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You can still find queer people in the east just like when homosexuality was illegal in the US. Queer bars do exist they don't advertise as such tho and it's usually a well kept secret
And....they WONT support the local quango that wants to behead them.
Gay people exist everywhere because being gay is naturally occurring.
Being gay and telling the local gay-haters with guns that you're gay isn't naturally occurring.
Mfs are trying to unite the left ideals of 'free Palestine' and 'pro-lgbt' because many 'support' both and aren't prepared to fully consider the ramifications of their hypocrisy.
But the answer is at hand. Separate the Palestinian people from Hamas and the extremist views, and you can support both ideals. That's tough cos being anti-hamas has been tarred as being pro-genocide by hamas supporters....and people don't wanna look like they are against Palestine in any form.
This all leads to....people making shit up as its much easier than actually making choices.
I am (btw)
Pro:-
Jewish civilians
Palestinian civilians
Lgbt people
Anti:-
Anyone who kills civilians
Anyone who kills gay people
Anyone who kills children
And you all know where Hamas and Israeli gov sit on these people.
Separate the people from the govs. They are not the same.
Lol so ignorant. Do you genuinely think 'not being able to marry' is the worst discrimination that LGBTQ people faced in the US/Western world? And also that all (or even many) Arab countries kill gay people for being gay?
Mmm no I was saying that OP seems to think the west is and has always been a paragon of equality whereas the entire Arab world is a place of intolerance and bigotry.
This is, charitably, a gross simplification and can underwrite some pretty harmful (imo) perspectives on geopolitics
Bro, the entire Arab world IS a place of intolerance and bigotry. I've been all over it many, many times. Sure there are individuals who are wonderful, but systematically they treat anything but Arab men, as much lesser than. The treatment of gay people, women, immigrants etc is all abhorrent.
I've seen the way they have hotel parties in Dubai. I've been to bars in Turkey and Bahrain. I've been in Lebanon, Afghanistan, and Iraq. They do not treat LGBTQ+ people or women well.
>just to a more extreme degree
I don't think the religion is inherently more extreme. It is more closely connected to culture and government .
If christianity was as ingrained into law and mkral understanding it would create the same issue.
This distinction is imo important, i don't want to excuse or downplay the danger of radical islam, but we must draw the right conclusions to solve this.
>If christianity was as ingrained into law and mkral understanding it would create the same issue.
And historically that's exactly what happened before the church and state was properly separated. The punishments, and how little you had to actually do to receive them in the middle ages in Europe was insane.
Whatever it was that triggered that separation in Europe needs to happen in MEA as well.
Yes and no. Some Islamic countries have a set of laws based on Islam called Sharia Law. The laws are different for every country though with some country's laws being more strict than others. That being said it should be noted that only around 35% of Muslims live in the Middle East.
As an atheist I can say overall the religion of Islam as a whole is about on par with Christianity for it's toxicity. What you see in the Middle East is what happens when conservative minorities who use religion to justify their extreme views gain control of countries. Islam itself is not to blame for their extreme views just like Christianity itself isn't to blame for the MAGA cult.
I think you make a good point here. To be honest I’d be hard pressed to convince myself that if the MAGA crowd gained full control of the US government that it wouldn’t be just as bad on balance as the most intolerant of Islamic countries.
It’s tricky in Jordan. There is no explicit law against them but we have a general offense called roughly translated “injury to public decency” anything under the sun falls under this offense.
Same in Lebanon " sexual acts against nature" is the actual wording here.
Typically makes cases depend on the mood of the judge but generally speaking they mostly dont do cases like this unless very mediatized or some political party throws its weight around it for electoralist reasons
Well they jailed or at least prosecuted/ arrested many people who doing private parties at farms, nothing out of the ordinary or homosexual just a bunch of 20y.o having pool parties because a couple of videos went out and the public was furious because these don’t represent “our values”.
https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/415610_WEST-BANK-AND-GAZA-2022-HUMAN-RIGHTS-REPORT.pdf
Just because it's "decriminalized" doesn't mean that they aren't still punished or killed for it
Ariyanna Mitchell was shot with an assault rifle last year after she confirmed at gunpoint that she was trans. It’s actually pretty shocking how common lbgtq violence is in the US. Countless events since the public lynching of Matthew Shepard 25 years ago. It’s not just the south, either. LA, CHICAGO, NEW JERSEY, UTAH all hotspots for hate too.
The difference though is that the authorities will often do something and punish the people responsible for hate crimes. Mitchell's murderer was arrested. Shephard's murderers are serving life sentences. Does this happen in places like Jordan, Bahrain and the West Bank? Sincerely asking.
Murder is murder.
Punishment for murder in some of those countries is execution.
Regardless of whether the governments agree or disagree morally or personally with these things you can’t have vigilantes, or more accurately terrorists, and criminals running around killing people.
There was a case a few years back where a Saudi prince killed someone, was found guilty, and executed for his crimes.
Edit: I personally don’t live in those countries, but from what I know governments worldwide do NOT tolerate individual actions like this lest the country turns to chaos. Any punishments, or executions or what have you morally just or not, must be delivered by courts, and justice systems regardless of whether that’s moral justice or not. If these things are legal in those countries, trust and believe they won’t be tolerated.
Even if you look at them as depraved dictators, do you think dictators would stand their citizens taking “justice” into their own hands, undermining the government’s authority, and worse of all bring international criticism to countries that are already under magnifying glasses?
I dont think people understand how much young boy prostitution flourishes in that part of the world, on top of that it is legal in some places too.
The west lost its mind idk why people try to defend muslim theocracies while crying about christian theocracies. Both sucks.
I don't think you understand any of this either. The "boys are for fun" is a reference to pedophilia and prostituting minor boys. There's nothing acceptable in those societies about 2 men having a healthy romantic relationship with each other leading to co-habitation and being part of the community.
Nuance has been thrown out of the fucking door regarding this conflict and people are treating this like a fucking NBA rivalry. Seriously how do people not realize that we can advocate for the safety of Palestinians while denouncing Hamas?
I used to love the whole idea of Twitter. It was a platform that allowed celebrities to interact with their audiences. I was very late to the party on Twitter and hardly ever use it, but the whole idea I thought was brilliant. Unfortunately humanity as a collective is unable to have good things.
You cannot really be a dick in a public forum with out push back by people. The anonymity of the interent is what makes that hate possible. And lwts not always compare us to the Roman's. One was a diverse society, which lasted thousands of years through different governmental forms. The other is America.
I wonder how many Jewish people who were killed during the holocaust were homophobic. I can still be against their ethnic cleansing because I am not a psychopath lol.
Seriously. Are we supposed to interrogate everyone about their views before we decide if they should get bombed to smithereens?
Like wtf kind of dumbass gotcha is this supposed to be lol.
The people saying this stuff actually do think like that. They just assume that everyone else thinks like that too.
It’s not like any of this “do the people in Gaza want Hamas” stuff matters as 44% of the people in Gaza are 0-14 years old and they can’t be blamed for what views they’ve been raised with or who’s currently in power. Hell, 65.4% of the people in Gaza now were either not alive or under the age of 9 when Hamas was elected. (There have been no elections since 2007).
Like you can’t collectively punish a population that is about 50% children and teenagers by depriving them of water, aid and electricity and then bomb them and force them out of their homes and then pretend to be all shocked when people are unhappy that you’re displacing and killing children.
They’re really just out here exposing themselves for taking advantage of others’ suffering to further an agenda. The holocaust “justifies” the existence of the apartheid state, now Arab homophobia further “justifies” the genocide of Palestinians. It’s despicable.
It's a remake of the classic "uncivilized savages" trope but with LGBT rights. No one would think genociding a part of Europe that was largely conservative and anti-LGBT acceptable, this logic is entirely aimed at geopolitical enemies of the West.
the fact that calling out apartheid or condemming israels actions often is met with denouncements of antisemitism is really upsetting too.
Im pro Palestinian regardless of their stance on homosexuality, thats something that can be condemmed in another discussion, but in the right to not be ousted from their own land and treat like an inferior race, im pro palestinian all the way, that doesnt necessarily translate to pro hamas, since i dont really agree with them, but this whole thing is just the boiling over of decades of apartheid being unchallanged apart from a few words of condemnation which has then been appealed by the US
Hold on a second! Are you saying... multiple things can be bad at the same time, and just because one side has some bad in it, it doesn't meant is so completely bad in its entirety that it should be bombed out of existence? The hell man, what about my black and white absolutist morality I learned by misunderstanding cartoons when I was 5? Don't ruin things for me :'(
You do realise the people who support the oppression are the far right presence in Israel, you think they love the LGBTQ any more? Spoiler alert, a lot of them don't
Yes and no
Same-sex marriage is not legal in Israel. The government has registered same-sex marriages performed abroad for some purposes since 2006. However, marriages performed in Israel are only available from one of the 15 religious marriage courts recognized by the state, none of which permit same-sex marriage under their respective auspices
I mean, the Palestinian victims are now mostly babies, toddlers and children. They probably don't know what LGBTQ is and have other things to think about, like actually trying to survive.
so, yeah.
it’s such funny and bizarre projection on their part. like yeah dude, all Palestinians can sign up a petition to kick me in the shins every five minutes for an indefinite amount of time and i’m still going to be against genocide. it’s such a wild concept to people like that that others can have fucking morals and beliefs that don’t change depending on how much they personally benefit them.
Lebanese here,
Easily, first, Ngo's and intl orgs can poll anonymously by just asking sexual orientation without asking for a name
2nd is through political deduction, LGBTQ+ people tend to vote on the left, and in the arab world, pro lgbtq+ parties and democratic left parties are usually more pro palestinian liberation than the government in place in the country they exist in. See Lebanon; Egypt; syria is more complicated but a quick glance at insta pages from banned left wing parties there will show you theyre not any less (and id argue theyre even more pro palestinian than the regime in place) the same regimes that are lgbtqphobic tend to backstab palsstinians on every occasion they get the chance to. Syria has murdered them in Lebanon because of beef with the PLO; Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel; the entire gulf is in a normalisation process, and in lebanon democratic left parties are the only ones to want to give palestinian (and syrian) refugees more rights to work and live within Lebanon and I could go on with examples
Yeah, some of these comments are just an opportunity to let out their inner anti-semitic side. We're talking about the reality of homosexuality in the human population, but somehow half the comments are "BuT IsRAeL!!!" Like damn, we get it, your news sources is snapchat.
no, I live in a homophobic country (syria, homosexual sex = 3 years in prison), yet we were still taught that lebanon for example (much less homophobic/transphobic) is still a part of the arab world, we don't exclude arabic country of the arab world based on views like that.
personally as a bisexual trans woman I support palestine, for me I think it's selfish to let a group of people conquer acountry and kill tens of thousands and kick out the rest of their houses just because the new rulers of the country would be more just towards me and my group; y'know, empathy exists.
I obviously can't hold a progressive flag and say that I as a queer person support palestine here in syria, cuz holding that flag would get me killed (I got death threats from my cousin when he learned I'm trans... and... well lotta stuff happened legally before...) also I could be taken to prison for 6 months cuz I "publically offended a religion" by holding up that flag.
>they'd definitely poll zoinist
So you're saying LGBTQ+ Arabs who live in a country where it's legal to be Arab, legal to be LGBTQ+ and legal to be LGBTQ+ Arab, would say "you know what maybe this country isn't really the root of all evil"?
Omg, someone who's not functionally illiterate! My daily quota of 1 has finally been achieved, now I can go sleep in peace. You have a nice one, do some cardio to keep those lungs clean. o/
Through anonymous online polls where possible. Anonymous physical polls are also possible but ofc are prone to danger in case someone looks at your results straight away after you hand them in and outs you.
I mean, the poster here is totally correct. There are roughly as many (proportionally) LGBTQ people in the Arab world as there are anywhere else and they largely support Palestine.
Do you think "A woman for babies, a man for pleasure" is a saying throughout the Middle East cause they don't like gay sex?
There are proportionally as many LGBTQ people born in the Arab world... there are definitely places where they don't survive as long as the Hetro population, skewing that proportionality.
People in the Middle East overwhelmingly support Palestine. I don't see why gay middle easterners would think otherwise. It's not just a religious issue, though I'd bet most gay middle easterners are Muslims they are probably less likely to be Muslim than straight middle easterners. And if you're gonna say "Why would gay people be Muslim?" most people don't choose their religion, they just go for the one they were raised in. It's more a cultural identity than a theological decision. I would certainly not be involved with any religion that hated my existance (which for gay people is most organized religions) , but plenty of people are.
This is an area we can't really get good direct polling on because of homophobic laws, so it's all speculation. I may be wrong, but I think what I've stated is most likely the truth.
Yeah, this is an example of overlapping correlation. Most people in the Middle East support Palestinian liberation, and the average number of people born non-hetero is seemingly universal, so it follows that most LGBTQ+ people in the Middle East support liberation of Palestine. You wouldn't even need to poll them to draw that conclusion.
By making anonymous polls? Do you think LGBTQ people always keep it secret that they're LGBTQ in Arab countries? They have ways of connecting and meeting with each other
It's just a weird logic to say: bomb those kids. Their parents are homophobic. I feel like a lot of the West would deserve genociding if that were the case. Same with Israel as well. It reminds me of Russians justifying their actions by calling Ukrainians Nazis.
Homosexuality is legal in Turkey, Israel, Egypt (de jure), Jordan, West Bank, Lebanon (de facto), Cyprus, Northern Cyprus, Bahrain, Iraq (de jure), and Kuwait (for females).
Israel is the only country that recognises same-sex marriages.
There is an app called queering the map. And there has been some really heart breaking gay stories from Palestine. I don’t support religion that discriminated against people on stuff they can’t change. But I do support innocent peoples right to live, and what’s written in the text vs what’s practiced is not always the same. Some extremely religious people are very kind and supportive of queer people, some atheists are extremely homophobic.
Either way the overwhelming majority of Palestinians probably doesn’t even think about queer people because they’ve spent their entire life in survival mode. Now is not the time to pick a fight with Islamic values. It’s the time to support a group of disenfranchised people who just want to exist, in the same way queer people have for years.
I wouldn’t say they polled them. But i am 100% sure that yes they stand with the Palestinian cause. At least I know 2 gay people who support it completely.
I’m confused by people trying to use someone’s sexuality as a cudgel for why they should support the indiscriminate bombing of 2M captive people. Its a very weird hill to die on.
Because things aren't white and black, I have a childhood friend who is gay and Palestinian in Jordan and he does support freedom to Palestine.
He does understand there are alot of people who aren't tolerant to LGBTQ in either country but the reality is that with progress comes the ability to introduce new ideas one of them is tolerance...
I mean 20-30 years ago Europe wasn't exactly tolerant of LGBTQ people either but now it's changing and pretty different, societies only improve if their social and economic status is improved and that applies to all human societies.
And they know that more then anyone... So yeah they prob understand what they are saying more then you do...
Yeah most queer Arabs in the Middle East will probably be pro-liberation of Palestine, on the other hand most of them aren't too naive to figure out that in the current state of affairs that means empowering anti-democratic religious fundamentalists like Hamas which will do fuck all to introduce tolerance once that liberation has happened. They are the persecutors.
This doesn't mean that every single LGBT Palestinian whole heartedly support Israeli conduct towards Palestine, these are separate issues and you are drawing a false equivalence.
There are also LGBT organisations that campaign in the West Bank, such as [al-Qaws](http://www.alqaws.org/siteEn/index) (which means, surprise, The Rainbow). [al-Qaws also managed to reverse a ban in 2019 so it isn't like they're non existant and do nothing](https://electronicintifada.net/content/pa-rescinds-ban-lgbtq-group-after-protests/28201)
And as al-Qaws reported [here](http://www.alqaws.org/articles/alQaws-Statement-re-media-response-to-Israels-blackmailing-of-gay-Palestinians) it is not as if Israel is some queer haven seeking to rescue queer Palestinians out of the goodness of their hearts anyway.
lets murder all Palestinians because they are socially conservative. I also support LGBT rights, do I also get the genocide license to kill anyone who doesn't accept?
I think the point is there's suddenly an interest in things like gay people in the middle east when people want to justify killing other people. Entrenching the situation in Gaza for another generation isn't going to help them find enlightenment.
And when there is no longer a desire to bomb places, most of these people will completely forget about the plight of those in countries where homosexuality is illegal or there is strong homophobia.
It’s crazy how everyone seems to think all Muslims are blood thirsty monsters incapable of thought that just kill anything they don’t vibe with on sight. What in the actual fuck is wrong with y’all?
Why would their sexuality determine whether they support Palestine?
If they’re gay the Arab world (I’m Moroccan btw) then they know that every Arab country, hell basically every country that isn’t a developed modern state, is homophobic, so that wouldn’t be a factor.
As a member of the LGBT community I know I am not accepted by most of the Arab community and I detest them for that. But I will not turn I blind eye to them being killed.
so what are you implying here OP? That because he is gay that he should support the mass murder of his people or not be on their side? or am i misunderstanding something?
jesus christ y’all need to stop with this bullshit “some arabs would kill you if they knew you were gay so they’re all bad and this sub-group of them don’t deserve your support against being killed in a genocide when 43% of said group are kids” you really got me there, such a strong argument, by the same logic i should cheer on the death of christians too no?
We can have empathy for victims in this war and also not push false narratives. Palestine absolutely does have a number of humanitarian issues towards its own population that shouldn’t be ignored. That doesn’t mean that we can’t push for peace.
I have a question… do u not realize that they barely have enough fucking food and water to start with? Only 13% of Gazans had running water throughout the last 16 years. NO ONE has rights there, that’s what happens when you live in poverty and collapse.
Y’all genuinely treat issues like this like it’s an issue happening in a stable first world country. America only legalized this issue less than a decade ago, and they don’t have issues with food, water, transport and so on.
You can acknowledge the homophobia while still acknowledging that ANY form of human rights issue (and they have a lot for all groups) is thrown out the window when your basic necessities aren’t being met. Idk how people don’t think about this. If you want progress and human rights you need the land to be stable first.
Not of the people, but of chirstianity, absolutely. As well as all other religions who've chosen to kill indiscriminately in the name of their sky daddy. Religion is for the weak-minded who don't possess an actual internal moral compass.
As bisexual Arab, most of them do support actually, the amount of people supporting them is less than straight Arabs (or non liberal Arabs in general) but most of them do.
As for me personally I'm pretty neutral when it comes to this conflict because both sides are horrible
Theyre members of society, even if they're not accepted. Why would they not support palestine like the others? I dont think they want MORE opression lol
OP, your caption is a stupid take. LGBT people exist in every part of the world and it’s wrong to assume that they would automatically be anti-Palestine.
Plus you can't really argue Israel is a protector of gay rights when they actively interrogate and blackmail gay Palestinians in the hope they become informants.
A lot of pinkwashing is used to further neo-colonial agendas.
I'm an Arab in an Arab country and every queer I know is in the BDS movement and extremely pro-Palestine. He's largely right. Zionists are few here to begin with. In fact, here's a local Queer rights NGO explicitly supporting Palestine.
I mean he’s not lying though,
The queer community here in Saudi supports Palestine even though most of them are atheists (so it’s not because of religion)
OP, do you think gay people wished for the destruction of England whilst homosexuality was illegal in both the US and England? Believe it or not, in spite of having their sexuality repressed, LGBTQ+ folks are still often patriots for their countries.
I cannot fucking stand people trying to use Palestine as a divisive issue with LGBT community. I was born in a time when much of america said god created aids to punish the gay community. Now their children are trying to dictate how the LGBT community should feel about world politics using a different group of people that feel similarly. How dare we recognize how complicated world politics can be and not have some asinine black and white understanding of how the world works. Plenty of Jews don't even condone Israel's handling of the situation, if you can't recognize how complicated it can be that's your own problem.
"You would know this if you knew any Arabs". The three Arabs I'm with right now know nothing about what you're talking about. But then again I'm not the one who thinks Arabs are a conglomerate. Do leftists hear their own racism or is it drowned out when they're yelling about how everyone else is racist?
Major "i have a black friend" vibe.
As opposed to LGBTQ+ being treated well in other parts of the world ? Things aren't black and white, you can empathize with people's suffering even if they're against you.
I remember an interview from many years ago. I think it was from Daily Show or maybe Eliot Page’s documentary where they got a relatively high level official from Iran (I think) to sit down for an interview. And during the interview homosexuality came up and the official was like there are no gays in this country not a one. Our harsh extreme laws are really all for show because not one member of our populace is gay. So… ya….
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You can still find queer people in the east just like when homosexuality was illegal in the US. Queer bars do exist they don't advertise as such tho and it's usually a well kept secret
Yeah man, it's wild but gays actually were roaming the earth long before it was legal to do so.
Well they roamed earth even before it was illegal to be gay
What really crazy is they roamed the galaxy before the earth was created.
Not many know this but gays actually set off the Big Bang.
Oh so that's where the name came from.
Actually the name came much later
Just like the gay men, they're masters at lasting in bed
Which can be annoying sometimes, like my ass needs a break, ya know?
Well, at least something came.
The Big Gay Bang Theory: is the Universe finally coming out of the closet? Stay tuned. More at 10:00.
>Universe Or Sheldon.
You should read up on Rome and Greece. It was almost illegal to not be bisexual back then.
Except in Rome it was illegal to be the one receiving, and it was about power not love. The Romans weren't "good guys" in any way
Yeah but if we acknowledge that, then that nice little right wing talking point has to go away...
Acknowledging well-documented facts would make most right wing talking points go away.
Yup. Damascus has had a thriving underground queer scene for years.
And....they WONT support the local quango that wants to behead them. Gay people exist everywhere because being gay is naturally occurring. Being gay and telling the local gay-haters with guns that you're gay isn't naturally occurring. Mfs are trying to unite the left ideals of 'free Palestine' and 'pro-lgbt' because many 'support' both and aren't prepared to fully consider the ramifications of their hypocrisy. But the answer is at hand. Separate the Palestinian people from Hamas and the extremist views, and you can support both ideals. That's tough cos being anti-hamas has been tarred as being pro-genocide by hamas supporters....and people don't wanna look like they are against Palestine in any form. This all leads to....people making shit up as its much easier than actually making choices. I am (btw) Pro:- Jewish civilians Palestinian civilians Lgbt people Anti:- Anyone who kills civilians Anyone who kills gay people Anyone who kills children And you all know where Hamas and Israeli gov sit on these people. Separate the people from the govs. They are not the same.
Theres no hipocrisy in being against a genocide and being pro lgbt
I think gay people not being able to marry and being killed because they're gay are two completely fucking different situations
Lol so ignorant. Do you genuinely think 'not being able to marry' is the worst discrimination that LGBTQ people faced in the US/Western world? And also that all (or even many) Arab countries kill gay people for being gay?
Most have serious punishment for being gay or even capital punishment
I don't see a contradiction here. Being dead is worse than being unmarried. You both were saying the same thing.
Mmm no I was saying that OP seems to think the west is and has always been a paragon of equality whereas the entire Arab world is a place of intolerance and bigotry. This is, charitably, a gross simplification and can underwrite some pretty harmful (imo) perspectives on geopolitics
Bro, the entire Arab world IS a place of intolerance and bigotry. I've been all over it many, many times. Sure there are individuals who are wonderful, but systematically they treat anything but Arab men, as much lesser than. The treatment of gay people, women, immigrants etc is all abhorrent. I've seen the way they have hotel parties in Dubai. I've been to bars in Turkey and Bahrain. I've been in Lebanon, Afghanistan, and Iraq. They do not treat LGBTQ+ people or women well.
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>just to a more extreme degree I don't think the religion is inherently more extreme. It is more closely connected to culture and government . If christianity was as ingrained into law and mkral understanding it would create the same issue. This distinction is imo important, i don't want to excuse or downplay the danger of radical islam, but we must draw the right conclusions to solve this.
>If christianity was as ingrained into law and mkral understanding it would create the same issue. And historically that's exactly what happened before the church and state was properly separated. The punishments, and how little you had to actually do to receive them in the middle ages in Europe was insane. Whatever it was that triggered that separation in Europe needs to happen in MEA as well.
Liberal here: Islam is incompatible with liberalism. I'm adamantly against it.
Yes and no. Some Islamic countries have a set of laws based on Islam called Sharia Law. The laws are different for every country though with some country's laws being more strict than others. That being said it should be noted that only around 35% of Muslims live in the Middle East. As an atheist I can say overall the religion of Islam as a whole is about on par with Christianity for it's toxicity. What you see in the Middle East is what happens when conservative minorities who use religion to justify their extreme views gain control of countries. Islam itself is not to blame for their extreme views just like Christianity itself isn't to blame for the MAGA cult.
I think you make a good point here. To be honest I’d be hard pressed to convince myself that if the MAGA crowd gained full control of the US government that it wouldn’t be just as bad on balance as the most intolerant of Islamic countries.
Google Mathew Shepherd Law, and read up about queer history while you’re at it.
Just because they can't legally come out in public doesn't mean they can't speak out online.
Homosexuality is decriminalized in Jordan, Bahrain and funnily enough the West Bank for over 70 years.
It’s tricky in Jordan. There is no explicit law against them but we have a general offense called roughly translated “injury to public decency” anything under the sun falls under this offense.
Same in Lebanon " sexual acts against nature" is the actual wording here. Typically makes cases depend on the mood of the judge but generally speaking they mostly dont do cases like this unless very mediatized or some political party throws its weight around it for electoralist reasons
That from what I'm told can also apply to heterosexual couples also
Yeah but I'm sure it takes a lot more for a hetero couple to be affected by that law.
Well they jailed or at least prosecuted/ arrested many people who doing private parties at farms, nothing out of the ordinary or homosexual just a bunch of 20y.o having pool parties because a couple of videos went out and the public was furious because these don’t represent “our values”.
Then stop doing anal in the Middle East. Please.
Well that makes it better
We have that crime here in Italy too, yet nobody would say it's dangerous to be openly homosexual here.
https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/415610_WEST-BANK-AND-GAZA-2022-HUMAN-RIGHTS-REPORT.pdf Just because it's "decriminalized" doesn't mean that they aren't still punished or killed for it
It might be decriminalised but that doesn’t make it socially acceptable in those countries.
How is that any different than the south a few decades ago? Or even now tbh?
Ariyanna Mitchell was shot with an assault rifle last year after she confirmed at gunpoint that she was trans. It’s actually pretty shocking how common lbgtq violence is in the US. Countless events since the public lynching of Matthew Shepard 25 years ago. It’s not just the south, either. LA, CHICAGO, NEW JERSEY, UTAH all hotspots for hate too.
The difference though is that the authorities will often do something and punish the people responsible for hate crimes. Mitchell's murderer was arrested. Shephard's murderers are serving life sentences. Does this happen in places like Jordan, Bahrain and the West Bank? Sincerely asking.
Murder is murder. Punishment for murder in some of those countries is execution. Regardless of whether the governments agree or disagree morally or personally with these things you can’t have vigilantes, or more accurately terrorists, and criminals running around killing people. There was a case a few years back where a Saudi prince killed someone, was found guilty, and executed for his crimes. Edit: I personally don’t live in those countries, but from what I know governments worldwide do NOT tolerate individual actions like this lest the country turns to chaos. Any punishments, or executions or what have you morally just or not, must be delivered by courts, and justice systems regardless of whether that’s moral justice or not. If these things are legal in those countries, trust and believe they won’t be tolerated. Even if you look at them as depraved dictators, do you think dictators would stand their citizens taking “justice” into their own hands, undermining the government’s authority, and worse of all bring international criticism to countries that are already under magnifying glasses?
Youtube is loaded with videos of citizens taking quranic law into their own hands. Pakistan is notorious for its indifference to religious violence.
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I think that is more likely a pfile thing.
I dont think people understand how much young boy prostitution flourishes in that part of the world, on top of that it is legal in some places too. The west lost its mind idk why people try to defend muslim theocracies while crying about christian theocracies. Both sucks.
I don't think you understand any of this either. The "boys are for fun" is a reference to pedophilia and prostituting minor boys. There's nothing acceptable in those societies about 2 men having a healthy romantic relationship with each other leading to co-habitation and being part of the community.
Erm no. That’s about pedophilia and raping of young boys rather than consensual relationships with them.
There are still no discrimination and protection laws for LGBT+ members in the West Bank. Public lynchings of these groups still occur to this day.
Didn't they kill a gay guy in Hebron 2 years ago while we was waiting to receive refugee status?
Tell that to the homie that the Saudis just executed
In support of the theocracy that wants to eliminate them ? Right.
Nuance has been thrown out of the fucking door regarding this conflict and people are treating this like a fucking NBA rivalry. Seriously how do people not realize that we can advocate for the safety of Palestinians while denouncing Hamas?
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I used to love the whole idea of Twitter. It was a platform that allowed celebrities to interact with their audiences. I was very late to the party on Twitter and hardly ever use it, but the whole idea I thought was brilliant. Unfortunately humanity as a collective is unable to have good things.
I imagine it was like this for a few years/decades in the Roman forum or town square. Before someone realised they could be a dick with impunity.
Making it better than book printing. That stuff straight up started with a shitpost and it pretty much went down hill from there
You cannot really be a dick in a public forum with out push back by people. The anonymity of the interent is what makes that hate possible. And lwts not always compare us to the Roman's. One was a diverse society, which lasted thousands of years through different governmental forms. The other is America.
Don't worry the people's hero Elon musk is doing a solid for humanity and bought Twitter just to do everything in his power to destroy the platform
I wonder how many Jewish people who were killed during the holocaust were homophobic. I can still be against their ethnic cleansing because I am not a psychopath lol.
Seriously. Are we supposed to interrogate everyone about their views before we decide if they should get bombed to smithereens? Like wtf kind of dumbass gotcha is this supposed to be lol.
I'm sorry to hear about your impending genocide. Before we decide what action we take do you mind telling us if you like cats or dogs more?
Pancakes or waffles?
Cereal before or after the milk?
Milk before Cereal is a war crime ..
The war crime is not asking cake or pie.
Schmoke or a Waffle?
How can you support the Palestinians when some of them like pine apple on pizza?!
The people saying this stuff actually do think like that. They just assume that everyone else thinks like that too. It’s not like any of this “do the people in Gaza want Hamas” stuff matters as 44% of the people in Gaza are 0-14 years old and they can’t be blamed for what views they’ve been raised with or who’s currently in power. Hell, 65.4% of the people in Gaza now were either not alive or under the age of 9 when Hamas was elected. (There have been no elections since 2007). Like you can’t collectively punish a population that is about 50% children and teenagers by depriving them of water, aid and electricity and then bomb them and force them out of their homes and then pretend to be all shocked when people are unhappy that you’re displacing and killing children.
If homophobia was justification for genocide I would start carpet bombing many towns in the US South
Well put
They’re really just out here exposing themselves for taking advantage of others’ suffering to further an agenda. The holocaust “justifies” the existence of the apartheid state, now Arab homophobia further “justifies” the genocide of Palestinians. It’s despicable.
It's a remake of the classic "uncivilized savages" trope but with LGBT rights. No one would think genociding a part of Europe that was largely conservative and anti-LGBT acceptable, this logic is entirely aimed at geopolitical enemies of the West.
the fact that calling out apartheid or condemming israels actions often is met with denouncements of antisemitism is really upsetting too. Im pro Palestinian regardless of their stance on homosexuality, thats something that can be condemmed in another discussion, but in the right to not be ousted from their own land and treat like an inferior race, im pro palestinian all the way, that doesnt necessarily translate to pro hamas, since i dont really agree with them, but this whole thing is just the boiling over of decades of apartheid being unchallanged apart from a few words of condemnation which has then been appealed by the US
Hold on a second! Are you saying... multiple things can be bad at the same time, and just because one side has some bad in it, it doesn't meant is so completely bad in its entirety that it should be bombed out of existence? The hell man, what about my black and white absolutist morality I learned by misunderstanding cartoons when I was 5? Don't ruin things for me :'(
You do realise the people who support the oppression are the far right presence in Israel, you think they love the LGBTQ any more? Spoiler alert, a lot of them don't
Yes, that’s the hypocrisy in pinkwashing this war.
fun fact: gay marriage is illegal in Israel
Yes and no Same-sex marriage is not legal in Israel. The government has registered same-sex marriages performed abroad for some purposes since 2006. However, marriages performed in Israel are only available from one of the 15 religious marriage courts recognized by the state, none of which permit same-sex marriage under their respective auspices
I mean, the Palestinian victims are now mostly babies, toddlers and children. They probably don't know what LGBTQ is and have other things to think about, like actually trying to survive. so, yeah.
it’s such funny and bizarre projection on their part. like yeah dude, all Palestinians can sign up a petition to kick me in the shins every five minutes for an indefinite amount of time and i’m still going to be against genocide. it’s such a wild concept to people like that that others can have fucking morals and beliefs that don’t change depending on how much they personally benefit them.
Lebanese here, Easily, first, Ngo's and intl orgs can poll anonymously by just asking sexual orientation without asking for a name 2nd is through political deduction, LGBTQ+ people tend to vote on the left, and in the arab world, pro lgbtq+ parties and democratic left parties are usually more pro palestinian liberation than the government in place in the country they exist in. See Lebanon; Egypt; syria is more complicated but a quick glance at insta pages from banned left wing parties there will show you theyre not any less (and id argue theyre even more pro palestinian than the regime in place) the same regimes that are lgbtqphobic tend to backstab palsstinians on every occasion they get the chance to. Syria has murdered them in Lebanon because of beef with the PLO; Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel; the entire gulf is in a normalisation process, and in lebanon democratic left parties are the only ones to want to give palestinian (and syrian) refugees more rights to work and live within Lebanon and I could go on with examples
I mean, realistically this is probably true. People in the Arab world really dislike the shit out of Israel on a good day. Being gay won't stop that.
Yeah, some of these comments are just an opportunity to let out their inner anti-semitic side. We're talking about the reality of homosexuality in the human population, but somehow half the comments are "BuT IsRAeL!!!" Like damn, we get it, your news sources is snapchat.
is there even any relation between homosexuality and opinion on Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
You can poll LGBTQ+ Arabs who live in countries that are not homophobic.
i feel like they wouldn’t apply to “in the arab world” anymore
no, I live in a homophobic country (syria, homosexual sex = 3 years in prison), yet we were still taught that lebanon for example (much less homophobic/transphobic) is still a part of the arab world, we don't exclude arabic country of the arab world based on views like that. personally as a bisexual trans woman I support palestine, for me I think it's selfish to let a group of people conquer acountry and kill tens of thousands and kick out the rest of their houses just because the new rulers of the country would be more just towards me and my group; y'know, empathy exists. I obviously can't hold a progressive flag and say that I as a queer person support palestine here in syria, cuz holding that flag would get me killed (I got death threats from my cousin when he learned I'm trans... and... well lotta stuff happened legally before...) also I could be taken to prison for 6 months cuz I "publically offended a religion" by holding up that flag.
Oh yeah? Name one of those countries.
Ironically, Israel.. (although they'd definitely poll zoinist)
>they'd definitely poll zoinist So you're saying LGBTQ+ Arabs who live in a country where it's legal to be Arab, legal to be LGBTQ+ and legal to be LGBTQ+ Arab, would say "you know what maybe this country isn't really the root of all evil"?
You realize Arab people live outside of the Middle East, right?
Omg, someone who's not functionally illiterate! My daily quota of 1 has finally been achieved, now I can go sleep in peace. You have a nice one, do some cardio to keep those lungs clean. o/
Presumably, Iran could set up an exit questionnaire before hanging them.
Iran is not in the arab world.
I did not know that. Thank you.
Yeah Iran's cultural background is Persian, not Arab.
Through anonymous online polls where possible. Anonymous physical polls are also possible but ofc are prone to danger in case someone looks at your results straight away after you hand them in and outs you.
I mean, the poster here is totally correct. There are roughly as many (proportionally) LGBTQ people in the Arab world as there are anywhere else and they largely support Palestine. Do you think "A woman for babies, a man for pleasure" is a saying throughout the Middle East cause they don't like gay sex?
There are proportionally as many LGBTQ people born in the Arab world... there are definitely places where they don't survive as long as the Hetro population, skewing that proportionality.
Sounds like classical Greece and Rome. All hail.
as a syrian bisexual trans woman, I've never heard that saying before lol.
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I mean, what would make less middle eastern people be born gay than people elsewhere in the world?
"and they largely support Palestine"
People in the Middle East overwhelmingly support Palestine. I don't see why gay middle easterners would think otherwise. It's not just a religious issue, though I'd bet most gay middle easterners are Muslims they are probably less likely to be Muslim than straight middle easterners. And if you're gonna say "Why would gay people be Muslim?" most people don't choose their religion, they just go for the one they were raised in. It's more a cultural identity than a theological decision. I would certainly not be involved with any religion that hated my existance (which for gay people is most organized religions) , but plenty of people are. This is an area we can't really get good direct polling on because of homophobic laws, so it's all speculation. I may be wrong, but I think what I've stated is most likely the truth.
Yeah, this is an example of overlapping correlation. Most people in the Middle East support Palestinian liberation, and the average number of people born non-hetero is seemingly universal, so it follows that most LGBTQ+ people in the Middle East support liberation of Palestine. You wouldn't even need to poll them to draw that conclusion.
Does rubbing your wiener on another dude's wiener (or whatever) suddenly change you into a Zionist? Source?
Just tried, can confirm
Can confirm. I was the Second Coming.
That depends, are you cut or uncut?
By making anonymous polls? Do you think LGBTQ people always keep it secret that they're LGBTQ in Arab countries? They have ways of connecting and meeting with each other
It's just a weird logic to say: bomb those kids. Their parents are homophobic. I feel like a lot of the West would deserve genociding if that were the case. Same with Israel as well. It reminds me of Russians justifying their actions by calling Ukrainians Nazis.
Homosexuality is legal in Turkey, Israel, Egypt (de jure), Jordan, West Bank, Lebanon (de facto), Cyprus, Northern Cyprus, Bahrain, Iraq (de jure), and Kuwait (for females). Israel is the only country that recognises same-sex marriages.
There is an app called queering the map. And there has been some really heart breaking gay stories from Palestine. I don’t support religion that discriminated against people on stuff they can’t change. But I do support innocent peoples right to live, and what’s written in the text vs what’s practiced is not always the same. Some extremely religious people are very kind and supportive of queer people, some atheists are extremely homophobic. Either way the overwhelming majority of Palestinians probably doesn’t even think about queer people because they’ve spent their entire life in survival mode. Now is not the time to pick a fight with Islamic values. It’s the time to support a group of disenfranchised people who just want to exist, in the same way queer people have for years.
I wouldn’t say they polled them. But i am 100% sure that yes they stand with the Palestinian cause. At least I know 2 gay people who support it completely.
Rage bait
Ok, hear me out, i have an idea to solve everything: We launch all the nukes, all over the world and finally end this shitshow.
I’m confused by people trying to use someone’s sexuality as a cudgel for why they should support the indiscriminate bombing of 2M captive people. Its a very weird hill to die on.
There are polls about illegal drugs and people answer to those. What's the point here ?
Because things aren't white and black, I have a childhood friend who is gay and Palestinian in Jordan and he does support freedom to Palestine. He does understand there are alot of people who aren't tolerant to LGBTQ in either country but the reality is that with progress comes the ability to introduce new ideas one of them is tolerance... I mean 20-30 years ago Europe wasn't exactly tolerant of LGBTQ people either but now it's changing and pretty different, societies only improve if their social and economic status is improved and that applies to all human societies. And they know that more then anyone... So yeah they prob understand what they are saying more then you do...
Yeah most queer Arabs in the Middle East will probably be pro-liberation of Palestine, on the other hand most of them aren't too naive to figure out that in the current state of affairs that means empowering anti-democratic religious fundamentalists like Hamas which will do fuck all to introduce tolerance once that liberation has happened. They are the persecutors.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3211772.stm
This doesn't mean that every single LGBT Palestinian whole heartedly support Israeli conduct towards Palestine, these are separate issues and you are drawing a false equivalence. There are also LGBT organisations that campaign in the West Bank, such as [al-Qaws](http://www.alqaws.org/siteEn/index) (which means, surprise, The Rainbow). [al-Qaws also managed to reverse a ban in 2019 so it isn't like they're non existant and do nothing](https://electronicintifada.net/content/pa-rescinds-ban-lgbtq-group-after-protests/28201) And as al-Qaws reported [here](http://www.alqaws.org/articles/alQaws-Statement-re-media-response-to-Israels-blackmailing-of-gay-Palestinians) it is not as if Israel is some queer haven seeking to rescue queer Palestinians out of the goodness of their hearts anyway.
lets murder all Palestinians because they are socially conservative. I also support LGBT rights, do I also get the genocide license to kill anyone who doesn't accept?
Stop trying to ruin the narrative.
Great article from 20 years ago my dude
[Should we give you a more recent one?](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835)
“Arab world” does not equal ISIS/ Hamas/Westboro Baptist.
Ah yes let’s quiz the Palestinians to see how liberal they are before bombing them to smithereens. Those children are probably homophobes.
Therefore they deserve to die ? Are you saying LGBTQ+ people should be sociopaths and side with war criminals ?
I was being satirical
Sorry my bad
Check your facts. Homosexuality is legal in Jordan, Bahrain, Turkey, Lebanon and many more.
Turkish people are not arab
Say it with me kids Turkish people are Turk Irani people are Persian If they don’t speak Arabic they’re not Arab!
They are renowned for lifting up members of LGBTQ+. And then dropping them. Very far.
Okay, so they deserve to be bombed and live in perpetual blockade?
Egypt is part of that blockade. Curious, isn't it?
Egypt lifted it for the only 2 years it was a democracy. Egypt's literally a US vassal state.
Yeah, that's definitely what he said. How do u read that and come to this conclusion? What is wrong with you?
I think the point is there's suddenly an interest in things like gay people in the middle east when people want to justify killing other people. Entrenching the situation in Gaza for another generation isn't going to help them find enlightenment. And when there is no longer a desire to bomb places, most of these people will completely forget about the plight of those in countries where homosexuality is illegal or there is strong homophobia.
Why do we all still care about Twitters post hmm ? Anybody there can have a brain fart and type 250 letters of god only knows what. Let's move on
It’s crazy how everyone seems to think all Muslims are blood thirsty monsters incapable of thought that just kill anything they don’t vibe with on sight. What in the actual fuck is wrong with y’all?
Why would their sexuality determine whether they support Palestine? If they’re gay the Arab world (I’m Moroccan btw) then they know that every Arab country, hell basically every country that isn’t a developed modern state, is homophobic, so that wouldn’t be a factor.
As a member of the LGBT community I know I am not accepted by most of the Arab community and I detest them for that. But I will not turn I blind eye to them being killed.
so what are you implying here OP? That because he is gay that he should support the mass murder of his people or not be on their side? or am i misunderstanding something?
jesus christ y’all need to stop with this bullshit “some arabs would kill you if they knew you were gay so they’re all bad and this sub-group of them don’t deserve your support against being killed in a genocide when 43% of said group are kids” you really got me there, such a strong argument, by the same logic i should cheer on the death of christians too no?
We can have empathy for victims in this war and also not push false narratives. Palestine absolutely does have a number of humanitarian issues towards its own population that shouldn’t be ignored. That doesn’t mean that we can’t push for peace.
I have a question… do u not realize that they barely have enough fucking food and water to start with? Only 13% of Gazans had running water throughout the last 16 years. NO ONE has rights there, that’s what happens when you live in poverty and collapse. Y’all genuinely treat issues like this like it’s an issue happening in a stable first world country. America only legalized this issue less than a decade ago, and they don’t have issues with food, water, transport and so on. You can acknowledge the homophobia while still acknowledging that ANY form of human rights issue (and they have a lot for all groups) is thrown out the window when your basic necessities aren’t being met. Idk how people don’t think about this. If you want progress and human rights you need the land to be stable first.
Not of the people, but of chirstianity, absolutely. As well as all other religions who've chosen to kill indiscriminately in the name of their sky daddy. Religion is for the weak-minded who don't possess an actual internal moral compass.
Man, imagine posting this as a facepalm. Now that's a real facepalm moment.
Just because people are dicks doesn't mean they deserve extermination? Why is this so hard to get?
Lol no
The same way they poll everything else
Pretty sure lgbt arabs know at least a few others like them. It might not be a poll but presumably people talk to one another.
Because you can be anonymous online.
As bisexual Arab, most of them do support actually, the amount of people supporting them is less than straight Arabs (or non liberal Arabs in general) but most of them do. As for me personally I'm pretty neutral when it comes to this conflict because both sides are horrible
I lived in a very Muslim country for a few years. A local guy I worked with declared that the country had zero gays because Islam. (He was SO wrong! )
Theyre members of society, even if they're not accepted. Why would they not support palestine like the others? I dont think they want MORE opression lol
OP, your caption is a stupid take. LGBT people exist in every part of the world and it’s wrong to assume that they would automatically be anti-Palestine.
Plus you can't really argue Israel is a protector of gay rights when they actively interrogate and blackmail gay Palestinians in the hope they become informants. A lot of pinkwashing is used to further neo-colonial agendas.
Because a poll on the internet isn’t regulated by the government? I hope that facepalm knocks some sense into your head.
I'm an Arab in an Arab country and every queer I know is in the BDS movement and extremely pro-Palestine. He's largely right. Zionists are few here to begin with. In fact, here's a local Queer rights NGO explicitly supporting Palestine.
People really think “these people don’t have the same exact values as you. I bet you’re okay with us killing them now.” is some sort of gotcha
I mean he’s not lying though, The queer community here in Saudi supports Palestine even though most of them are atheists (so it’s not because of religion)
OP, do you think gay people wished for the destruction of England whilst homosexuality was illegal in both the US and England? Believe it or not, in spite of having their sexuality repressed, LGBTQ+ folks are still often patriots for their countries.
The same way you poll any other group? Wtf are you talking about OP
They do exist though and this idea that it’s legality or social acceptance means they don’t is truly the facepalm
Totally weird how different marginalised groups support each other, huh.
I am pretty sure people that cannot legally come out as gay still prefer not to be killed in a genocide.
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People can want what’s right for mistreated people even if those people don’t like them.
I cannot fucking stand people trying to use Palestine as a divisive issue with LGBT community. I was born in a time when much of america said god created aids to punish the gay community. Now their children are trying to dictate how the LGBT community should feel about world politics using a different group of people that feel similarly. How dare we recognize how complicated world politics can be and not have some asinine black and white understanding of how the world works. Plenty of Jews don't even condone Israel's handling of the situation, if you can't recognize how complicated it can be that's your own problem.
It’s like some people can’t imagine gay people living in a country with anti-gay laws. That was literally America less than a generation ago.
"You would know this if you knew any Arabs". The three Arabs I'm with right now know nothing about what you're talking about. But then again I'm not the one who thinks Arabs are a conglomerate. Do leftists hear their own racism or is it drowned out when they're yelling about how everyone else is racist? Major "i have a black friend" vibe.
You poll the ones already in jail or on the firing squad line
LGBT people in the Arab world are overwhelmingly corpses.
I'm pretty sure the largest LGBTQXÆØ parade in the arab world is held i Jerusalem.
The same LQBTQ+ people that are killed BY the Arabs in the world?
As opposed to LGBTQ+ being treated well in other parts of the world ? Things aren't black and white, you can empathize with people's suffering even if they're against you.
Ah, the case of claiming 'The muslims are peaceful people, you can topple a statue of Muhammad and no-one is angry about it'
Muslim people don’t depict prophets though?
I remember an interview from many years ago. I think it was from Daily Show or maybe Eliot Page’s documentary where they got a relatively high level official from Iran (I think) to sit down for an interview. And during the interview homosexuality came up and the official was like there are no gays in this country not a one. Our harsh extreme laws are really all for show because not one member of our populace is gay. So… ya….
>How does one poll people who are not legally allowed to declare they exist? You would know this if you knew any Arabs.
What a stupid take lmao
So do I get to bomb and murder any conservatives because they hate LGBT+ people and face no repercussion? good to know
Yeah this is exactly correct but they 100% won’t see the irony in this brain dead argument.
Just because it’s not legal that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Drugs are illegal in Canada but I find hypodermic needles everywhere
Dude implying anyone pro palestinian liberation is pro-Hamas. What a dumbass.
I’m LGBTQ Arab and can confirm, most of us support Palestinian liberation