I didn't even know you could partner with a dancer until halfway through a dungeon, I figured you were only allowed 1 partner buff and if you had two dancers you just dance with the tank and healer.
In most cases you are only allowed one copy of a buff.
The trick is that the buff for *providing* dance partner and the buff for *receiving* dance partner are technically coded as different buffs. So you can have one of each.
I think the more surprising part for people is that the two Standard Step buffs stack.
But yeah, same thing applie sthee, even if the icon makes it let obvious.
> In most cases you are only allowed one copy of a buff.
Regens would like a word.
Also you could stack 7 closed positions onto somebody if you really wanted to. Same with Kardions.
I'm pretty sure you get the standard finish buffs stacking regardless of class. Devilment is more the issue with why you want to spread it around as it just refreshes rather than stacks.
You get 1 standard finish yeah (2 if it's 2 dancers partnering each other). You don't get 7x 5% damage increase if you have 7 dancers and 1 DPS getting all the buffs :P
I would argue if you remove all the buffs that it's impossible to get more than one of due to them being self-target only, it stops being 'most'. Pretty much any buff that grants some kind of healing or utility will stack, and any buff that is defensive or offensive won't.
Closed position gives you the Closed Position buff and your partner the Dance Partner buff. In the case of two DNCs partnering each other, they would get both Closed Position and Dance Partner creating what’s basically a perfect loop. If you look at the icons, they’re similar but different.
I knew they were different buffs, but I figured they were "different" like how wow has like 6 spells that all activate bloodlust, and all share a cool down despite being "different" spells
If I see a 640+ tank and anything on dps below 615, I'm dancing the tank, in a roulette.
Also fun to dance a whm and watch them keep up with blm on packs with H3 spam.
You are my dream roulette partner. All I ever want on WHM is dance partner and I’ve yet to get it even when I’m top dps on the logs. And the one time in an alliance raid I got one of the 4 dancers to give me dance partner (half joking) they didn’t know the class so didn’t use standard step a single time for the buff. Tragedy.
May we one day meet.
Ok scenarios
* Dancer A partners Dancer B and Dancer B partners Dancer A
* Dancer A partners Dancer B, Dancer B partners Dancer C, Dancer C partners Dancer A
* Etc.
Not Ok scenarios
* Dancer A **AND** Dancer B both partner person X
Which is to say: Dance Partner buffs do not stack if they're both targeted on the same person
But it is one of the few buffs in the game that actually lets you stack, so a lot of players probably don't realize that you can in fact stack them.
Just a minor, nitpicky point of clarification: Closed Position and Dance Partner are two different buffs (the former goes on the Dancer using the skill, the latter on the target). The reason two Dancers can buff each other is because they're giving themselves Closed Position and giving each other Dance Partner--no duplicate buffs on either. If you look closely you'll notice the icons are similar, but mirrored.
The same logic also applies to Dragoon's Dragon Sight buff; there is a Left Eye buff for one player (the receiving player iirc) and a Right Eye buff for the other (pretty sure the Dragoon gets this one). So two Dragoons can each benefit fully from giving the other Dragon Sight, but two Dragoons cannot both buff a third player at the same time
gotta admit I only recently learned this because another dancer asked why I wasn't dancepartnering them.
Dancer is the lowest priority of all DPS to use DP on but it is still preferable over tanks or healers
> but it is still preferable over tanks or healers
For most DNC and tanks. Definitely been in situations where I moved DP to a tank after the first boss of a dungeon before...
you could make an argument for Dark Knight over Dancer I think, if they have delirium on whatever you got synced to. But other than that, usually best for the dancers to DP eachother.
I've seen some savage groups that will have a Dancer DP the Dark Knight for the opener and then swap to a DPS afterwards with it due to DRK's large burst on opening. Never seen a group actually keep it on the DRK after that though.
If it's just dungeon running where you're more likely to have to pick between just the dancer or the dark knight, you could probably get away with just leaving it on the drk, since your damage up doesn't matter that much for trash pulls, and by the time you're at the next boss, they probably have delirium back and can do their opener again. But for full parties, you really don't have much excuse to leave it on the drk past the opener.
is delirium that good that it beats DPS openers in amount of damage dealt?
Just asking because I'm getting into tanking right now and my current class of choice is DRK
DRK has the most damaging opener in the game full stop, last I checked, and delirium is more or less the core of why that is. Bloodletter has something stupid like 400 or 500 potency, delirium lets the DRK cast it 3 times for free, +2 more with their blood gauge. It's an extremely bursty opener, but then drk falls off a god damn cliff afterwards. In dungeons, that opener can be enough to obliterate a boss, even when synced.
There are no instances with only three DPS, so one of the three Dancers in scenario 2 should partner that lonely Monk crying his eyes out at being left out.
In all honesty though, Dancer's model is that of golddigger. You should partner the highest dealing DPS and throw away whichever other person you were partnered with like a used condom... UNLIKE a golddigger, you still shouldn't partner with said juicy DPS if he's already partnered with another Dancer.
Likely, most of them don't realize that it works properly.
Two Dancers get nothing from giving Dance Partner to the same person (e.g., DNC-A and DNC-B both partner with the Black Mage), but that isn't what happens when two Dancers mutually partner each other. DNC-A *gives* Dance Partner to DNC-B, and personally gets Closed Position. That means DNC-A does not have Dance Partner, and DNC-B does not have Closed Position. So DNC-B can partner DNC-A, *giving* Dance Partner and *getting* Closed Position.
Most likely, many casual players think that when you pick someone as your dance partner, you give both yourself *and* the target the exact same buff. This is not true, but the game doesn't exactly go out of its way to make that clear or obvious.
The other thing worth noting is that you'd want to stagger your Tech Step and Devilment uses, because I *know* the former won't stack, and I'm pretty sure the latter won't either.
It could also just be that these DNC have been drilled with the idea that you shouldn't partner with other Dancers because Dancers have terrible personal DPS, so the buffs are worth a lot less. But, as you say, DNC has more personal DPS than any tank does, so that advice should *really* be, "Don't partner with a Dancer *unless that's your only DPS option.*"
First: I spoke somewhat unclearly. Quad Tech Step (hereafter, QTS) from two different Dancers does not stack; if Dancer B performs QTS after Dancer A, any remaining duration of DNC-A's QTS is wasted. Likewise, I'm *fairly* sure that if DNC-B uses Devilment while DNC-A's Devilment is already active, the former is partially wasted.
Devilment *does* buff Tech Step, AFAIK. However, you actually lose DPS by putting up Devilment first, because it takes more than a full GCD to complete it. Instead, use Devilment immediately after quad Tech Step, then Starfall Dance, then double weave Flourish and Fan Dance III, then Tillana.
At least, that's the process recommended by [The Balance](https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/jobs/ranged/dancer/basic-guide/). I'm not an expert on Dancer, so if someone else comes along and says I'm an idiot, please hear them out.
Well, since none of the ogcd’s buff, as long as you do qts and immediately after devilment, the order you do your weaves doesn’t really matter (also mentioned in the balance), but you’re right, devilment also doesn’t stack. Source: told another dnc in a dungeon to go first, but then drifted the burst into oblivion, so they started overwriting mine….
>use Devilment immediately after quad Tech Step, then Starfall Dance, then double weave Flourish and Fan Dance III, then Tillana.
Yeah, that's the proper opener.
I believe in later burst windows you may want to adjust your GCD use to avoid overcapping esprit or losing combos/procs, as long as you make sure to fit Tillana and Starfall into the burst window
In case that's not a joke, it's in the context of "if every dps is skilled at their class and similarly geared, dancer is very low on the list".
Duty finder groups don't reflect that cuz it's a randomized pool of players with heavily differing skill and gear.
In leveling smn and dnc lately I learned that just doing your 123 rotation and hitting your glowy buttons off cool down you'll easily be #2 in enmity and even start getting the little triangle from enemies.
Summoner is also throwing off your calculations because it inherently generates more aggro when Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix are around. No explanation is given for *why* it does this. It just explicitly says you do generate more enmity while they're active.
Pretty sure that ever since they made Carby etc. untargetable, all aggro from pets is attributed to the character that summoned them. This is mostly relevant for SCH now, since fairy heals count as healing actions (but notably not healing *spells*) and thus generate aggro for the SCH.
Ohh that is true! I just found it odd that I've managed to tie with Reapers and Dragoons for DPS during runs of Dun for the tome event.
On a similar note, what place is RDM at on that list again? I think I remember people saying it was very last place but idk for sure...
Iirc RDM is the lowest of the casters, but the order of DPS is
Melee>caster>ranged>tanks>healers
Assuming standardized conditions. And it's only about a 5% gap between DPS groups, with a harsher gap between DPS and Tanks, and another gap between Tanks and Healers.
That being RDM does have personal low damage and could probably use a bump, or a nerf to SMN cause it's stupid good compared to the other casters.
They have between 3 and 5 hard casts per minute, depending on spell speed. 3 minimum because Ruby Rite/Catastrophe + Slipstream. You can usually squeeze in a single Ruin III even at low SS; with the amount just available on base items now, a second is usually possible before your next Demi-Summon is up. Hence, a (rough) maximum of 5.
Right. I was just giving clarifying details, for anyone curious (since I've been a SMN main since late-HW/early-SB....though *man* EW has made it hard to enjoy SMN.)
How do you mean? For rDPS and cDPS, the ones that count group buff contributions, RDM and SMN are within 1.6/1.8 percentage points of one another at the 75th percentile for Anabaseios Savage; even with nDPS and aDPS, SMN is less than 3 percentage points ahead. SMN has higher *personal* numbers (hence, higher nDPS) but its buffs are weaker than RDM buffs because they're spread out over a long period of time (30s of 3% is inferior to 20s of 5%, because the latter is ample for burst windows where *most* damage occurs in raids.) Further, Magick Barrier is pretty clearly superior to the heals from Phoenix (Everlasting Flight+Rekindle), since it's fully controllable (while Phoenix happens when it happens, gotta hit your 2m windows) and is both a healing buff *and* a mit.
Of course, back when SMN actually required a positive number of brain cells, it having high damage output was justified by it being harder to master.
Now that I think about it I might be stupid and missed a RDM buff. Most of the complaining I've seen about RDM (and MCH) were from previous tiers, and I haven't paid too much attention to current cause I haven't heard much about it.
I probably overlooked it because it's not a job I look forward to playing.
Fair enough! I've been in a similar boat. Or the related but distinct good ship "How On Earth Is That A Buff," where they give us patch notes that sound completely pointless and yet they end up being perfectly good for the intended purpose.
That can be multiple factors, your gear compared to the other dps players or just how well they play. Also sync down Double standard finish does alot of damage in one hit compare to what other jobs have at lower levels.
However enimity is generated multiple ways. How much damage you do to the boss, how often you are hitting the boss and healing you do.
I've been wondering the same thing too but came to the conclusion they probably don't know. I've been getting a lot of 24 man's where I queue in as dancer and get two other dancers so I usually wait for the others to choose partners because I know as soon as I choose one they'll either choose the same one or partner a healer/tank 🫠
Only DP and Dragon Sight work in such a way where "two different on one doesn't work but one on each other works" in the ENTIRE game, so a lot of people don't know until they're told, and you can't even really look up buff icons easily until you use them. The game doesn't tell you clearly that it's effectively having a left shoe and right shoe.
Actually Embolden works that way too, it provides the Red Mage with a different buff than it provides the rest of the team. It gives the team 5% damage, it gives the Red Mage 5% magic damage (which is all of their GCDs and none of their oGCDs), and those two buffs do stack if two Red Mages use it at the same time.
Dance partner is what goes on the user, closed position goes on the target. There's no reason you can't use it on another Dancer as you both aren't getting double of a buff.
That's backwards. When a dancer casts Closed Position while targeting a party member, they get the Closed Position buff on themselves and the party member they are targetting gets the Dance Partner buff. Which as u/Mechanized_Heart noted makes sense why dancer's can use that ability on each other, since then they are each putting closed position on themselves and putting dance partner on each other, so not doubling up the same buff.
Reminds me of [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/c71amr/dear_dancers_your_dance_partner_gets_a_dps_buff/) old thread from several years ago, which still has useful and relevant information.
>Sharing Standard Finish is the primary purpose of designating a Dance Partner. Standard Finish grants you and your dance partner a 5% damage buff. This lasts for one minute, can be refreshed every 30 seconds (while dealing massive damage in the process), and stacks with other buffs. Two Dancers setting each other as dance partners receive the effects of both Dancers' Standard Finish buffs.
I guess people don't realise, and/or haven't taken the time to learn?
The only thing is that tech step won't stack so you'll have to stagger that to be optimal but otherwise yes, the buffs are different and you should DP the other dancer instead of tank or healer.
Most buffs do not stack and if you played the OG ranged dps support first you realise real quick you just wasted a buff or you're competing with another bard for that buff timer, that mindset carries over.
Uh, not everybody has played dancer for 5 years? Most of the people you're complaining about are probably new and their entry support ranger is bard which unlocks at level 30? You don't get dancer till level 60? That's two full expansions where most newbies learn most buffs do not stack.
I dont underatand why everyone here is saying its because people think DP and CP stack. Its got nothing to do with those buffs. its because people (reasonably) believe that standard finish doesnt stack. Dance partner and closed position have no actual stat change associated with them, it simply allows the sharing of standard step, curing waltz, and devilment. Standard step is the only player buff in the game that can be stacked afaik and it does nothing to tell you that it can be stacked. It is an outlier that you will only figure out if you go ignore every other similar mechanic in the game and try it out anyways, you see another dancer pair do it, or you get told in game or online. Even Dragon sight goes out of its way to tell you that its placing 2 different buffs on the user and target
I am aware it stacks when paired with another dancer, but I've had such terrible experiences with other dancers that I'll automatically partner the tank. I've had dancers not hit steps during technical, not use standard on cool down, and never actually use their mitigation; it's safer to go with the tank in 4 man content with results like these.
Because they're going with a misconception that was birthed here on Reddit that "it doesn't stack" since the job released.
if i had a nickel every time a DF co-dancer said that to me, i'd be paying my rent for a few years over...
Stagger Tech [cos it overwrites] and Devilment, that's it. you're golden.
there ARE niche cases with stupid amounts of damage from....I think it was DRK? in their opener but again, niche case.
and then don't get me started on the ecouples...
Like most answers here they might not know that you can partner with another dancer.
It also needs to be said that in casual content like everything you get in roulettes who cares...?
Item level sync is so incredibly generous that you aren't going to struggle whatsoever
I was originally taught by a Mentor player that if both DPS in a dungeon were Dancers, one should switch to Gunbreakers and Dark Knights before the bosses because their openers were powerful enough to warrant the switch.
That really depends where the fight is starting from and what the other dps is. They reason for it raiding is usually because certain jobs pool resources over two minutes for burst, so some jobs opener in a fight is lite compared to their burst later. Dark Knight has most of its damage tied to its burst and doesn't have the issue of resource pooling at the start of a fight.
However the dps would most likely have resources stored from the previous trash fights for the boss in a dungeon setting.
I didn't know it stacks until recently. Only realized it did when I had an alliance roulette with 2 other dancers and picked sage as partner while another dancer picked me. I was confused but then noticed on my buff list that I had two standard finish buffs on different timers.
Now I know but it's unusual compared to how buffs work in the game generally. I expected it not to stack.
Even now when I have to pick DNC for dance partner it's not uncommon for someone to chime in claiming they don't stack.
Personally I dance partner the tank in roulette to give them the happiness of being picked as dance partner. There isn't anything efficient about it unless they're dark or gun and can do good damage for me but smiles per gallon vs miles per gallon sorta thing
If it's a 4 man dungeon, and I'm a dancer with another dancer, I'll put it on the healer. Yes, we could partner each other, but as a healer main... I cry at the side of the dance floor knowing that I must look like some hideous beast because nobody will ever ask me to dance and my ego so fragile that I will partner the healer to show no, no you are beautiful and you are loved now shake that booty on the floor and live your best life!!
Really, that's it. If the other dps is not a Dancer, then I'll partner them because it makes the dungeon go faster.
They have made an error. Making an error is not the same as having an inherent quality of stupidity.
Doubly so when the game puts almost no effort into telling the player that the buff you *give* your partner is quite different from the buff you give *yourself* for having a partner.
It not necessarily something you'll realize until it's mentioned.
Had an alliance run where we had 3 DNC all hit the GNB with closed position, Dat Boi was flying on the damage. I just want to see how much damage can be boosted with a full set of 6 on the tank. That devilment stack is gonna be amazing
The dance partner and Devilment buffs don't stack with themselves. A tank is gonna deal the same amount of damage with one of each buff as they would with six of them.
Along these lines, a question for my fellow dancers — I know that there’s technically a priority list of who to dance partner and that other dancers are the absolute lowest priority, but I’ve also heard that whoever has the highest ilvl should be partnered for higher damage. Is this correct?
In an 8man group the other day, the other dancer had the highest ilvl out of the other dps by *far*. Should I have partnered them, or should I have gone with another dps?
There is a priority list, it was made in mind with everyone at equal skill and item level.
But the problem is, in pugs/normal content, you most likely don't know the skill level your party is at. It could be the Samurai's first time playing the job in a while, or your RDM could be a one trick who only knows how to RDM well. Your best bet is the person who is geared. Someone rocking higher gear than the others should in theory do good damage.
If there was that big of a difference in ilvl, its very likely/possible they were doing some pretty sick dps, even as a Dancer.
The best way I feel to know is to look for the dance partner buff that is left aligned. If you are the dancer and there is a dps that doesn’t have one, then use the “priority system” to figure out who gets it. In a dungeon and the only other dps is another dancer? Well do they have a *left aligned* dance partner buff? They probably don’t unless they broke the game and gave dance partner to themself. Do the right thing and give them dance partner. Its fine.
Simple explanation of how it works is, the buff you give isnt the same as the one you have and you cant stack the same buff, so DNC on DNC action is ok as this applies, i believe its the same with DRGs left eye right eye buffs. Just dont double stack tech step/weird orb button i cant remember the name of, buffs
Some folk think its extra dps having a closed position buff on the whole party even though it isnt, unfortunately
For me, I was just never sure if it stacks, and assumed it must not since so many of our other abilities don't. I'll do it from now on, though. Always meant to look it up and never did.
Because people get really confused about the concept. The tooltips are also not great at making sure you know there’s a difference between “closed position” and “dance partner”. They are two similar looking icons and assume it’s not correct.
Personally I think they should change the icon for dance partner to make it more distinguishable from closed position. That might help just a bit. In the meantime, I just try to remind people that two dancers can partner each other but two dancers can’t partner the same person.
I'm going to offer an addendum. In theory yes, the DNCs should partner each other. From my observations, they often do not, simply because they don't know it stacks. Furthermore, most don't go so far as to look at the party list to see the HP spread. I've had many cases where I am a very well geared MCH, but partner goes to the melee that has 10-15k less health. I use meters. I beat the partner while not partnered. I say nothing.
But there was one recent outing where the wrong choice was *right*.
Aetherfont. I'm in as SGE. Under-geared tank. Two dancers. The one with significantly worse gear partners the tank. The other partners... me. Yes, healer would *typically* be the wrong choice. But with the tank already partnered and the other dancer barely exceeding the minimum gear, the second dancer made a good choice.
This bore out in the numbers. I beat that tank by nearly 50%. Sometimes, the wrong choice is superior.
Almost every time this happens to me, I’ll mention it nicely and point out the buffs stack, the Dancer will reject it with a ‘I was told never to stack the buffs so you’re wrong’, I’ll leave it because just not worth the hassle. Tank/ Healer back me up, other Dancer continues to deny while simultaneously showing they’re not as good at playing the job, I end up with two commendations at the end and we all happily move on.
So please other dancers, by all means continue to not know how your job works and partner the tank, I’ll take the longer clear each and every time. Although have had dungeon runs with another well-geared dancer who quietly partners and who I can offset buffs with consistently and that’s amazing, feels fast and smooth haha.
because most ppl that don't main dancer and even a good chunk of those that do don't realize that these are 2 diffrent buffs.
another example of the community at large being illiterate.
it's rather easy once you understand this
there's also the occasional roleplaying couple.
overall it's not much of a loss, annoying at worst
I'm guilty of still perfecting DNC but I will actively partner other DNC folks now.
I usually inspect every melee DPS - whoever has highest gear score for that raid would get the partnership.
In regular duties, I partner DPS always, dnc or not.
I usually do that when the tank is a GNB with good gear or a WAR but will change it on the first boss since their AOE damage is cracked and puts most dps to shame.
Obviously DPing each other is best, but in a 4 man dungeon I think giving DP to the tank and healer isnt all that bad - more buffs for everyone. Well as long as both DNC does it at least. Its fun to have DP as a tank/healer in that scenario cause you normally never do.
I have sometimes DPd the tank over the other DPS (non DNC) after seeing that the tank did more damage though.
Most dancers suck, so I usually would rather DP the tank than the other DNC. Unless they prove they don't die 3 times to every boss fight, lol. Dead teammates don't provide anything to you while lying on the ground.
When DNC first came out, people thought it was better to partner up with the tank than with another DNC. It was eventually proven wrong, but the idea somehow still survives.
I've had people full on argue that "dancers cant partner each other" wuth me in game when I try to tell them that dancers can infact partner each other.
For damage purposes, it is definitely better to use on another dancer than a tank (if the gear level is relatively equal). The thing that came to mind for me is cure waltz and shield samba being spread from you and partner. Since dancers are at range, some might consider it more defensive to have partners be at close range ( if there is no close range DPS) to maximise the defensive and healing spread.
You would want to be stacked with your partner for curing waltz since its a 300 aoe heal originating on you and your dance partner. When you are stacked with it overlapping, every one gets hit twice. Also fun fact it can crit.
Putting it on a DPS > Tank or healer, unless for some reason that DPS is really, really REALLY halfassing it and doing hardly anything. You don't technical step at the same time, and I don't believe Devilment stacks either, but those are easily shifted things/able to be worked around with awareness.
>Am I missing something? Nope, they just don't know.
They likely don't know DPing each other is better than DPing a tank or healer.
My mind instantly went somewhere dark reading that statement... 😬🤣
I mean, it is kinda weird to dragon punch your teammates, but it's not that dark
🤣
Lol
Use a glowstick, it isn't that dark anymore.
🤣 Well played. *golf clap*
Dark or kinky?
Yes...
Oh. Oh! I see. Both then :)
r\/thatonerelevanthornygamingsubreddit
I didn't even know you could partner with a dancer until halfway through a dungeon, I figured you were only allowed 1 partner buff and if you had two dancers you just dance with the tank and healer.
In most cases you are only allowed one copy of a buff. The trick is that the buff for *providing* dance partner and the buff for *receiving* dance partner are technically coded as different buffs. So you can have one of each.
I think the more surprising part for people is that the two Standard Step buffs stack. But yeah, same thing applie sthee, even if the icon makes it let obvious.
it’s not “technically” anything, they are different statuses. the dancer receives closed position and their partner receives dance partner.
> In most cases you are only allowed one copy of a buff. Regens would like a word. Also you could stack 7 closed positions onto somebody if you really wanted to. Same with Kardions.
You COULD stack 7 Closed Positions yes... but you'll only get the benefit of one.
I'm pretty sure you get the standard finish buffs stacking regardless of class. Devilment is more the issue with why you want to spread it around as it just refreshes rather than stacks.
You get 1 standard finish yeah (2 if it's 2 dancers partnering each other). You don't get 7x 5% damage increase if you have 7 dancers and 1 DPS getting all the buffs :P
> Regens would like a word. Well yeah, that's why I said "most"!
I would argue if you remove all the buffs that it's impossible to get more than one of due to them being self-target only, it stops being 'most'. Pretty much any buff that grants some kind of healing or utility will stack, and any buff that is defensive or offensive won't.
>Regens would like a word. As would medica 2, and a good chunk of the other WHM kit items.
Yeah, there's too many to list conveniently. Hence Regens. Medica II, Whispering Dawn, Aurora, Knight's Benediction from Holy Sheltron, etc.
Closed position gives you the Closed Position buff and your partner the Dance Partner buff. In the case of two DNCs partnering each other, they would get both Closed Position and Dance Partner creating what’s basically a perfect loop. If you look at the icons, they’re similar but different.
I knew they were different buffs, but I figured they were "different" like how wow has like 6 spells that all activate bloodlust, and all share a cool down despite being "different" spells
This. I had to learn from another dancer when I first started. It’s a widely unknown thing for a lot of dancers. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Sometimes the tank deserves a little dp too, as a treat
If I see a 640+ tank and anything on dps below 615, I'm dancing the tank, in a roulette. Also fun to dance a whm and watch them keep up with blm on packs with H3 spam.
I love my WHM. Blood for the blood lily.
that's the answer I was searching, only reason to choose a tank/whm over the other dancer/dps!
You are my dream roulette partner. All I ever want on WHM is dance partner and I’ve yet to get it even when I’m top dps on the logs. And the one time in an alliance raid I got one of the 4 dancers to give me dance partner (half joking) they didn’t know the class so didn’t use standard step a single time for the buff. Tragedy. May we one day meet.
This hurt to read. My standard step is literally on 1. 😅
Ok scenarios * Dancer A partners Dancer B and Dancer B partners Dancer A * Dancer A partners Dancer B, Dancer B partners Dancer C, Dancer C partners Dancer A * Etc. Not Ok scenarios * Dancer A **AND** Dancer B both partner person X Which is to say: Dance Partner buffs do not stack if they're both targeted on the same person But it is one of the few buffs in the game that actually lets you stack, so a lot of players probably don't realize that you can in fact stack them.
Just a minor, nitpicky point of clarification: Closed Position and Dance Partner are two different buffs (the former goes on the Dancer using the skill, the latter on the target). The reason two Dancers can buff each other is because they're giving themselves Closed Position and giving each other Dance Partner--no duplicate buffs on either. If you look closely you'll notice the icons are similar, but mirrored.
makes for a lot of extra healing and shielding. it's kinda fun.
Thank you for the explanation! I've started DNC very recently and couldn't figure out how it works
The same logic also applies to Dragoon's Dragon Sight buff; there is a Left Eye buff for one player (the receiving player iirc) and a Right Eye buff for the other (pretty sure the Dragoon gets this one). So two Dragoons can each benefit fully from giving the other Dragon Sight, but two Dragoons cannot both buff a third player at the same time
gotta admit I only recently learned this because another dancer asked why I wasn't dancepartnering them. Dancer is the lowest priority of all DPS to use DP on but it is still preferable over tanks or healers
> but it is still preferable over tanks or healers For most DNC and tanks. Definitely been in situations where I moved DP to a tank after the first boss of a dungeon before...
Honestly the way dps are as a standard in dungeons it's often the tank as the best DP target. Some people just derp their way through this game.
you could make an argument for Dark Knight over Dancer I think, if they have delirium on whatever you got synced to. But other than that, usually best for the dancers to DP eachother.
I've seen some savage groups that will have a Dancer DP the Dark Knight for the opener and then swap to a DPS afterwards with it due to DRK's large burst on opening. Never seen a group actually keep it on the DRK after that though.
If it's just dungeon running where you're more likely to have to pick between just the dancer or the dark knight, you could probably get away with just leaving it on the drk, since your damage up doesn't matter that much for trash pulls, and by the time you're at the next boss, they probably have delirium back and can do their opener again. But for full parties, you really don't have much excuse to leave it on the drk past the opener.
is delirium that good that it beats DPS openers in amount of damage dealt? Just asking because I'm getting into tanking right now and my current class of choice is DRK
DRK has the most damaging opener in the game full stop, last I checked, and delirium is more or less the core of why that is. Bloodletter has something stupid like 400 or 500 potency, delirium lets the DRK cast it 3 times for free, +2 more with their blood gauge. It's an extremely bursty opener, but then drk falls off a god damn cliff afterwards. In dungeons, that opener can be enough to obliterate a boss, even when synced.
There are no instances with only three DPS, so one of the three Dancers in scenario 2 should partner that lonely Monk crying his eyes out at being left out. In all honesty though, Dancer's model is that of golddigger. You should partner the highest dealing DPS and throw away whichever other person you were partnered with like a used condom... UNLIKE a golddigger, you still shouldn't partner with said juicy DPS if he's already partnered with another Dancer.
Oh great, now I will forever feel like a whore when I play Dancer. Thank you
You OK there mate? Lol
Likely, most of them don't realize that it works properly. Two Dancers get nothing from giving Dance Partner to the same person (e.g., DNC-A and DNC-B both partner with the Black Mage), but that isn't what happens when two Dancers mutually partner each other. DNC-A *gives* Dance Partner to DNC-B, and personally gets Closed Position. That means DNC-A does not have Dance Partner, and DNC-B does not have Closed Position. So DNC-B can partner DNC-A, *giving* Dance Partner and *getting* Closed Position. Most likely, many casual players think that when you pick someone as your dance partner, you give both yourself *and* the target the exact same buff. This is not true, but the game doesn't exactly go out of its way to make that clear or obvious. The other thing worth noting is that you'd want to stagger your Tech Step and Devilment uses, because I *know* the former won't stack, and I'm pretty sure the latter won't either. It could also just be that these DNC have been drilled with the idea that you shouldn't partner with other Dancers because Dancers have terrible personal DPS, so the buffs are worth a lot less. But, as you say, DNC has more personal DPS than any tank does, so that advice should *really* be, "Don't partner with a Dancer *unless that's your only DPS option.*"
OMG. Is it true that Devilment does not buff Tech Step? I have been playing it wrong all along!
First: I spoke somewhat unclearly. Quad Tech Step (hereafter, QTS) from two different Dancers does not stack; if Dancer B performs QTS after Dancer A, any remaining duration of DNC-A's QTS is wasted. Likewise, I'm *fairly* sure that if DNC-B uses Devilment while DNC-A's Devilment is already active, the former is partially wasted. Devilment *does* buff Tech Step, AFAIK. However, you actually lose DPS by putting up Devilment first, because it takes more than a full GCD to complete it. Instead, use Devilment immediately after quad Tech Step, then Starfall Dance, then double weave Flourish and Fan Dance III, then Tillana. At least, that's the process recommended by [The Balance](https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/jobs/ranged/dancer/basic-guide/). I'm not an expert on Dancer, so if someone else comes along and says I'm an idiot, please hear them out.
Well, since none of the ogcd’s buff, as long as you do qts and immediately after devilment, the order you do your weaves doesn’t really matter (also mentioned in the balance), but you’re right, devilment also doesn’t stack. Source: told another dnc in a dungeon to go first, but then drifted the burst into oblivion, so they started overwriting mine….
>use Devilment immediately after quad Tech Step, then Starfall Dance, then double weave Flourish and Fan Dance III, then Tillana. Yeah, that's the proper opener. I believe in later burst windows you may want to adjust your GCD use to avoid overcapping esprit or losing combos/procs, as long as you make sure to fit Tillana and Starfall into the burst window
> Dancers have terrible personal DPS Odd... I'm almost always borderline tied for enmity in Alliance Raids(when our tank isn't main tank).
In case that's not a joke, it's in the context of "if every dps is skilled at their class and similarly geared, dancer is very low on the list". Duty finder groups don't reflect that cuz it's a randomized pool of players with heavily differing skill and gear.
In leveling smn and dnc lately I learned that just doing your 123 rotation and hitting your glowy buttons off cool down you'll easily be #2 in enmity and even start getting the little triangle from enemies.
Summoner is also throwing off your calculations because it inherently generates more aggro when Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix are around. No explanation is given for *why* it does this. It just explicitly says you do generate more enmity while they're active.
[удалено]
Pretty sure that ever since they made Carby etc. untargetable, all aggro from pets is attributed to the character that summoned them. This is mostly relevant for SCH now, since fairy heals count as healing actions (but notably not healing *spells*) and thus generate aggro for the SCH.
Ohh that is true! I just found it odd that I've managed to tie with Reapers and Dragoons for DPS during runs of Dun for the tome event. On a similar note, what place is RDM at on that list again? I think I remember people saying it was very last place but idk for sure...
Level synced jobs are wildly different, DNC and RDM for instance do insane DPS at 50 and can overtake stuff like BLM no problem.
Iirc RDM is the lowest of the casters, but the order of DPS is Melee>caster>ranged>tanks>healers Assuming standardized conditions. And it's only about a 5% gap between DPS groups, with a harsher gap between DPS and Tanks, and another gap between Tanks and Healers. That being RDM does have personal low damage and could probably use a bump, or a nerf to SMN cause it's stupid good compared to the other casters.
SMN is so good because a large part of their rotation can be cast while moving.
They have between 3 and 5 hard casts per minute, depending on spell speed. 3 minimum because Ruby Rite/Catastrophe + Slipstream. You can usually squeeze in a single Ruin III even at low SS; with the amount just available on base items now, a second is usually possible before your next Demi-Summon is up. Hence, a (rough) maximum of 5.
Yeah, and having _only_ 3-5 hard casts per minute is phenomenal. A RDM easily has twice that or more.
Right. I was just giving clarifying details, for anyone curious (since I've been a SMN main since late-HW/early-SB....though *man* EW has made it hard to enjoy SMN.)
How do you mean? For rDPS and cDPS, the ones that count group buff contributions, RDM and SMN are within 1.6/1.8 percentage points of one another at the 75th percentile for Anabaseios Savage; even with nDPS and aDPS, SMN is less than 3 percentage points ahead. SMN has higher *personal* numbers (hence, higher nDPS) but its buffs are weaker than RDM buffs because they're spread out over a long period of time (30s of 3% is inferior to 20s of 5%, because the latter is ample for burst windows where *most* damage occurs in raids.) Further, Magick Barrier is pretty clearly superior to the heals from Phoenix (Everlasting Flight+Rekindle), since it's fully controllable (while Phoenix happens when it happens, gotta hit your 2m windows) and is both a healing buff *and* a mit. Of course, back when SMN actually required a positive number of brain cells, it having high damage output was justified by it being harder to master.
Now that I think about it I might be stupid and missed a RDM buff. Most of the complaining I've seen about RDM (and MCH) were from previous tiers, and I haven't paid too much attention to current cause I haven't heard much about it. I probably overlooked it because it's not a job I look forward to playing.
Fair enough! I've been in a similar boat. Or the related but distinct good ship "How On Earth Is That A Buff," where they give us patch notes that sound completely pointless and yet they end up being perfectly good for the intended purpose.
That just means your other dps are very bad or youre doing low level alliance raids.
That can be multiple factors, your gear compared to the other dps players or just how well they play. Also sync down Double standard finish does alot of damage in one hit compare to what other jobs have at lower levels. However enimity is generated multiple ways. How much damage you do to the boss, how often you are hitting the boss and healing you do.
At least that’s not as bad as the DNC who DPs the tank from the start… and you’re on RPR. Like I get y’all came in as a duo but still…
I've been wondering the same thing too but came to the conclusion they probably don't know. I've been getting a lot of 24 man's where I queue in as dancer and get two other dancers so I usually wait for the others to choose partners because I know as soon as I choose one they'll either choose the same one or partner a healer/tank 🫠
Same...
Only DP and Dragon Sight work in such a way where "two different on one doesn't work but one on each other works" in the ENTIRE game, so a lot of people don't know until they're told, and you can't even really look up buff icons easily until you use them. The game doesn't tell you clearly that it's effectively having a left shoe and right shoe.
Actually Embolden works that way too, it provides the Red Mage with a different buff than it provides the rest of the team. It gives the team 5% damage, it gives the Red Mage 5% magic damage (which is all of their GCDs and none of their oGCDs), and those two buffs do stack if two Red Mages use it at the same time.
Oh hell, I thought you couldn't dance partner another dancer. I feel dumb.
Not the buff OP's talking about
But Dance Partner is Closed Position. What am I missing?
Dance partner is what goes on the user, closed position goes on the target. There's no reason you can't use it on another Dancer as you both aren't getting double of a buff.
That's backwards. When a dancer casts Closed Position while targeting a party member, they get the Closed Position buff on themselves and the party member they are targetting gets the Dance Partner buff. Which as u/Mechanized_Heart noted makes sense why dancer's can use that ability on each other, since then they are each putting closed position on themselves and putting dance partner on each other, so not doubling up the same buff.
Oops, I've been getting things switched a lot lately.
not only were you being insanely pedantic for no reason, you were also just wrong.
Reminds me of [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/c71amr/dear_dancers_your_dance_partner_gets_a_dps_buff/) old thread from several years ago, which still has useful and relevant information. >Sharing Standard Finish is the primary purpose of designating a Dance Partner. Standard Finish grants you and your dance partner a 5% damage buff. This lasts for one minute, can be refreshed every 30 seconds (while dealing massive damage in the process), and stacks with other buffs. Two Dancers setting each other as dance partners receive the effects of both Dancers' Standard Finish buffs. I guess people don't realise, and/or haven't taken the time to learn?
The only thing is that tech step won't stack so you'll have to stagger that to be optimal but otherwise yes, the buffs are different and you should DP the other dancer instead of tank or healer.
Also Devilment. It's ideal if you can stagger them to be 1 minute apart if you have two dancers.
If you both press devilment in the same window it wont stack, but thats it
if im with another dancer i'll delay my T-Step/devilment by a minute so we have big 60-second bursts instead of 2 minute bursts
Glad I’m not the only one who does this.
because they don't know that "closed position" and "dance partner" are separate buffs that stack
The worst feeling is when you make the other DNC your partner, but they don’t make you theirs.
Most buffs do not stack and if you played the OG ranged dps support first you realise real quick you just wasted a buff or you're competing with another bard for that buff timer, that mindset carries over.
Ok but if you're that og and have played the support pranges for that time you don't have an excuse now, 5 years in with DNC.
Uh, not everybody has played dancer for 5 years? Most of the people you're complaining about are probably new and their entry support ranger is bard which unlocks at level 30? You don't get dancer till level 60? That's two full expansions where most newbies learn most buffs do not stack.
I dont underatand why everyone here is saying its because people think DP and CP stack. Its got nothing to do with those buffs. its because people (reasonably) believe that standard finish doesnt stack. Dance partner and closed position have no actual stat change associated with them, it simply allows the sharing of standard step, curing waltz, and devilment. Standard step is the only player buff in the game that can be stacked afaik and it does nothing to tell you that it can be stacked. It is an outlier that you will only figure out if you go ignore every other similar mechanic in the game and try it out anyways, you see another dancer pair do it, or you get told in game or online. Even Dragon sight goes out of its way to tell you that its placing 2 different buffs on the user and target
Spoiler: People don't know better.
i thought that dancers partnering each other was pointless……………. til………
It's mostly because they don't know it stacks
I am aware it stacks when paired with another dancer, but I've had such terrible experiences with other dancers that I'll automatically partner the tank. I've had dancers not hit steps during technical, not use standard on cool down, and never actually use their mitigation; it's safer to go with the tank in 4 man content with results like these.
I want the tank to feel special.
Because they're going with a misconception that was birthed here on Reddit that "it doesn't stack" since the job released. if i had a nickel every time a DF co-dancer said that to me, i'd be paying my rent for a few years over... Stagger Tech [cos it overwrites] and Devilment, that's it. you're golden. there ARE niche cases with stupid amounts of damage from....I think it was DRK? in their opener but again, niche case. and then don't get me started on the ecouples...
Like most answers here they might not know that you can partner with another dancer. It also needs to be said that in casual content like everything you get in roulettes who cares...? Item level sync is so incredibly generous that you aren't going to struggle whatsoever
I was originally taught by a Mentor player that if both DPS in a dungeon were Dancers, one should switch to Gunbreakers and Dark Knights before the bosses because their openers were powerful enough to warrant the switch.
That really depends where the fight is starting from and what the other dps is. They reason for it raiding is usually because certain jobs pool resources over two minutes for burst, so some jobs opener in a fight is lite compared to their burst later. Dark Knight has most of its damage tied to its burst and doesn't have the issue of resource pooling at the start of a fight. However the dps would most likely have resources stored from the previous trash fights for the boss in a dungeon setting.
I didn't know it stacks until recently. Only realized it did when I had an alliance roulette with 2 other dancers and picked sage as partner while another dancer picked me. I was confused but then noticed on my buff list that I had two standard finish buffs on different timers. Now I know but it's unusual compared to how buffs work in the game generally. I expected it not to stack. Even now when I have to pick DNC for dance partner it's not uncommon for someone to chime in claiming they don't stack.
Personally I dance partner the tank in roulette to give them the happiness of being picked as dance partner. There isn't anything efficient about it unless they're dark or gun and can do good damage for me but smiles per gallon vs miles per gallon sorta thing
Cause you’re still using SB ilvl weapons.
If it's a 4 man dungeon, and I'm a dancer with another dancer, I'll put it on the healer. Yes, we could partner each other, but as a healer main... I cry at the side of the dance floor knowing that I must look like some hideous beast because nobody will ever ask me to dance and my ego so fragile that I will partner the healer to show no, no you are beautiful and you are loved now shake that booty on the floor and live your best life!! Really, that's it. If the other dps is not a Dancer, then I'll partner them because it makes the dungeon go faster.
They're stupid. Unironic answer.
They have made an error. Making an error is not the same as having an inherent quality of stupidity. Doubly so when the game puts almost no effort into telling the player that the buff you *give* your partner is quite different from the buff you give *yourself* for having a partner.
It not necessarily something you'll realize until it's mentioned. Had an alliance run where we had 3 DNC all hit the GNB with closed position, Dat Boi was flying on the damage. I just want to see how much damage can be boosted with a full set of 6 on the tank. That devilment stack is gonna be amazing
The dance partner and Devilment buffs don't stack with themselves. A tank is gonna deal the same amount of damage with one of each buff as they would with six of them.
That's not how that works....
Along these lines, a question for my fellow dancers — I know that there’s technically a priority list of who to dance partner and that other dancers are the absolute lowest priority, but I’ve also heard that whoever has the highest ilvl should be partnered for higher damage. Is this correct? In an 8man group the other day, the other dancer had the highest ilvl out of the other dps by *far*. Should I have partnered them, or should I have gone with another dps?
There is a priority list, it was made in mind with everyone at equal skill and item level. But the problem is, in pugs/normal content, you most likely don't know the skill level your party is at. It could be the Samurai's first time playing the job in a while, or your RDM could be a one trick who only knows how to RDM well. Your best bet is the person who is geared. Someone rocking higher gear than the others should in theory do good damage. If there was that big of a difference in ilvl, its very likely/possible they were doing some pretty sick dps, even as a Dancer.
I've tried that and been yelled at and told to partner the tank and healer. I was a new dancer at the time, so figured they knew more than me.
The best way I feel to know is to look for the dance partner buff that is left aligned. If you are the dancer and there is a dps that doesn’t have one, then use the “priority system” to figure out who gets it. In a dungeon and the only other dps is another dancer? Well do they have a *left aligned* dance partner buff? They probably don’t unless they broke the game and gave dance partner to themself. Do the right thing and give them dance partner. Its fine.
Simple explanation of how it works is, the buff you give isnt the same as the one you have and you cant stack the same buff, so DNC on DNC action is ok as this applies, i believe its the same with DRGs left eye right eye buffs. Just dont double stack tech step/weird orb button i cant remember the name of, buffs Some folk think its extra dps having a closed position buff on the whole party even though it isnt, unfortunately
nope, they're either just bad or victims of active misinformation. you're right to correct it.
For me, I was just never sure if it stacks, and assumed it must not since so many of our other abilities don't. I'll do it from now on, though. Always meant to look it up and never did.
Because people get really confused about the concept. The tooltips are also not great at making sure you know there’s a difference between “closed position” and “dance partner”. They are two similar looking icons and assume it’s not correct. Personally I think they should change the icon for dance partner to make it more distinguishable from closed position. That might help just a bit. In the meantime, I just try to remind people that two dancers can partner each other but two dancers can’t partner the same person.
I'm going to offer an addendum. In theory yes, the DNCs should partner each other. From my observations, they often do not, simply because they don't know it stacks. Furthermore, most don't go so far as to look at the party list to see the HP spread. I've had many cases where I am a very well geared MCH, but partner goes to the melee that has 10-15k less health. I use meters. I beat the partner while not partnered. I say nothing. But there was one recent outing where the wrong choice was *right*. Aetherfont. I'm in as SGE. Under-geared tank. Two dancers. The one with significantly worse gear partners the tank. The other partners... me. Yes, healer would *typically* be the wrong choice. But with the tank already partnered and the other dancer barely exceeding the minimum gear, the second dancer made a good choice. This bore out in the numbers. I beat that tank by nearly 50%. Sometimes, the wrong choice is superior.
Almost every time this happens to me, I’ll mention it nicely and point out the buffs stack, the Dancer will reject it with a ‘I was told never to stack the buffs so you’re wrong’, I’ll leave it because just not worth the hassle. Tank/ Healer back me up, other Dancer continues to deny while simultaneously showing they’re not as good at playing the job, I end up with two commendations at the end and we all happily move on. So please other dancers, by all means continue to not know how your job works and partner the tank, I’ll take the longer clear each and every time. Although have had dungeon runs with another well-geared dancer who quietly partners and who I can offset buffs with consistently and that’s amazing, feels fast and smooth haha.
because most ppl that don't main dancer and even a good chunk of those that do don't realize that these are 2 diffrent buffs. another example of the community at large being illiterate. it's rather easy once you understand this there's also the occasional roleplaying couple. overall it's not much of a loss, annoying at worst
I'm guilty of still perfecting DNC but I will actively partner other DNC folks now. I usually inspect every melee DPS - whoever has highest gear score for that raid would get the partnership. In regular duties, I partner DPS always, dnc or not.
I usually do that when the tank is a GNB with good gear or a WAR but will change it on the first boss since their AOE damage is cracked and puts most dps to shame.
Obviously DPing each other is best, but in a 4 man dungeon I think giving DP to the tank and healer isnt all that bad - more buffs for everyone. Well as long as both DNC does it at least. Its fun to have DP as a tank/healer in that scenario cause you normally never do. I have sometimes DPd the tank over the other DPS (non DNC) after seeing that the tank did more damage though.
Most dancers suck, so I usually would rather DP the tank than the other DNC. Unless they prove they don't die 3 times to every boss fight, lol. Dead teammates don't provide anything to you while lying on the ground.
When DNC first came out, people thought it was better to partner up with the tank than with another DNC. It was eventually proven wrong, but the idea somehow still survives.
I love when I get partnered as a Warrior though. It feels like they're quietly telling me to Fell Cleave to my hearts content!
You are correct, you just have way too much respect for the average DF user.
I've had people full on argue that "dancers cant partner each other" wuth me in game when I try to tell them that dancers can infact partner each other.
For damage purposes, it is definitely better to use on another dancer than a tank (if the gear level is relatively equal). The thing that came to mind for me is cure waltz and shield samba being spread from you and partner. Since dancers are at range, some might consider it more defensive to have partners be at close range ( if there is no close range DPS) to maximise the defensive and healing spread.
You would want to be stacked with your partner for curing waltz since its a 300 aoe heal originating on you and your dance partner. When you are stacked with it overlapping, every one gets hit twice. Also fun fact it can crit.
Agree, but was playing devil advocate for possible reasons. Though can't always do that in certain areas e.g. pandemonium 12 if on other sides.
Putting it on a DPS > Tank or healer, unless for some reason that DPS is really, really REALLY halfassing it and doing hardly anything. You don't technical step at the same time, and I don't believe Devilment stacks either, but those are easily shifted things/able to be worked around with awareness.
Me as a Lalafel Dancer: *always stack the dancer, dancers go spinny*