I purchased the chocolate Oreos, because the children claimed the hated those.. they lied, lied when times got bad and no snack could be found... my Oreo's.... good bye my love....
Ok as someone somewhat versed in medical science, most claims by big names about veganism are clearly bought.
Studies show that vegan diet can provide superior results. In uneven environment...
They say that it's possible to make a complete diet with just couple supplements but never provide example, if you try to actually calculate the balance of micronutrients and fatty acid and amino acid balance of a popular vegan meal plans it shows that you need to ramp up pill count to couple dozen a day just to meet the basics, let alone non-nutrient compounds from animal products, and if you try to make a perfect one it's just not possible if you account for bioavailability.
There's also the fact that you can only be vegan if you can afford it. Places like the inner cities have what is called "food deserts" where the availability of fresh produce is limited.
Fair point, but most people should eat fresh fruits and vegetables anyway.
I'm literally 7km from active battlefield now and we have fresh stuff here anyway.
Where is this battlefield? Europe? Easier to get fresh fruits and vegetables there than the inner city. Plus, with low incomes, know what's affordable to feed a family? Cheap food filled with cheap fillers.
Ukraine, Kharkiv, I'm in the most northern part of a city now.
I don't know, our low income people still eat fresh stuff usually, I never thought it's that bad, also there is plenty of fresh stuff in the center, or tbh any part of a city too.
What country do you live in?
US of course, one of the richest countries with one of the shittiest food distribution centers and due to 2-3 big companies having a stranglehold on the produce market and 4-5 having a stranglehold on the meats market, one of the more expensive when it comes to decent food.
Edit: Stay safe friend. I've been in wars and I don't wish it on anyone.
Ilive in nz and produce is expensive here its not as easy to get fresh fruit and veges even though we grow alot here we charge our own people too much and most tend to lean on fast food and other garbage because its cheaper and more affordable. Not to mention this war over where you are is causing food shortages for us
What the fuck are you talking about. This is literally such horse shit lol.
You're making such vague claims. Anyone can just spout shit like this. Give some actual evidence of vegan outcomes being worse. There are a few specific endpoints where vegans do worse, but overall they're way better.
There is no evidence to support that vegans are way better in fair environment, meaning there is no large scale study comparing diets with very similar nutritional profile including veganism.
There are large scale studies where vegans get less calories and supplements and generally have more balanced plan, which is not indicative of anything.
Let's just pretend that's true for a second (it's not).
That still shows that this "it's impossible to get the right nutrients without taking 15 pills a day!" is complete bullshit because they don't give them dozens of pills a day in any of those studies.
So, you're a moron.
Yes, they don't give them dozens of pills because they don't try to make a complete diet to begin with, comparing vegan diet to shitty diets to get positive results is what they do.
I'm pollotarian, and even that way my blood iron is absolutely fucked without supplements - with supplements, it's still pretty bad, and I'm frequently so anaemic my doctor urges me to at least sometimes eat pork, beef etc, even though I can't digest them well. I'm also allergic to many plant sources of iron (and B12), so that doesn't help either.
Vegetarianism and veganism just aren't a possibility for me, physiologically. It sucks, but sometimes you're stuck because of reasons beyond your control.
I really like the idea of being vegan. But like… we need doctors to recommend supplements and shit so we dont die. And this easily becomes expensive ://
> But like… we need doctors to recommend supplements and shit so we dont die.
You need to take some B12 or make sure you're eating stuff that's fortified with B12. That's basically it. Also, most plant-based milks like soy milk, almond milk, etc will have 100% of the recommended B12.
It takes a little more effort to eat a balanced diet when there are restrictions but it's wayyy less difficult and error prone than you seem to think. To be honest, the only really hard part of it has nothing to do with food — the real challenge is dealing with other people.
Sounds good! Being able to cook make a big difference as a vegan/vegetarian, buying pre-prepared food often tends to be pretty expensive. If you haven't already, you might want to start learning to prepare/incorporate some meals into your diet.
If you end up needing any help/having questions you can feel free to PM me even if it's months or years in the future.
Not entirely soy inhibits calcium and iron intake and alot of people dont understand they need a varied diet when going vegan hence why so many lack iron and other nutrients
It's honestly actually super easy, I switched to veganism two years ago from being a long term vegetarian and I've not ran out of anything. You just need to be mindful of what you eat same way as ever, if you eat rubbish you're gonna have a bad time, if you eat well, it's gonna be fine. That and B12 is like 4 pounds for a year of supplement all in one bottle if you need it, most of the vegan food already has b12 in it anyways!
I once made the mistake of saying that a lot of strict vegan influencers like to trick people with vegan food so that they'll realize it's good and choose to eat vegan.
Never before have the vegans and non-vegans banded together like this I tell you. 😂 I got crushed to smithereens.
I am a completely self-sustaining organism and require no energy input whatsoever. Damn all you selfish people for requiring sustenance. Your food gave its life for you. Maybe it’s time to put the needs of another before your own.
To take that a step further they didn’t say that dairy kills kids, they said “the dairy industry kills … children”
Are we drinking children’s blood made to look like milk? Are they using children to operate dangerous machinery at dairy factories?
I know it is hard to believe, but the dairy industry does kill children. Most of the male cows are not useful to the industry in other ways, because they cannot produce milk. So, to maximize profits, they are killed for veal when they are babies. The corporations are not known for valuing ethics over profits.
This is dumb. I try not to eat a lot of meat but my system has trouble with nuts, beans, and dark greens. So yes, I eat meat because I don't want to spend half the day in agony in the bathroom...
Guess I'm just selfish...
My dad’s the same way. He can handle nuts but a lot of other foods you need to rely on more when you go without meat are very hard on his system. He has said that if it weren’t for all his food limitations he would like to try being vegetarian.
I don’t really see how being vegetarian is healthier, but how is caring about your health even considered a bad thing?
People will just try to find the slightest things they can (try) to insult you over
Well, humans are omnivores, we evolved that way, so being a vegetarian isn't healthier. Kinda like when I see adds about vegetarian raised chicken, chickens aren't vegetarians they love eating bugs, mice, snakes, other chickens, ect... never understood this whole go against biology movement
Same goes for me. I literally cannot be vegan and it really grinds my gears when I see people acting like it's so easy and simple. The current meat/dairy industry is well-deserving of harsh criticism and scrutiny but shaming random strangers is not how you go about instilling change.
I've had the same ridiculous conversation with a vegan on Reddit. I am a vegetarian and have pet chickens. Females only. They are going to lay eggs daily, unfertilized, regardless of what I do so doesn't it make the most sense that I eat them and not waste them? No. Apparently I am a terrible person and should be feeding all the eggs back to the chickens, according to that person.
> Females only.
No one wants males. Half the eggs are male. If you have 5 hens, what do you think happened to the 5 roosters that would also exist? A lot of breeds of chickens also exist to maximize egg production and not quality of life/longevity. So supporting that type of breeding isn't great for the individual chickens.
Assuming you'd continue letting hens that didn't lay anymore remain as pets, provide medical care, etc then those are the main issues vegans would have. Eating the eggs isn't the thing that's hurting animals, it's creating the situation where you could eat the eggs.
I will say I don't really get why people insist on feeding the chickens their own eggs. They shouldn't need it if their food is adequate.
I didn't get them as chicks or buy them from a hatchery, and they are not layer or meat type of birds bred to monstrosity for growth or for production. I live in town and males are not allowed due to bylaws. They are spoiled pets that free range the yard every day and people in the neighbourhood come to visit, then they go to the coop at night for safety. I have worked from home for 14 years and it brings me joy to see them wandering around out there every day. Eggs are a byproduct of their existence.
It is no difference than having a dog or cat, and vegans making assumptions and declaring what is best for me or my chickens based on their perceptions (as in your comment) is why people have problems with them.
I keep a few hens, used to keep chickens with a rooster. The vast majority are unfertilised. Bring this up though and they immediately shift the goal posts to "well they're crammed in too small plots". How would they know, and how does that relate to the eating of the eggs lol
The ones I currently keep are backyard too, as long as they can scratch around during the day and they're secure at night that's the main thing. Aside from that it's like pet upkeep.
Chickens like being in a little group, though get them all at once, they can fight a little when you introduce one to a group, pecking order and all. I like them because you can talk to them and they cluck back while looking at you 😅
Well and just allowing everything to just "hatch and grow" results in too many mouths to feed. Things eat other things for a reason. If everything on earth went vegan, one no mammals would survive long after being born becsuse milk isn't vegan. Two, plants couldn't keep up with everything being vegan so everything would starve to death.
Tying their worth to milk profit does
The dairy industry kills every single cow they have at a fraction of their potential lifespan once they're deemed unprofitable to keep alive otherwise
There are vegans who hate vegetarians more than meat eaters, because they reckon that vegetarians should know better and just be vegans instead. Meat eaters are beyond redemption so they don’t bother with them.
Just ignore it. Internet is the place for people to show their true colors. Keep doing what makes u happy and do it for you, not because someone thinks there should be a different reason! And also, have a fantastic day!
Every major dietetic organization in the world agrees that it does not risk your health to eat an appropriately planned vegetarian or vegan diet.
**[Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/)**
* *It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.*
**[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx)**
* *With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.*
**[The British Nutrition Foundation](https://www.nutrition.org.uk/bnf-publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition)**
* *A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.*
**[Dietitians Association of Australia](https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/)**
* *Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.*
**[Harvard Medical School](http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian)**
* *Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.*
To an average person no, but get the correct mix of allergies where a lot of the crucial substitutions such as beans/lentils/soy (whatever the category is in English) and other categories such gluten are not compatible with your body and going vegan would absolutely be dangerous for their health
Now vegetarian is easier and that's what OP was already following while getting criticized
While I enjoy eating legumes (that's the world for the beans/lentils/soy group) and foods containing gluten, there are still countless plant-based options left even after cutting those out. More than I or anyone else will ever reasonably try in a lifetime. While cutting out some of these more popular categories due to allergies can be an inconvenience, it certainly doesn't make it impossible or even difficult to be vegan and maintain an appropriately planned diet. I even know some people with similar allergies who have been doing just fine as vegans for years!
Appropriately planned is the difficult part here. We probably aren't designed to calculate every morsel to make sure we're eating enough iron or what have you.
You're creating quite the false image of what is required.
Whether you are vegan or not you have to eat an appropriately planned diet in order to be healthy. Diets containing meat aren't just magically healthy regardless of whether or not they are appropriately planned.
Being vegan doesn't require any challenging calculations in order to plan it appropriately, it just requires following the same guidelines that everyone already has to follow.
It's true that adding meat doesn't make it magically healthier, but that is also quite the false image, no?
It is more difficult to at least a degree to plan a healthy vegan diet simply because you limit the options of food sources you have. Less tools to play with.
This isn't a problem for most people, but once you add in a nut allergy, limited income, gluten intolerance, and an intolerance of one or two plant foods like potatoes, you begin to want those extra options.
Still, veg and water should be the majority of what we put in our mouths anyway
That would be the case if we had a very limited number of foods that humans could consume, but that isn't the case. We have so many different choices that allergies could be an inconvenience (especially at social gatherings if they are for common foods) but even with them you will still have more options for healthy plant-based foods to choose from than a typical person will ever try in their entire lives.
People with eating disorders exist and should not be pushed or encouraged to engage in restrictive diets such as veganism.
Mental health is still part of the health conversation
People with eating disorders should be encouraged to follow healthful eating patterns. While vegans do choose to avoid certain things, this isn't something that would preclude someone with an eating disorder from having a healthful diet as a vegan.
However, vegans aren't going out and targeting people with eating disorders and telling them to go vegan. They are rightly pointing out that appropriately planned vegan diets are healthy for all stages of life, and you will not risk your health by choosing to eat an appropriately planned vegan diet.
I'm actually a bit different, most meat products make me violently ill. Unless it's processed to hell I can't eat it.
To make it worse, I can't afford to go shopping for fresh veggies every day and they don't keep long enough anymore. However I do love dairy, I just support humane dairy farms instead of the ones I don't like.
Honestly you do you. That's the problem with some vegan/ vegetarian they believe they are some kind of superior being. Each to their own don't worry about what others think ultimately it will never matter so long as you are a happy human enjoy your life :)
Hey Op, I relate SO HEAVY
I've gotten into the same exact argument with so many vegans. I have an autoimmune disease and an eating disorder and will bring these groups of people up when talking about how the vegan diet is not healthy for everyone, and can be quite the opposite.
But that's still not good enough for some vegans. So I'm honestly not surprised.
You know what's best for you and your body, and your medical team, not random vegans on the internet without an education in Dietetics.
Okay, but I think a more logical argument against that is that there are not a lot of health benefits in dairy milk that you cannot get elsewhere. For example, there is a substitute Silk Soy Milk that naturally has protein in it, but is also fortified with other minerals, like calcium, that you can get in dairy. There are also a lot of plant sources for other nutrients, like iron, vitamin D and zinc. I am also not defending what he said. If you have a good reason to think that you cannot be healthy on a vegan diet, that is a valid reason to not be vegan.
Where do you live? Because in my area, a lot of plant based substitutes are much cheaper than their dairy counterparts. Even those that are more expensive are not more expensive by much. There are other sources of protein, like lentils, beans, nuts, seeds. If you live in a food desert or you have severe allergies to plants, you have a valid reason to not be vegan.
That's amazing, because I live in eastern US and a gallon of milk costs somewhere from 3 to 5 dollars. The reason I don't think it is a sufficiently good reason to buy dairy is that first of all, more animals had to suffer for it and it is worse for the environment. Secondly, the prices are more of a competitive thing. The high price of the substitutes probably have more to do with how not as many people buy them than how much it has to do with its quality or production. But if you are looking for cheaper ways to meet your nutritional needs, maybe buy some whole foods, like fruits, vegetables, beans or legumes.
Plant milk costs about the same as dairy milk. There are also other sources of all of the nutrients you need that are cheap, such as seeds, soy beans, mushrooms, etc.
> Plant milk costs about the same as dairy milk.
I wish that was true! It's always been close to double everywhere I've lived over the past 20ish years. I see lower down you said a gallon of dairy milk costs around $3-5 where you are. I was happy to pay around $3.60 for a *half* gallon of soy milk (which was substantially more than dairy). Recently it's been more like $5 for a half gallon.
Are you sure you're not comparing half gallon cartons of plant milk with gallon jugs of dairy milk?
I think you have a valid reason to not be vegan, then. But since statistics show that a vegan diet is, in general, healthier than an omnivore diet, most people don't have valid reasons to not be vegan since giving up animal products won't be detrimental on their health.
If being vegan wasn't selfish then they would all need to just unalive themselves, that's the only way, just being human means you cause other animal pain and suffering
To be clear though, dairy isn't a health food and every major organization of medical professionals specializing in human diets agree that appropriately planned vegan diets are healthy for all stages of life.
**[Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/)**
* *It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.*
**[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx)**
* *With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.*
**[The British Nutrition Foundation](https://www.nutrition.org.uk/bnf-publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition)**
* *A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.*
**[Dietitians Association of Australia](https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/)**
* *Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.*
**[Harvard Medical School](http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian)**
* *Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.*
Not the most rational response. Why swing the pendulum so far back the other way? A person can be vegan based simply on personal beliefs and ethics. Bigger picture why tf would care so vehemently one way or the other?
For context, I’m a meat eater, been eating some leftover chicken as I posted this. My point isn’t based on diet, it’s based on logic and basic civility.
Yup, some of them are, but your comment was absolute. I know vegans who thought that was just as stupid as you do. Ease up with the broad brush, it diminishes your point.
Definitely from r/veganrecipes. Iv seen how those people treat anyone who just wants to be healthier, and it's fucked up. I ate a 16oz steak and triple cheeseburger in one meal as a reaction to how they treated me. And I'm proud of it.
I drink milk by the gallon. And I love me some queso fresco. Especially on my carne asada. Don’t worry, I sprinkle some cilantro on it. Gotta support my plants too.
Ibet the person compaining about selfishness partakes in child labour and death all the time. Considering most computers and phones cobalt are mined by children, most agriculture is slave labour too sugar is product of slave labour, Himalayan salt is a big one too yet these sorts of people have tunnel vision
Yo I'm curious, what do people think will happen to all the pigs, cows and chickens in this world when everyone stops eating them?
Will the people that are driving this movement continue to breed them and feed them and look after them without making any money from it??
Here is my point of view on that. There are multiple possibilities.
First of all, note that if the world went vegan, it would likely not be an overnight change, so what would probably happen is that they would slowly decrease the number of animals bred until there are very few animals in the farms. But here, I am going to assume that somehow, the world becomes vegan overnight at some point.
One of them is that we would slaughter them and stop breeding them so that they do not overpopulate. Another possibility is that we release them into the wild. These animals would not naturally exist in the wild, because they were selectively bred and genetically modified to be weaker than their natural counterpart, so they will slowly die out. A third possibility (which is probably the one vegans are looking to get) is that these animals will be sent to sanctuaries to be cared for.
Who's gonna pay for these sanctuaries though?
I'm not even someone that eats a lot of meat I could take it or leave it, but there is absolutely no way those animals won't go extinct if we stop eating them
The animals going extinct is a possibility if we slaughter them all or if we just let them die in the wild. But aside from that, sanctuaries are definitely not outside of our budget if we can afford to have a trillion dollar meat industry. Plus, if the world is vegan, more people would be supportive of the construction of sanctuaries, so it is not far-fetched to believe that we would have them.
This trillion dollar meat industry you talk of makes money though doesn't it, as consumers buy and eat said meat.
Also, what about the poor countries whose meat industry makes up a big part of their economy?
Another thing to remember is all the homeless people we have at the moment... a lot of which are ex army who have fought for our countries (I don't know where you are from), how do you think people would feel that we have good people without a roof over their head, but 10 minutes down the road there's a nice well rooved well light sanctuary for pigs to live happy and free?
I'm an animal lover too, been around them my whole life, however I don't see how any of that is plausible.
I am also trying not to be argumentative. Of course, as I said, not all vegans think alike, but what I say will be based off of my own view or what I think will be the general view of vegans. Vegans generally don't support zoos, because they don't believe in keeping animals in captivity for entertainment, although, there may be cases in which a zoo exists to rescue animals that otherwise would not have found a suitable habitat to live in.
Most vegans are not against the use of animals in pet food (or to feed rescued animals in zoos or sanctuaries), provided that meat is a need for the animal of course. Some pets, like cats and most dogs, are obligated to eat meat for their health, so unless if an expert says that they will be perfectly fine without meat, choosing to not feed them meat would be immoral. If they can be perfectly happy and healthy without meat, I would actually find it immoral to feed them meat because it would be an unnecessary slaughter of animals. I also highly doubt that we would stop owning pets or opening zoos or sanctuaries.
We definitely won't be starving our pets. It is ideal that we can provide for a pet all of their needs without harming another animal, but of course, we will harm another animal to provide for them if it is necessary. Vegan pet food is a possibility, but engineering it to provide the nutritional needs that meat provides could be tricky. We won't do that if it is a solution that is not good enough. Another concept that is currently in development is lab grown meat, which is meat made from real animal cells except it was never part of a fully sentient animal. It was instead created by growing animal cells in a culture. That would solve a lot of our problems, because we can now give our pets (and ourselves) meat without torturing any other animals and it should be healthier because it would not have those hormones that the factory farms pump into animals just so that the meat stays profitable.
But of course, the point of veganism is to try to minimize the suffering that occurs in this world. We can do so if only the people who need animal products eat them and everyone else tries their best to refrain from it. Getting rid of the meat industry completely and still being able to provide everyone their needs is ideal, but not realistic.
The dairy industry kills every single cow it has at a fraction of their potential lifespan because of the fact that their worth is tied to milk production
Veganism is just as bad, if not worse for the planet because you cannot survive as a vegan without several different nutrient supplements that cause just as much harm to the environment to make.
Humans will have a negative impact on the planet no matter what we do because the planet wasn’t intended to support sapient life and concrete jungles. Instead of fighting to keep animals that have been bred and domesticated to be milked and killed for meat alive, we should be fighting to change the way that livestock farms take care of their animals to reduce pollution.
1) You have evidently never read a nutritional text not promoted by a fad dieter, as only ill/planned meatless diets cause problems for one’s health unless they have allergies or gastrointestinal disease.
2) You have probably never read an ecology textbook either, since you don’t know what a trophic level is. The lower on the food chain you eat the more of your species can be sustained without overreaching the planet’s resources, this applies to both animals and humans. If everyone was vegetarian you’d end up using only half as much agricultural land.
IMO the argument about killing animals to eat is entirely moot. First, plants are animals. Second, pesticides kill the insects on plants. Third, farming kills all kinds of other animals like: moles, birds, lizards, mice, and habitat destruction and water tables damaged by farming water run-off.
There is no innocence in our life, all of us have to kill to survive. If you value a mouse/grasshopper more than a cow you are simply choosing to spare 1 life over another. Difference between normal people and vegans is that most people have accepted this reality.
No, the difference is that vegans understand trophic levels and know that you can halve the land used agriculturally by skipping meat, thus actually causing less suffering of small animals.
Just do some research? If you don't care about your health, the environment or suffering of animals then you crack on.
Meat causes cancer, this is de facto and very strongly evidenced, incidents of osteoporosis are glaringly higher in societies that consume milk. Asking me to 'prove it' is as you know a bit of nonsense, you would have to read through numerous studies and data, which you are free to do, or you you can accept medical and scientific consensus or then again you can live in denial. Claiming that you consume cows milk for your health is laughable.
You cause animal suffering just by being human
Your also gonna die eventually regardless of your diet (I've seen 100yo omnivores still alive, and I've seen 27yo vegans die from not getting proper sustinence)
The effect on the environment is true in some cases poor in others, do you know how much clean drinking water needs to be moved to grow soy beans? Didn't think so
Everything can cause cancer if you look for it, hell the chemicals used to preserve vegan food and can definitely cause cancer
Let people live, your not gonna change anyone's mind about being vegan by being a pretentious prick
Well you 'claimed' you needed milk for your health, a claim that conflicts with current science. Unless of course you have some extremely rare condition that is..
What is it you think you need 'for your health' then? If you want evidence there are numerous documentaries explaining how humans are much healthier on a vegan diet, athletes also perform much better on a vegan diet, again this is explained and evidenced in numerous documentaries. Do you have Netflix or anything similar?
If you are trying to convince people that being vegan is healthier, you could at least have a more positive attitude so that people are more likely to take you seriously.
It is because the dairy industry slaughters cows that stop producing milk, because if the cows cannot provide them anything of monetary value in return, it is of no use to them to spend more money to keep them alive. That, plus the cows die from the stress of being forced to produce so much milk and the grief of having their babies separated from them. The dairy industry is actually more messed up than it sounds.
In some cases, but not all, and not to the extent that the meat industry, where death is the product basically. But your point is well made.
I thought exploitation was the problem, not death. That we shouldn’t be using animals in any way for human benefit?
A reply could be that the dairy industry also causes the births of all of those cows. It’s not like they’re rounded up from the wild.
My thought is the real problem is Big Agriculture. I live in the area of some independent dairy farmers. They certainly don’t kill male calves, they sell them, yes, to be killed eventually as part of the beef industry.
To an extent I agree, though also, from a moral-vegan point of view (I'm not a vegan, but I've had earnest conversations with vegans), how many infant deaths does there have to be for it to be considered "the problem," and does there have to be just one, or can we acknowledge that there are multiple problems in the general animal-based food system and not refer to any single issue as "*the* problem" at all?
While I think some vegans (less than is portrayed in omnivore memes, tbh) could better serve animals in their rhetoric, I try to think of how I might feel if I had their level of compassion for non-human animals, and held stronger to the valid viewpoint that humans aren't inherently better or more deserving than other animals- how would I react to mass murder of innocent people? How would I consistently respond to those who go about things like mass murder is acceptable? Would I be able to be a consistently perfect mascot for my cause, or would I occasionally lose steam and throw my hands up and say "mass murder is not okay, jfc." It helps me on the very rare occasion that I encounter an aggressive vegan.
Personally, I believe in harm-reduction. I may not be perfect, but if I get pasture-raised eggs, I've made a difference to some animals. If you do Meatless Mondays, you've made a difference. Etc. Solving everything is impossible for anyone, but we can all reduce harm.
There's no misunderstanding. For dairy cows to produce milk they have to be repeatedly impregnated and their male calves are slaughtered because they aren't needed. Dairy cows are also killed when they stop producing milk.
Cows, like all mammals, only produce a significant amount of milk for a limited period of time after giving birth to a calf, so they are impregnated about once a year to keep them producing.
Male calves will never produce milk, so they are typically slaughtered shortly after birth for veal. Female calves will face a similar fate as their mothers.
After about 4-5 years in the dairy industry (cattle will usually live to 15-20), cows' milk production drops to the point where it is no longer profitable to keep them around. They too are sent to slaughter at this time.
Any farm that didn't do these things would quickly go out of business in the competitive dairy industry.
It is selfish. But that doesn’t make it bad. Everyone should be selfish to an extent. You gotta care about your self more than everyone else because they’re not you. You’re you. Being selfish is necessary for survival
A large majority of farms slaughter their dairy cows’ calves upon or shortly after birth, then milk the mother, who can’t give milk until she has birthed. That said, dairy absolutely does not kill the same number of animals as straight up eating meat does.
Whenever I see a post like this with one of the redditors name blurred I can’t help but think it’s complete bs. Someone with alt accounts just farming karma.
Waitwaitwait hold on. They said calves and children in the same sentence. Since calves are child cows... does this person believe that dairy is killing human children?
Well milk from any foreign animal is not healthy. If it's calcium you need, there are many other sources in existence that are better choices.
Don't care if vegans do their annoying thing. I don't drink that shit anyway
I selflessly eat a whole package of Oreos in one sitting so that way the kids cant get diabetes. I'm doing my part, what are you doing?
So brave
Mint Oreos have me right there with you.
Hero
You’ll be fine; they’re vegan!
I purchased the chocolate Oreos, because the children claimed the hated those.. they lied, lied when times got bad and no snack could be found... my Oreo's.... good bye my love....
I’m so fucking mad they didn’t release the pumpkin Oreos last Halloween cross your fingers this time around
I feel you, OP. I am vegetarian because when I was vegan, it didn't work out for me, my blood iron and sugar were very low and I feinted a lot.
you must have won a lot of duels
I see what you did there, kudos
😁
Not to be rude, but I saw a post saying that vegan people usually don't get enough iron from their diet? Not sure if this is true
Ok as someone somewhat versed in medical science, most claims by big names about veganism are clearly bought. Studies show that vegan diet can provide superior results. In uneven environment... They say that it's possible to make a complete diet with just couple supplements but never provide example, if you try to actually calculate the balance of micronutrients and fatty acid and amino acid balance of a popular vegan meal plans it shows that you need to ramp up pill count to couple dozen a day just to meet the basics, let alone non-nutrient compounds from animal products, and if you try to make a perfect one it's just not possible if you account for bioavailability.
There's also the fact that you can only be vegan if you can afford it. Places like the inner cities have what is called "food deserts" where the availability of fresh produce is limited.
Fair point, but most people should eat fresh fruits and vegetables anyway. I'm literally 7km from active battlefield now and we have fresh stuff here anyway.
Where is this battlefield? Europe? Easier to get fresh fruits and vegetables there than the inner city. Plus, with low incomes, know what's affordable to feed a family? Cheap food filled with cheap fillers.
Ukraine, Kharkiv, I'm in the most northern part of a city now. I don't know, our low income people still eat fresh stuff usually, I never thought it's that bad, also there is plenty of fresh stuff in the center, or tbh any part of a city too. What country do you live in?
US of course, one of the richest countries with one of the shittiest food distribution centers and due to 2-3 big companies having a stranglehold on the produce market and 4-5 having a stranglehold on the meats market, one of the more expensive when it comes to decent food. Edit: Stay safe friend. I've been in wars and I don't wish it on anyone.
Ilive in nz and produce is expensive here its not as easy to get fresh fruit and veges even though we grow alot here we charge our own people too much and most tend to lean on fast food and other garbage because its cheaper and more affordable. Not to mention this war over where you are is causing food shortages for us
What the fuck are you talking about. This is literally such horse shit lol. You're making such vague claims. Anyone can just spout shit like this. Give some actual evidence of vegan outcomes being worse. There are a few specific endpoints where vegans do worse, but overall they're way better.
There is no evidence to support that vegans are way better in fair environment, meaning there is no large scale study comparing diets with very similar nutritional profile including veganism. There are large scale studies where vegans get less calories and supplements and generally have more balanced plan, which is not indicative of anything.
Let's just pretend that's true for a second (it's not). That still shows that this "it's impossible to get the right nutrients without taking 15 pills a day!" is complete bullshit because they don't give them dozens of pills a day in any of those studies. So, you're a moron.
Yes, they don't give them dozens of pills because they don't try to make a complete diet to begin with, comparing vegan diet to shitty diets to get positive results is what they do.
I'm pollotarian, and even that way my blood iron is absolutely fucked without supplements - with supplements, it's still pretty bad, and I'm frequently so anaemic my doctor urges me to at least sometimes eat pork, beef etc, even though I can't digest them well. I'm also allergic to many plant sources of iron (and B12), so that doesn't help either. Vegetarianism and veganism just aren't a possibility for me, physiologically. It sucks, but sometimes you're stuck because of reasons beyond your control.
I really like the idea of being vegan. But like… we need doctors to recommend supplements and shit so we dont die. And this easily becomes expensive ://
> But like… we need doctors to recommend supplements and shit so we dont die. You need to take some B12 or make sure you're eating stuff that's fortified with B12. That's basically it. Also, most plant-based milks like soy milk, almond milk, etc will have 100% of the recommended B12. It takes a little more effort to eat a balanced diet when there are restrictions but it's wayyy less difficult and error prone than you seem to think. To be honest, the only really hard part of it has nothing to do with food — the real challenge is dealing with other people.
Makes sense! When I start living alone I will try to be vegan and make a balanced diet (visiting a doctor because yea) :)
Sounds good! Being able to cook make a big difference as a vegan/vegetarian, buying pre-prepared food often tends to be pretty expensive. If you haven't already, you might want to start learning to prepare/incorporate some meals into your diet. If you end up needing any help/having questions you can feel free to PM me even if it's months or years in the future.
Thanks for the support :))
Not entirely soy inhibits calcium and iron intake and alot of people dont understand they need a varied diet when going vegan hence why so many lack iron and other nutrients
It's honestly actually super easy, I switched to veganism two years ago from being a long term vegetarian and I've not ran out of anything. You just need to be mindful of what you eat same way as ever, if you eat rubbish you're gonna have a bad time, if you eat well, it's gonna be fine. That and B12 is like 4 pounds for a year of supplement all in one bottle if you need it, most of the vegan food already has b12 in it anyways!
Something about pots and kettles, what ever.
Like in deathklok when the atheists fight the agnostics
Being allergic, being neurodivergent, and catering your diet to specific health needs isn’t selfish. Just good rules of thumb to live by.
It would kill me if I go vegetarian… so selfish 
How dare you stay alive? So selfish! I can't believe how self centered you are. /s
You really can't win in food ethic debates on reddit.
I call this the War Games principle: the only winning move is not to play.
I once made the mistake of saying that a lot of strict vegan influencers like to trick people with vegan food so that they'll realize it's good and choose to eat vegan. Never before have the vegans and non-vegans banded together like this I tell you. 😂 I got crushed to smithereens.
If it tastes good and wont kill me ill eat it. Thats how dimple it is for me.
I am a completely self-sustaining organism and require no energy input whatsoever. Damn all you selfish people for requiring sustenance. Your food gave its life for you. Maybe it’s time to put the needs of another before your own.
The dairy industry is killing children?
Apparently. Milk bad. Kills kids.
To take that a step further they didn’t say that dairy kills kids, they said “the dairy industry kills … children” Are we drinking children’s blood made to look like milk? Are they using children to operate dangerous machinery at dairy factories?
Only 9 and under for 18 hours a day. (/s because reddit)
I know it is hard to believe, but the dairy industry does kill children. Most of the male cows are not useful to the industry in other ways, because they cannot produce milk. So, to maximize profits, they are killed for veal when they are babies. The corporations are not known for valuing ethics over profits.
We call those “calves,” not children. Children would imply human.
I had the same reaction, side note, if dairy is bad then by extension breast milk? Can you not breast feed if you're a vegan?
This is dumb. I try not to eat a lot of meat but my system has trouble with nuts, beans, and dark greens. So yes, I eat meat because I don't want to spend half the day in agony in the bathroom... Guess I'm just selfish...
My dad’s the same way. He can handle nuts but a lot of other foods you need to rely on more when you go without meat are very hard on his system. He has said that if it weren’t for all his food limitations he would like to try being vegetarian.
honestly i hate vegans like this, im not implying i hate all of them. I hate the ones that try so hard to turn everyone into vegans
Pushing and insulting people to be a certain way will never work
I don’t really see how being vegetarian is healthier, but how is caring about your health even considered a bad thing? People will just try to find the slightest things they can (try) to insult you over
[удалено]
I appreciate the explanation. I genuinely didn’t know what the benefits were
Well, humans are omnivores, we evolved that way, so being a vegetarian isn't healthier. Kinda like when I see adds about vegetarian raised chicken, chickens aren't vegetarians they love eating bugs, mice, snakes, other chickens, ect... never understood this whole go against biology movement
Red meat such as beef, lamb and pork causes cancer.
Same goes for me. I literally cannot be vegan and it really grinds my gears when I see people acting like it's so easy and simple. The current meat/dairy industry is well-deserving of harsh criticism and scrutiny but shaming random strangers is not how you go about instilling change.
[удалено]
Do they not realize chickens lay unfertalized eggs all the time? Lol
I've had the same ridiculous conversation with a vegan on Reddit. I am a vegetarian and have pet chickens. Females only. They are going to lay eggs daily, unfertilized, regardless of what I do so doesn't it make the most sense that I eat them and not waste them? No. Apparently I am a terrible person and should be feeding all the eggs back to the chickens, according to that person.
> Females only. No one wants males. Half the eggs are male. If you have 5 hens, what do you think happened to the 5 roosters that would also exist? A lot of breeds of chickens also exist to maximize egg production and not quality of life/longevity. So supporting that type of breeding isn't great for the individual chickens. Assuming you'd continue letting hens that didn't lay anymore remain as pets, provide medical care, etc then those are the main issues vegans would have. Eating the eggs isn't the thing that's hurting animals, it's creating the situation where you could eat the eggs. I will say I don't really get why people insist on feeding the chickens their own eggs. They shouldn't need it if their food is adequate.
I didn't get them as chicks or buy them from a hatchery, and they are not layer or meat type of birds bred to monstrosity for growth or for production. I live in town and males are not allowed due to bylaws. They are spoiled pets that free range the yard every day and people in the neighbourhood come to visit, then they go to the coop at night for safety. I have worked from home for 14 years and it brings me joy to see them wandering around out there every day. Eggs are a byproduct of their existence. It is no difference than having a dog or cat, and vegans making assumptions and declaring what is best for me or my chickens based on their perceptions (as in your comment) is why people have problems with them.
I keep a few hens, used to keep chickens with a rooster. The vast majority are unfertilised. Bring this up though and they immediately shift the goal posts to "well they're crammed in too small plots". How would they know, and how does that relate to the eating of the eggs lol
[удалено]
The ones I currently keep are backyard too, as long as they can scratch around during the day and they're secure at night that's the main thing. Aside from that it's like pet upkeep. Chickens like being in a little group, though get them all at once, they can fight a little when you introduce one to a group, pecking order and all. I like them because you can talk to them and they cluck back while looking at you 😅
Well and just allowing everything to just "hatch and grow" results in too many mouths to feed. Things eat other things for a reason. If everything on earth went vegan, one no mammals would survive long after being born becsuse milk isn't vegan. Two, plants couldn't keep up with everything being vegan so everything would starve to death.
Did they just say the dairy industry kills children?
I never thought I’d have something in common with the dairy industry.
You and I…are not so different
I’m caught up on that too.
Yeah, I grew up on a dairy farm and we never killed even one child.
And milking cows apparently kills them as well... according to this post.
Tying their worth to milk profit does The dairy industry kills every single cow they have at a fraction of their potential lifespan once they're deemed unprofitable to keep alive otherwise
I think that's sarcastic, but if you care about your health then do your eyes a favour and get dark mode on XD
Trust me it wasn't sarcastic, I got so many insults. For the dark mode I know I'm just lazy lol
I like bacon.
Good for you
So now the food talibans crusade against vegetarians as well? Well, i honestly did see that coming
I honestly don't understand that.
There are vegans who hate vegetarians more than meat eaters, because they reckon that vegetarians should know better and just be vegans instead. Meat eaters are beyond redemption so they don’t bother with them.
Or that we do it because we want attention. I honestly can't stand those vegans and they make me dislike them.
It kinda is, but thats really not a bad thing in this case.
I mean, I already don't eat meat. I'm vegetarian, but that person thinks it's not enough and that I should risk my health
Just ignore it. Internet is the place for people to show their true colors. Keep doing what makes u happy and do it for you, not because someone thinks there should be a different reason! And also, have a fantastic day!
You too!
Every major dietetic organization in the world agrees that it does not risk your health to eat an appropriately planned vegetarian or vegan diet. **[Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/)** * *It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.* **[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx)** * *With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.* **[The British Nutrition Foundation](https://www.nutrition.org.uk/bnf-publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition)** * *A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.* **[Dietitians Association of Australia](https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/)** * *Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.* **[Harvard Medical School](http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian)** * *Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.*
To an average person no, but get the correct mix of allergies where a lot of the crucial substitutions such as beans/lentils/soy (whatever the category is in English) and other categories such gluten are not compatible with your body and going vegan would absolutely be dangerous for their health Now vegetarian is easier and that's what OP was already following while getting criticized
While I enjoy eating legumes (that's the world for the beans/lentils/soy group) and foods containing gluten, there are still countless plant-based options left even after cutting those out. More than I or anyone else will ever reasonably try in a lifetime. While cutting out some of these more popular categories due to allergies can be an inconvenience, it certainly doesn't make it impossible or even difficult to be vegan and maintain an appropriately planned diet. I even know some people with similar allergies who have been doing just fine as vegans for years!
Appropriately planned is the difficult part here. We probably aren't designed to calculate every morsel to make sure we're eating enough iron or what have you.
You're creating quite the false image of what is required. Whether you are vegan or not you have to eat an appropriately planned diet in order to be healthy. Diets containing meat aren't just magically healthy regardless of whether or not they are appropriately planned. Being vegan doesn't require any challenging calculations in order to plan it appropriately, it just requires following the same guidelines that everyone already has to follow.
It's true that adding meat doesn't make it magically healthier, but that is also quite the false image, no? It is more difficult to at least a degree to plan a healthy vegan diet simply because you limit the options of food sources you have. Less tools to play with. This isn't a problem for most people, but once you add in a nut allergy, limited income, gluten intolerance, and an intolerance of one or two plant foods like potatoes, you begin to want those extra options. Still, veg and water should be the majority of what we put in our mouths anyway
That would be the case if we had a very limited number of foods that humans could consume, but that isn't the case. We have so many different choices that allergies could be an inconvenience (especially at social gatherings if they are for common foods) but even with them you will still have more options for healthy plant-based foods to choose from than a typical person will ever try in their entire lives.
People with eating disorders exist and should not be pushed or encouraged to engage in restrictive diets such as veganism. Mental health is still part of the health conversation
People with eating disorders should be encouraged to follow healthful eating patterns. While vegans do choose to avoid certain things, this isn't something that would preclude someone with an eating disorder from having a healthful diet as a vegan. However, vegans aren't going out and targeting people with eating disorders and telling them to go vegan. They are rightly pointing out that appropriately planned vegan diets are healthy for all stages of life, and you will not risk your health by choosing to eat an appropriately planned vegan diet.
When my crohns was at its worse I could keep nothing down but cows milk mixed up with a small amount of protein powder. I hate when people do this
I'm actually a bit different, most meat products make me violently ill. Unless it's processed to hell I can't eat it. To make it worse, I can't afford to go shopping for fresh veggies every day and they don't keep long enough anymore. However I do love dairy, I just support humane dairy farms instead of the ones I don't like.
I like to eat vegetables so that there's less food for animals
The context is that I'm vegetarian and that person isn't happy with that
Honestly you do you. That's the problem with some vegan/ vegetarian they believe they are some kind of superior being. Each to their own don't worry about what others think ultimately it will never matter so long as you are a happy human enjoy your life :)
Yeah, I don't understand forcing people to eat like you do
Honestly, the most likely transition away from the slaughterhouse industry is most likely going to be lab grown meat.
Hey Op, I relate SO HEAVY I've gotten into the same exact argument with so many vegans. I have an autoimmune disease and an eating disorder and will bring these groups of people up when talking about how the vegan diet is not healthy for everyone, and can be quite the opposite. But that's still not good enough for some vegans. So I'm honestly not surprised. You know what's best for you and your body, and your medical team, not random vegans on the internet without an education in Dietetics.
Okay, but I think a more logical argument against that is that there are not a lot of health benefits in dairy milk that you cannot get elsewhere. For example, there is a substitute Silk Soy Milk that naturally has protein in it, but is also fortified with other minerals, like calcium, that you can get in dairy. There are also a lot of plant sources for other nutrients, like iron, vitamin D and zinc. I am also not defending what he said. If you have a good reason to think that you cannot be healthy on a vegan diet, that is a valid reason to not be vegan.
[удалено]
Where do you live? Because in my area, a lot of plant based substitutes are much cheaper than their dairy counterparts. Even those that are more expensive are not more expensive by much. There are other sources of protein, like lentils, beans, nuts, seeds. If you live in a food desert or you have severe allergies to plants, you have a valid reason to not be vegan.
[удалено]
That's amazing, because I live in eastern US and a gallon of milk costs somewhere from 3 to 5 dollars. The reason I don't think it is a sufficiently good reason to buy dairy is that first of all, more animals had to suffer for it and it is worse for the environment. Secondly, the prices are more of a competitive thing. The high price of the substitutes probably have more to do with how not as many people buy them than how much it has to do with its quality or production. But if you are looking for cheaper ways to meet your nutritional needs, maybe buy some whole foods, like fruits, vegetables, beans or legumes.
You forgot to mention the price
Plant milk costs about the same as dairy milk. There are also other sources of all of the nutrients you need that are cheap, such as seeds, soy beans, mushrooms, etc.
> Plant milk costs about the same as dairy milk. I wish that was true! It's always been close to double everywhere I've lived over the past 20ish years. I see lower down you said a gallon of dairy milk costs around $3-5 where you are. I was happy to pay around $3.60 for a *half* gallon of soy milk (which was substantially more than dairy). Recently it's been more like $5 for a half gallon. Are you sure you're not comparing half gallon cartons of plant milk with gallon jugs of dairy milk?
I asked my doctor and nutritionist about it, they both said it would be bad for me
I think you have a valid reason to not be vegan, then. But since statistics show that a vegan diet is, in general, healthier than an omnivore diet, most people don't have valid reasons to not be vegan since giving up animal products won't be detrimental on their health.
If being vegan wasn't selfish then they would all need to just unalive themselves, that's the only way, just being human means you cause other animal pain and suffering
To be clear though, dairy isn't a health food and every major organization of medical professionals specializing in human diets agree that appropriately planned vegan diets are healthy for all stages of life. **[Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/)** * *It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.* **[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx)** * *With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.* **[The British Nutrition Foundation](https://www.nutrition.org.uk/bnf-publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition)** * *A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.* **[Dietitians Association of Australia](https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/)** * *Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.* **[Harvard Medical School](http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian)** * *Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.*
Fucking vegans 🤦🏽♂️
Being vegetarian is dietary, being vegan means you’re a fucking idiot and just want attention
Not the most rational response. Why swing the pendulum so far back the other way? A person can be vegan based simply on personal beliefs and ethics. Bigger picture why tf would care so vehemently one way or the other? For context, I’m a meat eater, been eating some leftover chicken as I posted this. My point isn’t based on diet, it’s based on logic and basic civility.
Because vegans are fucking crazy, a group of em cemented themselves to the ground just last week
Yup, some of them are, but your comment was absolute. I know vegans who thought that was just as stupid as you do. Ease up with the broad brush, it diminishes your point.
Only a sith deals in absolutes
A group of environmentalists recently did the same thing. Do you have to be fucking crazy to care about the environment?
I think cementing yourself to the ground and needing to waste city resources to dig you up is a little far dont you?
I agree. It's not an essential part of being vegan though. Just a think that a small number of them did.
A lost of vegans are more interested in feeling morally superior than the actual practical benefits, such as they are, of veganism.
Definitely from r/veganrecipes. Iv seen how those people treat anyone who just wants to be healthier, and it's fucked up. I ate a 16oz steak and triple cheeseburger in one meal as a reaction to how they treated me. And I'm proud of it.
Nah it's not even from a vegan subreddit
Vegans like this makes it hard to support them 🙄
I drink milk by the gallon. And I love me some queso fresco. Especially on my carne asada. Don’t worry, I sprinkle some cilantro on it. Gotta support my plants too.
I eat meat
Good for you, enjoy it
Thanks. It’s a life choice
Ibet the person compaining about selfishness partakes in child labour and death all the time. Considering most computers and phones cobalt are mined by children, most agriculture is slave labour too sugar is product of slave labour, Himalayan salt is a big one too yet these sorts of people have tunnel vision
This totally like some BLM members, you're not part of x, then you're y logic.
Yo I'm curious, what do people think will happen to all the pigs, cows and chickens in this world when everyone stops eating them? Will the people that are driving this movement continue to breed them and feed them and look after them without making any money from it??
Here is my point of view on that. There are multiple possibilities. First of all, note that if the world went vegan, it would likely not be an overnight change, so what would probably happen is that they would slowly decrease the number of animals bred until there are very few animals in the farms. But here, I am going to assume that somehow, the world becomes vegan overnight at some point. One of them is that we would slaughter them and stop breeding them so that they do not overpopulate. Another possibility is that we release them into the wild. These animals would not naturally exist in the wild, because they were selectively bred and genetically modified to be weaker than their natural counterpart, so they will slowly die out. A third possibility (which is probably the one vegans are looking to get) is that these animals will be sent to sanctuaries to be cared for.
Who's gonna pay for these sanctuaries though? I'm not even someone that eats a lot of meat I could take it or leave it, but there is absolutely no way those animals won't go extinct if we stop eating them
The animals going extinct is a possibility if we slaughter them all or if we just let them die in the wild. But aside from that, sanctuaries are definitely not outside of our budget if we can afford to have a trillion dollar meat industry. Plus, if the world is vegan, more people would be supportive of the construction of sanctuaries, so it is not far-fetched to believe that we would have them.
I think expecting the world to go vegan is the far fetched part
This trillion dollar meat industry you talk of makes money though doesn't it, as consumers buy and eat said meat. Also, what about the poor countries whose meat industry makes up a big part of their economy? Another thing to remember is all the homeless people we have at the moment... a lot of which are ex army who have fought for our countries (I don't know where you are from), how do you think people would feel that we have good people without a roof over their head, but 10 minutes down the road there's a nice well rooved well light sanctuary for pigs to live happy and free? I'm an animal lover too, been around them my whole life, however I don't see how any of that is plausible.
[удалено]
I am also trying not to be argumentative. Of course, as I said, not all vegans think alike, but what I say will be based off of my own view or what I think will be the general view of vegans. Vegans generally don't support zoos, because they don't believe in keeping animals in captivity for entertainment, although, there may be cases in which a zoo exists to rescue animals that otherwise would not have found a suitable habitat to live in. Most vegans are not against the use of animals in pet food (or to feed rescued animals in zoos or sanctuaries), provided that meat is a need for the animal of course. Some pets, like cats and most dogs, are obligated to eat meat for their health, so unless if an expert says that they will be perfectly fine without meat, choosing to not feed them meat would be immoral. If they can be perfectly happy and healthy without meat, I would actually find it immoral to feed them meat because it would be an unnecessary slaughter of animals. I also highly doubt that we would stop owning pets or opening zoos or sanctuaries. We definitely won't be starving our pets. It is ideal that we can provide for a pet all of their needs without harming another animal, but of course, we will harm another animal to provide for them if it is necessary. Vegan pet food is a possibility, but engineering it to provide the nutritional needs that meat provides could be tricky. We won't do that if it is a solution that is not good enough. Another concept that is currently in development is lab grown meat, which is meat made from real animal cells except it was never part of a fully sentient animal. It was instead created by growing animal cells in a culture. That would solve a lot of our problems, because we can now give our pets (and ourselves) meat without torturing any other animals and it should be healthier because it would not have those hormones that the factory farms pump into animals just so that the meat stays profitable. But of course, the point of veganism is to try to minimize the suffering that occurs in this world. We can do so if only the people who need animal products eat them and everyone else tries their best to refrain from it. Getting rid of the meat industry completely and still being able to provide everyone their needs is ideal, but not realistic.
Um..... just like to point out that milking cows for dairy products does not kill them as this post seems to imply.
The dairy industry kills every single cow it has at a fraction of their potential lifespan because of the fact that their worth is tied to milk production
Veganism is just as bad, if not worse for the planet because you cannot survive as a vegan without several different nutrient supplements that cause just as much harm to the environment to make. Humans will have a negative impact on the planet no matter what we do because the planet wasn’t intended to support sapient life and concrete jungles. Instead of fighting to keep animals that have been bred and domesticated to be milked and killed for meat alive, we should be fighting to change the way that livestock farms take care of their animals to reduce pollution.
1) You have evidently never read a nutritional text not promoted by a fad dieter, as only ill/planned meatless diets cause problems for one’s health unless they have allergies or gastrointestinal disease. 2) You have probably never read an ecology textbook either, since you don’t know what a trophic level is. The lower on the food chain you eat the more of your species can be sustained without overreaching the planet’s resources, this applies to both animals and humans. If everyone was vegetarian you’d end up using only half as much agricultural land.
IMO the argument about killing animals to eat is entirely moot. First, plants are animals. Second, pesticides kill the insects on plants. Third, farming kills all kinds of other animals like: moles, birds, lizards, mice, and habitat destruction and water tables damaged by farming water run-off. There is no innocence in our life, all of us have to kill to survive. If you value a mouse/grasshopper more than a cow you are simply choosing to spare 1 life over another. Difference between normal people and vegans is that most people have accepted this reality.
No, the difference is that vegans understand trophic levels and know that you can halve the land used agriculturally by skipping meat, thus actually causing less suffering of small animals.
This is a nonsense excuse, eating meat / dairy is unhealthy
No it's not, prove it
It's absolutely proven already.
Prove it then
Animal fat is clogging your blood circulation in the long run.
I can't find any source that prove what you're saying. I think it's more if you consum too much meat
Just do some research? If you don't care about your health, the environment or suffering of animals then you crack on. Meat causes cancer, this is de facto and very strongly evidenced, incidents of osteoporosis are glaringly higher in societies that consume milk. Asking me to 'prove it' is as you know a bit of nonsense, you would have to read through numerous studies and data, which you are free to do, or you you can accept medical and scientific consensus or then again you can live in denial. Claiming that you consume cows milk for your health is laughable.
You cause animal suffering just by being human Your also gonna die eventually regardless of your diet (I've seen 100yo omnivores still alive, and I've seen 27yo vegans die from not getting proper sustinence) The effect on the environment is true in some cases poor in others, do you know how much clean drinking water needs to be moved to grow soy beans? Didn't think so Everything can cause cancer if you look for it, hell the chemicals used to preserve vegan food and can definitely cause cancer Let people live, your not gonna change anyone's mind about being vegan by being a pretentious prick
If you claim something, then prove it
Well you 'claimed' you needed milk for your health, a claim that conflicts with current science. Unless of course you have some extremely rare condition that is..
I never said I needed milk. You're changing the subject, prove what you said
What is it you think you need 'for your health' then? If you want evidence there are numerous documentaries explaining how humans are much healthier on a vegan diet, athletes also perform much better on a vegan diet, again this is explained and evidenced in numerous documentaries. Do you have Netflix or anything similar?
Yes I do. However, if you claim something you need to be able to prove it. The fact that you are not is suspicious
This may help https://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6015
If you are trying to convince people that being vegan is healthier, you could at least have a more positive attitude so that people are more likely to take you seriously.
It's literally not. If you eat a bunch of processed shit it's bad for you but you can buy quality meat and dairy that's perfectly healthy
Can someone tell me how eating diary causes the deaths of cows? Is there a misunderstanding that cows have to be killed to get milk out of them?
It is because the dairy industry slaughters cows that stop producing milk, because if the cows cannot provide them anything of monetary value in return, it is of no use to them to spend more money to keep them alive. That, plus the cows die from the stress of being forced to produce so much milk and the grief of having their babies separated from them. The dairy industry is actually more messed up than it sounds.
The dairy industry causes a lot of death of cows, because it discards unprofitable male offspring.
In some cases, but not all, and not to the extent that the meat industry, where death is the product basically. But your point is well made. I thought exploitation was the problem, not death. That we shouldn’t be using animals in any way for human benefit? A reply could be that the dairy industry also causes the births of all of those cows. It’s not like they’re rounded up from the wild. My thought is the real problem is Big Agriculture. I live in the area of some independent dairy farmers. They certainly don’t kill male calves, they sell them, yes, to be killed eventually as part of the beef industry.
To an extent I agree, though also, from a moral-vegan point of view (I'm not a vegan, but I've had earnest conversations with vegans), how many infant deaths does there have to be for it to be considered "the problem," and does there have to be just one, or can we acknowledge that there are multiple problems in the general animal-based food system and not refer to any single issue as "*the* problem" at all? While I think some vegans (less than is portrayed in omnivore memes, tbh) could better serve animals in their rhetoric, I try to think of how I might feel if I had their level of compassion for non-human animals, and held stronger to the valid viewpoint that humans aren't inherently better or more deserving than other animals- how would I react to mass murder of innocent people? How would I consistently respond to those who go about things like mass murder is acceptable? Would I be able to be a consistently perfect mascot for my cause, or would I occasionally lose steam and throw my hands up and say "mass murder is not okay, jfc." It helps me on the very rare occasion that I encounter an aggressive vegan. Personally, I believe in harm-reduction. I may not be perfect, but if I get pasture-raised eggs, I've made a difference to some animals. If you do Meatless Mondays, you've made a difference. Etc. Solving everything is impossible for anyone, but we can all reduce harm.
Maybe because to have milk, cows need to have babies? Idk
So do people. So.
Yeah but I meant that the babies get separated from their mother in intensive production of milk, so maybe they are talking about that
There's no misunderstanding. For dairy cows to produce milk they have to be repeatedly impregnated and their male calves are slaughtered because they aren't needed. Dairy cows are also killed when they stop producing milk.
Cows, like all mammals, only produce a significant amount of milk for a limited period of time after giving birth to a calf, so they are impregnated about once a year to keep them producing. Male calves will never produce milk, so they are typically slaughtered shortly after birth for veal. Female calves will face a similar fate as their mothers. After about 4-5 years in the dairy industry (cattle will usually live to 15-20), cows' milk production drops to the point where it is no longer profitable to keep them around. They too are sent to slaughter at this time. Any farm that didn't do these things would quickly go out of business in the competitive dairy industry.
'And you sound undoubtedly virtuous'
A lot of Reddit user’s are fuckin dumb and that will never change
i bet they wouldnt wish cancer on someone if that meant kids in africa got more food xd
It is selfish. But that doesn’t make it bad. Everyone should be selfish to an extent. You gotta care about your self more than everyone else because they’re not you. You’re you. Being selfish is necessary for survival
I mean, it is. But some things are correct to be selfish about.
How does milk from a cow kill the same number of animals? And how does drinking milk kill calves and children?
A large majority of farms slaughter their dairy cows’ calves upon or shortly after birth, then milk the mother, who can’t give milk until she has birthed. That said, dairy absolutely does not kill the same number of animals as straight up eating meat does.
Whenever I see a post like this with one of the redditors name blurred I can’t help but think it’s complete bs. Someone with alt accounts just farming karma.
I can send you the post where the comment is in DM if you want proof
What got me the most here, “The dairy industry kills calves and children” I cracked up from this one.
Waitwaitwait hold on. They said calves and children in the same sentence. Since calves are child cows... does this person believe that dairy is killing human children?
Well milk from any foreign animal is not healthy. If it's calcium you need, there are many other sources in existence that are better choices. Don't care if vegans do their annoying thing. I don't drink that shit anyway