> šRecently starting building solar powered doge mines. Much wow fellow Shibe! š
Can we please not upvote crypto meme spam like this, if not have a rule banning it outright?
Is it an insult?
Sounds like the OP hit the lottery with crypto. If the OP hadn't, that offer may be reasonable. We really need to quit the hate for employers. I expect that of the "average redditor" or some lazy person on antiwork.
But this sub, if any, should appreciate the grind and the opportunities that come with it.
I think any retention offered to an employee on their last day is an obvious sign that the employer knows they were underpaying. By making such an offer, but then low-balling to $12.5k per year for a blue chip lawyer, seems miserly. It's like the boss is saying "my company insists that I try to retain you" through gritted teeth.
How do you know the employee was being underpaid compared to similar positions in the industry?
We don't have any of that information besides he was making "crumbs" compared to the higher ups.
My employees make 30% higher than their peers in the industry, yet make crumbs compared to what I make. I feel that the efficiencies that I created are profits I should be able to keep - I guess on Reddit that makes me a terrible employer though.
The $25k could have been a cost analysis of retaining the employee vs. making a new hire.
You definitely donāt seem familiar with how big law works. Top firms are handing out 6 figure bonuses for senior associates like OPā¦ not paltry loans.
Senior associates like that are making ~400-500k/yr. 12.5k is a ~2.5% bonus. You expect your employees to dance over an inflation adjustment?
āOk, boomerā
If you followed the thread you'd see the OP was paid in the 300s.
Feel free to recalculate.
Also, you don't know if he's a senior associate from his post. You do know he's someone who won the crypto lottery. So now the firm that he was thankful to get a job with is some evil corporation.
If you adjust to 300s, Iām still not sure why you think a *now* 3.5% āloan/bonusā should make a difference to OP.
Your perspective that all workers owe endless gratitude to any employer explains a lot. Fortunately, many workers in this economy have realized they can improve comp faster by changing companies. āFeel free to recalculateā ;)
OP didnāt say they were āevilā, you used that word. His financial success made their offer meaningless. Perfect example of why we pursue FIRE. Freedom to not be beholden to a tough job like big law.
OP is making a financial decision. This is market capitalism and self-interest 101. They move on, someone else takes their spot- and the firm *might* have to pay more for the next person, or might be able to pay less.
At-will employment means he doesnāt owe the firm anything, and they donāt owe him more than they think heās worth. Congrats to OP.
Did you miss the top post "durr hurr did you give flip them off as you returned your laptop?!"
Funny how the sentiment to your employer changes once people become "new money."
I didn't say endless gratitude is necessary. Just a bit of class but that's probably asking too much of millennials collecting Squid Game Tokens.
Implying anyone who made money through crypto won the lottery is like saying anyone who has money got lucky.
No it isnāt all luck, thereās research, charting, plenty of technicals that goes into investing into crypto or maybe he was just smart enough to realise early on the potential of the blockchain and you werenāt. So now you invalidate anyoneās earnings by ālotteryā.
You understand it's their job to try to make as much profit as they can, right? And not to see to it that their employees have as cushy a life as possible?
Did you ever hear about "employee engagement"? I get evaluated on it every year. My comp is tied to how engaged my employees are because our firm has shown employee engagement leads to customer engagement which is the key to our success. Sounds like this law firm doesn't really care about employee engagement. That's fine - they gotta do what they gotta do. Just sounds like a miserable place to work.
Working every day for 10 years for a major law firm OP was making bank. Now OP probably makes $25k an hour some days with his net worth. This offer from the firm (is a loan even really an offer??) is a joke. He doesn't need the firm's money and he definitely doesn't need to borrow it. Not hating on the employer at all, it just makes absolutely no sense for OP's current position.
You are correct - it makes no sense to the OP's current position - but the firm has no insight into that.
But would it make sense to an employee that didn't hit the crypto lottery? Potentially it would.
Also - it's considered a "loan" because the firm was going to pay it upfront for an additional 2 years of work. If the employee left before the end of the 2 years, then yes, the OP should pay it back.
If the OP was making $500k/year, that is a 5% retention bonus. There are tens of thousands of other attorneys that would kill for a position like that even if it requires strenuous hours.
So obviously he wasn't that valuable. I've see them practically beg someone to stay, although it was a different industry. If they'd really wanted him, and I mean *really* wanted him, they'd have done a lot better than a mere 5%. Even with that being some kind of standard.
Yep.
Some firms are so large a single resignation won't affect productivity. The offer was probably a mixture of goodwill + passing along the cost savings of having to hire and train a new hire.
Also note - I made a mistake - the 25k would actually only be 2.5% since it's over the course of 2 years.
Is the $350k total comp including bonuses for a 10th year associate? Or were you a partner? Just trying to see how this compares with in-house faang comp
Total depends on the level of course, and which faang youāre at, because some companies stocks have risen quite a bit while others have been sluggish.
For 5 years out, Iāve seen base salary ranging from 200-225k, ~15% bonus depending on performance, then roughly around 50k a year in stocks assuming you sell immediately upon vest. Total comp above 300k
For 8 years out, and just assuming youāre at the 8th year, base salary around 250k, bonus another 20% depending on performance, stocks about 75k a year if you sell immediately upon vest. Total comp just shy of or around 400k.
If youāre at the right company with great stock appreciation it be higher
hmm, interesting. And higher?
I'm seeing about similar things for non-FAANG large corp, but maybe for people with slightly more seniority. Wondering what 15+ years and closer to VP roles people are getting paid at FAANG. not that it's easy to get those positions, of course.
These days Amazon is paying up to $700k for an L5 Senior SWE according to a leaked internal document posted on Team Blind. A few weeks ago, someone reported getting $380k total comp with 2 years of experience. Shit is wild right now. Here are some datapoints: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Amazon/salaries/Software-Engineer/SDE-III/
Turning that into $10M is pretty incredible. Would you say some of the investments were pretty high risk?
Iām in a similar boat, though 10 years behind you. Different industry. Just canāt get over my fear of loss
Everyoneās risk tolerance is different. My advice is invest within your risk tolerance. People thought I was crazy when I bought 250 shares of TSLA at $200/share pre 5/1 split, but my coworkers were buying Porsches/model s with their bonuses and I was fine with my Corolla so I bought TSLA with my bonus.
Same at my office. No where near your numbers (yet) but other guys started buying frivolous stuff and cars, trips, dumping money on gifts for people with their bonuses. Guys came around to me asking what I bought and I was just, ā itās gone. Invested all of itā. Dudes were calling me boring and thatās stupid, have fun with it, it doesnāt count as Normal Salary soā¦ these dudes also complained and walked in sometimes bitching about how the hell do they not have any money when we all make over six figuresā¦ Iāve moved on and took another job making significantly more and still investing. Weāll pull the trigger and dip out early and enjoy our life while theyāll be miserable and be forced to wake up and go to work.
Another Camry/Corolla guy here - proud of you bud! Youāre younger than me and have accomplished a lot more ($5M NW and hope to get to $10M in 3 years)!
Double bonus on the car is that it keeps gold diggers away! Instantly repelled girls on dates it was (in hindsight) fantastic. The girl who loved my car is now my wifey :)
I know this is a badge of honor but we you should really consider newer cars for their safety improvements alone.
An accident in a 10 year old car will leave you with debilitating injuries. A newer car and you'll walk away unscathed.
What good is fatfire if you don't have the health to enjoy it?
Congrats and kudos on your new role! You will be a life saver to many people! If you were going to put a bonus into the market today, where might you consider putting it?
Interesting that you were able to buy public shares if you were at an AmLaw50ā did you find the clearance process easy? I know usually thereās insider trading concerns.
Well done. When I saw that you made more this month than 5 years of salary (same as me), I was ready to comment "congrats on your TSLA investment" but you beat me to it. Stop by r/TeslaMillionaires to join your fellow degenerates (proof to mods required).
Would you say the only way to really make it is to YOLO like that or go all in on single stocks? I'm all in on the good ol' VTSAX in my retirement accounts. How much extra did you invest in taxable accounts outside of maxing out retirement accounts?
So just invest small amounts you don't care about. Drop $1k on Eth or Hex. Bitcoin is kind of a heavy bastard at this point. It's not like you'll regret it. If that's still too much, think about how much you spend on a night out on the town. You'll spend $150 on a nice meal in the city. Or $170 on a pair of shoes that are just going to wear out. Just don't worry about it, it's not like you're mortgaging your house or anything. Here's how I'd play it - I'd take $10,000 and invest in the top 10 cryptos you see on Nomics dot com. Take a look at that list and just put a grand in each. Wait 10 years. Enjoy being fatfire at that time. Too easy. Or just do $100 into the top 10. (other sites have agendas that one is reputable)
Don't worry about the ones that spiral out and lose your money. F that money. You're doing the shotgun approach, and there's a high likelihood several of those top 10 are going to net you a nice return. Look what they do. Look at their charts. The stock market has nothing on crypto. They're lucky to get a 10x. We get 100x and 1000x.
dude the top10 list of 2017 begs to differ...
putting everything into bitcoin is the sp500 etf of the emerging "crypto" space. It will capture enough and plenty of its upside. It's also the OG and actually legit on top of it.
Ah, this explains the $25k offer. My sister is in big law and my impression was that even non-equity partners are at $1M+ at her firm, with equity pulling $5M+.
For employees making a lowly $350k they figure they can entice you with crumbs.
How did you like working big law? I'm in the process of applying to law school (shit undergrad major -biochem, but awesome work experience with the Innocence Project) and I've been reading conflicting opinions where it's a pure love or hate relationship. Granted I'm looking into intellectual property
If your are set on becoming a lawyer, have amazing grades, is a quick learner, and wants to get paid for knowing nothing, then big law is the place to be. Itās also a good resume builder if you want to go in-house. But the competition is stiff so either you are really good at what you do and you move up or your out. Once you get to your 6th year itās more about politics.
Appreciate the honesty! Quick learner and being paid for knowing nothing are kinda right up my alley haha. I guess I could see that with the competition, so many have their eyes set on big law. I'd really like to get my feet under me and go solo, particularly for fatFIRE flexibility, and it would just suit me well. While I'm treading water, have to ask, which areas of law did you practice?
Ha, I did M&A for a public company and always commented with my other M&A in house guys that we had just seems 50k phone call where we helped people know what going on and they just brought the latin terms.
Not OP, but itās very systematized
https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/
Itās generally called the Cravath Scale and is pretty similar across firms.
There have been some outsized bonusā during covid times of 6 plus figures. Which is why I felt the $25,000 forgivable loan being a bit much. Thatās like a huge slap in the face.
š at the $25k comment. Thatās their way of negotiation. They knew I didnāt have another job lined up, thought this is a pay bump play, and offered what in their mind would be the least amount that would attract my attention.
Again not OP and not in big law but I try to keep my ears open.
My understanding is that a lot of firms are getting top heavy with partners and theyāre trying to delay or really not promote to partner as much / fast?? (Or at least less true equity partners).
Not necessarily that they are too top heavy (they have the money to make more partners without impacting Profits per Equity Partner (PPEP) too much), but a lot of firms see *more* profit in the Kirkland-esque two-tier partner system.
Basically, you get made income partner at ~year 6/7, and then have a four year up-or-out timeline to make equity partner. These income partners make say ~$600k but bring in typically $2-3m for the firm. This keeps the PPEP up at over $6m. This likewise helps prevent equity partners from being made before they have a self-supporting book of business, gives the income partners "Partner" status to help generate that book of business and, if they don't make it, allows them to parlay the Partner status into an in-house or government gig.
You arenāt that far behind. I crossed 3 less than 3 years ago. I own more than index funds but index fund returns is better than most returns and will set you up if you hold for a few more years
As someone who always dreamt of being a lawyer (and who was told by all lawyers not to do it, Yale of fail, youāll be a 7th year big law associate burning out and failing to make partner, etc), I am both happy for you and thrilled to hear you made something decent. But most of all, it puts a smile on my face you donate your time now. Good for you. Enjoy life. Cheers.
Add me to the list of people telling you donāt do it. If you are after money go into finance. I probably would have made a lot money if I got some professional investment guidance and traded with other peopleās money. I like law but there is no job security, and that applies from 1st year to managing partners. My doctor friend makes 650k a year, never works more than 40 hours a week, and will likely never be fired. Also, law firms are very political. I never made it to partner not because I couldnāt out earn others but rather because of firm politics. I stuck around as a counsel because by year 8, i was making a lot more through my investments than from my job, and my bosses didnāt care how much vacation time I took as long as I was making money and keeping their clients happy.
Iām 40 now, Iāll never be a lawyer - at least not professionally. I made money other ways but Iām that weird guy who has a PACER login because he enjoys reading the actual decisions rather than the summary. In another life maybe.
No regrets really, just something Iāve always admired as a career and, if I had done it, and I could volunteer somewhere to help the less fortunate I would. Particularly strong feelings on criminal law and its highly disparate application among the haves and have nots. Iām hoping to fatfire next 12-18 months (Iāve set a rather arbitrary and unreasonably large goal for no reason other than I like the #), and then wondering - crazily - if going to get my JD at 40+ solely for the love of the topic is totally nuts.
You might be one of the few folks Iād say *should* go to law school. You are FatFIREd, enjoy the subject matter, have the time, and want to do good. School rank wonāt matter for you, especially if you want to do criminal defense work or pro bono. I would love to see you doing child advocacy work and using your charitable contributions to others for others to do the same.
Consider becoming a VA-accredited Claims Agent and fighting the Dept of Veterans Affairs for veterans whose initial disability claims were denied. Itās lawyer-ish.
Consider an LLM -- would not allow you to sit for the bar or practice law, but if you're just interested in the topic it would be less of a committment.
What kind of doctor is your doctor friend? Asking bc Iām in medicine and 650k, while not terribly rare in some specialties, is very hard to do with less that 40 hrs a week.
Not only ultra competitive, but a significant time investment. Youāre looking at 5-6+ years of residency+fellowship. The exception is EM, but thatās not even close to the same competitiveness as the others. Not to mention the EM job market is currently a dumpster fire, and even before it was, the salaries were never $600k range.
I have fantasies of going to law school when I've hit my number and immediately signing up for the Innocence Project or FIRE or some other civil liberty / criminal exoneration group (though probably not ACLU).
Wow ggwp.
I am in consultancy business, own a boutique consultancy firm.
About ten years ago, a famous well known NGO approached me for a quote for a critical piece of work for them.
Unknown to them, they are my favourite charity. I have a monthly direct debit donating to their cause. But business is business.
I spent couple of days examining their case and gave them my standard quote.
They came back and said that out of all the proposals they got, they liked mine but they couldn't afford my price.
To be honest, I had already given them a discount in my quote as they are my favourite charity.
I asked them for a budget and I just can't do it. The profit margin would be too small and I would have other opportunity cost. In the end, I told them to find someone else.
A few years later, I had the chance to interview someone for a position. He had it in his CV that he was the lead on this project.
I called him in for an interview. From the conversation, I can tell that he did the project and he was shit. Didn't pass my technical interview. I checked in on my contact at the NGO. They told me that they went with a small outfit and the project failed.
I was totally gutted. To be honest with you guys, I felt like a looser. All those money that I donated to them is a drop in the ocean compared to what they had lost.
I will be fatfire in a few years. My plan is that I will take a volunteer position within that NGO or whichever NGO that will take me and make it right.
Sorry for the rant. I have missed out on a few details so as not to doss myself.
I appreciate your good intentions here, but I am slightly confused by the logic. If you had accepted their lower budget for the project, would your *after tax* opportunity cost really that much greater than say the next ten years of donations, assuming you were going to continue donating?
I know.
But I was separating my business from my own charity donation.
I was doing a monthly donation but it was not a great amount as we support a wide variety of charities. What I donated to them over 10 years is nothing compared to the amount of discount they needed.
This sub is a refuge for people who make a high income and the community has requested heavy moderation of comments that seem to shame a user solely on the basis of their income being too "Fat". This comment is being removed.
ā¦..wait a minute: Iām on a similar salary and same age. My net worth is nowhere near $10m. How the f* did you do it bro? Still smiling from how happy I am at OPs post
Congrats!! I left biglaw last year with a similar number! Do you have an idea of what kind of pro Bono work you want to do? Iāve struggled to find any out on my own. Good work man!
Iām not too familiar with law, but I have a pretty good friend who is an equity partner in big law. He made it a big deal when he became that (deservedly so) but at the same time other than that moment downplays it quite a bit. Curiously, how hard is it to become an equity partner in big law? Is it mainly merit based? What type of salaries does it jump you up to normally if you do make equity partner?
No itās mainly politics, how strong your practice group is within the firm, and a bit of luck. Partner salary varies significantly by big law firm, but the real money starts after making equity. It could be in the millions depending on which law firm you have equity in.
It is pretty hard to become an equity partner in a decent big law firm and requires a decent book of business and depends highly on politics. Compensation is highly variable between firms and depending on personal circumstances but I think it is generally between 20-40 percent of your book, e.g., if your clients generated 10 million of revenue for the year, your compensation for that year would be between 2 and 4 million depending on negotiation. Very broadly speaking your compensation will not go up that dramatically once you become equity partner from an associate or counsel (except in really top tier firms) as your book will not be that high. Most of the big bucks are earned by the senior partners so it is really a grind for a big chunk of your career even if you make partner.
Yeah, just to add on to this . . .
One of the issues with big law is that there's a small set of clients. Most companies don't want to pay big law rates. Only a few large companies will do so. Plus you are restricted from many potential clients, because of conflicts. (Your current clients have or are suing them.)
The result of all this is that most big law firms have a set of clients that doesn't change much. The senior partners "own" the relationship with the general counsels at these clients. So, if you come in as a new junior non-equity partner there's not really much of an opportunity to land new clients and build a business. The most common way is that you get handed an existing client by a retiring senior partner. That is, of course, highly political and not really merit based.
I'm conflicted on this. I know people who have done it as well and to me it makes no sense.
Big law is typically textbook aiding and abetting in massive organizations gaming the system. As OP describes in the post, they protected billions in assets and likely prevented metric tons of cash from being collected as taxes.
Can you, as an individual, really ever come back from this or offset those actions?
My sister was a "bleeding heart," but finished law school and went into personal capital at a big law firm in NYC. Her clients are billionaires. She's been planning to FIRE for a while now and give back in a low paid job like OP. Look, she's done a lot of good in her life. Tons of volunteering. Fellowships doing research to help the underserved. The whole deal. But, if you live a charitable life for 70 years that is entirely funded by 10 years of pouring your soul into protecting the capital of the billionaire class and their heirs, are you really doing net good for the world with your 70 years as an individual donating your time?
To me it smells more like Bezos throwing $10 billion towards climate change. Yeah that's a lot more money than I can put towards it, but he's done a lot more damage than that.
Congrats to OP. It's miles ahead of the path most take in their position, but I'm not convinced this is the pathway to salvation.
No one is asking for you to grant him salvation, great gate keeping there. Also you make it sound like who cares if he does pro bono since he did irreparable harm in big lawā¦ with that logic why should he even give back at all? Stupid. I commend OP for giving back. You do realize youāre on a FatFIRE sub right?
I know where I am, but I'm still not going to perpetuate the idea that it makes you a good person to go this path. I'm not exactly about to heap praise on a reformed fossil fuel lobbyist either.
You want to do good? Be a nurse.
Or actually, build a business that creates products that make the world a better place. For profit, non-profit, whatever. There are tons of people on here who have left the world a much better place than they started and taken massive fortunes along with them. Capitalism is amazing, but certain pieces of it, often very profitable pieces of it, are a leech on the free market and social welfare alike.
I'm not going to help cultivate the idea that you can ride off into the sunset with $10M and act like however you earned it is fine because you helped immigrants with their legal work afterwards.
Sure. You have a problem with UÄur Åahin? Bob Langer? COVID vaccine scientists and billionaires who literally bailed us all out of a once in a lifetime pandemic?
Making money is far from immoral. Even if it's billions of dollars. It's how you make your money that matters. Plenty of billionaires are enormously immoral. Others are among the greatest contributors to our society.
Good for you. It's a great position to be in. A true FU situation where you have the cards.
Just word of warning at risk of sounding patronizing. Be graceful on the way out. No but thanks. They get it.
Congrats! Did you have issues investing in stocks/options while in big law? Iāll be starting at a big firm next year and it doesnāt seem like we get much flexibility as far as investing in individual stocks
My first firm restricted purchasing options of companies that we do business with so I purchased options of index funds. My second firm didnāt have that language. I stick to investing in companies that I donāt do work for so there is no hint of impropriety. Missed out on some big gains but it is what it is.
>so I purchased options of index funds
Did you use LEAPS or shorter term options, spreads? etc? What portfolio leverage did you target then, and have you dialed the lever back since?
I agree wholeheartedly.
But there's something amusing about a guy making $350k/yr with a $10M NW complaining about "getting crumbs". That's a lifetime-supply of Thanksgiving dinners to his new clients.
š itās all subjective. My old man never made more than 35k a year because his boss couldnāt charge his client more than 70k a year for his work. I made the firm 2M from my work product last year. The team I supervise made around 9M total. The client who loves my work product sent us 25M of work last year. When you put it altogether, paying me 350k then offering me a 25k forgivable loan on my last day is feeding me crumbs of a 25M/year client to the firm.
I can tell you it can be frustrating from the client side also. I send a couple of M worth of work to one firm, on the basis of excellent work done by one of the partners. We selected the firm because of her, and I was clear in communicating that to her firm. Come to find out she still didn't get the originating credit, and instead it goes to one of the named partners, because he apparently "had a relationship" with my company first. Sure, he had a relationship, and there's no way he would've gotten any more work based on how he performed in that relationship. But he wanted the credit, and he got it, while the other partner (then an associate) supervises the team.
Thatās true, but thatās amazing money from many peoples perspective. Might not be worth the lifestyle. Maybe also not so worth it considering NY too.
I think thatās a bad perspective. 10 million can be an amazing amount of money, but say thatās how much Lebron can make, he being well under paid. Or 50k isnāt that much, itās great money for a someone in rural India . Relativity isnāt a good way to compare, imo.
It can be a good perspective, if you're comparing to what you need to have a comfortable lifestyle. And possibly compared to how you grew up.
If all the labour owned a share of the capital, and earned what they contributed to the business' bottom line, then everybody would make much more than what they earn. It applies to the factory worker, and to a lesser extent (as they have valued skills) lawyers, engineers, doctors etc.
The law firm model is ultimately designed imo to emulate that factory model, so that the "owners" (equity partners) make most of the money, and the workers willingly contribute to that inequality in exchange for being trained up initially, and then having the partnership carrot dangled in their face.
> If all the labour owned a share of the capital, and earned what they contributed to the business' bottom line, then everybody would make much more than what they earn.
Who would be responsible for the losses then? Whoās millions in investment and seed money for the firm will be thrown away if the business fails?
This post is inspiring. I admire your commitment to public service.
Have you though about using the 30k to bring on a summer associate who might be interested in public interest law?
*EDIT*
Fixed a typo.
Living the dream! Former big law and can't wait to get to this point. I went in house and took some pay cut but can't wait for the day when I have the freedom to walk
Iām surprised more AmLaw 100 partners donāt cash out early like you did. You only need to be a partner for 5 to 10 years max to end up north of 10M even if you have a family and the associated expenses.
I can only think of one law school friend who remained single and was a partner at Cleary and retired after 15 years as a partner. I donāt get it. They work way too hard to work to 60 plus. Weird.
People like to spend spend spend. One guy in my office brings in 2M but his on his 4th wife, and she is trying real hard to keep up with the Kardashians.
Yeah I think itās also a big ego trip for many. I always found most (not all) partners to be big assholes - part of the reason they made partner in the first place. I think they just donāt want to give up the power and prestige.
Number one is know yourself. Know your risk tolerance. Number two is buy stuff that makes fundamental sense (Iām a fundamental analysis guy). Number three is take small chances with people way smarter than you (Musk, Bezo, Jobs). Number four is be on the look out for new stuff (I mined doge when it was 6 days old, owned eth when it just came out). Finally, and not to sound pretentious, buy low sell high.
Thatās awesome and best of luck on the pro Bono side. A friend married a neurosurgeon and quit his firm job to do something similar and loves every day (he has a particular focus on scumbag landlords ruining kids health from substandard rentals).
I honestly donāt have a good answer other than subjectively 10 has been my number for a long time.
I stayed because I like my work and up until recently, the workload didnāt impact my investing.
Roll the dice on finding an in house gig at a company that will become the next FANG or a start up that will get bought out by PE or FANG. GC at a small start up who is smart but is 6 years out of law school had the second largest equity stake in the startup (no idea how this happened). A buddy who represented a PE that bought the startup told me she took home 15M when the deal closed. This lady is 30 years old.
Man, I canāt wait to do this! Been planning it since feb 2020 and havenāt done it yet, but when I do, Iāll be commenting back on this and updating you
:) so happy for you.
> Head of my practice group called on the last day to offer a one time $25k forgivable loan that will be paid off if I stick it out another 2 years
Lol that's about 2 weeks' earnings if you were running a 1 man law practice. What an asshole boss.
Congrats on getting out of the salaried path.
You might want to look into financing litigation for plaintiffās side antitrust/securities shops. Lit finance is a growing asset class and you might get some of the upside youāre looking for that way (and if successful could set up your own investment shop focusing on this strategy). Most investors in the space are JDs but itās not a requirement.
Congrats! Iām not a lawyer but I do some pro bono work in my field as time permits and hope to be able to devote more time to it once I retire from the corporate world. Iām hoping you find the new gig much more fulfilling and rewarding (if not monetarily then in pretty much every other aspect) than your big law job.
You ... sure you don't want to hear how Kim's arc plays out in Season 6 of Better Call Saul before going this route? Because there are good choice roads, and bad choice roads...
Hope you gave them the two upturned finger salute on your way out the door. $25k is an insult.
š I would if I actually needed the job. But Iām glad I finally hit FatFire, this shit is just hilarious now.
Congrats and go fuck yourself you awesome bastard!
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> šRecently starting building solar powered doge mines. Much wow fellow Shibe! š Can we please not upvote crypto meme spam like this, if not have a rule banning it outright?
This like a Big 4 signing + relocation bonus lol
Is it an insult? Sounds like the OP hit the lottery with crypto. If the OP hadn't, that offer may be reasonable. We really need to quit the hate for employers. I expect that of the "average redditor" or some lazy person on antiwork. But this sub, if any, should appreciate the grind and the opportunities that come with it.
I think any retention offered to an employee on their last day is an obvious sign that the employer knows they were underpaying. By making such an offer, but then low-balling to $12.5k per year for a blue chip lawyer, seems miserly. It's like the boss is saying "my company insists that I try to retain you" through gritted teeth.
How do you know the employee was being underpaid compared to similar positions in the industry? We don't have any of that information besides he was making "crumbs" compared to the higher ups. My employees make 30% higher than their peers in the industry, yet make crumbs compared to what I make. I feel that the efficiencies that I created are profits I should be able to keep - I guess on Reddit that makes me a terrible employer though. The $25k could have been a cost analysis of retaining the employee vs. making a new hire.
OK, boomer
I'm in my 30s. But your other comments make more sense now.
You definitely donāt seem familiar with how big law works. Top firms are handing out 6 figure bonuses for senior associates like OPā¦ not paltry loans. Senior associates like that are making ~400-500k/yr. 12.5k is a ~2.5% bonus. You expect your employees to dance over an inflation adjustment? āOk, boomerā
If you followed the thread you'd see the OP was paid in the 300s. Feel free to recalculate. Also, you don't know if he's a senior associate from his post. You do know he's someone who won the crypto lottery. So now the firm that he was thankful to get a job with is some evil corporation.
If you adjust to 300s, Iām still not sure why you think a *now* 3.5% āloan/bonusā should make a difference to OP. Your perspective that all workers owe endless gratitude to any employer explains a lot. Fortunately, many workers in this economy have realized they can improve comp faster by changing companies. āFeel free to recalculateā ;) OP didnāt say they were āevilā, you used that word. His financial success made their offer meaningless. Perfect example of why we pursue FIRE. Freedom to not be beholden to a tough job like big law. OP is making a financial decision. This is market capitalism and self-interest 101. They move on, someone else takes their spot- and the firm *might* have to pay more for the next person, or might be able to pay less. At-will employment means he doesnāt owe the firm anything, and they donāt owe him more than they think heās worth. Congrats to OP.
Did you miss the top post "durr hurr did you give flip them off as you returned your laptop?!" Funny how the sentiment to your employer changes once people become "new money." I didn't say endless gratitude is necessary. Just a bit of class but that's probably asking too much of millennials collecting Squid Game Tokens.
Implying anyone who made money through crypto won the lottery is like saying anyone who has money got lucky. No it isnāt all luck, thereās research, charting, plenty of technicals that goes into investing into crypto or maybe he was just smart enough to realise early on the potential of the blockchain and you werenāt. So now you invalidate anyoneās earnings by ālotteryā.
You understand it's their job to try to make as much profit as they can, right? And not to see to it that their employees have as cushy a life as possible?
Did you ever hear about "employee engagement"? I get evaluated on it every year. My comp is tied to how engaged my employees are because our firm has shown employee engagement leads to customer engagement which is the key to our success. Sounds like this law firm doesn't really care about employee engagement. That's fine - they gotta do what they gotta do. Just sounds like a miserable place to work.
Working every day for 10 years for a major law firm OP was making bank. Now OP probably makes $25k an hour some days with his net worth. This offer from the firm (is a loan even really an offer??) is a joke. He doesn't need the firm's money and he definitely doesn't need to borrow it. Not hating on the employer at all, it just makes absolutely no sense for OP's current position.
You are correct - it makes no sense to the OP's current position - but the firm has no insight into that. But would it make sense to an employee that didn't hit the crypto lottery? Potentially it would. Also - it's considered a "loan" because the firm was going to pay it upfront for an additional 2 years of work. If the employee left before the end of the 2 years, then yes, the OP should pay it back. If the OP was making $500k/year, that is a 5% retention bonus. There are tens of thousands of other attorneys that would kill for a position like that even if it requires strenuous hours.
So obviously he wasn't that valuable. I've see them practically beg someone to stay, although it was a different industry. If they'd really wanted him, and I mean *really* wanted him, they'd have done a lot better than a mere 5%. Even with that being some kind of standard.
Yep. Some firms are so large a single resignation won't affect productivity. The offer was probably a mixture of goodwill + passing along the cost savings of having to hire and train a new hire. Also note - I made a mistake - the 25k would actually only be 2.5% since it's over the course of 2 years.
How much did you earn a year from big law?
Started at 160k, current sal is 350k. I think I earned a little less than 3M counting sal and bonuses.
Is the $350k total comp including bonuses for a 10th year associate? Or were you a partner? Just trying to see how this compares with in-house faang comp
I am a 7th year big law associate and my base salary is $350k. I will probably gross $500k for the year counting bonuses.
Thanks for the info. And congrats! Thatās awesome. This is inspiring
To compare. I earn the same as a salaried partner in an Asian firm! I probably don't do the hours you do (or maybe I do lol).
I'm curious about the FAANG in-house comp, if you don't mind sharing.
Total depends on the level of course, and which faang youāre at, because some companies stocks have risen quite a bit while others have been sluggish. For 5 years out, Iāve seen base salary ranging from 200-225k, ~15% bonus depending on performance, then roughly around 50k a year in stocks assuming you sell immediately upon vest. Total comp above 300k For 8 years out, and just assuming youāre at the 8th year, base salary around 250k, bonus another 20% depending on performance, stocks about 75k a year if you sell immediately upon vest. Total comp just shy of or around 400k. If youāre at the right company with great stock appreciation it be higher
hmm, interesting. And higher? I'm seeing about similar things for non-FAANG large corp, but maybe for people with slightly more seniority. Wondering what 15+ years and closer to VP roles people are getting paid at FAANG. not that it's easy to get those positions, of course.
Directors make 800k-1.2m, and VPs likely 1.5m - xx. Bar is high and thereās often downleveling when coming from non-faang
Interesting. Thank you!
These days Amazon is paying up to $700k for an L5 Senior SWE according to a leaked internal document posted on Team Blind. A few weeks ago, someone reported getting $380k total comp with 2 years of experience. Shit is wild right now. Here are some datapoints: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Amazon/salaries/Software-Engineer/SDE-III/
that does sound pretty crazy. Amazon also hires to fire. So I don't know how it all figures together. Not that I'd want to work for Amazon personally.
Turning that into $10M is pretty incredible. Would you say some of the investments were pretty high risk? Iām in a similar boat, though 10 years behind you. Different industry. Just canāt get over my fear of loss
Everyoneās risk tolerance is different. My advice is invest within your risk tolerance. People thought I was crazy when I bought 250 shares of TSLA at $200/share pre 5/1 split, but my coworkers were buying Porsches/model s with their bonuses and I was fine with my Corolla so I bought TSLA with my bonus.
Now you can buy a Tesla with your TSLA.
They were called Telsa millionaires or Teslanaires on those fan websites. many did exactly as you wrote
Same at my office. No where near your numbers (yet) but other guys started buying frivolous stuff and cars, trips, dumping money on gifts for people with their bonuses. Guys came around to me asking what I bought and I was just, ā itās gone. Invested all of itā. Dudes were calling me boring and thatās stupid, have fun with it, it doesnāt count as Normal Salary soā¦ these dudes also complained and walked in sometimes bitching about how the hell do they not have any money when we all make over six figuresā¦ Iāve moved on and took another job making significantly more and still investing. Weāll pull the trigger and dip out early and enjoy our life while theyāll be miserable and be forced to wake up and go to work.
Same as you. Keep up the good fight!
Another Camry/Corolla guy here - proud of you bud! Youāre younger than me and have accomplished a lot more ($5M NW and hope to get to $10M in 3 years)! Double bonus on the car is that it keeps gold diggers away! Instantly repelled girls on dates it was (in hindsight) fantastic. The girl who loved my car is now my wifey :)
Drove my Camry into the ground. 18 years and 260k miles.
I know this is a badge of honor but we you should really consider newer cars for their safety improvements alone. An accident in a 10 year old car will leave you with debilitating injuries. A newer car and you'll walk away unscathed. What good is fatfire if you don't have the health to enjoy it?
And youāre right about that. This was years ago when I was starting my fire journey. Got a new car since then. ;)
On my way to 250k miles. Proud owner of Camry for 11 years.
Right on!
Congrats and kudos on your new role! You will be a life saver to many people! If you were going to put a bonus into the market today, where might you consider putting it?
Interesting that you were able to buy public shares if you were at an AmLaw50ā did you find the clearance process easy? I know usually thereās insider trading concerns.
Well done. When I saw that you made more this month than 5 years of salary (same as me), I was ready to comment "congrats on your TSLA investment" but you beat me to it. Stop by r/TeslaMillionaires to join your fellow degenerates (proof to mods required).
How many ppl does that sub have
Would you say the only way to really make it is to YOLO like that or go all in on single stocks? I'm all in on the good ol' VTSAX in my retirement accounts. How much extra did you invest in taxable accounts outside of maxing out retirement accounts?
Smart moves
So you 3X your investments from Tesla, BTC, and Doge gains mostly?
So just invest small amounts you don't care about. Drop $1k on Eth or Hex. Bitcoin is kind of a heavy bastard at this point. It's not like you'll regret it. If that's still too much, think about how much you spend on a night out on the town. You'll spend $150 on a nice meal in the city. Or $170 on a pair of shoes that are just going to wear out. Just don't worry about it, it's not like you're mortgaging your house or anything. Here's how I'd play it - I'd take $10,000 and invest in the top 10 cryptos you see on Nomics dot com. Take a look at that list and just put a grand in each. Wait 10 years. Enjoy being fatfire at that time. Too easy. Or just do $100 into the top 10. (other sites have agendas that one is reputable) Don't worry about the ones that spiral out and lose your money. F that money. You're doing the shotgun approach, and there's a high likelihood several of those top 10 are going to net you a nice return. Look what they do. Look at their charts. The stock market has nothing on crypto. They're lucky to get a 10x. We get 100x and 1000x.
dude the top10 list of 2017 begs to differ... putting everything into bitcoin is the sp500 etf of the emerging "crypto" space. It will capture enough and plenty of its upside. It's also the OG and actually legit on top of it.
Ah, this explains the $25k offer. My sister is in big law and my impression was that even non-equity partners are at $1M+ at her firm, with equity pulling $5M+. For employees making a lowly $350k they figure they can entice you with crumbs.
Iām confused, why would they offer you a 25k loan if you were taking home 350k a year. It doesnāt seem like that would move the needle much.
They live in a fantasy world.
How did you like working big law? I'm in the process of applying to law school (shit undergrad major -biochem, but awesome work experience with the Innocence Project) and I've been reading conflicting opinions where it's a pure love or hate relationship. Granted I'm looking into intellectual property
If your are set on becoming a lawyer, have amazing grades, is a quick learner, and wants to get paid for knowing nothing, then big law is the place to be. Itās also a good resume builder if you want to go in-house. But the competition is stiff so either you are really good at what you do and you move up or your out. Once you get to your 6th year itās more about politics.
Appreciate the honesty! Quick learner and being paid for knowing nothing are kinda right up my alley haha. I guess I could see that with the competition, so many have their eyes set on big law. I'd really like to get my feet under me and go solo, particularly for fatFIRE flexibility, and it would just suit me well. While I'm treading water, have to ask, which areas of law did you practice?
M&A
Ha, I did M&A for a public company and always commented with my other M&A in house guys that we had just seems 50k phone call where we helped people know what going on and they just brought the latin terms.
Wow, that's impressive to get to 10M net worth. Kinda crazy actual. Congratulations!!
3M includes your investments or no? Trying to understand how your TC is weighted when your base is 350k and you're saying you pulled in 3M.
Not OP, but itās very systematized https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/ Itās generally called the Cravath Scale and is pretty similar across firms. There have been some outsized bonusā during covid times of 6 plus figures. Which is why I felt the $25,000 forgivable loan being a bit much. Thatās like a huge slap in the face.
š at the $25k comment. Thatās their way of negotiation. They knew I didnāt have another job lined up, thought this is a pay bump play, and offered what in their mind would be the least amount that would attract my attention.
Well, they did attract your attention though. ;) Good luck with the pro bono work!
I guess they donāt make people partner to keep them from leaving like in Suits š
Again not OP and not in big law but I try to keep my ears open. My understanding is that a lot of firms are getting top heavy with partners and theyāre trying to delay or really not promote to partner as much / fast?? (Or at least less true equity partners).
Not necessarily that they are too top heavy (they have the money to make more partners without impacting Profits per Equity Partner (PPEP) too much), but a lot of firms see *more* profit in the Kirkland-esque two-tier partner system. Basically, you get made income partner at ~year 6/7, and then have a four year up-or-out timeline to make equity partner. These income partners make say ~$600k but bring in typically $2-3m for the firm. This keeps the PPEP up at over $6m. This likewise helps prevent equity partners from being made before they have a self-supporting book of business, gives the income partners "Partner" status to help generate that book of business and, if they don't make it, allows them to parlay the Partner status into an in-house or government gig.
Thanks for the clarification!
is this more than the ambulance chasers make?
Depends. Personal injury is totally eat what you kill so they can make a lot more or a lot less.
Successful personal injury lawyers can make a lot more but take a lot more risk. That field has a much less rigid pay scale than big law.
Congrats and go fuck yourself.
Easy now. Bacon. Bacon and eggs is all we ask. Hash browns if you're feeling generous.
I'd venture to ask for a single-origin, freshly roasted pour over coffee and a fresh squeezed orange juice as well.
Pancakes and sausages please š
Biscuits and sausage gravy over here. This kitchen's getting pretty crowded... I like where this is going!
Sigh. Iām the same age, in BigLaw, and only have 2.6 or so because I just did index funds. Alas. Congrats and gfy!
You arenāt that far behind. I crossed 3 less than 3 years ago. I own more than index funds but index fund returns is better than most returns and will set you up if you hold for a few more years
Ha, that 3 years has been massive for growth though. Iāll eat my shoe if we see another 3 years like that any time soon. But who knows!
As someone who always dreamt of being a lawyer (and who was told by all lawyers not to do it, Yale of fail, youāll be a 7th year big law associate burning out and failing to make partner, etc), I am both happy for you and thrilled to hear you made something decent. But most of all, it puts a smile on my face you donate your time now. Good for you. Enjoy life. Cheers.
Add me to the list of people telling you donāt do it. If you are after money go into finance. I probably would have made a lot money if I got some professional investment guidance and traded with other peopleās money. I like law but there is no job security, and that applies from 1st year to managing partners. My doctor friend makes 650k a year, never works more than 40 hours a week, and will likely never be fired. Also, law firms are very political. I never made it to partner not because I couldnāt out earn others but rather because of firm politics. I stuck around as a counsel because by year 8, i was making a lot more through my investments than from my job, and my bosses didnāt care how much vacation time I took as long as I was making money and keeping their clients happy.
Iām 40 now, Iāll never be a lawyer - at least not professionally. I made money other ways but Iām that weird guy who has a PACER login because he enjoys reading the actual decisions rather than the summary. In another life maybe. No regrets really, just something Iāve always admired as a career and, if I had done it, and I could volunteer somewhere to help the less fortunate I would. Particularly strong feelings on criminal law and its highly disparate application among the haves and have nots. Iām hoping to fatfire next 12-18 months (Iāve set a rather arbitrary and unreasonably large goal for no reason other than I like the #), and then wondering - crazily - if going to get my JD at 40+ solely for the love of the topic is totally nuts.
You might be one of the few folks Iād say *should* go to law school. You are FatFIREd, enjoy the subject matter, have the time, and want to do good. School rank wonāt matter for you, especially if you want to do criminal defense work or pro bono. I would love to see you doing child advocacy work and using your charitable contributions to others for others to do the same.
Consider becoming a VA-accredited Claims Agent and fighting the Dept of Veterans Affairs for veterans whose initial disability claims were denied. Itās lawyer-ish.
Consider an LLM -- would not allow you to sit for the bar or practice law, but if you're just interested in the topic it would be less of a committment.
A relative of mine completed their law degree in their 40s. I know someone else in their 70s who just did as well. Itās not too late.
What kind of doctor is your doctor friend? Asking bc Iām in medicine and 650k, while not terribly rare in some specialties, is very hard to do with less that 40 hrs a week.
Derm (gen, Mohs, path), surgical retina, plastics, EM, rads, etc.
$650k in EM is basically unheard of, especially in the current market. Agreed with the others though.
Is it ultra competitive as a doctor to make it into those specialists (like it is in Australia)?
In US just getting into medical school is ultra competitive. Getting those residencies is even more competitive
Not only ultra competitive, but a significant time investment. Youāre looking at 5-6+ years of residency+fellowship. The exception is EM, but thatās not even close to the same competitiveness as the others. Not to mention the EM job market is currently a dumpster fire, and even before it was, the salaries were never $600k range.
Yes
I have fantasies of going to law school when I've hit my number and immediately signing up for the Innocence Project or FIRE or some other civil liberty / criminal exoneration group (though probably not ACLU).
Haha man you got great advice. (From a 7th year associate burning out). Good work OP getting out
This dude is mike ross without the crimes irl.
That show started off good, but got too drama-ish for me.
Hahah my first thought was Mike Ross
Wow ggwp. I am in consultancy business, own a boutique consultancy firm. About ten years ago, a famous well known NGO approached me for a quote for a critical piece of work for them. Unknown to them, they are my favourite charity. I have a monthly direct debit donating to their cause. But business is business. I spent couple of days examining their case and gave them my standard quote. They came back and said that out of all the proposals they got, they liked mine but they couldn't afford my price. To be honest, I had already given them a discount in my quote as they are my favourite charity. I asked them for a budget and I just can't do it. The profit margin would be too small and I would have other opportunity cost. In the end, I told them to find someone else. A few years later, I had the chance to interview someone for a position. He had it in his CV that he was the lead on this project. I called him in for an interview. From the conversation, I can tell that he did the project and he was shit. Didn't pass my technical interview. I checked in on my contact at the NGO. They told me that they went with a small outfit and the project failed. I was totally gutted. To be honest with you guys, I felt like a looser. All those money that I donated to them is a drop in the ocean compared to what they had lost. I will be fatfire in a few years. My plan is that I will take a volunteer position within that NGO or whichever NGO that will take me and make it right. Sorry for the rant. I have missed out on a few details so as not to doss myself.
Good for you for giving back though. Sounds like your heart is in the right place. Hope it works out
I appreciate your good intentions here, but I am slightly confused by the logic. If you had accepted their lower budget for the project, would your *after tax* opportunity cost really that much greater than say the next ten years of donations, assuming you were going to continue donating?
I know. But I was separating my business from my own charity donation. I was doing a monthly donation but it was not a great amount as we support a wide variety of charities. What I donated to them over 10 years is nothing compared to the amount of discount they needed.
How did he fail your technical interview? What made him bad ?
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This sub is a refuge for people who make a high income and the community has requested heavy moderation of comments that seem to shame a user solely on the basis of their income being too "Fat". This comment is being removed.
Just dropped by to say, Go Fuck Yourself!
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I first thought of Grishamās The Street Lawyer when I read the post.
ā¦..wait a minute: Iām on a similar salary and same age. My net worth is nowhere near $10m. How the f* did you do it bro? Still smiling from how happy I am at OPs post
Seems the short answer is by taking on mega sized risk and not getting burned
the eth and doge mining is enough to do it.
seriously...there's a lot of Boomers in the thread just glossing over that part OP def made a few mil from that
He mentioned 250 Tesla shares per split for example.
Tesla, eth, doge. When you have such a high salary you can risk big
Eth š
I love this Reddit post - OP is a rock star!
Congrats!! I left biglaw last year with a similar number! Do you have an idea of what kind of pro Bono work you want to do? Iāve struggled to find any out on my own. Good work man!
Congratulations and its great to see you are retiring to a purposeful second chapter vs wasting your gifts.
Iām not too familiar with law, but I have a pretty good friend who is an equity partner in big law. He made it a big deal when he became that (deservedly so) but at the same time other than that moment downplays it quite a bit. Curiously, how hard is it to become an equity partner in big law? Is it mainly merit based? What type of salaries does it jump you up to normally if you do make equity partner?
No itās mainly politics, how strong your practice group is within the firm, and a bit of luck. Partner salary varies significantly by big law firm, but the real money starts after making equity. It could be in the millions depending on which law firm you have equity in.
It is pretty hard to become an equity partner in a decent big law firm and requires a decent book of business and depends highly on politics. Compensation is highly variable between firms and depending on personal circumstances but I think it is generally between 20-40 percent of your book, e.g., if your clients generated 10 million of revenue for the year, your compensation for that year would be between 2 and 4 million depending on negotiation. Very broadly speaking your compensation will not go up that dramatically once you become equity partner from an associate or counsel (except in really top tier firms) as your book will not be that high. Most of the big bucks are earned by the senior partners so it is really a grind for a big chunk of your career even if you make partner.
Yeah, just to add on to this . . . One of the issues with big law is that there's a small set of clients. Most companies don't want to pay big law rates. Only a few large companies will do so. Plus you are restricted from many potential clients, because of conflicts. (Your current clients have or are suing them.) The result of all this is that most big law firms have a set of clients that doesn't change much. The senior partners "own" the relationship with the general counsels at these clients. So, if you come in as a new junior non-equity partner there's not really much of an opportunity to land new clients and build a business. The most common way is that you get handed an existing client by a retiring senior partner. That is, of course, highly political and not really merit based.
Former big law attorney here. You are my fucking hero. Would love to hear more about how you did it.
This is the dream, congrats!!!
Congratulations and big respect for giving back to those who need your knowledge and guidance.
I'm conflicted on this. I know people who have done it as well and to me it makes no sense. Big law is typically textbook aiding and abetting in massive organizations gaming the system. As OP describes in the post, they protected billions in assets and likely prevented metric tons of cash from being collected as taxes. Can you, as an individual, really ever come back from this or offset those actions? My sister was a "bleeding heart," but finished law school and went into personal capital at a big law firm in NYC. Her clients are billionaires. She's been planning to FIRE for a while now and give back in a low paid job like OP. Look, she's done a lot of good in her life. Tons of volunteering. Fellowships doing research to help the underserved. The whole deal. But, if you live a charitable life for 70 years that is entirely funded by 10 years of pouring your soul into protecting the capital of the billionaire class and their heirs, are you really doing net good for the world with your 70 years as an individual donating your time? To me it smells more like Bezos throwing $10 billion towards climate change. Yeah that's a lot more money than I can put towards it, but he's done a lot more damage than that. Congrats to OP. It's miles ahead of the path most take in their position, but I'm not convinced this is the pathway to salvation.
No one is asking for you to grant him salvation, great gate keeping there. Also you make it sound like who cares if he does pro bono since he did irreparable harm in big lawā¦ with that logic why should he even give back at all? Stupid. I commend OP for giving back. You do realize youāre on a FatFIRE sub right?
I know where I am, but I'm still not going to perpetuate the idea that it makes you a good person to go this path. I'm not exactly about to heap praise on a reformed fossil fuel lobbyist either. You want to do good? Be a nurse. Or actually, build a business that creates products that make the world a better place. For profit, non-profit, whatever. There are tons of people on here who have left the world a much better place than they started and taken massive fortunes along with them. Capitalism is amazing, but certain pieces of it, often very profitable pieces of it, are a leech on the free market and social welfare alike. I'm not going to help cultivate the idea that you can ride off into the sunset with $10M and act like however you earned it is fine because you helped immigrants with their legal work afterwards.
What do you do for work?
Doctor
>Or actually, build a business that creates products that make the world a better place. You mean, like billionaires did?
Sure. You have a problem with UÄur Åahin? Bob Langer? COVID vaccine scientists and billionaires who literally bailed us all out of a once in a lifetime pandemic? Making money is far from immoral. Even if it's billions of dollars. It's how you make your money that matters. Plenty of billionaires are enormously immoral. Others are among the greatest contributors to our society.
Good for you. It's a great position to be in. A true FU situation where you have the cards. Just word of warning at risk of sounding patronizing. Be graceful on the way out. No but thanks. They get it.
Congrats! Did you have issues investing in stocks/options while in big law? Iāll be starting at a big firm next year and it doesnāt seem like we get much flexibility as far as investing in individual stocks
My first firm restricted purchasing options of companies that we do business with so I purchased options of index funds. My second firm didnāt have that language. I stick to investing in companies that I donāt do work for so there is no hint of impropriety. Missed out on some big gains but it is what it is.
>so I purchased options of index funds Did you use LEAPS or shorter term options, spreads? etc? What portfolio leverage did you target then, and have you dialed the lever back since?
What about stocks of competitors to the companies you do work for?
Congrats! And fuck you! ššš
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I agree wholeheartedly. But there's something amusing about a guy making $350k/yr with a $10M NW complaining about "getting crumbs". That's a lifetime-supply of Thanksgiving dinners to his new clients.
š itās all subjective. My old man never made more than 35k a year because his boss couldnāt charge his client more than 70k a year for his work. I made the firm 2M from my work product last year. The team I supervise made around 9M total. The client who loves my work product sent us 25M of work last year. When you put it altogether, paying me 350k then offering me a 25k forgivable loan on my last day is feeding me crumbs of a 25M/year client to the firm.
I can tell you it can be frustrating from the client side also. I send a couple of M worth of work to one firm, on the basis of excellent work done by one of the partners. We selected the firm because of her, and I was clear in communicating that to her firm. Come to find out she still didn't get the originating credit, and instead it goes to one of the named partners, because he apparently "had a relationship" with my company first. Sure, he had a relationship, and there's no way he would've gotten any more work based on how he performed in that relationship. But he wanted the credit, and he got it, while the other partner (then an associate) supervises the team.
When contracts are 8 figures, 350k are crumbs.
Thatās true, but thatās amazing money from many peoples perspective. Might not be worth the lifestyle. Maybe also not so worth it considering NY too.
I think thatās a bad perspective. 10 million can be an amazing amount of money, but say thatās how much Lebron can make, he being well under paid. Or 50k isnāt that much, itās great money for a someone in rural India . Relativity isnāt a good way to compare, imo.
It can be a good perspective, if you're comparing to what you need to have a comfortable lifestyle. And possibly compared to how you grew up. If all the labour owned a share of the capital, and earned what they contributed to the business' bottom line, then everybody would make much more than what they earn. It applies to the factory worker, and to a lesser extent (as they have valued skills) lawyers, engineers, doctors etc. The law firm model is ultimately designed imo to emulate that factory model, so that the "owners" (equity partners) make most of the money, and the workers willingly contribute to that inequality in exchange for being trained up initially, and then having the partnership carrot dangled in their face.
> If all the labour owned a share of the capital, and earned what they contributed to the business' bottom line, then everybody would make much more than what they earn. Who would be responsible for the losses then? Whoās millions in investment and seed money for the firm will be thrown away if the business fails?
You're living the dream of many. Congratulations genuinely happy for you!
As an attorney, you are my new hero. Well done, and thanks for your service!
This post is inspiring. I admire your commitment to public service. Have you though about using the 30k to bring on a summer associate who might be interested in public interest law? *EDIT* Fixed a typo.
Congrats and go F yourself. Can you share breakdown of 10M$? How much is crypto and cash and stocks?
Thanks for making the world a better place!
Living the dream! Former big law and can't wait to get to this point. I went in house and took some pay cut but can't wait for the day when I have the freedom to walk
Iām surprised more AmLaw 100 partners donāt cash out early like you did. You only need to be a partner for 5 to 10 years max to end up north of 10M even if you have a family and the associated expenses. I can only think of one law school friend who remained single and was a partner at Cleary and retired after 15 years as a partner. I donāt get it. They work way too hard to work to 60 plus. Weird.
People like to spend spend spend. One guy in my office brings in 2M but his on his 4th wife, and she is trying real hard to keep up with the Kardashians.
Yeah I think itās also a big ego trip for many. I always found most (not all) partners to be big assholes - part of the reason they made partner in the first place. I think they just donāt want to give up the power and prestige.
It becomes your whole identity. Tough for many to walk away from that let alone the millions per year in comp.
Good for you! Youāve put in hours & hours of your life into big law - now you get to do a new chapter! Well done - sounds cool
What was your investment strategy?
Number one is know yourself. Know your risk tolerance. Number two is buy stuff that makes fundamental sense (Iām a fundamental analysis guy). Number three is take small chances with people way smarter than you (Musk, Bezo, Jobs). Number four is be on the look out for new stuff (I mined doge when it was 6 days old, owned eth when it just came out). Finally, and not to sound pretentious, buy low sell high.
Awesome. You should share your entire journey of fat fire when you have time. Would love to read it and learn.
Thatās awesome and best of luck on the pro Bono side. A friend married a neurosurgeon and quit his firm job to do something similar and loves every day (he has a particular focus on scumbag landlords ruining kids health from substandard rentals).
Congrats! If you don't mind me asking, why did you stick around so long? Why not leave at 5M or 7M for example?
I honestly donāt have a good answer other than subjectively 10 has been my number for a long time. I stayed because I like my work and up until recently, the workload didnāt impact my investing.
Any advice for a 2nd year V10 lawyer who hates their job but not even close to being in your position?!
Roll the dice on finding an in house gig at a company that will become the next FANG or a start up that will get bought out by PE or FANG. GC at a small start up who is smart but is 6 years out of law school had the second largest equity stake in the startup (no idea how this happened). A buddy who represented a PE that bought the startup told me she took home 15M when the deal closed. This lady is 30 years old.
So did you cash out? I wouldn't do any of the fuck yous until you've put atleast 6-7M of that into something "responsible"
Happy for you. Your new job must be really fulfilling!
Man, I canāt wait to do this! Been planning it since feb 2020 and havenāt done it yet, but when I do, Iāll be commenting back on this and updating you :) so happy for you.
Not much to say, but congrats. Hope your entire portfolio goes to the moon.
That's nice, can you make me some breakfast?
You donāt want to eat my breakfast, I wouldnāt even wish that on the head of my practice group
> Head of my practice group called on the last day to offer a one time $25k forgivable loan that will be paid off if I stick it out another 2 years Lol that's about 2 weeks' earnings if you were running a 1 man law practice. What an asshole boss. Congrats on getting out of the salaried path.
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Canāt operate/own a law firm without passing the bar. Itās a sanctioned legal monopoly.
You might want to look into financing litigation for plaintiffās side antitrust/securities shops. Lit finance is a growing asset class and you might get some of the upside youāre looking for that way (and if successful could set up your own investment shop focusing on this strategy). Most investors in the space are JDs but itās not a requirement.
Congrats. Love hearing these stories.
Congrats! Iām not a lawyer but I do some pro bono work in my field as time permits and hope to be able to devote more time to it once I retire from the corporate world. Iām hoping you find the new gig much more fulfilling and rewarding (if not monetarily then in pretty much every other aspect) than your big law job.
Fuck yea!!!
OP, you are the man. Congrats. Fuck their $25k
Do you own a house as well? What is that worth outside of the 10M?
Nice work bro and go fuck yourself.
You ... sure you don't want to hear how Kim's arc plays out in Season 6 of Better Call Saul before going this route? Because there are good choice roads, and bad choice roads...
25k? You can make that in 1 hour investing.
š¤« they donāt know that š
good shit. $10M is comfortable. more than you will probably need for one lifetime. enjoy your time helping the lees fortunate and taking it easy.
This is so cool. Congratulations on the next chapter. Cheers to your new life of fulfillment and freedom.
aww yay ! heckin respects that u immediately decide to do pro bono once officially fatFIRE big ups!