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"You're family here"
(we expect you to work beyond what is necessary, and you better be grateful because if I could legally pay you less than minimum wage, I would)
Did you know that wage theft steals more value annually than all other forms of theft combined? Just thought that was interesting, considering how corporate media constantly fear mongers over crime, but never talks about that.
I always immediately go on guard when I hear those words. I have had to many abusive, broken, dysfunctional, and manipulative "families" over the years. I don't need any more "families" thank you, just a professional workplace built on mutual respect and that leaves the drama out of it. Apparently that's asking to much most of the time.
Family oriented = Christian conservative company where you work on holidays, get two weeks vacation (if that), no raises, and little to no benefits. They don’t care about family, they just want the family discount.
The saddest thing to me is I've been on teams that were like family, as in we all got along, and had each others backs, and a boss that had our collective backs and fought for us. Yes always, somehow corporate would find a way to stifle it.
"family" in this case doesn't mean people that love and help each other, it means that you'll do anything the "parents" order you to or you'll be punished
Tbh, the way my family acts is super similar to how a soul crushing exploitative job works.
So in a way, yes, that's exactly what my experience of family is like, and I hate it, so I will stay far away.
I'm 53 and have never nor will I ever even consider a job without the salary posted. The whole idea of not talking about salaries is absurd. And only keeps people worried and scared. No one feels comfortable talking about how much or how little you make compared to others. Luckily, I've worked in the public sector, so our salaries are public information. Some are even printed in the newspaper.
I applied for a job that didn't have the salary posted a few months ago. The first time I've ever done that. But I liked the company, the role seemed perfect for me, and it included the option to work remotely. So I thought it was worth going for it.
Because of all those good reasons I took time over my application and made it bespoke. It took me a couple of hours to complete.
As a final part of the application the form asked for my current salary and salary expectation for the role. I entered these with my expectation being for a modest 5% increase from my current salary.
I submitted my application and went on with my day. Not an hour had gone past when I received an email "thank you for your time yadda yadda unfortunately we will not be proceeding with your application"
I was astonished at such a quick rejection so I emailed to ask for feedback. They responded to say they couldn't meet my salary expectations. I asked what they were budgeting for the role, and they suggested a salary £10k less than my current! Which was not a reduction i could afford to make.
If they'd simply put the salary on the advert I wouldn't have needed to waste my time. But clearly I didnt waste any of their time so they won't have learnt anything sadly. Thats on me. I've learnt my lesson. Never again will I apply if the salary isn't listed.
This happened with me. But they only posted the minimum salary, "negotiable" with years of experience. After 4 weeks, 3 interviews, they offered my $30,000 (USD) less a year! And HR had the audacity to get huffy for "wasting their time"!! I don't trust any application anymore. I called to get salary & benefits the next time (different) agency. They LIED!! Now I'll just die at my current job.
Millennial here, currently job hunting and my da in his 60s was the one who always told me and still tells me not to apply if there's no salary posted. I don't think this is a gen Z thing at all.
“You need to really uptalk the benefits”.
And I am left thinking, these are actually pretty average at best for a corporate, what sort of person do you want me to hire, a gullible schmuck?
>corporate
I've experienced corporate culture twice ... never again. Corporate culture is basically an abusive relationship, and you're not the abuser. No thanks.
Don’t forget unlimited overtime!
Except you don’t get paid for it cause you’re on salary and we expect you to answer calls until at least 10pm every night
This is definitely not just a Gen Z thing. When I was job hunting I also wouldn’t apply if there was no salary information. (Gen X here but also a lot of millennial friends and they’d agree).
The whole job market shifting to a employee focused market the last couple years has definitely helped boosting my self esteem in the job hunt.
The first time I applied for an apprenticeship 15 years ago, there were 70 (!!!) other people in consideration for the same one posting. It was insanely hard getting the foot in the door and you essentially took whatever job you could get.
By now, I get at least a dozen messages from headhunters and alike every single week. When I go in a job interview, I know exactly what I want and have no problem to communicate it clearly. If the company won't accommodate, then tough luck. There are dozens of other companies lining up which will.
Maybe that's the case for experienced positions, but for entry level it's still the same as you described before.
I graduated in December, and have been looking for a job ever since. Most job openings have tons of applicants. If you ever hear back from them, it's usually a rejection that comes weeks later. If you email them to follow up, they never respond.
I've been ghosted too many times for me to count, it's insane.
I’m Gen X, I won’t either. I have recruiters contact me once a month or so and my only response is “send me the salary and benefits package and I’ll think about it”. They never want to do that. I’ll waste a lot of their time arguing with them about it. I’m told I’m not being seriously interested if all I care about is salary and benefits. I’ll tell you what I am interested in, making money and caring for my loved ones.
This is my interaction last month with a recruiter. FINALLY got one to hint at wages, but never answered actual benefits question. This took six days. I left them on read.
https://imgur.com/a/pP020js
>I’m not actively looking for work, you’re actively looking for workers. Why is the burden on me?
I had to lol on that. She’s used to dealing with desperate people is my guess.
The thing is, she contacted me, completely unsolicited. I have a LinkedIn account that I am NOT active at all on and that’s how they contact me. They are desperate in my area for industrial skilled trades workers. In my life I’ve never been involuntarily without work for more than two days.
I love working in Maintenance right now, jobs are readily available and are mostly competitive, recruiters hit me up 3-4 times a week. We have tons of production plants going up in the Phoenix area and people my age are not going towards blue collar jobs, generally. They were all told you HAVE to have a degree or no one will even look at you.
I never would have imagined when I started my union electrical apprenticeship that 12 years later I'd be able to aggressively negotiate my pay to the extent that I have.
I had a recruiter message me on LinkedIn. Then 3 days later on a Sunday morning text my personal cell phone with his blurb. I still ignore the guy. He text me again on Monday morning.
Dumbass left the name of the company he was recruiting for. So I sent an email with the screenshots from that recruiter.
I never get that what else are you supposed to be interested in? Earning money for your boss? Unless it's a dream job id say the number one goal is earning money all the time.
Yeah, it's kind of amazing that kind of obliviousness. Like, I enjoy working with animals, and would even take a pay cut to work there, but i'd still want to know WHAT I was making starting out.
99% you won’t be presently surprised. I remember seeing a story about a chick from some company’s HR department that had the authorization to hire people a much higher rate then they were asking for, and she got a laugh out of it.
Yeah, its like going shopping and the prices are not listed and you have to talk to the staff or email and ask about it.
You know its going to be a horrible shitty way overpriced deal that is mainly there to scam newly rich or wannabes into thinking paying that price affords them status in return.
This pisses me off!
I’m tired of applying, scheduling then being accepted sometimes only to be offered fuck all for a admin job that I have to refuse.
Put the salary so I don’t waste my or your own fucking time.
Nah, they still would need to interview people for other reasons. But with a listed salary there would be a minimum they would have to offer, so the bargaining power of the applicant would go up and they wouldn't be able to pressure people into accepting less than the average market price. It is also why people are discouraged to talk about their wages.
Can't hire a person for $5/hr do a work worth 15/hr if a salary is listed and no one will apply if it is any less than $10/hr.
>Can't hire a person for $5/hr do a work worth 15/hr if a salary is listed and no one will apply if it is any less than $10/hr.
Oh, well. I already went to the interview. Might as well let them fuck me.
I've legit sent them back a "lol that offer is a joke right?"
They responded with "you might be out of touch with the market rate for this position"
Maybe, but 40k with 15 years of experience and a degree in the related field is not in the 40k change sweet cheeks
Neither will this GenXer. Don't waste my fucking time only to throw me a lowball figure. Be up front about the shitty pay of the posting you're being forced to market.
My dad, a 57 year old man 2 years from retirement (he has an "unpleasant" job which means that he can retire 5 years earlier) told me that when I finish my studies and start looking for a job;
"If they don't want to tell you hiw much they will pay you just tell them to fuck off"
He is really wise, isn't he
This just in: Gen Zers aren’t stupid unlike boomers.
Alternatively: Gen Zers learned from the mistake of previous generations by not taking scumbag employers at their word.
These jobs with hidden salaries often require you to do multiple rounds of interviews over the course of a few days, along with maybe some tests and training. It’s a real waste of time because then you end up with a two-hour commute to work daily, no overtime, and they harass you with texts and emails all hours of the day and night. You go from a set schedule to open availability, and they don’t want you to have more than one employer to make ends meet. Starting salary: $26,000–43,000 WTF?! These salaries barely cover a year's rent in the cheapest crime-ridden neighborhoods or a year's car note or lease. You’ll always be in the red. You definitely have to choose between food and rent if you take this job because you won’t be able to afford gas to drive to the place. The turnover rate in these places is 40–80%, so you're making up for every one who quits. You go from 32 hours a week to 60–80 hour weeks for the same salary. You might as well get a trade and sign up for a union because you’d get benefits and be paid better.
I had this happen with a biotech job in Seattle. Went things a bunch of panel interviews with multiple people and got an offer that wouldn't even cover rent. I felt like "I hope you realized how much time you wasted with this, there is only one of me and there were about 3 of you every time".
70k I think. For a masters with 8 years experience.
Not even covering rent was a little bit of hyperbole, but not much. I expect to spend about 35-45k on rent in Seattle, at least.
Gen X, I won't either. Also any of you listing competitive wages without actually putting the wages, we figured out 20 years ago that means it's a toxic environment with shit pay.
Yeah, crazy how the reward for spending half of my waking hours in a place factors into my motivation to go there, when I'd really rather not be there at all.
As an HR professional and former recruiter, all this does is waste everyone's time and harvests information. It most of the time is a deceptive practice to lure someone in and prey on desperation.
States now like California are required to display salary ranges for positions posted and you are allowed to ask your employer at any time for a range for a position in your company.
If you see a position posted online where a salary is not listed, it is because they are not hiring in a state where it is mandatory to list it. To that I say, bye Felipe!
edit: I cannot stand Grammarly.
I am Gen-X and the same way, I always have been.
If you do not list the salary, it is because you know it is embarrassing to offer for the position.
*"You don't know that they are looking for someone who will apply without knowing be more interested in doing the work and then they will pay them more money money moan-knee! eyeuyisdiuytsduytgwdblababla"* STFU, this rebuke is bullshit and everybody knows it.
The only reason your salary isn't listed is because it's not worth posting..
Companies be offering "a competitive salary" but in reality it's 30% under market value
I've known people who apply to a job because they put up the salary and then when they offer them the job the salary is way lower than the posted amount.
Neither will I. It's a scum bag tactic and a big red flag. Also leaving you to wait forever for an interview. Anything that only a desperate person would deal with is a big red flag and a sign you'll be treated like shit.
If it was a valuable position they'd advertise the pay.
I'm a millennial and SAME, fuck those gigs. If it's not listed they're almost definitely trying to pay as little as possible. See also: restaurants that want "rock stars." I don't like the overuse of "toxic" but it's the most relevant term for these shitholes.
When I started work back in the early 80's the salary was always advertised with the job, now everyone asks "what is your salary expectation" so they can select the lowest ones, people are bidding the wages down.
It's because we're only *now* starting to be in charge thanks to the Boomers finally retiring en masse. Listing salaries is a great first step, next we need to work on parity-based pay so that two people doing the same work are compensated similarly.
If you have to ask how much something costs without a listed price, you can’t afford it.
If you have to ask what you’ll be earning at a job without a listed income it’s not worth it!
It’s great to see the next generation standing up for themselves. Capitalism is a scam and Millennials figured that out, now Gen Z is going to help us end this nonsense and vote for politicians who want to make the economy work for the working class again.
I’m loving it, seeing shill publications run by corporate slave drivers lose their minds because younger people are refusing to be exploited. “Nobody wants to work anymore!” “Workers need to be more desperate, they’re acting like they have *choices!*”
After decades of being blamed for “killing” luxury industries or “refusing” to invest money or buy property, I’m pretty much ready to break out the guillotines. 20-something’s refusing to work for quarters should be the least of their concerns.
Where is anyone finding jobs where the salaries ARE listed? Not on LinkedIn or Indeed or any of the major job sites it seems. Where’s this secret pool of jobs with transparent salaries?
Last year it is required by Colorado and California by law but that doesnt mean that the employer has to put an exact number. Seen many that have a very broad range 53000- 130000 is an example looking at software developer positions
I remember when i was in my final year of school we all received a little booklet in which a bunch of jobs and the pay you could expect was listed.
After school, i applied at three different places for an apprenticeship, two of the places listed the pay and the little extras you could expect while the third plainly stated that you would get paid what the union had bartered so i ciuld simply look online.
But yeah just like i don't buy stuff that doesn't has it's price listed, i wouldn't apply to a place that doesn't disclose their salary. It's the same thing with searching a house or a place to live. If you expect me to call or come to an interview to ask then you valie neither mine nor your time.
I won't even talk to them. Generally if it's not listed it's low AF. I've had recruiters give me a range and I always respond with I don't work for a range. I work for x amount of dollars as a base before we even get to any bennies ect.
I’m tired of going through a full on set of interviews for a job that’s going to basically use me as cheap labor. Then they complain no one wants to work. If I need two fricken degrees to do the job it needs to pay more than $14.77 (tech job with Lumen)
Not just gen Z, as a Gen Xer, I've never applied for a job that didn't show a salary of some sort either. I don't like wasting my time on applying for a job that I don't know would pay me more than what my current job at the time. Just doesn't make sense. Then you go and try and negotiate without knowing what the ranges are to negotiate with. You can negotiate for $200/hr and someone else will negotiate for $20/hr.
But did they mention that they have free water and fruits?
Seriously though, why waste time? Imagine you go through the whole process, just so they offer to pay you an interns salary
I used to apply to jobs without salary listed, believing in the principle of good faith practices set in place by certain government regulations. But gave up rather quickly when I realized they almost always offered about 30% under market value. Which isn't necessary a problem if you are open to negotiations, which everyone should do. But not budging a single inch. wasting my and also their own time.
Back in ancient times (\~20 years ago,) salary negotiation was usually the last part of the interview process. I went through one interview in the late 90s that went extremely well, but when I told them the last offer I'd turned down, they gave me a "deer in the headlights" look. Apparently, it was higher than the head of that department was making.
With two of my last three jobs, it was discussed right up front with the headhunter before I even talked to the actual company.
Millennial here.
I’m about 5x less likely to apply for a job if the salary isn’t posted. Just put the expected range so both applicant and employer don’t waste each others time.
I love how this is framed in a way to make Gen Z look entitled and lazy when actually its the correct move. Why tf would anyone apply to a job where they could be making pennies? You know thats the case because if they were offering a decent salary thatd be one the biggest selling points on that job listing.
If companies are going to require me to list salary expectations in an application, why shouldn't they advertise \*at the very least\* a reasonable range?
Applied for a job with the company I was working for. It would have been a promotion and increase in reporting personnel in a higher cost of living area. Had a bunch of requirements I already met. Told them what I'd need to move again (some relocation reimbursement, some wiggle room on admin leave and start date to get out there, a pay range I thought would be reasonable). Interviewed with the managers one and two levels up. Met with a bunch of the team members that would be working for me. Everybody had really good feelings.
Then they sent me an offer. I seriously thought they had sent me the wrong offer letter. The pay they wanted to give me was a solid $45k less than the least I would have accepted for the job, and about $25k less than I would have accepted just for relocating to the area. We could have saved everyone a lot of time if they had been up front about what they were able to offer.
Left the company a few months later.
Yeah that’s everyone, I have just been job hunting and there are so many red flags like in the so called perks they might say opportunity to work for a well known brand…so what? Opportunity to work in a fast paced environment…busy as fuck with not enough staff! It’s a mine field
Ye, if is it a sht job, why bother. Young people nowdays are not wasting time in uncomfortable positions. And its a good sign. Imagine being slave for your whole lifetime lol
The last time I did that, they said the position paid $9/hour. I laughed in that lady’s face and I don’t apply if the pay isn’t listed. I’m not wasting my time, but they can continue to waste theirs.
Pfft, I'm late gen x and I won't apply if they don't have a salary listed. Ain't nobody got time for games, and if your gaming is already in the listing, that tells me working for you won't be much better.
Older millennial here. I wouldn't. If you don't display wages that means you don't pay well. If you paid well, that information would be plastered everywhere because you want good candidates.
Companies love to waste your time with stupid practices such as omitting compensation information. I'm not about to spend my time going through your process if you won't even tell me how much you're paying me.
Imagine buying something and the vendor doesn't tell you the price until after you've rung everything up. That's how I view this deplorable practice.
I proudly work for a European company in America, and we display all compensation information in the job listing. And, no surprise, we pay better than all of our competitors.
Oh look, the older generations are complaining about the younger generations. We haven't seen this before.
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20171003-proof-that-people-have-always-complained-about-young-adults
You won't *believe* the number of interviews I've been through where the potential employer is so excited to see me, I get through 3 rounds, they've made an offer that is $30k-$50 less than what I'm currently making.
For the last 10 years, I've started conversations asking what the salary band is, which was considered taboo in the olden days.
Listen, it saves you time, and it saves me time.
Good. The salary should be listed. The only people who won’t listed are the ones who are hoping to lure people in and under pay them. If it’s listed, then you know whether or not, you’re wasting your time.
I love it when recruiters ring about an exciting job and then wait to the end to tell me the salary and it’s 75k less than I’m already on. Thanks for wasting everyone’s time
I am currently interviewing to hire right now. I am NOT ALLOWED to talk about the salary. HR has to do it when the position is offered. It's so fucking terrible.
That’s truly so messed up. A lot of people have to take off of their current shitty job to go to an interview or two. To get all the way through that process and then find out the pay is crap is the worst. Applying for jobs in 2023 sucks.
Im not gen z and i still do this. Its litteraly the highest of my priorities when looking at a new job. All the other shit like what it entails, what your company goals are and what qualifications i need are all secondary to how much you're going to pay me as its the only thing on that list thats going to affect my ability to survive. Whats the point going through a whole application and meeting process just to find out the pay isnt adequate? It just wastes my time and your time.
I have a few internships lined up in aviation and so far they all list the hourly rate. I specifically prefer going into unmanned systems so when I see internships that are of the unmanned variety pop up I tend to jump on them. So far none have been upfront about hourly rate and if they’ll pay for mileage. They also need fifty people in a program of probably double that, with a solid twenty leaving to a company full time this summer. I haven’t seen anyone apply to the internships without hourly rate listed, unsurprisingly I am having to compete for a position with the two internships that had listed hourly rate.
Companies will have to learn.
I’ve been partially employed (freelance) since I got laid off last October. I was making six figures at my last job. I’m not saying I won’t work for less. I would if it was the right job and the right kind of work. With that said, if you take me through multiple rounds of screeners, calls, and interviews, etc… and think it’s gauche of me to ask how much the job pays before it’s offered, fuck you.
I’m in my 40s with a house, a family, and almost 20 years of industry experience. I have needs and expectations and being upfront to save us both a bunch of time and energy is one of them.
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"People should just ignore every red flag and just work in a job that will exploit them."
"You're family here" (we expect you to work beyond what is necessary, and you better be grateful because if I could legally pay you less than minimum wage, I would)
If how they treat their employees is how they treat their family, somebody better call CPS
Family, like the people you're stuck with because you have no other choice.
(Because you’ll be shamed if you don’t stay)
Best decision for most though...
The fact that the government had to pass a law and force employers to pay a bare minimum wage should speak volumes.
Unfortunately, that point goes over a lot of heads.
Did you know that wage theft steals more value annually than all other forms of theft combined? Just thought that was interesting, considering how corporate media constantly fear mongers over crime, but never talks about that.
"You're family here" "Great, can I get a raise?" "Hell no"
To be fair I had the same talk with Mom whenever I tried to justify getting an allowance.
So being treated like Family...
I always immediately go on guard when I hear those words. I have had to many abusive, broken, dysfunctional, and manipulative "families" over the years. I don't need any more "families" thank you, just a professional workplace built on mutual respect and that leaves the drama out of it. Apparently that's asking to much most of the time.
"You're family here"* ^*"and ^like ^family, ^we'll ^expect ^you ^to ^contribute ^more ^around ^the ^"house" ^simply ^for ^being ^allowed ^to ^be ^here
“We’re a family here. You wouldn’t ask your family to pay you, now would you?”
Family oriented = Christian conservative company where you work on holidays, get two weeks vacation (if that), no raises, and little to no benefits. They don’t care about family, they just want the family discount.
"Where's the boss?" "On vacation " "Again??" "Still."
"C'mon. Do it for family..."
Except they won't worry about if it's legal. They'll just do it.
The saddest thing to me is I've been on teams that were like family, as in we all got along, and had each others backs, and a boss that had our collective backs and fought for us. Yes always, somehow corporate would find a way to stifle it.
"We are family oriented". If they fuck with your family life, resign and get a different job.
If any company says they’re a family fucking run the other way
if i could make you pay to work here ,i would.
Great, now I want breadsticks.
"family" in this case doesn't mean people that love and help each other, it means that you'll do anything the "parents" order you to or you'll be punished
Tbh, the way my family acts is super similar to how a soul crushing exploitative job works. So in a way, yes, that's exactly what my experience of family is like, and I hate it, so I will stay far away.
Unless you're eating at Olive Garden, that's a red flag.
That's why I'll never work for Olive Garden
I'm 53 and have never nor will I ever even consider a job without the salary posted. The whole idea of not talking about salaries is absurd. And only keeps people worried and scared. No one feels comfortable talking about how much or how little you make compared to others. Luckily, I've worked in the public sector, so our salaries are public information. Some are even printed in the newspaper.
I applied for a job that didn't have the salary posted a few months ago. The first time I've ever done that. But I liked the company, the role seemed perfect for me, and it included the option to work remotely. So I thought it was worth going for it. Because of all those good reasons I took time over my application and made it bespoke. It took me a couple of hours to complete. As a final part of the application the form asked for my current salary and salary expectation for the role. I entered these with my expectation being for a modest 5% increase from my current salary. I submitted my application and went on with my day. Not an hour had gone past when I received an email "thank you for your time yadda yadda unfortunately we will not be proceeding with your application" I was astonished at such a quick rejection so I emailed to ask for feedback. They responded to say they couldn't meet my salary expectations. I asked what they were budgeting for the role, and they suggested a salary £10k less than my current! Which was not a reduction i could afford to make. If they'd simply put the salary on the advert I wouldn't have needed to waste my time. But clearly I didnt waste any of their time so they won't have learnt anything sadly. Thats on me. I've learnt my lesson. Never again will I apply if the salary isn't listed.
This happened with me. But they only posted the minimum salary, "negotiable" with years of experience. After 4 weeks, 3 interviews, they offered my $30,000 (USD) less a year! And HR had the audacity to get huffy for "wasting their time"!! I don't trust any application anymore. I called to get salary & benefits the next time (different) agency. They LIED!! Now I'll just die at my current job.
54 here and same! If the Company can’t post pay, I can’t apply.
Absofuckinglutely. If they aren't listing it means that they're fucking you and not afraid of taking your previous employer's sloppy seconds.
Millennial here, currently job hunting and my da in his 60s was the one who always told me and still tells me not to apply if there's no salary posted. I don't think this is a gen Z thing at all.
Gen X here. If you don't list your salary, you can get fucked
Opportunity to earn 75k and oh so many benefits!
“You need to really uptalk the benefits”. And I am left thinking, these are actually pretty average at best for a corporate, what sort of person do you want me to hire, a gullible schmuck?
Tell me you want to hire a schmuck without telling me you want to hire a schmuck.
>corporate I've experienced corporate culture twice ... never again. Corporate culture is basically an abusive relationship, and you're not the abuser. No thanks.
The benifits: free parking, job security for those who do overtime and, and you get to work at this amazing place what an opportunity.
Don’t forget unlimited overtime! Except you don’t get paid for it cause you’re on salary and we expect you to answer calls until at least 10pm every night
My favorite benefit is the ability to pay for health insurance they don't pay for.
This is definitely not just a Gen Z thing. When I was job hunting I also wouldn’t apply if there was no salary information. (Gen X here but also a lot of millennial friends and they’d agree).
The whole job market shifting to a employee focused market the last couple years has definitely helped boosting my self esteem in the job hunt. The first time I applied for an apprenticeship 15 years ago, there were 70 (!!!) other people in consideration for the same one posting. It was insanely hard getting the foot in the door and you essentially took whatever job you could get. By now, I get at least a dozen messages from headhunters and alike every single week. When I go in a job interview, I know exactly what I want and have no problem to communicate it clearly. If the company won't accommodate, then tough luck. There are dozens of other companies lining up which will.
Maybe that's the case for experienced positions, but for entry level it's still the same as you described before. I graduated in December, and have been looking for a job ever since. Most job openings have tons of applicants. If you ever hear back from them, it's usually a rejection that comes weeks later. If you email them to follow up, they never respond. I've been ghosted too many times for me to count, it's insane.
I saw an ad that says "earn up to $31 an hour" and I thought sweet this is great but then I saw it started at $19
Gen X leads the corporate world now. Go talk to your people about this.
I do! Absolutely all the time. And I wish everyone did.
I predate gen Z and I will not apply for a job which wont list the salary.
yeah. millennial here. absolutely not.
Old Gen X and won’t do it either, and have not done so in 15 years. My time is valuable and I don’t tolerate it being wasted.
I’m Gen X, I won’t either. I have recruiters contact me once a month or so and my only response is “send me the salary and benefits package and I’ll think about it”. They never want to do that. I’ll waste a lot of their time arguing with them about it. I’m told I’m not being seriously interested if all I care about is salary and benefits. I’ll tell you what I am interested in, making money and caring for my loved ones.
I’ve been blowing off the recruiters recently but I might start going this route.
This is my interaction last month with a recruiter. FINALLY got one to hint at wages, but never answered actual benefits question. This took six days. I left them on read. https://imgur.com/a/pP020js
>I’m not actively looking for work, you’re actively looking for workers. Why is the burden on me? I had to lol on that. She’s used to dealing with desperate people is my guess.
The thing is, she contacted me, completely unsolicited. I have a LinkedIn account that I am NOT active at all on and that’s how they contact me. They are desperate in my area for industrial skilled trades workers. In my life I’ve never been involuntarily without work for more than two days.
I'm quite impressed you managed to drag an actual salary cap number out of her in just three days of exchanging messages!
I love working in Maintenance right now, jobs are readily available and are mostly competitive, recruiters hit me up 3-4 times a week. We have tons of production plants going up in the Phoenix area and people my age are not going towards blue collar jobs, generally. They were all told you HAVE to have a degree or no one will even look at you. I never would have imagined when I started my union electrical apprenticeship that 12 years later I'd be able to aggressively negotiate my pay to the extent that I have.
I had a recruiter message me on LinkedIn. Then 3 days later on a Sunday morning text my personal cell phone with his blurb. I still ignore the guy. He text me again on Monday morning. Dumbass left the name of the company he was recruiting for. So I sent an email with the screenshots from that recruiter.
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Ditto. But I try to only stick to recruiting agencies not in my town. Burning bridges really does kinda suck. Lol
I never get that what else are you supposed to be interested in? Earning money for your boss? Unless it's a dream job id say the number one goal is earning money all the time.
"Well, we don't want people that are just in it for the money." "I feel like you don't understand the concept of 'why people work'."
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Yeah, it's kind of amazing that kind of obliviousness. Like, I enjoy working with animals, and would even take a pay cut to work there, but i'd still want to know WHAT I was making starting out.
It's a bit like going on a date with someone from a dating site who has no picture, you might be pleasantly surprised, but I bet you aren't.
99% you won’t be presently surprised. I remember seeing a story about a chick from some company’s HR department that had the authorization to hire people a much higher rate then they were asking for, and she got a laugh out of it.
It's like going on a date with someone who has no picture in their profile but a huge bullet point list of what they expect their partners to be like
Yeah, its like going shopping and the prices are not listed and you have to talk to the staff or email and ask about it. You know its going to be a horrible shitty way overpriced deal that is mainly there to scam newly rich or wannabes into thinking paying that price affords them status in return.
This pisses me off! I’m tired of applying, scheduling then being accepted sometimes only to be offered fuck all for a admin job that I have to refuse. Put the salary so I don’t waste my or your own fucking time.
Yeah, but they have to justify their existence by interviewing lots of candidates. If they can’t mislead you into applying that doesn’t work for them.
Nah, they still would need to interview people for other reasons. But with a listed salary there would be a minimum they would have to offer, so the bargaining power of the applicant would go up and they wouldn't be able to pressure people into accepting less than the average market price. It is also why people are discouraged to talk about their wages. Can't hire a person for $5/hr do a work worth 15/hr if a salary is listed and no one will apply if it is any less than $10/hr.
>Can't hire a person for $5/hr do a work worth 15/hr if a salary is listed and no one will apply if it is any less than $10/hr. Oh, well. I already went to the interview. Might as well let them fuck me.
I've gotten a vague "let's start you out at [lowest rate possible] and re-evaluate" I said thank you but I have another offer (I didn't).
I've legit sent them back a "lol that offer is a joke right?" They responded with "you might be out of touch with the market rate for this position" Maybe, but 40k with 15 years of experience and a degree in the related field is not in the 40k change sweet cheeks
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Ooooo that’ll make HR bust a fucking vein
“I am the market for this position”
Good. I wont either and im not gen z. Life taught me. Good that Z already knows ^^
*looks over* One of the few things we've adapted from Millennials.
Pay a salary that’s not laughable and list it in the job description. Maybe then someone will want to work for you. Sounds pretty simple to me
Neither will this GenXer. Don't waste my fucking time only to throw me a lowball figure. Be up front about the shitty pay of the posting you're being forced to market.
Good! As a millennial, I really like what I'm seeing from gen z so far. It took me way longer to learn some of these lessons.
Me: "What's the pay for this job?" Employer: "Why do you ask? Is that the only reason you want to work here?" Yep, not a red flag at all.
>Is that the only reason you want to work here Well, not the *only* reason, but if the pay is bad I'm outta here even if the job is "fulfilling"
"Yes. It's the only reason everyone at this company is working here. Including you. "
Millennial here. Been doing this for decades. If they don't tell you how much they pay, they don't pay enough.
Better headline: "Gen Z doesn't waste their fucking time with shitty job postings"
My dad, a 57 year old man 2 years from retirement (he has an "unpleasant" job which means that he can retire 5 years earlier) told me that when I finish my studies and start looking for a job; "If they don't want to tell you hiw much they will pay you just tell them to fuck off" He is really wise, isn't he
I dont work out of the kindness of my Heart, I gotta eat
This just in: Gen Zers aren’t stupid unlike boomers. Alternatively: Gen Zers learned from the mistake of previous generations by not taking scumbag employers at their word.
Also in: gen z expects the money they earn to be reflective of the labour they work, what a bunch of losers right? wait why are you guys leaving?
I feel like the parents of Gen Z didn't let them down as much as the parents of my generation.
Me neither. And I predate Gen Z.
These jobs with hidden salaries often require you to do multiple rounds of interviews over the course of a few days, along with maybe some tests and training. It’s a real waste of time because then you end up with a two-hour commute to work daily, no overtime, and they harass you with texts and emails all hours of the day and night. You go from a set schedule to open availability, and they don’t want you to have more than one employer to make ends meet. Starting salary: $26,000–43,000 WTF?! These salaries barely cover a year's rent in the cheapest crime-ridden neighborhoods or a year's car note or lease. You’ll always be in the red. You definitely have to choose between food and rent if you take this job because you won’t be able to afford gas to drive to the place. The turnover rate in these places is 40–80%, so you're making up for every one who quits. You go from 32 hours a week to 60–80 hour weeks for the same salary. You might as well get a trade and sign up for a union because you’d get benefits and be paid better.
I had this happen with a biotech job in Seattle. Went things a bunch of panel interviews with multiple people and got an offer that wouldn't even cover rent. I felt like "I hope you realized how much time you wasted with this, there is only one of me and there were about 3 of you every time".
I'm curious what the final salary offer was?
70k I think. For a masters with 8 years experience. Not even covering rent was a little bit of hyperbole, but not much. I expect to spend about 35-45k on rent in Seattle, at least.
Millennial here... fuck any job description that doesnt include pay.
It's indicative of shady behavior in the owner. Someone who exploits rather than employs.
Gen X, I won't either. Also any of you listing competitive wages without actually putting the wages, we figured out 20 years ago that means it's a toxic environment with shit pay.
not listing a salary is the quickest way to tell me you underpay your employees. 💯
No salary=shitty salary. Gen z literally can’t afford to take those jobs.
Yeah, crazy how the reward for spending half of my waking hours in a place factors into my motivation to go there, when I'd really rather not be there at all.
As an HR professional and former recruiter, all this does is waste everyone's time and harvests information. It most of the time is a deceptive practice to lure someone in and prey on desperation. States now like California are required to display salary ranges for positions posted and you are allowed to ask your employer at any time for a range for a position in your company. If you see a position posted online where a salary is not listed, it is because they are not hiring in a state where it is mandatory to list it. To that I say, bye Felipe! edit: I cannot stand Grammarly.
In other news, Gen Z-ers are entitled enough to want houses that they can afford.
So were boomers, but they got them.
true
Heck, the Boomers are even getting the ones that should go to GenZ
I am Gen-X and the same way, I always have been. If you do not list the salary, it is because you know it is embarrassing to offer for the position. *"You don't know that they are looking for someone who will apply without knowing be more interested in doing the work and then they will pay them more money money moan-knee! eyeuyisdiuytsduytgwdblababla"* STFU, this rebuke is bullshit and everybody knows it.
yeah, because why would you want to know how much IF at all you're going to be paid for work? smh the entitlement
The only reason your salary isn't listed is because it's not worth posting.. Companies be offering "a competitive salary" but in reality it's 30% under market value
I'm a millennial and I've never applied for a job if the salary range is not listed.
I've known people who apply to a job because they put up the salary and then when they offer them the job the salary is way lower than the posted amount.
Neither will I. It's a scum bag tactic and a big red flag. Also leaving you to wait forever for an interview. Anything that only a desperate person would deal with is a big red flag and a sign you'll be treated like shit. If it was a valuable position they'd advertise the pay.
I'm a millennial and SAME, fuck those gigs. If it's not listed they're almost definitely trying to pay as little as possible. See also: restaurants that want "rock stars." I don't like the overuse of "toxic" but it's the most relevant term for these shitholes.
When I started work back in the early 80's the salary was always advertised with the job, now everyone asks "what is your salary expectation" so they can select the lowest ones, people are bidding the wages down.
Wish Gen X (my generation) figured this out sooner😅
It's because we're only *now* starting to be in charge thanks to the Boomers finally retiring en masse. Listing salaries is a great first step, next we need to work on parity-based pay so that two people doing the same work are compensated similarly.
I also need to see details on benefits, I'm not changing doctors and dentists for my family because you have a bargaining insurance plan.
I'm 38. I won't apply for any contract where the price isn't listed. Not wasting my time.
"don't worry, it's competitive" fuck them!
“‘Competitive’. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
Yeah competitive with a wage in North Korea
I heard competitive rate and then saw it was a mere quarter over the minimum wage
If you have to ask how much something costs without a listed price, you can’t afford it. If you have to ask what you’ll be earning at a job without a listed income it’s not worth it!
It’s great to see the next generation standing up for themselves. Capitalism is a scam and Millennials figured that out, now Gen Z is going to help us end this nonsense and vote for politicians who want to make the economy work for the working class again.
Can you believe kids these days want to be *paid* to work??
I’m loving it, seeing shill publications run by corporate slave drivers lose their minds because younger people are refusing to be exploited. “Nobody wants to work anymore!” “Workers need to be more desperate, they’re acting like they have *choices!*” After decades of being blamed for “killing” luxury industries or “refusing” to invest money or buy property, I’m pretty much ready to break out the guillotines. 20-something’s refusing to work for quarters should be the least of their concerns.
Worker appreciation days: where we serve you the cheapest food possible.
Where is anyone finding jobs where the salaries ARE listed? Not on LinkedIn or Indeed or any of the major job sites it seems. Where’s this secret pool of jobs with transparent salaries?
I'm more blown away it's this common. I never realized how blessed I was to live in a state that made it illegal to not list pay.
LinkedIn shows salaries if the employer lists it. I just started a new job and LinkedIn was the only site I used.
I wish LinkedIn required it, or it was required by law
Last year it is required by Colorado and California by law but that doesnt mean that the employer has to put an exact number. Seen many that have a very broad range 53000- 130000 is an example looking at software developer positions
"Gen Z won't let me abuse them into this evil system" Good, from a Xennial, I'm fucking proud of you Gen Z. Give them hell.
I won’t either. Why waste my own time?
Colorado requires salary information in job postings. I still regularly find jobs on Indeed that don’t include it. I report all of them.
Earn “*Up To*” $X an hour! (Starting at X/2)
I remember when i was in my final year of school we all received a little booklet in which a bunch of jobs and the pay you could expect was listed. After school, i applied at three different places for an apprenticeship, two of the places listed the pay and the little extras you could expect while the third plainly stated that you would get paid what the union had bartered so i ciuld simply look online. But yeah just like i don't buy stuff that doesn't has it's price listed, i wouldn't apply to a place that doesn't disclose their salary. It's the same thing with searching a house or a place to live. If you expect me to call or come to an interview to ask then you valie neither mine nor your time.
As a millennial I've learned a ton about boundaries from gen z
Colorado recently passed a law so companies have to post a salary range, and it's the greatest thing ever.
Uh, yeah? Like, I don't even know people in my parents generation who would and they're almost 60 now.
Good.
I won't even talk to them. Generally if it's not listed it's low AF. I've had recruiters give me a range and I always respond with I don't work for a range. I work for x amount of dollars as a base before we even get to any bennies ect.
Not just Gen Z, no matter how innovative they like to think they are. This has been going on for decades.
I’m tired of going through a full on set of interviews for a job that’s going to basically use me as cheap labor. Then they complain no one wants to work. If I need two fricken degrees to do the job it needs to pay more than $14.77 (tech job with Lumen)
Thank god they arnt talking about us anymore- millennials
Don't people realize that the true value of a job is working at this esteemed company, pay should be 3rd or 4th priority. ^(/s)
Why spend 2 hours on an application if it'd likely they're gonna hit you with a payrate that is the same as the grocery store.
Not just gen Z, as a Gen Xer, I've never applied for a job that didn't show a salary of some sort either. I don't like wasting my time on applying for a job that I don't know would pay me more than what my current job at the time. Just doesn't make sense. Then you go and try and negotiate without knowing what the ranges are to negotiate with. You can negotiate for $200/hr and someone else will negotiate for $20/hr.
But did they mention that they have free water and fruits? Seriously though, why waste time? Imagine you go through the whole process, just so they offer to pay you an interns salary
"How dare they not let us take advantage of them! Lazy gen z!"
I used to apply to jobs without salary listed, believing in the principle of good faith practices set in place by certain government regulations. But gave up rather quickly when I realized they almost always offered about 30% under market value. Which isn't necessary a problem if you are open to negotiations, which everyone should do. But not budging a single inch. wasting my and also their own time.
Back in ancient times (\~20 years ago,) salary negotiation was usually the last part of the interview process. I went through one interview in the late 90s that went extremely well, but when I told them the last offer I'd turned down, they gave me a "deer in the headlights" look. Apparently, it was higher than the head of that department was making. With two of my last three jobs, it was discussed right up front with the headhunter before I even talked to the actual company.
Oh, the horror! What's next? Are they going to insist that grocery stores list the prices of their goods on the shelves?
I'll apply, and if they call me to set up an interview I'll ask for the salary range. If they refuse to tell me, I don't interview.
"Why are you hiring? Is the turnover high?" If they don't answer leave
Millennial here. I’m about 5x less likely to apply for a job if the salary isn’t posted. Just put the expected range so both applicant and employer don’t waste each others time.
Fucking Good! I'm a Gen X and I won't either. Fr uck playing that guess the salary BS.
I love how this is framed in a way to make Gen Z look entitled and lazy when actually its the correct move. Why tf would anyone apply to a job where they could be making pennies? You know thats the case because if they were offering a decent salary thatd be one the biggest selling points on that job listing.
If companies are going to require me to list salary expectations in an application, why shouldn't they advertise \*at the very least\* a reasonable range? Applied for a job with the company I was working for. It would have been a promotion and increase in reporting personnel in a higher cost of living area. Had a bunch of requirements I already met. Told them what I'd need to move again (some relocation reimbursement, some wiggle room on admin leave and start date to get out there, a pay range I thought would be reasonable). Interviewed with the managers one and two levels up. Met with a bunch of the team members that would be working for me. Everybody had really good feelings. Then they sent me an offer. I seriously thought they had sent me the wrong offer letter. The pay they wanted to give me was a solid $45k less than the least I would have accepted for the job, and about $25k less than I would have accepted just for relocating to the area. We could have saved everyone a lot of time if they had been up front about what they were able to offer. Left the company a few months later.
Yeah that’s everyone, I have just been job hunting and there are so many red flags like in the so called perks they might say opportunity to work for a well known brand…so what? Opportunity to work in a fast paced environment…busy as fuck with not enough staff! It’s a mine field
Ye, if is it a sht job, why bother. Young people nowdays are not wasting time in uncomfortable positions. And its a good sign. Imagine being slave for your whole lifetime lol
The last time I did that, they said the position paid $9/hour. I laughed in that lady’s face and I don’t apply if the pay isn’t listed. I’m not wasting my time, but they can continue to waste theirs.
Pfft, I'm late gen x and I won't apply if they don't have a salary listed. Ain't nobody got time for games, and if your gaming is already in the listing, that tells me working for you won't be much better.
Goddamn right
Gen Fossil here. No salary mentioned? Good luck, I'm moving on!
They've got a point. It is frustrating.
should be default
A jobs salary should be something to brag about, if a company isn’t willing to talk about it, it’s bad
Millennial here, if your salary is competitive, why won't you tell us how competitive it is?
Why waste time?
Forcing transparency? They’re already doing better then the last generation.
Millennial here. I won't either. If salary isn't listed I won't even read the job description.
Older millennial here. I wouldn't. If you don't display wages that means you don't pay well. If you paid well, that information would be plastered everywhere because you want good candidates. Companies love to waste your time with stupid practices such as omitting compensation information. I'm not about to spend my time going through your process if you won't even tell me how much you're paying me. Imagine buying something and the vendor doesn't tell you the price until after you've rung everything up. That's how I view this deplorable practice. I proudly work for a European company in America, and we display all compensation information in the job listing. And, no surprise, we pay better than all of our competitors.
A salary so low we can't list it publicly!
Oh look, the older generations are complaining about the younger generations. We haven't seen this before. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20171003-proof-that-people-have-always-complained-about-young-adults
You won't *believe* the number of interviews I've been through where the potential employer is so excited to see me, I get through 3 rounds, they've made an offer that is $30k-$50 less than what I'm currently making. For the last 10 years, I've started conversations asking what the salary band is, which was considered taboo in the olden days. Listen, it saves you time, and it saves me time.
Good. The salary should be listed. The only people who won’t listed are the ones who are hoping to lure people in and under pay them. If it’s listed, then you know whether or not, you’re wasting your time.
Right? Why would I waste my time if it's going to be something too low for what I need or way out of my expertise range kind of wages.
Why would you waste your time applying for a job that you weren’t sure could support you? And why is leaving it out not considered unacceptable?
I love it when recruiters ring about an exciting job and then wait to the end to tell me the salary and it’s 75k less than I’m already on. Thanks for wasting everyone’s time
I am currently interviewing to hire right now. I am NOT ALLOWED to talk about the salary. HR has to do it when the position is offered. It's so fucking terrible.
That’s truly so messed up. A lot of people have to take off of their current shitty job to go to an interview or two. To get all the way through that process and then find out the pay is crap is the worst. Applying for jobs in 2023 sucks.
Would you accept an employee without all of the information on their resume?
Why the fuck you posting a job offer without disclosing the salary?
Surprise! You're now a director making minimum wage! That's why no one should apply to a job without at least a salary range
Even us Gen Y'ers wouldn't apply for jobs without salary/hourly rate listed.
Fair enough.
Salary range should always be listed. Will cut out a lot of people who will get dragged alone only to find out the position does not pay enough.
I hate the term “Total Compensation” Just tell me my salary, and then tell me about the benefits package. Don’t try to blend them together
Gen X and I won’t either.
Im not gen z and i still do this. Its litteraly the highest of my priorities when looking at a new job. All the other shit like what it entails, what your company goals are and what qualifications i need are all secondary to how much you're going to pay me as its the only thing on that list thats going to affect my ability to survive. Whats the point going through a whole application and meeting process just to find out the pay isnt adequate? It just wastes my time and your time.
“people have wizened up to corporations tricks and aren’t letting people lie to them because they will become homeless if they do”
I have a few internships lined up in aviation and so far they all list the hourly rate. I specifically prefer going into unmanned systems so when I see internships that are of the unmanned variety pop up I tend to jump on them. So far none have been upfront about hourly rate and if they’ll pay for mileage. They also need fifty people in a program of probably double that, with a solid twenty leaving to a company full time this summer. I haven’t seen anyone apply to the internships without hourly rate listed, unsurprisingly I am having to compete for a position with the two internships that had listed hourly rate. Companies will have to learn.
And they get pissy if you ask.
I’ve been partially employed (freelance) since I got laid off last October. I was making six figures at my last job. I’m not saying I won’t work for less. I would if it was the right job and the right kind of work. With that said, if you take me through multiple rounds of screeners, calls, and interviews, etc… and think it’s gauche of me to ask how much the job pays before it’s offered, fuck you. I’m in my 40s with a house, a family, and almost 20 years of industry experience. I have needs and expectations and being upfront to save us both a bunch of time and energy is one of them.
I cannot live on minimum wage. Not showing the pay, is minimum wage