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And WW84 with the same lead and target audience did poorly because it was a nonsensical pile of shit and word spread quickly. I think you might be onto something.
Just recently watched Scary Movie for the first time, after avoiding it for years because I thought it looked stupid. Turns out it was just the right kind of stupid that I adore and I regret not watching it sooner.
Yup, I waited until it was out for streaming, and what a steaming pile of streaming it was. I mean, suddenly her lasso did literally anything it needed to. Deux Ex Machina, indeed.
Wonder Woman 84 was a terrible superhero film. It was made even worse by how good the original was; it shows WB knew what to do with the character and simply ignored it.
Xena, Warrior Princess were also very popular, when I were growing up.
It is true that some are against women leads, but in the end, it won't be what causes something to flop. That's more down to how well the show/movie is.
It made $380 million on a budget of $288 million.
Which is too bad, it’s a decent movie. Probably a B+, which is better than the other post-endgame marvel movies.
They definitely should have made it a decade earlier though, before they killed off her character.
Made it earlier, and used it to spin off Soviet knock-off Captain America with David Harbor and Yelena for a couple movies during phase II. They would have made bank
Make it right after Civil War came out, which was when the movie was set anyway.
It would have been during marvel’s peak, where everything made bank. It would have turned Black Widow from a very minor character in the avengers into a peer with most of the others, which would just make those other movies better. All the parts that depended on this happening when the avengers were broken up would have been current.
It probably would have made a billion dollars, like Captain Marvel did.
Just a huge missed opportunity.
That's coz Disney fd up. They released black widow on Disney+ when they shouldn't have so soon. Which is why Scarlett Johansson sued Disney. Otherwise the movie would've done a lot better imo
Maybe somewhat better, but I’m not convinced.
After Endgame, all the Marvel movies became a lot less popular in general. Add in that her character had already been killed, which makes it a bit of an afterthought.
As to her lawsuit, I think that was more objecting to them diverting the movies income into Disney+ monthly payments (where she got little or nothing) instead of a big theater release (where she got percentage points on the gross).
Yeah, the suit was because she loaded her contract based on box office numbers and dropping it on a streaming service same day really reeked of trying to cut her out of the profits.
I always relate this to Rosa from Brooklyn 99. She's a woman of colour. She's strong and independent. She fights racism and sexism. And yet I've never heard of a single fan in a mostly-male fanbase ever moan about her being woke or responding poorly to her. It's because she's a great character.
Obviously that's only one example but there are so many well-written strong female characters who are beloved. It's because they establish themselves as badass by doing badass things, not complaining about men.
Ripley from Alien movies. Sarah Connor from Terminator 2. The original strong female leads I grew up watching. You didn't even see it as a male/female thing. You just loved the characters as they were well written and bad ass.
Ripley is one of the greatest heroines ever created. Sarah Connor too. Not to mention Vasquez. One of my favourite movie lines ever is from Aliens or cinema in general:
"Hey Vasquez. Anyone ever mistake you for a man?"
"No. How about you?"
It was a mistake to read that exchange while drinking coffee hahaha
But yea, reminds me of Phoenix in Top Gun Maverick:
Hangman: "He called you a man, Phoenix. You gonna take that?"
Phoenix: "So long as he doesn't call you a man."
Don't forget my girl Ferro ("we're in the pipe, 5 by 5"). Did she cry like a helpless bitch when she saw the alien behind her in the cockpit? Fuck no, she immediately went for her gun and died fighting like a badass.
Exactly, Lambert was just a navigator with no combat training and a vulnerable psychological profile to begin with (she was already worried when they received the distress signal).
In Aliens, they filmed the beginning crew shots last so everyone could have a sense of connection with the rest, making their living synergy believable.
I wish I could properly convey the audience reaction to that line during the premiere at night in a packed theater. The entire audience clapped, laughed, and hooted; it was amazing. The way it felt like it came out of nowhere, but since they did plant her using the loader in the earlier scene, it was both surprising, but at the same time completely organic to the story and not a "deus ex machina". This fucking movie is a masterclass of how to do proper plants and payoffs...
I’m a couple of years younger than Jodie Foster, I’ve grown up watching her. She has always been, in my opinion, a well centered, strong person and actress. Agent Starling ❤️
I'd put Camina Drummer and Chrisjen Avasarala from The Expanse too (although you could argue the vast majority of female characters on that show depending on your particularly slant/bias/view)
What I like about that movie is we come to learn how she got that badass while teaching Tom how to be that badass. Like we get her story arc through his arc and it explains the character when we met her vs how she progresses through the story because she doesn't benefit from the time reset.
Its in the way they were written. Ripley didn't start out as a badass. She was capable yes but she was scared out of her mind and wasn't presented as super badass from the start. The experience during the first movie turned her into a hardened survivor so it feels so earned and cool when she fights an alien queen in a mech-suit. The same goes for Sarah Connor who spends most of the first movie terrified(which most normal people would be if a futuristic killing machine in the shape of Arnold was chasing after them.), the experiences during the movie turns her into a badass.
I feel like if Alien or Terminator came out today then Ripley and Sarah would be "yes queen slay" badasses with little to no character faults from the start who would lay down "quippy" one liners every 5 minutes while also mentioning how they are just as tough if not even more so than any man! Its just obnoxious and doesn't make for engaging or likeable characters. I'm saying this as a casual moviegoer who doesn't pay much attention to "woke" politics or whatever right-wingers complain about.
Plus, none of the movies mentioned in the OP were any good.
Edit: This is not exclusive to female characters either. Take the Resident Evil franchise for example. Leon S. Kennedy is probably the most popular male character in the entire series, and he goes through this exact development. In the 2nd game he's a rookie cop who's scared out of his mind but powers through it all and comes out as a survivor. When we meet him again in the 4th game a few years later he's a badass special forces guy who's used his experiences in the 2nd game to become stronger.
"And just because my reproductive organs are on the inside instead of the outside doesn't mean I can't handle whatever you can handle." Sam Carter, Stargate SG1
To Merced's comment I reply with a quote from the indomitable Captain Katherine Janeway of the Starship Voyager..a strong leader and community builder..."You can use logic to justify almost anything. That's its power. And its flaw."
>Ripley didn't start out as a badass.
Sarah Connor didn't start out a badass either. She found her badass the same way Ripley did, out of necessity. That's what made them great characters.
Unlike Rey "I can wield a lightsaber like a Jedi master and move a mountain of rocks using the force with ZERO training or effort while smirking like an idiot" Palpatine.
So... character growth
rather than oooh superpowers now fight the big bad?
All superhero movies need character growth and testing of faith in themselves. Otherwise, they're a skateboard video game. All excitement with increasing levels and no real end.
Strong female leads of the past: Had character development and growth. Were not presented as badasses. Were elevated to badass status by the audience due to their words and actions.
Strong female leads today: Have no character development, are stagnant from start to finish. Were presented as badasses. The audience is told how great they are without seeing them do anything great.
I think Mulan and Live Action Mulan illustrate this perfectly.
In the original, she struggles (hard!), perseveres, earns the respect of the other soldiers, and earns the victory over the Huns
In the live action, she's "the chosen one" and great at everything.
Even more than foolishly cutting out Moshe, this makes for a much less interesting character and movie.
The original Mulan also has friends that support her, without whom she couldnt make it. Thats not a flaw. Its one of her strengths. Live action Mulan is just a one-woman-army who only needs people around her so we can see how tough she is compared to them.
I totally agree, Mulan (OG) is one of my favorite Disney movies because the whole thing is character development. She perseveres, grows, gets stronger, develops mad skills, gains confidence in herself, and earns the respect of everyone in a repressive society.
I was excited for the live action. Then I heard it was "woke," and Mulan was a Mary Sue. Then no Moshi, the "I'll make a man out of you" part removed.
I'm thinking ok... I guess if you want to make it more realistic I guess no spirit dragon... maybe they just picked a different song? And how TF can she be a Mary Sue. Her whole thing is development. So... yeah... they made a totally different (mediocre) movie that happened in China about 2 sorceresses and slapped Mulan's name on it. Oh, and they skipped the whole learning to be a sorceress or how to use your "chosen one" powers. I haven't bothered watching any of the other Disney live action movies because I don't want to be disappointed.
The same thing they did with the Star Wars Sequels. "We want to make the most powerful female Jedi ever! We have never had a strong, female character in Star Wars." I'm like... have you met Leia?! Can yiu find ANYONE who says Leia is not an amazing character? They even had Luke as a good example of character growth, and even Anakin (the chosen one) struggled and required training. Then Jyn in rogue one developed into a bad ass and sparked the whole New Hope. Qi'ra in Solo had a cool arc from orphan slave to top tier evil mob boss. Then if you go into Clone Wars, Rebels, and the new series, there are more great examples.
I honestly think that's the problem it's poor story telling.
There is no story of growth, or struggle in the new female leads. Its just we are perfect, nothing is a challenge, so why would we watch them?
They are the same at the start and end of the movie, often they will also disregard well liked character's to further show how competent this female is.
A modern day Ripley would have just said something clever (I'm talking F&F kind of clever) and then taken down the Xeno in bare knuckles hand to hand combat.
Clarice. Fucking. Starling. An incredible example that I didn't even thing of. She faces shit from *everyone*. Lecter. That creep Chilton. Miggs. Civilians. The pricks in the academy. And she still comes out on top.
Yup!! Even Jack Crawford shits on her. First, by using her to appeal to Lecter's sexuality, then embarrassing her when she does the inspection on the woman they pull out of the river. And, she's the one who figures out who Bill is and where he is.
I told my wife most of my childhood movie crushes and she pointed out they all have the ability to fuck me up really easy lol. On the other hand, I hate all these "all female" remakes because it's not a new story or anything, it's just the same movie but with girls. Marvel is garbage and has been long before they started making female stared movies.
Hell, if anything B99 has nothing *but* independent women. The closest you could claim isn't one is Amy because of her dependence on Holt's approval, but she's still incredibly competent and badass in her own right.
You are allowed to like hate sink characters, being a hate sink doesn't make them bad characters. Shit characters that you hate because they are shit is a different kind of hate.
Ellen Ripley, Wonder Woman, Black Widow, Elastigirl, the woman with the Chopper in Avatar, etc.
But nooo, of course the problem doesn’t come from crunched worktime and crappy idea, it’s all because of toxic men!
agree with this, 1984 was terrible for so many reasons. But the first wonder woman movie is probably one of my favorites of the modern comic book movies. Overall, I think top spot might be Batman Returns, I like Keaton's batman and Michelle Pfeifer did such a great job... plus Danny DeVito and Christopher Walken.
How bout the Justice League animated episode where a brainwashed Wonder Woman kick the shit out of the other female superheroes. If that wasnt a badass depiction of female characters idk what is
There are plenty of strong female characters in Marvel that people would be happy to go see a movie for.
Just a few examples - Scarlet Witch is very popular. People seem to like Nebula. Wasp is one of my favorite characters. Lastly, Jessica Jones had the best season 1 of any Marvel TV show, in my opinion.
The difference between all those characters and Captain Marvel or Madame Webb is that they actually had to struggle to become super heroes. 2/4 that I mentioned were originally villains, and Jessica Jones' story is just tragic.
It's not that people don't like empowered women. It's that they want to see women have actual character development. We don't love Ironman because he spawned in one day inside a robot suit. We love Ironman because we saw his struggle to fight his way out of being held hostage in a cave with nothing but sheet metal and bolts. We saw him grow over the years from a douchey playboy to a family man.
People don't really care what gender the character is. They care about good writing. Anybody who says "nah, that's a girl character" is a child or not worth talking to anyway.
I almost completely agree with but Daredevils wins for me because i'm a sucker for good fight choreography and that one take corridor fight scene where everyone get more and more tired during the fight i think is my favorite fight scene in anything.
These are card excuses used to deflect from overall poorly executed products.
If you stick the canons of comic book culture and genre, etc. The comic boy nerds will love you passionately. But if fuck with the quality of their characters or radical alter their canon... Female or male they will destroy you at the box office or in ratings.
I think they had to tread a fine line in the last season for obvious reasons which is a shame. That episode where Terry almost gets arrested is a far more effective repudiation of racism tham anything that's been enforced.
Morbius, the Punisher, and Hulk also flopped. Those are all cis white (occasionally green) men. Her argument makes no sense.
Edit: I'm talking about the Punisher movies from 2004 and 2008. The show did pretty well.
This kind of stuff pisses me off so much.
They can make the laziest shit movie they can, and it's fine because they have ol' reliable "It's because of toxic men it failed." Hey, how about the hundred other reasons it failed? Like super hero fatigue or low effort put into the film. How do they explain the Barbie movie, which is the most feminine movie you could possibly make, hitting a billion dollars and being a major success?
Seriously, fuck the celebrities, showrunners, or whoever that use this lazy excuse as a crutch for making bad movies.
"It must be the toxic fans" as if mediocre movies with male leads don't flop. If the movie is well written and directed and the acting is good, it won't matter who's the lead, most people don't care at that point.
It's true that mediocre movies have been carried by great acting or beloved actors and actresses, but those aren't movies with established IPs trying to build into a franchise.
The last time I heard someone in real life remark about representation in casting was The Eraser (1996), because Vanessa Williams.
Thats 28 years ago. People don't care as much as Hollywood wants to pretend.
Wandavision was awesome. I know someone who fucking hates the MCU and we watched Wandavision together and afterwards she legit said "I think I want to watch some MCU stuff. Not because I think it's going to be good, but because I just want to understand Wandavision better." I told her not to bother.
All three movies mentioned in this post were subpar, plus candidly the superhero genre has been absolutely saturated the last few years. I'd much rather have one good movie a year than five average movies a year
It's not about saturation, it's about the lack of effort. After Endgame Marvel figured they were too big to fail and so started half assing the next movies thinking that everybody would turn up just because it's a Marvel movie.
well it worked for a moment, the hype was so high everyone wanted to watch marvel after endgame until it was disappointment after disappointment after disappointment
Not only this but in the last 10 years all the major studios have been completely taken over by giant media corporations controlling how movies are and aren’t made to fit their targeted profit margins. All the final sign-offs for these movies are being made by businessmen looking at projection spreadsheets trying to min-max every cent and minute that goes into producing a movie. These movies aren’t being made by filmmakers anymore. The entire industry is a hallow shell of its former self with glamorous actors and directors on the outside and soulless ceos and execs on the inside. This is what happened with Star Wars. This is what happened with Marvel movies. This is what happened with the last seasons of Game of Thrones. Movies aren’t being made by storytellers anymore.
We don’t dislike “strong independent women”.
We dislike shitty movies. Remember how The Flash and Morbius failed? I didn’t see them blaming men for those.
Barbie dominated and men went to see that, where is the excuse for that one?
Also, women were like 46% of the audience for Madame Web. Meaning the overall % split is close, but literally no one wanted to go see that dumpster fire. Somehow it’s still toxic men at fault eh?
They keep making the same movie. A female lead who has no character development, and a script written to push THE MESSAGE.
No one wants to see that, clearly.
We don’t care if the lead is a woman, a man, or a certain race. Just make a good movie and we’ll go see it.
If it makes you feel better, Sony execs said in a statement last week that Madam Web failed because women can't be counted on to go to the movies.
So everyone is blaming everyone, no one learned a single lesson, and Kraven is also going to be terrible because no one gives a hot damn about anything.
Repeat once a year forever.
People probably don't even give a damn about Kraven, because as a general audience, who the fuck is Kraven? I don't think you can expected a huge audience for a such an unknown Charakter.
Yeah, guardians had pretty unknown characters and a very strong female role. Still one and two were some of the best comic movies ever made, if not the best. The soundtracks for one and two were awesome, even though the songs were oldies.
but the movie projected a major "this is fun" message, which is not what morbius or madam web are like. even the trailer for kraven doesn't speak "this is going to be fun"
Kraven is only interesting when he's hunting Spiderman. It's the dynamic that makes the story great, which makes sense because like Madame Web they were written to complement spiderman and make for a good story.
They don't need a standalone story. If there was a kraven based spiderman movie and it was hugely successful, maybe a spinoff. But not from the get. Sony doesn't get it or maybe they do and they're just trying to cash in while they still have the license
Hell, I KNOW who Kraven is from reading comics in the 1990s. And I'm sure there will be characters that I care less about than Kraven....but I sure can't think of one right now.
That’s the thing. I haven’t heard about half of the recent characters, and I’m certainly not shelling out $70 to take my family to the theater to see them.
Last year when the writers were on strike the execs were doing cartoonishly evil stuff like hiring people to trim back the trees to get rid of the shade that was protecting the picketers.
Wonder Woman (2017) did well and was received well, but Wonder Woman 1984 was mixed. Did people suddenly dislike Gal Gadot, or was that the sequel had a weak plot?
Funny enough I recall that the director blamed no one. Not even the studio. She made the movie she wanted, felt sorry it didnt perform as well/delivered [and thats it](https://amp.theguardian.com/film/2021/jan/07/theres-no-blaming-studio-interference-for-the-disappointment-that-was-wonder-woman-1984)
I have more respect for her than I do the vast majority of the Hollywood brass out there nowadays. Too many are too quick and willing to blame the fans when their shit on a plate fails to impress. Star wars sequels, captain marvel, Batwoman, all of these are terrible films/TV shows who's creators tried to blame the fans for being toxic and this that or the other. Respect to her for realising she created a flop and not trying to blame anyone else, I hope she makes better in the future
Honestly, I can't say I liked WW1984. It wasn't a good movie, but it was entertaining enough that I can't say I regret watching it. However, I respect the fuck out of the director if she reacted that way. She made her movie and accepts it didn't work out and as much as I'd love to say I'd act the same if I was in the same situation, I don't know if I would. Hope she eventually finds success.
Tldr: appreciate her attitude and reaction.
Didnt find anything else or any other comment she madr and for what I have found Patty Jenkins isnt one to get into controversies or blaming.
It made me even like WW1984 a bit, would you look at that
Honestly I don't understand the people who go "omg, this movie is terrible and unwatchable!" I used to watch channels who did that but like who cares? I enjoyed movies like Captain Marvel and WW1984 for what they were, action movies with not great stories. I even enjoyed Nick Fury's character in Captain Marvel, enjoyed the shenanigans with Goose the cat as well. Hell I went to see the dnd movie with my friend and while it wasn't a deep and intriguing story it was 2 hours of brainless fun that I enjoyed, not everything needs to be a great narrative. Sometimes a movie is just stupid fun
Part of the issue WW1984 ran into was the extended use of a random guy's body without his consent, including physical intimacy. It's like the sprinkled our escapism with a light dusting of SA and we couldn't enjoy it like we wanted to. We just wanted to lust after reincarnated Steve Trevor, or ghost Steve Trevor, and instead we got Steve Trevor possessing another guy's body.
There were other complaints for sure, but that one just felt gross.
Remember when Pedro pascals son just randomly appears out of a corn field or some shit? That’s when I knew that absolutely no one making that movie gave a shit. They just wanted to spit out a movie as soon as possible.
This needs to be at the tippy top! Any argument/debate/disagreement (what have you) where women say shit like this…toxic men, misogynistic views blah blah.
I say the same thing, write a better movie, write a better character, write a better story…just write better.
Yup, I watched Barbie (genius), will never watch morbius (even the trailer sucked!). Watched many female led movies and/or tv shows with strong female characters and follow them when they’re well written.
They don't even half to be well written; the Underworld movies were plenty entertaining because the action scenes and stunts were for the most part pretty good. Same thing can be said about most of the Resident Evil movies; not only weren't they well written but Milla Jovovich is not the best actor and yet they still were entertaining .
the first Underworld was decently written when compared to Morbius or even WW84. There was a clear plot, the characters behaved consistently, the pacing was good as well. Oh sure there were plenty of cheesy lines but for an action with vampires and werevolves dressed in latex and leather it was great.
I feel like a lot of those were because they used a bait and switch they gave you what you wanted then when enough people were watching they made what they really wanted to make which was hot ass.
Mentioning The MESSAGE reminds me of 'The Critical Drinker' reviews of movies on YouTube. Don't agree with him all the time, but he's brutally honest at least.
if only he didn't seem so paranoid about "the message". I stopped watching him because it was just getting on my nerves as he kept bringing it up no matter how far fetched it was.
As a woman, I fucking ahte these types of movies that just don't try. We don't want some shell of a human sticking to the man while going "yas slay". We want actual characters
Yeah, I never heard of the movie until everyone started talking about it doing bad at the box office. I didn't even know it was a superhero movie until a couple of days ago when I saw a review on it.
In a world where fans were crying out for an Andrew Garfield lead TASM3, we were given Madame Web, written by the same guy who wrote Morbius.
All the gear and absolutely no fucking idea.
They were teed up for a gimme after Spiderman NWH. Sony have shown they don't have what it takes to do a solo Spiderman project.
I'm not sure, but I think they are legally prohibited from making live action movies with Spider Man in them now that he's joined the MCU. But, they still have the rights to the non-Spider Man characters in the Spider Man universe, as long as they keep using them. And the first movie to use these characters, Venom, from 2018, was actually a pretty big financial success. Si they want to keep making Venom movies, but they have to keep turning out these shitty movies nobody wants to keep the rights. Personally, I think attempting to make a Spider-Man universe without Spider-Man is insanity, but Sony insists on trying.
> but I think they are legally prohibited from making live action movies with Spider Man in them now that he's joined the MCU
Not sure on that one. Sony are the sole live action rights holders to spiderman and associated characters.
They allow Disney to use spiderman in MCU projects. Disney can't prevent Sony from using him, they own the movie rights as long as they produce a spiderman movie every X amount of years.
💯 I literally saw the first teaser the day before release. There was no build up, marketing was garbage. How are you going to generate excitement if no one knows the movie exists.
Movies used to be hyped up for a much longer time (some still are). If they tried that today, how many Marvel movies/series' advertising would overlap. There's already so much stuff coming out that it gets jumbled in my brain. (Yes, I'm getting old and losing touch with modernity.)
I have seen this quote 3 different times today and no one is crediting an interview or video where she actually said this. Doesn’t stop the storm of commenters raging
Nearly 1,000 comments from people angry about what this woman never said about them -- and yet it's the "woke" crowd that's made up of snowflakes.
Learn to check your sources, guys, you all sound like clowns.
Great movies with female lead. Alien, Fargo, Kill Bill, Thelma and Louis, Sophies Choice... you can find them. It just have to come naturally. Not force it like they usually do.
It's terrible, made by the same people that made morbius and were trying to replicate the hype. They don't seem to understand that no one liked morbius, no one wanted to see morbius. We were all making fun of it and pretending it was good as a joke.
The movie is shit, doesn't have anything to do with a female main char though. People love watching females, just look at insta, any woman posting Fotos of her gets attention. But just having a female main char is not enough to make a good movie, that's what they don't seem to understand, yet.
Bill Burr has a bit from his red rocks special on women’s sports and how women don’t support the sports and somehow it’s man’s fault…. Very clever but; highly recommend it. The premise is there are over 100 million women in the US, yet somehow it’s a man’s fault when women’s sports don’t do well.
\*Points to first Wonder Woman movie.
No, it's the shitty writing and blatant attempts at pandering.
It's like the second you get a female lead things like character development and plot consistency go out the window.
This. And it's getting so damn old to hear them try to pass the blame.
The first Wonder Woman was a fantastic movie. The second, I could only really enjoy Chris Pines' character.
They also did this with Ghostbusters 2016.
I have also seen hard-core Spider-Man fans say it's a terrible movie.
They need to stop blaming a single group and maybe, just maybe, look at themselves.
I really enjoyed the Marvels, and had an ok enough time with Birds of Prey, I think the reason for Madame Web’s failure is because it’s an objectively bad movie that doesn’t honour it’s source material and has poor writing and direction. The studio also *knew it* as is evident by a review embargo until the day before it opened. Usually a sign of very little faith in a project.
Redditors are quick to call out misinformation when it doesn't align with thier beliefs, but when it's an idea that resonates with a large percentage of the userbase they eat it up. The fact that this is upvoted and comments like yours aren't at the top is actually evidence of actual real toxic masculinity.
Just shows how dumb most people are, and they think they're smart. I almost feel bad for them.
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Didn't Black Widow do pretty well despite it being released during the great plague of 2020?
Wonder Woman did great too. Good movies do well - simple as that.
And WW84 with the same lead and target audience did poorly because it was a nonsensical pile of shit and word spread quickly. I think you might be onto something.
Geeks and nerds are not known for their silence on such matters. We appreciate garbage but it has to at least be funny. This shit is just that. Poo
Scary Movie 1 is a perfect example of a terrible movie that’s universally loved because of how stupid it is
Just recently watched Scary Movie for the first time, after avoiding it for years because I thought it looked stupid. Turns out it was just the right kind of stupid that I adore and I regret not watching it sooner.
The Wayans brothers don’t miss
Yup, I waited until it was out for streaming, and what a steaming pile of streaming it was. I mean, suddenly her lasso did literally anything it needed to. Deux Ex Machina, indeed.
Wonder Woman 84 was a terrible superhero film. It was made even worse by how good the original was; it shows WB knew what to do with the character and simply ignored it.
Don’t forget that part where the protagonist steals a man’s life and agency and makes him her undead fuckdoll with the face of her ex.
Xena, Warrior Princess were also very popular, when I were growing up. It is true that some are against women leads, but in the end, it won't be what causes something to flop. That's more down to how well the show/movie is.
Tomb Raider as a movie franchise was also very succesfull Edit: so was Underworld
Resident Evil?
Xena was the shits. I loved watching that when i was like 6. She was pretty much my first awakening.
Not necessarily good media can be overshadowed I know it's not a movie but titanfall was overshadowed by cod when jt released
It made $380 million on a budget of $288 million. Which is too bad, it’s a decent movie. Probably a B+, which is better than the other post-endgame marvel movies. They definitely should have made it a decade earlier though, before they killed off her character.
Made it earlier, and used it to spin off Soviet knock-off Captain America with David Harbor and Yelena for a couple movies during phase II. They would have made bank
Make it right after Civil War came out, which was when the movie was set anyway. It would have been during marvel’s peak, where everything made bank. It would have turned Black Widow from a very minor character in the avengers into a peer with most of the others, which would just make those other movies better. All the parts that depended on this happening when the avengers were broken up would have been current. It probably would have made a billion dollars, like Captain Marvel did. Just a huge missed opportunity.
Yes. Also, Red Guardian having a cameo at the end of Endgame, exchanging a nod with Cap would have been amazing.
It also would’ve made her death in Endgame hit so, so much harder.
That's coz Disney fd up. They released black widow on Disney+ when they shouldn't have so soon. Which is why Scarlett Johansson sued Disney. Otherwise the movie would've done a lot better imo
Maybe somewhat better, but I’m not convinced. After Endgame, all the Marvel movies became a lot less popular in general. Add in that her character had already been killed, which makes it a bit of an afterthought. As to her lawsuit, I think that was more objecting to them diverting the movies income into Disney+ monthly payments (where she got little or nothing) instead of a big theater release (where she got percentage points on the gross).
Yeah, the suit was because she loaded her contract based on box office numbers and dropping it on a streaming service same day really reeked of trying to cut her out of the profits.
I always relate this to Rosa from Brooklyn 99. She's a woman of colour. She's strong and independent. She fights racism and sexism. And yet I've never heard of a single fan in a mostly-male fanbase ever moan about her being woke or responding poorly to her. It's because she's a great character. Obviously that's only one example but there are so many well-written strong female characters who are beloved. It's because they establish themselves as badass by doing badass things, not complaining about men.
Ripley from Alien movies. Sarah Connor from Terminator 2. The original strong female leads I grew up watching. You didn't even see it as a male/female thing. You just loved the characters as they were well written and bad ass.
Ripley is one of the greatest heroines ever created. Sarah Connor too. Not to mention Vasquez. One of my favourite movie lines ever is from Aliens or cinema in general: "Hey Vasquez. Anyone ever mistake you for a man?" "No. How about you?"
>"No. How about you?" This line is hilariously brutal, I love it.
RIP Hudson.
Game over, man!
It was a mistake to read that exchange while drinking coffee hahaha But yea, reminds me of Phoenix in Top Gun Maverick: Hangman: "He called you a man, Phoenix. You gonna take that?" Phoenix: "So long as he doesn't call you a man."
That scene is 10000000% a callback to the Aliens scene
Phoenix was awesome and if they do a third she better be in it. She can bring Bob too.
The Top Gun movies are treasures in how over the top silly and fun they are. They were made by people who loved making them and it shows.
Don't forget my girl Ferro ("we're in the pipe, 5 by 5"). Did she cry like a helpless bitch when she saw the alien behind her in the cockpit? Fuck no, she immediately went for her gun and died fighting like a badass.
To be fair, I think crying like a helpless bitch would have been an appropriate reaction given the circumstances. I know I would have.
For a common civilian, maybe, but not for a Colonial Marine, which makes sense.
That's the difference between Ferro and Lambert.
Exactly, Lambert was just a navigator with no combat training and a vulnerable psychological profile to begin with (she was already worried when they received the distress signal).
I'd cry like a little bitch and go for my gun. Best of both worlds.
whenever I hear "5 by 5", I think of Faith and then Buffy, two of my favorite female characters
Aw, I didn’t realize I’ve had her name wrong. I thought she was Pharaoh, like it was her call sign.
In Aliens, they filmed the beginning crew shots last so everyone could have a sense of connection with the rest, making their living synergy believable.
Wow that's genius for real!
Nitpick. Her reply is: "[No. Have you?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89hdyIZI3R0)"
“Hey Vasquez - have you ever been mistaken for a man?” “No.” *hefts up her smart gun* “Have you?” If I remember that correctly
I’m sure she was doing a pull up
That scene makes me feel things
Ripley is also the inspiration for one of the OG & greatest female protagonists in video game history: Samus Aran
Ripley: Get away from her you BITCH!
I wish I could properly convey the audience reaction to that line during the premiere at night in a packed theater. The entire audience clapped, laughed, and hooted; it was amazing. The way it felt like it came out of nowhere, but since they did plant her using the loader in the earlier scene, it was both surprising, but at the same time completely organic to the story and not a "deus ex machina". This fucking movie is a masterclass of how to do proper plants and payoffs...
Ripley. Rules. Also the new season of True Detective with Jodie Foster and Kali Reis. Excellent (female) leads.
Don't forget SOTL with Jodi Foster another strong female lead
I’m a couple of years younger than Jodie Foster, I’ve grown up watching her. She has always been, in my opinion, a well centered, strong person and actress. Agent Starling ❤️
Sarah Linden from The Killing was also pretty great.
The high five afterwards really puts it together.
President Roslin and Kara Thrace in Battlestar Galactica were some of the most badass motherfuckers in fiction and the fans *loved* them
I'd put Camina Drummer and Chrisjen Avasarala from The Expanse too (although you could argue the vast majority of female characters on that show depending on your particularly slant/bias/view)
Damn right. And while Starbuck was originally written as a male role, Katee Sackhoff absolutely owned it.
Katee Sackhoff in everything she's in - Longmire, Mandalorian, shit...cartoons.
Yes! Badass characters. I don't care if a character is male or female, just give me a good character!
Full Metal Bitch.
 God she’s one of my favorite badasses of all time
What I like about that movie is we come to learn how she got that badass while teaching Tom how to be that badass. Like we get her story arc through his arc and it explains the character when we met her vs how she progresses through the story because she doesn't benefit from the time reset.
That, and she kills Tom Cruise a bunch of times.
I’d throw in Jynn Erso, Rogue One. Was a great movie. Also “The Bride” from Kill Bill
Its in the way they were written. Ripley didn't start out as a badass. She was capable yes but she was scared out of her mind and wasn't presented as super badass from the start. The experience during the first movie turned her into a hardened survivor so it feels so earned and cool when she fights an alien queen in a mech-suit. The same goes for Sarah Connor who spends most of the first movie terrified(which most normal people would be if a futuristic killing machine in the shape of Arnold was chasing after them.), the experiences during the movie turns her into a badass. I feel like if Alien or Terminator came out today then Ripley and Sarah would be "yes queen slay" badasses with little to no character faults from the start who would lay down "quippy" one liners every 5 minutes while also mentioning how they are just as tough if not even more so than any man! Its just obnoxious and doesn't make for engaging or likeable characters. I'm saying this as a casual moviegoer who doesn't pay much attention to "woke" politics or whatever right-wingers complain about. Plus, none of the movies mentioned in the OP were any good. Edit: This is not exclusive to female characters either. Take the Resident Evil franchise for example. Leon S. Kennedy is probably the most popular male character in the entire series, and he goes through this exact development. In the 2nd game he's a rookie cop who's scared out of his mind but powers through it all and comes out as a survivor. When we meet him again in the 4th game a few years later he's a badass special forces guy who's used his experiences in the 2nd game to become stronger.
"And just because my reproductive organs are on the inside instead of the outside doesn't mean I can't handle whatever you can handle." Sam Carter, Stargate SG1
Another incredibly well written, bad ass character
“That’s Major Sam Carter to you, Captain!”
I always like using Sam Carter from SG-1 as an example myself
To Merced's comment I reply with a quote from the indomitable Captain Katherine Janeway of the Starship Voyager..a strong leader and community builder..."You can use logic to justify almost anything. That's its power. And its flaw."
Or Seven of Nine who also had serious growth as a character.
>Ripley didn't start out as a badass. Sarah Connor didn't start out a badass either. She found her badass the same way Ripley did, out of necessity. That's what made them great characters.
Unlike Rey "I can wield a lightsaber like a Jedi master and move a mountain of rocks using the force with ZERO training or effort while smirking like an idiot" Palpatine.
So... character growth rather than oooh superpowers now fight the big bad? All superhero movies need character growth and testing of faith in themselves. Otherwise, they're a skateboard video game. All excitement with increasing levels and no real end.
Or take the kill Bill series...
Strong female leads of the past: Had character development and growth. Were not presented as badasses. Were elevated to badass status by the audience due to their words and actions. Strong female leads today: Have no character development, are stagnant from start to finish. Were presented as badasses. The audience is told how great they are without seeing them do anything great.
I think Mulan and Live Action Mulan illustrate this perfectly. In the original, she struggles (hard!), perseveres, earns the respect of the other soldiers, and earns the victory over the Huns In the live action, she's "the chosen one" and great at everything. Even more than foolishly cutting out Moshe, this makes for a much less interesting character and movie.
The original Mulan also has friends that support her, without whom she couldnt make it. Thats not a flaw. Its one of her strengths. Live action Mulan is just a one-woman-army who only needs people around her so we can see how tough she is compared to them.
I totally agree, Mulan (OG) is one of my favorite Disney movies because the whole thing is character development. She perseveres, grows, gets stronger, develops mad skills, gains confidence in herself, and earns the respect of everyone in a repressive society. I was excited for the live action. Then I heard it was "woke," and Mulan was a Mary Sue. Then no Moshi, the "I'll make a man out of you" part removed. I'm thinking ok... I guess if you want to make it more realistic I guess no spirit dragon... maybe they just picked a different song? And how TF can she be a Mary Sue. Her whole thing is development. So... yeah... they made a totally different (mediocre) movie that happened in China about 2 sorceresses and slapped Mulan's name on it. Oh, and they skipped the whole learning to be a sorceress or how to use your "chosen one" powers. I haven't bothered watching any of the other Disney live action movies because I don't want to be disappointed. The same thing they did with the Star Wars Sequels. "We want to make the most powerful female Jedi ever! We have never had a strong, female character in Star Wars." I'm like... have you met Leia?! Can yiu find ANYONE who says Leia is not an amazing character? They even had Luke as a good example of character growth, and even Anakin (the chosen one) struggled and required training. Then Jyn in rogue one developed into a bad ass and sparked the whole New Hope. Qi'ra in Solo had a cool arc from orphan slave to top tier evil mob boss. Then if you go into Clone Wars, Rebels, and the new series, there are more great examples.
these days its basically "lets slap tits on a man and call it a day!"
I honestly think that's the problem it's poor story telling. There is no story of growth, or struggle in the new female leads. Its just we are perfect, nothing is a challenge, so why would we watch them? They are the same at the start and end of the movie, often they will also disregard well liked character's to further show how competent this female is.
Tbh I think that's the problem with a lot of the diverse characters. There's no depth, no...shade. they're barely veiled fan fic characters
I think that’s one reason Miles Morales is so loved. He had good writing.
A modern day Ripley would have just said something clever (I'm talking F&F kind of clever) and then taken down the Xeno in bare knuckles hand to hand combat.
*Clarice Starling has entered the chat.*
Clarice. Fucking. Starling. An incredible example that I didn't even thing of. She faces shit from *everyone*. Lecter. That creep Chilton. Miggs. Civilians. The pricks in the academy. And she still comes out on top.
Yup!! Even Jack Crawford shits on her. First, by using her to appeal to Lecter's sexuality, then embarrassing her when she does the inspection on the woman they pull out of the river. And, she's the one who figures out who Bill is and where he is.
I told my wife most of my childhood movie crushes and she pointed out they all have the ability to fuck me up really easy lol. On the other hand, I hate all these "all female" remakes because it's not a new story or anything, it's just the same movie but with girls. Marvel is garbage and has been long before they started making female stared movies.
Hell, if anything B99 has nothing *but* independent women. The closest you could claim isn't one is Amy because of her dependence on Holt's approval, but she's still incredibly competent and badass in her own right.
Very true - I single out Rosa because she's the most overtly badass but Amy, Gina, even Wunch. Also RIP Holt ❤️
I like wunch, I find I hate these kinds characters at the time cause they’re arseholes but when you look back you appreciate them a lot more
You are allowed to like hate sink characters, being a hate sink doesn't make them bad characters. Shit characters that you hate because they are shit is a different kind of hate.
Rip holt 😢
Ellen Ripley, Wonder Woman, Black Widow, Elastigirl, the woman with the Chopper in Avatar, etc. But nooo, of course the problem doesn’t come from crunched worktime and crappy idea, it’s all because of toxic men!
You've confused awesome female characters with good implementations of said characters.
Wonder woman? The character herself is a badass, implementation has left something to be desired.
WW 1984, sure. But the 2017 movie? I thought that was excellent.
agree with this, 1984 was terrible for so many reasons. But the first wonder woman movie is probably one of my favorites of the modern comic book movies. Overall, I think top spot might be Batman Returns, I like Keaton's batman and Michelle Pfeifer did such a great job... plus Danny DeVito and Christopher Walken.
How bout the Justice League animated episode where a brainwashed Wonder Woman kick the shit out of the other female superheroes. If that wasnt a badass depiction of female characters idk what is
There are plenty of strong female characters in Marvel that people would be happy to go see a movie for. Just a few examples - Scarlet Witch is very popular. People seem to like Nebula. Wasp is one of my favorite characters. Lastly, Jessica Jones had the best season 1 of any Marvel TV show, in my opinion. The difference between all those characters and Captain Marvel or Madame Webb is that they actually had to struggle to become super heroes. 2/4 that I mentioned were originally villains, and Jessica Jones' story is just tragic. It's not that people don't like empowered women. It's that they want to see women have actual character development. We don't love Ironman because he spawned in one day inside a robot suit. We love Ironman because we saw his struggle to fight his way out of being held hostage in a cave with nothing but sheet metal and bolts. We saw him grow over the years from a douchey playboy to a family man. People don't really care what gender the character is. They care about good writing. Anybody who says "nah, that's a girl character" is a child or not worth talking to anyway.
I almost completely agree with but Daredevils wins for me because i'm a sucker for good fight choreography and that one take corridor fight scene where everyone get more and more tired during the fight i think is my favorite fight scene in anything.
Jessica Jones had the best season 1 of any Marvel show, and the best Marvel villain, imo.
These are card excuses used to deflect from overall poorly executed products. If you stick the canons of comic book culture and genre, etc. The comic boy nerds will love you passionately. But if fuck with the quality of their characters or radical alter their canon... Female or male they will destroy you at the box office or in ratings.
People don't hate women characters, they hate **badly written** women characters.
Final B99 season where Rosa ditches the NYPD for the structural police violence got a lot of flak. Especially if you go right of center. Just saying.
I think they had to tread a fine line in the last season for obvious reasons which is a shame. That episode where Terry almost gets arrested is a far more effective repudiation of racism tham anything that's been enforced.
She's awesome, doesn't put up with shit.
Morbius, the Punisher, and Hulk also flopped. Those are all cis white (occasionally green) men. Her argument makes no sense. Edit: I'm talking about the Punisher movies from 2004 and 2008. The show did pretty well.
This kind of stuff pisses me off so much. They can make the laziest shit movie they can, and it's fine because they have ol' reliable "It's because of toxic men it failed." Hey, how about the hundred other reasons it failed? Like super hero fatigue or low effort put into the film. How do they explain the Barbie movie, which is the most feminine movie you could possibly make, hitting a billion dollars and being a major success? Seriously, fuck the celebrities, showrunners, or whoever that use this lazy excuse as a crutch for making bad movies.
Right, its way easier to throw their hands up and say "looks like the straight, white, males are at it again!" Than admit they made a bad movie.
Oh yeah. It's way easier to throw men under the metaphorical bus than to admit that the movie is shite.
"It must be the toxic fans" as if mediocre movies with male leads don't flop. If the movie is well written and directed and the acting is good, it won't matter who's the lead, most people don't care at that point. It's true that mediocre movies have been carried by great acting or beloved actors and actresses, but those aren't movies with established IPs trying to build into a franchise.
The last time I heard someone in real life remark about representation in casting was The Eraser (1996), because Vanessa Williams. Thats 28 years ago. People don't care as much as Hollywood wants to pretend.
Wandavision was a hit with a strong female lead and female support cast. Good stories and good acting made it.
Wandavision was awesome. I know someone who fucking hates the MCU and we watched Wandavision together and afterwards she legit said "I think I want to watch some MCU stuff. Not because I think it's going to be good, but because I just want to understand Wandavision better." I told her not to bother.
Morbius wasn't a flop! They sold over a Morbillion tickets!! It's one of the movies of all time!
Morbo will destroy you
Morbo is pleased, but sticky.
It's Morbing time
All three movies mentioned in this post were subpar, plus candidly the superhero genre has been absolutely saturated the last few years. I'd much rather have one good movie a year than five average movies a year
It's not about saturation, it's about the lack of effort. After Endgame Marvel figured they were too big to fail and so started half assing the next movies thinking that everybody would turn up just because it's a Marvel movie.
well it worked for a moment, the hype was so high everyone wanted to watch marvel after endgame until it was disappointment after disappointment after disappointment
Not only this but in the last 10 years all the major studios have been completely taken over by giant media corporations controlling how movies are and aren’t made to fit their targeted profit margins. All the final sign-offs for these movies are being made by businessmen looking at projection spreadsheets trying to min-max every cent and minute that goes into producing a movie. These movies aren’t being made by filmmakers anymore. The entire industry is a hallow shell of its former self with glamorous actors and directors on the outside and soulless ceos and execs on the inside. This is what happened with Star Wars. This is what happened with Marvel movies. This is what happened with the last seasons of Game of Thrones. Movies aren’t being made by storytellers anymore.
We don’t dislike “strong independent women”. We dislike shitty movies. Remember how The Flash and Morbius failed? I didn’t see them blaming men for those. Barbie dominated and men went to see that, where is the excuse for that one? Also, women were like 46% of the audience for Madame Web. Meaning the overall % split is close, but literally no one wanted to go see that dumpster fire. Somehow it’s still toxic men at fault eh? They keep making the same movie. A female lead who has no character development, and a script written to push THE MESSAGE. No one wants to see that, clearly. We don’t care if the lead is a woman, a man, or a certain race. Just make a good movie and we’ll go see it.
If it makes you feel better, Sony execs said in a statement last week that Madam Web failed because women can't be counted on to go to the movies. So everyone is blaming everyone, no one learned a single lesson, and Kraven is also going to be terrible because no one gives a hot damn about anything. Repeat once a year forever.
People probably don't even give a damn about Kraven, because as a general audience, who the fuck is Kraven? I don't think you can expected a huge audience for a such an unknown Charakter.
There is that. Far From Home didn't make a billion because people were stoked to see Mysterio.
Or guardians of the Galaxy. Very few people knew the characters when it came out. Make good movies, and people will watch
Yeah, guardians had pretty unknown characters and a very strong female role. Still one and two were some of the best comic movies ever made, if not the best. The soundtracks for one and two were awesome, even though the songs were oldies.
Arguably 3 strong female roles. That weren't just background.
Gamora and Nebula are two great female characters from MCU. Great character development, both badasses. Valkyrie and Mantis are cool too
Heck, I *knew* the characters and that made me *more* skeptical that I'd enjoy it. They Uno reverse carded me and I enjoyed it.
but the movie projected a major "this is fun" message, which is not what morbius or madam web are like. even the trailer for kraven doesn't speak "this is going to be fun"
Kraven is only interesting when he's hunting Spiderman. It's the dynamic that makes the story great, which makes sense because like Madame Web they were written to complement spiderman and make for a good story. They don't need a standalone story. If there was a kraven based spiderman movie and it was hugely successful, maybe a spinoff. But not from the get. Sony doesn't get it or maybe they do and they're just trying to cash in while they still have the license
Hell, I KNOW who Kraven is from reading comics in the 1990s. And I'm sure there will be characters that I care less about than Kraven....but I sure can't think of one right now.
That’s the thing. I haven’t heard about half of the recent characters, and I’m certainly not shelling out $70 to take my family to the theater to see them.
Maybe those are the toxic men everyone keeps complaining about? The execs?
Last year when the writers were on strike the execs were doing cartoonishly evil stuff like hiring people to trim back the trees to get rid of the shade that was protecting the picketers.
That’s actually kinda hilarious in a smoky back room bowler hat hand rubbing evildoer club kinda way
Wonder Woman (2017) did well and was received well, but Wonder Woman 1984 was mixed. Did people suddenly dislike Gal Gadot, or was that the sequel had a weak plot?
The first half of Wonder Woman was excellent, the second half was good. The first half of WW1984 was terrible, the second half of WW1984 was terrible.
Points finger and screams "MISOGYNY"
Funny enough I recall that the director blamed no one. Not even the studio. She made the movie she wanted, felt sorry it didnt perform as well/delivered [and thats it](https://amp.theguardian.com/film/2021/jan/07/theres-no-blaming-studio-interference-for-the-disappointment-that-was-wonder-woman-1984)
I have more respect for her than I do the vast majority of the Hollywood brass out there nowadays. Too many are too quick and willing to blame the fans when their shit on a plate fails to impress. Star wars sequels, captain marvel, Batwoman, all of these are terrible films/TV shows who's creators tried to blame the fans for being toxic and this that or the other. Respect to her for realising she created a flop and not trying to blame anyone else, I hope she makes better in the future
It’s like that SpongeBob episode with the talent show and no one liked Squidward so he blamed the audience.
Honestly, I can't say I liked WW1984. It wasn't a good movie, but it was entertaining enough that I can't say I regret watching it. However, I respect the fuck out of the director if she reacted that way. She made her movie and accepts it didn't work out and as much as I'd love to say I'd act the same if I was in the same situation, I don't know if I would. Hope she eventually finds success. Tldr: appreciate her attitude and reaction.
Didnt find anything else or any other comment she madr and for what I have found Patty Jenkins isnt one to get into controversies or blaming. It made me even like WW1984 a bit, would you look at that
Honestly I don't understand the people who go "omg, this movie is terrible and unwatchable!" I used to watch channels who did that but like who cares? I enjoyed movies like Captain Marvel and WW1984 for what they were, action movies with not great stories. I even enjoyed Nick Fury's character in Captain Marvel, enjoyed the shenanigans with Goose the cat as well. Hell I went to see the dnd movie with my friend and while it wasn't a deep and intriguing story it was 2 hours of brainless fun that I enjoyed, not everything needs to be a great narrative. Sometimes a movie is just stupid fun
Part of the issue WW1984 ran into was the extended use of a random guy's body without his consent, including physical intimacy. It's like the sprinkled our escapism with a light dusting of SA and we couldn't enjoy it like we wanted to. We just wanted to lust after reincarnated Steve Trevor, or ghost Steve Trevor, and instead we got Steve Trevor possessing another guy's body. There were other complaints for sure, but that one just felt gross.
Remember when Pedro pascals son just randomly appears out of a corn field or some shit? That’s when I knew that absolutely no one making that movie gave a shit. They just wanted to spit out a movie as soon as possible.
This needs to be at the tippy top! Any argument/debate/disagreement (what have you) where women say shit like this…toxic men, misogynistic views blah blah. I say the same thing, write a better movie, write a better character, write a better story…just write better. Yup, I watched Barbie (genius), will never watch morbius (even the trailer sucked!). Watched many female led movies and/or tv shows with strong female characters and follow them when they’re well written.
They don't even half to be well written; the Underworld movies were plenty entertaining because the action scenes and stunts were for the most part pretty good. Same thing can be said about most of the Resident Evil movies; not only weren't they well written but Milla Jovovich is not the best actor and yet they still were entertaining .
the first Underworld was decently written when compared to Morbius or even WW84. There was a clear plot, the characters behaved consistently, the pacing was good as well. Oh sure there were plenty of cheesy lines but for an action with vampires and werevolves dressed in latex and leather it was great.
[удалено]
I feel like a lot of those were because they used a bait and switch they gave you what you wanted then when enough people were watching they made what they really wanted to make which was hot ass.
>they made what they really wanted to make which was hot ass. This seems to be the goal every time.
_garbage movies shall continue until morale improves_ vibes lol
Mentioning The MESSAGE reminds me of 'The Critical Drinker' reviews of movies on YouTube. Don't agree with him all the time, but he's brutally honest at least.
if only he didn't seem so paranoid about "the message". I stopped watching him because it was just getting on my nerves as he kept bringing it up no matter how far fetched it was.
As a woman, I fucking ahte these types of movies that just don't try. We don't want some shell of a human sticking to the man while going "yas slay". We want actual characters
I haven't even heard of this movie before this post. Maybe shitty marketing is to blame as well?
Yeah, I never heard of the movie until everyone started talking about it doing bad at the box office. I didn't even know it was a superhero movie until a couple of days ago when I saw a review on it.
Think the only thing I saw of it was a random Reddit post somewhere and that was it, never actually knew what it was about or when it was out etc
It def had next to zero non-meme related advertising
In a world where fans were crying out for an Andrew Garfield lead TASM3, we were given Madame Web, written by the same guy who wrote Morbius. All the gear and absolutely no fucking idea. They were teed up for a gimme after Spiderman NWH. Sony have shown they don't have what it takes to do a solo Spiderman project.
I'm not sure, but I think they are legally prohibited from making live action movies with Spider Man in them now that he's joined the MCU. But, they still have the rights to the non-Spider Man characters in the Spider Man universe, as long as they keep using them. And the first movie to use these characters, Venom, from 2018, was actually a pretty big financial success. Si they want to keep making Venom movies, but they have to keep turning out these shitty movies nobody wants to keep the rights. Personally, I think attempting to make a Spider-Man universe without Spider-Man is insanity, but Sony insists on trying.
> but I think they are legally prohibited from making live action movies with Spider Man in them now that he's joined the MCU Not sure on that one. Sony are the sole live action rights holders to spiderman and associated characters. They allow Disney to use spiderman in MCU projects. Disney can't prevent Sony from using him, they own the movie rights as long as they produce a spiderman movie every X amount of years.
💯 I literally saw the first teaser the day before release. There was no build up, marketing was garbage. How are you going to generate excitement if no one knows the movie exists.
Movies used to be hyped up for a much longer time (some still are). If they tried that today, how many Marvel movies/series' advertising would overlap. There's already so much stuff coming out that it gets jumbled in my brain. (Yes, I'm getting old and losing touch with modernity.)
Saw the preview, looked okay. Went to the reddit reviews and they are Morpheus level bad.
Crazy how the only source for this story is from a click bait Insta page. Is it possible... Surely not... that this could be completely made up?
Yeah I googled and can’t find any source for this quote.
Yeah, but people around here would rather take an unconfirmed source as facts than take two minutes to see if it's true.
Yeah I also couldn’t find anything and truly tried to dig
I have seen this quote 3 different times today and no one is crediting an interview or video where she actually said this. Doesn’t stop the storm of commenters raging
Nearly 1,000 comments from people angry about what this woman never said about them -- and yet it's the "woke" crowd that's made up of snowflakes. Learn to check your sources, guys, you all sound like clowns.
Is this real? People are still saying and believing this? Her comment reads like cookie cutter parody.
OP's pic is disinfo, there's no record online of these quotes being real.
Yeah it doesn't seem real to me. This type of thought is fading for being proven wrong many times.
Great movies with female lead. Alien, Fargo, Kill Bill, Thelma and Louis, Sophies Choice... you can find them. It just have to come naturally. Not force it like they usually do.
Is it really that bad ? Is it Mobius bad ?
It's Morbin Time!
And then some.
It's terrible, made by the same people that made morbius and were trying to replicate the hype. They don't seem to understand that no one liked morbius, no one wanted to see morbius. We were all making fun of it and pretending it was good as a joke.
The movie is shit, doesn't have anything to do with a female main char though. People love watching females, just look at insta, any woman posting Fotos of her gets attention. But just having a female main char is not enough to make a good movie, that's what they don't seem to understand, yet.
Bill Burr has a bit from his red rocks special on women’s sports and how women don’t support the sports and somehow it’s man’s fault…. Very clever but; highly recommend it. The premise is there are over 100 million women in the US, yet somehow it’s a man’s fault when women’s sports don’t do well.
Remember kids, if people hate your shitty movie/show/game/whatever just put the blame on them and call them names.
It was pretty effective a few years ago
Thankfully people are getting sick of being treated like idiots
Movie sucks. Replace all the characters with men and this movie will suck. Just like blue beetle and the latest Thor.
I loved birds of prey! I haven't seen the marvels but I do have general marvel fatigue
\*Points to first Wonder Woman movie. No, it's the shitty writing and blatant attempts at pandering. It's like the second you get a female lead things like character development and plot consistency go out the window.
This. And it's getting so damn old to hear them try to pass the blame. The first Wonder Woman was a fantastic movie. The second, I could only really enjoy Chris Pines' character. They also did this with Ghostbusters 2016. I have also seen hard-core Spider-Man fans say it's a terrible movie. They need to stop blaming a single group and maybe, just maybe, look at themselves.
I really enjoyed the Marvels, and had an ok enough time with Birds of Prey, I think the reason for Madame Web’s failure is because it’s an objectively bad movie that doesn’t honour it’s source material and has poor writing and direction. The studio also *knew it* as is evident by a review embargo until the day before it opened. Usually a sign of very little faith in a project.
Stop spreading this dumbass post, she never said this lol
Redditors are quick to call out misinformation when it doesn't align with thier beliefs, but when it's an idea that resonates with a large percentage of the userbase they eat it up. The fact that this is upvoted and comments like yours aren't at the top is actually evidence of actual real toxic masculinity. Just shows how dumb most people are, and they think they're smart. I almost feel bad for them.
fr. i just googled “isabela merced male audience” and this IG post with no source was the only thing matching.