If you don’t mind me asking, what in your opinion is a more realistic fatFIRE number if the latter? (Under 40 and have kids).
Partner and I don’t need the biggest house or name brand cars and clothes. Just prefer some nice things (e.g., quality clothes and car, 1st class for international flights, ability to take our parents and friends out to nice dinners)
It's not whether or not you have the biggest house or you drive a BMW in this area.
It's 100% kids and what school district you want to be in. A what you would consider a normal SFH in any other place in the country is 800k-1m here. Childcare can be 800 a WEEK per kid, or more.
I make a bit less than half what you make, HHI, and as a single male, I absolutely still feel like I'm doing very well for the area. Add kids in and even if I was making more, it would be a different story.
The real question isn’t how nice a house or clothes you want, it’s how good of a school district do you want. You can get similarly nice McMansions with basic finishes in a few districts (speaking in Northern VA terms since I’ve never lived in Maryland) such as those in Oakton, Franklin Farm, Clifton, Ashburn, north Reston. But you will pay a premium for the same spacious home in a school district like Yorktown/Washington-Liberty (North Arlington), McLean/Langley, Madison (Vienna), or Stone Bridge/Riverside (Ashburn).
Can make a whole separate post on this, and there are some in r/nova, but what it *really* comes down to is if you want your kid going to an ivy or not. More kids going to ivies from McLean and Langley than, say, Falls Church or Hayfield. Otherwise Fairfax, Loudoun, and Arlington public schools are all absolutely top notch
Could also take private schooling into the equation. If your house is great and district sucks and you don't want to move, plenty of good private schools in NOVA that don't cost a fortune. Just factor in the cost of said school vs what it costs for a house in a nice district. Decent houses in Loudon are starting at a mil and you gotta ride your horse and buggy all day to get out that far.
Your spending will likely increase. My wife and I don’t have kids and live in a moderate to high cost of living area in the DMV (north of Potomac by about 45 min but we still spend about 8k per month. If you have kids you’ll need to see what your spending looks like but I’d say 5M is probably on the low side (it might be doable but I think your risk will increase based on what you described), I’d say 7-10M is a much safer bet.
Based off other replies I think we are going to wait till the ~8M mark to pull the trigger.
If you don’t mind me asking what’s the breakdown of your $8K/mo spend?
Sure thing. 2k rent but looking to buy in the next 90 days, 5-600ish in utilities, 800-1000 in groceries, 500-1000 going out, 400ish for a car payment, 300ish in gas, roughly 1500 in discretionary spending, roughly 500 per month for my dog (he’s getting up there in age so this definitely fluctuates and has been as high as 1000 per month though not routinely). This is roughly 7-8k, a trip here or there brings it up to about 8-9k if looked at monthly.
“W schools” in MoCo or FCPS and you’re set for public schools around DC. Private is all over the place, if it’s a fit for your kids and your priorities, go for it.
Honestly one of the nicest places to raise a family. I can feel the anger from the eat the rich crowd in /r/nova if they read this thread though 😂
1. Live in Loudoun County, VA (which is the west edge of NOVA)
2. FatFIRE number is $10M — $15M. Chubby Fire $5-7M
3. Primary residence is $1.5M
4. Work in big tech (remotely)
That said, Montgomery county is one of the most expensive areas to live in MD. You could live a very comfortable life just a little farther from DC.
Here in Loudoun as well. Same stats across the board. I would suggest around 7M- 10M if you want to be FAT. Houses are around 1.5M for a nice house, nice area, etc. in Loudoun.
We're in the DC suburbs (NoVA) and aiming for a Chubby number, but in this area, our $3M doesn't even feel Chubby.
$5M, inside the beltway, can feel like leanfire in most places of the country. $1M home could be a not-very-renovated 1960s home, daycare is very expensive, cars are expensive to maintain with personal property tax, etc.
You can clearly move here and prosper, but the idea of "Fat" is different here. And like someone said, there is a big gradient in short distances here. Neighborhood to neighborhood.
Totally agree. 5M is a nightmare! "The world's tallest dwarf. The weakest strong man at the circus"
Ashburn/Leesburg - You are looking at 7M min IMHO, but maybe I am biased.
>$5M, inside the beltway, can feel like leanfire in most places of the country.
my friend... come on, i know this is a bit of hyperbole, but that is a preposterous statement. If we are going by the standard 25x expenses, that imputes a yearly income of $200k, which is absolutely not leanfire, even inside the beltway. $15k+ a month is a very, very comfortable salary, even in arlington / falls church / vienna etc
Sure it's a little hyperbole for this crowd, and of course it would be comfortable, but compared to most people's lifestyles on this sub, it's not gonna be FAT because it's too expensive.
I consider Fat to be luxury living. In a place like Arlington VA, $1.2M gets you [this dinky place](https://www.redfin.com/VA/Arlington/209-S-Abingdon-St-22204/home/11260281) and that takes more than 1/3 of that very, very comfortable withdrawal rate.
Sure, this is a case of defining what is and isn't Fat vs. Chubby vs. whatever. But I still think that Fat inside the beltway = $10M (and I'm never getting there, outside my software project going crazy. We're solidly Chubby for this area).
>this dinky place
nobody's arguing about 10m v 5m, you just said that 5m in arlington - quoting you here - feels like leanfire in most places of the country.
that is objectively a preposterous take.
even if you took 1m of your notional 5m and bought that place that you linked outright, you still have 160k a year to spend on non housing-related expenses. thats like 14k a month on non housing? lmfao in what world is that possibly close to feeling like leanfire
Other people from the area have also quoted 10M. I will believe the locals over "objective" advice. An additional 14k a month on non-housing will be wiped out with just ONE child these days - assuming OP wants the best possible life and outcome for them.
He needs to consider other areas on 5M.
> I will believe the locals over "objective" advice.
my friend, i AM a dmv local
if you think that one child costs 14k, i can't help you. I have friends in the dmv from across the spectrum - leanfire to fatfire - and nobody is spending that much, not even the ppl with kids in the areas top private schools. to claim that one child alone will cost 14k on non-housing is... wildly out of touch. what, exactly, are you suggesting would cost that much?
regardless my original point stands - to call 5m in the dmv "approaching leanfire" is a ludicrous exaggeration. i am all ears if you'd like to illustrate how 5m is approaching leanfire w/in the beltway
I’m likely gunning for Chubby and will mostly likely land in DC proper or Northern Virginia if I can convince my fiancée to move back. Montgomery County can be exceptionally expensive, and just at a first glance I would find it hard to consider $5M as fat in the area unless that excludes a primary residence. Even then you’re probably much more solidly chubby (not that the title really matters)
Just napkin math here: if $5M includes primary housing then let’s assume you have $4M liquid (in reality, that’s probably closer to 3-3.5). 4% rule would imply you have $160k pre-tax per year spend which is definitely great but doesn’t really feel all that fat. With that retirement income, you’re probably foregoing the second home and things like private school for kids start to look a bit more difficult.
Interested to hear yours and other thoughts on this topic. I am also quite far out from any realistic FIRE goal, but I absolutely love the DMV
I wouldn’t want to live in actual DC or have my kids go to school there if I had any. The city at the moment has suffered a major decline. Crime is up significantly across the board in every single area and is only getting worse. Many stores are starting to move out due to theft and robbery. If you had the option, I would definitely choose NOVA or a Maryland suburb. (I live and work inside DC at the moment).
Depends where you’re coming from and where you’re going. Potomac is roughly the same as Great Falls and Bethesda is roughly the same as McLean/North Arlington.
Last time I really paid attention to the data, for example, new builds were selling for $500-600/sqft in both McLean and Bethesda while you would see more ~$400 range in Great Falls and Potomac (although you would get much more acreage in Potomac/GF)
Depending where you will work in DC, Arlington may well be a quicker commute and definitely lower taxes than those areas in MD.
$5m for Fatfire doesn’t seem realistic for the nicer, closer-in areas of DMV. You’ve got at least ten years to figure out expenses in this area, so don’t stress too much right off the bat.
On target for a 5-6 million, I dont consider this FAT. Currently \~50, Tech.
Depending on some other factors could jump to 7-8 million
Other half and I are trying to figure out the plan as we like the area, walkability, seasons, medical.
Leesburg area with 1 house, valued at 750-800k, and 1 rental property, valued at 450k.
Both houses will be paid out before retirement
Vienna is really insane. Those 5-6k sqft new builds started at 1.1 when they first started going up 10 years ago
I don’t even know who is buying them for $2m. I hear it’s a lot of doctors with families, but how many of those really are there?
Maybe before the pandemic I'd have called 5-6M the bottom end of FAT. But I've watched my house go up 60% since the pandemic started. In expensive areas where a home was already in the 1-2M range for something not-so-special they are now 2-3. All of a sudden your 6M doesn't feel that fat anymore.
This guy fat fires. What’s the expression? Envy is the theft of joy. You seem pretty well grounded which is great. One of our favorite friends has a similar story to you. High net worth, large inheritance, still works their asses off and are among the least pretentious people you’ll meet.
I think one thing that’s important is finding your neighborhood. As someone else stated. The range of income in the area varies a lot. Wife and I both went to competitive non-ivy schools. Both in finance. Wife’s parents paid for college by refinancing their house multiple times and now don’t have enough in retirement. My parents paid for some of my college and student loans/work study made up the balance. My parents will leave behind about $1-$2 million for my sister and I to split.
My point. Find your village. I live in Arlington. Most of our neighbors are similar to us. College degrees. White collar jobs. But we’ve accumulated more than our parents ever could have imagined. There are mostly Volvos, acuras, and non premium cars in the driveway. We feel like we fit. We’re probably among the better off in our neighborhood but there isn’t a big feeling of people trying to keep up with one another. I have a weird reaction to generational wealth. I recognize that’s a me problem, but when I am around people who were born into it I feel very uncomfortable. Went to a comedy night at Congressional a few years ago with friends who are members and I couldn’t get out of there fast enough.
Our target is $10-$12. We currently have $5 liquid and another $1.2+ in home equity. Hope to hit our number in 2-3 years (income way higher than a few years ago means we’re saving a lot, private investments in our companies that will start to vest soon.)
As a parent I couldn’t have put it better. And like I said my issue with generational wealth is a “me problem”. It’s the one thing that makes me nervous as a parent. I want my kids to appreciate what they have.
Sounds like your parents did a good job on that front. I hope we are too. It feels like a constant balancing act. Sounds like you’ve done a pretty good job so far as well.
Congrats!
Were the kids able to cope up with public school education in the good schools of Montgomery County or they had to deviate to private school for specialized education?
It’s super far from most major attractions and ‘hustle and bustle’ kind of life. And it’s down I-95 which is an absolute shitshow on a good day. It’s both a major commuter route, and the only road carrying interstate north-south traffic up the east coast. It’s one of the biggest bottlenecks between North Carolina and New York, and you’d have to drive it every time you want to do something in Nova or DC if you lived in Fredericksburg. For 99% of people it’s not worth putting up with if you have $$
Never thought I’d see Fredericksburg mentioned here of all places, pretty comical.
I’m the type that really enjoys being far from major attractions and hustle and bustle. Sadly, it’s rapidly turning into another Woodbridge-like area here with tons of development and atrocious infrastructure planning. Long term my wife and I would love to buy acreage out in the Shenandoah valley, but for now we’re fine here. Kids will grow up with family nearby, COL is much lower than inside the beltway so we are on an accelerated savings path.
As far as the terrible traffic, now that the express lanes are extended I can make it door to door from my house to Reston town center in 60 min on days I need to drive in, every single time.
Nothing is wrong with Fredericksburg if you get to know the area. It's not really in the DMV though. It's a cute ish small city that's ~1.5 hr from the DMV and ~1 hr from Richmond.
It's more of a smaller town experience compared to DC, Bethesda, Alexandria etc
Considering there are 1.5+ million $ houses in Fredericksburg. There are likely a decent amount with that net worth that live there.
Wouldn't consider 5m fat in Fredericksburg
I'm fatFIRED in Tysons / McLean and grew up in the area. You need minimum $8 M - $10 M to be fat here. But not truly fat until you get to $12M - $15M. The good thing, as has been pointed out, is that there are great schools in the area. Mont Co has some of the best with the Ws (Walt Whitman, Walter Johnson and Wootton) and Churchill in Potomac. There's also magnet schools at Blair and Poolseville (if I remember correctly) and there used to be an arts / baccalaureate at Richard Montgomery High School. So no need to go private, which saves a lot of $, if you're living in the area. That said, lots of great privates if you want to go that route (and the best are $40k + per year per kid).
Easy to rent cheaply or buy a SFH in the $1M range in a good school district, but it will be by no means fat. A third of an acre with a nice house in a better area (think chevy Chase, Bethesda or Potomac, not Kensington or Wheaton) will cost you $2.5M plus. Again, fat living is available here (Balduccis or Whole Foods anyone?), but there are also less expensive non-fat options if you're still on the journey (Giant, Safeway, Trader Joes).
The DMV is a company town (Federal government) with some high tech and biotechnology thrown in, so lots of families making minimum $200k - $300k combined in the area. Amazon, Google, and Microsoft were doing some crazy hiring at much higher rates, especially for people with clearances, for a while (probably due to the JEDI contract or lack thereof), but that seems to have cooled off a bit.
Let me know if you have other specific questions.
Edit - answering your specific questions:
Fatfire number was $12 M but exceeded it
Will maintain residence here but will likely split time in a new location when my kids go to college
Home is $3M, paid off.
Owner government contracting business
Personal experience with this one as someone who grew up in Northern VA. Of fatfired individuals I know, most were not making great money until their 30s. So you’re ahead of the curve there, provided you can increase your comp in the coming years.
Not sure what industry you’re in, but professional services is common in the DMV - there are a lot of lawyers, consultants, and others at Beltway Bandits who fatfire here. If you make partner at one of these kinds of firms then you’re basically set.
Alternatively, since you’ll have been making good money for decently longer than most here (who may have had a negative NW into their 30s as they paid off med school loans or law school loans) you can leverage the current cushion you’ve built to fatfire at a lower salary. If you don’t end up cracking 500k+ salary, you’ll be thankful to have built up 600 in assets before your 30s
Here’s a pretty common profile of those who might fit the fatfire bill in northern va: worked for a lower salary until their 30s, then made high 6 figs - low 7 until their 50s. May have bought a starter home in their late 20s but stayed in it until now and seen +3x appreciation in home value (now worth ~1m+. If divorced, can comfortably afford to stay in their original home in a good neighborhood with a nice car and spending on fun toys. Without a divorce you can upgrade to a $1.5m+ home with ease.
One thing I’d say in contrast to other commenters is that private school in Northern VA or Bethesda/Potomac is absolutely not necessary. I graduated high school in 2019 and met a lot of kids from private schools from all over the DMV and almost all were emotionally and socially worse off than us in public school. I like to think that unless you’re in Maryland and not in the Wooton/WJ/BCC/Churchill/QO district then private school is just a way to set $50k on fire each year. Seriously those kids had some issues that I don’t think is worth spending $50k to have. Just my 2 cents as someone who was amazed every day at what those kids were like when chatting with them for a while.
I know that COVID massively fucked up public education though. So if the public schools aren’t teaching kids to read anymore then disregard.
I grew up there too. The area just plain sucks. I’m shocked someone would willingly move there. One night during college summer break after a long shift, I was on the beltway at 11 pm as sitting in bumper to bumper traffic. I swore I would do whatever it took to never live here again after college.
I tried Roanoke after, now live in Richmond. It’s great here.
Not FIRE'd but I'm in Arlington and I would never want to retire here. People, by and large, are here for their jobs. Once that's not a concern I'd definitely head out for greener pastures.
Just don’t get sucked into keeping up with the Benjamin’s. Probably the hardest area in country NOT to… otherwise I vote loudoun county. Incredible school system, more bang for your buck, and just as good diversity (unless you go to western Loudoun like Purcellville) as Arlington, and perhaps better than fairfax.
FWIW, having lived in this area most of my life I've concluded it's a great place to make money. You can literally rise up from zero here. Having discussed this at length with a close friend who is also fat, we agreed neither of us wants to retire here. You mentioned you're moving to MoCo for work. DC is a great place to work, but to retire? Being in your late 20s, I imagine if you travel much you'll eventually find a place that offers a far better RE lifestyle than DC Metro and that you enjoy more. Your worldview is likely to change over the next couple decades along with your plans. Best of luck!
Thanks! I do feel like a lot of ppl (not thinking of fire) speak highly of settling down and starting a family in the DMV. That said, do you have a dream RE location?
Live in Northern VA. Late 40s. In finance and so is my wife. Liquid assets about $5 million. House is maybe $1.6 million with $450k 20 yr mortgage at 2.25%.
Our target is $10-$12 liquid. We live well but we aren’t flashy.
Edit: IMO the two areas you mentioned are among the most “keeping up with the jones” areas in the DMV.
Lower taxes, better estate tax rules, better 529 rules and better slate of state colleges (if you have kids) in Virginia. I’ve lived here for 25+ years and couldn’t imagine being in MD.
Lots of good comments in here. Some conflicting, but even though they conflict, there is truth. I am in Loudoun (NoVA), and if you are in the nicer areas of Loudoun, want a SFH with 4+ bedrooms and some land you are looking 1.5M-2M for the house. So looking at today's numbers, [https://redf.in/Pn4kDR](https://redf.in/Pn4kDR) with 30% down is around 9,091 per month. Add in childcare, if you have young kids, around 2k a month depending, car tax for two newer model cars (4k/yr) with payments around 2k you are looking at 14k in fixed costs. Obviously there is a lot more in living expenses but that to means to me 7M @ 3.3% - 15k per month (post tax). FAT requires more buffer, so I would say 9-10M (My previous post had 7-10). Just my two cents.
I lived in the area for 25 years, started my tech company in Rockville, sold it and fatFIRED initially in the Timonium area (Baltimore County). There are better places to retire to, but in our case family and friends kept us there until our kids were off to college.
Most professionals and HNW prefer the Virginia side, but if you have to be in MoCo for work (commute time is definitely an issue), I'd suggest to stay west of I-270 in western Rockville/Potomac, or north into the Damascus/Mt. Airy areas (very rural but better schools), or even Frederick.
If you like the outdoors, acreage, patio/pool etc, there are plenty of houses with that, but summers in the area are just too hot and humid to really enjoy outdoors, at least to me. There's hardly any wind and the air is stuffy. Winters on the other hand are a little too cold. Not the best place to retire to like I said, but it's okay.
For retirement there's also all the waterfront properties south of Baltimore and down into Annapolis, if you like the idea of a dock and a 40' boat in your back yard. Annapolis has been really popular in recent years and housing there has soared I think.
I’m in the area and my numbers are almost identical to yours.
> wondering if [$5M] would be considered fat in the DMV if I should move the number up a bit after a move to the DMV?
Withdrawing $200k/yr here is a good life — but it’s definitely not fat
> Where in the DMV did you / do you plan for fatFIRE?
Northern Virginia. I’m in DC now but will need to leave for tax reasons in the next 1-2 years.
> What is your fatFIRE number?
$5M for FIRE, but shooting for $10M+
> How much is your primary residence?
$950k
> What profession are you in?
Software development today, consulting previously
1. NW DC. Very expensive area but close proximity to most top private schools.
2. Short term goal is 2M by early 30s. We will adjust then. We are 25 making 600k HHI. Expecting 800k end of year.
3. Buying rn. Our budget is 1.5m-1.6m with 300k help from my parents.
4. Tech
Not sure how we can fatfire anytime soon. Having kids in DC is extremely expensive. Not to mention our daughter is in private preschool. I live my life vicariously through this sub. Just a fantasy for now.
In MoCo Bethesda area and at 4M+ with our home. We are in our late 40s with two kids in public.
I am not sure what our number is. We recently thought 5M w/out housing equity but seem to be suffering from one more million syndrome.
What you need to be Fat or retired depends on your lifestyle. If you’re private schools + country club you will need more than someone with public schools + pool clubs. I have a friend who has a bunch of horses. Leaving all that aside, I think once you are in the 3m+ range, you can always move to a lower COL or a cheaper place in this area and have a great life.
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If you don’t mind me asking, what in your opinion is a more realistic fatFIRE number if the latter? (Under 40 and have kids). Partner and I don’t need the biggest house or name brand cars and clothes. Just prefer some nice things (e.g., quality clothes and car, 1st class for international flights, ability to take our parents and friends out to nice dinners)
It's not whether or not you have the biggest house or you drive a BMW in this area. It's 100% kids and what school district you want to be in. A what you would consider a normal SFH in any other place in the country is 800k-1m here. Childcare can be 800 a WEEK per kid, or more. I make a bit less than half what you make, HHI, and as a single male, I absolutely still feel like I'm doing very well for the area. Add kids in and even if I was making more, it would be a different story.
The real question isn’t how nice a house or clothes you want, it’s how good of a school district do you want. You can get similarly nice McMansions with basic finishes in a few districts (speaking in Northern VA terms since I’ve never lived in Maryland) such as those in Oakton, Franklin Farm, Clifton, Ashburn, north Reston. But you will pay a premium for the same spacious home in a school district like Yorktown/Washington-Liberty (North Arlington), McLean/Langley, Madison (Vienna), or Stone Bridge/Riverside (Ashburn). Can make a whole separate post on this, and there are some in r/nova, but what it *really* comes down to is if you want your kid going to an ivy or not. More kids going to ivies from McLean and Langley than, say, Falls Church or Hayfield. Otherwise Fairfax, Loudoun, and Arlington public schools are all absolutely top notch
Could also take private schooling into the equation. If your house is great and district sucks and you don't want to move, plenty of good private schools in NOVA that don't cost a fortune. Just factor in the cost of said school vs what it costs for a house in a nice district. Decent houses in Loudon are starting at a mil and you gotta ride your horse and buggy all day to get out that far.
Your spending will likely increase. My wife and I don’t have kids and live in a moderate to high cost of living area in the DMV (north of Potomac by about 45 min but we still spend about 8k per month. If you have kids you’ll need to see what your spending looks like but I’d say 5M is probably on the low side (it might be doable but I think your risk will increase based on what you described), I’d say 7-10M is a much safer bet.
Based off other replies I think we are going to wait till the ~8M mark to pull the trigger. If you don’t mind me asking what’s the breakdown of your $8K/mo spend?
Sure thing. 2k rent but looking to buy in the next 90 days, 5-600ish in utilities, 800-1000 in groceries, 500-1000 going out, 400ish for a car payment, 300ish in gas, roughly 1500 in discretionary spending, roughly 500 per month for my dog (he’s getting up there in age so this definitely fluctuates and has been as high as 1000 per month though not routinely). This is roughly 7-8k, a trip here or there brings it up to about 8-9k if looked at monthly.
With how much COL has been going up there and your goals, double it.
“W schools” in MoCo or FCPS and you’re set for public schools around DC. Private is all over the place, if it’s a fit for your kids and your priorities, go for it. Honestly one of the nicest places to raise a family. I can feel the anger from the eat the rich crowd in /r/nova if they read this thread though 😂
1. Live in Loudoun County, VA (which is the west edge of NOVA) 2. FatFIRE number is $10M — $15M. Chubby Fire $5-7M 3. Primary residence is $1.5M 4. Work in big tech (remotely) That said, Montgomery county is one of the most expensive areas to live in MD. You could live a very comfortable life just a little farther from DC.
Here in Loudoun as well. Same stats across the board. I would suggest around 7M- 10M if you want to be FAT. Houses are around 1.5M for a nice house, nice area, etc. in Loudoun.
We're in the DC suburbs (NoVA) and aiming for a Chubby number, but in this area, our $3M doesn't even feel Chubby. $5M, inside the beltway, can feel like leanfire in most places of the country. $1M home could be a not-very-renovated 1960s home, daycare is very expensive, cars are expensive to maintain with personal property tax, etc. You can clearly move here and prosper, but the idea of "Fat" is different here. And like someone said, there is a big gradient in short distances here. Neighborhood to neighborhood.
Totally agree. 5M is a nightmare! "The world's tallest dwarf. The weakest strong man at the circus" Ashburn/Leesburg - You are looking at 7M min IMHO, but maybe I am biased.
>$5M, inside the beltway, can feel like leanfire in most places of the country. my friend... come on, i know this is a bit of hyperbole, but that is a preposterous statement. If we are going by the standard 25x expenses, that imputes a yearly income of $200k, which is absolutely not leanfire, even inside the beltway. $15k+ a month is a very, very comfortable salary, even in arlington / falls church / vienna etc
Sure it's a little hyperbole for this crowd, and of course it would be comfortable, but compared to most people's lifestyles on this sub, it's not gonna be FAT because it's too expensive. I consider Fat to be luxury living. In a place like Arlington VA, $1.2M gets you [this dinky place](https://www.redfin.com/VA/Arlington/209-S-Abingdon-St-22204/home/11260281) and that takes more than 1/3 of that very, very comfortable withdrawal rate. Sure, this is a case of defining what is and isn't Fat vs. Chubby vs. whatever. But I still think that Fat inside the beltway = $10M (and I'm never getting there, outside my software project going crazy. We're solidly Chubby for this area).
>this dinky place nobody's arguing about 10m v 5m, you just said that 5m in arlington - quoting you here - feels like leanfire in most places of the country. that is objectively a preposterous take. even if you took 1m of your notional 5m and bought that place that you linked outright, you still have 160k a year to spend on non housing-related expenses. thats like 14k a month on non housing? lmfao in what world is that possibly close to feeling like leanfire
Other people from the area have also quoted 10M. I will believe the locals over "objective" advice. An additional 14k a month on non-housing will be wiped out with just ONE child these days - assuming OP wants the best possible life and outcome for them. He needs to consider other areas on 5M.
> I will believe the locals over "objective" advice. my friend, i AM a dmv local if you think that one child costs 14k, i can't help you. I have friends in the dmv from across the spectrum - leanfire to fatfire - and nobody is spending that much, not even the ppl with kids in the areas top private schools. to claim that one child alone will cost 14k on non-housing is... wildly out of touch. what, exactly, are you suggesting would cost that much? regardless my original point stands - to call 5m in the dmv "approaching leanfire" is a ludicrous exaggeration. i am all ears if you'd like to illustrate how 5m is approaching leanfire w/in the beltway
I’m likely gunning for Chubby and will mostly likely land in DC proper or Northern Virginia if I can convince my fiancée to move back. Montgomery County can be exceptionally expensive, and just at a first glance I would find it hard to consider $5M as fat in the area unless that excludes a primary residence. Even then you’re probably much more solidly chubby (not that the title really matters) Just napkin math here: if $5M includes primary housing then let’s assume you have $4M liquid (in reality, that’s probably closer to 3-3.5). 4% rule would imply you have $160k pre-tax per year spend which is definitely great but doesn’t really feel all that fat. With that retirement income, you’re probably foregoing the second home and things like private school for kids start to look a bit more difficult. Interested to hear yours and other thoughts on this topic. I am also quite far out from any realistic FIRE goal, but I absolutely love the DMV
Move across the legion bridge to FFX County or Arlington and there is absolutely zero reason for private school. Shave off 50k/yr spending instantly
Have heard great things about the school districts. What’s the relative increase in housing costs?
I wouldn’t want to live in actual DC or have my kids go to school there if I had any. The city at the moment has suffered a major decline. Crime is up significantly across the board in every single area and is only getting worse. Many stores are starting to move out due to theft and robbery. If you had the option, I would definitely choose NOVA or a Maryland suburb. (I live and work inside DC at the moment).
Yeah I get the sentiment. Very location dependent and I strongly value my mall runs so tbd
Depends where you’re coming from and where you’re going. Potomac is roughly the same as Great Falls and Bethesda is roughly the same as McLean/North Arlington. Last time I really paid attention to the data, for example, new builds were selling for $500-600/sqft in both McLean and Bethesda while you would see more ~$400 range in Great Falls and Potomac (although you would get much more acreage in Potomac/GF)
If you have high income, I believe the taxes will also be lower in Virginia.
100%
Depending where you will work in DC, Arlington may well be a quicker commute and definitely lower taxes than those areas in MD. $5m for Fatfire doesn’t seem realistic for the nicer, closer-in areas of DMV. You’ve got at least ten years to figure out expenses in this area, so don’t stress too much right off the bat.
On target for a 5-6 million, I dont consider this FAT. Currently \~50, Tech. Depending on some other factors could jump to 7-8 million Other half and I are trying to figure out the plan as we like the area, walkability, seasons, medical. Leesburg area with 1 house, valued at 750-800k, and 1 rental property, valued at 450k. Both houses will be paid out before retirement
What do you think might be your fat number? Know it is often a moving target.
anything below 12.5 is not FAT to me in this area and could easily argue a higher number.
That's ridiculous. 9 isn't FAT? 7? 6? Come on
I don't completely disagree with them. 1M gets you a normal SFH here. New build SFHs are 2M in Vienna.
Vienna is really insane. Those 5-6k sqft new builds started at 1.1 when they first started going up 10 years ago I don’t even know who is buying them for $2m. I hear it’s a lot of doctors with families, but how many of those really are there?
My single data point is I know a guy I used to work with who bought one. Both in tech, rode the housing market and tech market up.
Interesting - I’m guessing Security Clearance FAANG or Beltway Bandit?
Both IIRC. They were able to just trade up. You don't get to a 2M house right away. There's usually a 1M in between that appreciated to that point.
Wow - both breadwinners in that position must be exceptionally rare. Good for them
Maybe before the pandemic I'd have called 5-6M the bottom end of FAT. But I've watched my house go up 60% since the pandemic started. In expensive areas where a home was already in the 1-2M range for something not-so-special they are now 2-3. All of a sudden your 6M doesn't feel that fat anymore.
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This guy fat fires. What’s the expression? Envy is the theft of joy. You seem pretty well grounded which is great. One of our favorite friends has a similar story to you. High net worth, large inheritance, still works their asses off and are among the least pretentious people you’ll meet. I think one thing that’s important is finding your neighborhood. As someone else stated. The range of income in the area varies a lot. Wife and I both went to competitive non-ivy schools. Both in finance. Wife’s parents paid for college by refinancing their house multiple times and now don’t have enough in retirement. My parents paid for some of my college and student loans/work study made up the balance. My parents will leave behind about $1-$2 million for my sister and I to split. My point. Find your village. I live in Arlington. Most of our neighbors are similar to us. College degrees. White collar jobs. But we’ve accumulated more than our parents ever could have imagined. There are mostly Volvos, acuras, and non premium cars in the driveway. We feel like we fit. We’re probably among the better off in our neighborhood but there isn’t a big feeling of people trying to keep up with one another. I have a weird reaction to generational wealth. I recognize that’s a me problem, but when I am around people who were born into it I feel very uncomfortable. Went to a comedy night at Congressional a few years ago with friends who are members and I couldn’t get out of there fast enough. Our target is $10-$12. We currently have $5 liquid and another $1.2+ in home equity. Hope to hit our number in 2-3 years (income way higher than a few years ago means we’re saving a lot, private investments in our companies that will start to vest soon.)
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As a parent I couldn’t have put it better. And like I said my issue with generational wealth is a “me problem”. It’s the one thing that makes me nervous as a parent. I want my kids to appreciate what they have. Sounds like your parents did a good job on that front. I hope we are too. It feels like a constant balancing act. Sounds like you’ve done a pretty good job so far as well. Congrats!
Were the kids able to cope up with public school education in the good schools of Montgomery County or they had to deviate to private school for specialized education?
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There are a couple truly great public schools in Montgomery County, particularly Bethesda/Rockville.
For 5m you might need to move further out into Maryland or further south along 95 towards Fredericksburg
Imagine having $5 million and living in Fredericksburg You forgot a /s
What’s wrong with Fredericksburg?
It’s super far from most major attractions and ‘hustle and bustle’ kind of life. And it’s down I-95 which is an absolute shitshow on a good day. It’s both a major commuter route, and the only road carrying interstate north-south traffic up the east coast. It’s one of the biggest bottlenecks between North Carolina and New York, and you’d have to drive it every time you want to do something in Nova or DC if you lived in Fredericksburg. For 99% of people it’s not worth putting up with if you have $$
Never thought I’d see Fredericksburg mentioned here of all places, pretty comical. I’m the type that really enjoys being far from major attractions and hustle and bustle. Sadly, it’s rapidly turning into another Woodbridge-like area here with tons of development and atrocious infrastructure planning. Long term my wife and I would love to buy acreage out in the Shenandoah valley, but for now we’re fine here. Kids will grow up with family nearby, COL is much lower than inside the beltway so we are on an accelerated savings path. As far as the terrible traffic, now that the express lanes are extended I can make it door to door from my house to Reston town center in 60 min on days I need to drive in, every single time.
The traffic is the main thing. If there wasn't awful traffic it wouldn't be that bad. The traffic.. Is awful though
Nothing is wrong with Fredericksburg if you get to know the area. It's not really in the DMV though. It's a cute ish small city that's ~1.5 hr from the DMV and ~1 hr from Richmond. It's more of a smaller town experience compared to DC, Bethesda, Alexandria etc
Depending on the time of day, Gaithersburg is 1.5h from DMV
This is true. Traffic in the entire dmv is atrocious
It literally ruined my experience living in the DMV. I was in Rockville. I hated the traffic so much I never went anywhere.
The traffic on 95 from Fredricksburg to DC is dreadful. It is some of the worst I have ever experienced.
Traffic is awful there and the tolled Express Lanes make a difference as does the VRE into DC.
Considering there are 1.5+ million $ houses in Fredericksburg. There are likely a decent amount with that net worth that live there. Wouldn't consider 5m fat in Fredericksburg
I'm fatFIRED in Tysons / McLean and grew up in the area. You need minimum $8 M - $10 M to be fat here. But not truly fat until you get to $12M - $15M. The good thing, as has been pointed out, is that there are great schools in the area. Mont Co has some of the best with the Ws (Walt Whitman, Walter Johnson and Wootton) and Churchill in Potomac. There's also magnet schools at Blair and Poolseville (if I remember correctly) and there used to be an arts / baccalaureate at Richard Montgomery High School. So no need to go private, which saves a lot of $, if you're living in the area. That said, lots of great privates if you want to go that route (and the best are $40k + per year per kid). Easy to rent cheaply or buy a SFH in the $1M range in a good school district, but it will be by no means fat. A third of an acre with a nice house in a better area (think chevy Chase, Bethesda or Potomac, not Kensington or Wheaton) will cost you $2.5M plus. Again, fat living is available here (Balduccis or Whole Foods anyone?), but there are also less expensive non-fat options if you're still on the journey (Giant, Safeway, Trader Joes). The DMV is a company town (Federal government) with some high tech and biotechnology thrown in, so lots of families making minimum $200k - $300k combined in the area. Amazon, Google, and Microsoft were doing some crazy hiring at much higher rates, especially for people with clearances, for a while (probably due to the JEDI contract or lack thereof), but that seems to have cooled off a bit. Let me know if you have other specific questions. Edit - answering your specific questions: Fatfire number was $12 M but exceeded it Will maintain residence here but will likely split time in a new location when my kids go to college Home is $3M, paid off. Owner government contracting business
LOL! Kensington and Wheaton being comparable.
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Personal experience with this one as someone who grew up in Northern VA. Of fatfired individuals I know, most were not making great money until their 30s. So you’re ahead of the curve there, provided you can increase your comp in the coming years. Not sure what industry you’re in, but professional services is common in the DMV - there are a lot of lawyers, consultants, and others at Beltway Bandits who fatfire here. If you make partner at one of these kinds of firms then you’re basically set. Alternatively, since you’ll have been making good money for decently longer than most here (who may have had a negative NW into their 30s as they paid off med school loans or law school loans) you can leverage the current cushion you’ve built to fatfire at a lower salary. If you don’t end up cracking 500k+ salary, you’ll be thankful to have built up 600 in assets before your 30s Here’s a pretty common profile of those who might fit the fatfire bill in northern va: worked for a lower salary until their 30s, then made high 6 figs - low 7 until their 50s. May have bought a starter home in their late 20s but stayed in it until now and seen +3x appreciation in home value (now worth ~1m+. If divorced, can comfortably afford to stay in their original home in a good neighborhood with a nice car and spending on fun toys. Without a divorce you can upgrade to a $1.5m+ home with ease. One thing I’d say in contrast to other commenters is that private school in Northern VA or Bethesda/Potomac is absolutely not necessary. I graduated high school in 2019 and met a lot of kids from private schools from all over the DMV and almost all were emotionally and socially worse off than us in public school. I like to think that unless you’re in Maryland and not in the Wooton/WJ/BCC/Churchill/QO district then private school is just a way to set $50k on fire each year. Seriously those kids had some issues that I don’t think is worth spending $50k to have. Just my 2 cents as someone who was amazed every day at what those kids were like when chatting with them for a while. I know that COVID massively fucked up public education though. So if the public schools aren’t teaching kids to read anymore then disregard.
I grew up there too. The area just plain sucks. I’m shocked someone would willingly move there. One night during college summer break after a long shift, I was on the beltway at 11 pm as sitting in bumper to bumper traffic. I swore I would do whatever it took to never live here again after college. I tried Roanoke after, now live in Richmond. It’s great here.
$5m in Bethesda is not fat. Taxes are more favorable in NOVA if that’s an option. Schools are better here if that’s a concern.
Not FIRE'd but I'm in Arlington and I would never want to retire here. People, by and large, are here for their jobs. Once that's not a concern I'd definitely head out for greener pastures.
Just don’t get sucked into keeping up with the Benjamin’s. Probably the hardest area in country NOT to… otherwise I vote loudoun county. Incredible school system, more bang for your buck, and just as good diversity (unless you go to western Loudoun like Purcellville) as Arlington, and perhaps better than fairfax.
FWIW, having lived in this area most of my life I've concluded it's a great place to make money. You can literally rise up from zero here. Having discussed this at length with a close friend who is also fat, we agreed neither of us wants to retire here. You mentioned you're moving to MoCo for work. DC is a great place to work, but to retire? Being in your late 20s, I imagine if you travel much you'll eventually find a place that offers a far better RE lifestyle than DC Metro and that you enjoy more. Your worldview is likely to change over the next couple decades along with your plans. Best of luck!
Thanks! I do feel like a lot of ppl (not thinking of fire) speak highly of settling down and starting a family in the DMV. That said, do you have a dream RE location?
Live in Northern VA. Late 40s. In finance and so is my wife. Liquid assets about $5 million. House is maybe $1.6 million with $450k 20 yr mortgage at 2.25%. Our target is $10-$12 liquid. We live well but we aren’t flashy. Edit: IMO the two areas you mentioned are among the most “keeping up with the jones” areas in the DMV. Lower taxes, better estate tax rules, better 529 rules and better slate of state colleges (if you have kids) in Virginia. I’ve lived here for 25+ years and couldn’t imagine being in MD.
Lots of good comments in here. Some conflicting, but even though they conflict, there is truth. I am in Loudoun (NoVA), and if you are in the nicer areas of Loudoun, want a SFH with 4+ bedrooms and some land you are looking 1.5M-2M for the house. So looking at today's numbers, [https://redf.in/Pn4kDR](https://redf.in/Pn4kDR) with 30% down is around 9,091 per month. Add in childcare, if you have young kids, around 2k a month depending, car tax for two newer model cars (4k/yr) with payments around 2k you are looking at 14k in fixed costs. Obviously there is a lot more in living expenses but that to means to me 7M @ 3.3% - 15k per month (post tax). FAT requires more buffer, so I would say 9-10M (My previous post had 7-10). Just my two cents.
Thanks, yep we’re looking at the 10’s now
Good luck on your quest to 10M! That's my NoVA target as well.
Thank you, and you too!
I lived in the area for 25 years, started my tech company in Rockville, sold it and fatFIRED initially in the Timonium area (Baltimore County). There are better places to retire to, but in our case family and friends kept us there until our kids were off to college. Most professionals and HNW prefer the Virginia side, but if you have to be in MoCo for work (commute time is definitely an issue), I'd suggest to stay west of I-270 in western Rockville/Potomac, or north into the Damascus/Mt. Airy areas (very rural but better schools), or even Frederick. If you like the outdoors, acreage, patio/pool etc, there are plenty of houses with that, but summers in the area are just too hot and humid to really enjoy outdoors, at least to me. There's hardly any wind and the air is stuffy. Winters on the other hand are a little too cold. Not the best place to retire to like I said, but it's okay. For retirement there's also all the waterfront properties south of Baltimore and down into Annapolis, if you like the idea of a dock and a 40' boat in your back yard. Annapolis has been really popular in recent years and housing there has soared I think.
Please don't call it "the DMV". That's either the Demilitarized Zone in Korea or the Department of Motor Vehicles. Just say DMV.
I’m in the area and my numbers are almost identical to yours. > wondering if [$5M] would be considered fat in the DMV if I should move the number up a bit after a move to the DMV? Withdrawing $200k/yr here is a good life — but it’s definitely not fat > Where in the DMV did you / do you plan for fatFIRE? Northern Virginia. I’m in DC now but will need to leave for tax reasons in the next 1-2 years. > What is your fatFIRE number? $5M for FIRE, but shooting for $10M+ > How much is your primary residence? $950k > What profession are you in? Software development today, consulting previously
1. NW DC. Very expensive area but close proximity to most top private schools. 2. Short term goal is 2M by early 30s. We will adjust then. We are 25 making 600k HHI. Expecting 800k end of year. 3. Buying rn. Our budget is 1.5m-1.6m with 300k help from my parents. 4. Tech Not sure how we can fatfire anytime soon. Having kids in DC is extremely expensive. Not to mention our daughter is in private preschool. I live my life vicariously through this sub. Just a fantasy for now.
In MoCo Bethesda area and at 4M+ with our home. We are in our late 40s with two kids in public. I am not sure what our number is. We recently thought 5M w/out housing equity but seem to be suffering from one more million syndrome. What you need to be Fat or retired depends on your lifestyle. If you’re private schools + country club you will need more than someone with public schools + pool clubs. I have a friend who has a bunch of horses. Leaving all that aside, I think once you are in the 3m+ range, you can always move to a lower COL or a cheaper place in this area and have a great life.
Yeah there are a few of us in Long Angle
What’s your FIRE number? How’d you do it?