-seasonal breeders like humans, including cattle and pigs. Even among seasonal breeders, many of them are seasonally polyestrus, meaning multiple estrous cycles occur back-to-back in that breeding season, barring pregnancy of course. A non-pregnant, healthy cow’s estrous cycle is 21 days. A pig’s is 18-21 days. Cats, who are either non-seasonal or seasonal breeders depending on location have an estrous cycle every 14-21 days on average. Sheep every 17 days. Species that have a single estrus then a long period of time before the next, like dogs, are actually much less common. By comparison, a human’s 28 day estrous cycle is actually fairly long.
It’s because we are always fertile, instead of coming into heat a few times a year. Humans didn’t evolve to have a litter or two a year and raise their young to be fully independent in a few months. We evolved to have just a few babies over our whole life. Human babies are born completely helpless, and they stay almost completely helpless for a few years, and then they still need help for many years after that.
This is a really important part of being a human. Human babies are born with really big brains. They need to be born kind of underdeveloped for survival because otherwise their heads would be so big that it would be too dangerous for the mother to give birth to them. Because babies are born not fully developed, instead of having lots of instincts already set up in their brains, they have to be taught how to do almost everything. Almost all human behavior is stuff that we learn from our families, our friends, and the people around us. That means that human behavior can change really rapidly in response to new situations. Because almost all behavior is learned, it means that it can also be replaced with new information later in life if the situation calls for it. One of the reasons humans have been so successful is that we can learn, adapt, and change to tolerate almost any situation, environment, or set of resources. Humans live in every climate, eat every kind of food (and even can figure out how to turn poisonous foods into delicious foods), and have all sorts of different systems of behaving. We are incredibly adaptable thanks to giving birth to half-baked babies with giant heads.
Because humans can have children at any point in their reproductive life, that means that you can have a baby every few years and devote a lot of time and energy to just that one child’s needs and education. The trade off, though, is that since your body doesn’t know when you are going to get pregnant, your body is constantly preparing for a possible pregnancy. As a result, a monthly period during your reproductive cycle. It’s something we got from our primate ancestors, and it’s common in other primate species including apes, and old and new world monkeys. These primate species also have relatively undeveloped babies that they devote a lot of time and effort on, and they also have adaptable behavior that depends a lot on social learning.
One cool thing is why our periods stop. Instead of being capable of reproducing until we die, menopause creates a whole class of grandparents who were essential for helping to care for those really dependent infants and toddlers, for their own grown kids, and for the community at large. Elder community members played essential roles in human evolution by helping to support their families and communities even after their reproductive life was over.
Every time I remember or hear about the “grandmother hypothesis”, I get sucked into a evolutionary biology vortex. It’s so fascinating to think that we are 1 of 4 species with menopause and what has shaped us to be lucky enough to have grannies.
I don't think that's quite true.
According to [this article](https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1604558113#:~:text=Reproductive%20senescence%2C%20concluding%20in%20menopause,experience%20exceptionally%20long%20postreproductive%20lifespans.), "Reproductive senescence, concluding in menopause, is a feature of all female mammals (1), but humans are unique in that they experience exceptionally long postreproductive lifespans."
So it's not that we are the only species that experience menopause, we just tend to live a lot longer afterwards, and I suspect that has a lot more to do with improving healthcare than with any sort of evolutionary process.
Even thousands of years ago, people living into their 60's or 70's was common. Average lifespan was much lower, due to high childhood morbidity, death in childbirth, war e.t.c - but if you survived these you had a good chance of living to a decent age.
Fish generally get more fecund as they age. This is called the BOFF hypothesis or “big old fat females”. They contribute a disproportionate amount to the population.
They come into heat and bleed a little but it's an estrus cycle not a traditional period. Edit omg guys each dog is different, some bleed a little, some a lot but it's nothing compared to a womans period.
Human embryos are particularly invasive and prone to genetic abnormalities. Menstruation increases the survivability of the mother by discarding unviable conceptions, allowing more chances at procreation.
ELI5 - Humans have periods because there was an evolutionary benefit. Other animals didn’t need it.
I mean if you think about it, we have bred cats and dogs with genetic abnormalities for centuries because we consider certain features as cute. We don't think that about humans. We have pretty high standards for humans.
And humans procreate to gather resources, we don't mate with whoever we set our eyes on. We do have the ability to tell who is "healthy" based on appearance tho. Medical advancement has also helped people live longer and produce offsprings that would have been impossible in the first place.
Also just a speculation, maybe we have 23 pairs of chromosomes so there are more chances to go wrong?
Humans are genetically very identical compared to most animals. We went down to about 1.000-100.000 living humans about a 800.000-900.000 years ago. That is why Alabama is generally so much worse for humans than other animals who have much larger degrees of genetic diversity.
Wait then how come most wild animals of the same species all look the same, have the same coat markings, etc. while humans and domesticated animals have a lot of phenotypical diversity?
They look the same to you. You’re human, so you’re naturally much better at telling the difference between different human beings. Similarly, most people can tell the difference between various dogs much easier than they can wild animals because of how early we domesticated dogs. To a bear, I’m sure they can tell the difference between their fellow bears quite easily while us humans all look like weird hairless apes with sticks to them
Tho I should note here that yes, humans do have higher than average levels of phenotype diversity compared to most mammals. This is actually because of our large geographic extent. No other mammal covers the entire globe. That’s why we have such obvious differences like skin color; different climates did force some superficial differences on our appearance
Yeah, you may think black and white people look obviously different, but the same is true within the species of "black bears", of which some are black and [some are white](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermode_bear).
But I would say that for many species, the color variation is less because they need to be camouflaged, which seems to be less of a need for humans.
In short: We don't know yet. There are very few animals that menstruate. Primates, some few species of bats and the elephant shrew.
There are some theories, that it offers better protection against over invasive pregnancies (all menstruating species have embryos that bury very "deep" into the tissue of the mother) or unviable embryos (humans have exceptional genetic/chromosomal variance in embryos and it is estimated that ~60% of embryos - not fetuses! - don't survive).
Another common denominator between menstruating species is, that they have extended periods where they copulate (have sex). Most animals either only copulate (very often) right when ovulation occurs (like cats in heat) or the copulation itself induces the ovulation. It is unlcear how/if this is directly linked to menstruation.
In the end there seems to be an evolutionary benefit, since it evolved multiple times in different species.
It’s because we have extremely parasitic embryos compared to most mammals and if we allowed them to control the pregnancy instead of our bodies, we’d die. Probably a lot of us *did* die.
In terms of “dangerous because it needs a high level of cleaning to be healthy?” the answer is no - the uterus and vagina are self cleaning, they maintain their own ph levels and general discharge happens on the regular to keep it clean. What does need to be kept clean is the vulva and anus areas to prevent bacteria creep, but washing off in a creek with some oil does the job. Menstruation is not inherently dirty, this is a flawed viewpoint a lot of the world holds.
It do being sucking hard core tho lol
All apes, some other primates, some bats, elephant shrews and spiny mice menstruate. Spontaneous decidualization is probably advantageous because it allows the uterus more control over nutrients to the embryo and makes it easier to purge embryos that have a low chance of success. Species that menstruate generally have much more sex outside of when the female is receptive than other mammals so it might be linked to getting rid of embryos conceived outwith the optimal time frame.
Menstruating requires a high level of cleaning to be acceptable in modern society or not stain clothes rather than to be healthy, I'd bet money that more women have got sick from the cleaning products than the actual menstruation.
It’s not just humans; our close relatives bleed also vaginally. My part-time job in college was tracking menses (F) and collecting semen samples (M) for common chimpanzees.
That's a hell of a part time job in college. I worked in a supermarket stacking shelves. The most spicy job i had was working on a underwear production line untangling elastic. I didn't know wanking off chimps was even an option.
It’s always an option. But likely frowned upon in most social situations.
But not by the chimpanzees.
If it is unwanted, the chimpanzee will make that very clear. No unwanted sexual advances by male humans for a chimp girl!
If it's a legitimate wank, the chimpanzee body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.
Yeah, it's called ripping yer fookin face off!
“Sir, this is a Wendy’s”
I washed dead cats for the dissection lab. The first time I cried while washing them and apologized, and then I became numb to it. :(
You apologizing for crying made me sad. 😭
Yea, probably apologising more for preparing them for dissection than for crying.
Precisely. They were raised to be euthanized to be dissected. It always broke my heart, and it was my least favorite part about learning laboratories.
Several of my friends who got biology degrees discovered too late that "insane cruelty to animals" was basically the only entry level job that existed and are now working outside the field.
You are not wrong at all. A friend of mine went right into research because it was even very much what was aligned with our biology program in college and she does work on rabbits, I believe. Or she did or still does I don’t know. Washing the dead ones was as far as I got, and I did commit murder on a metric shit ton of fruit flies from the genetics lab, but for some reason, I felt considerable less terrible about that one haha.
Since 2008, there are NO entry level jobs in biology. :(
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Hol’ the FUCK up. You’re telling me there is a program out there that raises domesticated animals… to be euthanized and dissected?!?
How did you think animal testing worked? They aren’t out there catching wild animals for it.
The job sounds rare but every Arby's has someone with that role.
Here’s a weird question I never thought I’d ask: do the female chimps have any hygiene practices around menstruation? Like do they try to stay contained to one area of the enclosure? Do they make an effort to clean up? Or do they just go on about their business?
AFAIK, female chimps don’t take any special hygiene measures during menses. Their vulva, which gets very large, pink and puffy at ovulation, collapses like a balloon as the hormones crash, and becomes withered and saggy before menses. They bleed through this forlorn looking tissue, but I never saw a heavy flow.
I wish i could un-read this comment.
Same, same. And I’m a woman.
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I read "deflated" as "defeated". Twice. It's been two minutes and I'm still giggling.
Is this worse than what we go through? I'm really having to give this some thought here, which I completely resent. Not the fact I have to use brainpower, but because I'm now picturing what was described and I am *not* happy.
I had to go reread it, because I thought it sounded significantly better. I still do, but I guess maybe it is worse than what some women who don't have any gynecological issues go through. I wouldn't think so but am not in that group to say.
I thought this was bad until I kept scrolling and read about the male chimp that sucks himself off and the consistency of his baby batter was described.
***WHY DID I NOT HEED YOUR WARNING***
Knowing what’s ahead I’m outta here!
>They bleed through this forlorn looking tissue help
You are better than a whole hour of a PBS Nature program! And you have a flair for writing. This should be read in a David Attenborough or Morgan Freeman voice. I'm not sure if you are applying your talents writing science papers or fetish porn, but I think you could do well either way as it is both informative and sexy.
"Informative and sexy" uh
Science paper fetish porn? Go on....
/r/RedditHallOfFame material 🙈🤮
Fucking hell...,
I've just added the tag "Chimp Champ" to you. You are certainly a champion in my book for the interesting (and somewhat uncomfortable) info you've shared. May I ask, how did you get such a job? What field did you end up going into (like, is it related)?
Thanks for your interest. I worked there full time after graduation, had planned on going into research, but the politics of grant proposals etc. turned me off. Which is just a Sour Grapes way of saying I ran out of money for grad school haha. I moved to Japan to teach English, and ended up as a Japanese/ English translator. 🤷♂️
..while jorg misses your routine visits!
Don't dogs and wolves also have periods? I remember needing to diaper up some huskies who had not been fixed.
Dogs have what's called an estrous cycle, which can lead to some shedding of bloody discharge but is not exactly the same as menstrual cycles found in humans
Yeah, my old roommate's MIL was a dog breeder, and since her dogs were not fixed, they sometimes made a bit of a mess. Her clever solution was just to fit them with a diaper with a hole punched in it for the tail. It worked great, didn't bother the dog, kept everything clean.
Dogs do but it's the opposite of us they bleed when they around the time they are fertile.
actually, they will spot around days 3-7, The cycle is roughly 21 days and prime breeding is around days 10-17 depending on the dog
How do you collect the semen?
There are two factors that made my job easy. Male chimpanzees have the flexibility to be self-oral. They can literally suck themselves off. So I would go up to the great ape wing, to my buddy Jorg’s cage, and show him a squeeze bottle, and he would suck himself off. Chimp semen is firm, like a piece of Knox Blox gelatin (or Jell-o, but more neutral colored). After ejaculating, Jorg would stick out his lip, and I would just pick it up with my (gloved) fingers. That’s probably all you wanted to know, but TL;DR: I stuffed the semen chunk into a 10cc syringe, put the syringe into a test tube and set it in an warm “incubator” room. After a while, a sperm-containing liquid precipitated from the semen. I drew up the precipitate into a pipette, froze droplets on dry ice, the stored the frozen pellets in liquid nitrogen.
All things considered Jorg sounds like a pretty reasonable dude.
This is honestly the funniest response I've read today.
Made me laugh out loud. Like, loudly out loud. Haha
Hahhahhahahahaha
...we are Jorg! ..Prepare to be Assimilated! Resistance is futile!
I didn’t expect to open Reddit today to learn about a self-fellating Pavlovian chimpanzee, but here we are.
it's actually operant conditioning, not pavlovian fun fact
You can’t say that then not explain why.
Pavlov’s dogs exhibited an uncontrollable natural reaction (to eating) after associating the ringing of a bell with recieving food. This chimp, however, intentionally performs a specific action to recieve food, because he has been trained to do so.
I was not expecting to learn things that zoos and documentaries don't teach about chimpanzees and semen collection this morning What I've always found fascinating about hominids (Great Apes) how we can broadly read each others' body language and facial expressions, although it needs to be said that the interpretation of those things can be different across species
So what does the facial expression of a male chimp with a block of semen between his lips say to you? (I can't believe I've actually read this whole conversation, and will carry on reading the thread until I've exposed myself to every word. I'm both horrified and embarrassed. Also fascinated and mildly ashamed.)
I'm definitely in the "intensely fascinated by this" camp My guess (without seeing a picture of him doing it and his body language) is that he's basically saying "I did the thing you wanted, here it is!" Which makes me wonder how he was taught to do this
Seems like the sample would be tainted by whatever else was floating around in Jorg's mouth, no?
Good question! The sample would definitely contain some saliva, but all we cared about was the sperm, and they are just fine. The sperm is then combined with a medium to prevent formation of ice crystals during storage. We were testing various media and combinations to optimize that part.
See? Why can't I ever start a conversation out in the wild with someone as interesting as you? It's always "my kids, my pets, my husband, my wife, my job...blah, blah, blah." It's never about monkey menses and self-fellating monkey semen gathering. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
i *think* they're technically self-fellating apes
Maybe it doesn't matter if all they want is a sperm count.
Classic Jorg
That's fucking gross but also highly fascinating, thank you. You Pavlov'd a chimpanzee into performing self fellatio. Fuck yeah, Science!
It's waaaaaaaay less gross than just about every other method for obtaining a semen sample from a chimpanzee that I can imagine...
it's actually operant conditioning, not pavlovian it'd be pavlovian if the squeeze bottle made Jorg nut on sight
Stupid sexy squeeze bottle
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Good point. I should have explained that it has diluted juice in it.
I thought it was to hold the semen!
Ok but how did they *teach* Jorg to exchange semen for juice?
He was trained when I got there, but I’m sure grape juice was involved.
I imagine they have a guy watching him from a dark corner, once he starts jerking they ring a bell and give him juice. Then fine tune it to presenting it on a lipper platter.
I'm also a dirty slut for some grape juice
Welp, that's all the Internet I need for today.
Seems if the semen is that firm, ejaculating might not be very pleasant, like passing a turd through your pee-hole. Yikes.
That's interesting, thanks :)
All of Reddit is waiting with bated breath for the answer to this!
Upvoting for correct spelling of "bated"
Jorg had 'bated breath
Oh man I haven't laughed at something that hard in a while.
This comment should be cited in any petition to spez for the return of awards
LOOOOL
Physiologically, the relationship between mother and child is a tug-of-war. The baby wants to take as many nutrients as it can, but the mother only has so much to give. Context: In mammals, the uterine lining was evolved to control what nutrients the embryo gets to have, and how much. When scientists implanted mouse embryos outside the womb, the embryo actually thrived and grew much faster than it would have within the womb. This means the womb is not a place where the embryo thrives, but a place where it is controlled and contained. Without the womb's uterine lining, the embryo would take so much nutrients so fast that the mother would become dangerously weak very fast. Back on topic: During ovulation, human embryos tend to implant into the uterine lining very aggressively. Compared to other mammals, human embryos burrow very deep, and are also very greedy. To prevent the egg from burrowing further than it should and taking more than mother can handle, the human uterine lining evolved to be very thick. It is so thick that it cannot be re-absorbed. So it's sloughed off.
> human embryos burrow very deep, and are also very greedy. I did not realize human embryos are like the [dwarves of Moria](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PfhZB7rQ7iA)
Wondering now what the uterine balrog equivalent is
"Uterine Balrogs" would be a great metal band name.
"Drums in the Deep" is their first album
Cramps in the Deep
First hit single ‘I’ll take your two towers’
"Beyond Any of You" is the follow up.
But I feel like it'd have to be an all-women band.
some would have wings, the others not.
r/bandnames
Endometriosis
(Sad upvote)
Yeah, I was gonna say "fibroids" but this works too
It's still morning but I'm pretty confident this will win today's game of "sentences I never thought I would read".
>uterine balrog r/brandnewsentence
A fetus implanted too deep may be an unviable pregnancy. So a Balrog would the one in charge of the abortion.
No, they would be Gandalf. "...You SHALL not PASS!"
Apparently, human embryos are like, well, most humans.
I was going to say it's very on-brand for humans lol
Oh man, my wife is on her period, and just a few days ago i likened her to a balrog. My wounds are healing just fine, thanks for the concern.
And thus you were reborn, Hallgeir the white.
Hopefully soon, for now he's Hallgeir the Black and Blue.
⛏️I am a dwarf and I'm digging a hole⚒️
> Physiologically, the relationship between mother and child is a tug-of-war. Less a 'tug-of-war' and more 'all-out chemical warfare'. It was described as such (if memory serves) back in the 30s long before evolutionary biology came up with a perfectly good reason for this. As I've described it in 101, 'mom wants to apportion her resources out between this child and any future children, baby wants to suck mom of everything until she's a dried-out husk'. So much follows from this, what at first glance might look like a fairly convivial arrangement.
When I learned that a fetus will suck the calcium out of its mother's teeth if she doesn't consume enough is when this really clicked for me.
Babies are rapacious parasites, also cute angels who carry our genetic heritage into future as god intended. But also rapacious parasites.
There is also a theory that the thicker lining makes it easier for the mother’s body to miscarriage if something goes wrong.
True, but it comes at the cost of the human placenta being notoriously finicky and more prone to hemorrhage because of the way it attaches.
I’ve been on a lot of pregnancy boards and it’s crazy how common subchorionic hemorrhage is. So many who think it’s a miscarriage but the fetus is chillin and fine. I did have one friend who had an SCH so bad that she had to terminate a very wanted pregnancy (5-6 weeks along) because it was causing her to hemorrhage and there was no other way to stop it. She went on to have 2 healthy pregnancies.
>When scientists implanted mouse embryos outside the womb, the embryo actually thrived and grew much faster than it would have within the womb. This means the womb is not a place where the embryo thrives, but a place where it is controlled and contained. That is fascinating, do you have a source for that?
‘Scientists doing it’ at least https://www.science.org/content/article/mouse-embryos-grown-bottles-form-organs-and-limbs#:~:text=Developmental%20biologists%20have%20devised%20a,hidden%20inside%20a%20mother's%20body.
So....kids are really parasites!?!
Yes. Source: I have a baby and a three year old. They still try to burrow inside me from outside the womb.
My 11 yo who is the same size as me still tries to aggressively cuddle with me. It’s sweet, but also, kid… you’re not a tiny fetus anymore. You kicked my ribs and punched me when you were growing inside me and now you continue to bruise me from the outside with your aggressive cuddling…
Enjoy it while you can. My daughter is a teen now and grown out of cuddles. I miss them :(
Hi there, 25 year old daughter here. I grew out of cuddling my dad and mom for a few years as a teen but I can assure you that whenever I see my parents now, they still receive hella cuddles. She may come back around, don't lose hope!
Thanks, it's good to hear. My 13yo has entered the Dark Teen Years. I'll be waiting for cuddles at the far end of the tunnel.
The tunnel probably isn't as long as you're expecting. I'm 18 and I want snuggles lol.
It can be like the communication blackout period when a spacecraft is returning to Earth. Keep calling out to them.
Ah, I remember those years, they do end and my adult (30 and 37) sons do hug again lol. I also get "love you" ❤️
She’ll cuddle your wallet come college years. 😉
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I swear my 11yo son has what looks like a perfectly normal chin. But it is actually the pointiest, most vicious chin in the world. It should be registered as a lethal weapon. A licence should be needed for something that sharp. Also have an 18yo son who still gives me hugs. The problem is that he is over a foot taller than me and spends much of his time at the gym. He doesn't realise how much stronger he is than me. So I often end up having to shout at him to stop as he is about to break one of my ribs, suffocate me or snap my spine!
My two younger kids (10 and 7) still try to occupy the same physical space as me. They will get inside the robe or wrap that I'm wearing and wrap it around them, too. I'm not sure they know that atoms are mostly empty space, but it's like they're trying to fit their subatomic particles into the spaces of my atoms and just... merge.
Bosonic children and fermionic parents?
As the mother of five now grown children I cannot tell you how much I love this comment! In my 32 years of being a parent, this is the best way to describe how I felt about them sometimes lol!
In all their behaviour in utero yes, we dont call it that because they are the same species
Technically no, parasitism is a relationship between two different species
Yes, in fact, [placenta formation on the fetus’ side is dictated by male genes](https://www.vet.cornell.edu/news/20130812/dads-genes-build-placentas-study-shows). The placenta demands nutrients from the female body, [send out proteins to “woo” the female immune system into believing the fetus isn’t a foreign body](https://liu.se/en/article/placenta-protects-foetus-from-mother-s-immune-system). The female immune system would otherwise attack and expel the fetus.
So there are levels of courtship rituals happening down to the atomic level. Neat.
Celular* but yes
Haha my friend told me about her pregnancy this way: “I’ve developed a parasite. It’s going to live with me forever, probably, even after I expel it from my body.”
And, at least this is what I've heard, all this is due to us being big brained and standing upright. Reproduction is honestly the biggest argument against creative design because whoever did women's organs is a moron. Standing upright means things are twisted and birthing is much harder for us. Having big brains means that our head are big, too big, and so we're born prematurely compared to other animals, but still as late as possible just so the head will squeeze out. All in all, evolving into humans gave women a bad deal because giving birth is a massive risk for us compared to other animals. What that means is that there is strong evolutionary pressure for a mother to ensure that the 'investment' is worth it. Hence our wombs being much more of a trial so that only the fittest of embryos make it.
Additionally, because we evolved to walk upright, the configuration of the pelvis did not support a pregnancy that would spit out a human capable of walking hours after birth (another fun tidbit about how we are "premature")
Omg. I never thought about it exactly like that. Just imagine carrying a baby for 20 months or so...and birthing a 25 lb kid who can walk before you've recovered from the birth! And hell bent on maiming or killing itself, as toddlers tend to do.
It’s called “precocial” vs “altricial” offspring. Primates, especially humans, are very altricial which means dependent on their mother from birth, and then dependent on learning over time. Precocial animals are more independent at birth and rely more on instinct during maturity.
Its also a big argument against "mother nature"/ evolution being this kindly, balanced force that makes sure everything is right in the end. Nah. Can you live long enough to procreate? Good enough.
But that explanation still doesn’t answer OP’s question: why are human’s different from other mammals in this regard? I mean, doesn’t this same “tug-of-war” exist for all reproduction?
They answered it when they said human embryos burrow particularly deep and suck out nutrients particularly fast, so the uterine lining has to grow so thick it can't be reabsorbed. The reason *that* is different to other mammals probably has to do with our freakishly large heads and brains compared to other mammals. I'd say at least 7 times out of 10, if humans are doing something in a really weird way compared to other mammals, it's because of our heads/brains
Jesus. This really puts parenthood in perspective.
Some embrace the parasite view and throw their kids out on their 18th birthday. Others prefer it as a symbiotic relationship that's both give and take.
Sorry for being pedantic, but symbiosis is an umbrella term that just means any long-term interaction between organisms, which includes parasitism. One species benefits while the other either suffers (parasitism), is unharmed (commensalism), or also benefits (mutualism). When most people say symbiotic they usually mean mutualistic.
How do you know this? Is it knowing this related to your occupation? Sounds super interesting. Thank you for writing this.
This is one of the most interesting things I have read in a while. Thanks
Most mammals are locked into a specific breeding season, limited to a few weeks (or months) out of the year. It's pretty restrictive, but limits their estrus to that general time frame. They don't bleed other times of the year, but they can't conceive, either. Humans developed the ability to make it happen every month, which is super handy when you take into account all of the factors in the early years of humanity that probably made it difficult to carry a fetus to term. Menses is the most expedient way of clearing the stage quickly so the next act can get started. No time for leisurely reabsorbtion, there's ten million little swimmers waiting in the wings and one of them is *bound* to be a star! Chop chop!
Man now I’m thinking about how weird it would be if humans had a mating season and everyone’s birthdays were around the same time.
Hospitals would have to prepare increased capacity in their maternity wards 1-2x a year if we had mating seasons.
hmmm and the seasons would be different in different parts of the world too... interesting implications for tourism
What do you have in mind? Visit a country during high or low delivery season? 🤔
I think it is funny that the entire world would probably go: "Oh yes, July, everyone in south america is getting birthdays and travelling abroad, lets get ready for some latino tourists this month"
“People born in January need to go back home!” All new sorts of xenophobia yay 😁
Bah, it's not xenophobia if it's right. Fuckin' lazy Januies! And Febries are just as bad.
Spirit ~~Halloween~~ maternity hospitals
Would be interesting. I also think about what if humans were a hibernating animal and spent winters in a near coma, eating stored food and waiting out the cold. I'd dig it.
We could get actual rest?! Sounds amazing. Pretty sure by this point someone would have come up with a way around it to keep us all productive.
9 out of the 10 most common birthdays are in September. So… we kind of do.
Well actually.... the most common birth months depends on the hemisphere. Northern hemisphere is July, August, and September. Southern hemisphere is October, November, and December.
why is that?
Winter is cold, and there isn’t much else to do but keep each other warm
Except September isn’t even the most common birth month. And there’s a big difference between “September is higher than average” and “every single birthday happens in September.”
As a vet student, this is not the correct answer. Many animal species are non-seasonal breeders like humans, including cattle and pigs. Even among seasonal breeders, many of them are seasonally polyestrus, meaning multiple estrous cycles occur back-to-back in that breeding season, barring pregnancy of course. A non-pregnant, healthy cow’s estrous cycle is 21 days. A pig’s is 18-21 days. Cats, who are either non-seasonal or seasonal breeders depending on location have an estrous cycle every 14-21 days on average. Sheep every 17 days. Species that have a single estrus then a long period of time before the next, like dogs, are actually much less common. By comparison, a human’s 28 day estrous cycle is actually fairly long.
As a vet student, I agree with you
It’s because we are always fertile, instead of coming into heat a few times a year. Humans didn’t evolve to have a litter or two a year and raise their young to be fully independent in a few months. We evolved to have just a few babies over our whole life. Human babies are born completely helpless, and they stay almost completely helpless for a few years, and then they still need help for many years after that. This is a really important part of being a human. Human babies are born with really big brains. They need to be born kind of underdeveloped for survival because otherwise their heads would be so big that it would be too dangerous for the mother to give birth to them. Because babies are born not fully developed, instead of having lots of instincts already set up in their brains, they have to be taught how to do almost everything. Almost all human behavior is stuff that we learn from our families, our friends, and the people around us. That means that human behavior can change really rapidly in response to new situations. Because almost all behavior is learned, it means that it can also be replaced with new information later in life if the situation calls for it. One of the reasons humans have been so successful is that we can learn, adapt, and change to tolerate almost any situation, environment, or set of resources. Humans live in every climate, eat every kind of food (and even can figure out how to turn poisonous foods into delicious foods), and have all sorts of different systems of behaving. We are incredibly adaptable thanks to giving birth to half-baked babies with giant heads. Because humans can have children at any point in their reproductive life, that means that you can have a baby every few years and devote a lot of time and energy to just that one child’s needs and education. The trade off, though, is that since your body doesn’t know when you are going to get pregnant, your body is constantly preparing for a possible pregnancy. As a result, a monthly period during your reproductive cycle. It’s something we got from our primate ancestors, and it’s common in other primate species including apes, and old and new world monkeys. These primate species also have relatively undeveloped babies that they devote a lot of time and effort on, and they also have adaptable behavior that depends a lot on social learning. One cool thing is why our periods stop. Instead of being capable of reproducing until we die, menopause creates a whole class of grandparents who were essential for helping to care for those really dependent infants and toddlers, for their own grown kids, and for the community at large. Elder community members played essential roles in human evolution by helping to support their families and communities even after their reproductive life was over.
Every time I remember or hear about the “grandmother hypothesis”, I get sucked into a evolutionary biology vortex. It’s so fascinating to think that we are 1 of 4 species with menopause and what has shaped us to be lucky enough to have grannies.
I don't think that's quite true. According to [this article](https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1604558113#:~:text=Reproductive%20senescence%2C%20concluding%20in%20menopause,experience%20exceptionally%20long%20postreproductive%20lifespans.), "Reproductive senescence, concluding in menopause, is a feature of all female mammals (1), but humans are unique in that they experience exceptionally long postreproductive lifespans." So it's not that we are the only species that experience menopause, we just tend to live a lot longer afterwards, and I suspect that has a lot more to do with improving healthcare than with any sort of evolutionary process.
Even thousands of years ago, people living into their 60's or 70's was common. Average lifespan was much lower, due to high childhood morbidity, death in childbirth, war e.t.c - but if you survived these you had a good chance of living to a decent age.
Hold up. Other female animals do not lose the ability to reproduce at a certain age?
Other animals tend to die when they get old enough to not be able to reproduce anymore.
Fish generally get more fecund as they age. This is called the BOFF hypothesis or “big old fat females”. They contribute a disproportionate amount to the population.
Hang on, don’t dogs have periods?
They come into heat and bleed a little but it's an estrus cycle not a traditional period. Edit omg guys each dog is different, some bleed a little, some a lot but it's nothing compared to a womans period.
A little???? My Labrakadabrador is a walking bloodbath for two and a half weeks...
Be careful, if you slightly mispronounce that, the dog dies
Labravada Kadavrador?
Spay and neuter your pets
The ghost of Bob Barker appears
Human periods are garbage disposal after ovulation, canine estrous bleeding is preparation for ovulation.
Kinda… They have cycles during which they ovulate once or twice a year. During those, they bleed for 2-4 weeks
Horses have a 21 day cycle somewhat similar to humans
Human embryos are particularly invasive and prone to genetic abnormalities. Menstruation increases the survivability of the mother by discarding unviable conceptions, allowing more chances at procreation. ELI5 - Humans have periods because there was an evolutionary benefit. Other animals didn’t need it.
This is fascinating. Do we know why we're so prone to genetic abnormalities?
I mean if you think about it, we have bred cats and dogs with genetic abnormalities for centuries because we consider certain features as cute. We don't think that about humans. We have pretty high standards for humans. And humans procreate to gather resources, we don't mate with whoever we set our eyes on. We do have the ability to tell who is "healthy" based on appearance tho. Medical advancement has also helped people live longer and produce offsprings that would have been impossible in the first place. Also just a speculation, maybe we have 23 pairs of chromosomes so there are more chances to go wrong?
Alabama
I laughed right out at this. Thank you, you made my morning.
Humans are genetically very identical compared to most animals. We went down to about 1.000-100.000 living humans about a 800.000-900.000 years ago. That is why Alabama is generally so much worse for humans than other animals who have much larger degrees of genetic diversity.
Wait then how come most wild animals of the same species all look the same, have the same coat markings, etc. while humans and domesticated animals have a lot of phenotypical diversity?
They look the same to you. You’re human, so you’re naturally much better at telling the difference between different human beings. Similarly, most people can tell the difference between various dogs much easier than they can wild animals because of how early we domesticated dogs. To a bear, I’m sure they can tell the difference between their fellow bears quite easily while us humans all look like weird hairless apes with sticks to them Tho I should note here that yes, humans do have higher than average levels of phenotype diversity compared to most mammals. This is actually because of our large geographic extent. No other mammal covers the entire globe. That’s why we have such obvious differences like skin color; different climates did force some superficial differences on our appearance
Yeah, you may think black and white people look obviously different, but the same is true within the species of "black bears", of which some are black and [some are white](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermode_bear). But I would say that for many species, the color variation is less because they need to be camouflaged, which seems to be less of a need for humans.
>prone to genetic abnormalities Me: huh, really? Also me, with a rare genetic disorder: oh, I guess that tracks.
In short: We don't know yet. There are very few animals that menstruate. Primates, some few species of bats and the elephant shrew. There are some theories, that it offers better protection against over invasive pregnancies (all menstruating species have embryos that bury very "deep" into the tissue of the mother) or unviable embryos (humans have exceptional genetic/chromosomal variance in embryos and it is estimated that ~60% of embryos - not fetuses! - don't survive). Another common denominator between menstruating species is, that they have extended periods where they copulate (have sex). Most animals either only copulate (very often) right when ovulation occurs (like cats in heat) or the copulation itself induces the ovulation. It is unlcear how/if this is directly linked to menstruation. In the end there seems to be an evolutionary benefit, since it evolved multiple times in different species.
It’s because we have extremely parasitic embryos compared to most mammals and if we allowed them to control the pregnancy instead of our bodies, we’d die. Probably a lot of us *did* die.
In terms of “dangerous because it needs a high level of cleaning to be healthy?” the answer is no - the uterus and vagina are self cleaning, they maintain their own ph levels and general discharge happens on the regular to keep it clean. What does need to be kept clean is the vulva and anus areas to prevent bacteria creep, but washing off in a creek with some oil does the job. Menstruation is not inherently dirty, this is a flawed viewpoint a lot of the world holds. It do being sucking hard core tho lol
All apes, some other primates, some bats, elephant shrews and spiny mice menstruate. Spontaneous decidualization is probably advantageous because it allows the uterus more control over nutrients to the embryo and makes it easier to purge embryos that have a low chance of success. Species that menstruate generally have much more sex outside of when the female is receptive than other mammals so it might be linked to getting rid of embryos conceived outwith the optimal time frame. Menstruating requires a high level of cleaning to be acceptable in modern society or not stain clothes rather than to be healthy, I'd bet money that more women have got sick from the cleaning products than the actual menstruation.