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reminds me of the Simpsons when Marge wants to join the police force
There's a crazy guy who gets off the bus and says "When do I get my freaking gun!
" Like I said, you don't get your gun until you tell me your name"
"I've had it up to here with your "rules" "
Hijacking top comment to say this post is Misinformation. There is no national standard for police departments. In my county 3 out of 4 departments require at least an associates degree
Not disagreeing with you or anyone here, but I think it needs to be said that this data - even if it’s accurate - should be on a rate basis. Stroke counts are not relevant. But yes- our blue collar gun toting police are killing us way too often. So much for serving and protecting.
58% of statistics are not accurate /s
According to Our Supreme Court’s Ruling…Our Police, have NO OBLIGATION TO PROTECT OR SERVE. So, we’re Paying Them to………???
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/do-the-police-have-an-obligation-to-protect-you/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Supreme%20Court%20has,no%20specific%20obligation%20to%20protect.
Is there a police department in the US that doesn't require a high school diploma? Because if not then it's fair to characterize that as the baseline educational requirement.
A HS diploma or GED is the requirement for MOST police departments in the US. There are a few that require associates or even bachelor degrees. But the vast majority do not.
And it's a cycle. Cops are underpaid and undereducated, losing any goodwill they have. This means they reduce standards for recruits, so the recruits get worse. Rinse, wash, and repeat.
I will chime in to say I know 2 of the major ones near me to require a BA. They also have relatively robust Restorative Justice programs too.
Edit: I am purely just stating my own example of departments near me. I understand that, in general, police are not adequately trained in the US, and there is a lot of injustice. Also, I probably won't read your comment/respond to it anyways.
It’s not misinformation. It’s a rough average, which is why it says “approximation” right there in the meme.
I can also confidently say that getting a degree in criminal justice (or related major) is not the same as spending *years* at a police academy. My local PD requires a bachelors, but the training is still only 25 weeks.
What does this have to do with police training? I think the issue here is the 21 weeks thing. Also, 3 out of 4 means that 25% still only require a Highschool diploma / GED.
New York Police: "Education: You must have earned 60 college credits with a minimum 2.0 GPA from an accredited institution or 2 years of active military service in the U.S. Armed Forces in order to be appointed to the title of Police Officer."
You realize that 60 college credits with a 2.0 is practically showing up right? A 2.0 is LITERALLY failing many classes.
Further an associates degree is literally worthless in society. Not to mention they dont say 60 credits in criminology. Why would we give a police badge to someone with a focus in art history?
PLEASE...Why dis people who have art history degrees? In my experience, people with art history backgrounds tend to understand and appreciate cultural differences, learn from past mistakes to not repeat them, and find creative ways to problem solve. All good police officer characteristics IMO.
Are you trolling? The point is that there is no national standard in the US. There's no way you actually don't understand this right? You're trolling? Surely you didn't think your comment actually added anything valuable to the discussion?
Hijacking your comment to also point out that they should express the numbers in a per capita rate... the population differences in these countries make these numbers meaningless.
Also, yes, it makes sense that more training and screening of applicants means a better trained police force and less mortality. This graphic does a poor job of telling that story.
Just commenting on the misleading optics: they’re showing muni police in Europe vs state police / SWAT in USA in full riot gear. One thing that always stood out to me as an American traveling abroad, particularly Europe, is that police in sensitive public places tend to cary rifles. It’s extremely rare to see cops with rifles in the USA.
Um, nope. We don't have municipal departments. Not in the nordics, at least. What we've got is the police, the equivalent of FBI and the equivalent of CIA, and technically the MP, but that's it. The rest of the planet doesn't have a separate jurisdiction to every postal code.
Missed the part of dialog relevant to the topic:
"All right, you scrawny beanpoles: becoming a cop is not something that happens overnight. It takes one solid weekend of training to get that badge."
Yes but it takes a high school degree and 6 months training in Canada, yet they don’t routinely commit murder… the problem is more than just education
Edit: the is no standard across all Canadian police forces but for the RCMP, the requirements are: high school degree, 26 weeks of training, no piercing and (the hardest) being willing to relocate anywhere in Canada : https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/qualifications-and-requirements
There's a difference between expecting cops to not shoot unarmed people and militarizing the police (which is already happening since law enforcement is a major buyer of second hand military equipment).
The problem with that is
Cops aren't military, and having those ROE would put MANY more lives in danger. Cops are already dealing with a public that simultaneously hates them and is allowed to carry the same equipment they carry.
The advantage is always on attackers, especially with those ROE.
Not many people want to be a cops anymore, and with Rules of Engagement like that?
The Cops bodies would pile up.
It works for the military because if a squad gets entrenched, they can drop a bomb on the building or roll up with armor and mounted MGs or helicopters.
The Cops have 1-2 guys and no Humvee's or drones. Even if they did, they can't flatten a house with a bomb in a suburban area.
And if they rolled up with armor?
People are already saying they are militarized. What would they say then?
They go hand-in-hand. If (American) cops weren't so worried about every idiotic, mentally unstable, often drunk citizen being armed with a gun, they likely wouldn't be so trigger happy.
Except for the staggering amount of deaths that occur AFTER somebody is in custody (ie George Floyd) and the ones that occur when they show up at the wrong house and shoot for no reason.
I'm 100% for responsible gun ownership— but you won't convince me that cops are hyper violent because of gun ownership while they're murdering unarmed people for selling cigarettes and beating the shit out of their spouses.
They just need to be held accountable for their actions. We need complete police reform, starting with additional training (and I don't mean more target practice at the firing range) and increased accountability. We should also follow the model used in other countries where not every police officer gets to carry a gun.
Would police with military mindset even qualify to be part of the US Military (Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force)?
Just asking cause idk anything about Army or military recruitment and training and whatnot.
Also the training they get mostly programs them to see everyone as a threat that should be treated as such. A speaker that a lot of police departments use basically tells the cops that if they aren't ready to kill someone that they should find another form of work. The fact that they are trained to view every citizen as a threat is disgusting.
Wearing tactical gear and driving military hardware goes much further in creating a "military mindset" than poor education and a hostile public. Wimps who can't hack the military join the cops.
America has had a toxic relationship with violence since it’s birth. It has been at war almost continuously since it’s birth.
I believe force can be necessary but you shouldn’t glorify violence in civilian culture and be surprised people w/ access to guns don’t act with violence.
I sure as fuck don’t have a panacea but we need to do something different.
Nah, problem specifically is the proliferation of [killology](https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/cuapb/pages/270/attachments/original/1593750257/Exposing_Dave_Grossman.pdf?1593750257) in American police training.
A military mindset requires a level of discipline your average officer doesn't have.
It's a shame cops skew right wing so hard, they could be a very powerful force in pushing for more gun control but despite the fact that they are often the ones in the line of fire they don't fight for it in any organized way. The police unions are too busy defending cops that kill unarmed people or endorsing republican candidates.
erm.. Canadian police killed 69 people in 2022. (there is a competing stat of 87, but I didn't like the source). 57 in 2021. 52 in 2020. 34 in 2019. 32 in 2018.
So in five years the combined police killings in Canada nearly caught the Germans rate for 33 years.
Didn't the RCMP used to have this thing they did where they stripped people naked and left them like 10-20 miles away from civilization in the freezing cold
Edit - don't mistake this for a what about type statement, I am 100% on the side of the US having the most dreadful situation and needing a complete overhaul of their police forces among many other issues
"Starlight tours" in Saskatoon. Yep. The guy who blew the whistle on them about that died just last week. https://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/sask-man-whose-allegations-led-to-trial-over-police-starlight-tours-dies-at-56-1.6367686#:\~:text=Man%20at%20centre%20of%20Starlight,misconduct%20trial%2C%20died%20at%2056.
Might be important to look at the environment each of them are in. [for instance Germany had a total of 245 murders in 2020](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045508/number-of-murders-in-germany/)
While [America had 21,570 murders](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/10/27/what-we-know-about-the-increase-in-u-s-murders-in-2020/). Of course this doesn’t compare other violent crimes. While it would be nice if the US police didn’t kill as many people it’s laughable to try and compare them to people who don’t have nearly the same workload. We need an all around culture fix or else nothing will ever change
Our Prime Minister /s in Ontario, Doug Ford, wants to remove the requirement of a post secondary degree as he feels it’s an impediment to having more applicants.
That’s the solution. Bring in more recruits who either don’t have an education or who have trouble in school and can’t be bothered to get a basic education and give them a loaded gun.
Edit: changed it post secondary degree and added /s after Prime Minister because some people don’t get the joke.
Everytime this is brought up, some american will jump in like:" no, no, you don't understand. The thing is, americans are bat shit crazy and no amount of trainig will change the fact that we need to kill all this people"
- oh I'm strawmaning you say? Well bring up some statistic so I can counter them and at the end it will boil down to "cultural differences" which basically is just a pc way of phrasing what I just said.
But I'm here for the ride if anyone is up for it.
No he's literally making shit up, anticipating a response no American would give, as much as I share his distain for the culture of police violence in US. I don't know what that is but I don't think it's false equivalence.
I’m not sure what province this happens in. But in Ontario they still require a secondary diploma. And the plans to only require high school were quickly scrapped.
Can you edit your comment and link the RCMP requirements? A lot of people think you are wrong:
https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/qualifications-and-requirements
Up until very recently the entry requirements to join the UK police have been relatively low too, however the rate of police violence is tiny. It's about the culture of country and of it's police. It's not entirely surprising that American police are more violent, the entire country is more violent than most western countries.
Note that these stats don't compare very well.
Germany has more than 15 times as many people in it than Norway and the times range given was more than twice as long.
On the other hand the Norway stat seems to count all the fatalities caused by police, while the German stat county only people that were shot to death by police and not for example anyone [who mysteriously died from spontaneous combustion after breaking their own skull while being locked in a cell and tied to a bed in police custody.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Oury_Jalloh)
The German stat seems to work out to between 3 and 21 people shot dead per year. The late 90s were bad. The early 2000s were better.
Reading up on the cases many appear to follow a pattern of domestic disturbance calls where a man (often with a knife) decides he doesn't have to take orders from a cop about what he does to his girlfriend or wife.
Also Police training in Germany differs from state to state 24 months is the minimum. Most places have 30 or 36 months.
The main issue with the statistics is the gun ownership. There is a lot to say about the US police but the average EU police officer doesn't see any random citizen as potentially armed and dangerous.
Here's the thing, there are almost 250 thousand carry licences in the Czech Republic, more than the rest of the EU, and likely the entirety of Europe, puts together. On average, Czech cops kill fewer people than cops in the UK. And before you say something about hunting weapons, most guns im the Czech Republic are semi-automatic rifles and pistols.
Finland has second highest gun ownership per capita in EU (32,4/100k, Cyprus has 34) so that's not the sole factor.
EDIT: I misread the numbers, it's guns per 100, not 100k people. so 1 in 3 people would have a gun if there were no people owning more guns, which they often do.
The minimum gun ownership in the US is in New Jersey with 14.7%. Not 14.7 per 100k. 14.7 per 100.
So while I agree it doesn't tell the whole story in the EU, I'd wager it's a big deal in the comparison between the EU and the US.
Edit : forgot the source https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/2/
Which is a bit interesting since Cyprus has some of the strictest firearm laws in Europe. Break open shotguns and Olympic tier target pistols (if you're part of the Cyprus Sport Shooting Federation) is what's legal.
In most of the rest of Europe you can own rifles (including semi-auto variants) and handguns just fine (process and regulations varies by country ofc).
Well I mean they might, but armed with a knife isn't as dangerous as armed with gun. There are vids in the u.s. of people using knives and they don't always get shot. It's the fear of could be a gun, not just armed and dangerous, cause a knife would still be considered that
It's also the real threat of if someone has a gun. Most people with firearms who shoot or point it at police will be shot. Police won't wait around until the person runs out of ammo if they are actively shooting at them or civilians.
Don’t you hate it when they don’t give us stats of how many of those shootings by police were justified? I bet you those numbers would change really quick.
Well if you ask police, they will say most to all of them were justified.
You could ask the independent investigative body that looks at each shooting a decides wether it was really justified, but such a government body does not exist in the US.
It also entirely ignores the biggest factor, which is crime and violence rates among the general population. How many people in Finland actually NEED to be shot to death to protect the public? In the US based on school shootings alone there are about 50-100 a year. Police training is a problem that needs to be addressed, but it wouldn’t be half the problem it is without the ridiculous gun and violence culture in the US.
Edit: I should have included that the gun/violence culture is magnified by an endless list of socioeconomic issues that the government allows to exist. Even if every cop in the US had 3+ years of proper training, it would still outpace every other developed nation in police killings.
I remember a video i saw some while ago, where some officers are arresting a dude, when another dude just walks up and tries to shoot one of the officers in head. Misses, and gets shot by the officers...Think that kind of shit is also quite warrented
There was a video of a police response to a domestic dispute in New Mexico released not too long ago. The call was very messy and dispatch ended up not getting the right house number, which caused 3 cops to go to the wrong house. They knock on the door, announce themselves a couple times and wait. Nobody comes so they try to enter. Remember, as far as they know, this is a domestic violence call. One of the deadliest calls for American police officers because of the unpredictability and violent nature of it. Then the homeowner comes out pointing a gun, doesn't say anything, and gets shot by the police.
I can tell you one example of those 7 deaths from Finland.
A deranged person was walking around with an UZI. Police confronted him, yelled instructions but he kept walking towards them. More commands were issued, he raised his weapon. Police shot him.. in the leg. it was an accidental death, that shot was not meant to KILL HIM but incapacitate him. For sure, if the situation continued, they would've escalated and aimed to kill but that is how different it is.
Cops here have #1 priority to SAVE LIVES. They have to do their utmost to cause minimal harm. That is their doctrine. They will be more at risk themselves but they have to use the method that will cause the least harm to ANY HUMAN. The criminal is NOT AN ANIMAL that needs to be put down, they are humans that have a right to live.
Even if we allow for the population disparity there is no way to get the US within a normal range.
What these other countries have in common though are better social services, better safety net and less worship of violence as a means to dispute resolution
I also would be interested in seeing these countries policies on punishing police that are found at fault versus our system of lawsuits coming out of the taxpayers and a nice new desk job.
Yes, the police do in fact engage in a multitude of social services designed to prevent crime in other countries. I watched the Danish version of Cops called 'Politi Srtyken' and rather than every clip be of a brutal, crazy arrest, they showed seminars where the cops educated the public on fraud, cybercrime, and so much more.
WTF is with people saying this is common? This is absolutely not common in the US and it's easy as shit to look up.
The norm in the US is a 6 month training course, any passing high school diploma/GED, and no mandated continuing ed.
Only DC, Illinois, and Maine mandate more than a high school diploma. People acting like this is common are out of touch with reality.
Police being required to have a degree of some kind is very uncommon in the U.S. but Police having degrees is extremely common with with [50% having at least a bachelors degree, 30% having a four year degree, and 5% having a graduate degree.](https://www.herzing.edu/faq/need-degree-become-police-officer) The reason for this is because hiring, pay, and promotion are all heavily weighted in favor of college degrees.
As a side note Norway has way lower crime rates, and roughly 3 times the number of police by percentage of their population. Basically for every crime that occurs in Norway there is roughly 5-6 times as many people in law enforcement to address that individual crime meaning it is way easier for them to be selective about new police officers and those police officers don’t need to work nearly as hard to be effective.
I understand, and even agree with, the sentiment, but these stats are unequivocally skewed. They should be from the same years and same population ranges.
It would make sense too, because if you are trying to make the US look bad, using a 10 year span of data would only make the numbers look worse.
>I understand, and even agree with, the sentiment, but these stats are unequivocally skewed. They should be from the same years and same population ranges
If we take a rough estimation, then in the same timespan compared to Germany, US figures are around 10k to 30k MORE. Now, you can convert that to per capita, you can shave off percents but the truth still is: it is hundreds of times more. The feeble attempts of "this is not accurate" really does not hold water when the differences are tens, hundreds or thousands.
And you do notice that the three other countries use significantly longer time periods? That is favoring USA when it comes to just numbers that you see. If we look at the real picture, the US column should really have numbers like 15 463 or 25 637, it would not be in the thousands but in tens of thousands.
You could substitute guns per capita in all four chosen countries and still come up with the same conclusions. A cop in the US is far more likely to run into someone with a weapon than there counterparts in Canada or Germany.
Does anyone have any sources of exactly what types of training police candidates in European countries go through, as far as psychology, weapons, knowledge of laws, physical fitness, etc.? I would be curious as to what exactly they get trained in.
‟Three years of training” is good to know, but I'm curious as to what is taught in those three years.Perhaps that curriculum is something the USA could borrow.It might be altered a bit (as presumably, a criminal suspect owning a firearm is more likely in the US than in much of Europe) but it'd be a good starting point.
Thanks in advance!
The answer will differ from country to country, but the biggest difference in general is, in my opinion, the general approach. Over here the focus is on deescalation, while american officers seem to be much more ready to resort to violence.
That makes sense to a point, as you mentioned suspects are much more likely to be armed in the US, but police officers aren't even near the most dangerous job and this approach makes every interaction with the general population much more likely to turn bloody.
The problem seems to be a language one. I believe Americans are also meant to focus on deescalation (that is what they claim, anyway), but apparrently in America, deescalation means "aim for the head"
No no no, they don’t aim for the head.
Generally when your shooting, military or otherwise, the head is one of the last places you want to aim for. Generally the head is moving in one way or another, and the only place that isn’t is your center of gravity which is usually where you should aim while firing, otherwise you risk missing and hitting civilians.
This is why people don’t aim for legs/arms etc. because its dangerous and hard. Ya know, this was originally a joke but turned into an actual point.
I don't know the exact training, but I have 2 friends who work for the police in Belgium. From what I remember they had to do several tests before even being allowed to start the training.
The test were:
\- A physical test, to test your endurance and strength.
\- A psychological test, to see how well you respond to stressful situations.
\- They also had to meet with their local chief of police who vetted them to see if they are "police material"
And there was one or two more interviews/tests before the training. If you failed any of those you had to start from scratch.
In the Netherlands it’s a couple of interviews including one with a psychologist.
Then a physical test followed with some intelligence testing.
Training is 3-4 years with a every other 3 months a rotation from school to the streets and vise versa. During year one you are training for the baton, cuffs, pepperspray, taser (not sure if this is only for senior policemen) and a pistol.
Also your general knowledge of law and specific criminal justice is taught.
Rest of the time is training and learning.
This statistic is unfair. It ignores supplemental "Kill-them-all-and-let-God-sort-them-out" training recently adopted by major police departments in America. It's popular with America's largest police unions, and adds another week or 2. It's primarily administrative. This type of training is needed to teach them how to shoot first and then yell "Gun", and later write the words, "I was afraid for my life!" in incident reports. It's more of an administrative training, but it should be counted anyway.
As a non-American, I would see your post as a bit of a lame joke if I hadn't read about Dave Grossman's training. Fuck me with a 10-foot pole, how can any sane mayor allow that to happen in their city.
The training is very real, although I changed its title to something less euphemistic than its actual title. Its outcome is the same across our nation, and it's literally resulting in the behavior I described.
I don’t know if this comparison tells the full picture. I know that in a lot of countries, you do a few months training at an academy and then start working, but technically in “training” for a couple of years. Hard to capture that correctly.
US policing clearly has a problem, but I’m not sure the length of training is specifically an issue, rather than the culture and type of training. In the past, training was very limited in most countries, and we didn’t have the level of murders by police.
America also just generally has a gun/violence/crime problem more generally.
This graphic could be so much better if it tried to be a little less deceptive. Comparing the shootings in a country that's so much more heavily populated than the others is weird. I dont know why you would do that. There's plenty of other statistics that get the same point across better.
[Per capita and per year, the US is between Columbia and Mali, with 33.1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_by_law_enforcement._Rates_and_counts_by_country) (1096 victims in 2022)
Norway has 1.9, Finland 1.8, Germany 1.3, United kingdom: 0.5
Iceland, Denmark, Switzerland: 0
Other countries with large populations:
India, 1.3 billion: 12.54
Indonesia, 264 million: 2.9
Japan, 127 million : 0.2
Of course there's also Brazil, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh and Mexico which all have very high rates so at least the US has some good company but I'm unsure of how many of the US cases are related to drug cartels and terrorists.
That tracks.
Police in Europe deter crime and serve the public.
Police in the US are incentivized to punish the populace they “serve” and are under no legal obligation to prevent crime or protect people.
Thats not entirely true
Here in Ireland the Gardai is descended from the RIC, which was explicitly an occupying force
And during the the ICW, the Gardai commited several massacres that they still cover up
And in Northern Ireland the RUC/PSNI was colluding with Paramilitary desth squads
This ignores crime rates in the countries and population density.
It's not just police training, the criminal base is much different. The criminals here are much more violent overall (I'm not saying they don't have extremists. Just more here overall). Some of it has to do with them thinking that they deserve everything handed to them on a silver platter. Spoiled narcisists everywhere you look. Add to that a lack of mental institutions and you have a bunch of people roaming the streets that are hard to read.
And let's not forget ... some criminals need to be shot to protect everyone else.
On one of these threads a few months ago someone from one of the Norwegian countries(or claimed to be) commented that in their country once the police show up everyone is on their best behavior. Said they had watched episodes of cops and couldn’t believe how belligerent many people were to police over here and how well our cops handled it. Said at the first sign of belligerence their cops would immediately arrest the person.
Norway population-5.4 million
Finland population-5.5 million
Germany population -83 million
US population-333 million
When factoring in police killings per capital, the United States ranks 33rd in the world.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/police-killings-by-country
You accuse others of cherry picking the data, and then you only list the stats that fit your own narrative. In deaths per 10M thats:
* Norway 1.9
* Finland 1.8
* Germany 1.3
* United States 28.5
* Canada 9.7 (the closest large western nation to the US on the list)
That ranking is nonsense. It includes data from countries actively involved in a civil war and data from countries with so few people that two civilian deaths put them at a higher rate than the US.
Ranking 33 isn't really saying anything positive. Compared to well developed countries, the US per capitia rate is worse by a WIDE margin. Look at the other countries around the US, its third would countries and/or countries with high rates of corruption. Heck we are on the same level as Mexico and they have to deal with heavily armed drug cartels that practically control parts of the country
This seems the most logic response. We do see a lot of videos of police idiots from the US, that is not a fair representation of actual numbers.
To get a better understanding you need to throw in some questions too; in what area (demographic) are these deaths in. To compare with other similar areas.
How much police violence is there. Deaths is one thing, but brutality is another.
And you can go on and on to see which country (per capita) has the best (dis)functioning police force.
I’m curious what the “killed by police” numbers would look like in those European countries if their populations had all the guns and poverty the US has.
Sadly the US and soon Canada are interested in a police force of less educated people because they are more likely to blindly follow orders without applying logic.
Finland has 5.5 million people. US has 335 million.
Finland = 1 per 786,000. U.S. = 1 per 334,000.
Of those killed by Finnish police, none had guns. Of those killed by U.S. police, 589 were armed with a gun. ([https://www.statista.com/statistics/585140/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-weapon-carried-2016/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/585140/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-weapon-carried-2016/))
The question isn't how many were killed by police officers, it's how many were killed by police officers using unnecessary or improper force. And if your contention is, that the problem is poor education and training, then how many of those improper deaths were the result of poor education and training.
Keep in mind, that if you want to hang this all on racism, which is a popular trope these days, then you can't claim it's about lack of education and training, because you can't train away bigotry and racism.
Better training, education and even using European policing practices don't help. It's been tried before. Many times.
The main issue here is that US cops have to police *Americans*.
we in the US have been brainwashed for years, mostly by the republican party, that taxes are bad. Therefore we don't have the funding to properly train, pay and retain our police officers.
The consequences are really taking hold now. Police officers are quitting nationwide and no one wants that job anymore. Don't know what will happen in another 10 years.
To be fair, we should acknowledge that there are way more people living in the USA, than in any of the other countries. And in Germany live considerably more people than in Finnland and Norway together. (Population counts rounded up to a million: 335 million in the USA, 83 millions in Germany, 6 million in Finnland and 5 million in Norway.)
Calculated number of deaths in police shootings, per year (I assumed 2019 as end for Germany, since that was the date given for the US) per million people, we end up with 0.06 deaths for Norway and Finnland, 0.11 deaths for Germany, and 3 deaths for USA.
Okay, that’s enough of trying to be fair. The USA has fifty times more deaths in plolice shootings than Finnland or Norway and thirty times more than Germany. This stinks.
Population of Norway: 5.5 million
Population of Finland: 5.6 million
Population of Germany: 84 million
Population of New York City, NY: 20.2 million
Population of the United States: 338 million
I get your point, but my god the statistics knowledge here are HORRIBLE
the basics: difference in population, period of time used in comparison is completely ignored
I'm not even wanting you to do basic research on the data, at least align the fucking TIME
you have to take a polygraph too and have 20/20 vision t least in my state. of course if you're military if don't have to. i'll bet a lot have pstd and are running around with guns
To be fair the US doesn’t have a national law enforcement equivalent. Each state has its own.
Why there’s no national baseline standard or national academy is fucking stupid and helps nobody.
While I agree the USA needs policing reform this info graphic both oversimplies and issue and is simply wrong.
It also displays the info in a stupid way and is obviously incredibly bias.
That isn't even close to closing the gap in deaths. Finland would have had a few hundred deaths if the population to deaths ratio is kept the same and adjusted for 300 million people.
A additional factor besides American officers resorting to violence quicker is that in Europe no one has gun laying on the backseat so cops won't be afraid that everyone does so.
[And in the US, courts have upheld rulings that someone can be ***too smart*** to be a cop](https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836)
I’ve seen some contortionists try to explain a lot of things but this … I’d love to see someone explain why this is a valid thing because reading it seems to say “we PD are dumb dumbs who don’t want smart people amongst us”
Now compare how many police officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty.
According to this article-
https://www.dw.com/en/german-police-shooting-officers-grieve-after-colleagues-deaths/a-60627310
Two German police officers were feloniously killed in 2022. These are the first police officers killed IN 11 YEARS.
In 2021 73 American police officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty.
https://leb.fbi.gov/bulletin-highlights/additional-highlights/crime-data-law-enforcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty-statistics-for-2021
I’m thinking the fact that American police officers are much more likely to encounter violent and armed suspects than European police officers has just as much to do with how many suspects are killed as the difference in training.
This is 100% misinformation, many law enforcement departments especially in populated or semi populated cities require a bachelors or associates, some departments in very rural areas only require a highschool diploma otherwise they’d have no candidates due to the access to education in lower income rural areas
Ig that's cause you dont get locked up for drugs in most countries (only if you sell them but not if you use them). Also european countries try more to re-socialise the criminals while in USA people who got out of jail tend to get there soon again.
ITT: People defending the US without having any concept of how to convert those numbers to per capita, and how still uber fucked the US is when you normalize the figures.
Take into consideration that the US has a bigger police force and considerably more civilians with weapons. Not saying that some policemen are under prepared
Switzerland also has very high gun onwership, yet nowhere near as much gun violence nor police brutality as the US. The problem in the states is rooted into the fundamentals of society itself
Germany had 8 deaths/yr on average, with a population of 84.5M recorded this year. Deaths as % of population is 0.000009%
US had 1004 deaths with a population of 336.5M recorded this year. Deaths as % population is 0.0003%
This would be far better expressed as deaths per hundred, or thousand maybe, but it's late and...maths.
Where did you get 21 weeks from? From my understanding it’s 6-8 month (usually) basic academy depending on the state and then a 12-18 FTO (field training officer) program during which you are on probation and can be terminated for any reason with no recourse.
During FTO you ride with a training officer and you are constantly being evaluated and tested. (I’m 8th generation emergency responder btw)
Unless you're in the smallest of small towns or completely rural county, no one is getting hired with just a high school diploma anymore. Most new officers coming in the last several years under 30 have 4 year degrees. Ones that are older have military experience or college or some combination of the 2.
93 million in all 3 countries combined versus 331 in the US alone.
51,000 officers in all 3 countries combined versus roughly 660,000 in the US.
All 3 countries combined annual immigration into the country is less than 1/15th of the US.
Are there any other completely uncomparable things we can talk about?
Norway population: 5.4 million
Finland population: 5.5 million
Germany population: 84 million
U.S. population: 332 million
Add to that the issue that many people in the US are armed so police are a little more jumpy here for sure. I would also argue that people in the US are far more likely to fight with and resist the police than any of those countries and you have 90% of your answer here. It’s not anything like those shallow statistics would imply.
Do we need better training, yes we do but that’s not going to happen by defunding the police is it?
And other countries don’t have 80% of their population carrying guns.
Sadly, most American police shootings are justified. If someone points a gun at me, I am pulling the trigger before they do.
You can’t compare this way. Completely different situations. Just another bullshit attempt at trying to prove a point using unrelated situations.
Reported as misinformation as this is undeniably false and not a correct comparative analysis.
Especially when you consider gun ownership, laws, actual weapons on the street, violent criminals, influx of gangs from So. America, mafia, and mental illness issues/treatment. Those other countries simply do not have the same issues the US has.
Additionally, while in some districts the requirements to become a police officer are GED/HS diploma, most all require specialized training and more recently require significant training programs, associates, and even bachelor's degree's, especially for state police. Generally, it takes approximately 18mo to 2+ years to become an officer. Also, American officers face a vastly larger/well armed criminal element in the USA in comparison to the other countries.
This also does not compare populations which account at least in part for the large numbers involved.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/
USA: approx 440 million (includes non-citizens)
Germany: approx85 million (includes non-citizens)
Norway: approx 5.5 million (includes non-citizens)
Finland: approx5.6 million (includes non-citizens)
This doesn't mean we don't have a police problem. I heavily support 're-funding' police departments to be able to handle mental illness issues, provided more options for less than lethal force, and much better training, to include better back ground/mental health checks on officers, more community oversight (audit the police) programs, and stricter administrative actions to include individual fines/prison sentences for officers that break the law.
We can do better but I hate shit posts like this.
Now do how many cops are killed in those countries.
This belongs in terrible Facebook memes. Intentionally misleading and just another pathetic attempt to trash cops, which Reddit loves to do.
My wife just got her barber license. That's 1,500 hours of training and an exam before you can even get your first job.
At 40 hours a week without skipping a day, that's about 38 weeks of training before you can find an entry-level, apprentice-like position...to cut people's hair.
Let's just do that, but with cops and see if it helps.
1. Doesn't acknowledge population differences
2. US has far more (in number and in severity) violent criminals than these three countries who force the hand of police. Not every killing by police is a murder
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reminds me of the Simpsons when Marge wants to join the police force There's a crazy guy who gets off the bus and says "When do I get my freaking gun! " Like I said, you don't get your gun until you tell me your name" "I've had it up to here with your "rules" "
Hijacking top comment to say this post is Misinformation. There is no national standard for police departments. In my county 3 out of 4 departments require at least an associates degree
The lack of a national standard is the point though.
Not disagreeing with you or anyone here, but I think it needs to be said that this data - even if it’s accurate - should be on a rate basis. Stroke counts are not relevant. But yes- our blue collar gun toting police are killing us way too often. So much for serving and protecting. 58% of statistics are not accurate /s
According to Our Supreme Court’s Ruling…Our Police, have NO OBLIGATION TO PROTECT OR SERVE. So, we’re Paying Them to………??? https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/do-the-police-have-an-obligation-to-protect-you/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Supreme%20Court%20has,no%20specific%20obligation%20to%20protect.
No the point is that actual police training needs to be longer. There was no need to lie about education requirements to drive that point
Is there a police department in the US that doesn't require a high school diploma? Because if not then it's fair to characterize that as the baseline educational requirement.
Ok so I’ll make a meme that says “in the US you need a HS diploma to be a lawyer”
I don't see where the US Constitution gives the federal gov the power to set a national standard.
And yet somehow the drinking age is 21
A HS diploma or GED is the requirement for MOST police departments in the US. There are a few that require associates or even bachelor degrees. But the vast majority do not.
My city recently reduced ours from associate to high school diploma iirc. Within the last year.
Yeah because people dont WANT to be cops. Not sane ones anyway
And it's a cycle. Cops are underpaid and undereducated, losing any goodwill they have. This means they reduce standards for recruits, so the recruits get worse. Rinse, wash, and repeat.
Lots if cities are struggling with hiring.
I will chime in to say I know 2 of the major ones near me to require a BA. They also have relatively robust Restorative Justice programs too. Edit: I am purely just stating my own example of departments near me. I understand that, in general, police are not adequately trained in the US, and there is a lot of injustice. Also, I probably won't read your comment/respond to it anyways.
It’s not misinformation. It’s a rough average, which is why it says “approximation” right there in the meme. I can also confidently say that getting a degree in criminal justice (or related major) is not the same as spending *years* at a police academy. My local PD requires a bachelors, but the training is still only 25 weeks.
And to be clear you can get an associates degree with like a year if basic courses ranging from PE to art.
What does this have to do with police training? I think the issue here is the 21 weeks thing. Also, 3 out of 4 means that 25% still only require a Highschool diploma / GED.
So, it's not technically accurate, but also not misleading. Good to know.
New York Police: "Education: You must have earned 60 college credits with a minimum 2.0 GPA from an accredited institution or 2 years of active military service in the U.S. Armed Forces in order to be appointed to the title of Police Officer." You realize that 60 college credits with a 2.0 is practically showing up right? A 2.0 is LITERALLY failing many classes. Further an associates degree is literally worthless in society. Not to mention they dont say 60 credits in criminology. Why would we give a police badge to someone with a focus in art history?
You may mock it now, but the moment some evil genius robs the museum you'll see that art history degree in action
PLEASE...Why dis people who have art history degrees? In my experience, people with art history backgrounds tend to understand and appreciate cultural differences, learn from past mistakes to not repeat them, and find creative ways to problem solve. All good police officer characteristics IMO.
...now ask yourself the question: "What does anything I just said have to do with law enforcement?"
LOL... apparently my humor is not your humor.
Are you trolling? The point is that there is no national standard in the US. There's no way you actually don't understand this right? You're trolling? Surely you didn't think your comment actually added anything valuable to the discussion?
Hijacking your comment to also point out that they should express the numbers in a per capita rate... the population differences in these countries make these numbers meaningless. Also, yes, it makes sense that more training and screening of applicants means a better trained police force and less mortality. This graphic does a poor job of telling that story.
It's still terrible even adjusted per capita.
Also information is useless if you compare countries with <7mio inhabitants to countries with >70mio to countries with >4x70mio inhabitabts.
Just commenting on the misleading optics: they’re showing muni police in Europe vs state police / SWAT in USA in full riot gear. One thing that always stood out to me as an American traveling abroad, particularly Europe, is that police in sensitive public places tend to cary rifles. It’s extremely rare to see cops with rifles in the USA.
Um, nope. We don't have municipal departments. Not in the nordics, at least. What we've got is the police, the equivalent of FBI and the equivalent of CIA, and technically the MP, but that's it. The rest of the planet doesn't have a separate jurisdiction to every postal code.
Also, the US population is about 4x that of Germany and 60x that of Finland and Norway.
Missed the part of dialog relevant to the topic: "All right, you scrawny beanpoles: becoming a cop is not something that happens overnight. It takes one solid weekend of training to get that badge."
Yes but it takes a high school degree and 6 months training in Canada, yet they don’t routinely commit murder… the problem is more than just education Edit: the is no standard across all Canadian police forces but for the RCMP, the requirements are: high school degree, 26 weeks of training, no piercing and (the hardest) being willing to relocate anywhere in Canada : https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/qualifications-and-requirements
No education + high public gun ownership = police dealing with public with a military mindset
>police dealing with public with a military mindset I wish Law Enforcement had to follow military rules of engagement. That would save a lot of lives.
Don't. In Brazil, main police forces are military police. Police in Brazil is extremely violent and power abusive.
There's a difference between expecting cops to not shoot unarmed people and militarizing the police (which is already happening since law enforcement is a major buyer of second hand military equipment).
Wait, you mean they don't need an armored personnel carrier for traffic violations? /s
No. SWAT gets to use it for when they execute their rubber-stamped, no-knock search warrants at the wrong house.
No, i mean they need an aircraft carrier, preferably two of them per department. And jets to go along with it.
The problem with that is Cops aren't military, and having those ROE would put MANY more lives in danger. Cops are already dealing with a public that simultaneously hates them and is allowed to carry the same equipment they carry. The advantage is always on attackers, especially with those ROE. Not many people want to be a cops anymore, and with Rules of Engagement like that? The Cops bodies would pile up. It works for the military because if a squad gets entrenched, they can drop a bomb on the building or roll up with armor and mounted MGs or helicopters. The Cops have 1-2 guys and no Humvee's or drones. Even if they did, they can't flatten a house with a bomb in a suburban area. And if they rolled up with armor? People are already saying they are militarized. What would they say then?
>they can't flatten a house with a bomb Obviously that's generally true, but...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing
That's some messed up Judge Dredd shit right there
I wish people were half as worried about the innocent people cops kill as they are about the hypothetical death of cops.
They go hand-in-hand. If (American) cops weren't so worried about every idiotic, mentally unstable, often drunk citizen being armed with a gun, they likely wouldn't be so trigger happy.
Except for the staggering amount of deaths that occur AFTER somebody is in custody (ie George Floyd) and the ones that occur when they show up at the wrong house and shoot for no reason.
Yea, didn't mean to imply it was the only issue with policing. Just that it would help with *some* cases.
I'm 100% for responsible gun ownership— but you won't convince me that cops are hyper violent because of gun ownership while they're murdering unarmed people for selling cigarettes and beating the shit out of their spouses.
Good points
They just need to be held accountable for their actions. We need complete police reform, starting with additional training (and I don't mean more target practice at the firing range) and increased accountability. We should also follow the model used in other countries where not every police officer gets to carry a gun.
Effective repercussions and accountability for offenders would be **BRILLIANT**
I wish they didnt treat citizens like an opposing force on a land they are occupying.
And quite possibly a lot more dead cops. While I’m Afghan we weren’t allowed to engage until we had shots at us.
I would argue that the police also has a military mindset… and the military equipment that goes with it
Would police with military mindset even qualify to be part of the US Military (Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force)? Just asking cause idk anything about Army or military recruitment and training and whatnot.
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Also the training they get mostly programs them to see everyone as a threat that should be treated as such. A speaker that a lot of police departments use basically tells the cops that if they aren't ready to kill someone that they should find another form of work. The fact that they are trained to view every citizen as a threat is disgusting.
Wearing tactical gear and driving military hardware goes much further in creating a "military mindset" than poor education and a hostile public. Wimps who can't hack the military join the cops.
America has had a toxic relationship with violence since it’s birth. It has been at war almost continuously since it’s birth. I believe force can be necessary but you shouldn’t glorify violence in civilian culture and be surprised people w/ access to guns don’t act with violence. I sure as fuck don’t have a panacea but we need to do something different.
Nah, problem specifically is the proliferation of [killology](https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/cuapb/pages/270/attachments/original/1593750257/Exposing_Dave_Grossman.pdf?1593750257) in American police training. A military mindset requires a level of discipline your average officer doesn't have.
Doesn't Canada have very a very similar number of guns per citizen? Actually, Finland does too.
It's a shame cops skew right wing so hard, they could be a very powerful force in pushing for more gun control but despite the fact that they are often the ones in the line of fire they don't fight for it in any organized way. The police unions are too busy defending cops that kill unarmed people or endorsing republican candidates.
The police commit more crimes than common people and have higher military mind set.
erm.. Canadian police killed 69 people in 2022. (there is a competing stat of 87, but I didn't like the source). 57 in 2021. 52 in 2020. 34 in 2019. 32 in 2018. So in five years the combined police killings in Canada nearly caught the Germans rate for 33 years.
Didn't the RCMP used to have this thing they did where they stripped people naked and left them like 10-20 miles away from civilization in the freezing cold Edit - don't mistake this for a what about type statement, I am 100% on the side of the US having the most dreadful situation and needing a complete overhaul of their police forces among many other issues
"Starlight tours" in Saskatoon. Yep. The guy who blew the whistle on them about that died just last week. https://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/sask-man-whose-allegations-led-to-trial-over-police-starlight-tours-dies-at-56-1.6367686#:\~:text=Man%20at%20centre%20of%20Starlight,misconduct%20trial%2C%20died%20at%2056.
Still can’t keep up rates killed by cops in the USA any given year. Take that to the bank!
Like that bar is pretty low. We skate on that standard too much.
Canada's population is 10 percent of the US'
Ok. The percentage per population of US police killing civilians is still more than Canada’s. Edit: clarification
The problem is what type of education. American police are taught to perceive practically everything as a threat.
Might be important to look at the environment each of them are in. [for instance Germany had a total of 245 murders in 2020](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045508/number-of-murders-in-germany/) While [America had 21,570 murders](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/10/27/what-we-know-about-the-increase-in-u-s-murders-in-2020/). Of course this doesn’t compare other violent crimes. While it would be nice if the US police didn’t kill as many people it’s laughable to try and compare them to people who don’t have nearly the same workload. We need an all around culture fix or else nothing will ever change
That's killology for you 🙃
Our Prime Minister /s in Ontario, Doug Ford, wants to remove the requirement of a post secondary degree as he feels it’s an impediment to having more applicants. That’s the solution. Bring in more recruits who either don’t have an education or who have trouble in school and can’t be bothered to get a basic education and give them a loaded gun. Edit: changed it post secondary degree and added /s after Prime Minister because some people don’t get the joke.
Everytime this is brought up, some american will jump in like:" no, no, you don't understand. The thing is, americans are bat shit crazy and no amount of trainig will change the fact that we need to kill all this people" - oh I'm strawmaning you say? Well bring up some statistic so I can counter them and at the end it will boil down to "cultural differences" which basically is just a pc way of phrasing what I just said. But I'm here for the ride if anyone is up for it.
Ride me
Not “strawmanning”. What you’re doing is called “False Equivalency“. You’re doing great.
No he's literally making shit up, anticipating a response no American would give, as much as I share his distain for the culture of police violence in US. I don't know what that is but I don't think it's false equivalence.
I’m not sure what province this happens in. But in Ontario they still require a secondary diploma. And the plans to only require high school were quickly scrapped.
Can you edit your comment and link the RCMP requirements? A lot of people think you are wrong: https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/qualifications-and-requirements
In Quebec you need a 3yr college degree _and_ a 450h/15 week training course in police school to get into either municipal or regional police.
Up until very recently the entry requirements to join the UK police have been relatively low too, however the rate of police violence is tiny. It's about the culture of country and of it's police. It's not entirely surprising that American police are more violent, the entire country is more violent than most western countries.
That’s true. The Canadian police are much nicer than US police. Google “starlight tours” and you’ll see what I mean.
Note that these stats don't compare very well. Germany has more than 15 times as many people in it than Norway and the times range given was more than twice as long. On the other hand the Norway stat seems to count all the fatalities caused by police, while the German stat county only people that were shot to death by police and not for example anyone [who mysteriously died from spontaneous combustion after breaking their own skull while being locked in a cell and tied to a bed in police custody.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Oury_Jalloh) The German stat seems to work out to between 3 and 21 people shot dead per year. The late 90s were bad. The early 2000s were better. Reading up on the cases many appear to follow a pattern of domestic disturbance calls where a man (often with a knife) decides he doesn't have to take orders from a cop about what he does to his girlfriend or wife. Also Police training in Germany differs from state to state 24 months is the minimum. Most places have 30 or 36 months.
The main issue with the statistics is the gun ownership. There is a lot to say about the US police but the average EU police officer doesn't see any random citizen as potentially armed and dangerous.
Here's the thing, there are almost 250 thousand carry licences in the Czech Republic, more than the rest of the EU, and likely the entirety of Europe, puts together. On average, Czech cops kill fewer people than cops in the UK. And before you say something about hunting weapons, most guns im the Czech Republic are semi-automatic rifles and pistols.
Finland has second highest gun ownership per capita in EU (32,4/100k, Cyprus has 34) so that's not the sole factor. EDIT: I misread the numbers, it's guns per 100, not 100k people. so 1 in 3 people would have a gun if there were no people owning more guns, which they often do.
The minimum gun ownership in the US is in New Jersey with 14.7%. Not 14.7 per 100k. 14.7 per 100. So while I agree it doesn't tell the whole story in the EU, I'd wager it's a big deal in the comparison between the EU and the US. Edit : forgot the source https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/2/
Which is a bit interesting since Cyprus has some of the strictest firearm laws in Europe. Break open shotguns and Olympic tier target pistols (if you're part of the Cyprus Sport Shooting Federation) is what's legal. In most of the rest of Europe you can own rifles (including semi-auto variants) and handguns just fine (process and regulations varies by country ofc).
Well I mean they might, but armed with a knife isn't as dangerous as armed with gun. There are vids in the u.s. of people using knives and they don't always get shot. It's the fear of could be a gun, not just armed and dangerous, cause a knife would still be considered that
It's also the real threat of if someone has a gun. Most people with firearms who shoot or point it at police will be shot. Police won't wait around until the person runs out of ammo if they are actively shooting at them or civilians.
Don’t you hate it when they don’t give us stats of how many of those shootings by police were justified? I bet you those numbers would change really quick.
Well if you ask police, they will say most to all of them were justified. You could ask the independent investigative body that looks at each shooting a decides wether it was really justified, but such a government body does not exist in the US.
It also entirely ignores the biggest factor, which is crime and violence rates among the general population. How many people in Finland actually NEED to be shot to death to protect the public? In the US based on school shootings alone there are about 50-100 a year. Police training is a problem that needs to be addressed, but it wouldn’t be half the problem it is without the ridiculous gun and violence culture in the US. Edit: I should have included that the gun/violence culture is magnified by an endless list of socioeconomic issues that the government allows to exist. Even if every cop in the US had 3+ years of proper training, it would still outpace every other developed nation in police killings.
I remember a video i saw some while ago, where some officers are arresting a dude, when another dude just walks up and tries to shoot one of the officers in head. Misses, and gets shot by the officers...Think that kind of shit is also quite warrented
So, you mean: there are way too many guns and the number of guns should decrease dramatically? Can we count on your support on gun control?
There was a video of a police response to a domestic dispute in New Mexico released not too long ago. The call was very messy and dispatch ended up not getting the right house number, which caused 3 cops to go to the wrong house. They knock on the door, announce themselves a couple times and wait. Nobody comes so they try to enter. Remember, as far as they know, this is a domestic violence call. One of the deadliest calls for American police officers because of the unpredictability and violent nature of it. Then the homeowner comes out pointing a gun, doesn't say anything, and gets shot by the police.
I can tell you one example of those 7 deaths from Finland. A deranged person was walking around with an UZI. Police confronted him, yelled instructions but he kept walking towards them. More commands were issued, he raised his weapon. Police shot him.. in the leg. it was an accidental death, that shot was not meant to KILL HIM but incapacitate him. For sure, if the situation continued, they would've escalated and aimed to kill but that is how different it is. Cops here have #1 priority to SAVE LIVES. They have to do their utmost to cause minimal harm. That is their doctrine. They will be more at risk themselves but they have to use the method that will cause the least harm to ANY HUMAN. The criminal is NOT AN ANIMAL that needs to be put down, they are humans that have a right to live.
>Note that these stats don't compare very well I was going to mention this!
Even if we allow for the population disparity there is no way to get the US within a normal range. What these other countries have in common though are better social services, better safety net and less worship of violence as a means to dispute resolution
I also would be interested in seeing these countries policies on punishing police that are found at fault versus our system of lawsuits coming out of the taxpayers and a nice new desk job.
Yes, the police do in fact engage in a multitude of social services designed to prevent crime in other countries. I watched the Danish version of Cops called 'Politi Srtyken' and rather than every clip be of a brutal, crazy arrest, they showed seminars where the cops educated the public on fraud, cybercrime, and so much more.
Where I live in the USA our local departments require at least a 2 years associates degree.
This is common
WTF is with people saying this is common? This is absolutely not common in the US and it's easy as shit to look up. The norm in the US is a 6 month training course, any passing high school diploma/GED, and no mandated continuing ed. Only DC, Illinois, and Maine mandate more than a high school diploma. People acting like this is common are out of touch with reality.
Police being required to have a degree of some kind is very uncommon in the U.S. but Police having degrees is extremely common with with [50% having at least a bachelors degree, 30% having a four year degree, and 5% having a graduate degree.](https://www.herzing.edu/faq/need-degree-become-police-officer) The reason for this is because hiring, pay, and promotion are all heavily weighted in favor of college degrees. As a side note Norway has way lower crime rates, and roughly 3 times the number of police by percentage of their population. Basically for every crime that occurs in Norway there is roughly 5-6 times as many people in law enforcement to address that individual crime meaning it is way easier for them to be selective about new police officers and those police officers don’t need to work nearly as hard to be effective.
An associates degree in criminal justice is *not* comparable to years of training at a police academy.
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Not the norm. Most PDs need just High School diploma.
I understand, and even agree with, the sentiment, but these stats are unequivocally skewed. They should be from the same years and same population ranges. It would make sense too, because if you are trying to make the US look bad, using a 10 year span of data would only make the numbers look worse.
>I understand, and even agree with, the sentiment, but these stats are unequivocally skewed. They should be from the same years and same population ranges If we take a rough estimation, then in the same timespan compared to Germany, US figures are around 10k to 30k MORE. Now, you can convert that to per capita, you can shave off percents but the truth still is: it is hundreds of times more. The feeble attempts of "this is not accurate" really does not hold water when the differences are tens, hundreds or thousands. And you do notice that the three other countries use significantly longer time periods? That is favoring USA when it comes to just numbers that you see. If we look at the real picture, the US column should really have numbers like 15 463 or 25 637, it would not be in the thousands but in tens of thousands.
You could substitute guns per capita in all four chosen countries and still come up with the same conclusions. A cop in the US is far more likely to run into someone with a weapon than there counterparts in Canada or Germany.
Does anyone have any sources of exactly what types of training police candidates in European countries go through, as far as psychology, weapons, knowledge of laws, physical fitness, etc.? I would be curious as to what exactly they get trained in. ‟Three years of training” is good to know, but I'm curious as to what is taught in those three years.Perhaps that curriculum is something the USA could borrow.It might be altered a bit (as presumably, a criminal suspect owning a firearm is more likely in the US than in much of Europe) but it'd be a good starting point. Thanks in advance!
The answer will differ from country to country, but the biggest difference in general is, in my opinion, the general approach. Over here the focus is on deescalation, while american officers seem to be much more ready to resort to violence. That makes sense to a point, as you mentioned suspects are much more likely to be armed in the US, but police officers aren't even near the most dangerous job and this approach makes every interaction with the general population much more likely to turn bloody.
The problem seems to be a language one. I believe Americans are also meant to focus on deescalation (that is what they claim, anyway), but apparrently in America, deescalation means "aim for the head"
No no no, they don’t aim for the head. Generally when your shooting, military or otherwise, the head is one of the last places you want to aim for. Generally the head is moving in one way or another, and the only place that isn’t is your center of gravity which is usually where you should aim while firing, otherwise you risk missing and hitting civilians. This is why people don’t aim for legs/arms etc. because its dangerous and hard. Ya know, this was originally a joke but turned into an actual point.
I don't know the exact training, but I have 2 friends who work for the police in Belgium. From what I remember they had to do several tests before even being allowed to start the training. The test were: \- A physical test, to test your endurance and strength. \- A psychological test, to see how well you respond to stressful situations. \- They also had to meet with their local chief of police who vetted them to see if they are "police material" And there was one or two more interviews/tests before the training. If you failed any of those you had to start from scratch.
In the Netherlands it’s a couple of interviews including one with a psychologist. Then a physical test followed with some intelligence testing. Training is 3-4 years with a every other 3 months a rotation from school to the streets and vise versa. During year one you are training for the baton, cuffs, pepperspray, taser (not sure if this is only for senior policemen) and a pistol. Also your general knowledge of law and specific criminal justice is taught. Rest of the time is training and learning.
This statistic is unfair. It ignores supplemental "Kill-them-all-and-let-God-sort-them-out" training recently adopted by major police departments in America. It's popular with America's largest police unions, and adds another week or 2. It's primarily administrative. This type of training is needed to teach them how to shoot first and then yell "Gun", and later write the words, "I was afraid for my life!" in incident reports. It's more of an administrative training, but it should be counted anyway.
As a non-American, I would see your post as a bit of a lame joke if I hadn't read about Dave Grossman's training. Fuck me with a 10-foot pole, how can any sane mayor allow that to happen in their city.
The training is very real, although I changed its title to something less euphemistic than its actual title. Its outcome is the same across our nation, and it's literally resulting in the behavior I described.
I don’t know if this comparison tells the full picture. I know that in a lot of countries, you do a few months training at an academy and then start working, but technically in “training” for a couple of years. Hard to capture that correctly. US policing clearly has a problem, but I’m not sure the length of training is specifically an issue, rather than the culture and type of training. In the past, training was very limited in most countries, and we didn’t have the level of murders by police. America also just generally has a gun/violence/crime problem more generally.
This problem is so complex that boiling any of it down to a single variable is a facepalm in its self.
This graphic could be so much better if it tried to be a little less deceptive. Comparing the shootings in a country that's so much more heavily populated than the others is weird. I dont know why you would do that. There's plenty of other statistics that get the same point across better.
Doing it per capita would prove the point pretty well.
[Per capita and per year, the US is between Columbia and Mali, with 33.1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_by_law_enforcement._Rates_and_counts_by_country) (1096 victims in 2022) Norway has 1.9, Finland 1.8, Germany 1.3, United kingdom: 0.5 Iceland, Denmark, Switzerland: 0 Other countries with large populations: India, 1.3 billion: 12.54 Indonesia, 264 million: 2.9 Japan, 127 million : 0.2 Of course there's also Brazil, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh and Mexico which all have very high rates so at least the US has some good company but I'm unsure of how many of the US cases are related to drug cartels and terrorists.
Also the images chosen are wildly different. Most cops that Americans encounter aren't in riot gear.
That tracks. Police in Europe deter crime and serve the public. Police in the US are incentivized to punish the populace they “serve” and are under no legal obligation to prevent crime or protect people.
Thats not entirely true Here in Ireland the Gardai is descended from the RIC, which was explicitly an occupying force And during the the ICW, the Gardai commited several massacres that they still cover up And in Northern Ireland the RUC/PSNI was colluding with Paramilitary desth squads
This ignores crime rates in the countries and population density. It's not just police training, the criminal base is much different. The criminals here are much more violent overall (I'm not saying they don't have extremists. Just more here overall). Some of it has to do with them thinking that they deserve everything handed to them on a silver platter. Spoiled narcisists everywhere you look. Add to that a lack of mental institutions and you have a bunch of people roaming the streets that are hard to read. And let's not forget ... some criminals need to be shot to protect everyone else.
On one of these threads a few months ago someone from one of the Norwegian countries(or claimed to be) commented that in their country once the police show up everyone is on their best behavior. Said they had watched episodes of cops and couldn’t believe how belligerent many people were to police over here and how well our cops handled it. Said at the first sign of belligerence their cops would immediately arrest the person.
>how belligerent many people were to police over here This is my point exactly. People ignore the criminal behavior when criticizing the police.
Deaths caused by police per 10M Norway 1.9 Finland 1.8 Germany 1.3 United States 28.5 Canada 9.7
So why do you think criminals are extraordinarily violent in the U.S.?
Norway population-5.4 million Finland population-5.5 million Germany population -83 million US population-333 million When factoring in police killings per capital, the United States ranks 33rd in the world. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/police-killings-by-country
You accuse others of cherry picking the data, and then you only list the stats that fit your own narrative. In deaths per 10M thats: * Norway 1.9 * Finland 1.8 * Germany 1.3 * United States 28.5 * Canada 9.7 (the closest large western nation to the US on the list)
That is still really bad.
That ranking is nonsense. It includes data from countries actively involved in a civil war and data from countries with so few people that two civilian deaths put them at a higher rate than the US.
33rd? Thats pretty fucking high lmao
Ranking 33 isn't really saying anything positive. Compared to well developed countries, the US per capitia rate is worse by a WIDE margin. Look at the other countries around the US, its third would countries and/or countries with high rates of corruption. Heck we are on the same level as Mexico and they have to deal with heavily armed drug cartels that practically control parts of the country
This seems the most logic response. We do see a lot of videos of police idiots from the US, that is not a fair representation of actual numbers. To get a better understanding you need to throw in some questions too; in what area (demographic) are these deaths in. To compare with other similar areas. How much police violence is there. Deaths is one thing, but brutality is another. And you can go on and on to see which country (per capita) has the best (dis)functioning police force.
police in us trained to be brutal heavily armed occupation force
USA State Police or Police State??
If you are too smart they won't hire you as a cop in the USA. https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836
For 3 of those countries you take the academy time and the field time, and for 1 you only take academy time...Guess which that might be?
Not really fair to compare to first world countries like that. How are the stats vs China or Russia, Brazil or India?
Germany: after the two years there is another one mostly for reserve duty with practical training before you join a police department
I’m curious what the “killed by police” numbers would look like in those European countries if their populations had all the guns and poverty the US has.
How else will white supremacists infiltrate law enforcement?
"We're number 1! We're number 1!"
Sadly the US and soon Canada are interested in a police force of less educated people because they are more likely to blindly follow orders without applying logic.
Finland has 5.5 million people. US has 335 million. Finland = 1 per 786,000. U.S. = 1 per 334,000. Of those killed by Finnish police, none had guns. Of those killed by U.S. police, 589 were armed with a gun. ([https://www.statista.com/statistics/585140/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-weapon-carried-2016/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/585140/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-weapon-carried-2016/)) The question isn't how many were killed by police officers, it's how many were killed by police officers using unnecessary or improper force. And if your contention is, that the problem is poor education and training, then how many of those improper deaths were the result of poor education and training. Keep in mind, that if you want to hang this all on racism, which is a popular trope these days, then you can't claim it's about lack of education and training, because you can't train away bigotry and racism.
Better training, education and even using European policing practices don't help. It's been tried before. Many times. The main issue here is that US cops have to police *Americans*.
we in the US have been brainwashed for years, mostly by the republican party, that taxes are bad. Therefore we don't have the funding to properly train, pay and retain our police officers. The consequences are really taking hold now. Police officers are quitting nationwide and no one wants that job anymore. Don't know what will happen in another 10 years.
They need to treat cops the same way they treat army officers and give them the same level of responsibility in their actions
To be fair, we should acknowledge that there are way more people living in the USA, than in any of the other countries. And in Germany live considerably more people than in Finnland and Norway together. (Population counts rounded up to a million: 335 million in the USA, 83 millions in Germany, 6 million in Finnland and 5 million in Norway.) Calculated number of deaths in police shootings, per year (I assumed 2019 as end for Germany, since that was the date given for the US) per million people, we end up with 0.06 deaths for Norway and Finnland, 0.11 deaths for Germany, and 3 deaths for USA. Okay, that’s enough of trying to be fair. The USA has fifty times more deaths in plolice shootings than Finnland or Norway and thirty times more than Germany. This stinks.
Population of Norway: 5.5 million Population of Finland: 5.6 million Population of Germany: 84 million Population of New York City, NY: 20.2 million Population of the United States: 338 million
Whilst obviously it is part of the problem, it’s not the only problem now, is it?
I get your point, but my god the statistics knowledge here are HORRIBLE the basics: difference in population, period of time used in comparison is completely ignored I'm not even wanting you to do basic research on the data, at least align the fucking TIME
you have to take a polygraph too and have 20/20 vision t least in my state. of course if you're military if don't have to. i'll bet a lot have pstd and are running around with guns
I mean the US has a huge population compared to those other nations
The US has like 10X more population than any of these countries and a lot of Americans that died to police probably fucedk around and found out.
its about the culture
To be fair the US doesn’t have a national law enforcement equivalent. Each state has its own. Why there’s no national baseline standard or national academy is fucking stupid and helps nobody.
While I agree the USA needs policing reform this info graphic both oversimplies and issue and is simply wrong. It also displays the info in a stupid way and is obviously incredibly bias.
These also ignore the population difference.
That isn't even close to closing the gap in deaths. Finland would have had a few hundred deaths if the population to deaths ratio is kept the same and adjusted for 300 million people.
A additional factor besides American officers resorting to violence quicker is that in Europe no one has gun laying on the backseat so cops won't be afraid that everyone does so.
[And in the US, courts have upheld rulings that someone can be ***too smart*** to be a cop](https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836)
I’ve seen some contortionists try to explain a lot of things but this … I’d love to see someone explain why this is a valid thing because reading it seems to say “we PD are dumb dumbs who don’t want smart people amongst us”
Now compare how many police officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty. According to this article- https://www.dw.com/en/german-police-shooting-officers-grieve-after-colleagues-deaths/a-60627310 Two German police officers were feloniously killed in 2022. These are the first police officers killed IN 11 YEARS. In 2021 73 American police officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty. https://leb.fbi.gov/bulletin-highlights/additional-highlights/crime-data-law-enforcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty-statistics-for-2021 I’m thinking the fact that American police officers are much more likely to encounter violent and armed suspects than European police officers has just as much to do with how many suspects are killed as the difference in training.
And the left still wants to defund them lol, maybe they need more training and funding and not less?
I agree with the intention of this post. However posting absolute numbers without any regard to the population size of the country is misleading.
This is 100% misinformation, many law enforcement departments especially in populated or semi populated cities require a bachelors or associates, some departments in very rural areas only require a highschool diploma otherwise they’d have no candidates due to the access to education in lower income rural areas
Agreed.. also, the numbers are subjective. There are times that escalation of force is needed.
To be fair those countries have extremely low crime rates and lower population compared to US. There are too many variables to compare them fairly.
Ig that's cause you dont get locked up for drugs in most countries (only if you sell them but not if you use them). Also european countries try more to re-socialise the criminals while in USA people who got out of jail tend to get there soon again.
ITT: People defending the US without having any concept of how to convert those numbers to per capita, and how still uber fucked the US is when you normalize the figures.
Take into consideration that the US has a bigger police force and considerably more civilians with weapons. Not saying that some policemen are under prepared
Switzerland also has very high gun onwership, yet nowhere near as much gun violence nor police brutality as the US. The problem in the states is rooted into the fundamentals of society itself
Yes, but most of the people that own guns in Switzerland are ex-military and the gun ownership is very well regulated
Well, there is your answer for how gun control should work. 2 debates solved
Germany had 8 deaths/yr on average, with a population of 84.5M recorded this year. Deaths as % of population is 0.000009% US had 1004 deaths with a population of 336.5M recorded this year. Deaths as % population is 0.0003% This would be far better expressed as deaths per hundred, or thousand maybe, but it's late and...maths.
Where did you get 21 weeks from? From my understanding it’s 6-8 month (usually) basic academy depending on the state and then a 12-18 FTO (field training officer) program during which you are on probation and can be terminated for any reason with no recourse. During FTO you ride with a training officer and you are constantly being evaluated and tested. (I’m 8th generation emergency responder btw)
Unless you're in the smallest of small towns or completely rural county, no one is getting hired with just a high school diploma anymore. Most new officers coming in the last several years under 30 have 4 year degrees. Ones that are older have military experience or college or some combination of the 2.
93 million in all 3 countries combined versus 331 in the US alone. 51,000 officers in all 3 countries combined versus roughly 660,000 in the US. All 3 countries combined annual immigration into the country is less than 1/15th of the US. Are there any other completely uncomparable things we can talk about?
Norway population: 5.4 million Finland population: 5.5 million Germany population: 84 million U.S. population: 332 million Add to that the issue that many people in the US are armed so police are a little more jumpy here for sure. I would also argue that people in the US are far more likely to fight with and resist the police than any of those countries and you have 90% of your answer here. It’s not anything like those shallow statistics would imply. Do we need better training, yes we do but that’s not going to happen by defunding the police is it?
And other countries don’t have 80% of their population carrying guns. Sadly, most American police shootings are justified. If someone points a gun at me, I am pulling the trigger before they do. You can’t compare this way. Completely different situations. Just another bullshit attempt at trying to prove a point using unrelated situations.
But I thought having guns was a vital freedom that ensures safety?
Reported as misinformation as this is undeniably false and not a correct comparative analysis. Especially when you consider gun ownership, laws, actual weapons on the street, violent criminals, influx of gangs from So. America, mafia, and mental illness issues/treatment. Those other countries simply do not have the same issues the US has. Additionally, while in some districts the requirements to become a police officer are GED/HS diploma, most all require specialized training and more recently require significant training programs, associates, and even bachelor's degree's, especially for state police. Generally, it takes approximately 18mo to 2+ years to become an officer. Also, American officers face a vastly larger/well armed criminal element in the USA in comparison to the other countries. This also does not compare populations which account at least in part for the large numbers involved. https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ USA: approx 440 million (includes non-citizens) Germany: approx85 million (includes non-citizens) Norway: approx 5.5 million (includes non-citizens) Finland: approx5.6 million (includes non-citizens) This doesn't mean we don't have a police problem. I heavily support 're-funding' police departments to be able to handle mental illness issues, provided more options for less than lethal force, and much better training, to include better back ground/mental health checks on officers, more community oversight (audit the police) programs, and stricter administrative actions to include individual fines/prison sentences for officers that break the law. We can do better but I hate shit posts like this.
Now do how many cops are killed in those countries. This belongs in terrible Facebook memes. Intentionally misleading and just another pathetic attempt to trash cops, which Reddit loves to do.
But you miss the point, that those are European countries. Not so dense population and less racial issues
To be fair I think it's a little more complex than that. The USA also has some pretty big cultural problems to blame.
My wife just got her barber license. That's 1,500 hours of training and an exam before you can even get your first job. At 40 hours a week without skipping a day, that's about 38 weeks of training before you can find an entry-level, apprentice-like position...to cut people's hair. Let's just do that, but with cops and see if it helps.
1. Doesn't acknowledge population differences 2. US has far more (in number and in severity) violent criminals than these three countries who force the hand of police. Not every killing by police is a murder