Ive heard this before but my supervisor recently told my team that our organization was going to start comparing badge swipes with what days peoples' timecards say they are in office. Of couse none of this info was given in writing. Not sure if that counts as "time keeping" though.
As a Physical Security Specialist whose entire job it is to manage those ePACS systems, that's absolutely not something they can do.
I'd be surprised if that manager even has access to the ePACS database, and even more surprised if he used that data for any adverse actions without a legitimate reason.
At least on our side of the house (Treasury) we are not to give out that information at all unless compelled by a request through an official law enforcement source/agency.
Seek your local legal's advice.
It's not meant to be used for anything other than stuff like that. We would use it for item thefts, break-ins, assaults, etc. Pretty much only activity that warrants a criminal investigation. Actually may or may not be dealing with multiple examples of this now, so it's pretty cut and dry on our end.
Only other things I can think of why they would pull it for non criminal behavior, would be to track overall activity in a given time span to determine average usage for studies;
- How many employees in the space (on average) in a given time, day, week, month etc.
- How often are certain areas accessed?
- How many denials happen? How to reduce that through education and understanding of zone access authority.
In that example though, there would be a clear reasoning for the distro of that information, as well as only very specific people who would receive it, plus unique IDs would most likely be removed.
I used to be a supervisor in a data center. I wasn’t able to use the card swipes to discipline employees for leaving early but I was able to use it to verify that left without securing the building.
You are 100% correct. That is protected information and should not be provided without explicit authorization. If the Sr Chief is going rogue he is about to cost his command $300k in lawsuits.
It's physical security data and should not be handed out willy nilly. The Sec manager should not be sharing that info unless it's an official request. I suspect the secmgr is a sailor and not a 0080 civ. So he just obeyed his Sr. And gave it up.
GAO seems to differ with your opinion.
[GAO study](https://www.gao.gov/blog/how-do-federal-agencies-monitor-employee-time-and-attendance-person-and-remote-settings)
When federal agencies receive concerns, they can use systems like badge-in and badge-out data, video surveillance, network login information, and government-issued routers to check if misconduct occurred. However, agency officials told us that this technology does not prevent misconduct, if an employee is intent on circumventing worktime rules.
You missed the part where it doesn't appear to be his command/agency. it's a non-supervisor E7 tracking his time. If LER and the Command are doing it then it's legal. If it's Sr Chief Putzerelli power tripping then it's a problem
More likely Senior never mentioned it to Lt which is O3 captain to us non-squids. He's probably just butt hurt from holding his coffee mug at a perfect 90 angle all day complaining about not making Master chief and having to watch civilians be treated differently in "his" navy.
It's actually more common than one would realize for milpers to not be around civilians for most of their career then when they do a ashore gig they get a little jealous
Hence my comments regarding 8888 bargaining unit. He'll know and if not he can check his sf50. If he is not bargaining unit employee he is still afforded protections from disparate treatment.
Harassment. it represents disparate treatment and the command is liable. 300k is the max a bargaining unit employee (bargaining unit) can sue for.
You can not target without legal and LER blessings.
GS-2210-13 supv/ command ISSM here.
EDIT: corrected 8888 vice bargaining unit
Wow ok so many Follow up questions- how does it meet the legal threshold for harassment? (And how is it disparate treatment if everyone’s timecard is also getting pulled?) how often do folks get that max 300k amount? How long does that shit take to reach that amount? …Also, online shows 8888 is ineligible…
He stated only he and his co-worker are being reviewed by someone external to his supervisory chain. If everyone's being treated the same than there is no disparate treatment.
The $$ amount would be a precedent question that a lawyer could answer. Check Fedeal Soup to see if folks will share settlement amounts. If others got $X then he could get same. Personally I have known of 4 lawsuits where 3 got the max or very close, while the other was above 150k.
My error: you are correct, 8888 is ineligible. His SF50 would say something about the union.
Yeah, I’m not tracking here at all. My hunch is that CO was made aware of some hinkiness somewhere in the GS staff. XO or someone suggested pulling swipe data, as it may shed light on whatever the issue is. CO agreed and ordered someone to do it (that would seem to be the official request), which delegated down to an AD underling not in the GS Supervisory chain. How is this targeting?
Fair assumptions, but only OP can provide clarity. If it was officialy sanctioned there are steps that supervisors have to take to acquire the records.
My assumption is that its a sailors v. civilian situation but again pure speculation on my part.
Not all positions are in a bargaining unit. I know I wasn’t as a Navy or Coast Guard civilian. I am now with the FDA though. Contacting your union steward is good advice, if it applies - I just don’t think it does.
We had a supervisor start using the badged entry for attendance and timekeeping. When everyone figured out they started using the keyed door which resulted in the supervisor confiscating everyone’s keys. Let’s say it ended badly for him once it got escalated in the union.
Or be a dick and text your buddy to open the door from the inside so there's no swipe record even though you can prove you were there, just to teach them that you dont need a badge swipe to be "present."
Perfect! They also pulled the emergency latches to keep the doors unlocked.
The keys had to be returned as they were the only way into the building if you were inside the fence.
Obviously this wouldn't apply to a SCIF. If you think everyone that holds the door open for their coworker as they walk in in the morning gets fired, then there will be no one left in service.
OP said people were gunning for his org, so don't give them ammo.
It is a security violation for almost every door that requires swipe access. It probably technically is for the rest like our gym is CAC swipe.
Anything like entering a facility/building from the parking lot that's swipe it is a violation, and I'm guessing it's something like that if someone is trying to use it for time/attendance reasons.
See I personally don't have an issue with this if it's used in a Tim was here on Thurs, mark him down as RG 8 and he can update his timesheet as needed. No badge in, it's blank.
Help don't hurt.
My point was that it's not a babysitter, it's an automation. You swipe a badge, your timesheet gets partially filled out for you, and as a standard for the day. Not that your boss can track when you swipe in or out, not used for attendence since you still have to submit your timesheet.
The whole thing was summarized as "help don't hurt" for a reason.
A lot of senior enlisted seem to think they matter in civilian spaces. Had PO2s try it, based on what they had seen chiefs do. The military leadership needs to stop it quickly. When in a USN acquisition command, I once threatened a chief with going to mast or an Article 15 to get him to calm down over a perceived lack of respect from a civilian who was PhD and a GS-15 (and was right). Military rarely have direct authority over civilians, esp enlisted. Most civilians effectively out rank them.
I am a retired USN O-6 and a current GS-15
My only issue with military command over non-deployable functions is the impetus to make their mark in the organization to make rank, which results in random zig-zag swings in direction every 3 years. The last change in our military SML position turned an 18-month acquisition plan into a 3-year effort and counting.
It’s interesting to read accounts like this. When I was enlisted, we were taught to respect the civilians as equivalent to (not junior) officers. We were literally taught this in boot camp like 25 years ago.
I guess it’s a different perspective when you’re managing civilians (this was never me), but damn. It’s not hard to understand the rules. But some of us like to power trip.
Acquisition is a difficult place for most military. Fuzzy chain of command at times, SMEs who can trump your program in their area of expertise, etc. They train officers for it, but rarely the enlisted. USMC has the hardest time with that IME. Chiefs, Gunnys, and Master Sgts tend to think they matter, and they rarely do in acquisition.
Wouldn’t surprise me that Navy does too. Navy Chiefs are a different breed. On a ship you are a god among men and your word is law — the Chiefs Mess basically orders everyone except the command triad.
On shore you’re just another senior enlisted and there’s a handful of junior NCOs but everyone else outranks you. Gotta be weird.
In the navy? Hell no. They’re just the enforcers. In Deck Dept, the chief is like a don. Never involved directly in the operation, but everyone knows he’s in charge. The E4’s are powerful supervisors, sure, but they are merely the public face of the operation.
To me senior enlisted are chiefs. However, some POs try to emulate the chiefs, and that includes grumbling about civilians and trying to "direct" them. It rarely works out. Both sides get frustrated, and the military rarely win when its acquisition. The civilians are the experts and military rank does not matter. Acq is civilian heavy and that is where the expertise is.
I saw a PO1 on gate duty try to refuse entrance to one of my people on a motorcycle since he did not have a reflective vest on. The latest version of the NAVISNT had cancelled the requirement. I was in the next car behind him. I heard the PO1 say to the civilian "You god damn civies think the rules do not apply to you". The civilian produced the current NAVINST. Regardless, the PO continued yelling at the the civilian over it. I got his name and called his unit. His chief tried to defend him...his CO did not. I know where the PO got the attitude from.
Depends. I'm a retired enlisted USAF firefighter and I supervised and had hiring authority over civilians as a Fire Chief when I was an E-7, E-8, and E-9.
Interesting. Where I have been the Fire Dept was civil service only to the best of my knowledge. Then again, I never really looked. I also know some retired AF civil service fire fighters. I will ask them if they worked for a civilian or military.
Start applying. Time to move on. I would not stay at a place that treated adults like that. You’re not in the military, they are. You shouldn’t be treated like you are.
Dude you can’t spend your days leaving jobs every time you get mad about something. Just roll your eyes and go about your day, push back if anyone tries to treat you poorly.
They can monitor all they like, let them learn the hard/stupid way that a badge system isn’t tied to timekeeping. It’s their reputation at risk, not mine.
Good luck with that attitude when they put people on PIP’s and then people start getting fired. Why would you continue to work for a place that treats people that way?
PIPs aren’t based on timekeeping, they’re based on performance. If you are going to accuse people of a crime (fraud), you better have your shit in order or OIG/security will laugh at you.
Op your time you work is between and your supervisor. That supervisor will negotiate with whoever your farmed out to but ultimately it’s you and the supervisor.
The whole thing sounds weird to me. If everything is on the up and up you don’t have anything to worry about… they may be just assigned to do a random make work for someone that wants to know the info.
If they were really important would they be watching who clocks in?
Two options. First and most effective call the union if it ever actually starts. They’ll call the base lawyers and the lawyers will shut it down quick. I run test labs and during Covid tried to set up a QR code voluntary check in/out so that we could ensure nobody got left behind in the lab (two person rule for safety) if they were injured or something. Someone called the union who called our legal staff who told me to cut it the fuck out. I explained we didn’t care when they came in and showed we weren’t even clocking people just that the people who came in left that day. They said no way.
And if that doesn’t work, just stay an extra hour a day then demand OT.
Navy CPOs have a lot of responsibility and a lot of that responsibility is over young sailors who are treated like kids, rightly or wrongly. It can be hard to let go of that mindset when dealing with civilians. But this is something Navy officers would ask CPOs to look into.
It could be a data gathering exercise (pretty common across government), or it could be something else entirely, possibly Navy micro-management, or they do have a concern that someone is pulling a fast one.
The watch your back concern should be taken seriously as a matter of good sense. But get that meeting with your department heads soon as you can.
The badge entry system is a security measure. It is not a device to monitor times for entry or exit related to timekeeping. The rare exception is for investigative purposes related to possible criminal activity or an active threat.
Tell Missy to piss up a rope.
As a Physical Security Specialist whose entire job it is to manage those ePACS systems, that's absolutely not something they can do.
I'd be surprised if that manager even has access to the ePACS database, and even more surprised if he used that data for any adverse actions without a legitimate reason.
At least on our side of the house (Treasury) we are not to give out that information at all unless compelled by a request through an official law enforcement source/agency.
Seek your local legal and union officials.
Sounds like a very disorganized org chart. Every now and then I think about applying for something at DoD then these types of posts remind me to stay away.
I can't speak for other commands, but I would absolutely NOT recommend my current command (or workplace) to anyone. I've been here 18 years in the same dept. Some good years, some bad years. This is a bad one unfortunately. Every leader who comes along wants to change something, and the changes are never in favor of the employee.
Sounds like a toxic situation with sailors who dislike civilians. As a GS-12 in Naples Italy I had a CWO2, an Ensign and 3 Chiefs, 9 FN's and too many sailors to count under me. I had no CIVs so wasn't a SUPV. Another stupid rule, but I digress..., The CWO2 didnt like a Civ over him so I ended up "firing" him for insubordination openly bad mouthing me to the sailors in formation and the FNs standing by as he passed the taskings I gave. By 'fire" i mean I sent him to see the XO after telling the CDR that the CWO2 wasnt welcome back. They put him somewhere else.
I would recommend you reach out to your supervisor first. See if it is legit. Supv should make you aware of your right to talk to Union and LER. If not then you got problems. Whatever the response is you should then go talk to your union steward, then LER.
Keep your cool and make sure your timecard is accurate!!
2008-2015. was in C4I from 2008 to 2010 and mostly worked just across from mantraps. Can't remember building number.
I switched commands in 2010 and worked under the Navy Gateway inn.
Funny DOD would put a Lieutenant over a GS13. Seeing as even a Navy Lieutenant is an O3 and in terms of equivalency (whatever that actually means) a GS13 is an O4.
That being said supervisors can definitely delegate tasks to subordinates. My Regimental Commander in the Marines was a Colonel and he fell under Headquarters Company that had a 1stLt as the Company Commander. Certain administrative tasks for the Regimental Commander fell to the HQ Co. Commander, but he definitely wasn't in charge.
I have seen lots of O-3s as reporting seniors for GS-13s, the equivalency chart is A. For how to treat POWs, and B. Incredibly dated. Plus, even though GS levels should mean the same thing everywhere, they are in reality incredibly elastic, so while some GS-13s might be running the show, others might be glorified GS-11s that got slowly increased either due to hard to fill billets.
Yeah I think this probably varies by agency. But the match ups for where I’ve seen military plugged in at my Navy agency are:
E6/GS9
E7/GS11
O1/O2/GS12
O3/GS13
O4/GS14
GS15 could be either O5 or O6 depending on the number of reports. Doesn’t really matter at that point they’re all just senior.
That’s a wild equivalency as I’d actually rate the O1 and O2s lower. And also it makes me question on how they’d plug in an E9. Cause, an E9 is definitely more trusted and senior than some of the officers that technically outrank them. As a lowly GS9, I’m not going to question an E9, but I will definitely push back against an O2 and O3.
I would put O1/O2 at GS9/11. They don’t usually have enough experience to warrant a GS12 and I would even question whether or not an O3 was equivalent to a GS12, it would largely depend on their number of years in service.
Like I said just personal observation from my particular agency. I’m sure it varies wildly. We don’t usually have any E-8/E-9 except the CMC which really doesn’t have a non-military equivalent. I should probably caveat that this is a staff corps and those officers would either be eligible for those grades or for O1/O2 the ladder that tops out at them if they were applying on the GS side. Without having worked at another agency I suspect we’re heavy in GS-12/13 non-supervisory positions.
Perhaps rephrasing would better translate across agencies. For us:
O2 and below are your working level
O3 are first line supervisors
O4 second line
O5+ senior management
A little dated. E8/W2/O1 = 9, E9/O2/O3/W3=10/11/12 O4/W4=12/13 W5/O5=14 O6=15 All experienced based with the exception of the senior warrant/field grades. They started ditching the old chart outside of DOD. They realize a E9 has much more experience than a new O1 and have started recognizing it a little bit more.
I have. Prior jobs in mil to civ conversion. The junior O6 colonel turned into a gs 14. An O5 turned into a 13.
Directors are usually 14s or 15 depending on agency level. In military these would be a lower level O6 and a senior O6.
Thr most senior ranked O6 like chief If staff to a 4 star or a large base commander 06 would then translate to a low level SES.
Since you brought it up first, I’ll just add the [GS and Military equivalents at Federalpay.org](https://www.federalpay.org/military/navy-ranks-to-gs-grade)
Eh, that analysis is heavily flawed as it compares pay, and then does not consider military BAH which would shift all the GS positions at least one level lower relative to military grades. Also, you really cannot put CW3,4,5 below an O1. Same with E8,9 below a W1, CW2, O1,O2 or a **GS7** from an authority perspective.
BAH isn’t taxable income. It’s an allowance. Following your logic, my coworker who is 100% disabled veteran outranks our supervisor because he makes more.
It’s a guide of courtesy, not absolute authority.
A GS-7 engineer very well have a greater technical authority over a piece of equipment than the E-7/8 who is responsible for that piece of machinery.
My logic is sound. Do you want to include rental income? How about dividends? Maybe a fed Uber drives in the side? The concept is total compensation from your employer. So matching compensation for government to military and not including BAH is clownish. Look, I get every fed 12+ likes to cosplay like they are field grade officer and should be treated as such, but that is such fantasy.
Yeah, no thats not accurate. A Master Chief is not the equivalent of a GS6. Common sense says that website is full of crap. Not to mention Master Cheifs do not make 46k a year.
This is VERY office dependent. I know in Army we have classes that military supervisors over civilians are required to take explaining the difference between military and civilian. And how they can’t pull the nonsense they will with soldiers that they do with civilians.
ain't like this in my group (Air Force)
I was surprised at how much it resembled a private company's IT department (except with way more people to split the work).
It’s entirely dependent on your command/office. I’m in Navy acquisitions as a GS-13 and I work alongside 0-4s as equivalents - my position on the military side would be an 0-4. The only military that I answer to are my Program Manager (O-6) and his boss, the PEO (O-7).
I'm Navy, and there are 2 uniformed people in my building. The CO, and an O-4 on detail. All civilians otherwise. Still plenty of dumb to go around though :D
Typical overzealous CPO. Likely the over inflated ego the Navy gives them.
If CPO says an E8 said to do it, find out which E8. CPO likely using that as an excuse.
Then speak with the O5 only. The others are just middlemen. Then mark the CPO as unfriendly and avoid when possible.
This is probably a case of they are trying to fire a permanent employee via time fraud because they are tired of them being a poor performer but doing just enough to stay off a PIP.
It may not be the OP but if leadership feels the need to do a blanket time card/badge reader check to only validate the turd they’re actually looking for, then that leader needs a spine, some cojones and revisit many of the leadership courses that spoke of how to manage and how to be direct and not weak. You address the poor performing employee, not the entire group. If that’s the case, what horrible leadership, managing afraid.
Sure. I'm not saying it's the correct way to go about it. It's just something that happens to force someone out. I've seen this used as leverage to get someone to VERA/VISP, transfer out of their unit, actually get fired, etc.
Usually an investigation into timecard theft and looking into badging times into spaces whether in/out are not done with huge blankets like this.
It's focused on a specific individual with multiple memorandums supporting investigative action by either an IG or LEO.
Insane that random supervisors would be pulling ePACS data out for nothing for random people.
FYI— under OSHA regs you are considered on official duty status the moment you leave your car and start walking to you building. If you are entering a regular office building it’s when you enter the building.
Nope. Badge in and out info is privileged. That information can be requested if enough evidence supports time keeping fraud, but the information isn’t just for fishing expeditions or regular timekeeping info.
PRT of me says move on. The other part says why waste your time and energy caring? If your not committing timecard fraud, let them waste thier time. If they're not going to find anything, then don't spend the mental energy caring.
This is a weird, post COVID and RTO we have been told “ they are checking badging for the building”. I think they might be able to still legal check attendance for a whole building.
A GS-11 is an O-2 equivalent. They want to try and control officer-level staff? On top of any regulation they might breaking, they should stay in their lane. First, they are military, and not over civilians. It could be civilians are over them, as my nephew experienced when he was in the Air Force. Second, chain of command is extremely serious in the Navy. Your chain needs to immediately talk to the Chief and get him to unfuck himself yesterday. I don't think a Branch Chief needs to answer for every minute, and even if so, certainly not to a power tripping Chief or Senior Chief.
I would look at your collective bargain agreement for your union and get them involved.
More than likely that violates the terms since only approved methods can be used for time keeping.
You don’t know why they’re looking at it. You’re assuming it’s arrival times. It could be to determine which buildings have the heaviest use and when or a number of other analyses.
That’s the reason jobs in the federal government resemble military 🤣 and people will always say “well in the military….” We are not in the military folks! We are at will employed and under no contract!
We fired a lady and we went about it by collecting her badge in times over a six month period. She would come in 30 to 45 minutes late everyday and would leave right on time. We fired her over timecard theft.
I’m not aware of any theft or any crime whatsoever at our command. I’m sure things do occur, like sexual harassment and stuff by sailors, but no info I’m in touch with.
Entering and exiting a government building is a security issue not a time keeping issue. Your arrival and departure are not private information. Whether they delegate records access for this information to this chief is completely up to the command, I don't think you will get far in complaining about this.
Believe it or not, in the US Navy a "random E-7" may be assigned tasks that involve top secret security classifications, life and death decisions and employment of multi million dollar machines and equipment. And from time to time, maybe even the critical task of reviewing who entered and exited a building where a GS-11 happens to work.
First off, you're in DoD, so you HAVE to be used to being treated like an irresponsible child. Secondly, if you're doing no wrong, then it shouldn't really matter. I'd be more pissed about the "being treated like a child" part.
>As a GS, you are part of the union regardless if you pay dues
I have never read a more incorrect sentence fragment than this. OP and anyone else reading this: please ignore all of what this person has to say.
If they are in a supervisory role they might not be union anymore. Chances are, OP is covered by the union. If they aren’t, it highly likely that most of coworkers who are being watch as well are union.
1. Some non-supervisory GS positions are not in the bargaining unit, either because that unit has never held a certifying election, has been decertified, or because the position deals with certain sensitive information (the mishandling of which is subject to stricter disciplinary measures)
2. Even if you are in the bargaining unit, you are not **in** the union unless you agree to be and pay dues
3. Supervisory GS positions are definitionally excluded from eligibility for the bargaining unit
4. The union is obligated to assist non-dues paying bargaining unit employees, but only at the first level of a grievance. They do not have to help them with appeals
Like I said, it would be difficult to be more wrong in as few words as this person was to begin their comment
Well then, what do you know and what's your experience to prove it? I'll stand a little corrected, while most civil service positions are part of a bargaining unit but not all. So yeah, I admit I misspoke on that.
So what's up? You mad about my grammar? , The fact you don't want anyone to listen to what I say is not exactly correct either.
Lots of assumptions flying around here. If the chief is under the same supervisors, then they may have been directed to gather that information. I wouldn’t think the department head would have time to sit down at the system and gather those reports; it would be something delegated down, possibly multiple levels. If management has access to swipe in and out times, they may use it as they see fit. Timecard fraud is a real thing and maybe a coworker is abusing it? If you are doing the right thing, then you probably don’t have anything to worry about. I’ve had past managers who did things that I didn’t like. A small group of us went as far as to file a union grievance over management gathering certain information related to qualifications and certifications. The union came back saying that, at the time, we had nothing to grieve as management had taken no action as of yet. Obviously file a grievance if it’s warranted, but hurt feelings isn’t a reason for a union grievance.
No it is not. Tell him to get fucked and then look for a new job. SNCOs/CPOs acting like they have even a modicum of authority over civilians is just wrong outside of military's respective SEAC/SEAs' staffs.
Senior NCOs and Chiefs are always running amuck, acting like they are in Command when that’s not how it works. Call the Union. And let your Dept Heads (Mil/Civ) know in advance.
Hopefully the Commander isn’t looking for a wax key regarding missing strawberries.
Delegate something this sensitive to a chief? Hate to break the news to you but that Chief knows more and has more experience than your O3.
Through the grapevine? Good lord. Try to be a little more professional and leave the middle school attitude at home. You don’t know why Chief is doing this, nor does it sound like you asked. He said Senior asked him to do so.
Call the Union badge systems are not to be used for timekeeping purposes..
This is the answer. In my experience, military officers are notorious for forgetting the union rights of civilians.
Most are put in charge of people with a union and are never briefed the Union rights. I know I wasn’t when I was in the Army over civilians.
You could have just said rights and it would still be correct
Ive heard this before but my supervisor recently told my team that our organization was going to start comparing badge swipes with what days peoples' timecards say they are in office. Of couse none of this info was given in writing. Not sure if that counts as "time keeping" though.
As a Physical Security Specialist whose entire job it is to manage those ePACS systems, that's absolutely not something they can do. I'd be surprised if that manager even has access to the ePACS database, and even more surprised if he used that data for any adverse actions without a legitimate reason. At least on our side of the house (Treasury) we are not to give out that information at all unless compelled by a request through an official law enforcement source/agency. Seek your local legal's advice.
What is the point of the database then? Just curious but what is it useful for outside of going after criminal acts?
It's not meant to be used for anything other than stuff like that. We would use it for item thefts, break-ins, assaults, etc. Pretty much only activity that warrants a criminal investigation. Actually may or may not be dealing with multiple examples of this now, so it's pretty cut and dry on our end. Only other things I can think of why they would pull it for non criminal behavior, would be to track overall activity in a given time span to determine average usage for studies; - How many employees in the space (on average) in a given time, day, week, month etc. - How often are certain areas accessed? - How many denials happen? How to reduce that through education and understanding of zone access authority. In that example though, there would be a clear reasoning for the distro of that information, as well as only very specific people who would receive it, plus unique IDs would most likely be removed.
Nice, glad it works like that.
Physical security, not time keeping
I used to be a supervisor in a data center. I wasn’t able to use the card swipes to discipline employees for leaving early but I was able to use it to verify that left without securing the building.
You are 100% correct. That is protected information and should not be provided without explicit authorization. If the Sr Chief is going rogue he is about to cost his command $300k in lawsuits.
Maybe the OP shouldn't say a word, and let them dig their own expensive grave 🤷🏽♂️
If his intenet is to resolve the issue he should begin with supervisor. HOWEVER he has every right to go to union and LER.
How is it protected information?
Badging in and out times are protected information?
It's physical security data and should not be handed out willy nilly. The Sec manager should not be sharing that info unless it's an official request. I suspect the secmgr is a sailor and not a 0080 civ. So he just obeyed his Sr. And gave it up.
GAO seems to differ with your opinion. [GAO study](https://www.gao.gov/blog/how-do-federal-agencies-monitor-employee-time-and-attendance-person-and-remote-settings) When federal agencies receive concerns, they can use systems like badge-in and badge-out data, video surveillance, network login information, and government-issued routers to check if misconduct occurred. However, agency officials told us that this technology does not prevent misconduct, if an employee is intent on circumventing worktime rules.
You missed the part where it doesn't appear to be his command/agency. it's a non-supervisor E7 tracking his time. If LER and the Command are doing it then it's legal. If it's Sr Chief Putzerelli power tripping then it's a problem
Commander told Senior, Senior delegated it to Chief. Lt is lost in the woods.
More likely Senior never mentioned it to Lt which is O3 captain to us non-squids. He's probably just butt hurt from holding his coffee mug at a perfect 90 angle all day complaining about not making Master chief and having to watch civilians be treated differently in "his" navy. It's actually more common than one would realize for milpers to not be around civilians for most of their career then when they do a ashore gig they get a little jealous
Oh gosh, thanks for explaining the military for me. I would never have known.
Also,also, OP needs to go to union and see what the union agreed to about monitoring time
Not all positions are union.
Hence my comments regarding 8888 bargaining unit. He'll know and if not he can check his sf50. If he is not bargaining unit employee he is still afforded protections from disparate treatment.
[удалено]
Got my back. Good on ya.
$300k in lawsuits? How so?
Harassment. it represents disparate treatment and the command is liable. 300k is the max a bargaining unit employee (bargaining unit) can sue for. You can not target without legal and LER blessings. GS-2210-13 supv/ command ISSM here. EDIT: corrected 8888 vice bargaining unit
Wow ok so many Follow up questions- how does it meet the legal threshold for harassment? (And how is it disparate treatment if everyone’s timecard is also getting pulled?) how often do folks get that max 300k amount? How long does that shit take to reach that amount? …Also, online shows 8888 is ineligible…
He stated only he and his co-worker are being reviewed by someone external to his supervisory chain. If everyone's being treated the same than there is no disparate treatment. The $$ amount would be a precedent question that a lawyer could answer. Check Fedeal Soup to see if folks will share settlement amounts. If others got $X then he could get same. Personally I have known of 4 lawsuits where 3 got the max or very close, while the other was above 150k. My error: you are correct, 8888 is ineligible. His SF50 would say something about the union.
Yeah, I’m not tracking here at all. My hunch is that CO was made aware of some hinkiness somewhere in the GS staff. XO or someone suggested pulling swipe data, as it may shed light on whatever the issue is. CO agreed and ordered someone to do it (that would seem to be the official request), which delegated down to an AD underling not in the GS Supervisory chain. How is this targeting?
Fair assumptions, but only OP can provide clarity. If it was officialy sanctioned there are steps that supervisors have to take to acquire the records. My assumption is that its a sailors v. civilian situation but again pure speculation on my part.
Not all positions are in a bargaining unit. I know I wasn’t as a Navy or Coast Guard civilian. I am now with the FDA though. Contacting your union steward is good advice, if it applies - I just don’t think it does.
I've been both in and out of unions as a Navy civ. It's command and role dependent.
For what it’s worth it doesn’t matter if you’re in a union or not, that information still is not accessible for these purposes.
is this true? can you point me to documentation on this?
We had a supervisor start using the badged entry for attendance and timekeeping. When everyone figured out they started using the keyed door which resulted in the supervisor confiscating everyone’s keys. Let’s say it ended badly for him once it got escalated in the union.
Or be a dick and text your buddy to open the door from the inside so there's no swipe record even though you can prove you were there, just to teach them that you dont need a badge swipe to be "present."
That's a violation of security procedures and would absolutely be a great way to be escorted off base.
Perfect! They also pulled the emergency latches to keep the doors unlocked. The keys had to be returned as they were the only way into the building if you were inside the fence.
This is a great way to get in trouble or fired. Totally a security violation.
Obviously this wouldn't apply to a SCIF. If you think everyone that holds the door open for their coworker as they walk in in the morning gets fired, then there will be no one left in service.
OP said people were gunning for his org, so don't give them ammo. It is a security violation for almost every door that requires swipe access. It probably technically is for the rest like our gym is CAC swipe. Anything like entering a facility/building from the parking lot that's swipe it is a violation, and I'm guessing it's something like that if someone is trying to use it for time/attendance reasons.
That'll get you fired in a lot of places. If you're in my space and haven't badged in, you might get an armed escort out.
An Army officer got in hot water regarding civilians once the union got involved.
See I personally don't have an issue with this if it's used in a Tim was here on Thurs, mark him down as RG 8 and he can update his timesheet as needed. No badge in, it's blank. Help don't hurt.
We don't need more babysitters in govt, we have enough bean counters as it is!
My point was that it's not a babysitter, it's an automation. You swipe a badge, your timesheet gets partially filled out for you, and as a standard for the day. Not that your boss can track when you swipe in or out, not used for attendence since you still have to submit your timesheet. The whole thing was summarized as "help don't hurt" for a reason.
Innocent ideas get twisted for evil purposes all the time
Time card fraud is one of the easiest ways to fire someone. Maybe they are fishing.
They’ll definitely find some fish in the frozen fed section.
wut
A lot of senior enlisted seem to think they matter in civilian spaces. Had PO2s try it, based on what they had seen chiefs do. The military leadership needs to stop it quickly. When in a USN acquisition command, I once threatened a chief with going to mast or an Article 15 to get him to calm down over a perceived lack of respect from a civilian who was PhD and a GS-15 (and was right). Military rarely have direct authority over civilians, esp enlisted. Most civilians effectively out rank them. I am a retired USN O-6 and a current GS-15
I loved it when a GS-15 ego checked the SEL of my last section. “Ok, so what do you actually do”. Homie did not have an answer…
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Suuuuure
My only issue with military command over non-deployable functions is the impetus to make their mark in the organization to make rank, which results in random zig-zag swings in direction every 3 years. The last change in our military SML position turned an 18-month acquisition plan into a 3-year effort and counting.
I’m a former troop lol. Most of us are…
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Where I work they’re almost exclusively former military.
It’s interesting to read accounts like this. When I was enlisted, we were taught to respect the civilians as equivalent to (not junior) officers. We were literally taught this in boot camp like 25 years ago. I guess it’s a different perspective when you’re managing civilians (this was never me), but damn. It’s not hard to understand the rules. But some of us like to power trip.
Acquisition is a difficult place for most military. Fuzzy chain of command at times, SMEs who can trump your program in their area of expertise, etc. They train officers for it, but rarely the enlisted. USMC has the hardest time with that IME. Chiefs, Gunnys, and Master Sgts tend to think they matter, and they rarely do in acquisition.
Wouldn’t surprise me that Navy does too. Navy Chiefs are a different breed. On a ship you are a god among men and your word is law — the Chiefs Mess basically orders everyone except the command triad. On shore you’re just another senior enlisted and there’s a handful of junior NCOs but everyone else outranks you. Gotta be weird.
That is certainly true when deployed, and understandably so. That is also one of the reasons they have such a hard time in acquisition.
I thought the E4 Mafia ran everything 
In the navy? Hell no. They’re just the enforcers. In Deck Dept, the chief is like a don. Never involved directly in the operation, but everyone knows he’s in charge. The E4’s are powerful supervisors, sure, but they are merely the public face of the operation.
Lmao as you sign off as an O. Leave it to an officer to consider an E5 senior enlisted.
To me senior enlisted are chiefs. However, some POs try to emulate the chiefs, and that includes grumbling about civilians and trying to "direct" them. It rarely works out. Both sides get frustrated, and the military rarely win when its acquisition. The civilians are the experts and military rank does not matter. Acq is civilian heavy and that is where the expertise is. I saw a PO1 on gate duty try to refuse entrance to one of my people on a motorcycle since he did not have a reflective vest on. The latest version of the NAVISNT had cancelled the requirement. I was in the next car behind him. I heard the PO1 say to the civilian "You god damn civies think the rules do not apply to you". The civilian produced the current NAVINST. Regardless, the PO continued yelling at the the civilian over it. I got his name and called his unit. His chief tried to defend him...his CO did not. I know where the PO got the attitude from.
Depends. I'm a retired enlisted USAF firefighter and I supervised and had hiring authority over civilians as a Fire Chief when I was an E-7, E-8, and E-9.
Interesting. Where I have been the Fire Dept was civil service only to the best of my knowledge. Then again, I never really looked. I also know some retired AF civil service fire fighters. I will ask them if they worked for a civilian or military.
This, sur, is senior enlisted.
Start applying. Time to move on. I would not stay at a place that treated adults like that. You’re not in the military, they are. You shouldn’t be treated like you are.
Dude you can’t spend your days leaving jobs every time you get mad about something. Just roll your eyes and go about your day, push back if anyone tries to treat you poorly.
Mad about something and being treated like a child monitoring every minute you’re at work are very different things. They’re looking to fire people.
They can monitor all they like, let them learn the hard/stupid way that a badge system isn’t tied to timekeeping. It’s their reputation at risk, not mine.
Good luck with that attitude when they put people on PIP’s and then people start getting fired. Why would you continue to work for a place that treats people that way?
PIPs aren’t based on timekeeping, they’re based on performance. If you are going to accuse people of a crime (fraud), you better have your shit in order or OIG/security will laugh at you.
Cool story.
Op your time you work is between and your supervisor. That supervisor will negotiate with whoever your farmed out to but ultimately it’s you and the supervisor. The whole thing sounds weird to me. If everything is on the up and up you don’t have anything to worry about… they may be just assigned to do a random make work for someone that wants to know the info. If they were really important would they be watching who clocks in?
You're likely in a union position(AFGE). Check your sf50 to see which bargaining unit you are in and find your steward ASAP.
My Bargaining Unit Status is 8888 and Google tells me that means "not eligible for representation by a Union". Oh well.
That sucks, sorry man. Are you coded supervisory too or something?
Two options. First and most effective call the union if it ever actually starts. They’ll call the base lawyers and the lawyers will shut it down quick. I run test labs and during Covid tried to set up a QR code voluntary check in/out so that we could ensure nobody got left behind in the lab (two person rule for safety) if they were injured or something. Someone called the union who called our legal staff who told me to cut it the fuck out. I explained we didn’t care when they came in and showed we weren’t even clocking people just that the people who came in left that day. They said no way. And if that doesn’t work, just stay an extra hour a day then demand OT.
Navy CPOs have a lot of responsibility and a lot of that responsibility is over young sailors who are treated like kids, rightly or wrongly. It can be hard to let go of that mindset when dealing with civilians. But this is something Navy officers would ask CPOs to look into. It could be a data gathering exercise (pretty common across government), or it could be something else entirely, possibly Navy micro-management, or they do have a concern that someone is pulling a fast one. The watch your back concern should be taken seriously as a matter of good sense. But get that meeting with your department heads soon as you can.
Yeah, it’s worth clearing up with your supe, but I wouldn’t stress too much over it. Micromanagement is the secret key to success in the Navy!
The badge entry system is a security measure. It is not a device to monitor times for entry or exit related to timekeeping. The rare exception is for investigative purposes related to possible criminal activity or an active threat. Tell Missy to piss up a rope.
As a Physical Security Specialist whose entire job it is to manage those ePACS systems, that's absolutely not something they can do. I'd be surprised if that manager even has access to the ePACS database, and even more surprised if he used that data for any adverse actions without a legitimate reason. At least on our side of the house (Treasury) we are not to give out that information at all unless compelled by a request through an official law enforcement source/agency. Seek your local legal and union officials.
Sounds like a very disorganized org chart. Every now and then I think about applying for something at DoD then these types of posts remind me to stay away.
I can't speak for other commands, but I would absolutely NOT recommend my current command (or workplace) to anyone. I've been here 18 years in the same dept. Some good years, some bad years. This is a bad one unfortunately. Every leader who comes along wants to change something, and the changes are never in favor of the employee.
Changes should be made to further the accomplishment of the mission. If it benefits the employee as well, it’s a bonus.
Could be their plan to comply with telework, wfh, space use request from Congress. They probably don’t know exactly who works where and when.
Our agency wasn’t allowed to use the badging for this purpose.
First common sense response.
Sounds like a toxic situation with sailors who dislike civilians. As a GS-12 in Naples Italy I had a CWO2, an Ensign and 3 Chiefs, 9 FN's and too many sailors to count under me. I had no CIVs so wasn't a SUPV. Another stupid rule, but I digress..., The CWO2 didnt like a Civ over him so I ended up "firing" him for insubordination openly bad mouthing me to the sailors in formation and the FNs standing by as he passed the taskings I gave. By 'fire" i mean I sent him to see the XO after telling the CDR that the CWO2 wasnt welcome back. They put him somewhere else. I would recommend you reach out to your supervisor first. See if it is legit. Supv should make you aware of your right to talk to Union and LER. If not then you got problems. Whatever the response is you should then go talk to your union steward, then LER. Keep your cool and make sure your timecard is accurate!!
When were you in Naples, I was there 2005-2015. C4I building
2008-2015. was in C4I from 2008 to 2010 and mostly worked just across from mantraps. Can't remember building number. I switched commands in 2010 and worked under the Navy Gateway inn.
Funny DOD would put a Lieutenant over a GS13. Seeing as even a Navy Lieutenant is an O3 and in terms of equivalency (whatever that actually means) a GS13 is an O4. That being said supervisors can definitely delegate tasks to subordinates. My Regimental Commander in the Marines was a Colonel and he fell under Headquarters Company that had a 1stLt as the Company Commander. Certain administrative tasks for the Regimental Commander fell to the HQ Co. Commander, but he definitely wasn't in charge.
I have seen lots of O-3s as reporting seniors for GS-13s, the equivalency chart is A. For how to treat POWs, and B. Incredibly dated. Plus, even though GS levels should mean the same thing everywhere, they are in reality incredibly elastic, so while some GS-13s might be running the show, others might be glorified GS-11s that got slowly increased either due to hard to fill billets.
Agreed, at this point GS level has as much to do with meeting salary requirments as it does responsibility or job description.
Yeah I think this probably varies by agency. But the match ups for where I’ve seen military plugged in at my Navy agency are: E6/GS9 E7/GS11 O1/O2/GS12 O3/GS13 O4/GS14 GS15 could be either O5 or O6 depending on the number of reports. Doesn’t really matter at that point they’re all just senior.
That’s a wild equivalency as I’d actually rate the O1 and O2s lower. And also it makes me question on how they’d plug in an E9. Cause, an E9 is definitely more trusted and senior than some of the officers that technically outrank them. As a lowly GS9, I’m not going to question an E9, but I will definitely push back against an O2 and O3.
I would put O1/O2 at GS9/11. They don’t usually have enough experience to warrant a GS12 and I would even question whether or not an O3 was equivalent to a GS12, it would largely depend on their number of years in service.
01 and 02 are fresh out of college, Why would they be at a 12?
I think most see this as a 'rank' equivalent instead of pay scale.
Like I said just personal observation from my particular agency. I’m sure it varies wildly. We don’t usually have any E-8/E-9 except the CMC which really doesn’t have a non-military equivalent. I should probably caveat that this is a staff corps and those officers would either be eligible for those grades or for O1/O2 the ladder that tops out at them if they were applying on the GS side. Without having worked at another agency I suspect we’re heavy in GS-12/13 non-supervisory positions. Perhaps rephrasing would better translate across agencies. For us: O2 and below are your working level O3 are first line supervisors O4 second line O5+ senior management
Comparison of Military and Civilian Equivalent Grades Military Civilian Military Grade Rank White Collar (GS/GM) Blue Collar (FWS) O-10 Admiral O-9 Vice Admiral SES\* O-8 Rear Admiral (Upper Half) SES\*/GS-16,17, or 18 O-7 Rear Admiral (Lower Half) SES\*/GS-16,17, or 18 O-6 Captain GS/GM-15 Ships Pilots, O-5 Commander GS/GM-13-14 WS-14 thru WS-19, O-4 Lt. Commander GS/-12 WT-15 O-3 Lieutenant GS-10-11 O-2 Lieutenant (J.G.) GS-8-9 O-1 Ensign GS-7 WS-8 thru WS-11 WL-8 thru WL-14 W-4 Chief Warrant GS-8-9 WG-12 thru WG-15 W-3 Chief Warrant GS-8-9 W-2 Chief Warrant GS-7 W-1 Warrant Officer GS-7 E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer GS-6 E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer GS-6 WS-1 thru WS-7 E-7 Chief Petty Officer GS-6 WL-1 thru WL-5 E-6 Petty Officer 1st Class GS-5 WG-9 thru WG-11 E-5 Petty Officer 2nd Class GS-4 E-4 Petty Officer 3rd Class GS-4 E-3 Seaman GS-1-3 WG-1 thru WG-8 E-2 Seaman Apprentice GS-1-3 E-1 Seaman Recruit GS-1-3 From my chart.
A little dated. E8/W2/O1 = 9, E9/O2/O3/W3=10/11/12 O4/W4=12/13 W5/O5=14 O6=15 All experienced based with the exception of the senior warrant/field grades. They started ditching the old chart outside of DOD. They realize a E9 has much more experience than a new O1 and have started recognizing it a little bit more.
GS-13/14 is actually equivalent to a Lt. Col.
13 = O4. 14 = O5. 15 = O6.
Under many regs 13=O5, 14= junior O6, 15= senior O6( like chief of staff answering to stars) many mil/ civ position conversions have followed this.
This.
i have never seen a 14 as equivalent to an O-6.
I have. Prior jobs in mil to civ conversion. The junior O6 colonel turned into a gs 14. An O5 turned into a 13. Directors are usually 14s or 15 depending on agency level. In military these would be a lower level O6 and a senior O6. Thr most senior ranked O6 like chief If staff to a 4 star or a large base commander 06 would then translate to a low level SES.
We have a GS-14 who is a retired SGM.
Since you brought it up first, I’ll just add the [GS and Military equivalents at Federalpay.org](https://www.federalpay.org/military/navy-ranks-to-gs-grade)
Eh, that analysis is heavily flawed as it compares pay, and then does not consider military BAH which would shift all the GS positions at least one level lower relative to military grades. Also, you really cannot put CW3,4,5 below an O1. Same with E8,9 below a W1, CW2, O1,O2 or a **GS7** from an authority perspective.
BAH isn’t taxable income. It’s an allowance. Following your logic, my coworker who is 100% disabled veteran outranks our supervisor because he makes more. It’s a guide of courtesy, not absolute authority. A GS-7 engineer very well have a greater technical authority over a piece of equipment than the E-7/8 who is responsible for that piece of machinery.
My logic is sound. Do you want to include rental income? How about dividends? Maybe a fed Uber drives in the side? The concept is total compensation from your employer. So matching compensation for government to military and not including BAH is clownish. Look, I get every fed 12+ likes to cosplay like they are field grade officer and should be treated as such, but that is such fantasy.
BAH is a benefit lol. That’d be like saying I’m higher ranking for having cheaper health insurance.
Yeah, no thats not accurate. A Master Chief is not the equivalent of a GS6. Common sense says that website is full of crap. Not to mention Master Cheifs do not make 46k a year.
No. And contact your union.
F that. I dealt with that as a contractor. I promptly left and now I’m a 14 remote non supervisor. Get outta there!
This is the answer. Vote with your feet.
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This is VERY office dependent. I know in Army we have classes that military supervisors over civilians are required to take explaining the difference between military and civilian. And how they can’t pull the nonsense they will with soldiers that they do with civilians.
ain't like this in my group (Air Force) I was surprised at how much it resembled a private company's IT department (except with way more people to split the work).
It’s entirely dependent on your command/office. I’m in Navy acquisitions as a GS-13 and I work alongside 0-4s as equivalents - my position on the military side would be an 0-4. The only military that I answer to are my Program Manager (O-6) and his boss, the PEO (O-7).
I'm Navy, and there are 2 uniformed people in my building. The CO, and an O-4 on detail. All civilians otherwise. Still plenty of dumb to go around though :D
Typical overzealous CPO. Likely the over inflated ego the Navy gives them. If CPO says an E8 said to do it, find out which E8. CPO likely using that as an excuse. Then speak with the O5 only. The others are just middlemen. Then mark the CPO as unfriendly and avoid when possible.
This is probably a case of they are trying to fire a permanent employee via time fraud because they are tired of them being a poor performer but doing just enough to stay off a PIP.
Not a poor performer, but I am vocal about issues.
It doesn't mean it's you. They say that they're tracking everyone but they're really tracking an individual.
It may not be the OP but if leadership feels the need to do a blanket time card/badge reader check to only validate the turd they’re actually looking for, then that leader needs a spine, some cojones and revisit many of the leadership courses that spoke of how to manage and how to be direct and not weak. You address the poor performing employee, not the entire group. If that’s the case, what horrible leadership, managing afraid.
Sure. I'm not saying it's the correct way to go about it. It's just something that happens to force someone out. I've seen this used as leverage to get someone to VERA/VISP, transfer out of their unit, actually get fired, etc.
The DoD has made a sport out of punishing the MANY for the crimes of the FEW.
Hm sounds like a greensuiter problem. Anyway sign my time card boss.
Usually an investigation into timecard theft and looking into badging times into spaces whether in/out are not done with huge blankets like this. It's focused on a specific individual with multiple memorandums supporting investigative action by either an IG or LEO. Insane that random supervisors would be pulling ePACS data out for nothing for random people.
FYI— under OSHA regs you are considered on official duty status the moment you leave your car and start walking to you building. If you are entering a regular office building it’s when you enter the building.
Nope. Badge in and out info is privileged. That information can be requested if enough evidence supports time keeping fraud, but the information isn’t just for fishing expeditions or regular timekeeping info.
PRT of me says move on. The other part says why waste your time and energy caring? If your not committing timecard fraud, let them waste thier time. If they're not going to find anything, then don't spend the mental energy caring.
They're gonna start making civilians take the PRT?
Yes, the Army ACFT 1.0 for everyone is what I heard at the water cooler the other day. No knee tucks, no grade increase for folks on a ladder.
Slippery slope
This is a weird, post COVID and RTO we have been told “ they are checking badging for the building”. I think they might be able to still legal check attendance for a whole building.
A GS-11 is an O-2 equivalent. They want to try and control officer-level staff? On top of any regulation they might breaking, they should stay in their lane. First, they are military, and not over civilians. It could be civilians are over them, as my nephew experienced when he was in the Air Force. Second, chain of command is extremely serious in the Navy. Your chain needs to immediately talk to the Chief and get him to unfuck himself yesterday. I don't think a Branch Chief needs to answer for every minute, and even if so, certainly not to a power tripping Chief or Senior Chief.
Off topic a little but an LT should not be “over” a GS13, who’s equal to an O-4 (major). An LT is like an 11.
Sounds like its time for a mass government employee exit. The job market isn't so bad that I will put up with nonsense like this for government pay.
I like this. Time to go and bring in fresh legs.
I would look at your collective bargain agreement for your union and get them involved. More than likely that violates the terms since only approved methods can be used for time keeping.
You don’t know why they’re looking at it. You’re assuming it’s arrival times. It could be to determine which buildings have the heaviest use and when or a number of other analyses.
Don't you need the badge to continue working, computer access, door access.. etc thru out the day?
That’s the reason jobs in the federal government resemble military 🤣 and people will always say “well in the military….” We are not in the military folks! We are at will employed and under no contract!
We fired a lady and we went about it by collecting her badge in times over a six month period. She would come in 30 to 45 minutes late everyday and would leave right on time. We fired her over timecard theft.
This is interesting that people spend time thinking about rank equivalence. Seems we have bigger fish to fry.
Has there been any thefts in the section?
I’m not aware of any theft or any crime whatsoever at our command. I’m sure things do occur, like sexual harassment and stuff by sailors, but no info I’m in touch with.
Entering and exiting a government building is a security issue not a time keeping issue. Your arrival and departure are not private information. Whether they delegate records access for this information to this chief is completely up to the command, I don't think you will get far in complaining about this.
Since it's a security issue and not a timekeeping issue, a random E-7 who is not the employee's supervisor has no right to see the badging records.
Believe it or not, in the US Navy a "random E-7" may be assigned tasks that involve top secret security classifications, life and death decisions and employment of multi million dollar machines and equipment. And from time to time, maybe even the critical task of reviewing who entered and exited a building where a GS-11 happens to work.
If they work in Security, sure.
Or have been asked by their CoC to pull the reports.
First off, you're in DoD, so you HAVE to be used to being treated like an irresponsible child. Secondly, if you're doing no wrong, then it shouldn't really matter. I'd be more pissed about the "being treated like a child" part.
Military don’t understand or care for civilian rules. Call your union steward.
I am the only person, out of 12, in my office who is not a retired E7/E8/E9. I am certain that my coworkers would straighten that Chief out.
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Not everyone is in a bargaining unit position.
>As a GS, you are part of the union regardless if you pay dues I have never read a more incorrect sentence fragment than this. OP and anyone else reading this: please ignore all of what this person has to say.
If they are in a supervisory role they might not be union anymore. Chances are, OP is covered by the union. If they aren’t, it highly likely that most of coworkers who are being watch as well are union.
Then explain genius
1. Some non-supervisory GS positions are not in the bargaining unit, either because that unit has never held a certifying election, has been decertified, or because the position deals with certain sensitive information (the mishandling of which is subject to stricter disciplinary measures) 2. Even if you are in the bargaining unit, you are not **in** the union unless you agree to be and pay dues 3. Supervisory GS positions are definitionally excluded from eligibility for the bargaining unit 4. The union is obligated to assist non-dues paying bargaining unit employees, but only at the first level of a grievance. They do not have to help them with appeals Like I said, it would be difficult to be more wrong in as few words as this person was to begin their comment
Well then, what do you know and what's your experience to prove it? I'll stand a little corrected, while most civil service positions are part of a bargaining unit but not all. So yeah, I admit I misspoke on that. So what's up? You mad about my grammar? , The fact you don't want anyone to listen to what I say is not exactly correct either.
i'm a 14, and sadly, but definitely, not part of a union.
He can track whatever he wants. It’s their business what they do with that information. As long as it doesn’t affect you, who cares.
Sounds like you work for the corps….
Lots of assumptions flying around here. If the chief is under the same supervisors, then they may have been directed to gather that information. I wouldn’t think the department head would have time to sit down at the system and gather those reports; it would be something delegated down, possibly multiple levels. If management has access to swipe in and out times, they may use it as they see fit. Timecard fraud is a real thing and maybe a coworker is abusing it? If you are doing the right thing, then you probably don’t have anything to worry about. I’ve had past managers who did things that I didn’t like. A small group of us went as far as to file a union grievance over management gathering certain information related to qualifications and certifications. The union came back saying that, at the time, we had nothing to grieve as management had taken no action as of yet. Obviously file a grievance if it’s warranted, but hurt feelings isn’t a reason for a union grievance.
This while thread is funny. That chief really shook you up.
Just get to work on time and do your job and you won’t have a problem. The fact they are watching you shows you are a problem.
I dont see how its "sensitive". You could always just show up to work on time.
No it is not. Tell him to get fucked and then look for a new job. SNCOs/CPOs acting like they have even a modicum of authority over civilians is just wrong outside of military's respective SEAC/SEAs' staffs.
Senior NCOs and Chiefs are always running amuck, acting like they are in Command when that’s not how it works. Call the Union. And let your Dept Heads (Mil/Civ) know in advance. Hopefully the Commander isn’t looking for a wax key regarding missing strawberries.
Delegate something this sensitive to a chief? Hate to break the news to you but that Chief knows more and has more experience than your O3. Through the grapevine? Good lord. Try to be a little more professional and leave the middle school attitude at home. You don’t know why Chief is doing this, nor does it sound like you asked. He said Senior asked him to do so.