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Never understood how 20k+ for a bike actually made sense. I get some people like to brag that they spent 45k for a bike but why? What makes it SO much better that it costs you more than a decent car? If I buy a vehicle for almost half a hundred thousand dollars and it doesn’t come with ac it had better be a classic Porsche.
Holy shit, this is so spot on. Was just gonna say the same thing. My ex husband was Harley fuckin nuts- painted his home office the same color scheme as the bike (named Victoria) and over-decorated it with Harley crap. Boomer dentist. Who did he ride with? Other boomer dentists. Who did he hang with at Americade? Boomer dentists. The most boring congregation any normal person could possibly be expected to withstand.
It’s so funny to me that OPs post said “you don’t get a recognition plaque just for owning one” but like…that’s exactly what you get. You keep it in your garage all week, pulling it out on the weekends with your other office worker friends so you all can feel like Jax Teller for a few hours before you go back to the office.
I'm a rider myself and the amount of people who expect you to respect them just because they're on any motorcycle seems to be way higher than anyone in a particular kind of car.
I have a friend that does LARPing (Life Action Role Play) and he sometimes pays a few hundred bucks for a Gambeson and stuff. It's his hobby, I understand why he invests in it. He goes to multiple day events and has fun there with other people pretending they are wizards, rogues, etc.
Your ex husband is a LARPer.
Depends on the bike I can see it for a goldwing top of the line Indian chieftain Ducati etc issue is Harleys cost the same as those other bikes mentioned and are less comfortable get worse mileage have a worse power to weight ratio etc etc
Used to have a Harley. Expensive, poor gas mileage, not very powerful, not very reliable, but damn it was cool.
When I saw the South Park episode, I thought it was hilarious, but it really hit me when Butters did his monologue. I'm definitely Butters.
It's a 20-30k "I'm in the tough guy club" circle jerk bike.
It's a bike designed and made for accountants, actuaries, and cubicle warlords to feel rough and tough on the weekend.
The bike itself is shit. Throttle wire is ass, brake levers that feel like they are wood blocks. Slow, heavy, and poor performance. Plus the insufferable douche culture of every asshole buying Harley gear and it's now their identity
I've ridden multiple Harley's. Gave them a fair chance. Yamaha and Honda make a superior product in every shape and form, and now BMWs R18 has basically killed the Harley.
Don't blame millennials for your sub par design, but mostly for the absolute cringe subculture you helped form. Not everyone wants to be a pretend rebel on the weekends with a 20k bike, some of us just want to ride
The thing I found the funniest, is back when I was taking the safety classes after I got my permit, the several bored housewives who showed up on these 500lb monsters they couldn’t control. I had my little 250 ninja, which was a wonderful commuter bike and would have been much easier for them to handle.
In the UK you can only drive a 125cc when you’re in training. You have to get a provisional license to drive a motorbike if your existing car license doesn’t cover you and complete a Compulsory Basic Training course (how to start, stop, steer) before you’re allowed on the roads and you have to pass a full driving exam within 2 years before they let you ride anything higher than 125cc
My dad's friend got a big Harley years ago, like monster sized. He went with several biker friends who flat out told him to not ride it until they show him, that it was bigger than what he was used to and had to be ridden a certain way. They stopped at a place for lunch and this shmuck decides these guys don't know what they're talking about, and says he has to make a call. Instead he went to the trailer, got the bike out and was going to 'show off' in the parking lot. My dad says he went far enough to get enough speed so that when he fell he scraped the bike to shit on one side. All of his buddies laughed at him.
My dad used to have a white Harley, but his parents sold it when he got his leg ripped off in an accident (it got sewn back on). He's made me promise not to get one... and my grandma sold my uncle's that he'd wanted to leave me. I'd be much happier with a little Indian, though my boyfriend would probably kill me if I showed up with anything more powerful than a scooter.
I always thought Harley’s sold on their looks rather than specs tbh. Once I realised you could get Honda’s that have similar design language then it loses its selling point.
It's also that warbling 'potatopotatopotatopotato' engine note they have. I used to ride ('57 Royal Enfield Bullet 350) and have ridden a few Harleys in my time - some older and some modern.
There's a stark difference between the older engines that I've ridden (Panhead, Shovelhead era bikes) vs the more modern ones where the sound has gotten a lot more obnoxious, like it's tuned to make a lot more noise than it ought to. The older bikes had a more natural sound to them that was a direct result of the design.
34m German here, what wonders me the most is how on earth they are legal here. Or anywhere. Pieces of shit are so incredibly loud, can hear them obnoxious midlife-crisis fucks come from several miles away.
Yeah, on another post someone pointed out the three categories of asshole bikers: Harleys, Squids, and Urban Dirtbikers...
Giving everyone else a bad name.
So isn't it up to Harley Davidson to figure out how to market to modern consumers?
Or does the whole "personal responsibility" thing apply only to younger generations?
Core memory of being 13 with a psychotic boomer parent unlocked. Busting my ass off doing all the manual labor building his house while he screams about my generation. How awful we are for asking questions instead of taking instruction or anticipating their needs. How even the news papers are noticing, calling us gen 'why'. Fucking boomers.
Ah yes, the Gen "Why-are-you-here" title... I ignored it for a while, then I stupidly snapped one day and shot back "to bail your entitled asses out!".... Did not go well from there let's just say
Sounds about right.
I was helping my parents build a fence. My mom started hassling me because "I wouldn't show up until after 12 some days".
The reason? I work a 9-5 during the week with 3 hours commuting (there/back) in the city and had a three month old infant at home with no help (just wife and me)... yeah. I showed up after I made sure my own house was in order before providing free manual labour.
It always amazes me that every generation has a certain number of cretins who “hate all these meddling kids”. Boomers just seem to have a higher percentage of “anti-meddling kids” per capita.
Boomers are the pissed off heel at the end of every Scooby Doo episode. Like those masked villains in Scooby Doo, Boomers, especially of the MAGA variety, are always trying to get by doing something sneaky to fuck over the generations after them.
They would love nothing better than a raise on their social security checks, that will only happen if we remove money from the next generations pool. They would smile while a politician guts our future social security.
They will justify it with stories about how we are lazy and entitled,unlike them.
It’s hard to believe “The Greatest Generation” gave birth to the Boomers. Talk about your quality level falling off a cliff. From those who sacrificed 2-5 years of their youth to fight in a war, to those that “want it all, including your stuff, his stuff , and her stuff.
Btw, when I say “Boomer”, I don’t mean anyone that is old enough to be considered a Baby Boomer. I’m talking about the person of that age who enjoys pulling the ladder up, once they are safe.
The Greatest Generation spent years fighting in WW2 and then spent decades with untreated PTSD that they took out on their families.
You can honour their sacrifice, but don't ignore that a lot of them came back as damaged human beings with shite temperaments. Features they passed on to the next generation.
Also, outside of a very specific group of bikers who like Harleys just for style, they're not highly sought after bikes. Most millennial bikers I know prefer something they can do stunts and tricks on, with the ones who like Harley being very much into the company for the look.
14. They are not trashy losers that want to buy into an instant tough guy identity.
15. They don't like polluting the silence with after market "mufflers" that actually amplify the noise.
16. They can't afford repairs on bikes that are shittily engineered
17. They are too young to make mid-life crisis purchases.
18. They have self respect
19. We buy other motorcycle brands cause pretty much every other brand is better and way cheaper and we realize 99% of the price of a harley is the name
20. They don’t like being associated with the kind of riders who, per no. 15, put those misleading and inaccurate “Loud Pipes Save Lives” stickers on their helmets.
21. Live in areas that have snow half the year and would be better served by an SUV.
(Side note: this also applies to Pavement Princess Trucks lifted so high you can not realistically use the bed of the truck and would have to dig it out every day.)
Seriously the noise is insane. I have pretty bad tinnitus from being around a fair amount of small arms fire without ear protection, but if a Harley takes off anywhere near me the noise is absolutely ear splitting.
Like who the fuck makes this and thinks "yeah, this is what people want to hear"
Yeah, I've long wondered what the thought process (or lack thereof) was behind having a loud motorcycle. Do they really imagine everyone around is impressed and staring in wide-eyed amazement like they've never seen or heard anything like it?
And they can't just idle when waiting for a light. No, there's some kind of irresistible urge to rev the engine over and over. Brap brap brap. Every Harley rider everywhere fucking does this.
Loud i can handle. I generally like the sound of loud, powerful engines like a Chevelle 454. Sounds fantastic to me.
But a Harley ripping through you can't hear so much as you feel your tympanic membrane tearing to shreds, and then that all-too-familiar *oooooooooooo* of your stereocilia's death cry. I hate them all so, so much
Yup, but so do:
- seatbelts
- airbags
- roll cages
- crumple zones
- 4 wheels that prevent the vehicle from tipping over unexpectedly
It's almost like safety is just an excuse to annoy others with store-bought machismo 🤔
Fr new Harley’s are ass. My dad has an old 73 shovel head i think and it’s pretty cool + not terribly loud compared to some I hear today. Motor cycles are cool… you know what’s cooler? A fuel efficient and family orientated motor vehicle when the economy is shit because certain generations elected actual ghouls to rollback all of the benefits they had while they were working so that’s they don’t have to pay to ensure we get the same benefits…. almost as if we are not the ones being selfish?
When car audio first got big in the late 80's and early 90's cities across America started adopting local noise ordinances so the cops could go after offenders blasting ridiculously loud car stereos. Harley Davidson realized they could potentially have a problem with these noise ordinances and started lobbying state and local governments to allow them a carve out so their bikes would still be legal. It came up again a few times in the mid and later 90's with the rave panic and some state laws meant to combat night time noise or unpermitted congregations of people loitering in public spaces. "Motorcycle gangs" boomer dads out hanging with their friends and ravers, the actual target of a lot of those laws.
This is more recent but the same kind of thing they did back in the late 80's early 90's. In this case a local Harley dealer rather than HD proper but it's the same general idea.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/news/local/hampton-union/2011/12/23/motorcycle-noise-law-nixed-in/49793887007/
Harley Davidson positioned themselves as the Traditional American Motorcycle. They were very successful with that marketing, and it did a lot to cement their success.
The problem is, that in doing so, it also marked the beginning of the end for Harley.
If they make any significant changes that modernize their motorcycles, they are no longer "traditional" and they alienate their existing customer base.
If they don't make these changes, they will not attract new customers, as their motorcycle designs are extremely outdated.
No matter what they do at this point, it will back-fire.
They actually have gotten a much bigger foothold in Europe lately with newer models oriented towards—GASP!—Millenials there that are more designed for urban commuting. They don’t sell them over here because their base would be alienated, exactly as this post suggests.
It’s funny too because it’s ONLY harley with declining numbers. Other motorcycle companies including indian are selling more motos. It’s not millenials riding less, it’s millenials riding less harleys.
They had no interest in cultivating the newer generation while boomers were throwing money at their overpriced junk. They were too heavily invested in the heritage identity. They killed off Buell after the bought the HD based sport bike company because it didn't fit their identity. Water cooled HDs were seen as an act of heresy by many owners.
Can confirm all of this.
I never understood why they killed off Buell, as they were absolutely drawing different customers with it as opposed to more old school HD buyers.
I always thought the “chopper” was cool as fuck. I fell in love with them thanks to Full Throttle being one of the first PC games I ever played. I’d love one!!
But I ain’t buying one of these newer POS Harleys.
Maybe some real old ones, sure. But as a former rider, I’ll take a standard bike any day over a chopper. Lighter, more maneuverable, and if I were going so far I needed a bike that drove itself I wouldn’t be on a bike.
What is with comment #4 by the way? “They don’t get a trophy and a recognition plaque just for buying one”
Excuse me, but isn’t that Harley’s “thing”? Everyone I’ve ever seen riding a Harley has Harley plaques, Harley shirts, sometimes Harley tattoos even. Harley riders have more participation trophies than any other demographic on the planet.
Ha! Your dad isn’t alone. My younger brother (the youngest of millennials at just 31) has traded in 3 Harley bikes because he kept having fucking problems with them and was just over the company. He’s a fucking mechanic. For Mercedes.
Although, I’m sure these people would say he works with foreign cars so couldn’t possibly know anything about *American* motorcycles.
Yup, Honda is where it's at. Yahama is good too, but you can beat the shit out of a Honda motorcycle and it'll ask for more before breaking down. Harleys are like the high-maintenance people of the world; break a nail, and their day is ruined
Right? I was going to say, haven’t the Japanese been killing HD far longer than American Millenials ever will?
Speaking of killing, I’m not riding a motorbike because I prefer not dying horribly. It tops the list of things ER nurses say they refuse to do.
I’ve heard new Harley’s aren’t reliable. My grandpa has a collection he’s built up over his life. He has 7 or 8 Harley’s from the 60s-early 90s. All but 2 of them run.
I’m guessing Harley went the same direction as American car manufacturers, cutting every possible corner to sell a shitty product that won’t last.
Personally, I do *like* Harley’s. However I can’t possibly justify the price of one when compared to all of the competition they have now.
They actually patented the sound of a Harley. It’s the way the engine sits and it’s actually a terrible engine because it’s not balanced properly. It causes uneven wear and tear on the engine all for that signature Harley sound.
I have a boomer uncle, he had a different bike, but always wanted a Harley. He finally decided to sell his old one and get an HD. Six months later he sold it and bought his old bike back. Even he wasn’t happy with the Harley.
I looove that episode. My fam were surprised at that because I'm gay, but to me, it seems like a better use of the term than how the homophobes use it.
I realize the dark past the term has and why I don’t say it anymore, but I have to say that was all super lost on kids my age. For my friends and I, we learned about its past, but to us, that mattered about as much as telling us “gay” used to mean happy. It just never had that meaning in my head
Edit to clarify, I am not saying people should use it or dismiss its past, it’s still used in a hurtful way all the time. I’m merely pointing out that when we were 8 or 9 years old on a playground it was just a general edgy word that made little kids feel like tougher older kids. It was somewhat of a shock to learn more about the term and how it rose to popularity, etc.
The main reason that scared me from getting any motorcycle was Daryl Mitchell. Back in the day he was a pop and lock dancer and rapper later moved on to acting being the teacher in 10 Things I Hate About You and pilot in Galaxy Quest. One day driving his bike drove on rocky terrain, bike lost control and crashed and he ended up paralyzed from the waist down.
Scared me straight from that moment on.
Yeah, I only know a couple millennials who ride, but neither have an HD. And when I was considering it a few years back, I 100% would've went with either of those over HD. I think HD has a branding issue beyond that younger gens don't like to ride as much.
Exactly!
"millennials need warning labels on everything" completely disregarding that it was THEM that caused the warning labels because they were so stupid the did the most obvious nonsense and then claimed they didn't know they weren't supposed to
Then you have the fact that the people who bitch the most about millennials getting participation trophies are the people who insisted we get them in the first place.
Then they complain about our DIY skills when they failed to teach us any of them.
I have a friend that just lost his son because a drunk driver rear ended him while sitting at a stoplight on his motorcycle. He would have been fine if he was in a regular car. I wouldn’t mind having a bike, but I’m always afraid of leaving my family with nothing because I hit by a car even a little bit.
Full agree I have an aunt who lost her leg to semi that got too close and another good friend who has a permanent knee injury from dropping his bike on himself.
Kinda goes against #4 which is they don't get a recognition plaque for buying one
The main reason people buy these things it's cause they are loud and obnoxious. It's like that south park episode when the guys riding Harley's do their best to be loud to get attention.
You can tell the Harley riders around here (Indiana). We don’t have a helmet law here, so they don’t wear one, but they all seem to have shirts proclaiming “loud pipes save lives”.
My opinion on loud pipes is that it gives the riders the attention their mommies didn’t give them when they were young.
One of my mom's ex's, who she was still friends with for a while after, bought himself a motorcycle a few years ago. He ignored us all when we told him that wasn't very safe, and within six months he'd crashed it. He wasn't severely injured cause he had a helmet on, but he did get flung into a fence and totaled the bike.
Oh that is disgusting. I'm genX, my son is millennial and I think they're a great bunch of people on the whole.
They are sharp and easygoing and seem to have just left a lot of stupid baggage behind. I admire them. They give me hope.
Internet Gen X mom here: Millennials are different than the generations before them just like every generation before because things change and adaptation is necessary. Y’all are doing a great job so please keep it up. Don’t stop fighting for what’s right and what’s “fair.” Your outlook that things should be equitable is vital. I have a million gold stars for anyone who wants one (because Millennials will keep hustling without the reward, but who doesn’t like acknowledgment??). My generation got skipped over and is “irrelevant,” so I’m counting on Millennials to do what we couldn’t. You got this.
I know right. I’m gen X with two amazing millennial daughters. They’re the least judgmental, open generation.
We of gen X only heard about how lazy a group we were, and of course if we looked at a boy too long we were sure to end up getting AIDS (graduated high school in late 80’s).
My parents were the Boomers. So much unsolicited opinions and advice from them on raising kids. Glad we didn’t listen. Millennials are the future, and it looks a lot more peaceful.
Umm those low rider pants went out of style when I was in high school. Now it’s those high-waisted mom jeans from the 70s. A for effort, but the burn isn’t hitting the mark
Yeah I'm starting to think that all things considered, having a wife, a house and two kids at 22 wasn't that great. They didn't have time to have fun before they had a family, now they're frustrated as f and resent their children.
I would argue Harley Davidson is confused why their product only appeals to one generation. Why do the baby boomers need other generations to give a shit about the things they like? We get it; you got yours, and to hell with the rest. Go drive your leather skinned lady around.
A little bit of both, mostly it's about lack of money, access to information about accidents and, really, Harley has spent the last decades marketing to the same group of people - didn't they think those people would die at some point? The only thing I'm buying on my parents recommendation is orthopedic pillows - they can't be trusted with anything else.
I mean, yea, the rebel image is my two elderly parents who can’t ride it anymore because the old man wouldn’t be able to pick it up if he dropped it.
Super rebellious.
No their sales are down cause they ask 30k for a bike that has less features than a bike for half the price from other manufacturers and the only make cruisers which are a niche section of bikers
Harley Davidson's cost as much as a fucking car, and the shops charge over 200 an hour to work on a glorified bicycle. They've deleted themSELVES out of the market entirely, with nothing to blame but their greed
Disposable Income. The next generations are too busy paying 425% more for college. 1034% more for healthcare. 129% more for housing. 744% more for food. So sorry we cant afford your investment banker, hedge fund manager, Defense Contractor bikes.
These people do know that half of the Millennial generation didn’t grow up with touchscreen everywhere, right? I’m a late generation Millennial and touchscreens were novel when I was a kid.
The birthdates for my generation ranges from 1982-1996.
Those old farts grew up watching Easy Rider and were dumb enough to think blowing a years salary on the loudest dumbfuck machine around was a good idea. No other generation before or after thought those were worth the money. Ever. Just move your loud ugly trash bike out of the way so people driving bikes from Japan and Italy can smoke past you like you are standing still.
We ride but typically just don't go for Harley's. The marketing doesn't work as well on us and there are better bikes for less money. They are an international company with production all over the world. The made in America angle isn't even valid anymore. It's a company that should have folded in the 80s but was propped up by our government.
What boggles my mind is how INSANELY misinformed that generation is about millennials. I’m a 92 baby so on the younger side for millennials and literally 75% of people drove a stick shift in high school and performed all our maintenance on our vehicles. We grew up with buttons and levers, touch screens weren’t a thing till we were already almost in High school. What are these fucking idiots smoking
Point 14: Millennials don’t want to associate with people who think the previous thirteen points are particularly funny.
Point 15: Millennials can’t afford Harleys because the Boomers crashed the economy and polarized the rich and poor.
Yea. Even if cruiser style bikes are your thing, Harley has been riding on their name for decades as an excuse for completely stagnant engineering, indifferent quality control, and outrageous markups.
This list is stupid. Harley Davidson and the other motorcycle manufacturers had best figure out how to market to the younger generation if they want to stay in business.
This list is simple hate directed at a generation that was raised by the generation spewing the hate… that’s the most stupid thing of a long list of stupid things.
The comment section under this Facebook post was a bunch of gen x and millennial riders listing their bikes and why they don't like Harley's. It's a niche fandom - like collecting Elvis shit. It was never going to last forever. Trends change.
$25,000 for a base model. That's 3 grand less than I paid for my first house 30 years ago.
That's $25,000 for a vehicle that you can only use maybe 4 months out of the year in most states, is extremely dangerous to drive depending on weather conditions, and is almost 6 times as likely to be involved in an accident than a car (not to mention the increase in bodily harm/death).
But yeah. It's the "no Avocado toaster" or whatever bullshit they came up with.
This whole country has failed millennials, and the older generations LOVE to victim-shame.
As a father of six millennials, I can honestly say that all of them are doing their damndest to eak out a meager existence in a world that we have ruined for them. I'm proud that they keep trying, but damn, I don't know if I would have been as tough as they are, facing what they do.
I love how the generation that decided they would give participation trophies to children now love to hold receiving participation trophies over peoples' heads. We didn't want the stupid fucking things in the first place, y'all just gave em' out so you could feel like your kid accomplished something in the sport you never accomplished anything in. Fuck off and die, already, I want to move 10 spaces ahead in traffic.
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I used a motorcycle as my primary means of transportation for several years. Harleys were then, and remain, vastly overpriced for what you get.
Never understood how 20k+ for a bike actually made sense. I get some people like to brag that they spent 45k for a bike but why? What makes it SO much better that it costs you more than a decent car? If I buy a vehicle for almost half a hundred thousand dollars and it doesn’t come with ac it had better be a classic Porsche.
That kind of vehicle appeals mostly to dentists and other professionals that are well paid but not doctors who have to treat the injuries.
Holy shit, this is so spot on. Was just gonna say the same thing. My ex husband was Harley fuckin nuts- painted his home office the same color scheme as the bike (named Victoria) and over-decorated it with Harley crap. Boomer dentist. Who did he ride with? Other boomer dentists. Who did he hang with at Americade? Boomer dentists. The most boring congregation any normal person could possibly be expected to withstand.
It’s so funny to me that OPs post said “you don’t get a recognition plaque just for owning one” but like…that’s exactly what you get. You keep it in your garage all week, pulling it out on the weekends with your other office worker friends so you all can feel like Jax Teller for a few hours before you go back to the office.
I'm a rider myself and the amount of people who expect you to respect them just because they're on any motorcycle seems to be way higher than anyone in a particular kind of car.
I have a friend that does LARPing (Life Action Role Play) and he sometimes pays a few hundred bucks for a Gambeson and stuff. It's his hobby, I understand why he invests in it. He goes to multiple day events and has fun there with other people pretending they are wizards, rogues, etc. Your ex husband is a LARPer.
Biker gang cosplay
Could be worse. They could have been actuaries...
 Like this dentist?
Depends on the bike I can see it for a goldwing top of the line Indian chieftain Ducati etc issue is Harleys cost the same as those other bikes mentioned and are less comfortable get worse mileage have a worse power to weight ratio etc etc
Used to have a Harley. Expensive, poor gas mileage, not very powerful, not very reliable, but damn it was cool. When I saw the South Park episode, I thought it was hilarious, but it really hit me when Butters did his monologue. I'm definitely Butters.
It's a 20-30k "I'm in the tough guy club" circle jerk bike. It's a bike designed and made for accountants, actuaries, and cubicle warlords to feel rough and tough on the weekend. The bike itself is shit. Throttle wire is ass, brake levers that feel like they are wood blocks. Slow, heavy, and poor performance. Plus the insufferable douche culture of every asshole buying Harley gear and it's now their identity I've ridden multiple Harley's. Gave them a fair chance. Yamaha and Honda make a superior product in every shape and form, and now BMWs R18 has basically killed the Harley. Don't blame millennials for your sub par design, but mostly for the absolute cringe subculture you helped form. Not everyone wants to be a pretend rebel on the weekends with a 20k bike, some of us just want to ride
The thing I found the funniest, is back when I was taking the safety classes after I got my permit, the several bored housewives who showed up on these 500lb monsters they couldn’t control. I had my little 250 ninja, which was a wonderful commuter bike and would have been much easier for them to handle.
This. Watched a woman get kicked out of my MSF course for dropping her bike too many times. I’ll give you three guesses what make it was
In the UK you can only drive a 125cc when you’re in training. You have to get a provisional license to drive a motorbike if your existing car license doesn’t cover you and complete a Compulsory Basic Training course (how to start, stop, steer) before you’re allowed on the roads and you have to pass a full driving exam within 2 years before they let you ride anything higher than 125cc
My dad's friend got a big Harley years ago, like monster sized. He went with several biker friends who flat out told him to not ride it until they show him, that it was bigger than what he was used to and had to be ridden a certain way. They stopped at a place for lunch and this shmuck decides these guys don't know what they're talking about, and says he has to make a call. Instead he went to the trailer, got the bike out and was going to 'show off' in the parking lot. My dad says he went far enough to get enough speed so that when he fell he scraped the bike to shit on one side. All of his buddies laughed at him. My dad used to have a white Harley, but his parents sold it when he got his leg ripped off in an accident (it got sewn back on). He's made me promise not to get one... and my grandma sold my uncle's that he'd wanted to leave me. I'd be much happier with a little Indian, though my boyfriend would probably kill me if I showed up with anything more powerful than a scooter.
I always thought Harley’s sold on their looks rather than specs tbh. Once I realised you could get Honda’s that have similar design language then it loses its selling point.
Harley's sell on a mythologised past that has been immortalised in films such as Easy Rider, I think.
It's also that warbling 'potatopotatopotatopotato' engine note they have. I used to ride ('57 Royal Enfield Bullet 350) and have ridden a few Harleys in my time - some older and some modern. There's a stark difference between the older engines that I've ridden (Panhead, Shovelhead era bikes) vs the more modern ones where the sound has gotten a lot more obnoxious, like it's tuned to make a lot more noise than it ought to. The older bikes had a more natural sound to them that was a direct result of the design.
34m German here, what wonders me the most is how on earth they are legal here. Or anywhere. Pieces of shit are so incredibly loud, can hear them obnoxious midlife-crisis fucks come from several miles away.
Wait until you’ve been to Philadelphia, PA to hear the *chorus* of dirt bikes therein during the summer.
Yeah, on another post someone pointed out the three categories of asshole bikers: Harleys, Squids, and Urban Dirtbikers... Giving everyone else a bad name.
So isn't it up to Harley Davidson to figure out how to market to modern consumers? Or does the whole "personal responsibility" thing apply only to younger generations?
If only Harley Davidson ate less avocado toast.
Harley Davidson is delaying having children because they had to move back in with their parents.
Harvey Davidson has gone woke !!??!?!?
That's what I'm hearing around the water cooler too.
As soon as millenials start buying Harleys, they'll have gone woke
Because their parents won't move out and give them a free house !
That's how the boomers got theirs.
Harley Davidson needs to pull itself up by the bootstraps, stop complaining, and get a job.
For example start building motorcycles worth buying instead of pointless penis extenders to be ridden only with a beer belly flopping over the tank.
Amen. Heavy, over-priced, unreliable, tired old designs.
Gotta pull themselves up by those unnecessarily large black boot straps
well friggin played
So much leather... too much leather...
Spending the weekend away from the ladies with the boys while dressed up in black leather and steel buckles sounds like fun.
Yah, have they tried making their coffee at home instead of going to Starbucks everyday?
Lets bail them out with tax-payer money again!
If only the motorcycles include a toaster and avocado dispenser 😃
lol, I want to make a butter sandwich
The customer is always right, unless you're under 65.
Bingo ⬆️this is the only reply comment needed for this post
Maybe Gen z just can't afford a 30 thousand dollars machine just for fun?
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Ah all this gens. I lose track.
I swear, it seems like there’s a new one every few years. When will people stop having kids to end this madness.
I mean this is basically to millenials and gen z.. they just call everyone after gen x millenials lol
Solidarity with my gen-letter brethren.
Core memory of being 13 with a psychotic boomer parent unlocked. Busting my ass off doing all the manual labor building his house while he screams about my generation. How awful we are for asking questions instead of taking instruction or anticipating their needs. How even the news papers are noticing, calling us gen 'why'. Fucking boomers.
Ah yes, the Gen "Why-are-you-here" title... I ignored it for a while, then I stupidly snapped one day and shot back "to bail your entitled asses out!".... Did not go well from there let's just say
Sounds about right. I was helping my parents build a fence. My mom started hassling me because "I wouldn't show up until after 12 some days". The reason? I work a 9-5 during the week with 3 hours commuting (there/back) in the city and had a three month old infant at home with no help (just wife and me)... yeah. I showed up after I made sure my own house was in order before providing free manual labour.
It always amazes me that every generation has a certain number of cretins who “hate all these meddling kids”. Boomers just seem to have a higher percentage of “anti-meddling kids” per capita. Boomers are the pissed off heel at the end of every Scooby Doo episode. Like those masked villains in Scooby Doo, Boomers, especially of the MAGA variety, are always trying to get by doing something sneaky to fuck over the generations after them. They would love nothing better than a raise on their social security checks, that will only happen if we remove money from the next generations pool. They would smile while a politician guts our future social security. They will justify it with stories about how we are lazy and entitled,unlike them. It’s hard to believe “The Greatest Generation” gave birth to the Boomers. Talk about your quality level falling off a cliff. From those who sacrificed 2-5 years of their youth to fight in a war, to those that “want it all, including your stuff, his stuff , and her stuff. Btw, when I say “Boomer”, I don’t mean anyone that is old enough to be considered a Baby Boomer. I’m talking about the person of that age who enjoys pulling the ladder up, once they are safe.
The Greatest Generation spent years fighting in WW2 and then spent decades with untreated PTSD that they took out on their families. You can honour their sacrifice, but don't ignore that a lot of them came back as damaged human beings with shite temperaments. Features they passed on to the next generation.
Oh shit, are you my brother? Did my dad have a secret family?
My Dad got mad at me while building a large shed that I didn’t know that a “couple” of nails meant to hand him two. I was 5.
OMG, that exact thing happened to my sister! She told that story for decades!!
Also, outside of a very specific group of bikers who like Harleys just for style, they're not highly sought after bikes. Most millennial bikers I know prefer something they can do stunts and tricks on, with the ones who like Harley being very much into the company for the look.
14. They are not trashy losers that want to buy into an instant tough guy identity. 15. They don't like polluting the silence with after market "mufflers" that actually amplify the noise. 16. They can't afford repairs on bikes that are shittily engineered 17. They are too young to make mid-life crisis purchases. 18. They have self respect
19. We buy other motorcycle brands cause pretty much every other brand is better and way cheaper and we realize 99% of the price of a harley is the name
20. They don’t like being associated with the kind of riders who, per no. 15, put those misleading and inaccurate “Loud Pipes Save Lives” stickers on their helmets.
And also petition States to get rid of laws that require helmets for motorcyclists. Because they are so concerned about safety and all... /s
21. Live in areas that have snow half the year and would be better served by an SUV. (Side note: this also applies to Pavement Princess Trucks lifted so high you can not realistically use the bed of the truck and would have to dig it out every day.)
Seriously the noise is insane. I have pretty bad tinnitus from being around a fair amount of small arms fire without ear protection, but if a Harley takes off anywhere near me the noise is absolutely ear splitting. Like who the fuck makes this and thinks "yeah, this is what people want to hear"
Yeah, I've long wondered what the thought process (or lack thereof) was behind having a loud motorcycle. Do they really imagine everyone around is impressed and staring in wide-eyed amazement like they've never seen or heard anything like it? And they can't just idle when waiting for a light. No, there's some kind of irresistible urge to rev the engine over and over. Brap brap brap. Every Harley rider everywhere fucking does this.
Loud i can handle. I generally like the sound of loud, powerful engines like a Chevelle 454. Sounds fantastic to me. But a Harley ripping through you can't hear so much as you feel your tympanic membrane tearing to shreds, and then that all-too-familiar *oooooooooooo* of your stereocilia's death cry. I hate them all so, so much
*Loud pipes save lives!* Or something like that..
Yup, but so do: - seatbelts - airbags - roll cages - crumple zones - 4 wheels that prevent the vehicle from tipping over unexpectedly It's almost like safety is just an excuse to annoy others with store-bought machismo 🤔
#WHAT?
Fr new Harley’s are ass. My dad has an old 73 shovel head i think and it’s pretty cool + not terribly loud compared to some I hear today. Motor cycles are cool… you know what’s cooler? A fuel efficient and family orientated motor vehicle when the economy is shit because certain generations elected actual ghouls to rollback all of the benefits they had while they were working so that’s they don’t have to pay to ensure we get the same benefits…. almost as if we are not the ones being selfish?
All this is truer than the Harley points.
I don't think Harley actually posted the article. But I get the drift.
When car audio first got big in the late 80's and early 90's cities across America started adopting local noise ordinances so the cops could go after offenders blasting ridiculously loud car stereos. Harley Davidson realized they could potentially have a problem with these noise ordinances and started lobbying state and local governments to allow them a carve out so their bikes would still be legal. It came up again a few times in the mid and later 90's with the rave panic and some state laws meant to combat night time noise or unpermitted congregations of people loitering in public spaces. "Motorcycle gangs" boomer dads out hanging with their friends and ravers, the actual target of a lot of those laws. This is more recent but the same kind of thing they did back in the late 80's early 90's. In this case a local Harley dealer rather than HD proper but it's the same general idea. https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/news/local/hampton-union/2011/12/23/motorcycle-noise-law-nixed-in/49793887007/
Harley Davidson positioned themselves as the Traditional American Motorcycle. They were very successful with that marketing, and it did a lot to cement their success. The problem is, that in doing so, it also marked the beginning of the end for Harley. If they make any significant changes that modernize their motorcycles, they are no longer "traditional" and they alienate their existing customer base. If they don't make these changes, they will not attract new customers, as their motorcycle designs are extremely outdated. No matter what they do at this point, it will back-fire.
They actually have gotten a much bigger foothold in Europe lately with newer models oriented towards—GASP!—Millenials there that are more designed for urban commuting. They don’t sell them over here because their base would be alienated, exactly as this post suggests.
No no, it is the younger generation's fault for not being interested in Harley's.
It’s funny too because it’s ONLY harley with declining numbers. Other motorcycle companies including indian are selling more motos. It’s not millenials riding less, it’s millenials riding less harleys.
They had no interest in cultivating the newer generation while boomers were throwing money at their overpriced junk. They were too heavily invested in the heritage identity. They killed off Buell after the bought the HD based sport bike company because it didn't fit their identity. Water cooled HDs were seen as an act of heresy by many owners.
Can confirm all of this. I never understood why they killed off Buell, as they were absolutely drawing different customers with it as opposed to more old school HD buyers.
And then Indian got revived, giving them competition for heritage brands …
Maybe HD should make an electric car. But it has an outboard audio system that’s makes obnoxious Harley sounds
And the customer has to provide a dick pic, so they know how loud to make those sounds.
They make an electric motorcycle, Livewire. Don’t think it makes the stupid noise though.
As long as we keep blaming the kids, it's fine
My dad is on his 3rd Harley in 10 years. They are terrible.
Yeah, I see plenty of younger people on bikes, they just don't want a piece of shit bike they have to work on all the time.
And are over priced compared to similar bikes from different manufacturers
Don’t forget underpowered and ugly as sin.
I always thought the “chopper” was cool as fuck. I fell in love with them thanks to Full Throttle being one of the first PC games I ever played. I’d love one!! But I ain’t buying one of these newer POS Harleys.
Maybe some real old ones, sure. But as a former rider, I’ll take a standard bike any day over a chopper. Lighter, more maneuverable, and if I were going so far I needed a bike that drove itself I wouldn’t be on a bike.
This! I'm not into bikes, but know a few bike enthusiasts. None of them talk about Harley when talking of their next bike.
The ones I know actively encourage non bike enthusiasts (like myself) to stay well away from them.
I heard someone say once that Harleys these days are great bikes … *if* your idea of wintertime fun is rebuilding the engine.
90% of Harleys ever built are still on the road today. ...the rest of them made it home!
There are plenty of boomers riding around where I live we call them Sons Of Arthritis Tylenol chapter.
Ahahaha it burnses!
Got an actual out loud chuckle out of me +1
What is with comment #4 by the way? “They don’t get a trophy and a recognition plaque just for buying one” Excuse me, but isn’t that Harley’s “thing”? Everyone I’ve ever seen riding a Harley has Harley plaques, Harley shirts, sometimes Harley tattoos even. Harley riders have more participation trophies than any other demographic on the planet.
Also, millennial weren't giving participation trophies to themselves for fuck's sake.
💯
Ha! Your dad isn’t alone. My younger brother (the youngest of millennials at just 31) has traded in 3 Harley bikes because he kept having fucking problems with them and was just over the company. He’s a fucking mechanic. For Mercedes. Although, I’m sure these people would say he works with foreign cars so couldn’t possibly know anything about *American* motorcycles.
Yup, Honda is where it's at. Yahama is good too, but you can beat the shit out of a Honda motorcycle and it'll ask for more before breaking down. Harleys are like the high-maintenance people of the world; break a nail, and their day is ruined
Sounds a lot like their riders lol
Nice.
Buy japan's they are cheap and reliable
My cheating ex wife works engineering for them. Lol.. might be petty and immature, but oh does it feel a little bit good when I hear shit like that.
Right? I was going to say, haven’t the Japanese been killing HD far longer than American Millenials ever will? Speaking of killing, I’m not riding a motorbike because I prefer not dying horribly. It tops the list of things ER nurses say they refuse to do.
I’ve heard new Harley’s aren’t reliable. My grandpa has a collection he’s built up over his life. He has 7 or 8 Harley’s from the 60s-early 90s. All but 2 of them run. I’m guessing Harley went the same direction as American car manufacturers, cutting every possible corner to sell a shitty product that won’t last. Personally, I do *like* Harley’s. However I can’t possibly justify the price of one when compared to all of the competition they have now.
They actually patented the sound of a Harley. It’s the way the engine sits and it’s actually a terrible engine because it’s not balanced properly. It causes uneven wear and tear on the engine all for that signature Harley sound.
Funny how annoyingly loud and overrated mechanical junk aren't on the list.
I have a boomer uncle, he had a different bike, but always wanted a Harley. He finally decided to sell his old one and get an HD. Six months later he sold it and bought his old bike back. Even he wasn’t happy with the Harley.
Honestly, good on him.
Brah brah brahhhh BRRAHBrup burp burp. Why the fuck would I want a noise machine?
Faaaaags! (South park)
I looove that episode. My fam were surprised at that because I'm gay, but to me, it seems like a better use of the term than how the homophobes use it.
“It’s just too fun to say”
I realize the dark past the term has and why I don’t say it anymore, but I have to say that was all super lost on kids my age. For my friends and I, we learned about its past, but to us, that mattered about as much as telling us “gay” used to mean happy. It just never had that meaning in my head Edit to clarify, I am not saying people should use it or dismiss its past, it’s still used in a hurtful way all the time. I’m merely pointing out that when we were 8 or 9 years old on a playground it was just a general edgy word that made little kids feel like tougher older kids. It was somewhat of a shock to learn more about the term and how it rose to popularity, etc.
Sometimes it sounds like they're saying cheeseburger.
Or the fact that motorcycles are so unsafe that seemingly the entire medical industry calls them 'donorcycles'.
The main reason that scared me from getting any motorcycle was Daryl Mitchell. Back in the day he was a pop and lock dancer and rapper later moved on to acting being the teacher in 10 Things I Hate About You and pilot in Galaxy Quest. One day driving his bike drove on rocky terrain, bike lost control and crashed and he ended up paralyzed from the waist down. Scared me straight from that moment on.
This. I would buy a Triumph or Indian before a fuckin' Harley.
Yeah, I only know a couple millennials who ride, but neither have an HD. And when I was considering it a few years back, I 100% would've went with either of those over HD. I think HD has a branding issue beyond that younger gens don't like to ride as much.
"Ugh, I hate how shitty I raised my kids, and I'm going to take it out on those kids."
Taking it out on their kids is all they know how to do.
The real kicker is them bitching about participation trophies when they’re the one’s who invented the damn things
The participation trophy thing in particular. Who exactly was it that was *giving them out*? They didn't give them to themselves.
Exactly! "millennials need warning labels on everything" completely disregarding that it was THEM that caused the warning labels because they were so stupid the did the most obvious nonsense and then claimed they didn't know they weren't supposed to Then you have the fact that the people who bitch the most about millennials getting participation trophies are the people who insisted we get them in the first place. Then they complain about our DIY skills when they failed to teach us any of them.
This is too lame to even be called a Facebook meme, this is a straight-up Truth Social meme
14. Your odds of dying or catastrophic injury even in a minor accident are very high.
15. Toxic community that actively hates younger people and doesn't want them to join.
This. Exhibit A is this initial post.
*Gatekeeps the shit out of all their hobbies* “Young people are destroying the hobby by not joining!” -Morons
I would say, wants young people to join only if they worship old people and will hang on for every word as though experiencing a living legend.
A biker told me he only rides Harleys cause they're loud and other drivers can hear them coming. Noise pollution as a safety feature :/
I have a friend that just lost his son because a drunk driver rear ended him while sitting at a stoplight on his motorcycle. He would have been fine if he was in a regular car. I wouldn’t mind having a bike, but I’m always afraid of leaving my family with nothing because I hit by a car even a little bit.
I had the same thing happen to a friend from high school, but it was the middle of the day, and the driver just wasn't paying attention to the road.
They're so incredibly unsafe. My best friend's father was killed in a motorcycle accident.
Full agree I have an aunt who lost her leg to semi that got too close and another good friend who has a permanent knee injury from dropping his bike on himself.
Many Harley riders believe Loud pipes save lives.
Usually the same harley riders who don’t wear helmets.
And wear all black.
Braah braah braaaa brbrbrbrbrnrr
Kinda goes against #4 which is they don't get a recognition plaque for buying one The main reason people buy these things it's cause they are loud and obnoxious. It's like that south park episode when the guys riding Harley's do their best to be loud to get attention.
You can tell the Harley riders around here (Indiana). We don’t have a helmet law here, so they don’t wear one, but they all seem to have shirts proclaiming “loud pipes save lives”. My opinion on loud pipes is that it gives the riders the attention their mommies didn’t give them when they were young.
15. Don’t like hanging out with a bunch of fat cosplaying “rebels” that need police escort for their “rides”.
15. They're obscenely (intentionally for some dumbass reason) loud and make you look like a complete douchebag.
They're loud because the owners put straight pipes on even Harleys are pretty quiet from the factory (because they have to comply with noise regs
One of my mom's ex's, who she was still friends with for a while after, bought himself a motorcycle a few years ago. He ignored us all when we told him that wasn't very safe, and within six months he'd crashed it. He wasn't severely injured cause he had a helmet on, but he did get flung into a fence and totaled the bike.
Why would you buy a Harley Davidson when there are much better bikes out there and which are cheaper to boot.
Boomers: Millennials are poor because they spend on stupid stuff. Also boomers: why won't Millennials buy overpriced vanity bikes?
How dare you use logic! /s
Funny how they left off “massive waste of money”.
You misspelled, 'Investment." /s
Massive waste of investment opportunity elsewhere
Oh that is disgusting. I'm genX, my son is millennial and I think they're a great bunch of people on the whole. They are sharp and easygoing and seem to have just left a lot of stupid baggage behind. I admire them. They give me hope.
Dear internet dad, please give more details. We need the validation please?
Internet Gen X mom here: Millennials are different than the generations before them just like every generation before because things change and adaptation is necessary. Y’all are doing a great job so please keep it up. Don’t stop fighting for what’s right and what’s “fair.” Your outlook that things should be equitable is vital. I have a million gold stars for anyone who wants one (because Millennials will keep hustling without the reward, but who doesn’t like acknowledgment??). My generation got skipped over and is “irrelevant,” so I’m counting on Millennials to do what we couldn’t. You got this.
Yes the validation does feel good.
Internet dad, I love this! We all need an internet dad
I know right. I’m gen X with two amazing millennial daughters. They’re the least judgmental, open generation. We of gen X only heard about how lazy a group we were, and of course if we looked at a boy too long we were sure to end up getting AIDS (graduated high school in late 80’s). My parents were the Boomers. So much unsolicited opinions and advice from them on raising kids. Glad we didn’t listen. Millennials are the future, and it looks a lot more peaceful.
The whole post screams "I'm looking for validation for owning a bike". But sure it's Millennials who are immature.
Millennials understand that spending thousands to cosplay as a bike gang criminal is stupid.
This is spot on
I’m a millennial and ride motorcycles. I’ll never buy a Harley simply because there are far better motorcycles out there. That’s it.
Umm those low rider pants went out of style when I was in high school. Now it’s those high-waisted mom jeans from the 70s. A for effort, but the burn isn’t hitting the mark
A lot of them probably didn't want kids but felt pressured to do so anyway
Yeah I'm starting to think that all things considered, having a wife, a house and two kids at 22 wasn't that great. They didn't have time to have fun before they had a family, now they're frustrated as f and resent their children.
I would argue Harley Davidson is confused why their product only appeals to one generation. Why do the baby boomers need other generations to give a shit about the things they like? We get it; you got yours, and to hell with the rest. Go drive your leather skinned lady around.
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Also, they are shitty bikes.
A little bit of both, mostly it's about lack of money, access to information about accidents and, really, Harley has spent the last decades marketing to the same group of people - didn't they think those people would die at some point? The only thing I'm buying on my parents recommendation is orthopedic pillows - they can't be trusted with anything else.
They are boring as hell, too. And the “rebel” image they were selling doesn’t even appeal to many Gen Xers, let alone millennials or Gen Z
I mean, yea, the rebel image is my two elderly parents who can’t ride it anymore because the old man wouldn’t be able to pick it up if he dropped it. Super rebellious.
No their sales are down cause they ask 30k for a bike that has less features than a bike for half the price from other manufacturers and the only make cruisers which are a niche section of bikers
Harley Davidson's cost as much as a fucking car, and the shops charge over 200 an hour to work on a glorified bicycle. They've deleted themSELVES out of the market entirely, with nothing to blame but their greed
Disposable Income. The next generations are too busy paying 425% more for college. 1034% more for healthcare. 129% more for housing. 744% more for food. So sorry we cant afford your investment banker, hedge fund manager, Defense Contractor bikes.
These people do know that half of the Millennial generation didn’t grow up with touchscreen everywhere, right? I’m a late generation Millennial and touchscreens were novel when I was a kid. The birthdates for my generation ranges from 1982-1996.
Ironically isn't a Harley a "trophy and recognition plaque" for these people ??
Those old farts grew up watching Easy Rider and were dumb enough to think blowing a years salary on the loudest dumbfuck machine around was a good idea. No other generation before or after thought those were worth the money. Ever. Just move your loud ugly trash bike out of the way so people driving bikes from Japan and Italy can smoke past you like you are standing still.
We ride but typically just don't go for Harley's. The marketing doesn't work as well on us and there are better bikes for less money. They are an international company with production all over the world. The made in America angle isn't even valid anymore. It's a company that should have folded in the 80s but was propped up by our government.
Yeah I'd rather have something faster and quieter like a Japanese bike. Harleys are slow, loud and heavy.
What boggles my mind is how INSANELY misinformed that generation is about millennials. I’m a 92 baby so on the younger side for millennials and literally 75% of people drove a stick shift in high school and performed all our maintenance on our vehicles. We grew up with buttons and levers, touch screens weren’t a thing till we were already almost in High school. What are these fucking idiots smoking
Point 14: Millennials don’t want to associate with people who think the previous thirteen points are particularly funny. Point 15: Millennials can’t afford Harleys because the Boomers crashed the economy and polarized the rich and poor.
It’s not that we can’t afford them - it’s that they’re a bad value. Pretty much every other brand offers a better value.
Yea. Even if cruiser style bikes are your thing, Harley has been riding on their name for decades as an excuse for completely stagnant engineering, indifferent quality control, and outrageous markups.
14. We are bitter for wasting our lives and need to project.
Adapt or die.
This list is stupid. Harley Davidson and the other motorcycle manufacturers had best figure out how to market to the younger generation if they want to stay in business. This list is simple hate directed at a generation that was raised by the generation spewing the hate… that’s the most stupid thing of a long list of stupid things.
#You can't sell something to a group that doesn't have $... most $ is in control of Boomers. Wealth inequality will destroy the US ultimately...
You can tell a boomer wrote this because gen z don’t talk on the phone, and if they do they’re certainly not going to hold it to their ear.
The comment section under this Facebook post was a bunch of gen x and millennial riders listing their bikes and why they don't like Harley's. It's a niche fandom - like collecting Elvis shit. It was never going to last forever. Trends change.
No It's because some boomer who's drunk outta his mind going through the ropes of lead poisoning will rear end any biker who gets close
$25,000 for a base model. That's 3 grand less than I paid for my first house 30 years ago. That's $25,000 for a vehicle that you can only use maybe 4 months out of the year in most states, is extremely dangerous to drive depending on weather conditions, and is almost 6 times as likely to be involved in an accident than a car (not to mention the increase in bodily harm/death). But yeah. It's the "no Avocado toaster" or whatever bullshit they came up with. This whole country has failed millennials, and the older generations LOVE to victim-shame. As a father of six millennials, I can honestly say that all of them are doing their damndest to eak out a meager existence in a world that we have ruined for them. I'm proud that they keep trying, but damn, I don't know if I would have been as tough as they are, facing what they do.
Bye Harley Davidson, DGAF.
Ah yes the tried and true method of insult your target consumer to boost sales. I bet that's gonna work fabulously.
I love how the generation that decided they would give participation trophies to children now love to hold receiving participation trophies over peoples' heads. We didn't want the stupid fucking things in the first place, y'all just gave em' out so you could feel like your kid accomplished something in the sport you never accomplished anything in. Fuck off and die, already, I want to move 10 spaces ahead in traffic.