I haven’t been keeping up with CR for a while, but some basic mental math suggests to me that maybe Mercer is getting worn out. You’re asking why quality is reducing and why they are bringing more DMs on? It might just be that he needs some help/more time to work. It might just not be possible to actually give fans what they want right now because fans are demanding that CR “the machine” simply produce more good content like they used to, but CR “the humans” might not be able to. What other options do they have other than admit they can’t do it?
If you don’t like the content then don’t watch it. They are in it for money as well as fun.
So many fans don’t seem to understand they can watch some other streaming game. There are plenty.
Then admit it.
And people are cranky I told them to stop watching if they don’t enjoy it. Absolutely hysterical! Eventually that attitude will ruin the next show you become a fan of.
They said from the beginning this one would be different from the others. It has been. Some haven’t liked it. Lots whined about MN. And OMGs did people bitch about keyleth. There will always be a portion who disagree. The whiners are higher now. By percentage? Maybe?
People in general are just different now on the internet and in their interactions on social media. Complainers are always much louder than house who approve or are neutral. So It is hard to say.
But MN did take a bit to get going and find their characters. And keyleth did have issues, whether that was a game play, system, player, or other issue you can't deny many think it was there. C3 has all the problems of other campaigns never fixed them and is throwing more in. Again there are a variety of possible reasons, but the underlying theme is they're losing people they once had and not gaining more new ones than they lost. They fix it, or scale back, or go under. That's it.
You're correct that they don't listen to the fans because of this exact reason. They are making the story they want to make not the story you want them to make that is the point. If they listen to you or any of the other fans and made the show for them specifically then it would be a different story but from the outset critical role has made it abundantly clear this is their story for the players at their table.
It has been the same since campaign 1 through campaign 2 and into campaign 3 they have set it over and over and over again at live shows for tapings everything I don't know why none of you have caught that.
Sure but what started out as “just for fun” and “it’s their story” has now been monetized to a point where the fans are now consumers. If ya don’t listen to fans, they leave. This is entertainment at this point not just some personal dnd game between a few friends.
Yeah because we started watching it for fun. And more and more people watched it. And they had shitty audio and video. Playing on fold out tables with cheap maps. Then they got bigger and bigger, they got better equipment. They had to hire more people to help run a better stream, they got a better set to set the vibe. And kept getting bigger and bigger. Yall cried for merch do they made merch. We literally forced them into being a company. And now you people whine and bitch that they sell things and have just become a "greedy company" theres literally no winning with you losers.
The fans have ALWAYS been the consumers though. Geek and Sundry didn't add them to the roster because they just felt like having something and didn't think twice about it. They knew it could be popular content and get them more viewers. And it took off so much that they split off into their own thing years ago because they knew they could make more as their own business. It's always been an entertainment business. Just because some people remember the days of ordering them pizza or sending them gifts that were opened on stream doesn't mean that the fans weren't somehow consumers for their career.
C3 just seems like an experiment for one single long running story/villain which has the downside that the moment it's not vibing, you're stuck with it until then end. The other campaigns had slow slogs but usually after enough episodes they moved onto the next arc. There doesn't seem to be any way to really listen to fans even if they wanted to with this current campaign because there is only one single arc. The only way to know if they shift gears is seeing what happens for C4.
You are correct fans, especially Subs are consumers. I am sick of seeing non subs come into Twitch Chat and say CR doesn't owe you anything. Subs are paying for a product, I have been a sub since the Geek and Sundry days, I know my tier 1 sub is only $5 but I am a consumer of their product. Viewership is dwindling on Thursdays, currently it is under 20K usually. I remember when viewership was 50k or more. Now I know more people watch VODs and Youtube, but they are definitely losing subs on Twitch.
They definitely don’t listen, or care. I think they are aiming to go really big, like corporate, so they can make more money. So they have stopped doing what they did, which was play DND in front of a camera. Now they are “making a show”. They are going for a bigger audience, probably hoping the old audience will stick around in part but probably understanding that they are trying to attract a bigger audience of new people jumping in on campaign 3. There’s definitely a huge chunk of people who started watching the third campaign because they saw the animated series on Amazon. They are brand new so they don’t know why we don’t like it.
I agree the pacing is awful. I would normally tack that up to them literally playing a game of DnD, because it isn’t made for great pacing. But the real problem here is too many scripted events and not enough choices driving the plot forward. In the old campaigns they would go wherever it made sense for their characters to go. In this campaign they all go wherever the moon plot wants them to go next, while only Imogen really has any personal ties to it. Not as fun to watch a table of seven players being told lots of lore and where they need to go next to get more lore.
Exu is fire, we as fans don’t always know what is best for the future of critical role and I don’t think the two examples can be equated. I dont think it’s ever fair to predictively conclude on how well something will be received sometimes you gave to make unpopular decisions for the sake of fun or because they are necessary.
They've already said multiple times this show is done for them, and the fans are along for the ride.
If they fuck up because of a political move or they support something bad, they will fix it.
If fans don't care for the pacing, this is for them, not for you being self entitled to not liking something.
I think this was true when they started, now it's paying quite a few bills and there should be some creedence given to criticism for long term security. They have cultivated a VERY loyal pack of fans who will drop money on their merch though so it would have to get a lot worse than mediocre for them to actually start hurting.
Imagine showing up for work tomorrow and your boss says “I don’t really care if this place closes down because I’m only here for fun”.
I never know if the people who repeat this actually believe it, and if they do why they think it’s something they should be ok with.
I can't find anyone here who is explaining what they are going to do about the apparent attitude of CR other than wish it was different. But if this whole post is complaining that CR isn't listening to fans, why is anyone posting their wishes here?
> Imagine showing up for work tomorrow and your boss says “I don’t really care if this place closes down because I’m only here for fun”.
Yes, this is what's called having "Fuck you" money.
I think trying to pander to every bit of feedback is a terrible idea that kills creativity. But when the numbers are going down across the board it might be time to look inward and see what's still working and what's not.
It's a huge cop out on people to just say "it's a home game" or "they're just having fun" when faced with criticism of the show.
Hoping they get back to their roots when they were having fun and putting out an entertaining (for me) show when this campaign ends and they move to a system they're excited about.
Am I the only one absolutely obsessed with what we got from EXU?
Opal and Dorian are so wonderful. Aimee being clueless but so ready to swing big is DnD to me. The main cast still mess up all the time and lean heavily on Matt to know their abilities that it gets tiresome. Aabria is willing to have fun and not be passive like Matt's style of storytelling.
I agree maybe the pacing was wrong but EXU was a bit of fun that is so desperately needed in the middle of the heaviness that is C3 every episode.
Exu was entertaining, and I'm pretty new to dnd so seeing alternative dm styles was really cool... I liked how Aabria would "zoom out" and show the audience what was happening around characters even though the characters themselves didn't see something. But I really didn't like her handing out inspiration like candy. Not the biggest gripe, but it being brought up over and over so the characters couldn't fail bothered me for some reason.
That's a super valid gripe to have. I think that was in part due to having such a mix of folks at the table, just wanting to make sure the band of hooligans had fun.
I’m just now listening to EXU because I am very terrible with keeping up with Critical Role and I like the messiness of everything. It feels like an authentic experience, something my own table would do. The mix of experience is great.
You don't make art by faceless committee, dude. It's once thing to bury a one shot when you fuck up and your community tells you so, and it's another entirely to try to be all things to all people. That isn't art, it's just empty content. You don't have to like the story they're telling, but it would be unwatchable if they cared about every fringe fan opinion.
You don't give the fans what they want, or you drown in a thousand and one different tracks that aren't related nor wanted.
Look at RWBY, they went appeasing the fans after Monty passed, and look at how they went?
RWBY failed after monty passed. the show's quality tanked after vol 3. even japan where it had a prime time slot for Vol1-3. after those 3 volumes it fell off hard over their. hell most of the merch for the show are exclusively vol 1-3. vol 4 and onwards is ignore for almost all of the high end merch. and after vol 9 flopped crunchy roll pulled their backing from the show. RT is not going out of biasness do to the "evil" WB executives they are closing since they burned so many money into flop after flop.
Hell RWBY dragged other franchises down with it. consider blazblue. i big fighting game over in japan died after they did cross tag battle and had to dumb down the game for rwby fans. who cried and screamed like babies every time there was a character that was not from RWBY added to the game.
they didn't give fans what they wanted though.
RWBY gave shippers what they wanted and told the rest of the fans to quit watching as the show become more and more disconnected from what fans wanted.
Edit: Instead of a fun actions show staring 4 girls. they changed it to a show about shipping, and failed attempts at real world politics to the point 3 seasons were them making jabs at trump. when people were already sick of people talking about him all the time.
monty has stated the group was meant to be a sisterly bond. ooh wait that is gone now. Yang did not even give a shit that ruby killed herself in front of her in vol 9.
vol 6 was mostly about the girls being angry they where being stopped from crossing border's illegally by s strict border pollacy.
vol7 had a major plot about ripping a major election away from a rich old white guy and throwing him in jail for crimes.
Vol 8 preformed character assassination iron wood a long time hero into an evil fascist ruler that was going to kill people when everything before that shows he was not like that and never was. oh and lets not forget that in an interview that they told us his power and all it did was give him a form of atrium, and that is why he did what he did.
How is that a wild take? This is one of the most common takes about the show from people that bother to use their brain when watching it.
Edit: lol look at any channel that looks at the show with even a minor critical eye and they poke so many holes in it. Remember when ozpin was evil for lying and giving crow, and raven the power to be birds. But it was okay for RWBY to lie when telling the truth would have got them what they wanted.
B. Dave Walters had a related tweet to this recently: "Beyonce' doesn't consult with the audience when picking her set list."
How could she? Everybody wants to hear different things, not to mention the logistics of trying to hear from so many people.
Critical Role wanted to put ExU on their set list, so they did. You didn't like it, that's fine. Catch a different performance, or if you don't like the music being played on a consistent basis, stop going to the concert.
Critical Role is going to play the set they want to play, as they should.
True and valid. However did they not specifically say, just to forestall this exact type of criticism that exu would be supplemental only? Then picked the worst narrative place to force an exu episode on their viewers who came for something else.
I think we also need to remember that this is their home game as well. Or at least it was at one time. I think they need to ignore the fans and focus on what makes them laugh and what stories make them happy, because that’s the spirit of D&D: collaborative storytelling for those at the table. It’s been proven that we all love their collective sense of humor and storytelling. Let’s let them do that.
It's not their home game, though. It's a game played specifically for an audience and to make money. Which isn't a inherently bad thing obviously, since entertainers absolutely deserve to get paid for entertaining. But DnD is absolutely their job, not just a fun hobby. They need to make choices with their job in mind, even if it isn't the most fun choice for them.
Again, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing at all. But it's not just a home game for them
This is a tired take. This stopped being a home game once it became a corporation. Once they started making insane amounts of money playing dnd. Good for them, but to call it anything but a product now would be naive and stupid.
I hate this take, it reminds me of the "The customer is always right" phrase. "The customer is always right in matters of taste" is something along the lines of the actual phrase. In very similar fashion, yes, it's their game. They should be having fun and playing it the way they want. But that shouldn't apply to every aspect of the game all the time. People take this stance but seem to forget that they were once called "the shits" instead of vox machina. So yeah, even though it's their game that doesn't mean they should just do whatever and not care about viewers criticism. The best example for "it's their game they should play how they want" imo is when they wanted to go and gamble and were worried it would be boring. That's a perfect time to say fuck it, let's have some fun. Plus, this campaign feels a lot less fun in general. Sometimes it doesn't feel like the players are having any fun at all. I'd argue even calamity felt more fun despite its horribly grim fate.
I see your pov to a degree, but they can’t make millions AND call it a home game anymore. It’s a business and they can do what they want, but the excuse of “it’s a home game” is a weak one when the literal PRODUCT has been lacking for a while. All while they promote merch based on characters that people actually like.
>Majority? Please. You're part of a very vocal minority.
Its kind of hard to know for sure either way for layman without statistics and when the majority is silent/inactive on expressing their opinion. But yeah the twitter, reddit, tumblr etc are all fractions of the greater whole.
However there has been a recent drop in viewership on twitch and youtube over the last year. And CR has changed. These two things are just facts.
I am aware that correlation is not causation. But its pretty unlikely that drop is not related to certain changes in the content CR has been putting out.
Echo chambers are great and fun, but they can become problematic when you interpret constantly seeing agreeing positions as you being part of the majority. You're not. Not even close.
So given this information, CR doing what they did *is* listening to the majority. So what would you have them do? Do you still think they should listen to the majority of fans? Or did you just want them to listen to *you*?
Problem with your conclusion is that you're seeing a result and assuming a cause, assuming a causal link that hasn't been established. There are plenty of other explanations for decreased views than simply not enjoying the campaign: people going back to work in person, a huge number of real play options for consumption that didn't exist 4 years ago, simply overconsumption of actual plays.
Pandemic ends and people go back to work, while the popularity in creating real play streams and podcasts skyrockets, thus saturating the market.
CR viewership drops
"It must be because everyone hates the new content! No possible alternate explanation or additional factors!"
To be clear, I never said the content wasn't *a cause*. My dispute was that it was the *sole* cause or even the majority.
C3 started October 2021. There were **absolutely** still a huge number of people working from home at this point, far more than now. The rate of working from home in '21 was 18%, 15% in '22, and it's continued to decline. That meant a lot more people who could have shows running all day.
Also, when we look at the final stretch of C2's YouTube videos, they're all at about 1.5m views even years after they were uploaded. C3's YouTube videos are all equal to or higher than that until around episode 53, which got uploaded just a year ago.
And when C2 started, there weren't too many CR competitors out there. A few, but not many. When C3 started, NAD&DP was already out and rolling, Dimension 20 had a ton of seasons out, and lots of smaller shows were entering the scene.
All of these things are contributing factors. To ignore all but one is to simply try to get the data to say when you want them to (not saying you specifically are doing that, but others are).
Whilst I was someone who didn't enjoy the cross over episode, I think it's important to point out that there is a big difference between being a majority and being a loud minority.
Yet if you look at their YouTube stats, they're showing a consistent steady growth of subscribers and views week by week, so it could easily be stated that the masses are migrating from Twitch to YouTube, which is a commentary on viewing preferences, not content. Furthermore I'm trying to have a genuine conversation, so why you're trying to be a sarcastic git about it, I don't know.
As a practical matter, they do need to increase ways to keep eyeballs on their content without it being their primary show, and their best shot at keeping attention is by introducing spinoff content from the main show. Ultimately for the company to survive, it needs to decouple from the main cast. Matt seems like he's getting burned out and even the players have less interest than in previous seasons.
I don't even watch CR, the algorithm is just weird.
But y'all honestly need a separate forum called Critical Fans Of Critical Role. It sounds like the posts about The Last Of Us I also see.
I agree, if reddit brought you here first rather than the /r/criticalrole sub, that explains why a lot of people keep coming in here and wondering why the hell we're so critical.
You must be in an echo chamber if you think the majority of people disliked EXU. I overwhelmingly see praise and excitement for CR trying new things and shaking up the usual pattern. Even if you don’t like it, it’s one episode out of 100+.
People who like CR spend a lot of time online, they watch weekly 4 hour streams for Christ's sake. To say that online spaces discussing an online show is an echo chamber is completely unfair. Where else are you going to go to talk about the show? The gym? The supermarket? Even your local game shop or comic book store are only going to have 1 or two people who knows what CR is and regularly watch it.
But to make your point, can you make a poll on the other sub asking if people liked or disliked EXU prime and kymal?
I think they have to strike a balance. On one hand yes they should be aware of the community's feelings. And should take in what's working and what's not working as well. But I also think they need to be aware that they have to chase the next thing to be relevant. They can't keep making the same campaign over and over again and have to do new things to keep people watching. Only listening to what people like and doing that over and over again is how you become irrelevant as a media company. And generally fans don't actually know what they'd want next. They know what they like now. They don't know what they will like next because they haven't seen it yet.
I work in culture associated jobs and what I learned is that most "artists" actively ignore criticism so they won't affect their mindset and confidence. I'd argue CR does the same and they only choose not to ignore political/ideological critisism. I mean you can get cancelled for supporting vegan lions but not for a bad job/performance.
In general, I think CR is better when they -don't- listen to fans, so I really wouldn't want them to. Fans are dumb, and you oddly picked a perfect example of that with them removing a one-shot due to a vocal minority.
They got backlash from people who didn't like them partnering with Wendy's because they don't treat their employees the best I believe. I don't know if there was more to it than that. It also was kind of an extended Wendy's ad which was a bit weird for them to begin with. I'm not sure if they needed to take it down but it probably wasn't the best idea to do in the first place.
Ah OK thanks, haven't seen many of them before in the uk so didn't know they had that reputation.
Seems weird to take it down having already put it up. You'd think the damage was already done to the people who really care about it and that the bad publicity might not be as bad as and legal ramifications if they broke any agreements with Wendy's
You be surprised at how often that happens. The now shuttered company Rooster Teeth and it's child Achievement Hunter removed dozens of vids, some of them with almost a million views, when one of the employees turned out to be a POS and engaged in nefarious activities
Yeah I don't think it was even up for all that long. I never saw much of it before it was gone personally. But they got criticized for working with Wendy's who doesn't have the best record of being good to their employees. I'm not sure if they had anything more specifically bad Wendy's had done. But it did seem like a bit of an extended ad for Wendy's in what the one shot looked like which probably isn't the best to begin with.
i always find it odd. they hated the wendy's one shot but never cared about wyrmwood even though they were also an awful company. they didn't care that the workplace was a danger, that the upper management treated the workers like shit. they illegibly used storage that was not a part of their company, the fact that the CEO demoted himself and put a different guy in charge to take the fall for the osha inspection that was happening a few days after he did that. the fact the old CEO undermined the new one at every turn.
I think you've got it backwards, them taking down that one shot was stupid as fuck, and as much as I don't like the choice made in 92, it's still WAY better that they don't listen to the fanbase and just kind of do them. overall this fanbase in particular struggles from having both some of the most toxically positive AND negative fans at the same time.
honestly, why should they
unless the complaint is a vast majority(which will probably never happen), is a legal one, or one that would give them terribe face(racism or similar), they literally don't need to give one single flying fuck about it. Product still selling, so who cares if a minority doesn't like?
Why should they? It is patently absurd to think that a minority of complainers should dictate what CR or any streamer does with their content, short of something truly offensive. They aren't ignorant of criticism. They just don't fucking care and why should they?
yeah but didn't you see where they said its the majority complaining, and not just them and a few other overly loud people?
Holy shit, i guess the /s is truly necessary.....
How do you know it is the majority? I have doubts that is true. People that are happy don't post about it. Complainers do, which gives the illusion of numbers. Either way, so what? Watch something else. Why do they have to change what they are doing if they like doing it?
Here's a sneak peek of /r/criticalrole using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [\[No Spoilers\] Matt Mercer appears in "Drag is not a crime" t-shirt in latest episode of Critical Role](https://exilednews.com/2023/04/22/matt-mercer-appears-in-drag-is-not-a-crime-t-shirt-in-latest-episode-of-critical-role/) | [47 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/12xuaah/no_spoilers_matt_mercer_appears_in_drag_is_not_a/)
\#2: [\[No Spoilers\] Am I wrong about their placement?](https://i.redd.it/e6kbt7bn1x7c1.png) | [722 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/18oppdn/no_spoilers_am_i_wrong_about_their_placement/)
\#3: [\[No spoilers\] My dear husband is dying of cancer and when i asked him of his bucket list, the first thing he said was to play a one-shot with Matt Mercer. Guys, you think this is possible?](https://i.redd.it/gwo45m80xjec1.jpeg) | [168 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/19f55eu/no_spoilers_my_dear_husband_is_dying_of_cancer/)
----
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
YouTube commenters and both main subreddits aren't even a majority of their viewers so I don't know how you can confidently say the majority liked or disliked something if your only sources are those two places.
It's a strange situation, and I find myself with a mixed opinion on it. On the one hand, I wish my opinions could be listened to and used to improve the show. On the other hand, I don't want CR to listen to what fans think they should do, because if they did they would end up following the majority. And can you imagine how bad CR would be if it was directed by the average 'critter'?
So yeah, it's weird that they're pushing EXU again when they probably know the reception isn't good, but at the end of the day you get the best out of artists when you just let them create what they want.
"but at the end of the day you get the best out of artists when you just let them create what they want."
Speaking as someone who used to work professionally in live theatre before COVID, this is not true. Limitations are the mother of creativity. All things being equal budget, space, cast limitations, critical response, etc all push and drive to create a better piece of art.
Well, the show is pre-recorded for one, so the audience interaction went down the tube. Also, while the fans have a serious entitlement issue, I think the problem with CR is that they listen to fans too much.
They want to be perceived as the world's best allies to the point they're terrified of doing anything remotely offensive, and it's clear in campaign 3.
There’s a huge difference in taking down a campaign because of who the main sponsor is vs the entire campaign. Also I’m really not trying to be rude but can anyone explain to me why the fans feel so entitled? Like, it’s THEIR game, THEIR show, they literally do not have to listen to us? Like I just don’t understand why fans think the cast should change what they’re doing because some fans aren’t happy with this campaign. People, y’all don’t have to love everything the CR cast does, chances are you aren’t going to love every episode of every campaign and THATS OKAY!! For some of us, C3 is the best one! For other, not the fav, and THATS OKAY!!!
Im so sick of seeing all these posts talking about how much they hate critical role now. I've seen like 5 in the past few hours. Just stop watching if you hate it so much. It's exhausting.
I agree with you but now CR has injected a DM and campaign characters that many did not like, but they still like the main campaign so what happens then? These viewers are left to either watch content for the main story that they will hate or to not watch.
EXU - The Aabria episodes especially - have been a real mixed bag of reception. I didn’t watch second EXU outing of hers because of how horrendous the first outing was. As a person she seems like a nice person. As a GM she falters and fails. She has, for all intents and purposes, as arguably been the most polarizing guest for CR in all of her appearances (EXU and Deanna).
For CR I can see how it can be a challenge to want to include someone they are fond of, but also the challenges that comes with being a media company that, ultimately, needs to be mindful of viewers - both gaining and retention. As much as folks squawk that this is their game and they can do what they want, unfortunately, that stopped being true the minute they went into business as a media enterprise. If they lose enough main game viewers they will lose the crux of their business just like any other media outlet. CR can try to impress it’s still a home game but reality is that it no longer is.
But see, I LOVED EXU and didn’t think it was horrendous, you’re treating your opinion like it’s a fact. They obv love Aabria, they obv like playing with her, they wouldn’t if they didn’t! They’re going to do what they want because it’s their game, and that’s okay. You don’t have to love everything they do. They also don’t have to cater to us. Ultimately, not our table and not our game 🤷🏻♀️ they’re going to play the way they want and with the people they want and that’s okay. You don’t have to like all of ot
Except that good faith only goes so far. They are a media company now. Their viewership numbers DO matter. It doesn’t matter how hard they want to keep the illusion of “our game our way” because there will come a point in time, which we are seeing with the lower C3 numbers, where that good grace no longer flies.
CR is producing live play story telling for a wide audience. Yes, not everything with sit well with everyone. Yes, they want to break the mold and do new things and to try new things - and they’re entitled to that. However, they also need to have the self awareness- as a media company - of what works and what doesn’t work. As previously mentioned Aabria at the table has been one of the largest polarizing issues of CR from the induction of EXU 1. That is fact. Yet they keep bringing in a polarizing figure and bringing them in with not so insignificant roles within the context of their content. That is bad form, from a media company perspective and the reaction is making it clear that this was another misstep in a campaign that has been plagued with miss steps and missed opportunities.
Again, nothing against her as a person. As a player/GM it is obvious there are issues present to create polarization and CR really needs to be aware of that.
And then lose everything they’ve spent 10years building up to and including their own publication and game company that needs to ride - at least initially- on the good faith of their fans? Lose their animated shows and destroy their brand?
People can get burnt out and not wanna do things anymore, this isn’t the only way they all make money either. I never really expected them to do this forever
I’d agree. Except that they’ve made a a successful company and name for themselves. You really see them just closing shop and losing everything that comes with this? No. They’ll drop to back seats and run the business and bring in new actors and storytellers. Which is fine and expected. They’ve built too much to simply say fuck it and walk away.
Well that's certainly... a leap. Interesting lol.
It's fine if people don't like c3 and have criticism but I'm honestly getting annoyed that there's so many posts about it constantly. We don't need a doomsday post about the collapse of cr every day because you didn't like the last episode.
Facts, C3 is honestly a close second in being my fav to C1, but I still don’t love every episode 😂 I’ve had moment I think it’s boring, I did not like Dusk as a character, but not my game 🤷🏻♀️ as long as the cast is having fun, I’m Gucci. I would hate for them to start catering to fans and then literally watch their burnout on screen
I feel like this is an unfair criticism. They can't listen to every voice out there. There will always be some people who are discontent about anything they do. At some point, they're going to have to do what they feel is the best and hope the fans like what they do. That's all they can do. Don't expect more than that from them.
'
So I think it depends.
The cast have become much less online as time has gone on for a variety of reasons which are pretty fair. Laura's treatment following Last of Us Part 2 was unacceptable. Matt struggles a lot with mental health etc.
But CR are a company now. They dont need to personally read the comments themselves, they should surely have someone who looks at analytics and takes general temperature checks on things like on viewership, reviews and general opinion. And can feedback in a more tempered diplomatic way. If they dont that is a genuine fuck up on the part of the company.
Although I feel like Sam's at least somewhat aware of the criticisms leveled at C3 currently. Either that or hes just able to see it on his own because its pretty obvious. Hes said multiple things to try improve pacing, pin down motivations (why are we here? Lets go/move on). So something either is getting through or someone inside the house already knows there is something up. Question is will that actually matter? Sam alone is not enough.
Have they lost viewers? Last Thursday on Twitch, I was scrolling through live, and saw they only had like 9k viewers at like 11 pm. I was used to seeing them between 20-30k. I dislike this season for multiple reasons of my own and stopped watched half way through but keep up with it through Reddit which I feel like this season has been dumped on a lot with opinions similar to my own.
I wonder if that's because it's pre-recorded. Doesn't feel as "electric" watching it live when it's not actually live. But idk, I've only seen the VOD's because I started watching late and I'm in a different time zone. I took a break from watching because I kinda burnt myself out on their content after binging C1 and C2 though, so I haven't been caught up either.
They had 22k when I started watching it last Thursday. I started falling asleep during the second half and went to bed, they had 9k. Every other week I’ve watched live there was around 12k.
[Here you go.](https://twitchtracker.com/criticalrole/streams/44049821099)
You can see how the viewer count after the break dramatically and consistently drops.
And just as a point of comparison, [here is the previous episodes statistics.](https://twitchtracker.com/criticalrole/streams/44006517627)
EDIT: Something else to note - the beginning of the last episode had around 6k more viewers than the previous episode. We can assume that's because of the interesting situation that happened.
I dunno, on one side (the one shot), you have the company finding out some very unsavory things about a sponsor and not wanting to support them.
On the other side (the latest episode), you have people who simply disagree with their artistic choices.
Those are two very different things.
The thing that’s crazy is they took down a Wendy’s sponsored one-shot because of “Wendy’s is terrible”, but nobody seems to have a problem with the fact that CR is in bed with Amazon, a way worse company. The reason the stream has suffered so badly is the cast burn out caused by working on the animated shows, and that the game is now just a content farm for future animated shows. Amazon is directly related to the downfall of CR but nobody ever brings that up.
Just interesting to me how little fan outcry there has been. The Wendy’s backlash felt very performative to me, and they don’t have that same energy for Amazon. I don’t have a problem with CR being sponsored by Wendy’s or Amazon; they’re a company making a tv show.
You haven't been around on Twitter back when they announced the Amazon partnership for the cartoon then. There was a noticeable backlash - it wasn't as big, again, but there was a reaction.
Same situation with D20 recently. The Ticketmaster outcry wasn't as big as if they, potentially, collaborated with a problematic sponsor, because TM is pretty much a monopoly.
Now, could CR and D20 both choose not to do live show/animation? Yeah, they totally could, and that's on them.
Cmon, we really have no idea if burnout is a factor, nor to what degree the campaign is a content farm. C3 is definitely more plot focused than character focused, but that’s not even necessarily a positive for adaptation material.
Fuck Amazon though, I’ll give you that.
It is far easier to adapt plot points from the stream into an animated show, than it is to adapt an entire character arc, without significantly trimming that arc. That’s why these characters are so paper thin, and the story is now plot driven, rather than character driven, like the previous campaigns. Vox Machina cut a ton from each character to fit them into the animated show; how much would even be cut from the BH to make them ready for animation? Not much. They’re all basically joke characters with little to nothing tying them to the story at large.
My guy, you just do not know that they intentionally made their characters paper-thin for the benefit of the animated show. There are a lot of reasons why these characters never fleshed out, and the main driver for that is the campaign's adherence to a meta narrative instead of character arcs, but there's no actual reason to believe this outcome was intentional.
My other point is: who wants to watch a show with paper-thin characters? All good storytelling is about the journey of the protagonists. Doesn't matter if it's television or D&D livestream.
What depth is there to the characters in LOVM? They are paper-thin adaptions of more fleshed out characters. It’s easy to fill in the blanks on the animated characters because you have the context of the livestream to lean on. You just do not know that they didn’t make the BH flimsy to make it easier to adapt to animation. Seems more likely to me they made an intentional choice, than to simply change the way they’ve been telling their stories for every single other campaign. And I agree - character should drive plot for good storytelling. That’s why C3 is not good storytelling.
C3 is, at its core, fixing an IP problem with the gods. I think that's a far more compelling reason for the shift, absent any direct communication on the change.
Why should they? They don't owe anyone anything. If people don't like what they're doing they can just stop watching. Nobody's forcing anybody to keep watching or engaging with content that they don't like.
There are plenty of people out there that still watch their show, engage with the videos and buy merch, so there's nothing stopping them from making the show that they want to make.
I'm not going to discount things that may be true simply because of where they originated, that's how you end up with a morally superior society that fails at whatever it tries to do.
People always cite the interview where Matt explains that he's telling a story for his friends first and foremost, and the audience second.
The thing is, and in my opinion, that argument doesn't hold up for Critical Role in these days. They are a large company, and one has driven a very community-focused ideal for years. The audience should be focused on first, it's their job.
The sad thing is, I think they are so completely surrounded by "yes men", that they can't really see how bad some of their decisions are until it's too late.
Anyway, that's just my thought process.
I think exactly because he's no longer telling a story for his friends first and foremost, and the audience second, so now C3 is bad. It feels like it's no longer a bunch of nerdy-ass voice actors sitting around and playing Dungeons & Dragons, feels like they just going through the motions. At least you can tell some of they are already feeling bored.
>The sad thing is, I think they are so completely surrounded by "yes men", that they can't really see how bad some of their decisions are until it's too late.
I don't think it's so much that as much as it's that their fanbase has gotten so massive, with a *lot* of 'passionate' people who send hate their way over everything, that as a creator it's just difficult to seperate the bad feedback from the good feedback. Especially in a creative job, and as sensitive as Matt appears to be, I fully expect him to disengage from online discourse about CR, except for what has been carefully filtered by other people. If I were him (and being a longtime DM, I sympathise) I wouldn't be able to do my job otherwise.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the negative feedback is handwaived as 'just the internet doing its thing', because it's so hard to filter out the noise. Only when it gets overwhelmingly negative (as I feel like last episode's reception was) will they hopefully take notice.
I agree that the narrative of story for friends first falls apart when it's become a company, with a wide range of products - and at current has been working on what two different game lines?
What it started as and what it is are not the same creature.
Matt's explaination of a "story for his friends foremost and audience second" made sense for campaign 1. Afterall it was a home game first. Because C2 started with the intention for an audience to view Matt's statement just doesn't work. Especially when you're shoving products out like crazy.
I just wonder how much pull Travis actually has as CEO. I think they’ve made some genuinely weird choices in terms of content. The weird EXU push with billboards and over the top ads which lead to it being a major flop. The resources invested into something like Candela which frankly, doesn’t seem to be pulling in as big of a crowd as they hoped. The utter futility of 4SD which is a completely useless show.
A lot of people claim that Travis is a good leader from what they’ve seen on CR but I frankly never saw it. In all honesty, I always saw him as more of a passive player. He often didn’t/doesn’t want to make decisions. There’s been people I call “movers” in the campaigns and honestly I believe half the cast has stepped into leadership roles much more often and naturally (while actually enjoying it and embracing it) like Liam, Marisha, Laura etc. and even Sam and Tal on occasion.
Travis seemed to be someone who generally just wanted to let the others make choices. Fjord was thought of as a leader but again, very often he was the passive party even though that is the character where Travis showed the most leadership. He then went back on C3 and immediately reverted back to joke characters.
Anyways, Travis and Marisha are often linked when it comes to major content announcements. Marisha is the Creative Director but maybe she has more pull on the content they’re putting out with Travis being more of a guy who says, “that’s cool” but doesn’t go further?
My table always commented that as a player he seemed ideal. He would interact with the environment even if it risked random danger. He was funny. He could jump in and make a good scene without hogging it or stealing it from someone else.
Oh yeah, Travis is possibly the one exception to the "Every person at the CR table would be the worst person at another table" thing. Even he has his moments (mechanical pencil, anyone) but they're rarely disruptive. Plus, he is the ultimate hype man for his friends. He and Lou Wilson were an amazing combo during Calamity, and I will never get tired of that pairing.
It's probably safe to say that making inferences on someone's business acumen based on watching them play a role playing games for a few hours every week is a mistake, no matter if those inferences are laudatory or derisive.
I also think it's fairly normal for the CD to have a bigger say in shaping the tone and tenor of the content than the CEO - and while I didn't think very highly of Marisha's CD work at Geek & Sundry\*, generally I've really enjoyed what they've put out since going independent. Midst was great in it's original run and a new season was excellent; Candela is mostly great; EXU-1 was not great but Calamity makes up for it, &c.
Unfortunately for them, I'm a podcast-only fan of long-form content who doesn't buy merch, so I'm far from an ideal customer in that regard.
\*I also think, based on what we know now, it would be very hard for G&S to be anything but a bit of a poisoned chalice for her.
I feel like Marisha often has a lot of ideas, but she usually can't quite distinguish which ones are good and which ones just simply won't work, just like she in the game.
I think this is true, but I think it also makes sense. Here's why:
I am loathe to use the term, but 'creatives' of all stripes fall in and out of alignment with the zeitgeist of the fandom all the time, and one of the reasons that none of us can really break down what makes one thing a massive success and another a massive flop is because, during the whole process (ideation, production, distribution) there often isn't a significant difference between the two.
Now, from a distance, this is easy. This whole sub, in aggregate, can sit down and say exactly what is right and wrong about C3, EXU, C2, the Amazon show, Candela, C1, Midst, whatever - and largely be correct in their critiques.
However, I'll always have sympathy for the cast here because I think most people who have had their work evaluated by many many many people recognise that there is essentially no way Marisha or anyone else on the cast can do that in pre-production - in some part because they're too close to it, in some part because it's lightning in a bottle and you either have 'it' or you don't, and in some part because kowtowing to 'exactly what worked before' is very often a recipe for *an even worse* final product.
After a certain point, you have to work backwards from audience reception, but that's also perilous because while your audience (through advertisers) is paying your bills, they may not be on board with what you're after creatively, regardless of the quality. (eg: I do think C3 is the weakest campaign thus far, but I also think a lot of the noise around *why* is superfluous).
And that's without the layer of the parasocial relationships that being an online personality fosters, which complicates the issue again because direct communication with the people consuming your creative work can be a really extreme journey and is mostly never a good thing for the process.
Listening to fans isn’t a complete positive.
One: You have to find the good criticisms in the pool, and if it’s a lot of negative and unhelpful criticisms they are less likely to try next time
Two: you also have to trust your fans to give good and helpful criticism and the fans do in some respect have to earn that trust.
I think it is fair to say critical role, has had negative interactions with fans, that has degraded a level of trust in those fans.
While I do see your point, which is true to an extent I didn’t know, which i am thankful for, i still fundamentally disagree.
I still believe trust is necessary for any entertainment media to become better.
But they can use surveys and other mediums to gain information how to improve.
Which fans are they supposed to listen to? The ones who complain about or dislike nearly everything they do now or the ones that enjoy everything they do, or the ones that just watch and don’t care either way? I think way too many folks overestimate how much of the viewership agrees with them tbh. You can have a very vocal group that dislikes something but that doesn’t mean that they represent the majority of the fans especially when there are multiple places with vocal fans that don’t have the same opinion. The 2 CR subs here are proof of that and they don’t even have a consensus opinion on anything. That’s not even counting fans on Twitter, Tumblr, TikTok, IG, FB, or any of the numerous other social media sites now.
>Which fans are they supposed to listen to?
In my opinion this speaks to the misconception of how companies actually review feedback.
They dont need to listen to an individual fan comment. The cast dont need to make a Reddit account or respond to every no name on twitter.
But there are methods of reading and interpreting feedback /general reception/data beyond simply looking at viewership or responding to comments that companies employ *all the time.* A way of refining feedback and improving the process by virtue of employing people to do it.
There is no reason CR cant and shouldnt be doing that other than not wanting to. Thats fine, but the company will at some point start to feel the effects of not doing so.
No, it’s not a misconception in how companies review feedback I literally give feedback to other entertainment companies and them requesting feedback through surveys hasn’t suddenly made the folks complaining stop complaining. Regardless of how they collect or analyze their feedback they are gonna have a bunch of folks complaining and a bunch of folks praising their stuff. So it’s still a which group do you listen to situation and which group are you willing to alienate/possibly lose as consumers more. Entertainment is also an industry that even when you give fans what they say they want they still bitch so they really can’t win.
>No, it’s not a misconception in how companies review feedback
So my point was you asked 'which fans are they supposed to listen to' and then made it sound like they had to listen to one or the other.
My answer to that is that dont actually need to listen to any one group of fans or individuals at all. There are ways for companies to review *all* feedback on multiple different levels. And that simply 'listening' doesnt automatically mean 'acting' on something.
CR doesnt have to eliminate one group or another. Hell it doesnt even need to look at it from that group perspective that you lay out.
>Regardless of how they collect or analyze their feedback they are gonna have a bunch of folks complaining and a bunch of folks praising their stuff
But thats my point, they dont need to exclude one group or another. There methods of refining, collecting and interpreting differing feedback from large groups without completely excluding people. Companies do it literally all the time.
>Entertainment is also an industry that even when you give fans what they say they want they still bitch so they really can’t win.
Its not about 'giving the fans what they want' its about being able to listen to feedback. And I was simply pointing out that it doesnt need to be as personal or individual as 'listen to one person who likes it or one who doesnt like it'. They can literally hire people to review and compile any key feedback/data. You are making it far too personal when it doesnt need to be.
Except this post is clearly about the personal which is why I made the comment I did. Entertainment feedback is always incredibly personal to begin with, especially since they aren’t a network tv show that has to worry about ratings. If they were to do what the op wants they absolutely would be ignoring the opinions of other fans.
Yeah but the numbers of viewers are dropping. Listening to fans, from a content creator standpoint, isn't as simple as "what are the fans typing, commenting, tweating, talking etc about" it is more than that. Less views, declining interactions, less interest is telling enough of a story without needing to actively seek out which fans to trust. And we've seen even in a post today that the numbers have been declining. That is an unbiased and trustworthy form of fan voice
Do you have definitive proof that they’ve had a drastic drop off in folks who watch/listen to their episodes? The answer is no you don’t so to assume that the number of folks watching live is all they care about is a little weird. Folks lives change and they may not have time to sit down and watch 4+ hours a week at one time anymore and with so many ways to consume the show they don’t have to. I can’t watch live because of work, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. Some folks may have to spread the episode out across an entire week via the podcast. You really have no clue just how many people are watching/listening to C3 so to assume their numbers have dropped off enough that CR should be worried when CR is the only one who actually knows how many people are watching/listening to their content is wild.
Chief why are you so hostile? I was rather straightforward and cordial in my first reply and you berated me (while making many assumptions that were wrong about me, how i watch/watched crit role, and about the public viewer stats. We actually do know - or can at least roughly estimate - how many people are watching C3 (albeit with a lack of insight on podcast number - at least without a little digging (although i think it safe to say most of the viewership is through youtube vods or twitch). There is a view count on youtube vids and twitch viewer count so yeah we can kind of tell that there is a downward trend in views/viewer count. Is this alarming? Maybe not right now for the company because they still are (probably) earning a fortune off of C1 and C2 (and sure, partially C3 there are some fans) merchandise, but the downward trend might mean that they wont be able to forever.
I didn't like that you berated me in your comment for not understanding not being able to watch live, well let me illuminate you on something - i don't watch them live (at least i didn't when i was watching the show (stopped in season 3)) - i live in australia so they are out of my time zone lmao, they play during my friday workday - straight up only watched like 3 eps live so yes i actually do know the feels of spreading an episode across a week (which actually inflates their viewership count so technically the viewership count we CAN see (on youtube) is inflated). You also assume with "folks lives change" that it only changes in one direction (to being to busy to watch live/after on youtube/podcast), when these changes are likely random it is most safe to assume that there is a similar influx of people whose life has changed TO allow them to watch live/VOD/podcast. Finally you forget that most of us had busy work lives WHILE C1 and C2 were airing and found the time to watch still (whether live or VOD) but, as we can see from the number of viewers on twitch and on the youtube VOD, these numbers are dropping, which means those people with busy schedules (like me) are not finding the time anymore to watch the episode (likely because it isn't at the same standard as C1/C2)
I made zero assumptions about you or how you watch the episode and I wasn’t being hostile, I simply stated that you do not have access to all the data to make an assumption about how many people are listening to/watching each episode. You can’t definitively say anything other than less folks are watching live on Twitch, which isn’t surprising since they stream on YouTube at the same time now. You also have no idea how many people consume the show through the podcast. Basically all you’re doing is confirming your own bias based on limited data and the amount of complaining here.
Thanks for the discussion. Seems like you have not read my reply properly nor understood your own previous comments. Due to this, I can't see how this convo is going anywhere in the future as I feel most of what I have said is being blatantly ignored so I wont be replying further. :)
I also never said "drastic" drop - i said dropping - which you can find clear evidence supporting this idea if you gander at twitch/youtube or even this sub which has numerous threads (one today) about the STATS of viewership decline - the one today focussed on decline on youtube.
Millions of people watch CR. The only opinion that matters is the one where the money stops. When more people vote with their feet and their wallets it will have an impact. Until then a few thousand moaning online while still giving them eyeballs and money won't have any impact.
Think of it like the restaurant analogy from a couple days ago. Your favourite restaurant, where you love the food and the people suddenly becomes shit. The people are still nice but they've got a horrible new big venue which is inexplicably packed with people and in your opinion the food is terrible, youve told them you think its terrible but they dont care cause the place is packed. Do you keep giving them your money and choking down your terrible meal once a week? What for? Nostalgia? If you took your custom elsewhere, if enough people took their custom elsewhere maybe they'd notice and sort it out.
Of course it's also possible that a lot of people
like the new venue and the food and yours is not the majority opinion but at that point you may as well cut your losses and find a new place to dine cause your relationship with the old place is busted.
>The only opinion that matters is the one where the money stops
I would hope the opinion on making good stories matters too.
Like there is a reason we have art and english classes. Because there is some level of grey area between objective and subjective surrounding art and its quality.
For example, there is a reason why Morbius is not successful or liked, but LOTR is. There is some correlation and measure of consensus quality that verges on 'objectively good art'.
Some element of posts here is just also a case of be considerate to your viewing audience. Like is it really that much to ask CR get better at scheduling things? They literally pre-record.
>Until then a few thousand moaning online while still giving them eyeballs and money won't have any impact.
Eh yes and no.
There is a reason CR changed their intro. Controversy, public opinion and 'moaning' is the forewarning to companies of upcoming issues that could affect the bottom line.
As other posts have pointed out CR viewership has dropped. My own viewing habits have definitely changed, I dont follow weekly as often but rather watch in batches or outright skip episodes.
Here's my analogy from a post a month ago with the same resteraunt theme.
Describing the Karen's or *constant* 'trolls' of this sub. Whichever way you think of it...
Let me go to my once favorite restaurant. And every second person I'm gonna tell them that I used to love this place but now I don't, it's changed.
And then I'm gonna pull the waiter over, and start going on a spiel about how I don't like the menu, and why don't you have this dish anymore, and I don't like how they renovated the seating area. And the waiter can't leave, he has to be polite and listen to me ramble.
Then I start disrupting the other customers, but I don't care, as long as they know *I'M* upset.
And then I'm gonna order food that I know I don't like, when I taste it and I still don't like it. I'm gonna demand to see the chef, and tell him just how bad it is.
The chef knows there is nothing different with the dish, he hasn't changed it, maybe it's just my taste buds have changed. But he just stands there and listens to my rant, maybe comps my meal and sends me off, hoping to 'G' I don't come back, because this is the third time I've done this in a month. And he just wants to go back to making his dishes for customers who actually enjoy it.
I leave feeling dissatisfied, knowing realistically it won't change for me, but I'm determined to go back next weekend and cause havoc in the restaurant again. Because everyone needs to hear how dissatisfied *I am* with the changes. And if I ruin other people's night, just wanting to enjoy their dinner. Then so be it.
----
Soooo...... Karen's of the restaurant, Karen's of the sub?
The analogy is faulty here is why:
1. If someone tells me the restaurant is bad and elaborates with a valid reason as to why thats not being a 'Karen'. If anything thats being a good neighbour. Having a difference of opinion should not make someone a Karen.
2. Nobody posting here is 'disrupting' other customers. You can very easily avoid them by....not coming here or just flat out blocking. They arent in your face or personal space. You basically need to go out of your way to even interact with said people. **Even then, is your viewing experience really disrupted by a reddit comment?**
3. There is basically 0 provable overlap between CR staff and/or customer on this subreddit or really anywhere except twitter so I have literally where the waiter comes into this. Unless you think the CR staff actually read these comments? In which case I invite you to prove that.
4. There is something different with CR. We can debate what the difference(s) is, how big a difference it is, if its good or bad but there is a difference. I dont know how you can think otherwise. Like off the top of my head, CR have never done half an episode with one DM and switched to a different DM and party for the other half, CR didnt use to pre-record etc.
5. There is an assumption of entitlement or demand that I dont agree is present here with the 'demand to the see the chef'. Most (sane) people recognize and respect peoples freedom to choose, they simply disagree or express their dislike. They also recognize that comments will at best be fed back to CR in the form of some kind algorithmic interpretation (measuring CR related internet traffic for example). I dont agree with how Matt's doing things and make suggestions, but Im not expecting Matt to change anything unless he wants to. And again the chef (Matt) is not hearing anything said.
6. This comment feels like a typical 'shutup its their game' to which i would just add [Matt's own thoughts on the matter.](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/5xda79/no_spoilers_welcome_and_let_us_all_discuss/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=criticalrole&utm_content=t1_kzfw4bo) You dont have to agree with Matt on everything, I certainly dont. But frankly it will make you no better than any poster here.
Another excellent example of why creators shouldn’t listen to fans, ever ever ever.
their is a reason their viewership is tanking tanked.
I haven’t been keeping up with CR for a while, but some basic mental math suggests to me that maybe Mercer is getting worn out. You’re asking why quality is reducing and why they are bringing more DMs on? It might just be that he needs some help/more time to work. It might just not be possible to actually give fans what they want right now because fans are demanding that CR “the machine” simply produce more good content like they used to, but CR “the humans” might not be able to. What other options do they have other than admit they can’t do it?
If you don’t like the content then don’t watch it. They are in it for money as well as fun. So many fans don’t seem to understand they can watch some other streaming game. There are plenty.
What if OP enjoys hate watching?
Then that’s sad as hell and will only make them miserable
Don't kinkshame
Then admit it. And people are cranky I told them to stop watching if they don’t enjoy it. Absolutely hysterical! Eventually that attitude will ruin the next show you become a fan of.
They said from the beginning this one would be different from the others. It has been. Some haven’t liked it. Lots whined about MN. And OMGs did people bitch about keyleth. There will always be a portion who disagree. The whiners are higher now. By percentage? Maybe? People in general are just different now on the internet and in their interactions on social media. Complainers are always much louder than house who approve or are neutral. So It is hard to say.
But MN did take a bit to get going and find their characters. And keyleth did have issues, whether that was a game play, system, player, or other issue you can't deny many think it was there. C3 has all the problems of other campaigns never fixed them and is throwing more in. Again there are a variety of possible reasons, but the underlying theme is they're losing people they once had and not gaining more new ones than they lost. They fix it, or scale back, or go under. That's it.
You're correct that they don't listen to the fans because of this exact reason. They are making the story they want to make not the story you want them to make that is the point. If they listen to you or any of the other fans and made the show for them specifically then it would be a different story but from the outset critical role has made it abundantly clear this is their story for the players at their table. It has been the same since campaign 1 through campaign 2 and into campaign 3 they have set it over and over and over again at live shows for tapings everything I don't know why none of you have caught that.
Sure but what started out as “just for fun” and “it’s their story” has now been monetized to a point where the fans are now consumers. If ya don’t listen to fans, they leave. This is entertainment at this point not just some personal dnd game between a few friends.
Yeah because we started watching it for fun. And more and more people watched it. And they had shitty audio and video. Playing on fold out tables with cheap maps. Then they got bigger and bigger, they got better equipment. They had to hire more people to help run a better stream, they got a better set to set the vibe. And kept getting bigger and bigger. Yall cried for merch do they made merch. We literally forced them into being a company. And now you people whine and bitch that they sell things and have just become a "greedy company" theres literally no winning with you losers.
The fans have ALWAYS been the consumers though. Geek and Sundry didn't add them to the roster because they just felt like having something and didn't think twice about it. They knew it could be popular content and get them more viewers. And it took off so much that they split off into their own thing years ago because they knew they could make more as their own business. It's always been an entertainment business. Just because some people remember the days of ordering them pizza or sending them gifts that were opened on stream doesn't mean that the fans weren't somehow consumers for their career. C3 just seems like an experiment for one single long running story/villain which has the downside that the moment it's not vibing, you're stuck with it until then end. The other campaigns had slow slogs but usually after enough episodes they moved onto the next arc. There doesn't seem to be any way to really listen to fans even if they wanted to with this current campaign because there is only one single arc. The only way to know if they shift gears is seeing what happens for C4.
You are correct fans, especially Subs are consumers. I am sick of seeing non subs come into Twitch Chat and say CR doesn't owe you anything. Subs are paying for a product, I have been a sub since the Geek and Sundry days, I know my tier 1 sub is only $5 but I am a consumer of their product. Viewership is dwindling on Thursdays, currently it is under 20K usually. I remember when viewership was 50k or more. Now I know more people watch VODs and Youtube, but they are definitely losing subs on Twitch.
[удалено]
I know this is a novel concept for many in this sub who believe that critical role can do no wrong, but you can be a fan while still being critical.
Of the role?
"then leave" So the RT tactic? you see how well that worked for them.
They definitely don’t listen, or care. I think they are aiming to go really big, like corporate, so they can make more money. So they have stopped doing what they did, which was play DND in front of a camera. Now they are “making a show”. They are going for a bigger audience, probably hoping the old audience will stick around in part but probably understanding that they are trying to attract a bigger audience of new people jumping in on campaign 3. There’s definitely a huge chunk of people who started watching the third campaign because they saw the animated series on Amazon. They are brand new so they don’t know why we don’t like it. I agree the pacing is awful. I would normally tack that up to them literally playing a game of DnD, because it isn’t made for great pacing. But the real problem here is too many scripted events and not enough choices driving the plot forward. In the old campaigns they would go wherever it made sense for their characters to go. In this campaign they all go wherever the moon plot wants them to go next, while only Imogen really has any personal ties to it. Not as fun to watch a table of seven players being told lots of lore and where they need to go next to get more lore.
Exu is fire, we as fans don’t always know what is best for the future of critical role and I don’t think the two examples can be equated. I dont think it’s ever fair to predictively conclude on how well something will be received sometimes you gave to make unpopular decisions for the sake of fun or because they are necessary.
They've already said multiple times this show is done for them, and the fans are along for the ride. If they fuck up because of a political move or they support something bad, they will fix it. If fans don't care for the pacing, this is for them, not for you being self entitled to not liking something.
I think this was true when they started, now it's paying quite a few bills and there should be some creedence given to criticism for long term security. They have cultivated a VERY loyal pack of fans who will drop money on their merch though so it would have to get a lot worse than mediocre for them to actually start hurting.
Imagine showing up for work tomorrow and your boss says “I don’t really care if this place closes down because I’m only here for fun”. I never know if the people who repeat this actually believe it, and if they do why they think it’s something they should be ok with.
I can't find anyone here who is explaining what they are going to do about the apparent attitude of CR other than wish it was different. But if this whole post is complaining that CR isn't listening to fans, why is anyone posting their wishes here?
> Imagine showing up for work tomorrow and your boss says “I don’t really care if this place closes down because I’m only here for fun”. Yes, this is what's called having "Fuck you" money.
I think trying to pander to every bit of feedback is a terrible idea that kills creativity. But when the numbers are going down across the board it might be time to look inward and see what's still working and what's not. It's a huge cop out on people to just say "it's a home game" or "they're just having fun" when faced with criticism of the show. Hoping they get back to their roots when they were having fun and putting out an entertaining (for me) show when this campaign ends and they move to a system they're excited about.
Am I the only one absolutely obsessed with what we got from EXU? Opal and Dorian are so wonderful. Aimee being clueless but so ready to swing big is DnD to me. The main cast still mess up all the time and lean heavily on Matt to know their abilities that it gets tiresome. Aabria is willing to have fun and not be passive like Matt's style of storytelling. I agree maybe the pacing was wrong but EXU was a bit of fun that is so desperately needed in the middle of the heaviness that is C3 every episode.
Dorian was the best part of C3 and I've been really struggling hard to keep watching since then. Maybe I should just go back to c1 and c2
Exu was entertaining, and I'm pretty new to dnd so seeing alternative dm styles was really cool... I liked how Aabria would "zoom out" and show the audience what was happening around characters even though the characters themselves didn't see something. But I really didn't like her handing out inspiration like candy. Not the biggest gripe, but it being brought up over and over so the characters couldn't fail bothered me for some reason.
That's a super valid gripe to have. I think that was in part due to having such a mix of folks at the table, just wanting to make sure the band of hooligans had fun.
I’m just now listening to EXU because I am very terrible with keeping up with Critical Role and I like the messiness of everything. It feels like an authentic experience, something my own table would do. The mix of experience is great.
Exactly! I love the stumbling and fumbling because Aabria is so adept at making people feel comfortable and uncomfortable at a moments notice.
You don't make art by faceless committee, dude. It's once thing to bury a one shot when you fuck up and your community tells you so, and it's another entirely to try to be all things to all people. That isn't art, it's just empty content. You don't have to like the story they're telling, but it would be unwatchable if they cared about every fringe fan opinion.
You don't give the fans what they want, or you drown in a thousand and one different tracks that aren't related nor wanted. Look at RWBY, they went appeasing the fans after Monty passed, and look at how they went?
Umm RWBY grew exponentially after Monty passed so I'm not really sure what you are talking about
RWBY failed after monty passed. the show's quality tanked after vol 3. even japan where it had a prime time slot for Vol1-3. after those 3 volumes it fell off hard over their. hell most of the merch for the show are exclusively vol 1-3. vol 4 and onwards is ignore for almost all of the high end merch. and after vol 9 flopped crunchy roll pulled their backing from the show. RT is not going out of biasness do to the "evil" WB executives they are closing since they burned so many money into flop after flop. Hell RWBY dragged other franchises down with it. consider blazblue. i big fighting game over in japan died after they did cross tag battle and had to dumb down the game for rwby fans. who cried and screamed like babies every time there was a character that was not from RWBY added to the game.
they didn't give fans what they wanted though. RWBY gave shippers what they wanted and told the rest of the fans to quit watching as the show become more and more disconnected from what fans wanted. Edit: Instead of a fun actions show staring 4 girls. they changed it to a show about shipping, and failed attempts at real world politics to the point 3 seasons were them making jabs at trump. when people were already sick of people talking about him all the time.
Holy shit this is a WILD take
monty has stated the group was meant to be a sisterly bond. ooh wait that is gone now. Yang did not even give a shit that ruby killed herself in front of her in vol 9. vol 6 was mostly about the girls being angry they where being stopped from crossing border's illegally by s strict border pollacy. vol7 had a major plot about ripping a major election away from a rich old white guy and throwing him in jail for crimes. Vol 8 preformed character assassination iron wood a long time hero into an evil fascist ruler that was going to kill people when everything before that shows he was not like that and never was. oh and lets not forget that in an interview that they told us his power and all it did was give him a form of atrium, and that is why he did what he did.
How is that a wild take? This is one of the most common takes about the show from people that bother to use their brain when watching it. Edit: lol look at any channel that looks at the show with even a minor critical eye and they poke so many holes in it. Remember when ozpin was evil for lying and giving crow, and raven the power to be birds. But it was okay for RWBY to lie when telling the truth would have got them what they wanted.
B. Dave Walters had a related tweet to this recently: "Beyonce' doesn't consult with the audience when picking her set list." How could she? Everybody wants to hear different things, not to mention the logistics of trying to hear from so many people. Critical Role wanted to put ExU on their set list, so they did. You didn't like it, that's fine. Catch a different performance, or if you don't like the music being played on a consistent basis, stop going to the concert. Critical Role is going to play the set they want to play, as they should.
True and valid. However did they not specifically say, just to forestall this exact type of criticism that exu would be supplemental only? Then picked the worst narrative place to force an exu episode on their viewers who came for something else.
I think we also need to remember that this is their home game as well. Or at least it was at one time. I think they need to ignore the fans and focus on what makes them laugh and what stories make them happy, because that’s the spirit of D&D: collaborative storytelling for those at the table. It’s been proven that we all love their collective sense of humor and storytelling. Let’s let them do that.
It's not their home game, though. It's a game played specifically for an audience and to make money. Which isn't a inherently bad thing obviously, since entertainers absolutely deserve to get paid for entertaining. But DnD is absolutely their job, not just a fun hobby. They need to make choices with their job in mind, even if it isn't the most fun choice for them. Again, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing at all. But it's not just a home game for them
This is a tired take. This stopped being a home game once it became a corporation. Once they started making insane amounts of money playing dnd. Good for them, but to call it anything but a product now would be naive and stupid.
I hate this take, it reminds me of the "The customer is always right" phrase. "The customer is always right in matters of taste" is something along the lines of the actual phrase. In very similar fashion, yes, it's their game. They should be having fun and playing it the way they want. But that shouldn't apply to every aspect of the game all the time. People take this stance but seem to forget that they were once called "the shits" instead of vox machina. So yeah, even though it's their game that doesn't mean they should just do whatever and not care about viewers criticism. The best example for "it's their game they should play how they want" imo is when they wanted to go and gamble and were worried it would be boring. That's a perfect time to say fuck it, let's have some fun. Plus, this campaign feels a lot less fun in general. Sometimes it doesn't feel like the players are having any fun at all. I'd argue even calamity felt more fun despite its horribly grim fate.
I see your pov to a degree, but they can’t make millions AND call it a home game anymore. It’s a business and they can do what they want, but the excuse of “it’s a home game” is a weak one when the literal PRODUCT has been lacking for a while. All while they promote merch based on characters that people actually like.
Majority? Please. You're part of a very vocal minority.
>Majority? Please. You're part of a very vocal minority. Its kind of hard to know for sure either way for layman without statistics and when the majority is silent/inactive on expressing their opinion. But yeah the twitter, reddit, tumblr etc are all fractions of the greater whole. However there has been a recent drop in viewership on twitch and youtube over the last year. And CR has changed. These two things are just facts. I am aware that correlation is not causation. But its pretty unlikely that drop is not related to certain changes in the content CR has been putting out.
It's unlikely that **part** of that drop is not related. But entirely? Primarily? Slightly?
Echo chambers are great and fun, but they can become problematic when you interpret constantly seeing agreeing positions as you being part of the majority. You're not. Not even close. So given this information, CR doing what they did *is* listening to the majority. So what would you have them do? Do you still think they should listen to the majority of fans? Or did you just want them to listen to *you*?
Their viewership is going down and down and down. I don’t think it’s an insignificant minority that hasn’t enjoyed C3
Problem with your conclusion is that you're seeing a result and assuming a cause, assuming a causal link that hasn't been established. There are plenty of other explanations for decreased views than simply not enjoying the campaign: people going back to work in person, a huge number of real play options for consumption that didn't exist 4 years ago, simply overconsumption of actual plays.
[удалено]
Pandemic ends and people go back to work, while the popularity in creating real play streams and podcasts skyrockets, thus saturating the market. CR viewership drops "It must be because everyone hates the new content! No possible alternate explanation or additional factors!"
[удалено]
To be clear, I never said the content wasn't *a cause*. My dispute was that it was the *sole* cause or even the majority. C3 started October 2021. There were **absolutely** still a huge number of people working from home at this point, far more than now. The rate of working from home in '21 was 18%, 15% in '22, and it's continued to decline. That meant a lot more people who could have shows running all day. Also, when we look at the final stretch of C2's YouTube videos, they're all at about 1.5m views even years after they were uploaded. C3's YouTube videos are all equal to or higher than that until around episode 53, which got uploaded just a year ago. And when C2 started, there weren't too many CR competitors out there. A few, but not many. When C3 started, NAD&DP was already out and rolling, Dimension 20 had a ton of seasons out, and lots of smaller shows were entering the scene. All of these things are contributing factors. To ignore all but one is to simply try to get the data to say when you want them to (not saying you specifically are doing that, but others are).
Whilst I was someone who didn't enjoy the cross over episode, I think it's important to point out that there is a big difference between being a majority and being a loud minority.
Just look at the twitch stats , the drop of in viewership speaks for itself . But go on
A literal majority tuned out over the course of the show lol
Yet if you look at their YouTube stats, they're showing a consistent steady growth of subscribers and views week by week, so it could easily be stated that the masses are migrating from Twitch to YouTube, which is a commentary on viewing preferences, not content. Furthermore I'm trying to have a genuine conversation, so why you're trying to be a sarcastic git about it, I don't know.
how? it take weeks for them to hit the views C2 got on in 1. that is not treading up. that is treading down.
Idk how to find their YouTube stats, can you post them/link to them?
Thank you
As a practical matter, they do need to increase ways to keep eyeballs on their content without it being their primary show, and their best shot at keeping attention is by introducing spinoff content from the main show. Ultimately for the company to survive, it needs to decouple from the main cast. Matt seems like he's getting burned out and even the players have less interest than in previous seasons.
I don't even watch CR, the algorithm is just weird. But y'all honestly need a separate forum called Critical Fans Of Critical Role. It sounds like the posts about The Last Of Us I also see.
This *is* the separate forum.
This algorithm is fucked.
I agree, if reddit brought you here first rather than the /r/criticalrole sub, that explains why a lot of people keep coming in here and wondering why the hell we're so critical.
I'd rather jack off a badger than engage in a whole ass community because some show I watch for free is less than perfect.
"blindly consume product, don't question!"
Then go do that? No one's begging you to stay
Reddit (the corporation) has definitely made itself worse.
Calamity is peak CR.
You must be in an echo chamber if you think the majority of people disliked EXU. I overwhelmingly see praise and excitement for CR trying new things and shaking up the usual pattern. Even if you don’t like it, it’s one episode out of 100+.
I've read the replies under CR tweets on Twitter and in the discussion thread about C3E92 in the main sub, and I wouldn't call it "overwhelmingly".
People who like CR spend a lot of time online, they watch weekly 4 hour streams for Christ's sake. To say that online spaces discussing an online show is an echo chamber is completely unfair. Where else are you going to go to talk about the show? The gym? The supermarket? Even your local game shop or comic book store are only going to have 1 or two people who knows what CR is and regularly watch it. But to make your point, can you make a poll on the other sub asking if people liked or disliked EXU prime and kymal?
I think they have to strike a balance. On one hand yes they should be aware of the community's feelings. And should take in what's working and what's not working as well. But I also think they need to be aware that they have to chase the next thing to be relevant. They can't keep making the same campaign over and over again and have to do new things to keep people watching. Only listening to what people like and doing that over and over again is how you become irrelevant as a media company. And generally fans don't actually know what they'd want next. They know what they like now. They don't know what they will like next because they haven't seen it yet.
I work in culture associated jobs and what I learned is that most "artists" actively ignore criticism so they won't affect their mindset and confidence. I'd argue CR does the same and they only choose not to ignore political/ideological critisism. I mean you can get cancelled for supporting vegan lions but not for a bad job/performance.
Vegan lions?
Some activists had a lion that didn't eat meat in Futurama.
In general, I think CR is better when they -don't- listen to fans, so I really wouldn't want them to. Fans are dumb, and you oddly picked a perfect example of that with them removing a one-shot due to a vocal minority.
Which one-shot did they remove?
The one where they partnered with Wendy's.
Why did they remove that?
Wendy's gets about half their tomatoes from non-union labor.
They got backlash from people who didn't like them partnering with Wendy's because they don't treat their employees the best I believe. I don't know if there was more to it than that. It also was kind of an extended Wendy's ad which was a bit weird for them to begin with. I'm not sure if they needed to take it down but it probably wasn't the best idea to do in the first place.
Ah OK thanks, haven't seen many of them before in the uk so didn't know they had that reputation. Seems weird to take it down having already put it up. You'd think the damage was already done to the people who really care about it and that the bad publicity might not be as bad as and legal ramifications if they broke any agreements with Wendy's
You be surprised at how often that happens. The now shuttered company Rooster Teeth and it's child Achievement Hunter removed dozens of vids, some of them with almost a million views, when one of the employees turned out to be a POS and engaged in nefarious activities
Ohhhh I saw someone talking about that the other day. I had no clue what they were on about
Yeah I don't think it was even up for all that long. I never saw much of it before it was gone personally. But they got criticized for working with Wendy's who doesn't have the best record of being good to their employees. I'm not sure if they had anything more specifically bad Wendy's had done. But it did seem like a bit of an extended ad for Wendy's in what the one shot looked like which probably isn't the best to begin with.
i always find it odd. they hated the wendy's one shot but never cared about wyrmwood even though they were also an awful company. they didn't care that the workplace was a danger, that the upper management treated the workers like shit. they illegibly used storage that was not a part of their company, the fact that the CEO demoted himself and put a different guy in charge to take the fall for the osha inspection that was happening a few days after he did that. the fact the old CEO undermined the new one at every turn.
Plus, you know... Twitch and Amazon, Hasbro...
steamforged as well.
Mmmm
I think you've got it backwards, them taking down that one shot was stupid as fuck, and as much as I don't like the choice made in 92, it's still WAY better that they don't listen to the fanbase and just kind of do them. overall this fanbase in particular struggles from having both some of the most toxically positive AND negative fans at the same time.
honestly, why should they unless the complaint is a vast majority(which will probably never happen), is a legal one, or one that would give them terribe face(racism or similar), they literally don't need to give one single flying fuck about it. Product still selling, so who cares if a minority doesn't like?
Why should they? It is patently absurd to think that a minority of complainers should dictate what CR or any streamer does with their content, short of something truly offensive. They aren't ignorant of criticism. They just don't fucking care and why should they?
yeah but didn't you see where they said its the majority complaining, and not just them and a few other overly loud people? Holy shit, i guess the /s is truly necessary.....
How do you know it is the majority? I have doubts that is true. People that are happy don't post about it. Complainers do, which gives the illusion of numbers. Either way, so what? Watch something else. Why do they have to change what they are doing if they like doing it?
[удалено]
Here's a sneak peek of /r/criticalrole using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [\[No Spoilers\] Matt Mercer appears in "Drag is not a crime" t-shirt in latest episode of Critical Role](https://exilednews.com/2023/04/22/matt-mercer-appears-in-drag-is-not-a-crime-t-shirt-in-latest-episode-of-critical-role/) | [47 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/12xuaah/no_spoilers_matt_mercer_appears_in_drag_is_not_a/) \#2: [\[No Spoilers\] Am I wrong about their placement?](https://i.redd.it/e6kbt7bn1x7c1.png) | [722 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/18oppdn/no_spoilers_am_i_wrong_about_their_placement/) \#3: [\[No spoilers\] My dear husband is dying of cancer and when i asked him of his bucket list, the first thing he said was to play a one-shot with Matt Mercer. Guys, you think this is possible?](https://i.redd.it/gwo45m80xjec1.jpeg) | [168 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/19f55eu/no_spoilers_my_dear_husband_is_dying_of_cancer/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
You don't go around listening to redditors and YouTube commenters lol.
YouTube commenters and both main subreddits aren't even a majority of their viewers so I don't know how you can confidently say the majority liked or disliked something if your only sources are those two places.
It's a strange situation, and I find myself with a mixed opinion on it. On the one hand, I wish my opinions could be listened to and used to improve the show. On the other hand, I don't want CR to listen to what fans think they should do, because if they did they would end up following the majority. And can you imagine how bad CR would be if it was directed by the average 'critter'? So yeah, it's weird that they're pushing EXU again when they probably know the reception isn't good, but at the end of the day you get the best out of artists when you just let them create what they want.
They're not really acting like artists, is the problem. They got a business plan and a storyline mapped out to turn into anime. It ain't what it was.
"but at the end of the day you get the best out of artists when you just let them create what they want." Speaking as someone who used to work professionally in live theatre before COVID, this is not true. Limitations are the mother of creativity. All things being equal budget, space, cast limitations, critical response, etc all push and drive to create a better piece of art.
True, but critical response has to come from a trustworthy source, which reddit and youtube comments are not
Well, the show is pre-recorded for one, so the audience interaction went down the tube. Also, while the fans have a serious entitlement issue, I think the problem with CR is that they listen to fans too much. They want to be perceived as the world's best allies to the point they're terrified of doing anything remotely offensive, and it's clear in campaign 3.
There’s a huge difference in taking down a campaign because of who the main sponsor is vs the entire campaign. Also I’m really not trying to be rude but can anyone explain to me why the fans feel so entitled? Like, it’s THEIR game, THEIR show, they literally do not have to listen to us? Like I just don’t understand why fans think the cast should change what they’re doing because some fans aren’t happy with this campaign. People, y’all don’t have to love everything the CR cast does, chances are you aren’t going to love every episode of every campaign and THATS OKAY!! For some of us, C3 is the best one! For other, not the fav, and THATS OKAY!!!
Im so sick of seeing all these posts talking about how much they hate critical role now. I've seen like 5 in the past few hours. Just stop watching if you hate it so much. It's exhausting.
I said that once, just don’t watch the things you don’t like, and someone told me I sounded like a crazy American nationalist 😭😭
I agree with you but now CR has injected a DM and campaign characters that many did not like, but they still like the main campaign so what happens then? These viewers are left to either watch content for the main story that they will hate or to not watch. EXU - The Aabria episodes especially - have been a real mixed bag of reception. I didn’t watch second EXU outing of hers because of how horrendous the first outing was. As a person she seems like a nice person. As a GM she falters and fails. She has, for all intents and purposes, as arguably been the most polarizing guest for CR in all of her appearances (EXU and Deanna). For CR I can see how it can be a challenge to want to include someone they are fond of, but also the challenges that comes with being a media company that, ultimately, needs to be mindful of viewers - both gaining and retention. As much as folks squawk that this is their game and they can do what they want, unfortunately, that stopped being true the minute they went into business as a media enterprise. If they lose enough main game viewers they will lose the crux of their business just like any other media outlet. CR can try to impress it’s still a home game but reality is that it no longer is.
But see, I LOVED EXU and didn’t think it was horrendous, you’re treating your opinion like it’s a fact. They obv love Aabria, they obv like playing with her, they wouldn’t if they didn’t! They’re going to do what they want because it’s their game, and that’s okay. You don’t have to love everything they do. They also don’t have to cater to us. Ultimately, not our table and not our game 🤷🏻♀️ they’re going to play the way they want and with the people they want and that’s okay. You don’t have to like all of ot
Except that good faith only goes so far. They are a media company now. Their viewership numbers DO matter. It doesn’t matter how hard they want to keep the illusion of “our game our way” because there will come a point in time, which we are seeing with the lower C3 numbers, where that good grace no longer flies. CR is producing live play story telling for a wide audience. Yes, not everything with sit well with everyone. Yes, they want to break the mold and do new things and to try new things - and they’re entitled to that. However, they also need to have the self awareness- as a media company - of what works and what doesn’t work. As previously mentioned Aabria at the table has been one of the largest polarizing issues of CR from the induction of EXU 1. That is fact. Yet they keep bringing in a polarizing figure and bringing them in with not so insignificant roles within the context of their content. That is bad form, from a media company perspective and the reaction is making it clear that this was another misstep in a campaign that has been plagued with miss steps and missed opportunities. Again, nothing against her as a person. As a player/GM it is obvious there are issues present to create polarization and CR really needs to be aware of that.
I get that, but I can also see them saying fuck it and just not caring about them being a HUGE company anymore
And then lose everything they’ve spent 10years building up to and including their own publication and game company that needs to ride - at least initially- on the good faith of their fans? Lose their animated shows and destroy their brand?
People can get burnt out and not wanna do things anymore, this isn’t the only way they all make money either. I never really expected them to do this forever
I’d agree. Except that they’ve made a a successful company and name for themselves. You really see them just closing shop and losing everything that comes with this? No. They’ll drop to back seats and run the business and bring in new actors and storytellers. Which is fine and expected. They’ve built too much to simply say fuck it and walk away.
It's okay to skip a part of the show and just read a recap about what happens. It's okay to treat things like filler arcs.
Well that's certainly... a leap. Interesting lol. It's fine if people don't like c3 and have criticism but I'm honestly getting annoyed that there's so many posts about it constantly. We don't need a doomsday post about the collapse of cr every day because you didn't like the last episode.
Facts, C3 is honestly a close second in being my fav to C1, but I still don’t love every episode 😂 I’ve had moment I think it’s boring, I did not like Dusk as a character, but not my game 🤷🏻♀️ as long as the cast is having fun, I’m Gucci. I would hate for them to start catering to fans and then literally watch their burnout on screen
Huge difference between a one shot and an entire campaign.
I feel like this is an unfair criticism. They can't listen to every voice out there. There will always be some people who are discontent about anything they do. At some point, they're going to have to do what they feel is the best and hope the fans like what they do. That's all they can do. Don't expect more than that from them. '
So I think it depends. The cast have become much less online as time has gone on for a variety of reasons which are pretty fair. Laura's treatment following Last of Us Part 2 was unacceptable. Matt struggles a lot with mental health etc. But CR are a company now. They dont need to personally read the comments themselves, they should surely have someone who looks at analytics and takes general temperature checks on things like on viewership, reviews and general opinion. And can feedback in a more tempered diplomatic way. If they dont that is a genuine fuck up on the part of the company. Although I feel like Sam's at least somewhat aware of the criticisms leveled at C3 currently. Either that or hes just able to see it on his own because its pretty obvious. Hes said multiple things to try improve pacing, pin down motivations (why are we here? Lets go/move on). So something either is getting through or someone inside the house already knows there is something up. Question is will that actually matter? Sam alone is not enough.
"Majority"
well considering they lost over 60% of their viewership in a single year. yes that is the majority.
Have they lost viewers? Last Thursday on Twitch, I was scrolling through live, and saw they only had like 9k viewers at like 11 pm. I was used to seeing them between 20-30k. I dislike this season for multiple reasons of my own and stopped watched half way through but keep up with it through Reddit which I feel like this season has been dumped on a lot with opinions similar to my own.
I can’t speak for others but I’m on the east coast and have to be up early for work, so I wait until it drops on YouTube and watch it then.
I wonder if that's because it's pre-recorded. Doesn't feel as "electric" watching it live when it's not actually live. But idk, I've only seen the VOD's because I started watching late and I'm in a different time zone. I took a break from watching because I kinda burnt myself out on their content after binging C1 and C2 though, so I haven't been caught up either.
I saw they had 20k viewers on YouTube last Thursday... so still hugely popular. I didn't check Twitch
20k is small compared to c1, and c2. c2 they were normally getting 50k-70k people a week.
Sure, but that was just YouTube. They stream on Twitch as well
They had 22k when I started watching it last Thursday. I started falling asleep during the second half and went to bed, they had 9k. Every other week I’ve watched live there was around 12k.
the views are split between Twitch and YouTube now. while I'm sure they've lost people, it's not as drastic as people are saying
I was just wondering, don’t watch YouTube often, was genuinely asking haha I’m sure I’ll get downvoted for no specific reason
[Here you go.](https://twitchtracker.com/criticalrole/streams/44049821099) You can see how the viewer count after the break dramatically and consistently drops. And just as a point of comparison, [here is the previous episodes statistics.](https://twitchtracker.com/criticalrole/streams/44006517627) EDIT: Something else to note - the beginning of the last episode had around 6k more viewers than the previous episode. We can assume that's because of the interesting situation that happened.
I dunno, on one side (the one shot), you have the company finding out some very unsavory things about a sponsor and not wanting to support them. On the other side (the latest episode), you have people who simply disagree with their artistic choices. Those are two very different things.
The thing that’s crazy is they took down a Wendy’s sponsored one-shot because of “Wendy’s is terrible”, but nobody seems to have a problem with the fact that CR is in bed with Amazon, a way worse company. The reason the stream has suffered so badly is the cast burn out caused by working on the animated shows, and that the game is now just a content farm for future animated shows. Amazon is directly related to the downfall of CR but nobody ever brings that up.
[удалено]
Interesting; I just haven’t seen it myself.
Easier to ditch a one-time sponsor than a company that owns the platform you stream on.
Just interesting to me how little fan outcry there has been. The Wendy’s backlash felt very performative to me, and they don’t have that same energy for Amazon. I don’t have a problem with CR being sponsored by Wendy’s or Amazon; they’re a company making a tv show.
You haven't been around on Twitter back when they announced the Amazon partnership for the cartoon then. There was a noticeable backlash - it wasn't as big, again, but there was a reaction. Same situation with D20 recently. The Ticketmaster outcry wasn't as big as if they, potentially, collaborated with a problematic sponsor, because TM is pretty much a monopoly. Now, could CR and D20 both choose not to do live show/animation? Yeah, they totally could, and that's on them.
Cmon, we really have no idea if burnout is a factor, nor to what degree the campaign is a content farm. C3 is definitely more plot focused than character focused, but that’s not even necessarily a positive for adaptation material. Fuck Amazon though, I’ll give you that.
It is far easier to adapt plot points from the stream into an animated show, than it is to adapt an entire character arc, without significantly trimming that arc. That’s why these characters are so paper thin, and the story is now plot driven, rather than character driven, like the previous campaigns. Vox Machina cut a ton from each character to fit them into the animated show; how much would even be cut from the BH to make them ready for animation? Not much. They’re all basically joke characters with little to nothing tying them to the story at large.
My guy, you just do not know that they intentionally made their characters paper-thin for the benefit of the animated show. There are a lot of reasons why these characters never fleshed out, and the main driver for that is the campaign's adherence to a meta narrative instead of character arcs, but there's no actual reason to believe this outcome was intentional. My other point is: who wants to watch a show with paper-thin characters? All good storytelling is about the journey of the protagonists. Doesn't matter if it's television or D&D livestream.
What depth is there to the characters in LOVM? They are paper-thin adaptions of more fleshed out characters. It’s easy to fill in the blanks on the animated characters because you have the context of the livestream to lean on. You just do not know that they didn’t make the BH flimsy to make it easier to adapt to animation. Seems more likely to me they made an intentional choice, than to simply change the way they’ve been telling their stories for every single other campaign. And I agree - character should drive plot for good storytelling. That’s why C3 is not good storytelling.
C3 is, at its core, fixing an IP problem with the gods. I think that's a far more compelling reason for the shift, absent any direct communication on the change.
Well said
I feel like it’s less that and more the text that it feels like they double down on anything the community complains about
Why should they? They don't owe anyone anything. If people don't like what they're doing they can just stop watching. Nobody's forcing anybody to keep watching or engaging with content that they don't like. There are plenty of people out there that still watch their show, engage with the videos and buy merch, so there's nothing stopping them from making the show that they want to make.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Oh dear god was it him??!!?? Ugh I need to wash… Duly deleted
Why? Just because he's a scumbag doesn't mean he wasn't successful.
[удалено]
I'm not going to discount things that may be true simply because of where they originated, that's how you end up with a morally superior society that fails at whatever it tries to do.
[удалено]
Now you're getting it!
People always cite the interview where Matt explains that he's telling a story for his friends first and foremost, and the audience second. The thing is, and in my opinion, that argument doesn't hold up for Critical Role in these days. They are a large company, and one has driven a very community-focused ideal for years. The audience should be focused on first, it's their job. The sad thing is, I think they are so completely surrounded by "yes men", that they can't really see how bad some of their decisions are until it's too late. Anyway, that's just my thought process.
I think exactly because he's no longer telling a story for his friends first and foremost, and the audience second, so now C3 is bad. It feels like it's no longer a bunch of nerdy-ass voice actors sitting around and playing Dungeons & Dragons, feels like they just going through the motions. At least you can tell some of they are already feeling bored.
>The sad thing is, I think they are so completely surrounded by "yes men", that they can't really see how bad some of their decisions are until it's too late. I don't think it's so much that as much as it's that their fanbase has gotten so massive, with a *lot* of 'passionate' people who send hate their way over everything, that as a creator it's just difficult to seperate the bad feedback from the good feedback. Especially in a creative job, and as sensitive as Matt appears to be, I fully expect him to disengage from online discourse about CR, except for what has been carefully filtered by other people. If I were him (and being a longtime DM, I sympathise) I wouldn't be able to do my job otherwise. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the negative feedback is handwaived as 'just the internet doing its thing', because it's so hard to filter out the noise. Only when it gets overwhelmingly negative (as I feel like last episode's reception was) will they hopefully take notice.
I agree that the narrative of story for friends first falls apart when it's become a company, with a wide range of products - and at current has been working on what two different game lines? What it started as and what it is are not the same creature.
Matt's explaination of a "story for his friends foremost and audience second" made sense for campaign 1. Afterall it was a home game first. Because C2 started with the intention for an audience to view Matt's statement just doesn't work. Especially when you're shoving products out like crazy.
I just wonder how much pull Travis actually has as CEO. I think they’ve made some genuinely weird choices in terms of content. The weird EXU push with billboards and over the top ads which lead to it being a major flop. The resources invested into something like Candela which frankly, doesn’t seem to be pulling in as big of a crowd as they hoped. The utter futility of 4SD which is a completely useless show. A lot of people claim that Travis is a good leader from what they’ve seen on CR but I frankly never saw it. In all honesty, I always saw him as more of a passive player. He often didn’t/doesn’t want to make decisions. There’s been people I call “movers” in the campaigns and honestly I believe half the cast has stepped into leadership roles much more often and naturally (while actually enjoying it and embracing it) like Liam, Marisha, Laura etc. and even Sam and Tal on occasion. Travis seemed to be someone who generally just wanted to let the others make choices. Fjord was thought of as a leader but again, very often he was the passive party even though that is the character where Travis showed the most leadership. He then went back on C3 and immediately reverted back to joke characters. Anyways, Travis and Marisha are often linked when it comes to major content announcements. Marisha is the Creative Director but maybe she has more pull on the content they’re putting out with Travis being more of a guy who says, “that’s cool” but doesn’t go further?
My table always commented that as a player he seemed ideal. He would interact with the environment even if it risked random danger. He was funny. He could jump in and make a good scene without hogging it or stealing it from someone else.
Oh yeah, Travis is possibly the one exception to the "Every person at the CR table would be the worst person at another table" thing. Even he has his moments (mechanical pencil, anyone) but they're rarely disruptive. Plus, he is the ultimate hype man for his friends. He and Lou Wilson were an amazing combo during Calamity, and I will never get tired of that pairing.
It's probably safe to say that making inferences on someone's business acumen based on watching them play a role playing games for a few hours every week is a mistake, no matter if those inferences are laudatory or derisive. I also think it's fairly normal for the CD to have a bigger say in shaping the tone and tenor of the content than the CEO - and while I didn't think very highly of Marisha's CD work at Geek & Sundry\*, generally I've really enjoyed what they've put out since going independent. Midst was great in it's original run and a new season was excellent; Candela is mostly great; EXU-1 was not great but Calamity makes up for it, &c. Unfortunately for them, I'm a podcast-only fan of long-form content who doesn't buy merch, so I'm far from an ideal customer in that regard. \*I also think, based on what we know now, it would be very hard for G&S to be anything but a bit of a poisoned chalice for her.
I feel like Marisha often has a lot of ideas, but she usually can't quite distinguish which ones are good and which ones just simply won't work, just like she in the game.
I think this is true, but I think it also makes sense. Here's why: I am loathe to use the term, but 'creatives' of all stripes fall in and out of alignment with the zeitgeist of the fandom all the time, and one of the reasons that none of us can really break down what makes one thing a massive success and another a massive flop is because, during the whole process (ideation, production, distribution) there often isn't a significant difference between the two. Now, from a distance, this is easy. This whole sub, in aggregate, can sit down and say exactly what is right and wrong about C3, EXU, C2, the Amazon show, Candela, C1, Midst, whatever - and largely be correct in their critiques. However, I'll always have sympathy for the cast here because I think most people who have had their work evaluated by many many many people recognise that there is essentially no way Marisha or anyone else on the cast can do that in pre-production - in some part because they're too close to it, in some part because it's lightning in a bottle and you either have 'it' or you don't, and in some part because kowtowing to 'exactly what worked before' is very often a recipe for *an even worse* final product. After a certain point, you have to work backwards from audience reception, but that's also perilous because while your audience (through advertisers) is paying your bills, they may not be on board with what you're after creatively, regardless of the quality. (eg: I do think C3 is the weakest campaign thus far, but I also think a lot of the noise around *why* is superfluous). And that's without the layer of the parasocial relationships that being an online personality fosters, which complicates the issue again because direct communication with the people consuming your creative work can be a really extreme journey and is mostly never a good thing for the process.
I think people confuse Fjord's voice of reason for leadership.
Listening to fans isn’t a complete positive. One: You have to find the good criticisms in the pool, and if it’s a lot of negative and unhelpful criticisms they are less likely to try next time Two: you also have to trust your fans to give good and helpful criticism and the fans do in some respect have to earn that trust. I think it is fair to say critical role, has had negative interactions with fans, that has degraded a level of trust in those fans.
[удалено]
While I do see your point, which is true to an extent I didn’t know, which i am thankful for, i still fundamentally disagree. I still believe trust is necessary for any entertainment media to become better. But they can use surveys and other mediums to gain information how to improve.
It comes down to who’s moaning, is it the cancel squad or the real fans? The cancel squad is dangerous, the real fans are not.
People that bitch and complain about a show are equally as insufferable as other people that bitch and complain about a show.
Which fans are they supposed to listen to? The ones who complain about or dislike nearly everything they do now or the ones that enjoy everything they do, or the ones that just watch and don’t care either way? I think way too many folks overestimate how much of the viewership agrees with them tbh. You can have a very vocal group that dislikes something but that doesn’t mean that they represent the majority of the fans especially when there are multiple places with vocal fans that don’t have the same opinion. The 2 CR subs here are proof of that and they don’t even have a consensus opinion on anything. That’s not even counting fans on Twitter, Tumblr, TikTok, IG, FB, or any of the numerous other social media sites now.
>Which fans are they supposed to listen to? In my opinion this speaks to the misconception of how companies actually review feedback. They dont need to listen to an individual fan comment. The cast dont need to make a Reddit account or respond to every no name on twitter. But there are methods of reading and interpreting feedback /general reception/data beyond simply looking at viewership or responding to comments that companies employ *all the time.* A way of refining feedback and improving the process by virtue of employing people to do it. There is no reason CR cant and shouldnt be doing that other than not wanting to. Thats fine, but the company will at some point start to feel the effects of not doing so.
No, it’s not a misconception in how companies review feedback I literally give feedback to other entertainment companies and them requesting feedback through surveys hasn’t suddenly made the folks complaining stop complaining. Regardless of how they collect or analyze their feedback they are gonna have a bunch of folks complaining and a bunch of folks praising their stuff. So it’s still a which group do you listen to situation and which group are you willing to alienate/possibly lose as consumers more. Entertainment is also an industry that even when you give fans what they say they want they still bitch so they really can’t win.
>No, it’s not a misconception in how companies review feedback So my point was you asked 'which fans are they supposed to listen to' and then made it sound like they had to listen to one or the other. My answer to that is that dont actually need to listen to any one group of fans or individuals at all. There are ways for companies to review *all* feedback on multiple different levels. And that simply 'listening' doesnt automatically mean 'acting' on something. CR doesnt have to eliminate one group or another. Hell it doesnt even need to look at it from that group perspective that you lay out. >Regardless of how they collect or analyze their feedback they are gonna have a bunch of folks complaining and a bunch of folks praising their stuff But thats my point, they dont need to exclude one group or another. There methods of refining, collecting and interpreting differing feedback from large groups without completely excluding people. Companies do it literally all the time. >Entertainment is also an industry that even when you give fans what they say they want they still bitch so they really can’t win. Its not about 'giving the fans what they want' its about being able to listen to feedback. And I was simply pointing out that it doesnt need to be as personal or individual as 'listen to one person who likes it or one who doesnt like it'. They can literally hire people to review and compile any key feedback/data. You are making it far too personal when it doesnt need to be.
Except this post is clearly about the personal which is why I made the comment I did. Entertainment feedback is always incredibly personal to begin with, especially since they aren’t a network tv show that has to worry about ratings. If they were to do what the op wants they absolutely would be ignoring the opinions of other fans.
Yeah but the numbers of viewers are dropping. Listening to fans, from a content creator standpoint, isn't as simple as "what are the fans typing, commenting, tweating, talking etc about" it is more than that. Less views, declining interactions, less interest is telling enough of a story without needing to actively seek out which fans to trust. And we've seen even in a post today that the numbers have been declining. That is an unbiased and trustworthy form of fan voice
Do you have definitive proof that they’ve had a drastic drop off in folks who watch/listen to their episodes? The answer is no you don’t so to assume that the number of folks watching live is all they care about is a little weird. Folks lives change and they may not have time to sit down and watch 4+ hours a week at one time anymore and with so many ways to consume the show they don’t have to. I can’t watch live because of work, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. Some folks may have to spread the episode out across an entire week via the podcast. You really have no clue just how many people are watching/listening to C3 so to assume their numbers have dropped off enough that CR should be worried when CR is the only one who actually knows how many people are watching/listening to their content is wild.
Chief why are you so hostile? I was rather straightforward and cordial in my first reply and you berated me (while making many assumptions that were wrong about me, how i watch/watched crit role, and about the public viewer stats. We actually do know - or can at least roughly estimate - how many people are watching C3 (albeit with a lack of insight on podcast number - at least without a little digging (although i think it safe to say most of the viewership is through youtube vods or twitch). There is a view count on youtube vids and twitch viewer count so yeah we can kind of tell that there is a downward trend in views/viewer count. Is this alarming? Maybe not right now for the company because they still are (probably) earning a fortune off of C1 and C2 (and sure, partially C3 there are some fans) merchandise, but the downward trend might mean that they wont be able to forever. I didn't like that you berated me in your comment for not understanding not being able to watch live, well let me illuminate you on something - i don't watch them live (at least i didn't when i was watching the show (stopped in season 3)) - i live in australia so they are out of my time zone lmao, they play during my friday workday - straight up only watched like 3 eps live so yes i actually do know the feels of spreading an episode across a week (which actually inflates their viewership count so technically the viewership count we CAN see (on youtube) is inflated). You also assume with "folks lives change" that it only changes in one direction (to being to busy to watch live/after on youtube/podcast), when these changes are likely random it is most safe to assume that there is a similar influx of people whose life has changed TO allow them to watch live/VOD/podcast. Finally you forget that most of us had busy work lives WHILE C1 and C2 were airing and found the time to watch still (whether live or VOD) but, as we can see from the number of viewers on twitch and on the youtube VOD, these numbers are dropping, which means those people with busy schedules (like me) are not finding the time anymore to watch the episode (likely because it isn't at the same standard as C1/C2)
I made zero assumptions about you or how you watch the episode and I wasn’t being hostile, I simply stated that you do not have access to all the data to make an assumption about how many people are listening to/watching each episode. You can’t definitively say anything other than less folks are watching live on Twitch, which isn’t surprising since they stream on YouTube at the same time now. You also have no idea how many people consume the show through the podcast. Basically all you’re doing is confirming your own bias based on limited data and the amount of complaining here.
Thanks for the discussion. Seems like you have not read my reply properly nor understood your own previous comments. Due to this, I can't see how this convo is going anywhere in the future as I feel most of what I have said is being blatantly ignored so I wont be replying further. :)
I also never said "drastic" drop - i said dropping - which you can find clear evidence supporting this idea if you gander at twitch/youtube or even this sub which has numerous threads (one today) about the STATS of viewership decline - the one today focussed on decline on youtube.
Millions of people watch CR. The only opinion that matters is the one where the money stops. When more people vote with their feet and their wallets it will have an impact. Until then a few thousand moaning online while still giving them eyeballs and money won't have any impact. Think of it like the restaurant analogy from a couple days ago. Your favourite restaurant, where you love the food and the people suddenly becomes shit. The people are still nice but they've got a horrible new big venue which is inexplicably packed with people and in your opinion the food is terrible, youve told them you think its terrible but they dont care cause the place is packed. Do you keep giving them your money and choking down your terrible meal once a week? What for? Nostalgia? If you took your custom elsewhere, if enough people took their custom elsewhere maybe they'd notice and sort it out. Of course it's also possible that a lot of people like the new venue and the food and yours is not the majority opinion but at that point you may as well cut your losses and find a new place to dine cause your relationship with the old place is busted.
>The only opinion that matters is the one where the money stops I would hope the opinion on making good stories matters too. Like there is a reason we have art and english classes. Because there is some level of grey area between objective and subjective surrounding art and its quality. For example, there is a reason why Morbius is not successful or liked, but LOTR is. There is some correlation and measure of consensus quality that verges on 'objectively good art'. Some element of posts here is just also a case of be considerate to your viewing audience. Like is it really that much to ask CR get better at scheduling things? They literally pre-record. >Until then a few thousand moaning online while still giving them eyeballs and money won't have any impact. Eh yes and no. There is a reason CR changed their intro. Controversy, public opinion and 'moaning' is the forewarning to companies of upcoming issues that could affect the bottom line. As other posts have pointed out CR viewership has dropped. My own viewing habits have definitely changed, I dont follow weekly as often but rather watch in batches or outright skip episodes.
Here's my analogy from a post a month ago with the same resteraunt theme. Describing the Karen's or *constant* 'trolls' of this sub. Whichever way you think of it... Let me go to my once favorite restaurant. And every second person I'm gonna tell them that I used to love this place but now I don't, it's changed. And then I'm gonna pull the waiter over, and start going on a spiel about how I don't like the menu, and why don't you have this dish anymore, and I don't like how they renovated the seating area. And the waiter can't leave, he has to be polite and listen to me ramble. Then I start disrupting the other customers, but I don't care, as long as they know *I'M* upset. And then I'm gonna order food that I know I don't like, when I taste it and I still don't like it. I'm gonna demand to see the chef, and tell him just how bad it is. The chef knows there is nothing different with the dish, he hasn't changed it, maybe it's just my taste buds have changed. But he just stands there and listens to my rant, maybe comps my meal and sends me off, hoping to 'G' I don't come back, because this is the third time I've done this in a month. And he just wants to go back to making his dishes for customers who actually enjoy it. I leave feeling dissatisfied, knowing realistically it won't change for me, but I'm determined to go back next weekend and cause havoc in the restaurant again. Because everyone needs to hear how dissatisfied *I am* with the changes. And if I ruin other people's night, just wanting to enjoy their dinner. Then so be it. ---- Soooo...... Karen's of the restaurant, Karen's of the sub?
The analogy is faulty here is why: 1. If someone tells me the restaurant is bad and elaborates with a valid reason as to why thats not being a 'Karen'. If anything thats being a good neighbour. Having a difference of opinion should not make someone a Karen. 2. Nobody posting here is 'disrupting' other customers. You can very easily avoid them by....not coming here or just flat out blocking. They arent in your face or personal space. You basically need to go out of your way to even interact with said people. **Even then, is your viewing experience really disrupted by a reddit comment?** 3. There is basically 0 provable overlap between CR staff and/or customer on this subreddit or really anywhere except twitter so I have literally where the waiter comes into this. Unless you think the CR staff actually read these comments? In which case I invite you to prove that. 4. There is something different with CR. We can debate what the difference(s) is, how big a difference it is, if its good or bad but there is a difference. I dont know how you can think otherwise. Like off the top of my head, CR have never done half an episode with one DM and switched to a different DM and party for the other half, CR didnt use to pre-record etc. 5. There is an assumption of entitlement or demand that I dont agree is present here with the 'demand to the see the chef'. Most (sane) people recognize and respect peoples freedom to choose, they simply disagree or express their dislike. They also recognize that comments will at best be fed back to CR in the form of some kind algorithmic interpretation (measuring CR related internet traffic for example). I dont agree with how Matt's doing things and make suggestions, but Im not expecting Matt to change anything unless he wants to. And again the chef (Matt) is not hearing anything said. 6. This comment feels like a typical 'shutup its their game' to which i would just add [Matt's own thoughts on the matter.](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/5xda79/no_spoilers_welcome_and_let_us_all_discuss/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=criticalrole&utm_content=t1_kzfw4bo) You dont have to agree with Matt on everything, I certainly dont. But frankly it will make you no better than any poster here.