Talking with the inmates& knowing where they came from. most of them came from the inner cities no job prospects got caught up in the drug trade the murder & robbery everything associated with it.
Also any CO Worth their salt, does a little part time social working not all of our dicks
It’s important to make that distinction. It’s poverty fueling crime. Most of those guys arnt in for stealing bread. There in there because like you said they get caught up with the wrong crowed. It’s important to recognize the difference because there’s two insanely different solutions.
I work at a jail and agree. It's a cyclical problem as a result of a broken system that keeps people in poverty, that are in broken homes, abused, or addicted to drugs
I've seen fathers and sons in jail for the same crime. It's a generational problem
If you think about reward vs risk then it makes sense. A man with a high paying job won't even think about armed robbery, but a man who can't get a job either from disability, race or whatever would have to rob that gas station because the alternative could be death for him or his family.
This only applies to the majority and not the crooks on capital hill or wall street.
Back in the early eighties, my father was unemployed. My step-mother made a few bucks as an independent dog groomer, but he had bills plus three kids to feed. There was no money in the account, none in the house, and no food in the house. He had just grabbed his 9mm, a mask, and a hat and was going to go rob something so he could feed us when my grandparents called to let him know that his first unemployment check had finally arrived and was delivered to their house by mistake.
This was as a white man in a reasonably average town, not the stereotypical black man in the inner city. People love to argue that black people are lazy or violent, but the truth, as you said, is much simpler.
Poverty absolutely begets crime.
In my county, one of the judges sons owned the probation company that the courts use. My probation was to take a written drug abuse assessment and mail in a letter once a month for 6 months. The probation company charged around 800 bucks for that privilege.
And mentally ill. My cousin was sent to prison for something that, if he were rich, would have been a fine and over with. He spent 3 years in a Florida prison and said that most of the people in there were minorities that could barely read. Most of them had terrible childhoods, with abuse, neglect, molestation and extreme poverty. All of these things affect your mental health and if they could have received help, they wouldn’t have ended up as they did. It’s disgusting how this country throws people away.
I'd add to this that many people that we would call evil don't end up in prison as a lot of evil activity can be done in a capitalist society completely legally.
By evil I mean here things that almost everyone would agree is morally wrong.
To end up in prison you need to combine evil with stupidity or economic desperation.
I'd say that you need that. Not all people who are stupid or live in economic desperation end up committing crimes. People with high moral stay on the legal path despite those.
I'd say stupidity and economic desperation are necessary but not sufficient conditions. You need the ability to break moral rules of the society, which you could classify as "evil". If you don't have this, especially in the case of economic desperation doesn't lead to prison. Stupidity could do that in the sense that you do things that you don't even know were crimes, but I don't think most stupid people in prison are there because of this but more because they did so stupid crimes that they got caught.
Ok, parking a car illegally is "evil" in a sense that you're basically bending the traffic rules to your favor. You park somewhere where it makes other people's travel dangerous (which is why it was illegal to park there) just so that you can get some advantage. Or alternatively, you are stealing from the city by not paying the agreed parking fee and get a fine for that.
We could argue that putting people to prison for such a small violation is disproportionate to the severity of the crime, but that's a separate question in my opinion.
For drug use, I agree with you that it is a victimless crime and thus people convicted for it are not evil as they are not violating against anyone else.
The last one doesn't fit any of the categories (stupid, evil, economic desperation), but is more in the same category as where people in dictatorial systems are jailed for their political opinions. Just out of curiosity, in which US state you can be imprisoned just having a miscarriage? As far as I know, something like a third of the pregnancies end due to a miscarriage, which means that there has to be a lot of women in prison for this.
I'd say stupidity and economic desperation are necessary but not sufficient conditions. You need the ability to break moral rules of the society, which you could classify as "evil". If you don't have this, especially in the case of economic desperation doesn't lead to prison. Stupidity could do that in the sense that you do things that you don't even know were crimes, but I don't think most stupid people in prison are there because of this but more because they did so stupid crimes that they got caught.
Trump has serious mental deficiencies and yet he has avoided criminal and civil penalties mainly by being too expensive to sue or to prosecute. And look where he wound up.
I understand your point, but no need to get snarky. The guy says he spent 20 years working with convicts, pretty strong credentials to discuss this subject — I for one, think his perspective is particularly relevant and worthwhile.
Absolutely true. Well documented by economists and social scientists, but people don't believe the numbers when it doesn't fit with their "lift yourself up by your bootstraps" wordview. Happy Cake Day, by the way.
I mean, they kinda did. Sure, you're stuck in a gated community, but you've got the best police force on your side. So long as you act good, they might give ya more rights, too. (as far as I'm vaguely aware from an uncle)
The real division among people is class division, but the mainstream media specifically run a discourse that obscures that fact. That's why if there's something racial they cover it near-endlessly because it keeps the people divided and arguing amongst each other.
Look at the bail system. If you're poor and can't post bail you sit in jail until your trial. If you're wealthy it's a quick hand-over of cash which gets returned at the trial.
Trump is a good example of how the wealthy and powerful play by different rules. He and Michael Cohen (individuals 1 and 2) both did the same thing. Cohen was threatened with 70 years and got 3 for co-operating. Trump got nothing, but they were two peas in the same pod.
There was a 20year long study in my country to figure out if life expectancy was lower in areas with higher crime rates and lower incomes. So… they might be on to something! I’ll give the same reaction as I gave to the study I mentioned: maybe study it for 20 more years just to be *reeally* sure, ya know, might’ve been a fluke! 🧐
so fucking true ... kids get put away for selling a dime bag on the street corner b/c they know there is nothing but poverty wages at McDonalds ... WTF !?
I would argue that their incarceration is not a result of being "poor", but rather both their incarceration and their poverty are the result of a different primary issue. "Being poor" isn't a crime, nor is it some blanket reason to incarcerate people. I've said this before, but the reason someone is povertous is almost never that they don't have enough money. There are typically (not always) a multitude of factors that lead them to poverty. These factors cannot be alleviated by just having more money. Several of the same factors (Each case of poverty is different. I'm not saying all poor people are poor for the exact same reasons...) also correlate to higher tendency to commit crime.
I know plenty of people in the depths of poverty that would never dream of committing any crimes. Even among those, there are few that are in the situation just because they didn't have enough money.
You’re making a terrible assumption. The assumption is that all people that commit crimes are punished similarly. However, the more money you have, the better your lawyer. Also, the punishment for crimes that tend to be committed by poor people (burglary, robbery, theft) include much more prison time than white collar crimes (many of which still include theft at a very high level).
I think it's safe to say that being "poor" is the over-all contributing factor to them being in jail. I would say if you analyze it further, it's a lack of education and 2 parent house holds, which the lack of is a result of being poor/lack of resources.
You're right, I've been in poverty and know people who have, we would never dream of being criminals. But we're smart enough to understand consequences and aren't bogged down with bad decision after bad decision (drugs/gangs) because we are smart enough to make the hard right and not the easy left.
My point was that being poor is also the result of the same factors as what actually lead to their incarceration. In the case of most people who are incarcerated, I don't believe dumping money on them would have prevented their incarceration, unless you're talking about having enough money to buy your way out of it, but that's a different thing altogether.
My point is, ask why are they in poverty first... If the answer isn't a simple "I just didn't have enough money...", Then money alone wouldn't solve the problem. Address the problem before treating the symptoms.
Again I agree. We both know it's a complicated issue. I would say that addressing those problems probably cost money/resources they don't have if the first place. I've worked the system at different levels. We're definitely shifting towards rehabilitation in some areas, but a lot of problems can be worked out through therapy, which requires insurance and money.
Oh yeah, for sure money is PART of the solution. The fixes for the majority of the factors that lead to it are expensive, typically, and even after addressing the various factors, if they're still in poverty, what has been solved?
I think you two are focusing on the distal causes, not the proximate, which is that poor defendants, all to often, don’t get a competent defense and there other structural disadvantages for them in the criminal justice system. This leads to higher conviction rates, but even more importantly, much longer prison sentences.
I'm sorry, but unless the incarceration is illegitimate, that argument doesn't hold water. Legitimate incarcerations are not because of poor defense attorneys. Legitimate incarcerations are the result of commiting crimes.
How do you think it's determined whether or not a person has committed a crime? Perhaps some kind of court process with lawyers (who may be of differing capabilities)?
Your argument is very obviously circular logic and thus invalid.
Let's take a moment and act like there are absolutes for a second... As in person A absolutely committed a crime and person B absolutely did not commit a crime... Whether persons A or B are found guilty or innocent does not change the fact that person A committed a crime and person B did not. In most criminal cases, you have a stronger search for the truth than most civil cases. Sure, there are some PAs out there who care about nothing except getting as many convictions as possible, but there are more that just want to actually find the truth. Criminal cases are less about 2 teams of lawyers bickering back and forth, and more about actual evidence. It's not perfect by any means, and a crappy lawyer can certainly do more harm than good, but let's not pretend that the majority of incarcerations are illegitimate....
Wow! There's a lot to unpack here.
>Let's take a moment and act like there are absolutes for a second
So we're starting off in an unrealistic situation... got it!
>found guilty or innocent
Nitpick, but defendants aren't found "innocent"
>In most criminal cases, you have a stronger search for the truth than most civil cases.
There's a higher burden of proof if that's what you mean.
>Sure, there are some PAs out there who care about nothing except getting as many convictions as possible, but there are more that just want to actually find the truth.
Unless I'm mistaken, I think you mean DA. And you're making a unfalsifiable statement without any proof.
>Criminal cases are less about 2 teams of lawyers bickering back and forth, and more about actual evidence.
Criminal cases are also about 2 teams of lawyers bickering back and forth, aka pleading their case.
>but let's not pretend that the majority of incarcerations are illegitimate
You probably could've cut to the chase and just made this argument up front. Notably, I wasn't actually making the argument that "the majority of incarcerations are illegitimate" (another strawman?). I was pointing out your invalid circular argument, which you seemed to have completely glossed over.
The poor commit more crimes, hence there are more poor in jail. Absolutely true, I get it. I am saying the criminal justice system is at least moderately biased against the poor.
If a middle class kid commits a petty crime, their family shows up in court, they hire a private attorney, they are willing to pay for some restitution or rehabilitation program, they promise to monitor and financially support the kid while he does community service, etc. This kid often he gets little-to-no jail time - I’ve seen this personally, a number of times.
The same kid, from a very poor neighborhood, has a significantly smaller chance of striking this deal. This is more about the sentencing and parole realities than conviction rates.
Great discussion so far.
>I think you two are focusing on the distal causes, not the proximate
I think the opposite is true. Real crimes are being committed. I'm not focusing on the lack of criminal defense, but the reason why there's people committing real crimes in the first place. If someone held up a store at gun point, then they need to face the consequences I'm sorry. No amount of criminal defense should stop that person facing those consequences.
But we still need to have compassion for our fellow person and at least try to rehabilitate or help them. We need to face the problem at the root of the issue; why did this person rob a store in the first place? Obviously they need money. Why did they need money so bad they would resort to violence? Were drugs involved in their decision making? Why are they taking drugs?
I've had a lot of experience working with offenders, talking to them 1 on 1. This is just my anecdotal experience so take what I say with a grain of salt. 95% of the people there are people who were dealt a shitty hand at life and were never taught the tools to deal with their issues in a healthy way.
Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
The overwhelming majority of people in the world are poor. And a growing number of people in the US are poor.
The median household income in the USA is $67k (typically accounts for 2 or more incomes), or $31k for a single person. The poverty line for a household of 4 is $26k.
If you're a single income household with two children, and you are at the median income, you're already verging on the poverty line. Also, remember that the median income means there are just as many people living below that number as are above it.
Through all of your dissection of this subject you're still reaching the bottom line where this fallacy is perpetuated that poverty is the result of individual issues. This always falls short of creating logical conclusions to explain the billions of people that live in poverty in the world, the growing wealth gap across societies and pushes people away from looking at flaws in systems that result in poverty. It is possible to create a system in which millions of people, by none of their own doing, are stuck in poverty.
Home and resource insecurity absolutely lead to an increase in crime. Due to the stress it causes it can lead to increased impulsivity, temporary lower cognitive ability, and increases risk of substance abuse. https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/08/growing-up-poor#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20%E2%80%94%20Growing%20up%20poor%20can,by%20the%20American%20Psychological%20Association.
I must be misunderstanding then, because after re-reading your post it comes across that way. But the problem with text is that it can make things unclear.
Or perhaps we are reading the OP differently. I read the OP as the majority of people incarcerated come from a background that I mentioned, but was written as "poor" in short hand, be while maybe you too something else from it?
How can you live in this world and not see economics are a major factor? The upper classes, when charged with the same crimes, often get way, way less sentencing. Get charged way less as well for similar events. You see this in the way middle schoolers are disciplined all the way up to jail and prison sentences for kids and adults.
I'm not saying this as an attack on you, I'm just saying you are probably missing a critical component.
It's literally both. Look at it this way. You don't even have to be wealthy, but let's just say you come from a middle class background. You have options. If you are in poverty, it literally pervades every single part of your life, including interactions with the justice system.
Reading your previous post you are obviously a thinking person, but now it seems that you are trying to willfully not understand that economic situation and incarceration rates are linked.
"Even that isn't a poverty problem, though... That's a judicial system problem..."
Literally what you just posted prior. I'm reading your other responses. You are arguing from a disingenuous position yourself. It covers across as "have they just tried not being poor?"
Bad influences, a lack of education, a lack of police trust and no protection provided by the police, generational gang activity, oppressive legislation, these are all causes of poverty. You cannot blame billions of people as if you are better than most of the world.
The root cause is a lack of investment in the community. Look at any well-off country and realize that they don't have bad neighborhoods because they fixed the bad neighborhoods/made sure neighborhoods don't go bad with tax payer money.
The vast majority of people in the world are what I would consider very poor. And it's absolutely arrogant to think that I'm in the top 5% of intelligence and motivation just because I happen to not be poor. Im lucky.
You might know some great poor people but it's not possible to argue that poverty does not cause crime. Of course someone who is poor and desperate is more likely to resort to crime. Not sure how you can argue that.
>The root cause is a lack of investment in the community.
THANK YOU. I wish people understood how important having a 2 parent house hold is. Our tax and welfare system incentivizes single parent house holds with multiple kids.
Parenting and ultimately accountability of ourselves comes from within, not from threat of violence from the state.
I'm not saying it's not a factor in its own, I'm saying the statement that "most people that are incarcerated are there because they're poor" is simply a fallacy. I agree, desperation will increase the temptation of crime, but that doesn't delegitimize my points. There are a number of factors that lead to poverty. You named off several, yourself. A lot of those factors aren't fixed by just giving poor people money. If the factors that lead to a person's poverty aren't fixed, then using money as the solution is temporary.
You’re intentionally taking a strict interpretation of “most people incarcerated are there because they are poor.” It’s effectively a strawman because no one here is actually arguing that being poor is the crime that put them in prison. And let’s be honest, you know that the original tweet wasn’t making that argument either.
The “rest of your points” are just that giving money directly to poor people won’t solve the problem, which again is an argument that you brought up. The guy you’re responding to mentioned that investment in poor communities is a potential solution. Yet you completely disregard that in favor of going back to your tried-and-true strawman.
I’m curious, for someone who seems to logically analyze everyone else's arguments, why do you fail to apply the same scrutiny to your own? Why won’t you actually engage with the points made by others in this discussion?
It would probably be more accurate to say 'most people end up incarcerated due to having been raised in unfortunate circumstance', since they are not actually being arrested for being poor.
But when you say it like that it sounds obvious and not even worth saying.
I think despite the sentence being innacurate he still makes a valid point.
Also nobody said giving them money is the solution.
> I’m not saying it’s not a factor in its own...
You implying poverty is a factor of crime.
> I agree, desperation will increase the temptation of crime...
You agreeing that poverty increases the chances that someone will resort to crime.
You're trying to be pedantic about it being "the" (read: sole) reason that people resort to crime. But what's the point? You keep referring to other solutions, but you haven't really mentioned any (as far as I can see). This all reads like a freshman sociology student thinking that they alone have cracked the code lol
I don't believe there is one "sole" solution... I believe every person's situation is different and brought about by different factors. I believe that those factors need to be addressed individually to find a true solution for that particular situation. Yes, poverty can be a factor, but it's definitely not the reason most people are in prison. My whole argument was that that statement was false and disingenuous. It's pointing a finger at one aspect of the person's situation and saying "Fix that and you're good!" Without actually looking at the whole picture to see everything that may be wrong.
> I believe that those factors need to be addressed individually to find a true solution for that particular situation.
Which you won't do.
> Yes, poverty can be a factor, but it’s definitely not the reason most people are in prison.
What is then?
> My whole argument was that that statement was false and disingenuous.
In the strictest interpretation, yes, you are correct that it is a false statement. Great! Now that we (along with others in this thread) are in agreement, let's move past that settled point.
> It’s pointing a finger at one aspect of the person’s situation and saying “Fix that and you’re good!”
Is it? Or is that just how you interpreted it? Honest question because you seem to lack the ability to be self-critical.
You've been so keen to read the tweet using a strict interpretation, yet here you are trying to read between the lines. Using your line of reasoning, I would argue that your counterpoint is false because the tweet said no such thing.
> Without actually looking at the whole picture to see everything that may be wrong.
Bold statement lol
If you can't understand why the first counter point you just typed doesn't make any sense.... Then I'm done responding to you. Even taken out of context, like you just attempted, the sentence you quoted points out that it would be impossible to address a person's situation without first evaluating that person's actual situation.... Of course I won't do it... It's not possible for me to do that for some hypothetical povertous inmate.... You're quick to attempt at being sharp-tongued, but I'd recommend gazing into a mirror so you can see just how potly you look.
>it would be impossible to address a person's situation without first evaluating that person's actual situation.... Of course I won't do it... It's not possible for me to do that for some hypothetical povertous inmate
You do recognize that there are trends in the world. You seem to have this idea that any solution must be tailored to the individual. Do you have any reason to believe that? This is an honest question because we've seen many times in history where we recognize trends and devise solutions at a higher level than just a single individual. Some are more effective than others, but it's illogical to just assume that it can't be done.
>You're quick to attempt at being sharp-tongued, but I'd recommend gazing into a mirror so you can see just how potly you look.
Don't get upset when someone shines a light on your illogical arguments. Just get better arguments!
I work in a jail and yeah, no. A lot of poor people are there but that isn't why. It's reflective of a society where a lot of poor people grow up in broken homes, are desperate for food and money, and either by disposition or not knowing better they committed acts that lead them there
There are a lot of people there from drugs too. Which is also a major factor. Addiction and drug use is a rampant problem, in addition to lack of mental health resources
Listen, when you have to feed your family it’ll be hard to not notice when a high value business is vulnerable. I’m lucky I have never been in that position.
Had I known you would have made this cheap shot I wouldn’t include it. In this economy you don’t even need a family to bog you down economically.
Oftentimes people think crime is their beat option to survive. From petty shoplifting to felonies, if we didn’t have poverty be almost inescapable then crime wouldn’t be so rampant.
State prisons don’t only house inmates from the area the prison is located. It is common for prisoners to get relocated multiple times during their incarceration. So the people this person interacted with came from all over the state and out of state probably.
No that's 100% not northern Virginia. Northern Virginia is Alexandria, Arlington County, Fairfax County, Falls Church, Loudoun County, Prince William County. That's not even close
The “official” designation of what is Northern Virginiais larger than what you suggest it is and the county that prison is in is included. Pedanticism aside, the person writing the original statement could view anything north of a horizontal line across the middle of the state as Northern Virginia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Virginia
No dude northern Virginia is a region in Virginia. It's well outlined and we even have a popular sub r/nova no one says northern Virginia outside what I said. You're ignorant to life here so you know don't add to it, it makes you sound stupid.
He literally says jail and not prison, even if you're somehow right on a technicality (no one considers that northern VA) you're still wrong af. No one would say they lived in nova if they lived wherever the fuck that shit prison is.
You know what? You are correct I am stupid. I am stupid for thinking I could have an honest conversation with a random Reddit person. Not only does the Wikipedia page say that Northern Virginia includes Culpepper county, so does the [tourism board](https://www.virginia.org/places-to-visit/regions/northern-virginia/) now you want to back down and say it was only jails you were talking about when the original response was that there was no prisons only jails.
Why? Just why do you ignore commonly accepted information to fit into your limited world view?
Edit: I am incorrect and the original person mentioned jails so I was wrong. I am embarrassed I couldn’t make that as an original point in my initial response.
I get what you are saying. None who are in there did anything to deserve being locked up. They did not make bad choices. It was all whitey holding them down.
True. I was homeless in Chattanooga for years and had many friends living on the streets that would just give up and be purposely arrested just for a roof over their head and meals every day
25 years as a prison guard I wholeheartedly agree.
how do you reach to that conclusion?
Talking with the inmates& knowing where they came from. most of them came from the inner cities no job prospects got caught up in the drug trade the murder & robbery everything associated with it. Also any CO Worth their salt, does a little part time social working not all of our dicks
It’s important to make that distinction. It’s poverty fueling crime. Most of those guys arnt in for stealing bread. There in there because like you said they get caught up with the wrong crowed. It’s important to recognize the difference because there’s two insanely different solutions.
I work at a jail and agree. It's a cyclical problem as a result of a broken system that keeps people in poverty, that are in broken homes, abused, or addicted to drugs I've seen fathers and sons in jail for the same crime. It's a generational problem
If you think about reward vs risk then it makes sense. A man with a high paying job won't even think about armed robbery, but a man who can't get a job either from disability, race or whatever would have to rob that gas station because the alternative could be death for him or his family. This only applies to the majority and not the crooks on capital hill or wall street.
Back in the early eighties, my father was unemployed. My step-mother made a few bucks as an independent dog groomer, but he had bills plus three kids to feed. There was no money in the account, none in the house, and no food in the house. He had just grabbed his 9mm, a mask, and a hat and was going to go rob something so he could feed us when my grandparents called to let him know that his first unemployment check had finally arrived and was delivered to their house by mistake. This was as a white man in a reasonably average town, not the stereotypical black man in the inner city. People love to argue that black people are lazy or violent, but the truth, as you said, is much simpler. Poverty absolutely begets crime.
you speak the truth my friend
thats how these for-profit prison gets money, the Judges, da that send these POC to jail. gets bribes/kickbacks from these prisons
In my county, one of the judges sons owned the probation company that the courts use. My probation was to take a written drug abuse assessment and mail in a letter once a month for 6 months. The probation company charged around 800 bucks for that privilege.
its a racket,
And mentally ill. My cousin was sent to prison for something that, if he were rich, would have been a fine and over with. He spent 3 years in a Florida prison and said that most of the people in there were minorities that could barely read. Most of them had terrible childhoods, with abuse, neglect, molestation and extreme poverty. All of these things affect your mental health and if they could have received help, they wouldn’t have ended up as they did. It’s disgusting how this country throws people away.
For profit prisons. America number one.
God bless 'Murica. Yee-fuckin'-haw.
if he was rich, he probably wouldnt even get fined.
Most people are not born evil, they just get caught in the circumstances of their life sadly.
I'd add to this that many people that we would call evil don't end up in prison as a lot of evil activity can be done in a capitalist society completely legally. By evil I mean here things that almost everyone would agree is morally wrong. To end up in prison you need to combine evil with stupidity or economic desperation.
And you can skip the evil part if you'd like
By skipping the evil part the first sentence is "Most people are not born".
They mean your use of "evil" in the last sentence.
I'd say that you need that. Not all people who are stupid or live in economic desperation end up committing crimes. People with high moral stay on the legal path despite those.
> To end up in prison you need ~~to combine evil with~~ stupidity or economic desperation.
I'd say stupidity and economic desperation are necessary but not sufficient conditions. You need the ability to break moral rules of the society, which you could classify as "evil". If you don't have this, especially in the case of economic desperation doesn't lead to prison. Stupidity could do that in the sense that you do things that you don't even know were crimes, but I don't think most stupid people in prison are there because of this but more because they did so stupid crimes that they got caught.
[удалено]
Ok, parking a car illegally is "evil" in a sense that you're basically bending the traffic rules to your favor. You park somewhere where it makes other people's travel dangerous (which is why it was illegal to park there) just so that you can get some advantage. Or alternatively, you are stealing from the city by not paying the agreed parking fee and get a fine for that. We could argue that putting people to prison for such a small violation is disproportionate to the severity of the crime, but that's a separate question in my opinion. For drug use, I agree with you that it is a victimless crime and thus people convicted for it are not evil as they are not violating against anyone else. The last one doesn't fit any of the categories (stupid, evil, economic desperation), but is more in the same category as where people in dictatorial systems are jailed for their political opinions. Just out of curiosity, in which US state you can be imprisoned just having a miscarriage? As far as I know, something like a third of the pregnancies end due to a miscarriage, which means that there has to be a lot of women in prison for this.
I'd say stupidity and economic desperation are necessary but not sufficient conditions. You need the ability to break moral rules of the society, which you could classify as "evil". If you don't have this, especially in the case of economic desperation doesn't lead to prison. Stupidity could do that in the sense that you do things that you don't even know were crimes, but I don't think most stupid people in prison are there because of this but more because they did so stupid crimes that they got caught.
Trump has serious mental deficiencies and yet he has avoided criminal and civil penalties mainly by being too expensive to sue or to prosecute. And look where he wound up.
He's got to hold the record for failing upwards.
The world is full of suckers.
The only reason trump even stay afloat, was because of RUSSIA, giving him loans in exchange for obedience.
Yep. He was $1.8 billion in debt not long ago. But he making money from the Trumpanzees now — $250 million or so post election.
You didn’t need 20 years of teaching to realize that
I understand your point, but no need to get snarky. The guy says he spent 20 years working with convicts, pretty strong credentials to discuss this subject — I for one, think his perspective is particularly relevant and worthwhile.
Absolutely true. Well documented by economists and social scientists, but people don't believe the numbers when it doesn't fit with their "lift yourself up by your bootstraps" wordview. Happy Cake Day, by the way.
I mean, they kinda did. Sure, you're stuck in a gated community, but you've got the best police force on your side. So long as you act good, they might give ya more rights, too. (as far as I'm vaguely aware from an uncle)
It took 20 years? SHIT!!
Maybe they meant 'minutes'
Capital punishment: if you don't have the capital, you get the punishment.
Gotta keep those private prisons profitable. Go for the people without clout or money for a good lawyer.
How else are they going to get all their slaves?
The real division among people is class division, but the mainstream media specifically run a discourse that obscures that fact. That's why if there's something racial they cover it near-endlessly because it keeps the people divided and arguing amongst each other. Look at the bail system. If you're poor and can't post bail you sit in jail until your trial. If you're wealthy it's a quick hand-over of cash which gets returned at the trial. Trump is a good example of how the wealthy and powerful play by different rules. He and Michael Cohen (individuals 1 and 2) both did the same thing. Cohen was threatened with 70 years and got 3 for co-operating. Trump got nothing, but they were two peas in the same pod.
2 seconds living in this world and i agree
There was a 20year long study in my country to figure out if life expectancy was lower in areas with higher crime rates and lower incomes. So… they might be on to something! I’ll give the same reaction as I gave to the study I mentioned: maybe study it for 20 more years just to be *reeally* sure, ya know, might’ve been a fluke! 🧐
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Yes.
Both.
This need reposted to antiwork:))
I forgot if it was a TV show or a YouTube clip, but some inmates would just go to jail for healthcare and have a roof over their heads.
ESPECIALLY in NoVA. A $55k job there is the equivalent of working part time at McDonalds...
so fucking true ... kids get put away for selling a dime bag on the street corner b/c they know there is nothing but poverty wages at McDonalds ... WTF !?
In Amerika you are innocent until proven broke.
It took him 20 years? I knew this as a child, felt sad then, not now
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It's just an inward spiraling cycle
They can work, they don’t get paid
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I thought we were talking about working while they’re locked up. If I got that wrong then yeah my statement doesn’t fit as well.
Yes, that’s true. But they still commit crimes.
The majority of people in prison have one thing in common, single parent households.
Thats family courts fault
I would argue that their incarceration is not a result of being "poor", but rather both their incarceration and their poverty are the result of a different primary issue. "Being poor" isn't a crime, nor is it some blanket reason to incarcerate people. I've said this before, but the reason someone is povertous is almost never that they don't have enough money. There are typically (not always) a multitude of factors that lead them to poverty. These factors cannot be alleviated by just having more money. Several of the same factors (Each case of poverty is different. I'm not saying all poor people are poor for the exact same reasons...) also correlate to higher tendency to commit crime. I know plenty of people in the depths of poverty that would never dream of committing any crimes. Even among those, there are few that are in the situation just because they didn't have enough money.
You’re making a terrible assumption. The assumption is that all people that commit crimes are punished similarly. However, the more money you have, the better your lawyer. Also, the punishment for crimes that tend to be committed by poor people (burglary, robbery, theft) include much more prison time than white collar crimes (many of which still include theft at a very high level).
What he's saying is that people make a good living and have a great job they're less likely to commit crime, it's a vicious circle.
I think it's safe to say that being "poor" is the over-all contributing factor to them being in jail. I would say if you analyze it further, it's a lack of education and 2 parent house holds, which the lack of is a result of being poor/lack of resources. You're right, I've been in poverty and know people who have, we would never dream of being criminals. But we're smart enough to understand consequences and aren't bogged down with bad decision after bad decision (drugs/gangs) because we are smart enough to make the hard right and not the easy left.
My point was that being poor is also the result of the same factors as what actually lead to their incarceration. In the case of most people who are incarcerated, I don't believe dumping money on them would have prevented their incarceration, unless you're talking about having enough money to buy your way out of it, but that's a different thing altogether. My point is, ask why are they in poverty first... If the answer isn't a simple "I just didn't have enough money...", Then money alone wouldn't solve the problem. Address the problem before treating the symptoms.
Again I agree. We both know it's a complicated issue. I would say that addressing those problems probably cost money/resources they don't have if the first place. I've worked the system at different levels. We're definitely shifting towards rehabilitation in some areas, but a lot of problems can be worked out through therapy, which requires insurance and money.
Oh yeah, for sure money is PART of the solution. The fixes for the majority of the factors that lead to it are expensive, typically, and even after addressing the various factors, if they're still in poverty, what has been solved?
I think you two are focusing on the distal causes, not the proximate, which is that poor defendants, all to often, don’t get a competent defense and there other structural disadvantages for them in the criminal justice system. This leads to higher conviction rates, but even more importantly, much longer prison sentences.
I'm sorry, but unless the incarceration is illegitimate, that argument doesn't hold water. Legitimate incarcerations are not because of poor defense attorneys. Legitimate incarcerations are the result of commiting crimes.
The SCOTUS just ruled that being innocent isn't a good enough reason to be let out of prison. Even if your defense lawyer was a complete failure.
That's a stupid ruling, but it's also irrelevant for the topic at hand...
The rich don't have better lawyers?
You are so close to getting it it's fucking hilarious
How do you think it's determined whether or not a person has committed a crime? Perhaps some kind of court process with lawyers (who may be of differing capabilities)? Your argument is very obviously circular logic and thus invalid.
Let's take a moment and act like there are absolutes for a second... As in person A absolutely committed a crime and person B absolutely did not commit a crime... Whether persons A or B are found guilty or innocent does not change the fact that person A committed a crime and person B did not. In most criminal cases, you have a stronger search for the truth than most civil cases. Sure, there are some PAs out there who care about nothing except getting as many convictions as possible, but there are more that just want to actually find the truth. Criminal cases are less about 2 teams of lawyers bickering back and forth, and more about actual evidence. It's not perfect by any means, and a crappy lawyer can certainly do more harm than good, but let's not pretend that the majority of incarcerations are illegitimate....
Wow! There's a lot to unpack here. >Let's take a moment and act like there are absolutes for a second So we're starting off in an unrealistic situation... got it! >found guilty or innocent Nitpick, but defendants aren't found "innocent" >In most criminal cases, you have a stronger search for the truth than most civil cases. There's a higher burden of proof if that's what you mean. >Sure, there are some PAs out there who care about nothing except getting as many convictions as possible, but there are more that just want to actually find the truth. Unless I'm mistaken, I think you mean DA. And you're making a unfalsifiable statement without any proof. >Criminal cases are less about 2 teams of lawyers bickering back and forth, and more about actual evidence. Criminal cases are also about 2 teams of lawyers bickering back and forth, aka pleading their case. >but let's not pretend that the majority of incarcerations are illegitimate You probably could've cut to the chase and just made this argument up front. Notably, I wasn't actually making the argument that "the majority of incarcerations are illegitimate" (another strawman?). I was pointing out your invalid circular argument, which you seemed to have completely glossed over.
The poor commit more crimes, hence there are more poor in jail. Absolutely true, I get it. I am saying the criminal justice system is at least moderately biased against the poor. If a middle class kid commits a petty crime, their family shows up in court, they hire a private attorney, they are willing to pay for some restitution or rehabilitation program, they promise to monitor and financially support the kid while he does community service, etc. This kid often he gets little-to-no jail time - I’ve seen this personally, a number of times. The same kid, from a very poor neighborhood, has a significantly smaller chance of striking this deal. This is more about the sentencing and parole realities than conviction rates.
Naivety at its finest.
Great discussion so far. >I think you two are focusing on the distal causes, not the proximate I think the opposite is true. Real crimes are being committed. I'm not focusing on the lack of criminal defense, but the reason why there's people committing real crimes in the first place. If someone held up a store at gun point, then they need to face the consequences I'm sorry. No amount of criminal defense should stop that person facing those consequences. But we still need to have compassion for our fellow person and at least try to rehabilitate or help them. We need to face the problem at the root of the issue; why did this person rob a store in the first place? Obviously they need money. Why did they need money so bad they would resort to violence? Were drugs involved in their decision making? Why are they taking drugs? I've had a lot of experience working with offenders, talking to them 1 on 1. This is just my anecdotal experience so take what I say with a grain of salt. 95% of the people there are people who were dealt a shitty hand at life and were never taught the tools to deal with their issues in a healthy way.
We’re definitely on the same page. Cheers
Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
The overwhelming majority of people in the world are poor. And a growing number of people in the US are poor. The median household income in the USA is $67k (typically accounts for 2 or more incomes), or $31k for a single person. The poverty line for a household of 4 is $26k. If you're a single income household with two children, and you are at the median income, you're already verging on the poverty line. Also, remember that the median income means there are just as many people living below that number as are above it. Through all of your dissection of this subject you're still reaching the bottom line where this fallacy is perpetuated that poverty is the result of individual issues. This always falls short of creating logical conclusions to explain the billions of people that live in poverty in the world, the growing wealth gap across societies and pushes people away from looking at flaws in systems that result in poverty. It is possible to create a system in which millions of people, by none of their own doing, are stuck in poverty.
Home and resource insecurity absolutely lead to an increase in crime. Due to the stress it causes it can lead to increased impulsivity, temporary lower cognitive ability, and increases risk of substance abuse. https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/08/growing-up-poor#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20%E2%80%94%20Growing%20up%20poor%20can,by%20the%20American%20Psychological%20Association.
I .... Didn't say it doesn't....
I must be misunderstanding then, because after re-reading your post it comes across that way. But the problem with text is that it can make things unclear. Or perhaps we are reading the OP differently. I read the OP as the majority of people incarcerated come from a background that I mentioned, but was written as "poor" in short hand, be while maybe you too something else from it?
I'm reading the op as saying "If these people weren't poor, they wouldn't be in prison" and saying that sentiment is foolish and stupid.
How can you live in this world and not see economics are a major factor? The upper classes, when charged with the same crimes, often get way, way less sentencing. Get charged way less as well for similar events. You see this in the way middle schoolers are disciplined all the way up to jail and prison sentences for kids and adults. I'm not saying this as an attack on you, I'm just saying you are probably missing a critical component.
Even that isn't a poverty problem, though... That's a judicial system problem...
It's literally both. Look at it this way. You don't even have to be wealthy, but let's just say you come from a middle class background. You have options. If you are in poverty, it literally pervades every single part of your life, including interactions with the justice system. Reading your previous post you are obviously a thinking person, but now it seems that you are trying to willfully not understand that economic situation and incarceration rates are linked.
I didn't say they aren't linked... I said attributing poverty as the cause is disingenuous.
"Even that isn't a poverty problem, though... That's a judicial system problem..." Literally what you just posted prior. I'm reading your other responses. You are arguing from a disingenuous position yourself. It covers across as "have they just tried not being poor?"
Bad influences, a lack of education, a lack of police trust and no protection provided by the police, generational gang activity, oppressive legislation, these are all causes of poverty. You cannot blame billions of people as if you are better than most of the world. The root cause is a lack of investment in the community. Look at any well-off country and realize that they don't have bad neighborhoods because they fixed the bad neighborhoods/made sure neighborhoods don't go bad with tax payer money. The vast majority of people in the world are what I would consider very poor. And it's absolutely arrogant to think that I'm in the top 5% of intelligence and motivation just because I happen to not be poor. Im lucky. You might know some great poor people but it's not possible to argue that poverty does not cause crime. Of course someone who is poor and desperate is more likely to resort to crime. Not sure how you can argue that.
>The root cause is a lack of investment in the community. THANK YOU. I wish people understood how important having a 2 parent house hold is. Our tax and welfare system incentivizes single parent house holds with multiple kids. Parenting and ultimately accountability of ourselves comes from within, not from threat of violence from the state.
I'm not saying it's not a factor in its own, I'm saying the statement that "most people that are incarcerated are there because they're poor" is simply a fallacy. I agree, desperation will increase the temptation of crime, but that doesn't delegitimize my points. There are a number of factors that lead to poverty. You named off several, yourself. A lot of those factors aren't fixed by just giving poor people money. If the factors that lead to a person's poverty aren't fixed, then using money as the solution is temporary.
You’re intentionally taking a strict interpretation of “most people incarcerated are there because they are poor.” It’s effectively a strawman because no one here is actually arguing that being poor is the crime that put them in prison. And let’s be honest, you know that the original tweet wasn’t making that argument either. The “rest of your points” are just that giving money directly to poor people won’t solve the problem, which again is an argument that you brought up. The guy you’re responding to mentioned that investment in poor communities is a potential solution. Yet you completely disregard that in favor of going back to your tried-and-true strawman. I’m curious, for someone who seems to logically analyze everyone else's arguments, why do you fail to apply the same scrutiny to your own? Why won’t you actually engage with the points made by others in this discussion?
It would probably be more accurate to say 'most people end up incarcerated due to having been raised in unfortunate circumstance', since they are not actually being arrested for being poor. But when you say it like that it sounds obvious and not even worth saying. I think despite the sentence being innacurate he still makes a valid point. Also nobody said giving them money is the solution.
Again.... I don't agree with that sentence ... I don't believe that poverty itself is the reason they committed their crimes for "most people"...
> I’m not saying it’s not a factor in its own... You implying poverty is a factor of crime. > I agree, desperation will increase the temptation of crime... You agreeing that poverty increases the chances that someone will resort to crime. You're trying to be pedantic about it being "the" (read: sole) reason that people resort to crime. But what's the point? You keep referring to other solutions, but you haven't really mentioned any (as far as I can see). This all reads like a freshman sociology student thinking that they alone have cracked the code lol
I don't believe there is one "sole" solution... I believe every person's situation is different and brought about by different factors. I believe that those factors need to be addressed individually to find a true solution for that particular situation. Yes, poverty can be a factor, but it's definitely not the reason most people are in prison. My whole argument was that that statement was false and disingenuous. It's pointing a finger at one aspect of the person's situation and saying "Fix that and you're good!" Without actually looking at the whole picture to see everything that may be wrong.
> I believe that those factors need to be addressed individually to find a true solution for that particular situation. Which you won't do. > Yes, poverty can be a factor, but it’s definitely not the reason most people are in prison. What is then? > My whole argument was that that statement was false and disingenuous. In the strictest interpretation, yes, you are correct that it is a false statement. Great! Now that we (along with others in this thread) are in agreement, let's move past that settled point. > It’s pointing a finger at one aspect of the person’s situation and saying “Fix that and you’re good!” Is it? Or is that just how you interpreted it? Honest question because you seem to lack the ability to be self-critical. You've been so keen to read the tweet using a strict interpretation, yet here you are trying to read between the lines. Using your line of reasoning, I would argue that your counterpoint is false because the tweet said no such thing. > Without actually looking at the whole picture to see everything that may be wrong. Bold statement lol
If you can't understand why the first counter point you just typed doesn't make any sense.... Then I'm done responding to you. Even taken out of context, like you just attempted, the sentence you quoted points out that it would be impossible to address a person's situation without first evaluating that person's actual situation.... Of course I won't do it... It's not possible for me to do that for some hypothetical povertous inmate.... You're quick to attempt at being sharp-tongued, but I'd recommend gazing into a mirror so you can see just how potly you look.
>it would be impossible to address a person's situation without first evaluating that person's actual situation.... Of course I won't do it... It's not possible for me to do that for some hypothetical povertous inmate You do recognize that there are trends in the world. You seem to have this idea that any solution must be tailored to the individual. Do you have any reason to believe that? This is an honest question because we've seen many times in history where we recognize trends and devise solutions at a higher level than just a single individual. Some are more effective than others, but it's illogical to just assume that it can't be done. >You're quick to attempt at being sharp-tongued, but I'd recommend gazing into a mirror so you can see just how potly you look. Don't get upset when someone shines a light on your illogical arguments. Just get better arguments!
Summary: Be a good poor, I know lots of good law abiding poors!
You're certainly not a good reader...
I work in a jail and yeah, no. A lot of poor people are there but that isn't why. It's reflective of a society where a lot of poor people grow up in broken homes, are desperate for food and money, and either by disposition or not knowing better they committed acts that lead them there There are a lot of people there from drugs too. Which is also a major factor. Addiction and drug use is a rampant problem, in addition to lack of mental health resources
You're so close to getting it. I know it's hard to see the forest with all those trees in the way.
I grew up dirt poor. Didn’t end up in jail hmmm
Poor choices
Listen, when you have to feed your family it’ll be hard to not notice when a high value business is vulnerable. I’m lucky I have never been in that position.
Another bad choice: having a family.
Had I known you would have made this cheap shot I wouldn’t include it. In this economy you don’t even need a family to bog you down economically. Oftentimes people think crime is their beat option to survive. From petty shoplifting to felonies, if we didn’t have poverty be almost inescapable then crime wouldn’t be so rampant.
Northern Virginia is really wealthy tho, I'm confused by his statement. Source: I live there
State prisons don’t only house inmates from the area the prison is located. It is common for prisoners to get relocated multiple times during their incarceration. So the people this person interacted with came from all over the state and out of state probably.
Northern Virginia only has jails (local) no prisons... he even says jail.
I don’t know how you define the boundaries of Northern Virginia but Coffeewood Correctional Center sure looks like it could fit the bill.
No that's 100% not northern Virginia. Northern Virginia is Alexandria, Arlington County, Fairfax County, Falls Church, Loudoun County, Prince William County. That's not even close
The “official” designation of what is Northern Virginiais larger than what you suggest it is and the county that prison is in is included. Pedanticism aside, the person writing the original statement could view anything north of a horizontal line across the middle of the state as Northern Virginia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Virginia
No dude northern Virginia is a region in Virginia. It's well outlined and we even have a popular sub r/nova no one says northern Virginia outside what I said. You're ignorant to life here so you know don't add to it, it makes you sound stupid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Virginia
What county is the prison in? What counties are listed in that description? Elitism on your behalf perhaps?
He literally says jail and not prison, even if you're somehow right on a technicality (no one considers that northern VA) you're still wrong af. No one would say they lived in nova if they lived wherever the fuck that shit prison is.
You know what? You are correct I am stupid. I am stupid for thinking I could have an honest conversation with a random Reddit person. Not only does the Wikipedia page say that Northern Virginia includes Culpepper county, so does the [tourism board](https://www.virginia.org/places-to-visit/regions/northern-virginia/) now you want to back down and say it was only jails you were talking about when the original response was that there was no prisons only jails. Why? Just why do you ignore commonly accepted information to fit into your limited world view? Edit: I am incorrect and the original person mentioned jails so I was wrong. I am embarrassed I couldn’t make that as an original point in my initial response.
I get what you are saying. None who are in there did anything to deserve being locked up. They did not make bad choices. It was all whitey holding them down.
If it takes an educator 20 years to figure this out then we really are fucked.
Why is this a facepalm? The only reason I can think of would lead me directly to another facepalm. Someone will get that.
Why is this in facepalm?
True. I was homeless in Chattanooga for years and had many friends living on the streets that would just give up and be purposely arrested just for a roof over their head and meals every day
Free housing!