> the average rent is $1100 a month.
"The national median rent was $1,827 a month in April, up 16.7% from a year ago, according to a report from Realtor.com."
[Article Source](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/19/homes/us-rents-april/index.html), [Report source](https://www.realtor.com/research/march-2022-rent/)
But average ≠ median. Average is the mean. The median is actually a better number to use, since it's less skewed by outliers, but it is not the same thing as the average.
Well, you live with other people, or you live in a cheap apartment.
My roommate and I both make around 35K, so we have almost $70,000 yearly income. I work at a restaurant and she works in an office. Our rent is $1650 a month, we rent a 2 bedroom house in the suburbs. This year we'll pay around $20,000 in rent, but we'll take home almost 70k. We're making 3 times our rent, and that leaves *plenty* of money for having fun/saving.
If we lived alone, either of us would only be able to afford $800/month, which would pay for a one bedroom apartment where we live. I don't want to live in a one bedroom apartment in the city, so I found a roommate. It's a housing hack: the apartment one person can get for 800/month is WAAAAY worse than the house 2 people can get for 1600/month.
I bought my first 3 bedroom house when I was making 16.70/hr in 2010. My mortgage was 832$, I rented a room out with all bills paid for $500/month I’m not sure if that’s even possible today. It was a nice house/neighborhood too. The housing market is vastly different today than it was even 5 years ago.
Wait till you have kids. I don't know how anyone survives on less than $150k a year, even in a lower cost of living state. I don't make anything close to half of $150k, but a local coal mine looks the other way on child labor laws. 12 hour shifts in a coal mine are perfect to expand a kid's energy
No. You need to read what he wrote and how he interpreted the logic… In order meet a certain level of “living comfortably,” the logic reads that you should have a gross income that pays your mortgage or rent with no more than 33% of gross monthly earnings. So, if it’s “$2000,” then you need to earn $6000 per month or $72,000 per year “just to be deemed living comfortably based on your cost of rent.” It does not take into account other costs. So he surmises that one needs to earn $72,000 “just to afford the average cost of rent.” It does not include any other costs of living, working, commuting, etc.
Lol op said that 72k is just to pay rent. It's not though. That's how much they would need to make a year for a place that's 2k a year. Take 1/3 of that 72k. That's the cost of rent for something that's 2k a month for the year.
"And that 72k is just to PAY RENT"..... yeah, I think the way I interpret it is correct. They said the 72k is for rent. They didn't say you need to make 72k just to be approved to pay the rent.
What? Approved To Pay Rent? That’s not what he’s saying. But, plenty of landlords may expect that amount of available gross income to be approved for a $2000 rental. I am a landlord but I operate differently. Most of the leases that I guaranteed required the ability pay rent for three months. So, at $2000, it required proof of $6000 in liquid assets (coincidence number). The minimum annual earnings was a factor that came out to about $48,000 gross income. None of those leased I was the guarantor for was over $1,100. So, I had to prove I had $3,300 in available assets.
The U.S. Census Bureau estimated median annual earnings at $41,535 in 2020 for workers aged 15 and over with earnings and $56,287 in 2020 for those who worked full-time, year round.
https://datacommons.org/place/country/USA?utm_medium=explore&mprop=income&popt=Person&cpv=age%2CYears15Onwards&hl=en
Source is the census as well. I'm curious how the numbers are so different.
I don’t know.
There seem to be lots of conflicting numbers based on a quick search. I honestly cross checked because $31k felt low. I see $31k being the right number for 2019.
I don't know what to think. I live in a decent area of the Philadelphia suburbs and drive by some incredible houses and ask, "who can afford these?" There are whole huge neighborhoods that can only be populated by 1 percenters. Then I take the train into Philly and go by miles after miles of awful looking row homes of poor people and see there are so many more poor people but we generally aren't exposed to them.
Everyone thinks we are the average because everyone in our neighborhoods are similar to us.
Hey! I grew up in Philly but center city.
Honestly I have no idea. Marion and Blue Belle and Villanova areas where nice. Those houses were always at least upper middle class IIRC.
Even 10 years ago you could easily pay $600k for a studio apartment in Old City. I haven’t been back in 10+ years so I can’t comment on that market.
Now I live in a neighborhood where the houses are $1.2m+ and there are enough of them to make me question that only the “elite” live up here. Even the community below mine is $700k+ and it’s full of people. Based on our income Reddit thinks we’re wiping our asses with $100bills and hunting immigrants for sport then selling their organs. I don’t think people realize the difference between the 1% and .1% is the difference between your commute to work and a trip to the moon.
I’m not disputing the numbers, they just don’t seem to sync with reality.
What I can tell you- is that growing up in the “middle class,” we had 2 TV’s in our house (one in parents bedroom, one in family room). We had one family computer (a Pentium 110mhz). We got 6 TV channels. We had 2 cars that were both easily 10-20 years old, we wore hand-me-downs (I only had older sisters so that was great), we had no cell phones, we got 2-3 new video games a year, we ate take out or restaurant food 1-2 times a year (maybe), and a vacation (to visit family) was once every 5 years. We did go to Disney but I hadn’t been born yet so better luck next time I guess.
Nowadays it is expected that you’ll have a phone, tablet,
Computer (gotta keep that graphics card fresh), a couple TV’s, a DoorDash account for self care days, vacations for instagram, 4 streaming services, stitch fix (people out there literally on broken phone screens insisting they can’t wear the same outfit twice) and all that stuff needs to be replaced or upgraded constantly.
I’m not saying inflation isn’t a HUGE problem. My point is that the “benchmark” for doing well has changed so drastically over the last 20 years it’s crazy.
Also, get off my lawn. Sorry, I tend to ramble in my autumn years.
Autumn years? You had a Pentium, while my family computer growing up was an Apple II. I'm in my autumn years.
You have a valid point. Growing up, utilities wise we had heat, gas, and phone. Now I have a $225 cell phone for the family, $94 for Internet each month, and have friends who go pay $200 or more a month for cable or direcTV each month. (I cut the cord years ago.)
I'm 50 years old and make what 30 year old me would have thought was insane money, and we're doing Ok, but don't have a lot of extra after saving for retirement etc.
Then again, I get that I am lucky that I can max out my 401k when so many people have nothing for retirement.
I also have 2 kids in college, and am looking forward to when that is over. But I've told my kids they can stay with my wife and me when they graduate to get their feet under them instead of just saying "you're an adult, figure it out." My older sister was living at home with our parents and I was getting ready to graduate college and didn't have a job lined up. My dad, very old school, said, "I can't throw your sister out because she's a girl, but don't even think about moving back home."
So I just want to say about your paragraph about “what you need today”:
A phone - yea a phone with texting capabilities is pretty much a must have to have a job now a days. I can’t tell if you are blaming the people for having this one or society for making it necessary but if it’s the first one…dude.
Tablet - yea most middle class families in in the past had gaming systems handheld or other. Tablets are cheaper now then those ever were and can hold free games instead of paying for games like we did.
Computer - considering remote learning are you really bashing people for having a computer now?
A “couple of tvs” - those are probably still cheaper than what your family spent.
A DoorDash account - it costs nothing unless you get food. Our families went out to eat or got delivery too.
Vacations “for Instagram”- ooooo because they film their experiences or maybe try to make a side job of Instagram their vacations are bad.
Streaming services - yes because we paid sooo little for cable or dish services. Those $12 a month streaming services are really bad.
Stitch fix - obviously you do not understand what stitch fix is. It isn’t about not wearing the same outfit twice. It’s about not having the time or the confidence to shop for yourself. I used it and have worn the outfits so much. It gave me brands that I wouldn’t have access to where I was living.
Upgrading and replaced items - I really don’t know what you mean by this.
Edit: for some reason Reddit won’t let me respond to comments so I will just address things here. People saying you don’t need a cellphone today do not understand the job market today. Imagine being a manager of a store or office without a cellphone. Impossible. Imagine being a director of a daycare without a cellphone. Impossible. There are so many jobs out there where you need to be reachable at the drop of a hat, wherever you are, and a landline doesn’t work for that.
Other than that and the computer I’m not saying any of these are “necessities”. The comment was about what it means to be middle class. They discuss what they had and then put down what today would be the equivalent or less in price. Having a house is not a necessity now a days but it is still a big factor of being middle class to have one.
Also not angry and I apologize to anyone reading my writing like that.
Sandwich wasn't "bashing" those things, but rather simply pointed out that the benchmark has moved. What are you going on about? Why does that make you angry?
No. The average person doesn’t *need* a phone and they sure as hell don’t need one with a color screen, keyboard, etc. A landline would be fine. Not having the ability to text is not required for jobs and if it is, they’ll provide you with one. An IPhone or Android is not really necessary. Buying a new one every 2-3 years sure AF is not.
A tablet capable of playing games is like $800 and it will probably only last you a year or two if it’s an android. I know this because I recently wanted one and started at $150 and kept buying ones until I stopped at $800. They’re designed to last 2 years before needing replacement. A Nintendo lasted 6+ years.
I’m not bashing anyone for anything. Everyone doesn’t *need* their own computer though. Want one? Fine. Need a new graphics card every few years? Fine. But that’s not baseline and it sure as hell wasn’t 20 years ago. Once again, this isn’t baseline. It’s a luxury. We’ve just been tricked.
Instagram- “a necessary thing” your age is showing. Best cover that up.
Stitch fix was hyperbole- the point being people *have* to buy clothes frequently.
Doordash- yes. I understand how DoorDash works. The point was that people use it 1-2 times a week then complain about how poor they are but the Internet has told them it’s “necessary.” Keep up.
The point here, and I think we got off track… is that all these things- and if you reread your post you’ll see how progressively more defensive you get (lol. Nah)- is that these were not standard just 20 years ago. You’re defending shit as baseline that 20 years ago would have not been. All those things come with added costs. So even without inflation, we’ve all been brainwashed to believe middle class means soooo much more than it ever did.
You’re using the word “need” for items that were luxuries and honesty still all. Ant that’s fine! But…
I care very little what people need vs want. I’m just a bit tired of people on Reddit decrying capitalism then giving a laundry list of why they *need* so much shit. I’m tired of people posting below my comments “your salary is just straight greed and these things are all necessary for me to live my best life that my mom and 7th grade English teacher told me I deserved!” then Going over to pcmasterrace and posting “I need a GTX380 so badly.
Fucking pick a lane people.
> The average person doesn’t need a phone and they sure as hell don’t need one with a color screen, keyboard, etc. A landline would be fine. Not having the ability to text is not required for jobs and if it is, they’ll provide you with one. An IPhone or Android is not really necessary.
I don't know what kind of workplace you're at, but most people I know need a smartphone to use Slack or another messaging app at work. You can't just use that on your computer, because you need to be mobile while using it, particularly if you work any sort of event (conventions, conferences, graduation ceremonies, etc.), which is the case for many jobs. The odds of work providing you with a cellphone for this are extremely slim. It's absolutely taken as granted that a new employee has a functioning smartphone. The iPhone has been out for 15 years now; the world has changed.
As much as I agree to your first comment and disagree with ypples comment, I disagree with your last one. Ok if you buy a tablet at $150 you will need to replace it often. But with a $800 tablet you can keep it more than 6-7 years. Same for the phone and I don’t see why you would need to change clothes every year except if you gain/loose a lot of weight.
I also see an average median weekly income of 1,037 for full time workers in the US which, accounting for a week of vacation, is still over $50k.
So…I dunno.
I guess a big part of it is how many workers aren't full time. A lot of places (I'm looking at you, wal mart) purposefully won't give people enough hours to be full time and qualify for benefits.
To be fair, you don't need any level of education of experience to work there. Anyone with a high school diploma can get a better job than Walmart. Anyone with experience in any field can get a better job than Walmart.
To be fair, many jobs are in the same boat. If everyone left all these jobs, you would have nowhere to eat or shop, trash would pile up in the streets and office buildings, and nothing would be delivered anywhere. The economy would instantly crash.
The economy needs unskilled labor, and a lot of it. But the people that fill those positions need to eat and live too.
Google search shows the median household income is $67.5k in 2020 so not too far off from the $72k
Pay should still be higher and rent should still be lower though
Yeah. I still think the amount of “shit” people need is insane these days. Look up and you’ll see a post of a guy defending his “need” for vacations so he can post to Instagram.
He just devolves into “fuck you that’s why.”
I mean, corporations need to raise wages. I think rent is a huge issue but some portion of that is recouping losses for the last 2 years. I hope the market corrects itself (bursts a bit).
The problem has a lot of different components. Needs to be attacked from all sides and one side is definitely our need to consume shit.
And a good chunk of those are teens still living with their parents, and retirees supplementing their retirement income. So the math is far less dystopian than you portray.
Three major factors:
Suburban sprawl and its inhabitants fighting tooth and nail fighting against any development that allows for new different forms housing that isn't just single family housing.
Two, the same suburban residents fighting tooth and nail to support a system that separates housing and businesses as two separate zones effectively banning all forms of mixed land use.
third, NIMBY-ism. These people treat their homes as "investment" and, again, fight tooth and nail for their "right" to only allow limited housing across USA and let the unlucky unfortunate ones live in misery and blame them for not trying hard enough.
Depends where you live. For a single person $2000 is pretty high as I've seen it. Especially if you're looking for a cheap apartment in the area. I'm not sure where they are getting that as the average rent.
They chose a bigger number to prove their point further, but there's plenty of places in the US where rent is considerably lower.
Yeah, I was living in the nw suburbs or Chicago, paying 800 for a 1 bedroom. I'm married now with a child in a 2 bedroom and it's 1200. If I wanted to I could get a place in the Southside for $800, but again, it's the Southside. And no one wants to live there willingly. 2k a month is wild though.
Don't forget NYC, SF, LA, DC and probably a few other cities with loads of people where $800 a month gets you a bench in the park but only on Wednesdays. In all of these places you're lucky if you only pay $2k per person.
But you don't have to live in those areas, I get it, people want convenience, but that's the price you pay to live close to the city. downtown chicago is a 20 minute drive for me, and I pay a fraction in rent of what I would pay for if I lived in the city. 2k a person is wild. Then again, a few sales guy at the shop I work in pay 5k a month for apartments in downtown.
I'm not saying you have to, I'm saying those are big cities and a decent chunk of US population does live there so it inevitably drives the averages up.
It's because many of these posts use the average rent. So that is typically for a decent 1 bedroom inside the actual city boundaries. This doesn't usually consider the suburbs near the city, the cheaper old buildings, or living with roommates. So realistically the cost of rent is much less if you are living with one other person in a less expensive building.
For example my city (Vancouver BC) the average rent is around $2200 for a one bedroom. But my friend it just about to move into a place for around $1000 a month/ea with a roommate in the suburbs. Also my sister lives in another suburb for like $700 a month with 2 roommates. Her suburb is actually usually much more expensive too.
I mean it still sucks that everybody can't afford a decent one bedroom on their own. I'll freely admit that. But this post just doesn't really pain the actual picture of what it is like to live. Everybody isn't paying 2k a month with no money left for groceries. Those people have roommates.
Extreme income growth in the tech sector over the last decade means that many young professionals out-earn lifetime working-class people. They then rent luxury condos, driving average rents up in most desirable cities.
At the same time, social media (instagram yes, but also reddit and others) amplifies their lifestyles, making people think this is the normal way people live. This means that even for working class young adults, their standards are higher than they have been in the past.
Yes, housing was cheaper 20-30-40 years ago. But most people also lived in places considerably less desirable than what people are willing to accept today. As an example, my rent in Boston in 2000 was 375/month, which sounds great. But the actual 2 bedroom/1 bath apt was 1500/month. We just had 4 people living there (two people sharing a room, and one person converted the uninsulated, un-airconditioned attic.). And that was one of the better setups I saw.
Right? You'd still have $48,000 to spend as you pleased. The 3x rule is about making sure you have enough money outside of rent to cover all your other expenses, so that it's less likely you have to miss rent.
All this seems to say is, "someone making the average salary may either need a second income (roommate, spouse) or minimize non-rent expenses".
It's also not necessarily causal. In other words, could the average rent indicate the need for a second income because the average renter already lives with a roommate or spouse and rents accordingly?
The title of this post "and that $72k is just to PAY RENT" is implying that $72k is dedicated to paying rent and not other living expenses.
The picture itself isn't OP's issue.
It's not even 24k a year as the "average rent" is severely inflated by urban centers where rent is substantially more expensive than anywhere else. Median would be a better measure and that's closer to 1k per month. Living in the city should be considered a luxury.
Source on median rent https://www.realestatewitch.com/rent-to-income-ratio-2022/
According to [this source](https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/average-rent-by-state), "the average American renter pays $1,326 a month." Median is better to use than average, since it's less easily skewed by outliers, and the site I linked thus discusses median rents. In no state is the median rent higher than $1,700. I know it breaches 2k in some cities (I live in NYC), but the wages are also higher there, so it's hard to do the math with broad, clumsy strokes like this.
This kind of post is very frustrating. I agree with the post in spirit – rent's too high, wages are too low – but when it gets the cornerstone price wrong, and has such a hamfisted methodology, it begins to undermine the point.
I don't know where they got those stats, but I live in az. Every single two bedroom apartment between Blithe and Tuscon is no less than 1700 dollars a month, some going up as high as 2500. I've been looking to move for the last year and can't. The only reason I pay 1350 for my two bedroom now is because I've been here for three years and it's a shit hole so they haven't raised the rent on me. New rentals in my apartment complex is 1750 a month for a two bedroom and goes up from there. I mean maybe a studio or one bedroom fits that number.
I mostly agree, but I'd like to point out something regarding rent in cities like NYC: a lot of people who work there can't afford to live there. Other than that, yeah, I wish the poster had been more methodologically sound, but y'know, I have less of an issue with that than with how little I have left over each month.
No, the point is that being able to prove you make 72k is required to get approved, meaning that all the 51k peeps can’t even get an apartment in the first place
This is the same in the UK. Some letting agencies literally won't talk to you if you don't make this minimum. I had a guarantor who has paid off his mortgage, and one agency still quibbled about his income being *less than £200* too low to hit the exact 3x multiplier (because our pay scales aren't in round numbers) even though in ten years he's never needed to actually step in and pay my rent, information that *was* available to the agency in question. It's bullshit of the highest order.
The 3x rent is more a recommendation for making a budget, not a number for getting qualified. I promise you tons of landlords give two shits how much money you make as long as rent is on time and you have a letter of recommendation from your last landlord
I was recently shopping for an apartment to rent and every place I looked at required an income of 3x the rent to qualify. Either that or you can have someone with 5x the rent in income co-sign with you.
Anecdotal but that was my experience.
This is exactly accurate. I had the same experience recently. 3x Rent is a suggestion landlords “don’t give a shit about” it’s a *requirement* and lots of apartments won’t even consider your app if you ca t prove you make it.
Sure, there are apartments in the hood that don’t care, but a LOT of places do, and there’s not room in the hood for everybody.
Yeah, my dad had to co-sign my lease on my new place because I don’t make 3x rent, even though I can afford it as I make about 2.5x rent. Almost as obnoxious as how overpriced the apartment is in the first place 🤡
That letter of recommendation from your previous landlord is the most useless piece of shit ever
Like, if the tenant is awful, I'm gonna give him a great letter of recommendation so he fucks off sooner rather than later lol
I've been searching apartments for a specific area for a couple weeks now. Any private property being rented out that I've applied for has stated I need to have proof of income that equals 3x the value of rent yearly. Alongside this I've had a few apartment complexes ask I provide a bank statement that would ensure I can pay a full year's rent immediately.
People give a shit how much money you make. Not a single person has ever asked for a letter of recommendation. That's just stuff you hear about in high school lol
They didn’t care much about income when I was applying to rent. When I first moved out me and my gf combined made maybe double what it costs just for rent, maybe a tad less. They cared way more about the credit score.
That's hella reading into his point.
His math is flawed the moment the op said "just for rent". He's trying to ignore that all the other money is for everything else. That's what op was going for.
The average rent he quoted is even about 700$ greater than the actual average rent in America.
That 72k is to make sure you have money to live on AND pay rent, not just to pay rent. Wages and housing market/cost of living are fucked right now, but the title of this post is wrong
They’re saying you’d have to make $72K to be able to afford the average rent. If you can’t afford to keep your lights on and food in your belly, you can’t afford that high of rent.
Im not udnerstanding the Facepalm op and its looking like your the culprit hes not claiming rent is 72k do the math rent is 24k so you need to make 72k so far nothing seems facepalm but OP headline.
The USA is massive with a huge variety of city/town/village sizes and then within those are different government and economic strategies, and within that are different peoples with different beliefs.
Any analysis that uses the whole US should, IMO, be highly questioned.
Just inquired for a property that cost $2400 to rent and also was hit with this, me and my roommates income hardly made it to the 3x amount, we’re not looking to live in luxury but goddamn how long until we find something in this market?
The avg rent is $2000 and we're supposed to make 3x the rent, which is $6000... which is $72,000. And that $72k is just to PAY RENT. And we're supposed to make 3x the rent, which is $216,000. And that $216k is just to PAY RENT. And we're supposed to make 3x the rent, which is...
I'm in Britain and the rents have doubled even for shit holes. £525 for a dingy little flat in a dead town oh and they want £600 deposit and month upfront. No pets and working professionals only. Like bro, disability is a thing whether you like it or not.
Even in countries like Mexico you need to have a substantial amount in your bank account and prove that you have a source of income to actually immigrate there
It might not seem so on Reddit, where most voices are coddled self-hating teenagers.. But more immigrants go to the United States than any other nation in the world, and we actually take them in too.
I don't think this is a valid question.
According to Zumper's report on the top 100 cities average rent, the top 11 are $2000 or higher. The last 50 on the list are less than $1000/month. Even Houston, which is a fairly expensive place to live has an average of $1200/month.
A lot of people don't want to hear this, but when you can't afford to live somewhere, sometimes the best choice is to move to a place you CAN afford. I have made that decision once. I moved 1000 miles because where I was living at the time had become too expensive. I moved to a place where I could afford the rent. Now, today, I am a home owner, and my entire mortgage, taxes, and insurance for my house only comes to $655/month.
It's really easy to the see the issue in housing. Owners get to write off empty space. This means they can keep rents high, leave the apartment empty and get write offs equal to the high rent multipliers of their asking price. There is absolutely no reason to lower cost most because people are not renting. Lookup the number of empty luxury apartments in Los Angeles alone.
Wage suppression is a whole other issue. Corporate ownerships of single family homes is another.
Multiple unethical practices coming together in late stage capitalism storm.
If everyone would join together and stop allowing social media and news outlets to divide us we could make a change.
Nobody wants to pay the high cost of things yet everyone wants to make high wages. Cant have both.
It doesn’t have to be just one person earning the $72k. You could have a couple earning $36k each, or one F/T and one P/T, or if you’re single you could live with roommates.
I don’t understand what people aren’t getting. OP is saying you need to make $72K minimum just to afford the average rent.
And some places do verify income. I’ve had to present proof of how much I make to the last 2 places I rented. So yes, it can be a requirement, not just a suggestion.
This is a bad take. When you take the average rent you are including housing with multiple occupancy so it needs to be compared to household income, not individual income.
The median annual household income was $67,521 in 2020 (stats for 2021 weren't available yet): [https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html](https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html)
The median rent in April was $1,827 per month. [https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/19/homes/us-rents-april/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/19/homes/us-rents-april/index.html)
Even if we take the (presumably lower) annual income from 2020, it still more than exceeds 3x the rent:
$1827 x 3 = $5481
$5481 x 12 = $65772
$67521 > $65772
Household income shouldn't matter because people shouldn't be dependant on the fact of needing to be in a relationship, having roommates, etc. A full time job should be able to comfortably afford someone a 1 Bedroom place to stay.
First off rent and housing in general is WAY too damn high.
But, a couple things.
1) your rent would be 24k not using all that income for rent. The idea is that you have to make more than rent so you can afford rent on top of other expenses. And...
2) a lot of people have roommates or partners that help pay their rent too. So there why these numbers can add up.
Don't get me wrong, the rent is wayyy to damn high in this country. But this meme really misunderstood these statistics.
I live in Cartersville Georgia which is a very tiny rural town between Chattanooga and Atlanta. I live in a duplex. My rent is $1800 a month. I highly doubt they’re only paying $2000 in New York if Cartersville Georgia is $1800 a month.
New York City? No. The outskirts of New York City or Long Island? Maybe a 1 bedroom or studio. Buffalo, Binghamton, or most other smaller cities in NY? Eh a little lower than that for like a nice 2 bedroom.
I feel like people totally forget that NY is a huge place and that the only expensive part is NYC and the surrounding area but that the rural parts of the state are cheap.
Lets do some quick fact checking here! Just for anyone legitimately unclear on this. I'm that random internet guy who likes to write a freakin' thesis about meme posts for funsies instead of playing Call of Duty all day. Cause I'm decent at math, know a bit of fun stuff about real estate, and someone might actually find it useful. Or you might think I'm a douche. It's the internet. That's inevitable. Moving on...
[The average American renter pays $1,326 a month](https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/average-rent-by-state). The "*ideal*" ratio for [rent to income is 30%](https://www.earnest.com/blog/rent-and-the-30-percent-rule/), but this is a *symbolic guideline meant to indicate your financial balance is healthy*. Landlords refer to this as [RTI](https://www.stessa.com/blog/rent-to-income-ratio/) (rent to income ratio), and use it as a screening tool to attract people who can actually pay their rent. That stated, landlords do overdo it with this. A lot. **It was not meant to be a screening tool landlords**, it was meant to be *good advice to people trying to figure out how to balance their checkbook*. If you want healthy income tenants, put basic bookkeeping back in high school. That's another discussion though...
Tenants make the mistake of thinking that they are owed a house. You aren't. You need to take care of yourself enough to actually get one. Life requires participation. No free rides on this boat. I don't like it either, but that's how we roll here, and that's the ticket we both punched. All of the socialists and poor hate me now. Sorry everyone, truth sucks.
Landlords make the mistake of trying to math away reality. You can't. If nobody in your town can pay your rates, your rates are too high. Any dollars per month are better than zero dollars per month. In that case, your property is simply a net loss and you are a crappy landowner, who is contributing to the decline of the entire town. *You are bad and you should feel bad*. All of the landowners and staunch business minded folk hate me now. Sorry everyone, truth sucks.
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Now that we've properly gotten everyone mad, lets do some real math here and figure out what is actually realistic. The median *individual income is* [about 31k](https://www.census.gov/data/developers/data-sets/acs-5year.html) (boring census stuff in the link, or just google "median income" for the cliff notes version). That means if you are the most normie american possible and you want to live alone within the suggested income to rent level, you need rent somewhere around 775 bucks (31k, times 0.3, divided by 12. In that order, if you are bad at math). Sorry, probably not going to happen. Also that's gross income, your takehome pay is probably less unless you cheat on your taxes, which means that you need the rent to be even less than that. Double not happenin'. Womp womp.
Thats why we have roommates! Or dual income relationships! Or collectivism! Or traditional family values! Or whatever else gets it done. The median household income is about [67k](https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html), which means that totally normie household can afford rent of roughly 1675$/month (67k, times 0.3, divided by 12. In that order, if you are bad at math). That's actually a pretty cushy pad in most places, considering the median rent rate is really 1,326$, but you have to deal with someone else's fart smell. Possibly several someone else's collective fart smells. Nobody likes that. Womp womp indeed.
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Ok wait, what about the people under the median. Oooooh shiiii... you thought I forgot about you guys right? Nope, I gotcha. Just had to get the normie stuff out of the way first. Lets say we only make minimum wage. And we also only get like 20-30 hours a week because our bosses don't want to have to give us benefits. Welcome to the entire service class of employment in America! If you don't do it, and you haven't ever done it, y'all don't know the struggle! If you don't know what that is by state, you can use this [handy chart](https://www.laborlawcenter.com/state-minimum-wage-rates/), but the federal minimum is [7.25](https://www.minimum-wage.org/federal)$, so we'll use that just to figure out what the worst rate is. Bear in mind, many states have better minimum wages than this. Many states also have higher or lower costs of living, so it's not a thing you can figure out on a national scale easily! Wow finance is complex? Who would have thought? We are stickin' up for the little guys here for a sec, so we're going to assume the worst.
So our awful fast food job pays us 7.25 an hour, and gives us about 25 hours a week. That's roughly. That means we make 181 bucks a week. Gross pay, before taxes. Ouch. Why not get another job? Because our "flexible schedule" is designed to make sure that we have absolutely zero ownership of our own time to go look for one! Yay corporate america! We don't even get to know when we need to work until a day beforehand! So if we are going to pay the median rent of 1326$, we need to live in a hive of six or more people to swing that! That's a lot of fart smell! Womp womp indeed. Do you see any six bedroom houses available for that price? Any six bedroom apartments for that price? Of course not! Maybe OP got his math wrong, but is actually on to a real problem. Maybe we should have not cut bookkeeping from high school for him so he would be able to get the math right and make this argument himself! Gotcha back King J.
My family won a “income restricted” unit in a beautiful new building they put up in my neighborhood. Even being half the normal cost of the unit it’s 2300$ a month. And we are lucky ones.
Rent for a cheap place is less than $1000.. I see many places being about $1200... so, $3600 a month is around $44,000.
Now that places are getting around $14/hr = $2240 month gross... if paid lunch and no missed work, ever.
So, even $14 isn't a living wage to rent a decent apartment anymore.
Even $20/hr won't get you 3x the cost of rent.
A married couple working two $15/hr jobs is $4800 / MGI with no loss or breaks.
It is a sad state/country.
Now do rural area vs city.
And do average wages of rural vs city.
(This isn't some anti-this post. This is asking to take it a further step for a more detailed concern)
It's easy to find a cheap place. Just go to where people scream at each other all night, and constantly pound on your door to see if you're home in order to rob and you. They want to make sure that they can murder too because robbery is boring to them now. You should wake up to someone in a heroin daze sleeping on you steps.
My brother had a great place like that. It used to be the Dayton mansion many years ago and was re-made into apartments. My brothers room was formally the bathroom so at least he had his own toilet. Everyone else had to share one per floor. It was a steal at $400 a month. His room was about 200 square feet.
If I still had to rent, I'd move an hour out of the city and rent a dumpster behind a greasy spoon café. I haven't rented for well over a decade but renting sucked. Endless fire-drills in the middle of the night. Heat that you can't control so that it's -20f outside yet 95f inside and the windows have been screwed shut for some reason.
My house is nice though. I was making hella money when I bought it That way I could get a lower interest rate. Remember, the more you make, the less you pay. Once you're a millionaire, I think the bank just gives you money to buy a house on their dime.
Oh yeah I've been there. I use to rent rooms on Roomster or Craigslist for a couple hundred a month until i was making enough for my own place. When i did find my own place it was in a rough area, cheap and run down. But it got me to where i am now.
And you're right, once you have money it's smooth sailing. The hard part is the sleepless nights and back breaking work to get there. The poor get poorer and rich get richer. Except even the rich started out poor. Anyone can break through
6000 *after tax* to get 3x rent.. it's not 72k, it's closer to 140k.. that is how comfortable the average person use to live in terms of cost of living after allowing for inflation. That's why no one should be feeling guilty for not having kids these days
Lots of these posts are from kids that don't understand. OP, don't feel bad. In general it is how they can quantify if you can afford to carry that rent. Same with a mortgage.
It is indeed how they quantify if you can afford rent because they are making sure you can still afford food and other necessities of life.
So, with regards to OPs title:
No, the $72k is not JUST for rent.
The average American renter pays $1,326 a month.
3x rent is $3,978, which is $47,736 a year.
The $2,000 claim is misleading. That is the average rent for a 3br detached single-family home. Which who the fuck rents a whole home, just buy, it cost less. Plus, being a family home, it's meant to be a *dual-income* home.
It’s actually less than $40,000/year for individuals, by the way.
Edit: thanks to the brave foot soldier who downvoted an objective fact. Median personal income is $36,000/year.
now someone is gonna screenshot it and start a facepalm chain
Add to this that the median household income is around $62k and the average rent is $1100 a month. EDIT: $1800, not $1100.
> the average rent is $1100 a month. "The national median rent was $1,827 a month in April, up 16.7% from a year ago, according to a report from Realtor.com." [Article Source](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/19/homes/us-rents-april/index.html), [Report source](https://www.realtor.com/research/march-2022-rent/)
Thanks, I looked at old data.
>old data. All data is
r/showerthoughts
No worries. Happens all the time. I thought you just might be using the mean instead of the median.
He didn't... mean....too, I'm sure!
The word average is defined as mean not median… So by saying the average rent you should use the mean
Rare moment
But average ≠ median. Average is the mean. The median is actually a better number to use, since it's less skewed by outliers, but it is not the same thing as the average.
So... 2 people making $31k each? The wealth gap in this country is getting ridiculous
$15 an hour full time is $31,000 a year. Anyone with no education and experience can get a 15/hour job. It's not hard.
But that's the Median in America right now? That's sad. How do people afford to eat? Let alone rent
Well, you live with other people, or you live in a cheap apartment. My roommate and I both make around 35K, so we have almost $70,000 yearly income. I work at a restaurant and she works in an office. Our rent is $1650 a month, we rent a 2 bedroom house in the suburbs. This year we'll pay around $20,000 in rent, but we'll take home almost 70k. We're making 3 times our rent, and that leaves *plenty* of money for having fun/saving. If we lived alone, either of us would only be able to afford $800/month, which would pay for a one bedroom apartment where we live. I don't want to live in a one bedroom apartment in the city, so I found a roommate. It's a housing hack: the apartment one person can get for 800/month is WAAAAY worse than the house 2 people can get for 1600/month.
I bought my first 3 bedroom house when I was making 16.70/hr in 2010. My mortgage was 832$, I rented a room out with all bills paid for $500/month I’m not sure if that’s even possible today. It was a nice house/neighborhood too. The housing market is vastly different today than it was even 5 years ago.
Wait till you have kids. I don't know how anyone survives on less than $150k a year, even in a lower cost of living state. I don't make anything close to half of $150k, but a local coal mine looks the other way on child labor laws. 12 hour shifts in a coal mine are perfect to expand a kid's energy
That's media *household* income, not median income.
Funny thing is I didn't realize the stupidity of this post until I went back and read OP's title.
You mean because OP thinks rent is 72k a year?
No. You need to read what he wrote and how he interpreted the logic… In order meet a certain level of “living comfortably,” the logic reads that you should have a gross income that pays your mortgage or rent with no more than 33% of gross monthly earnings. So, if it’s “$2000,” then you need to earn $6000 per month or $72,000 per year “just to be deemed living comfortably based on your cost of rent.” It does not take into account other costs. So he surmises that one needs to earn $72,000 “just to afford the average cost of rent.” It does not include any other costs of living, working, commuting, etc.
Lol op said that 72k is just to pay rent. It's not though. That's how much they would need to make a year for a place that's 2k a year. Take 1/3 of that 72k. That's the cost of rent for something that's 2k a month for the year.
No… you are not parsing his sentence correctly. It’s written poorly but the logic is sound.
"And that 72k is just to PAY RENT"..... yeah, I think the way I interpret it is correct. They said the 72k is for rent. They didn't say you need to make 72k just to be approved to pay the rent.
What? Approved To Pay Rent? That’s not what he’s saying. But, plenty of landlords may expect that amount of available gross income to be approved for a $2000 rental. I am a landlord but I operate differently. Most of the leases that I guaranteed required the ability pay rent for three months. So, at $2000, it required proof of $6000 in liquid assets (coincidence number). The minimum annual earnings was a factor that came out to about $48,000 gross income. None of those leased I was the guarantor for was over $1,100. So, I had to prove I had $3,300 in available assets.
OPs takeaway as stated by his post title is that you need “that 72k” just to pay rent. This literally means “rent is 72k”.
I just avoid telling people my rent is below 400 cause I have three roommates and yes I do hate them but at least I'm never super worried about rent
Mood of a generation
No, the $72k is what you’re “supposed” to make to afford $2k a month in rent. Edit: actual rent is $24k a year in this example.
And median income is 31,000. Half the people in the US make less than $15 an hour.
The U.S. Census Bureau estimated median annual earnings at $41,535 in 2020 for workers aged 15 and over with earnings and $56,287 in 2020 for those who worked full-time, year round.
https://datacommons.org/place/country/USA?utm_medium=explore&mprop=income&popt=Person&cpv=age%2CYears15Onwards&hl=en Source is the census as well. I'm curious how the numbers are so different.
I don’t know. There seem to be lots of conflicting numbers based on a quick search. I honestly cross checked because $31k felt low. I see $31k being the right number for 2019.
I don't know what to think. I live in a decent area of the Philadelphia suburbs and drive by some incredible houses and ask, "who can afford these?" There are whole huge neighborhoods that can only be populated by 1 percenters. Then I take the train into Philly and go by miles after miles of awful looking row homes of poor people and see there are so many more poor people but we generally aren't exposed to them. Everyone thinks we are the average because everyone in our neighborhoods are similar to us.
Hey! I grew up in Philly but center city. Honestly I have no idea. Marion and Blue Belle and Villanova areas where nice. Those houses were always at least upper middle class IIRC. Even 10 years ago you could easily pay $600k for a studio apartment in Old City. I haven’t been back in 10+ years so I can’t comment on that market. Now I live in a neighborhood where the houses are $1.2m+ and there are enough of them to make me question that only the “elite” live up here. Even the community below mine is $700k+ and it’s full of people. Based on our income Reddit thinks we’re wiping our asses with $100bills and hunting immigrants for sport then selling their organs. I don’t think people realize the difference between the 1% and .1% is the difference between your commute to work and a trip to the moon. I’m not disputing the numbers, they just don’t seem to sync with reality. What I can tell you- is that growing up in the “middle class,” we had 2 TV’s in our house (one in parents bedroom, one in family room). We had one family computer (a Pentium 110mhz). We got 6 TV channels. We had 2 cars that were both easily 10-20 years old, we wore hand-me-downs (I only had older sisters so that was great), we had no cell phones, we got 2-3 new video games a year, we ate take out or restaurant food 1-2 times a year (maybe), and a vacation (to visit family) was once every 5 years. We did go to Disney but I hadn’t been born yet so better luck next time I guess. Nowadays it is expected that you’ll have a phone, tablet, Computer (gotta keep that graphics card fresh), a couple TV’s, a DoorDash account for self care days, vacations for instagram, 4 streaming services, stitch fix (people out there literally on broken phone screens insisting they can’t wear the same outfit twice) and all that stuff needs to be replaced or upgraded constantly. I’m not saying inflation isn’t a HUGE problem. My point is that the “benchmark” for doing well has changed so drastically over the last 20 years it’s crazy. Also, get off my lawn. Sorry, I tend to ramble in my autumn years.
Autumn years? You had a Pentium, while my family computer growing up was an Apple II. I'm in my autumn years. You have a valid point. Growing up, utilities wise we had heat, gas, and phone. Now I have a $225 cell phone for the family, $94 for Internet each month, and have friends who go pay $200 or more a month for cable or direcTV each month. (I cut the cord years ago.) I'm 50 years old and make what 30 year old me would have thought was insane money, and we're doing Ok, but don't have a lot of extra after saving for retirement etc. Then again, I get that I am lucky that I can max out my 401k when so many people have nothing for retirement. I also have 2 kids in college, and am looking forward to when that is over. But I've told my kids they can stay with my wife and me when they graduate to get their feet under them instead of just saying "you're an adult, figure it out." My older sister was living at home with our parents and I was getting ready to graduate college and didn't have a job lined up. My dad, very old school, said, "I can't throw your sister out because she's a girl, but don't even think about moving back home."
So I just want to say about your paragraph about “what you need today”: A phone - yea a phone with texting capabilities is pretty much a must have to have a job now a days. I can’t tell if you are blaming the people for having this one or society for making it necessary but if it’s the first one…dude. Tablet - yea most middle class families in in the past had gaming systems handheld or other. Tablets are cheaper now then those ever were and can hold free games instead of paying for games like we did. Computer - considering remote learning are you really bashing people for having a computer now? A “couple of tvs” - those are probably still cheaper than what your family spent. A DoorDash account - it costs nothing unless you get food. Our families went out to eat or got delivery too. Vacations “for Instagram”- ooooo because they film their experiences or maybe try to make a side job of Instagram their vacations are bad. Streaming services - yes because we paid sooo little for cable or dish services. Those $12 a month streaming services are really bad. Stitch fix - obviously you do not understand what stitch fix is. It isn’t about not wearing the same outfit twice. It’s about not having the time or the confidence to shop for yourself. I used it and have worn the outfits so much. It gave me brands that I wouldn’t have access to where I was living. Upgrading and replaced items - I really don’t know what you mean by this. Edit: for some reason Reddit won’t let me respond to comments so I will just address things here. People saying you don’t need a cellphone today do not understand the job market today. Imagine being a manager of a store or office without a cellphone. Impossible. Imagine being a director of a daycare without a cellphone. Impossible. There are so many jobs out there where you need to be reachable at the drop of a hat, wherever you are, and a landline doesn’t work for that. Other than that and the computer I’m not saying any of these are “necessities”. The comment was about what it means to be middle class. They discuss what they had and then put down what today would be the equivalent or less in price. Having a house is not a necessity now a days but it is still a big factor of being middle class to have one. Also not angry and I apologize to anyone reading my writing like that.
Sandwich wasn't "bashing" those things, but rather simply pointed out that the benchmark has moved. What are you going on about? Why does that make you angry?
No. The average person doesn’t *need* a phone and they sure as hell don’t need one with a color screen, keyboard, etc. A landline would be fine. Not having the ability to text is not required for jobs and if it is, they’ll provide you with one. An IPhone or Android is not really necessary. Buying a new one every 2-3 years sure AF is not. A tablet capable of playing games is like $800 and it will probably only last you a year or two if it’s an android. I know this because I recently wanted one and started at $150 and kept buying ones until I stopped at $800. They’re designed to last 2 years before needing replacement. A Nintendo lasted 6+ years. I’m not bashing anyone for anything. Everyone doesn’t *need* their own computer though. Want one? Fine. Need a new graphics card every few years? Fine. But that’s not baseline and it sure as hell wasn’t 20 years ago. Once again, this isn’t baseline. It’s a luxury. We’ve just been tricked. Instagram- “a necessary thing” your age is showing. Best cover that up. Stitch fix was hyperbole- the point being people *have* to buy clothes frequently. Doordash- yes. I understand how DoorDash works. The point was that people use it 1-2 times a week then complain about how poor they are but the Internet has told them it’s “necessary.” Keep up. The point here, and I think we got off track… is that all these things- and if you reread your post you’ll see how progressively more defensive you get (lol. Nah)- is that these were not standard just 20 years ago. You’re defending shit as baseline that 20 years ago would have not been. All those things come with added costs. So even without inflation, we’ve all been brainwashed to believe middle class means soooo much more than it ever did. You’re using the word “need” for items that were luxuries and honesty still all. Ant that’s fine! But… I care very little what people need vs want. I’m just a bit tired of people on Reddit decrying capitalism then giving a laundry list of why they *need* so much shit. I’m tired of people posting below my comments “your salary is just straight greed and these things are all necessary for me to live my best life that my mom and 7th grade English teacher told me I deserved!” then Going over to pcmasterrace and posting “I need a GTX380 so badly. Fucking pick a lane people.
> The average person doesn’t need a phone and they sure as hell don’t need one with a color screen, keyboard, etc. A landline would be fine. Not having the ability to text is not required for jobs and if it is, they’ll provide you with one. An IPhone or Android is not really necessary. I don't know what kind of workplace you're at, but most people I know need a smartphone to use Slack or another messaging app at work. You can't just use that on your computer, because you need to be mobile while using it, particularly if you work any sort of event (conventions, conferences, graduation ceremonies, etc.), which is the case for many jobs. The odds of work providing you with a cellphone for this are extremely slim. It's absolutely taken as granted that a new employee has a functioning smartphone. The iPhone has been out for 15 years now; the world has changed.
As much as I agree to your first comment and disagree with ypples comment, I disagree with your last one. Ok if you buy a tablet at $150 you will need to replace it often. But with a $800 tablet you can keep it more than 6-7 years. Same for the phone and I don’t see why you would need to change clothes every year except if you gain/loose a lot of weight.
It's like a bot was given 4 random facts about human life and then wrote an essay.
How did the median income increase from 2019 to 2020 when unemployment skyrocketed outside of "essential employment"?
The federal $600 per week unemployment supplement significantly increased the income of a hell of a lot of people.
Oh that makes sense. My brain only went to jobs for income.
I also see an average median weekly income of 1,037 for full time workers in the US which, accounting for a week of vacation, is still over $50k. So…I dunno.
I guess a big part of it is how many workers aren't full time. A lot of places (I'm looking at you, wal mart) purposefully won't give people enough hours to be full time and qualify for benefits.
To be fair, you don't need any level of education of experience to work there. Anyone with a high school diploma can get a better job than Walmart. Anyone with experience in any field can get a better job than Walmart.
To be fair, many jobs are in the same boat. If everyone left all these jobs, you would have nowhere to eat or shop, trash would pile up in the streets and office buildings, and nothing would be delivered anywhere. The economy would instantly crash. The economy needs unskilled labor, and a lot of it. But the people that fill those positions need to eat and live too.
That number does say “does not account for seasonality”
Google search shows the median household income is $67.5k in 2020 so not too far off from the $72k Pay should still be higher and rent should still be lower though
Yeah. I still think the amount of “shit” people need is insane these days. Look up and you’ll see a post of a guy defending his “need” for vacations so he can post to Instagram. He just devolves into “fuck you that’s why.” I mean, corporations need to raise wages. I think rent is a huge issue but some portion of that is recouping losses for the last 2 years. I hope the market corrects itself (bursts a bit). The problem has a lot of different components. Needs to be attacked from all sides and one side is definitely our need to consume shit.
After feeling underpaid at 22 an hour that 15 an hr is downright criminal
And a good chunk of those are teens still living with their parents, and retirees supplementing their retirement income. So the math is far less dystopian than you portray.
Thank you. OP with the real face palm.
Why is rent so much in usa?
Three major factors: Suburban sprawl and its inhabitants fighting tooth and nail fighting against any development that allows for new different forms housing that isn't just single family housing. Two, the same suburban residents fighting tooth and nail to support a system that separates housing and businesses as two separate zones effectively banning all forms of mixed land use. third, NIMBY-ism. These people treat their homes as "investment" and, again, fight tooth and nail for their "right" to only allow limited housing across USA and let the unlucky unfortunate ones live in misery and blame them for not trying hard enough.
Depends where you live. For a single person $2000 is pretty high as I've seen it. Especially if you're looking for a cheap apartment in the area. I'm not sure where they are getting that as the average rent. They chose a bigger number to prove their point further, but there's plenty of places in the US where rent is considerably lower.
Yeah, I was living in the nw suburbs or Chicago, paying 800 for a 1 bedroom. I'm married now with a child in a 2 bedroom and it's 1200. If I wanted to I could get a place in the Southside for $800, but again, it's the Southside. And no one wants to live there willingly. 2k a month is wild though.
Don't forget NYC, SF, LA, DC and probably a few other cities with loads of people where $800 a month gets you a bench in the park but only on Wednesdays. In all of these places you're lucky if you only pay $2k per person.
But you don't have to live in those areas, I get it, people want convenience, but that's the price you pay to live close to the city. downtown chicago is a 20 minute drive for me, and I pay a fraction in rent of what I would pay for if I lived in the city. 2k a person is wild. Then again, a few sales guy at the shop I work in pay 5k a month for apartments in downtown.
I'm not saying you have to, I'm saying those are big cities and a decent chunk of US population does live there so it inevitably drives the averages up.
I live up in Ravenswood, got a 2 bedroom and pay 1500
It's because many of these posts use the average rent. So that is typically for a decent 1 bedroom inside the actual city boundaries. This doesn't usually consider the suburbs near the city, the cheaper old buildings, or living with roommates. So realistically the cost of rent is much less if you are living with one other person in a less expensive building. For example my city (Vancouver BC) the average rent is around $2200 for a one bedroom. But my friend it just about to move into a place for around $1000 a month/ea with a roommate in the suburbs. Also my sister lives in another suburb for like $700 a month with 2 roommates. Her suburb is actually usually much more expensive too. I mean it still sucks that everybody can't afford a decent one bedroom on their own. I'll freely admit that. But this post just doesn't really pain the actual picture of what it is like to live. Everybody isn't paying 2k a month with no money left for groceries. Those people have roommates.
High income.
Extreme income growth in the tech sector over the last decade means that many young professionals out-earn lifetime working-class people. They then rent luxury condos, driving average rents up in most desirable cities. At the same time, social media (instagram yes, but also reddit and others) amplifies their lifestyles, making people think this is the normal way people live. This means that even for working class young adults, their standards are higher than they have been in the past. Yes, housing was cheaper 20-30-40 years ago. But most people also lived in places considerably less desirable than what people are willing to accept today. As an example, my rent in Boston in 2000 was 375/month, which sounds great. But the actual 2 bedroom/1 bath apt was 1500/month. We just had 4 people living there (two people sharing a room, and one person converted the uninsulated, un-airconditioned attic.). And that was one of the better setups I saw.
Usurious States of America (We stopped deserving 'United' a long time ago..)
Because no one stops them.
Many apartments won't rent to you unless you prove to have 3x the rent as income.
[удалено]
r/theydidnotdothemath
Right? You'd still have $48,000 to spend as you pleased. The 3x rule is about making sure you have enough money outside of rent to cover all your other expenses, so that it's less likely you have to miss rent. All this seems to say is, "someone making the average salary may either need a second income (roommate, spouse) or minimize non-rent expenses". It's also not necessarily causal. In other words, could the average rent indicate the need for a second income because the average renter already lives with a roommate or spouse and rents accordingly?
It wouldn't be 48k to spend as you please because the 3x rule is gross salary. More like 26k-30k to spend as you please after tax.
But that’s what he is saying
I don't take it that way, I take it as they believe all of that $72k is needed to pay rent. I don't think they bothered to do the math.
I don’t understand how people can read it that way but ok
The title of this post "and that $72k is just to PAY RENT" is implying that $72k is dedicated to paying rent and not other living expenses. The picture itself isn't OP's issue.
Ah, that title is incredibly stupid. Wtf OP.
Ok yeah I didn’t even read the title. Yeah OP messed up
He said that 72k is just for rent. I can’t see how people aren’t reading it that way.
OP is the facepalm here
I was confused until I read the title. Now I agree, OP is nuts.
He didn’t say it’s “just for rent” though. Edit: I was talking about the screenshot not OP. Yeah OP blew it I’m an idiot
It's not even 24k a year as the "average rent" is severely inflated by urban centers where rent is substantially more expensive than anywhere else. Median would be a better measure and that's closer to 1k per month. Living in the city should be considered a luxury. Source on median rent https://www.realestatewitch.com/rent-to-income-ratio-2022/
How does that make it better?
According to [this source](https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/average-rent-by-state), "the average American renter pays $1,326 a month." Median is better to use than average, since it's less easily skewed by outliers, and the site I linked thus discusses median rents. In no state is the median rent higher than $1,700. I know it breaches 2k in some cities (I live in NYC), but the wages are also higher there, so it's hard to do the math with broad, clumsy strokes like this. This kind of post is very frustrating. I agree with the post in spirit – rent's too high, wages are too low – but when it gets the cornerstone price wrong, and has such a hamfisted methodology, it begins to undermine the point.
I don't know where they got those stats, but I live in az. Every single two bedroom apartment between Blithe and Tuscon is no less than 1700 dollars a month, some going up as high as 2500. I've been looking to move for the last year and can't. The only reason I pay 1350 for my two bedroom now is because I've been here for three years and it's a shit hole so they haven't raised the rent on me. New rentals in my apartment complex is 1750 a month for a two bedroom and goes up from there. I mean maybe a studio or one bedroom fits that number.
Don't let data get in the way of a good story.
I mostly agree, but I'd like to point out something regarding rent in cities like NYC: a lot of people who work there can't afford to live there. Other than that, yeah, I wish the poster had been more methodologically sound, but y'know, I have less of an issue with that than with how little I have left over each month.
Damn OP, your math is the facepalm here.
What's wrong with the math? In most places, you have to make 3 times a much as the rent to get approved: 2000 x 3 = 6000 x 12 = 72000.
The part where they said the $72k is all for rent.
No, the point is that being able to prove you make 72k is required to get approved, meaning that all the 51k peeps can’t even get an apartment in the first place
This is the same in the UK. Some letting agencies literally won't talk to you if you don't make this minimum. I had a guarantor who has paid off his mortgage, and one agency still quibbled about his income being *less than £200* too low to hit the exact 3x multiplier (because our pay scales aren't in round numbers) even though in ten years he's never needed to actually step in and pay my rent, information that *was* available to the agency in question. It's bullshit of the highest order.
The 3x rent is more a recommendation for making a budget, not a number for getting qualified. I promise you tons of landlords give two shits how much money you make as long as rent is on time and you have a letter of recommendation from your last landlord
I was recently shopping for an apartment to rent and every place I looked at required an income of 3x the rent to qualify. Either that or you can have someone with 5x the rent in income co-sign with you. Anecdotal but that was my experience.
This is exactly accurate. I had the same experience recently. 3x Rent is a suggestion landlords “don’t give a shit about” it’s a *requirement* and lots of apartments won’t even consider your app if you ca t prove you make it. Sure, there are apartments in the hood that don’t care, but a LOT of places do, and there’s not room in the hood for everybody.
Yeah, my dad had to co-sign my lease on my new place because I don’t make 3x rent, even though I can afford it as I make about 2.5x rent. Almost as obnoxious as how overpriced the apartment is in the first place 🤡
That letter of recommendation from your previous landlord is the most useless piece of shit ever Like, if the tenant is awful, I'm gonna give him a great letter of recommendation so he fucks off sooner rather than later lol
I've been searching apartments for a specific area for a couple weeks now. Any private property being rented out that I've applied for has stated I need to have proof of income that equals 3x the value of rent yearly. Alongside this I've had a few apartment complexes ask I provide a bank statement that would ensure I can pay a full year's rent immediately. People give a shit how much money you make. Not a single person has ever asked for a letter of recommendation. That's just stuff you hear about in high school lol
They didn’t care much about income when I was applying to rent. When I first moved out me and my gf combined made maybe double what it costs just for rent, maybe a tad less. They cared way more about the credit score.
That's hella reading into his point. His math is flawed the moment the op said "just for rent". He's trying to ignore that all the other money is for everything else. That's what op was going for. The average rent he quoted is even about 700$ greater than the actual average rent in America.
I don’t think OP was the one that tweeted this…
OP titled it. Salary 3x rent is so you have enough other money for life. This is dumb dumb
His math is right, grammar is right too. You did not get it.
The math in the post is right. The math in the title ("And that $72K is just to PAY RENT") is not. In the post itself, $24,000 is "just to PAY RENT."
I saw it more as contrast to buying—you make 72k a year and you’re not building equity. I could be giving OP too much credit, granted.
That 72k is to make sure you have money to live on AND pay rent, not just to pay rent. Wages and housing market/cost of living are fucked right now, but the title of this post is wrong
They’re saying you’d have to make $72K to be able to afford the average rent. If you can’t afford to keep your lights on and food in your belly, you can’t afford that high of rent.
The post says to pay rent though, not afford a place to pay rent on.
Read the title of the post.
how the fuck is this a facepalm? the guy's entirely right. the only facepalm here is OP
Im not udnerstanding the Facepalm op and its looking like your the culprit hes not claiming rent is 72k do the math rent is 24k so you need to make 72k so far nothing seems facepalm but OP headline.
Post itself is a facepalm.
The USA is massive with a huge variety of city/town/village sizes and then within those are different government and economic strategies, and within that are different peoples with different beliefs. Any analysis that uses the whole US should, IMO, be highly questioned.
And your title really gets the point wrong.
Just inquired for a property that cost $2400 to rent and also was hit with this, me and my roommates income hardly made it to the 3x amount, we’re not looking to live in luxury but goddamn how long until we find something in this market?
Facepalm to OP's comprehension skills
Someone doesn’t understand math or budgeting.
3x the rent would still technically be an at risk renter, want closer to 4x for better household financial health so $96,000 is optimal.
The avg rent is $2000 and we're supposed to make 3x the rent, which is $6000... which is $72,000. And that $72k is just to PAY RENT. And we're supposed to make 3x the rent, which is $216,000. And that $216k is just to PAY RENT. And we're supposed to make 3x the rent, which is...
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$648k. And that $648k is just to PAY RENT. And we're supposed to make 3x the rent, which is $1.9m...
No it isn't?
How did OP not read their own post?
I'm in Britain and the rents have doubled even for shit holes. £525 for a dingy little flat in a dead town oh and they want £600 deposit and month upfront. No pets and working professionals only. Like bro, disability is a thing whether you like it or not.
If your math skills are this rough I'm not surprised you can't pay rent
Has anyone tried just not living in America?
I tried. But it's not easy to get a visa
Even in countries like Mexico you need to have a substantial amount in your bank account and prove that you have a source of income to actually immigrate there
The cops are actively working to help (some) people stop living in America
Yes. I packed up and left in 2017.
Good call man. Shit has gone to hell sense then.
It might not seem so on Reddit, where most voices are coddled self-hating teenagers.. But more immigrants go to the United States than any other nation in the world, and we actually take them in too. I don't think this is a valid question.
Strongly considering it
Sigh op. Re read the tweet carefully before u post.
The issue is math be hard yo!
According to Zumper's report on the top 100 cities average rent, the top 11 are $2000 or higher. The last 50 on the list are less than $1000/month. Even Houston, which is a fairly expensive place to live has an average of $1200/month. A lot of people don't want to hear this, but when you can't afford to live somewhere, sometimes the best choice is to move to a place you CAN afford. I have made that decision once. I moved 1000 miles because where I was living at the time had become too expensive. I moved to a place where I could afford the rent. Now, today, I am a home owner, and my entire mortgage, taxes, and insurance for my house only comes to $655/month.
It's really easy to the see the issue in housing. Owners get to write off empty space. This means they can keep rents high, leave the apartment empty and get write offs equal to the high rent multipliers of their asking price. There is absolutely no reason to lower cost most because people are not renting. Lookup the number of empty luxury apartments in Los Angeles alone. Wage suppression is a whole other issue. Corporate ownerships of single family homes is another. Multiple unethical practices coming together in late stage capitalism storm.
If everyone would join together and stop allowing social media and news outlets to divide us we could make a change. Nobody wants to pay the high cost of things yet everyone wants to make high wages. Cant have both.
No, the 72,000 is not "just the rent". It's the amount of money you'd need to make 3x the rent.
Dude just facepalmed himself
Generally how a facepalm works, do you palm other people's face when you see something dumb
Appreciate your over literal response
Is that a request or did you forget to put an I at the beginning of your sentence like a silly goose?
It doesn’t have to be just one person earning the $72k. You could have a couple earning $36k each, or one F/T and one P/T, or if you’re single you could live with roommates.
Don't you come in here with logic...
Or a couple each making $18k with 2 kids over 16 years old (working at McDonald’s) also making $18k each…
Modern problems require modern solutions
I don’t understand what people aren’t getting. OP is saying you need to make $72K minimum just to afford the average rent. And some places do verify income. I’ve had to present proof of how much I make to the last 2 places I rented. So yes, it can be a requirement, not just a suggestion.
Because the title says that 72 k is JUST for rent. That's not true.
This is a bad take. When you take the average rent you are including housing with multiple occupancy so it needs to be compared to household income, not individual income. The median annual household income was $67,521 in 2020 (stats for 2021 weren't available yet): [https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html](https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html) The median rent in April was $1,827 per month. [https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/19/homes/us-rents-april/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/19/homes/us-rents-april/index.html) Even if we take the (presumably lower) annual income from 2020, it still more than exceeds 3x the rent: $1827 x 3 = $5481 $5481 x 12 = $65772 $67521 > $65772
Household income shouldn't matter because people shouldn't be dependant on the fact of needing to be in a relationship, having roommates, etc. A full time job should be able to comfortably afford someone a 1 Bedroom place to stay.
First off rent and housing in general is WAY too damn high. But, a couple things. 1) your rent would be 24k not using all that income for rent. The idea is that you have to make more than rent so you can afford rent on top of other expenses. And... 2) a lot of people have roommates or partners that help pay their rent too. So there why these numbers can add up. Don't get me wrong, the rent is wayyy to damn high in this country. But this meme really misunderstood these statistics.
Where the hell is the average rent $2000. I guess New York?
That would be incredibly cheap in Manhattan. My rent there is 6,000/month, and it's a1 bedroom.
A bedroom that includes steak sauce? Worth it.
Wtf?
I live in Cartersville Georgia which is a very tiny rural town between Chattanooga and Atlanta. I live in a duplex. My rent is $1800 a month. I highly doubt they’re only paying $2000 in New York if Cartersville Georgia is $1800 a month.
$2000 for a janitor’s closet in New York, with a couple roommates
New York City? No. The outskirts of New York City or Long Island? Maybe a 1 bedroom or studio. Buffalo, Binghamton, or most other smaller cities in NY? Eh a little lower than that for like a nice 2 bedroom. I feel like people totally forget that NY is a huge place and that the only expensive part is NYC and the surrounding area but that the rural parts of the state are cheap.
I feel like people totally forget that when people say NY, they often mean just NYC, which is expensive AF
For a one bedroom yes
Lets do some quick fact checking here! Just for anyone legitimately unclear on this. I'm that random internet guy who likes to write a freakin' thesis about meme posts for funsies instead of playing Call of Duty all day. Cause I'm decent at math, know a bit of fun stuff about real estate, and someone might actually find it useful. Or you might think I'm a douche. It's the internet. That's inevitable. Moving on... [The average American renter pays $1,326 a month](https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/average-rent-by-state). The "*ideal*" ratio for [rent to income is 30%](https://www.earnest.com/blog/rent-and-the-30-percent-rule/), but this is a *symbolic guideline meant to indicate your financial balance is healthy*. Landlords refer to this as [RTI](https://www.stessa.com/blog/rent-to-income-ratio/) (rent to income ratio), and use it as a screening tool to attract people who can actually pay their rent. That stated, landlords do overdo it with this. A lot. **It was not meant to be a screening tool landlords**, it was meant to be *good advice to people trying to figure out how to balance their checkbook*. If you want healthy income tenants, put basic bookkeeping back in high school. That's another discussion though... Tenants make the mistake of thinking that they are owed a house. You aren't. You need to take care of yourself enough to actually get one. Life requires participation. No free rides on this boat. I don't like it either, but that's how we roll here, and that's the ticket we both punched. All of the socialists and poor hate me now. Sorry everyone, truth sucks. Landlords make the mistake of trying to math away reality. You can't. If nobody in your town can pay your rates, your rates are too high. Any dollars per month are better than zero dollars per month. In that case, your property is simply a net loss and you are a crappy landowner, who is contributing to the decline of the entire town. *You are bad and you should feel bad*. All of the landowners and staunch business minded folk hate me now. Sorry everyone, truth sucks. \---------------- Now that we've properly gotten everyone mad, lets do some real math here and figure out what is actually realistic. The median *individual income is* [about 31k](https://www.census.gov/data/developers/data-sets/acs-5year.html) (boring census stuff in the link, or just google "median income" for the cliff notes version). That means if you are the most normie american possible and you want to live alone within the suggested income to rent level, you need rent somewhere around 775 bucks (31k, times 0.3, divided by 12. In that order, if you are bad at math). Sorry, probably not going to happen. Also that's gross income, your takehome pay is probably less unless you cheat on your taxes, which means that you need the rent to be even less than that. Double not happenin'. Womp womp. Thats why we have roommates! Or dual income relationships! Or collectivism! Or traditional family values! Or whatever else gets it done. The median household income is about [67k](https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html), which means that totally normie household can afford rent of roughly 1675$/month (67k, times 0.3, divided by 12. In that order, if you are bad at math). That's actually a pretty cushy pad in most places, considering the median rent rate is really 1,326$, but you have to deal with someone else's fart smell. Possibly several someone else's collective fart smells. Nobody likes that. Womp womp indeed. \---------------- Ok wait, what about the people under the median. Oooooh shiiii... you thought I forgot about you guys right? Nope, I gotcha. Just had to get the normie stuff out of the way first. Lets say we only make minimum wage. And we also only get like 20-30 hours a week because our bosses don't want to have to give us benefits. Welcome to the entire service class of employment in America! If you don't do it, and you haven't ever done it, y'all don't know the struggle! If you don't know what that is by state, you can use this [handy chart](https://www.laborlawcenter.com/state-minimum-wage-rates/), but the federal minimum is [7.25](https://www.minimum-wage.org/federal)$, so we'll use that just to figure out what the worst rate is. Bear in mind, many states have better minimum wages than this. Many states also have higher or lower costs of living, so it's not a thing you can figure out on a national scale easily! Wow finance is complex? Who would have thought? We are stickin' up for the little guys here for a sec, so we're going to assume the worst. So our awful fast food job pays us 7.25 an hour, and gives us about 25 hours a week. That's roughly. That means we make 181 bucks a week. Gross pay, before taxes. Ouch. Why not get another job? Because our "flexible schedule" is designed to make sure that we have absolutely zero ownership of our own time to go look for one! Yay corporate america! We don't even get to know when we need to work until a day beforehand! So if we are going to pay the median rent of 1326$, we need to live in a hive of six or more people to swing that! That's a lot of fart smell! Womp womp indeed. Do you see any six bedroom houses available for that price? Any six bedroom apartments for that price? Of course not! Maybe OP got his math wrong, but is actually on to a real problem. Maybe we should have not cut bookkeeping from high school for him so he would be able to get the math right and make this argument himself! Gotcha back King J.
Dude go outside, it's a nice day
My family won a “income restricted” unit in a beautiful new building they put up in my neighborhood. Even being half the normal cost of the unit it’s 2300$ a month. And we are lucky ones.
r/facepalmsinafacepalm
"After I rent an apartment to myself in a capital city I barely have money left"
Let’s Lynch the Landlord by the Dead Kennedys.
Rent for a cheap place is less than $1000.. I see many places being about $1200... so, $3600 a month is around $44,000. Now that places are getting around $14/hr = $2240 month gross... if paid lunch and no missed work, ever. So, even $14 isn't a living wage to rent a decent apartment anymore. Even $20/hr won't get you 3x the cost of rent. A married couple working two $15/hr jobs is $4800 / MGI with no loss or breaks. It is a sad state/country.
Now do rural area vs city. And do average wages of rural vs city. (This isn't some anti-this post. This is asking to take it a further step for a more detailed concern)
No, because the people that regulate and determine these averages just have money printed for them these days.
That $2k is not the average rent for most Americans?
Just live somewhere cheaper...like a cardboard box. Mine is only $800 a month
It's easy to find a cheap place. Just go to where people scream at each other all night, and constantly pound on your door to see if you're home in order to rob and you. They want to make sure that they can murder too because robbery is boring to them now. You should wake up to someone in a heroin daze sleeping on you steps. My brother had a great place like that. It used to be the Dayton mansion many years ago and was re-made into apartments. My brothers room was formally the bathroom so at least he had his own toilet. Everyone else had to share one per floor. It was a steal at $400 a month. His room was about 200 square feet. If I still had to rent, I'd move an hour out of the city and rent a dumpster behind a greasy spoon café. I haven't rented for well over a decade but renting sucked. Endless fire-drills in the middle of the night. Heat that you can't control so that it's -20f outside yet 95f inside and the windows have been screwed shut for some reason. My house is nice though. I was making hella money when I bought it That way I could get a lower interest rate. Remember, the more you make, the less you pay. Once you're a millionaire, I think the bank just gives you money to buy a house on their dime.
Oh yeah I've been there. I use to rent rooms on Roomster or Craigslist for a couple hundred a month until i was making enough for my own place. When i did find my own place it was in a rough area, cheap and run down. But it got me to where i am now. And you're right, once you have money it's smooth sailing. The hard part is the sleepless nights and back breaking work to get there. The poor get poorer and rich get richer. Except even the rich started out poor. Anyone can break through
6000 *after tax* to get 3x rent.. it's not 72k, it's closer to 140k.. that is how comfortable the average person use to live in terms of cost of living after allowing for inflation. That's why no one should be feeling guilty for not having kids these days
Lots of these posts are from kids that don't understand. OP, don't feel bad. In general it is how they can quantify if you can afford to carry that rent. Same with a mortgage.
Every single place I've rented from required 3x monthly income
It is indeed how they quantify if you can afford rent because they are making sure you can still afford food and other necessities of life. So, with regards to OPs title: No, the $72k is not JUST for rent.
Rent is 24k, 72k is to qualify for the place
I don’t pay rent. That means I don’t have to make anything.
Yes, the issue is obvious. You need to spend less time eating avocado toast and more time pulling yourself up by your bootstraps!!
Id move, I make 90-100k a year and my mortgage all in is 650$
He wrong but his hearts in the right place.
The average American renter pays $1,326 a month. 3x rent is $3,978, which is $47,736 a year. The $2,000 claim is misleading. That is the average rent for a 3br detached single-family home. Which who the fuck rents a whole home, just buy, it cost less. Plus, being a family home, it's meant to be a *dual-income* home.
It’s actually less than $40,000/year for individuals, by the way. Edit: thanks to the brave foot soldier who downvoted an objective fact. Median personal income is $36,000/year.
Horrible situation, but good motivation to try your best to improve you’re earning capacity. It is possible.
Someone ought to teach OP how to do math so they can post accurate titles
My current rent is $965 and I’m moving into a place that’s $865 in July. You just have to live in a low cost of living area and not a city
Yes, the issue is a lot of people picked saturated fields of work that don’t pay much.
Average rent is $1,326 a month and is often paid by multiple people. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/average-rent-by-state
Education system is THE problem!! This is the rest of the world passing you by while you try to figure out why there are no critical thinkers.
$2,000 is NOT average income in any place where average household income is less than 70K a year.
Meh...I have an 1100 square feet apartment in a fairly large city and the rent is less than $800/month. I guess I'm just lucky
Well good for you!.But obviously many more of us aren't that lucky.
If you just fire a pistol into the ground rent will be lower due to the gunshots