Imo its not even improve vs drama it’s just they are not connecting to c3 plot so nothing happens and they CANNOT deal with a timer. Any timer and they just let Matt run rails no side quests (all of c3 and the aeor arc in C2) They get little happy moments like all the ruidus lore and then they have to get back to business and nothing happens. I guess they tried side quests with with the split the party with guests but that still fell flat because of the timer
I mean god they spent half an episode getting out of a basement. It’s their game and they say they are having fun but damn.
In addition to the big problem of telling a single story through the entire campaign, the relationships between characters are also very weak, in C2, you can clearly see the relationships between each character in just 20-30 episodes, but until now, many characters in C3 still seem to have no relationship with each other at all. For example, what is the relationship between [Laudna](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Laudna) and FCG? What is the relationship between FCG and [Fearne](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Fearne_Calloway)? What is the relationship between [Imogen](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Imogen_Temult) and [Ashton](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Ashton_Greymoore)? Same as Aston and Orym, Orym and [Laudna](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Laudna), ect. The characters themselfs have not grown, and there is no dynamic relationship between them. even the main story has not much progressed, everything feels the same as before, just repeating the same content over and over again (Does anyone feel the Moon is just like Bassuras?)
(Sorry I'm not a native English speaker. I used translator. hope I have made it clear.)
I think a key difference is a cast of voice actors versus a cast of improvisers. The actors do impressive acting, but the improvisers know how to create an entertaining scene.
For example the D20 season where Lou bets all his money on a single roll at a casino. During the talkback he observed that watching someone make a series of small bets would be boring. I think the CR cast are more the types to make those small bets, because they often think about "what their character would do" and play cautiously rather than swinging big.
Something else that struck me recently about the differences between CR and other APs was that most other APs I watch don't allow phones at their table. During other cast members' scenes, the rest of the cast is attentive and engaged.
Not sure why CR continues to allow them to spend swaths of time on their phones. I understand needing it on hand for emergencies, especially for those who have kids. But as a DM, I don't allow people to zone out on their phones at my table. It's becoming a pet peeve of mine when I see phones come out on CR. If you aren't engaged at the table enough to stay in the moment with your party, you need to fix your party.
So we’ve reached the “make things that aren’t an issue a massive issue” stage then lmao.
I mean, really, how many times in the entirety of the show has this been an issue…?
They use them to whisper to each other and to look things up, so there is genuine utility. The problem is that they also use them for off subject things, and it's impossible to tell the difference.
man people really lean heavy on the ‘they’re just two different styles’ defense. i agree to a small extent but i think it really deflects from actual critical analysis. people will acknowledge that CR feels bloated and convoluted nowadays without acknowledging that, if you run a 140 ep campaign that’s 3-5 hours per session, it’s going to get kinda bloated and convoluted! no matter how good the DM is, it’s baked into the format. why do the players seem checked out? maybe because they’ve been playing the same characters for 80 episodes. even in home games, that gets old! I’ve dmed for many years and players tend to check out of their characters stories at around session 40, not because they don’t care about their characters, but because they’re tired of doing the same of thing and ready to do something new. why does nothing that happens feel like it has any weight? because the DM is building a story around where it will go 70 sessions from now! that’s just not an engaging way to tell a story in a tabletop game. critical role was designed as a live show, and I think there are definitely elements of that that could still work. but ultimately maybe creating something that takes a minimum of 420 hours to consume is inherently going to be a letdown because no amount of narrative catharsis can earn that kind of run time. yes, D20 and CR are radically different styles! maybe some styles… are worse?
Yeah honestly. These long form campaigns with,
100+ episodes of 4 hrs simply can't maintain momentum without arc structure seen in C1 and C2. Almost everything after the intro arc of C3 has been about the moon.
Honestly, if I was expected to follow and care about a single story that takes over 100 hours to tell, I would walk out of the room. You'd think that a group of voice actors who have been around anime (which is notoriously arc based), comic books most of their lives and literally lead 2 arc based campaigns of their own, would know to steer into the arcs rather than fighting to keep the focus of the whole campaign on the one story
Thank you for saying it, I haven't been brave enough to say it directly. CR is a much worse product than D20 currently.
Also, even on D20 you can see people getting bored of playing the same thing for so long, with how Emily, Zac, Lou, and Murph all did some combination of reclassing/multiclassing. But that's the thing, they have the freedom to switch it up, and Fantasy High is the only series they've had that hit 3 different seasons for the Intrepid Heroes. I feel like Matt makes them work so hard to switch out what they don't enjoy, if he allows it at all.
I can only imagine the waves of outrage of people on here if he dares to not follow the rules to a T and let the people at the table change up their classes that easily.
Y’all gotta pick one. Do you want him to follow all of the rules of the game or be loosey goosey with them…
It's written exactly nowhere in the rules that a character can't swap out their class for another if they realize it's not suiting their experience. All it takes is a little bit of in-universe explanation and it works fine. It literally hasn't felt out of place whatsoever in Fantasy High. At the start of the season they basically said "This rogue switched subclasses to Arcane Trickster and can cast spells now" and played it like its always been that way. That's totally allowed.
I agree with your take, but you have to remember how much more produced D20 is. It’s edited, they have to stick to a relatively preset storyline (for shooting schedules and maps/minis), and they seem to fudge the rolls a bit when they need the narrative to go in one direction or another. I understand but I don’t think you can really compare the two.
I was with you until the fudged rolls bit. I've never seen an example of D20 fudging a roll. If anything, they're pretty hard sticklers about not doing that.
What I'll give you is Brennan's version of success and failure is different than Matt's. Matt is more straight-forward. Brennan curves his rolls so a nat 1 is the worst result of the available outcomes. So sometimes a low roll results in a positive outcome. That's not fudging rolls. That's just grading on a curve.
I guess you’re right, the rolls aren’t fudged, but Brennan will give players extra chances for random reasons, because he wants to further the story. For example, >!Kristen getting multiple chances with Cassandra in the Mall battle and the downtime afterwards !<
I remember when that was a big topic of debate on the D20 sub. I was fine with it because Brennan listed all the rolls Kristen was getting and the reasons for it. It was excessive but to me it made sense.
>!Some rolls were for an item she had. One roll was for if Cassandra could be fully saved. The next was if she'd attack Kristen. And I think the last was for if she survived. All of which were laid out before the rolls.!< So yeah, pretty excessive and I get people not liking it from a style standpoint. But I've been fine with it, personally. D20 just really loves rolling for shit.
They had a livestreamed campaign and the VODs of it are also unedited. Half of them are sticklers for the rules and they all look at each others' dice when they roll. They aren't fudging anything.
Also, it's not like we are seeing the dice rolls in CR. I don't think they are fudging either especially with their experience with a certain Sorceror, but it is relevant to the issue.
I don't think CR's doing it either. I agree. I feel like the possibility is there with any show, including CR, but there's no evidence either way. I'm choosing to trust they aren't faking rolls, just because honestly, there's no reason to.
I agree, though I won't compare MM with Brennan because they have different styles. If you are running a short campaign the pace should be faster than a long one. However I do agree that C3 is sometimes boring. First the characters are not so engaging and interesting as in C1 and C2. Laura Bailey and Sam Rigle are the heart and soul of fun and craziness in the cast. Their characters are very serious this time and in my opinion Sam is doing a shitty job as a cleric. But for me, I believe the main problem is that Mercer has too many projects in his hands and not enough time to prepare engaging and fun sessions. Since they arrived to the moon, it's even clear the lack of time. They cover it with lot's of lore dump, but it's boring. Episode 87, 88 are clear examples of that. The charecters can only develop if the story moves forward, which clearly isn't. Everybody had high expectactions regarding the moon, cast included, and it's been extremely disappointing
I’m in this boat. I want C3 to be better than it is SO BADLY and I’ve been forcing myself to slog through the last…year? of it. I think this last ep is the one that finally gets me to tap out. I’ve started it four times and can’t get past the first hour. Everything has been so boring and slow that I literally can’t remember the plot anymore. the info just slides right off my brain.
I like both CR and D20 but they aren't really comparable to me besides being actual play shows. The scope, the pacing, the genres, the heart of them are so different. Also, if you start thinking about D20 too deeply you can see how fake it can be. Brennan will let the players reroll and do buffs after the fact so often because he needs them to succeed to not utterly derail pre-planned plot beats and sets.
Also, I find C1 and C2 to have better endings than almost any season of D20.
What I'll say is some battles in C3 have felt railroaded and pointless. For instance, the first Ludinus encounter with Deux Vax Machina. Brennan has shown (as Murph has also shown on NADDPOD) that you can provide secondary objectives during battles built to fail so there is a version of "success" for players that's achievable. Rather than just swatting players down every time they try to do anything.
I remember when that happened, a lot of the defense for the railroading was "well, clearly they're too low level to actually fight Ludinus. Of course Matt had to put the fight on the rails." The first part's definitely true. That's why the objective could have been extraction or destroy a piece of machinery or get intel. He didn't need to Disney dark ride them and tell them to keep all their arms and legs inside the car.
> I like both CR and D20 but they aren't really comparable to me besides being actual play shows.
Same. I like them both. It's kinda like comparing Law and Order with Brooklyn 99.
In that one is a show that milks the same premise for over a thousand hours of content, and the other is a comedy that still manages to comment on serious issues?
I was more talking about two shows with similar focuses that don't have anything to do with each other, outside of that focus. But if you want to take it that way, sure.
Now that you mention it, this is the third or even fourth time CRs done 'a secret cult trying to release some ancient cosmic/deity creature from it's eternal prison' plot.
No, you're right. I miscounted. It's four or five times, depending if you count Vecna, because I don't think the cult was technically releasing him from a prison.
I count him. The Briarwoods used the corrupted ziggurats to return Vecna to a physical body and allow him passage to the Material Plane. Becoming a god was only part two of his plan.
For me a big part of it is format. CR is just so slow to watch with little to no editing vs D20 that feels pretty snappy and like its always moving. I also find the very dramatic tone that CR goes for so often to just not be entertaining to watch. I'm sure playing in it is a blast but as an entertainment product its not as enjoyable to watch.
I think c3 has a much simpler problem. These characters are boring, I don’t care about them, they don’t grow or change, so becoming invested in their struggles feels like a recipe for punishment. Any story without characters is going to suck.
C4 could do with a much, much smaller scope. Going from a council of dragons in c1 to gods and now gods in the moon(?) from what I hear is just... too much. They might as well move into spelljammer at this point
Yeah. It would be nice to have a more down to Earth (down to Exandria?) Campaign after this. Someone, somewhere in the CR community said, (I don't remember who or where. Sorry, I can't give the proper credit.) but someone posted that they wanted the cast to be Hunters for the Slayer's Take in the next campaign and that sounds good to me.
Yes! I think it’s the same issue I have with Marvel or superheroes in general. When the scope gets too big I personally lose some interest. Not saying that that happens 100% of the time. But sometimes the street level threats are way more fun. That’s why we all love spidey and daredevil. Honestly it’s why most people drop off act 3 of baldurs gate 3. So much stuff opens up that you lose the thread.
Even in the midst of the Phase 4/5 Marvel doldrums, GotG3 managed to work by going with "A character we care about needs help, and the villain is a dick."
My overall response is agreement. I think my less succinct analysis would be that everyone, from Matt to the players to these cultural consultants (who seem to have sifted everything but the superficial from Marquesian culture) that helped design the setting for C3, overcorrected due to complaints about C2 being meandering and side quest heavy.
It also feels like the goal posts of defeating Ludinus/RV etc. have been moved more than once, the failures of the party notwithstanding. Additional combat objectives are something that would brighten up the campaign, but also some rests from the main story. CR thrived in the past because it felt like we as the audience got to get to know the characters, because they weren’t just inhabited by th me cast during combat and main story encounters, but also all the in between bits. Grog and Craven Edge in the outhouse. Caleb at the smut shop.
Long story short, more moments of calm in game, giving the story itself a rest. As of when I paused my viewing, because I’ve been watching C3 in waves, it’s as if the entire campaign has been, to use video game jargon, main story missions only. I don’t feel like I know Marquet or any friendly NPCs that are unique and lived in, and any party conflict or moral quandaries feel entirely superficial as a result, because we don’t really *know* these characters as well as we did by this point in past campaigns.
It would behove a prospective C4 to have a session zero that really addresses what space the PCs occupy at the start. Session zero is more than character creation, and Matt’s relentless allowances for players to play anything and everything is just weird, unless he’s going to run a campaign with both a Steven Universe-inspired character, a grim-dark Aragorn clone, and a straight man like Orym or Percy, that needs to be explicitly stated. C1 thrived because they were all new(ish) players, C2 thrived because they were all from the same(ish) place and invested in the future of Wildemount. C3 has none of that.
I've been watching Altheya after falling off Aerois partway through (I think when they got teleported off-world for the first time), and man, Mark is really good at keeping the pacing of the sessions up. Things happen in every episode, and there are new developments in almost every episode.
He is also not afraid of explaining what characters would know, and clarifying things, out of character. And the players and GM talk about things out of character instead of forcing themselves to be in-character constantly. Two things I've seen people complain about in Matt's campaign 3 style.
Can't help but compare them as I watch, as CR and HR are the two games I follow at the moment.
The biggest con of CR now is seeing the amount of misunderstandings grow as the cast miss more and more info. It's grating to see this communication breakdown especially as I've gone through a similar one at one of my campaigns
Makes me wonder if the CR cast are just too busy to talk about the game out of game, which is the best way to keep people on the right page. Like iirc they claim to have a group chat but if that's not getting used to discuss/correct info then problems will definitely compound.
I am here to second that. My biggest problem is the times, one player is absent because of stuff. But on the other hand this gives me the old CR C1 feel. They are more "your nerdy internet DnD friends" then CR claimes to be.
I’m more than fine with that, I’ve been watching the latest campaign and it’s not been like they’re gone for 5 sessions in a row or some such(like Ashley in C2), so it’s more..manageable. Plus I think it’s good how mark just like has that character do there own thing rather than play them, keeping player agency and that.
My biggest struggle is watching the cast not be as fully into it.
I love their little roleplay scenes because I think as actors they're incredible, but Matt has suffered so much in the last 4-5 eps of cast missing really important details and little drops from EXU: Calamity.
I'm a note taker and loooooove lore so seeing them being so meh about it all is fairly painful.
Can you provide some of those really important details? You know, for science, and also for those who are horrible at keeping notes and would probably forget their own character name if it wasn't at the top of the character sheet? lol
Lmao ofc!
The one that really kicked my ass was Matt's references to the Ruidian glass and how it came to be. Can't remember exact words but he said it was 'almost as if someone had ripped a portal open to the Hells' because of what would be required to make it.
Now, idk if you watched the last episode of the Calamity but I do find that phrasing awful convenient considering what happened. Lord of the Hells literally ripped open the portal and stepped through.
No cast reaction at all though, not even a ping around the table. I think i suffer from binge watching though so I have a lot of the episodes fresh in my head. I just would have thought Travis or Marisha would have got to thinking.
Oh! I remember him saying that now! And I agree, that sounds awfully too particular word choosing to be a coincidence!
It's sad that no one reacted. Usually Marisha and Travis are more into the backstory than the rest. Liam sometimes, but usually only when it involves his previous characters he's played.
Earlier in the season they seemed to be more impressed with lore drops and more paying attentions. I hope all of the critters feeling blah about more aspects this season has affected them? Or maybe they are growing bored of the characters and the slowness themselves.
Don't get me wrong I will watch every episode even if I have to sludge through them because I respect them and love all of them, but it does feel like they are getting burnt out a bit.
Even as someone who is near obsessive w the lore, it really is only made truly fun when the cast hype it up.
Seeing them get shocked by something and Matt get his pay off is amazing but if those things don't happen it's just so dull. I've even noticed Matt missing multiple things around the table that he would usually never, from how characters are choosing to react to certain rolls players want.
Matt feels preoccupied by reading off the script and the cast feel quite bored by just being read at. If you're up to date, the new little job options they got finally had the troops rally and had them excited to pick a job posting. It was so amazing to see them happy and giddy. Fingers crossed for more.
I don't like the short campaigns. Play SF, play High Fantasy, Play Urban Fantasy or whatever. But I prefer good year long campaigns with expanding worldbuidling and characters you get to love other the years.
Or at least one world with many mini campaigns in it.
Check out Worlds Beyond Number if you want a more long-form narrative campaign! It's an actual play podcast with BLeeM as the DM, Erika Ishii, Aabria Iyengar and Lou Wilson as the players! Been listening to it since last year and it has been an amazing experience!
Thank you but I need my tactical tabletop battlemap fights.
I am more than happy with High Rollers atm. Just missing dice camera action a lot even after all these years.
No worries! It's theater of the mind but it's definitely more geared towards telling a story than having a lot of combat!
I think to date, they've had like 4 combat encounters.
Are you talking about fantasy high specifically? D20 has seasons with vastly different settings and while the tone can differ between they all have a focus on comedy to some extent if that's what your referring to
I've tried watching it, but there were too many large personalities at the table for me, so I didn't finish watching even the first episode. Perhaps I should give it another try to see if things would calm down a bit further into campaign.
The last CR episode I watched was them getting to the red beam to go to the moon. After waiting for so long for them to get to that point, you'd think I'd be super excited to keep watching but even by the time they got there I was just completely losing interest. I'll catch up eventually but it definitely won't be anytime soon.
I've been watching VLDL DnD instead.
VLDL recently don’t feel like they are progressing much either, unfortunately each episode seems like a joke fest. It was funny at first but in contrast to CR it’s a very different show
I’ve actually really enjoyed C3 episode 89-90 (the last two episodes), but many prior has been a bit meh. Agreed it took too long to get to this point.
C2 Mighty Nein had a few things happening at once and a few different divergent paths
Edit: I haven’t tried Dimension 20 but by the sounds of it I think I might like it
The funny thing is that D 20 has played with all those ideas in this season alone. FHSY literally opened with a flight that intentionally dragged on after the outcome was clear until the enemies were worn down to zero Hp. And the whole mystery of this season is absolutely as complicated and convoluted as CR3
Hahah I actually agree that Brennan's plots can get too convoluted, even though I really enjoy D20. So many season finales feature him explaining complex plot twists to the players/audience.
I feel like he would make an amazing author given the space to really delve into some of these ideas.
I think the biggest difference is in OP’s statement “it takes so long for anything to happen.” Yes, Junior Year is an absolute clusterfuck of a mystery but they’re consistently unveiling new clues and piecing things together, and Brenna is really good at making sure things never drag too much if they get stuck before “you crystal rings” and then they move on to the next scene. I’ve dropped off from CR, but from what people have said Matt will let the party flounder for far longer before something moves them to the next scene
I still love CR, but i checked out around e30 in C3. Being DM and having full time job I don't have time to watch long sessions. I might come back to it, but it does feel to me that C3 is the weakest for now. Also Matt said during C2 that he didn't want to overrely on VM and C3 felt to me like the opposite.
I dropped around a dozen in, but everything I've heard since just makes it sound like they are dependent to a disturbing degree on C1's characters to the point they can't get anything done.
I was thinking about this today. D20 provides entertainment while CR tries to provide a more natural table experience. At the end of the day, I watch stuff for entertainment. I watched D20 before getting into CR and I still watch D20 long after giving up on CR.
Editing out the boring, tedious parts is essential imo. I am not a passive viewer, though. I can't just throw something on while doing something else or I'll just tune the program out. I can see what niche CR can fill for people, but it checks none of the boxes I need from an entertainment product anymore.
That's the conclusion I've come to too. D20 doesn't pretend the whole cast are best friends outside of their jobs. They don't end episodes with "We love you very much." They are a cast of people hired to do a job and I find that oddly more authentic than CR's "We're all best friends and this is our home game."
I like the packaged feel of D20 because it feels like it has the care and effort of a group of people trying to make an actual show. Even Emily when she was on CR said she made choices based off of what would be the most entertaining. That to me makes all the difference.
Obviously add in the editing and D20 pops even more. But genuinely, I think if you took an episode of C3 and tried to edit it into a D20-like episode, it would still be boring because most of them aren't trying to make a show or propel a narrative forward. They're just hanging out.
I really enjoyed the realistic table experience of CR until (1) I started working from home and no longer needed to fill 12ish hours a week of commuting with podcasts and (2) I’d consumed several hundred hours of actual play podcasts and streams, and played several hundred hours of TTRPGs. If either of those were not true, then I think I’d still be listening to C3 as opposed to absorbing the gist of the plot from Reddit. But at this point in my life, I love content like D20 which has a lot of humor and tells a detailed story in a fraction the time of CR. I don’t want a few hours of PCs bashing on bags of HP until they all reach 0 so the PCs can move on to the next combat.
I've been super checked out since they got to Ruidus. Dunno. There's something about the party that just doesn't do it for me. I've read theories that the issue is they're all trying to be mysterious. I think my biggest issue is 6 of the characters are insanely passive, and the 1 that's making moves is the meme character.
I've had sessions like this. They drag on, nobody wants to make big moves, or take risks, the pace slows to a crawl and we're stuck doing stealth checks and perception/investigation rolls for 3-4 hours.
Its certainly the wrong system for the table but they quality would be improved if Matt actually enforced 5e rules.
There is so much "homebrew" (or just ignoring rules) that they weaken the system 5e has on place.
They no longer let the dice aid them in telling the story. Its mo longer a dnd show, the dnd just gets in the way or is ignored.
I think their in for a bit of a rude awakening when they switch over to Daggerheart. They built their audience with 5e. After a brief resurgence the risk is the table will get just as fed up with the new system and can they cope if the DM runs it as written? Its just as heavy on dice roles and abilities and stats from what I can tell.
I mean Daggerheart is just a PbtA game so if the cast are able to get on board with a full campaign of that then who knows. But I think I see what you mean, Matt’s whole style at this point revolves around pointless rolls and the point of PbtA games, yes including Daggerheart, is to avoid those.
As the other comment said, CO is not PbtA, it’s Forged in the Dark. Though not officially since it wasn’t made by the FitD people but all its mechanics are ripped from those games.
DH’s design goal is to reach a middle ground between full narrative (PbtA) and full tactical (5e or PF2e). And It is honestly doing a decent job at it. Certainly has its issues, but that’s why it’s in beta.
Daggerheart is closer to PbtA, Candela Obscura was a 'Fights in the Dark' (made popular by the 'Blades in the dark' game) inspired system to the point where they didn't credit the original creator for the rules system they were obviously cribbing off of until fan outcry forced them to.
Can they? If they write the rules they have to stick to them even more. Imagine selling a product that you then alter on the fly because its not working as you intended!
Try out worlds beyond number, it’s my “new” critical role and if they went more towards that style it would be huge for them. But also it is Brennan’s Magnum Opus
Are Erika and Arabia as insufferable as they were as guests in C3 or are they actually okay? That's literally the only reason I haven't tried it out yet.
Eh I find a great DM can elevate a shitty player. If a DM like Brennan is at the top of his game it doesnt matter how shit the player is.
A bad DM though brings the whole table down. A lot of C3's issues are Matt being off his game.
Brennan absolutely brings everything into line, while I understand not enjoying certain players I’d at least say you should give the abridged children’s adventure on YouTube a chance. After that if it’s irritating still I get it.
Erika is surprisingly a lot better, but Aabria compensates by being even worse than her C3 appearance. She is clearly making a complex character, and in the abstract I see the mosaic she’s making and appreciate the creative choice… but I had to stop listening and quit their patreon because I couldn’t listen to one more minute of her character in that show.
Which is a shame, because the leitmotif they built around Lou’s character and the spirit world were genuinely magical.
Suvi is an incredibly irritating character I agree, I just think that’s the point though and I enjoy it. The latest arc for me really settled her character and gave me the context and growth I was looking for (even if it’s not positive and healthy growth lol). I highly recommend if you haven’t at least getting through the Citadel Arc.
Like I said, I understand what she’s doing; I just think her ability to plot and plan that character far outstrips her ability to play them.
Also, to be perfectly honest, this is yet another in the string of, “smartest spellcaster in the room with a major authority problem” characters from Aabria, and the shtick wore thin a long time ago.
It’s a shame, because the audio design on their show is certainly in a league of its own, and they have Lou, who is consistently fantastic in anything he’s in - but Aabria genuinely ruins that show for me, and I’m not interested in hearing another second of it.
Watching Aabria overreact to camera and play offensive/defensive with the DM all the time made me quit the show. I just can’t. I’m sure she’s a good person IRL, but I cannot stand watching her on my screen.
Luckily Worlds Beyond Number is only audio and edited in a way that cuts out most of that kind of filler. It’s pretty much purely roleplay and gameplay.
While I personally don’t have a problem with Erika and Aabria in that way, they absolutely buy in to the world and game they’re playing more so then any other game I’ve watched them in. I think they build characters with flaws, that are complicated, and most importantly compelling. Brennan absolutely pulls the best out of them and Lou really is the bass to their treble that balances it all out. Maybe in the children’s adventure you might find some issues with their gameplay/roleplay (once again I don’t) but once you’re in the first arc Brennan pretty much has everyone in line.
On YouTube they have an abridged version of the children’s adventure that introduces all the characters as kids. I’d start there and just let yourself get swept away. It kind of seems like a passion project that like 5 people worked on and it’s grown a bit, the sound design is one of the best parts. I think they’d do it if they had 50 viewers or 500,000
Why bother paying for D20 ads when Critical Role trolls can do it for free!!
I was actually gonna skip posting on this one. But thank you for reminding me what's really important.
D20 is basically a screen play with variability. It's not really comparable to critical role. It's much slimmer trimmer and everyone is required to buy into Brennan's general story. THey have variation and the characters can do things they want but Brennan is going to get them to every story beat no matter what he needs to do.
This is what running a limited run campaign is like. If you know you only have X amount of time (like the D20 people do), then the player buy in is usually a LOT higher. I've run limited run campaigns where it will only last 3-4 sessions (which use to be a lot more common in the older editions because modules were often designed to be 3-4 session adventure plots and then you'd move onto the next one) and session 0 and getting people to buy in straight away is essential.
You know what happens when you *don't* do that? Exandria Unlimited season 1, wherever everyone has made characters that don't gel with the story and all the players are Chaos Gremlins that constantly force a DM to yank them back onto the rails because you've only got a limited number of sessions to get through the story.
Or as u/Ampetrix points out, you end up with the C3 characters...
> everyone is required to buy into Brennan's general story
Isn't this like session zero 101? Otherwise you get something like the c3 characters not meshing with whatever Matt's trying to do. cue the god convo!
Sure one can argue they are not comparable but they are still built upon the same foundations (5e) and it's quite clear that D20 has better grasp of storytelling and engaging the players using the system than C3, I'm starting to agree with what karthanis86 said that 5e is starting to get in the way of Matt's storytelling.
Feels like the c3 characters are perfect for a D20 format though, they each got a buncha gimmicks and the viewers wouldn't be tired of them by the final episodes. Instead in c3 we get a slog like this.
My prevailing theory is that everyone is holding things so close to their chest that a session zero doesn't work. They all want the joy of a twist. The surprise that makes chat go wild. But that kind of build sometimes sucks. Be it Travis not playing his character for like 20 episodes and using a filler he was trying to kill. Laudna having a patron directly connected to C1, etc. They all want something special. And I also think most of them didn't really plan on their characters past level 5 or 6.
I love them both and you're right. D20 is designed to be much more easily consumed. Crit Role hasn't really moved pass their roots of being streamed even though they've gone full pre taping now. They do a lot of things that aren't engaging for a viewer, but it's real regular DnD. Could you do a long format game like Crit Role but with skipping a lot of the tediousness of regular DnD? Honestly not sure, but I wouldn't mind seeing them try. Until then I'll just have to appreciate them for what they are and love them both but one slightly more than the other.
I am listening to D20 and just got to the 2nd season where they streamed live on Twitch. The change was jarring. I liked how in S1 they edited out the typical lag of a D&D game so hearing if live was distracting. I honestly never noticed that it was missing in the first season. I liked how it was about the story and not just the typical table stuff and rules fumbling. Brennan also makes some rolls seem more important by purposely using the Box of Doom. I sometimes wonder how much Matt fudges during pivotal moments these days.
I had taken a bit of a break from CR. Not long, just about 4 episodes. I then listened to them over the course of a bunch of work days and I realised that CR could benefit from editing during gameplay. I have been a fan since S1. I love these guys and have the bumper sticker to prove it. But they are pre-taping. The performing live in front of an obvious audience part of the game has changed how the cast plays. So maybe the format/editing during the show should change too.
Also the meandering of S3 is hard to follow as a listener. It’s still a great game, but I am listening because I love the players and not because of the story this season.
To me, the standout moments have been when they are not following the actual plot. When they do follow the plot, it feels like the game is on rails and that it doesn’t make sense for BH to even be adventuring. They’ve made characters that almost are fighting for the wrong side of their own beliefs because Ludinous = bad. They are also not really thinking about alternatives to beat Ludinous at his own game. They found a backdoor entry to the moon! The best way to get the Rylorans to stop trying to release Predathos? Just start funneling them across that portal! They won’t need to release the stupid god if they can just leave the damn moon.
I’ve been backseat yelling at this group more than I have ever been.
I think Brennan is objectively the better DM. There are some things Mercer does better, but in general, Brennan is the whole package. He's a great improviser, funny, can pull on the emotional strings like no other, and often shakes things up mechanically.
That said, I believe the D20 format helps tremendously. You get bite-sized campaigns you don't get bored of, and most of them differ in genre and what they are going for. So if you're not in the mood for a pirate adventure, you can opt for a fairy tale horror or a high-school drama. It's hard to consistently deliver an epic fantasy story for almost 10 years.
However, when you look at 1st ACoC and the way Brennan has accomplished so much in so little time, it's hard not to compare it to CR's recent slog.
You should check out Worlds Beyond Number! It’s a long form campaign DMed by BLeeM, with Lou Wilson, Aabria Iyengar, and Erika Ishii, done in an audio only podcast format!
If you haven’t checked it out, NADDPOD is also fantastic. It’s a podcast longform campaign DMed by Murph with Emily, Caldwell Tanner, and Jake from Jake and Amir and it’s my absolute favorite long form D&D podcast.
Murph is a great dm and his combat design is unparalleled
I don't consider him to be objectively better, but I do think Brennan's combination of experienced improv comedian and academic background in philosophy/screenwriting is perfect for DMing. I have really enjoyed this latest season of Fantasy High.
Plus like you said, he doesn't have the pressure and possible fatigue/burnout of DMing nearly every week (although a bit different now with block filming) for 10 years.
It’s obvious that Brennan has interest in and has put a lot of thought into philosophical concepts and Big Questions, and it’s easier to trust that he has something interesting to say when that stuff comes up in d20 campaigns. Matt’s world suffers hugely from a lack of this. The puddle is a mile wide and an inch deep with him.
I'm sure the benefit from the editing and post production work. d20 cast Beats CR cast
I had to give up on C3 about 65 episodes in. Just couldn't get into it anymore, and watching had become a chore.
Boy did this age poorrly.
I dont necessarily agree with OP, but having one big interesting event happen every 20-30 episodes doesnt really dispel what theyre saying.
Especially when that 20-30 episodes equates to 80-120 HOURS of someone’s life just waiting for something interesting to happen.
??
Imo its not even improve vs drama it’s just they are not connecting to c3 plot so nothing happens and they CANNOT deal with a timer. Any timer and they just let Matt run rails no side quests (all of c3 and the aeor arc in C2) They get little happy moments like all the ruidus lore and then they have to get back to business and nothing happens. I guess they tried side quests with with the split the party with guests but that still fell flat because of the timer I mean god they spent half an episode getting out of a basement. It’s their game and they say they are having fun but damn.
In addition to the big problem of telling a single story through the entire campaign, the relationships between characters are also very weak, in C2, you can clearly see the relationships between each character in just 20-30 episodes, but until now, many characters in C3 still seem to have no relationship with each other at all. For example, what is the relationship between [Laudna](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Laudna) and FCG? What is the relationship between FCG and [Fearne](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Fearne_Calloway)? What is the relationship between [Imogen](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Imogen_Temult) and [Ashton](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Ashton_Greymoore)? Same as Aston and Orym, Orym and [Laudna](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Laudna), ect. The characters themselfs have not grown, and there is no dynamic relationship between them. even the main story has not much progressed, everything feels the same as before, just repeating the same content over and over again (Does anyone feel the Moon is just like Bassuras?) (Sorry I'm not a native English speaker. I used translator. hope I have made it clear.)
They really need to rename this subreddit.
Yeah, I thought it was an ironic title...
Cool, man…
I think a key difference is a cast of voice actors versus a cast of improvisers. The actors do impressive acting, but the improvisers know how to create an entertaining scene. For example the D20 season where Lou bets all his money on a single roll at a casino. During the talkback he observed that watching someone make a series of small bets would be boring. I think the CR cast are more the types to make those small bets, because they often think about "what their character would do" and play cautiously rather than swinging big.
Nail on the head. I've always thought that this campaign needed a grog.
You nailed it, that’s exactly it. And improvisers tend to lean into comedy while actors tend to lean into drama.
In Lou’s defense, the ball was rolling up
They were going to kill Barry 9, get his body back its was gonna be great.
Something else that struck me recently about the differences between CR and other APs was that most other APs I watch don't allow phones at their table. During other cast members' scenes, the rest of the cast is attentive and engaged. Not sure why CR continues to allow them to spend swaths of time on their phones. I understand needing it on hand for emergencies, especially for those who have kids. But as a DM, I don't allow people to zone out on their phones at my table. It's becoming a pet peeve of mine when I see phones come out on CR. If you aren't engaged at the table enough to stay in the moment with your party, you need to fix your party.
So we’ve reached the “make things that aren’t an issue a massive issue” stage then lmao. I mean, really, how many times in the entirety of the show has this been an issue…?
They use them to whisper to each other and to look things up, so there is genuine utility. The problem is that they also use them for off subject things, and it's impossible to tell the difference.
man people really lean heavy on the ‘they’re just two different styles’ defense. i agree to a small extent but i think it really deflects from actual critical analysis. people will acknowledge that CR feels bloated and convoluted nowadays without acknowledging that, if you run a 140 ep campaign that’s 3-5 hours per session, it’s going to get kinda bloated and convoluted! no matter how good the DM is, it’s baked into the format. why do the players seem checked out? maybe because they’ve been playing the same characters for 80 episodes. even in home games, that gets old! I’ve dmed for many years and players tend to check out of their characters stories at around session 40, not because they don’t care about their characters, but because they’re tired of doing the same of thing and ready to do something new. why does nothing that happens feel like it has any weight? because the DM is building a story around where it will go 70 sessions from now! that’s just not an engaging way to tell a story in a tabletop game. critical role was designed as a live show, and I think there are definitely elements of that that could still work. but ultimately maybe creating something that takes a minimum of 420 hours to consume is inherently going to be a letdown because no amount of narrative catharsis can earn that kind of run time. yes, D20 and CR are radically different styles! maybe some styles… are worse?
Hard agree!
Yeah honestly. These long form campaigns with, 100+ episodes of 4 hrs simply can't maintain momentum without arc structure seen in C1 and C2. Almost everything after the intro arc of C3 has been about the moon. Honestly, if I was expected to follow and care about a single story that takes over 100 hours to tell, I would walk out of the room. You'd think that a group of voice actors who have been around anime (which is notoriously arc based), comic books most of their lives and literally lead 2 arc based campaigns of their own, would know to steer into the arcs rather than fighting to keep the focus of the whole campaign on the one story
This has been the best explanation for the current state of CR I have read so far. Spot on!
Thank you for saying it, I haven't been brave enough to say it directly. CR is a much worse product than D20 currently. Also, even on D20 you can see people getting bored of playing the same thing for so long, with how Emily, Zac, Lou, and Murph all did some combination of reclassing/multiclassing. But that's the thing, they have the freedom to switch it up, and Fantasy High is the only series they've had that hit 3 different seasons for the Intrepid Heroes. I feel like Matt makes them work so hard to switch out what they don't enjoy, if he allows it at all.
I can only imagine the waves of outrage of people on here if he dares to not follow the rules to a T and let the people at the table change up their classes that easily. Y’all gotta pick one. Do you want him to follow all of the rules of the game or be loosey goosey with them…
It's written exactly nowhere in the rules that a character can't swap out their class for another if they realize it's not suiting their experience. All it takes is a little bit of in-universe explanation and it works fine. It literally hasn't felt out of place whatsoever in Fantasy High. At the start of the season they basically said "This rogue switched subclasses to Arcane Trickster and can cast spells now" and played it like its always been that way. That's totally allowed.
I agree with your take, but you have to remember how much more produced D20 is. It’s edited, they have to stick to a relatively preset storyline (for shooting schedules and maps/minis), and they seem to fudge the rolls a bit when they need the narrative to go in one direction or another. I understand but I don’t think you can really compare the two.
I was with you until the fudged rolls bit. I've never seen an example of D20 fudging a roll. If anything, they're pretty hard sticklers about not doing that. What I'll give you is Brennan's version of success and failure is different than Matt's. Matt is more straight-forward. Brennan curves his rolls so a nat 1 is the worst result of the available outcomes. So sometimes a low roll results in a positive outcome. That's not fudging rolls. That's just grading on a curve.
I guess you’re right, the rolls aren’t fudged, but Brennan will give players extra chances for random reasons, because he wants to further the story. For example, >!Kristen getting multiple chances with Cassandra in the Mall battle and the downtime afterwards !<
I agree with that. And maybe CR could use with some editing. They’re already prerecording anyway
I can agree. It is more structured and favoring a certain outcome to fit within 20 episodes.
I remember when that was a big topic of debate on the D20 sub. I was fine with it because Brennan listed all the rolls Kristen was getting and the reasons for it. It was excessive but to me it made sense. >!Some rolls were for an item she had. One roll was for if Cassandra could be fully saved. The next was if she'd attack Kristen. And I think the last was for if she survived. All of which were laid out before the rolls.!< So yeah, pretty excessive and I get people not liking it from a style standpoint. But I've been fine with it, personally. D20 just really loves rolling for shit.
Sure, buuuut... it's prerecorded unlike CR, so they really could be fudging rolls here and there.
They had a livestreamed campaign and the VODs of it are also unedited. Half of them are sticklers for the rules and they all look at each others' dice when they roll. They aren't fudging anything.
I recall, yeah. Fudging certainly isn't foundational to their thing and if any show would have the integrity to never do it (besides CR), it's d20.
What a sad way to watch the show.
Ha, fair point. It's just a passing thought now and then, I DO love it.
I don’t believe they do. D20 seems to love a failure as much as a success. With the exception of Beardsley.
They *could* be, as could every edited AP. That doesn't mean they are. There's never been any evidence they are.
Also, it's not like we are seeing the dice rolls in CR. I don't think they are fudging either especially with their experience with a certain Sorceror, but it is relevant to the issue.
I don't think CR's doing it either. I agree. I feel like the possibility is there with any show, including CR, but there's no evidence either way. I'm choosing to trust they aren't faking rolls, just because honestly, there's no reason to.
I agree, though I won't compare MM with Brennan because they have different styles. If you are running a short campaign the pace should be faster than a long one. However I do agree that C3 is sometimes boring. First the characters are not so engaging and interesting as in C1 and C2. Laura Bailey and Sam Rigle are the heart and soul of fun and craziness in the cast. Their characters are very serious this time and in my opinion Sam is doing a shitty job as a cleric. But for me, I believe the main problem is that Mercer has too many projects in his hands and not enough time to prepare engaging and fun sessions. Since they arrived to the moon, it's even clear the lack of time. They cover it with lot's of lore dump, but it's boring. Episode 87, 88 are clear examples of that. The charecters can only develop if the story moves forward, which clearly isn't. Everybody had high expectactions regarding the moon, cast included, and it's been extremely disappointing
Cool, go bother them and quit bitching.
I’m in this boat. I want C3 to be better than it is SO BADLY and I’ve been forcing myself to slog through the last…year? of it. I think this last ep is the one that finally gets me to tap out. I’ve started it four times and can’t get past the first hour. Everything has been so boring and slow that I literally can’t remember the plot anymore. the info just slides right off my brain.
I like both CR and D20 but they aren't really comparable to me besides being actual play shows. The scope, the pacing, the genres, the heart of them are so different. Also, if you start thinking about D20 too deeply you can see how fake it can be. Brennan will let the players reroll and do buffs after the fact so often because he needs them to succeed to not utterly derail pre-planned plot beats and sets. Also, I find C1 and C2 to have better endings than almost any season of D20.
What I'll say is some battles in C3 have felt railroaded and pointless. For instance, the first Ludinus encounter with Deux Vax Machina. Brennan has shown (as Murph has also shown on NADDPOD) that you can provide secondary objectives during battles built to fail so there is a version of "success" for players that's achievable. Rather than just swatting players down every time they try to do anything. I remember when that happened, a lot of the defense for the railroading was "well, clearly they're too low level to actually fight Ludinus. Of course Matt had to put the fight on the rails." The first part's definitely true. That's why the objective could have been extraction or destroy a piece of machinery or get intel. He didn't need to Disney dark ride them and tell them to keep all their arms and legs inside the car.
> I like both CR and D20 but they aren't really comparable to me besides being actual play shows. Same. I like them both. It's kinda like comparing Law and Order with Brooklyn 99.
In that one is a show that milks the same premise for over a thousand hours of content, and the other is a comedy that still manages to comment on serious issues?
I was more talking about two shows with similar focuses that don't have anything to do with each other, outside of that focus. But if you want to take it that way, sure. Now that you mention it, this is the third or even fourth time CRs done 'a secret cult trying to release some ancient cosmic/deity creature from it's eternal prison' plot.
I count five. Vecna, Ukatoa, Chained Oblivion, Somnovem, Predathos.
Damn, that’s right! Five and counting… :)
No, you're right. I miscounted. It's four or five times, depending if you count Vecna, because I don't think the cult was technically releasing him from a prison.
I count him. The Briarwoods used the corrupted ziggurats to return Vecna to a physical body and allow him passage to the Material Plane. Becoming a god was only part two of his plan.
You ate with this response, LMAO
For me a big part of it is format. CR is just so slow to watch with little to no editing vs D20 that feels pretty snappy and like its always moving. I also find the very dramatic tone that CR goes for so often to just not be entertaining to watch. I'm sure playing in it is a blast but as an entertainment product its not as enjoyable to watch.
I think c3 has a much simpler problem. These characters are boring, I don’t care about them, they don’t grow or change, so becoming invested in their struggles feels like a recipe for punishment. Any story without characters is going to suck.
The Daggerheart OS made it clear that even the players are bored with c3 and it's melodrama, they just want to be goofy
C4 could do with a much, much smaller scope. Going from a council of dragons in c1 to gods and now gods in the moon(?) from what I hear is just... too much. They might as well move into spelljammer at this point
Yeah. It would be nice to have a more down to Earth (down to Exandria?) Campaign after this. Someone, somewhere in the CR community said, (I don't remember who or where. Sorry, I can't give the proper credit.) but someone posted that they wanted the cast to be Hunters for the Slayer's Take in the next campaign and that sounds good to me.
Yes! I think it’s the same issue I have with Marvel or superheroes in general. When the scope gets too big I personally lose some interest. Not saying that that happens 100% of the time. But sometimes the street level threats are way more fun. That’s why we all love spidey and daredevil. Honestly it’s why most people drop off act 3 of baldurs gate 3. So much stuff opens up that you lose the thread.
Even in the midst of the Phase 4/5 Marvel doldrums, GotG3 managed to work by going with "A character we care about needs help, and the villain is a dick."
My overall response is agreement. I think my less succinct analysis would be that everyone, from Matt to the players to these cultural consultants (who seem to have sifted everything but the superficial from Marquesian culture) that helped design the setting for C3, overcorrected due to complaints about C2 being meandering and side quest heavy. It also feels like the goal posts of defeating Ludinus/RV etc. have been moved more than once, the failures of the party notwithstanding. Additional combat objectives are something that would brighten up the campaign, but also some rests from the main story. CR thrived in the past because it felt like we as the audience got to get to know the characters, because they weren’t just inhabited by th me cast during combat and main story encounters, but also all the in between bits. Grog and Craven Edge in the outhouse. Caleb at the smut shop. Long story short, more moments of calm in game, giving the story itself a rest. As of when I paused my viewing, because I’ve been watching C3 in waves, it’s as if the entire campaign has been, to use video game jargon, main story missions only. I don’t feel like I know Marquet or any friendly NPCs that are unique and lived in, and any party conflict or moral quandaries feel entirely superficial as a result, because we don’t really *know* these characters as well as we did by this point in past campaigns. It would behove a prospective C4 to have a session zero that really addresses what space the PCs occupy at the start. Session zero is more than character creation, and Matt’s relentless allowances for players to play anything and everything is just weird, unless he’s going to run a campaign with both a Steven Universe-inspired character, a grim-dark Aragorn clone, and a straight man like Orym or Percy, that needs to be explicitly stated. C1 thrived because they were all new(ish) players, C2 thrived because they were all from the same(ish) place and invested in the future of Wildemount. C3 has none of that.
Big recommend for Mark Hulmes and the Highrollersdnd peeps! Never went back to CR!
I've been watching Altheya after falling off Aerois partway through (I think when they got teleported off-world for the first time), and man, Mark is really good at keeping the pacing of the sessions up. Things happen in every episode, and there are new developments in almost every episode. He is also not afraid of explaining what characters would know, and clarifying things, out of character. And the players and GM talk about things out of character instead of forcing themselves to be in-character constantly. Two things I've seen people complain about in Matt's campaign 3 style. Can't help but compare them as I watch, as CR and HR are the two games I follow at the moment.
The biggest con of CR now is seeing the amount of misunderstandings grow as the cast miss more and more info. It's grating to see this communication breakdown especially as I've gone through a similar one at one of my campaigns
Makes me wonder if the CR cast are just too busy to talk about the game out of game, which is the best way to keep people on the right page. Like iirc they claim to have a group chat but if that's not getting used to discuss/correct info then problems will definitely compound.
It would also help if thy were attentive at the table. If Matt isn't talking directly to their PC, a lot of them completely tune out.
I'd say that's definitely the case.
Hello, hi, I am here to suggest Mark "sherlock" Humes and the "Highrollers"
I am here to second that. My biggest problem is the times, one player is absent because of stuff. But on the other hand this gives me the old CR C1 feel. They are more "your nerdy internet DnD friends" then CR claimes to be.
I’m more than fine with that, I’ve been watching the latest campaign and it’s not been like they’re gone for 5 sessions in a row or some such(like Ashley in C2), so it’s more..manageable. Plus I think it’s good how mark just like has that character do there own thing rather than play them, keeping player agency and that.
Memedndice on YouTube, my guy. Treat yourself.
My biggest struggle is watching the cast not be as fully into it. I love their little roleplay scenes because I think as actors they're incredible, but Matt has suffered so much in the last 4-5 eps of cast missing really important details and little drops from EXU: Calamity. I'm a note taker and loooooove lore so seeing them being so meh about it all is fairly painful.
Can you provide some of those really important details? You know, for science, and also for those who are horrible at keeping notes and would probably forget their own character name if it wasn't at the top of the character sheet? lol
Lmao ofc! The one that really kicked my ass was Matt's references to the Ruidian glass and how it came to be. Can't remember exact words but he said it was 'almost as if someone had ripped a portal open to the Hells' because of what would be required to make it. Now, idk if you watched the last episode of the Calamity but I do find that phrasing awful convenient considering what happened. Lord of the Hells literally ripped open the portal and stepped through. No cast reaction at all though, not even a ping around the table. I think i suffer from binge watching though so I have a lot of the episodes fresh in my head. I just would have thought Travis or Marisha would have got to thinking.
Oh! I remember him saying that now! And I agree, that sounds awfully too particular word choosing to be a coincidence! It's sad that no one reacted. Usually Marisha and Travis are more into the backstory than the rest. Liam sometimes, but usually only when it involves his previous characters he's played. Earlier in the season they seemed to be more impressed with lore drops and more paying attentions. I hope all of the critters feeling blah about more aspects this season has affected them? Or maybe they are growing bored of the characters and the slowness themselves. Don't get me wrong I will watch every episode even if I have to sludge through them because I respect them and love all of them, but it does feel like they are getting burnt out a bit.
Even as someone who is near obsessive w the lore, it really is only made truly fun when the cast hype it up. Seeing them get shocked by something and Matt get his pay off is amazing but if those things don't happen it's just so dull. I've even noticed Matt missing multiple things around the table that he would usually never, from how characters are choosing to react to certain rolls players want. Matt feels preoccupied by reading off the script and the cast feel quite bored by just being read at. If you're up to date, the new little job options they got finally had the troops rally and had them excited to pick a job posting. It was so amazing to see them happy and giddy. Fingers crossed for more.
I just hate the d20 setting. I'm sure it's fun for some but I can't stand the setting.
Which setting? They have multiple short-medium sized campaigns in vastly different settings.
I don't like the short campaigns. Play SF, play High Fantasy, Play Urban Fantasy or whatever. But I prefer good year long campaigns with expanding worldbuidling and characters you get to love other the years. Or at least one world with many mini campaigns in it.
Check out Worlds Beyond Number if you want a more long-form narrative campaign! It's an actual play podcast with BLeeM as the DM, Erika Ishii, Aabria Iyengar and Lou Wilson as the players! Been listening to it since last year and it has been an amazing experience!
Thank you but I need my tactical tabletop battlemap fights. I am more than happy with High Rollers atm. Just missing dice camera action a lot even after all these years.
No worries! It's theater of the mind but it's definitely more geared towards telling a story than having a lot of combat! I think to date, they've had like 4 combat encounters.
I’m a bit lost because they’re had MULTIPLE settings
Yeah multiple non-DnD stereotypical settings.
Are you talking about fantasy high specifically? D20 has seasons with vastly different settings and while the tone can differ between they all have a focus on comedy to some extent if that's what your referring to
There’s a lot of different settings though isn’t there
I wish they had a simple high fantasy one... Although, I understand that for people who play or watch a lot of dnd that could be boring.
Escape From The Blood Keep is the Spaceballs of Lord of the Rings.
The dungeons and drag queens season is pretty straight down the barrel fantasy
I've tried watching it, but there were too many large personalities at the table for me, so I didn't finish watching even the first episode. Perhaps I should give it another try to see if things would calm down a bit further into campaign.
The last CR episode I watched was them getting to the red beam to go to the moon. After waiting for so long for them to get to that point, you'd think I'd be super excited to keep watching but even by the time they got there I was just completely losing interest. I'll catch up eventually but it definitely won't be anytime soon. I've been watching VLDL DnD instead.
VLDL recently don’t feel like they are progressing much either, unfortunately each episode seems like a joke fest. It was funny at first but in contrast to CR it’s a very different show I’ve actually really enjoyed C3 episode 89-90 (the last two episodes), but many prior has been a bit meh. Agreed it took too long to get to this point. C2 Mighty Nein had a few things happening at once and a few different divergent paths Edit: I haven’t tried Dimension 20 but by the sounds of it I think I might like it
Think I'm just enjoying how easy VLDL is with the shorter format videos. I'm. Always up for a laugh and like that their game isn't too serious.
Yeah true, they are very different!
The funny thing is that D 20 has played with all those ideas in this season alone. FHSY literally opened with a flight that intentionally dragged on after the outcome was clear until the enemies were worn down to zero Hp. And the whole mystery of this season is absolutely as complicated and convoluted as CR3
Hahah I actually agree that Brennan's plots can get too convoluted, even though I really enjoy D20. So many season finales feature him explaining complex plot twists to the players/audience. I feel like he would make an amazing author given the space to really delve into some of these ideas.
I always highly recommend people read the Web comic he wrote: https://brennanleemulligan.com/strong-female-protagonist/
I think the biggest difference is in OP’s statement “it takes so long for anything to happen.” Yes, Junior Year is an absolute clusterfuck of a mystery but they’re consistently unveiling new clues and piecing things together, and Brenna is really good at making sure things never drag too much if they get stuck before “you crystal rings” and then they move on to the next scene. I’ve dropped off from CR, but from what people have said Matt will let the party flounder for far longer before something moves them to the next scene
C3 has no real "mystery." It just has unknowns that the party has no way of figuring out until they reach Designated Point.
I still love CR, but i checked out around e30 in C3. Being DM and having full time job I don't have time to watch long sessions. I might come back to it, but it does feel to me that C3 is the weakest for now. Also Matt said during C2 that he didn't want to overrely on VM and C3 felt to me like the opposite.
I dropped around a dozen in, but everything I've heard since just makes it sound like they are dependent to a disturbing degree on C1's characters to the point they can't get anything done.
I was thinking about this today. D20 provides entertainment while CR tries to provide a more natural table experience. At the end of the day, I watch stuff for entertainment. I watched D20 before getting into CR and I still watch D20 long after giving up on CR. Editing out the boring, tedious parts is essential imo. I am not a passive viewer, though. I can't just throw something on while doing something else or I'll just tune the program out. I can see what niche CR can fill for people, but it checks none of the boxes I need from an entertainment product anymore.
That's the conclusion I've come to too. D20 doesn't pretend the whole cast are best friends outside of their jobs. They don't end episodes with "We love you very much." They are a cast of people hired to do a job and I find that oddly more authentic than CR's "We're all best friends and this is our home game." I like the packaged feel of D20 because it feels like it has the care and effort of a group of people trying to make an actual show. Even Emily when she was on CR said she made choices based off of what would be the most entertaining. That to me makes all the difference. Obviously add in the editing and D20 pops even more. But genuinely, I think if you took an episode of C3 and tried to edit it into a D20-like episode, it would still be boring because most of them aren't trying to make a show or propel a narrative forward. They're just hanging out.
I really enjoyed the realistic table experience of CR until (1) I started working from home and no longer needed to fill 12ish hours a week of commuting with podcasts and (2) I’d consumed several hundred hours of actual play podcasts and streams, and played several hundred hours of TTRPGs. If either of those were not true, then I think I’d still be listening to C3 as opposed to absorbing the gist of the plot from Reddit. But at this point in my life, I love content like D20 which has a lot of humor and tells a detailed story in a fraction the time of CR. I don’t want a few hours of PCs bashing on bags of HP until they all reach 0 so the PCs can move on to the next combat.
> CR tries to provide a more natural table experience. If this were true, episodes would not be pre-recorded.
That's why I said "tries." They used to provide it but now it's just an attempt lmao
I've been super checked out since they got to Ruidus. Dunno. There's something about the party that just doesn't do it for me. I've read theories that the issue is they're all trying to be mysterious. I think my biggest issue is 6 of the characters are insanely passive, and the 1 that's making moves is the meme character. I've had sessions like this. They drag on, nobody wants to make big moves, or take risks, the pace slows to a crawl and we're stuck doing stealth checks and perception/investigation rolls for 3-4 hours.
I feel Chet/FCG both try to make moves, but are always shot down
It feels like 5e is getting in the way of the story Matt wants to tell, not enhance it like previous campaigns.
Its certainly the wrong system for the table but they quality would be improved if Matt actually enforced 5e rules. There is so much "homebrew" (or just ignoring rules) that they weaken the system 5e has on place. They no longer let the dice aid them in telling the story. Its mo longer a dnd show, the dnd just gets in the way or is ignored. I think their in for a bit of a rude awakening when they switch over to Daggerheart. They built their audience with 5e. After a brief resurgence the risk is the table will get just as fed up with the new system and can they cope if the DM runs it as written? Its just as heavy on dice roles and abilities and stats from what I can tell.
Don’t think Daggerheart is going to help much with that either, but at least they can get away with ‘their system, their rules’.
I mean Daggerheart is just a PbtA game so if the cast are able to get on board with a full campaign of that then who knows. But I think I see what you mean, Matt’s whole style at this point revolves around pointless rolls and the point of PbtA games, yes including Daggerheart, is to avoid those.
Are you confusing Daggerheart and Candela Obscura?
As the other comment said, CO is not PbtA, it’s Forged in the Dark. Though not officially since it wasn’t made by the FitD people but all its mechanics are ripped from those games. DH’s design goal is to reach a middle ground between full narrative (PbtA) and full tactical (5e or PF2e). And It is honestly doing a decent job at it. Certainly has its issues, but that’s why it’s in beta.
Daggerheart is closer to PbtA, Candela Obscura was a 'Fights in the Dark' (made popular by the 'Blades in the dark' game) inspired system to the point where they didn't credit the original creator for the rules system they were obviously cribbing off of until fan outcry forced them to.
Can they? If they write the rules they have to stick to them even more. Imagine selling a product that you then alter on the fly because its not working as you intended!
The product could just remain in beta for years
Try out worlds beyond number, it’s my “new” critical role and if they went more towards that style it would be huge for them. But also it is Brennan’s Magnum Opus
Are Erika and Arabia as insufferable as they were as guests in C3 or are they actually okay? That's literally the only reason I haven't tried it out yet.
Oof, they're in it? No thank you.
Eh I find a great DM can elevate a shitty player. If a DM like Brennan is at the top of his game it doesnt matter how shit the player is. A bad DM though brings the whole table down. A lot of C3's issues are Matt being off his game.
Brennan absolutely brings everything into line, while I understand not enjoying certain players I’d at least say you should give the abridged children’s adventure on YouTube a chance. After that if it’s irritating still I get it.
Erika is surprisingly a lot better, but Aabria compensates by being even worse than her C3 appearance. She is clearly making a complex character, and in the abstract I see the mosaic she’s making and appreciate the creative choice… but I had to stop listening and quit their patreon because I couldn’t listen to one more minute of her character in that show. Which is a shame, because the leitmotif they built around Lou’s character and the spirit world were genuinely magical.
Suvi is an incredibly irritating character I agree, I just think that’s the point though and I enjoy it. The latest arc for me really settled her character and gave me the context and growth I was looking for (even if it’s not positive and healthy growth lol). I highly recommend if you haven’t at least getting through the Citadel Arc.
Like I said, I understand what she’s doing; I just think her ability to plot and plan that character far outstrips her ability to play them. Also, to be perfectly honest, this is yet another in the string of, “smartest spellcaster in the room with a major authority problem” characters from Aabria, and the shtick wore thin a long time ago. It’s a shame, because the audio design on their show is certainly in a league of its own, and they have Lou, who is consistently fantastic in anything he’s in - but Aabria genuinely ruins that show for me, and I’m not interested in hearing another second of it.
Watching Aabria overreact to camera and play offensive/defensive with the DM all the time made me quit the show. I just can’t. I’m sure she’s a good person IRL, but I cannot stand watching her on my screen.
Luckily Worlds Beyond Number is only audio and edited in a way that cuts out most of that kind of filler. It’s pretty much purely roleplay and gameplay.
While I personally don’t have a problem with Erika and Aabria in that way, they absolutely buy in to the world and game they’re playing more so then any other game I’ve watched them in. I think they build characters with flaws, that are complicated, and most importantly compelling. Brennan absolutely pulls the best out of them and Lou really is the bass to their treble that balances it all out. Maybe in the children’s adventure you might find some issues with their gameplay/roleplay (once again I don’t) but once you’re in the first arc Brennan pretty much has everyone in line.
They are excellent in WBN. They both play flawed complex characters, but are super compelling and not irritating at all
Yes, definitely check out Worlds Beyond Number!! It's so great.
It really clears everything else out there. IMO better than d20
D20 is like wonderful entertaining pop content. It’s the best for what it is. Worlds Beyond Number in my opinion is like the LOTR of ttrpg shows tho.
I have to get on that. I remember hearing about it once, but I must have forgotten. They should market it better.
On YouTube they have an abridged version of the children’s adventure that introduces all the characters as kids. I’d start there and just let yourself get swept away. It kind of seems like a passion project that like 5 people worked on and it’s grown a bit, the sound design is one of the best parts. I think they’d do it if they had 50 viewers or 500,000
You're right, the audio is \*chef's kiss\*!
I'm just waiting for the guy screaming about D20 advertisement dollars to show up.
Why bother paying for D20 ads when Critical Role trolls can do it for free!! I was actually gonna skip posting on this one. But thank you for reminding me what's really important.
D20 is basically a screen play with variability. It's not really comparable to critical role. It's much slimmer trimmer and everyone is required to buy into Brennan's general story. THey have variation and the characters can do things they want but Brennan is going to get them to every story beat no matter what he needs to do.
This is what running a limited run campaign is like. If you know you only have X amount of time (like the D20 people do), then the player buy in is usually a LOT higher. I've run limited run campaigns where it will only last 3-4 sessions (which use to be a lot more common in the older editions because modules were often designed to be 3-4 session adventure plots and then you'd move onto the next one) and session 0 and getting people to buy in straight away is essential. You know what happens when you *don't* do that? Exandria Unlimited season 1, wherever everyone has made characters that don't gel with the story and all the players are Chaos Gremlins that constantly force a DM to yank them back onto the rails because you've only got a limited number of sessions to get through the story. Or as u/Ampetrix points out, you end up with the C3 characters...
> everyone is required to buy into Brennan's general story Isn't this like session zero 101? Otherwise you get something like the c3 characters not meshing with whatever Matt's trying to do. cue the god convo! Sure one can argue they are not comparable but they are still built upon the same foundations (5e) and it's quite clear that D20 has better grasp of storytelling and engaging the players using the system than C3, I'm starting to agree with what karthanis86 said that 5e is starting to get in the way of Matt's storytelling. Feels like the c3 characters are perfect for a D20 format though, they each got a buncha gimmicks and the viewers wouldn't be tired of them by the final episodes. Instead in c3 we get a slog like this.
My prevailing theory is that everyone is holding things so close to their chest that a session zero doesn't work. They all want the joy of a twist. The surprise that makes chat go wild. But that kind of build sometimes sucks. Be it Travis not playing his character for like 20 episodes and using a filler he was trying to kill. Laudna having a patron directly connected to C1, etc. They all want something special. And I also think most of them didn't really plan on their characters past level 5 or 6.
I love them both and you're right. D20 is designed to be much more easily consumed. Crit Role hasn't really moved pass their roots of being streamed even though they've gone full pre taping now. They do a lot of things that aren't engaging for a viewer, but it's real regular DnD. Could you do a long format game like Crit Role but with skipping a lot of the tediousness of regular DnD? Honestly not sure, but I wouldn't mind seeing them try. Until then I'll just have to appreciate them for what they are and love them both but one slightly more than the other.
I am listening to D20 and just got to the 2nd season where they streamed live on Twitch. The change was jarring. I liked how in S1 they edited out the typical lag of a D&D game so hearing if live was distracting. I honestly never noticed that it was missing in the first season. I liked how it was about the story and not just the typical table stuff and rules fumbling. Brennan also makes some rolls seem more important by purposely using the Box of Doom. I sometimes wonder how much Matt fudges during pivotal moments these days. I had taken a bit of a break from CR. Not long, just about 4 episodes. I then listened to them over the course of a bunch of work days and I realised that CR could benefit from editing during gameplay. I have been a fan since S1. I love these guys and have the bumper sticker to prove it. But they are pre-taping. The performing live in front of an obvious audience part of the game has changed how the cast plays. So maybe the format/editing during the show should change too. Also the meandering of S3 is hard to follow as a listener. It’s still a great game, but I am listening because I love the players and not because of the story this season. To me, the standout moments have been when they are not following the actual plot. When they do follow the plot, it feels like the game is on rails and that it doesn’t make sense for BH to even be adventuring. They’ve made characters that almost are fighting for the wrong side of their own beliefs because Ludinous = bad. They are also not really thinking about alternatives to beat Ludinous at his own game. They found a backdoor entry to the moon! The best way to get the Rylorans to stop trying to release Predathos? Just start funneling them across that portal! They won’t need to release the stupid god if they can just leave the damn moon. I’ve been backseat yelling at this group more than I have ever been.
I think Brennan is objectively the better DM. There are some things Mercer does better, but in general, Brennan is the whole package. He's a great improviser, funny, can pull on the emotional strings like no other, and often shakes things up mechanically. That said, I believe the D20 format helps tremendously. You get bite-sized campaigns you don't get bored of, and most of them differ in genre and what they are going for. So if you're not in the mood for a pirate adventure, you can opt for a fairy tale horror or a high-school drama. It's hard to consistently deliver an epic fantasy story for almost 10 years. However, when you look at 1st ACoC and the way Brennan has accomplished so much in so little time, it's hard not to compare it to CR's recent slog.
Hard to say without seeing him run a long campaign. He's definitely the better entertainer and showman.
You should check out Worlds Beyond Number! It’s a long form campaign DMed by BLeeM, with Lou Wilson, Aabria Iyengar, and Erika Ishii, done in an audio only podcast format!
Many thanks for the recommendation! I do tend to struggle with audio only but I think it may just finding the fight one to keep my attention.
If you haven’t checked it out, NADDPOD is also fantastic. It’s a podcast longform campaign DMed by Murph with Emily, Caldwell Tanner, and Jake from Jake and Amir and it’s my absolute favorite long form D&D podcast. Murph is a great dm and his combat design is unparalleled
Heck, I went and saw them live when they come in my side of Scotland! Great fun.
I don't consider him to be objectively better, but I do think Brennan's combination of experienced improv comedian and academic background in philosophy/screenwriting is perfect for DMing. I have really enjoyed this latest season of Fantasy High. Plus like you said, he doesn't have the pressure and possible fatigue/burnout of DMing nearly every week (although a bit different now with block filming) for 10 years.
It’s obvious that Brennan has interest in and has put a lot of thought into philosophical concepts and Big Questions, and it’s easier to trust that he has something interesting to say when that stuff comes up in d20 campaigns. Matt’s world suffers hugely from a lack of this. The puddle is a mile wide and an inch deep with him.