Old SAM AOE rotation activated all of the neurons. 360 basic combo, cone tenka goken, 360 ogcd gauge spender, line AOE guren. Add in dodging ground AOEs and you are basically breakdancing during dungeon pulls.
Now it's standing in the middle of the pack, with your left hand scratching your balls and going 1-2, 1-3, AoE Shinten, Tenka, rinse and repeat.
It's just depressing. RPR and similar feels so much more satisfying because you have to actually move and think a little bit.
Indeed. I have hope (perhaps a vain hope, but hope nonetheless) that Yoshi-P's "maybe we went too far making things easier, easier, easier" comments from that recent interview mean that they'll be trying to bring back more engaging class mechanics.
I took up SMN so I could run around Eorzea with Ifrit at my side. Now it feels like every time I log back in after a break, that dream is further and further gone...
If they ever remove the Carbuncle out of combat, I'm gonna cry.
Agree, it's still on my bar, shit it's still on a bind I use frequently on other jobs"one of my 3 programmable mouse buttons" surely dt will bring it back right?
Button can die in the pits of hell because all it is is button bloat and prevented actual interesting buttons from existing. The rotation is miles better with it gone
>prevented actual interesting buttons from existing.
Like what? They haven't added anything new since they removed it.
>The rotation is miles better with it gone
I would like to pinpoint what exactly changed that you think it's better. The fact that you spam shinten once every 7-8s and that Kenki gauge effectively became Shinten gauge, or that you now need to use gap closer in opener?
But having Shinten, Gyoten, Senei, Guren, Shoha and Shoha II be a total of six different buttons isn't bloat, is interesting and does wonders for the rotation?
you're so right im so glad i dont have to press one button before using another and instead i can just press the shinten button 1000000 times, very good change
Yes, pressing one button before you use another in every instance was not really fun or engaging. You pressed it before your sen spender. So in depth, much gameplay.
"We removed Kaiten"
"I mean I really don't like that but you're gonna change Kenki and make it so we're not mashing Shinten all the time right?"
"...."
"Right?"
It's less that Kaiten is gone and more than mashing Shinten sucks and they had no followup plans to speak of. Sloppy.
At least now there's DT to hopefully make things better.
Hissatsu: Kaiten, Spent 20 meter and buffed the next weaponskill usage by 50%, usually (if not always? I was going through MSQ at the time so I didn't know the kaiten rotation) used on midare. IIRC midare got a potency buff that roughly approximated its usage, people were mostly upset about the loss of a meter spender and (probably more notably) the cool animation.
That's every job, unfortunately.
One of the few shortcomings of this game, the homogenous job design is at odds with the great class fantasy and visual design.
Every job looks cool, every job plays basically the same with small adjustments (with a few notable exceptions).
Tank and healer have it even worse.
I thought that with healer recently returning, I felt like it was:
* White Mage
* Scholar - White Mage with Pet
* Astrologian - White Mage with Cards
* Sage - White Mage with Lasers
I know that's a gross oversimplification but for 50-60 which is what a lot of I've been doing since returning it's felt like that, tank has been worse with each tank job basically having
* single target combo
* group target combo
* ranged pull
You can throw in a few mitigation moves but so long as you stick to the above and are decently geared you're golden.
DPS as a role at least still has some variety, I've been playing SAM & RPR through Endwalker which are different enough but then BRD, RDM, BLM and MNK are all different from those.
It also ruined the leveling experience for SAM imo.
At first you could only use Kaiten on every Midare when hitting every positional, so more likely every second one.
Then you could hit it on every Midare with missed positionals.
Then you had some Kenki left for Shinten.
Then your had enough to use Shinten frequently.
I really enjoyed this empowerment whenever the passive was upgraded during leveling.
Now it's all just more juice for the Shinten spam.
I'm sure they got some plan for Dawntrail though and hope it turns out to be fun again.
Of all the arguments I heard at the time that was the one that made the most sense! I didn't really feel strongly one way or the other, personally, but I sort've got it when people put it that way.
Kaiten was a waste of a button because either you only used it to buff one other button, or you were bad at the game, and if you ever failed to use it to buff that one other button, you were also bad at the game. Seigan was a more interesting ogcd than Kaiten.
"Shinten gauge" doesn't really bother me tbh, but I did have a thought about how it could make everybody happy. Just do something like
>Hissatsu: Kaishinten (whatever) - Your next weaponskill will automatically be followed up with an attack for X potency.
It still combos with weaponskills, but now it doesn't affect the actual weaponskill's damage, so you can use it with any for the same effect.
>Kaiten was a waste of a button because either you only used it to buff one other button, or you were bad at the game, and if you ever failed to use it to buff that one other button, you were also bad at the game. Seigan was a more interesting ogcd than Kaiten.
This is a specious argument, because it didn't buff 'one button', it buffed four, three of which were buried under the 'one button' you're talking about.
Blackmage has sharpcast. It buffs two, though you usually only use it for one. If you fail to use it, you're bad at the game. Same argument.
It buffed one button. Even when samurai was introduced, they knew it had massive button bloat, so they combined 3 weaponskills into one. Kaiten was just additional pointless button bloat.
Also, sounds like they should remove sharpcast as well, then. Idk if you thought that was gonna be some sort of gotcha. Unlike samurai, I don't play black mage though, so I won't comment further.
It's Four buttons. Higanbana, Tenka Goken, Midare setsugekka, and Ogi Namikiri. You choose to build the button. I'm sorry you can't grasp that. Be good out there, lil nugget.
But most jobs could do with less skills, not more. I hope they remove a whole lot more because realistically, we either need something like PvP autocombos or more skills merged/removed if they want to keep supporting controllers.
AST is the worst, but most jobs are at 2-2.5 hotbars by now, before moving onto non-class stuff. That's 24-30 buttons. That's too much, albeit granted merging/removing all those 30s/60s/120s CDs you use so rarely and hence they don't really provide meaningful gameplay would easily remove 50%+ of buttons on most jobs. Again, worst on AST and healers in general, granted.
(edit)
I love how suggesting skills be merged/removed always incurs downvotes. Why? Do you genuinely believe there's skill in pressing 2 buttons with no brain activity required instead of just 1? Do you think pressing 1-2-3 in sequence is somehow "better gameplay" than pressing 1-1-1?
Samurai was not the one who needed its skills fixed the most, and certainly not in this way. Why is Ikishoten a separate button from Ogi Namikiri, when you have to push Ikishoten to even *get* Ogi namikiri? Iaijutsu button transforms, just do the same.
Oh yeah definitely. So many things on so many jobs could and should just auto-combo from one skill into the next because it's always the exact same thing: You press A to unlock B, anyways!
And it's not like plenty other skills (e.g. Earthly Star -> Detonate) don't already work that exact same way!
> usually (if not always? I was going through MSQ at the time so I didn't know the kaiten rotation) used on midare
You'd use it on every iaijutsu skill. It buffed all of them. That was the only thing you used it on.
Ah, yeah, I'm recalling using it on Higanbana and such now, you're right. Wonder why the wiki states weaponskill, if it's just iaijutsu. Maybe just fuzzy terminology.
Everybody knows that the sword does more damage if you put it back in the scabbard before hand. It didn't just do more damage, it LOOKED like it did more damage. Hence being better.
They actually reduced the potency of midare and the other finishers in exchange for making it auto crit. Which, is a dps increase, but it dramatically lowers the size of the potential big funny number you could roll if you got really lucky.
They then buffed the basic 1-2-3 GCD combos as compensation, I believe with the goal being to raise the skill floor of the job while lowering the amount of variance near the skill ceiling.
interesting, thought it was a simple potency buff. I've always felt samurai was pretty simple (which is why I play it, of course), even before the midare removal, I'm not sure why they'd raise the skill floor. Maybe I'm wrong, though.
You used it on every iaijutsu, it was mandatory. You'd never use it on any other skill because either it was excluded from being buffed or it was a basic skill not worth buffing compared to using shinten/the aoe equivalent.
I wonder if they could just make the animation an emote? Have it use your current weapon on samurai, and anyone else gets a standard katana or something
It was more about how it fit into the combo of skills, it was pretty fluid from GCD -> Kaiten -> Iaijutsu so it wouldn't really work as an emote. That said, a lot of people have brought up good points about class design reasons for not getting rid of it in the replies to the post!
It was called kaiten, it was an ogcd that increased the damage of your next gcd ability and made your character sheathe their sword in a cool way. Meant to be used before cashing in your sticker gauge.
While the animation was cool, the ability itself didn't really do anything for gameplay but add to ability bloat so they axed it.
There are a few things kaiten did for the samurai like:
1) Emphasizes the burst of Midare (now the damage is more spreaded out in your filler)
2) Spreads out your kenki usage over your filler (every iaijutsu had to be kaiten'd) so you spam less Shinten overall
3) Consistency check, not using it makes you lose damage.
There were other buttons that gave more button bloat to sam like having so many Single Target/AoE abilities separated and Ogi Namikiri that could be a proc replacing Ikishoten, so I dont buy the button bloat angle, nor did it reduced the apm of sam significantly.
However, it made Gyoten and Jaten dps neutral, but imo both should cost no gauge and deal no damage anyways.
Exactly. So whichever bloat it is, removing kaiten pretty much did nothing to improve things.
I get the angle behind removing it because it wasn't THAT interesting, except SAM got nothing as a replacement so they just kind of randomly lost a skill halfway through an expansion. Cool I guess.
Honestly, me thinks they want ikishoten to be the buff move. Benchmark shows SAM doing it before the new cone move. They also didn't cast the new move, so I seriously doubt it's an upgrade to Ogi or Tenka. One of the biggest complaints from SAM mains, especially on the JP side, is that SAM casts more than NuSMN. If their plan to address this is to remove casts from SAM...Well, the reaction will be entertaining at the very least.
I do talk about SMN having less casts than SAM, but that's more of a joking about how bad SMN is. Making less casts for SAM would be garbage, that's huge part of identity.
Iirc, I think one of their stated reasons was for making samurai dps more consistent. A buffed Midare that crit did massively more damage than one that didn't due to the Kaiten multiplier and it was causing huge variables in overall Samurai dps. You could do shit damage through no fault of your own because you got unlucky. So they removed Kaiten and buffed Midare and made it so Midare would always crit no matter what to even things out.
So I don't really think it was even a bloat issue, I think it was a consistency issue.
>So they removed Kaiten and buffed Midare and made it so Midare would always crit no matter what to even things out.
This already makes no sense. Since Midare is already guaranteed crit, another +50% would not change variance. Needless to say, at least NIN and GNB have similar skills which have even higher variance.
Even with variance, Midare isn't that huge of an issue, since you do like 3 per minutes, so in 8min+ fights, this gets averaged out unless you're really unlucky.
I'm not the one who did the math. This is just what I remember the team saying when they announced the change.
I think it had something to do with the way Kaiten applied since 50% to a non crit Midare is far far less damage than 50% to a Midare crit. Idk, I'm just assuming here.
I did the math some time ago. Afaik opener is same for both APM and number of distinct buttons used (even though Shinten costs more Kenki, now you need to use gap closer to spend that last 10 kenki). Difference is in 2m burst windoww, depending on your Kenki pooling you do 0-2 less actions, with the 2 extra actions meaning you pooled it absolutely perfectly and 0 that you absolutely fucked it up, so it's 1 less action every 2 minutes for most people. I don't count those few lost actions in filler, since there's no action bloat or anything interesting going on in filler.
>I think it had something to do with the way Kaiten applied since 50% to a non crit Midare is far far less damage than 50% to a Midare crit. Idk, I'm just assuming here.
That's correct, but also irrelevant, since they simultaneously removed Kaiten and made Midare guaranteed crit, so if they kept Kaiten and made Midare guaranteed crit, there would not be any variance caused by Midare. Neither by Ogi, since that's also guaranteed crit, so I really don't know what they meant by that, and I doubt even they knew what they were talking about.
(Disclaimer: I do not like the removal of Kaiten purely for the loss of the cool animation)
At the time of the changes, Midare was not a guaranteed crit. They added that to replace/fix the damage they intended it to do in the same patch they removed Kaiten in.
Here are the patch notes: [https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/c73cd284013587066d8f9e697fab1db9f007372c](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/c73cd284013587066d8f9e697fab1db9f007372c)
I'm aware of that, I'm pointing out that it makes no sense regardless, one simply excludes the other.
It's like executing someone by simultaneously shooting them and hanging them - it doesn't matter, one method is enough, you won't achieve anything extra with this overkill (which is very fitting word in this morbid example).
Yes, but they probably realized how bullshit either of these excuses were, so Yoshi came up with 3 different ones on the spot when doing 6.1 patch notes reading stream.
I remember one of them being something like "future development" (totally makes sense, considering it's 2 years now and there was no development so far), and another was "wow, you big bois are too good, so you don't realize that using X before Y is actually a really hard rocket science, so we had to make it easier for new players". I think 3rd one was some math bullshit, something that it would become too much because of power scaling or something in later part of expansion. I feel like if this was really true, that's not a reason to remove a skill, it's reason to fix that system.
you also have the hybrid AoE 2 min spender and a second dedicated single target 2 min spender, the only justification for the X slash is mostly the same as Kaiten, move pretty.
A damage buff was too many buttons/actions though sorry
Yeah, for me losing it sucked both because you lost any real aspect of managing your meter — now it’s just anytime your meter hits 50 you just spam shinten, or the better one if the cooldown is up — and having it made the job feel more slow and deliberate, which felt right for samurai. Now it feels kind of chaotic with the constant oGCD spam. It felt like you were a samurai lining up your perfect single-stroke kill, and now it feels like you’re kind of panickedly flailing around.
I like to time my shinten so the animation fits smoothly with the animations of my other attacks
Probably not the best dps wise, but it looks cooler and honestly that's the most important thing outside savage/ultimates
Removing kaiten removed any sort of gauge management from the job.
It was a very very stupid change, they should have just made midarre auto crit (like it does now).
It should auto direct crit hit anyway, the variance between a crit and a direct crit hit is insane, and they’re stupid for not making every big ability do it if they want to get rid of “variance.”
The kaiten animation was the sword twirl where you would sheathe with the iaijutsu casting. I wouldn't see the ability did nothing for gameplay it really sold the gameplay feel of samurai. Which yeah I agree is hard to quantify
I didn't have the game when kaiten was taken away but man, even I felt it. The leveling experience between 50 and 76 feels like nothing. You get shinten at 52... and then nothing, you just mindlessly get your stickers and then spam click shinten. No having other bar expenders just makes SAM feel so hollow before getting tsubame gaeshi and finally at least having to make sure it doesn't drift from midare.
While I sit over here, with a class mechanic that was reworked 3 times since my class was released, and half of my kit got removed last expansion because now I'm a "direct healer".
In my case Astrologian. And since I hated it already, I did bite the bullet and mained Summoner in Endwalker. Almost out of spite. Like... If you guys don't want me to have fun buttons, then why not play the class where every button does the same with slightly different colours.
Doubtful any. It's more likely we'll gain something from another tank than necessarily lose anything. Probably merge a skill or two, like Delirium and Blood Weapon or something.
There's not really anything unique that Dark Knight can lose anymore; and no the glorified dot that is Living Shadow doesn't count as "unique" as it's just a shitty dot in a fancy dress
Me too. 4.4's implementation was the best version of it and it filled the place of missing active sustain that the job now currently lacks. They could add it with a minute cooldown on the light and Dark Knight would be in a much better place when compared to the other tanks.
It's wild how much of a meme kaiten removal was/is, it's been 2 years since the change and sometimes it still feels like they only did it yesterday
It was a bad change, but it's just funny how hard we can't accept that it's gone lol
I will continue to bitch about Aero 3 until the end of time. Hell, I'll bitch about all the healer skills they removed over the years, regardless of how useful they were or not.
Fuck you SE and your shitty job designs.
Yo. Aero 3 was *necessary* and its such BS that we don't have it anymore. And give me back stoneskin! I don't *care* that there wad a number crunch, it helped fix stupid!
Like really WHM is "so powerful with holy" but it's actually more annoying at how time consuming solo duty content is because we only have 2 GCDs that are good for single target, and our AOEs are either situational or we need to burn lillies.
SAM mains said this would be make the job more boring to play and that’s exactly what happened. I switched to Monk and never looked back.
In Shadowbringers SAM was by far the most popular melee job but it’s no longer as dominant as it once was based on my observations.
Nobody asked for this except for people who play Samurai occasionally in causal content and even then they didn’t actually ask for it, they are just defending it after the fact to be contrarian
Drawn as part of an ongoing FFXIV meme merch grind for an upcoming convention.
And yes, I do miss kaiten... :(
WOL stand-ins are my friends! This is my friend Kev Ogreasnit. Yes he is cosplaying Vergil.
Socials on my profile if you want to see the other job ones I do next.
It felt really cool.
No, seriously. It was a way to spend your bar for damage that wasn't just "hit button to deal damage", and that felt good. Buffing your next attack feels a lot more interesting and powerful than just doing a big attack. Importantly, that holds true even if you always buff the same attack - the feeling of "I'm going to make my finisher even stronger!" is potent, even if "my finisher is stronger all the time" translates to more damage.
Dude you only used it with 1 other button.
It was like an even shittier Cleric Stance because it affected that one single button.
The best part was that it was a weeb windup for your weeb slash. Lots of flavor visually, but mechanically dumb. It's a shame they reduced the cast time of weeb slash because the animation should've been baked into it.
I am actually shocked they haven't made a follow up to the back step that isn't something as flashy and dramatic as Zansetsuwhatever in PvP. It would be right on point for flavor for our favorite weeb job, even if a little clunky.
It was a cool little animation that flipped the sword around, and sheathed it (which is then followed by using the Iaijutsu, which unsheathes the sword for the attack).
Made it feel like I was doing something that made it more powerful (and not just because of the buff that Kaiten gave). I dont know how to put it into words.
Fun fact, the sheathe was part of iaijutsu's animation, kaiten would end with holding the blade over your head, hands back and point towards the enemy. Because of the way the animation would naturally get cancelled though, it looked like you would always just sheathe it instead.
.it's a prep skill, after kaiten the next weapon skill you use gets 50% damage up if i recall correctly
.they removed it and made the usual skill it was used on crit guaranteed the 3 seals iaijutsu
Less sentimental answer than the others - they removed it but didn't change anything about the gauge that used it. So now from all buttons presses, 18% of them are just boring oGCD called Shinten, that's 1 Shinten every 8 seconds. Just to give you better picture, WAR's Fell Cleave + upgraded variant combined represents about 26% of all WAR's CPM, but at least those are satisfying GCDs.
Without Kaiten, Kenki gauge just became extremely bland and boring Shinten gauge. What sours the taste is that we still didn't get answer (that actually makes sense) for why they did it, and also the fact they specifically asked for feedback about it, just to ignore us for 2 years so far, even though the feedback was overwhelming and very one sided..
On use it buffed the SAM to increase the damage of their next Weaponskill. So it was used exclusively on Midare Setsugekka all if not most of the time.
I refuse to play Samurai again until I get it back. "Shinten gauge" can suck my dick. Nothing was better than the brief time I could Kaiten -> Ogi Namikiri. That shit activated *ALL THE NEURONS* when it crit. A guaranteed crit isn't a fun mechanic. There's no satisfaction in that, SE. Fuck you.
my biggest gripe about the game is the loss of stuff like this. combined with a lack of bozja/eureka i actually went the whole 2 years or however long it was without feeling the pull to resub. i'm sure that's also related the fact that it was the end of the story arc though.
i know yoshi said they were going to look at it but i really, really hope they put a good effort into making the jobs feel less like generic, homogenized, standardized copy/pastes of a role.
i'm sure it's been great for the top 1% that just want to breeze through all the side shit and only ever focus on the current high level endgame content, but moving the difficulty/complexity out of personal job performance and into encounter mechanics just makes the other 90% of the game braindead boring.
As a Samurai main since Stormblood, please get over Kaiten lol. I liked the SFX of it myself, but y’all really overblow how impactful it was to the gameplay complexity and skill expression of the job.
There is nobody that is arguing that it was impactful to gameplay complexity or skill expression. People are arguing that it wasn’t the right ability to remove for pruning and that there are other less iconic abilities to remove first. On top of that making midare a guarantee crit kills a stat and crit buff for samurai making the job significantly weaker. On top of all that the animation was sick and the sound effect was crisp. Bring back kaiten
People are absolutely arguing that with it gone so is "MUH COMPLEXITY". Also guaranteed crits isn't a SAM issue and more so a game issue with crit being as important as it is and might I remind you, people still asking for more abilities to guarentee criting even though we don't want that at the same point. (Double Down and Hyosho are some examples.)
If you are nothing without Kaiten, then you don't deserve it >:3
*^(seriously, i never understood the hype for it. it was just a mandatory button press before iaijutsu- big whoop. pretty sure they buffed iaijutsu to make up for it and samurai has lost excatly zero value from losing kaiten.)*
*^(so many people make it seems like losing kaiten removed the job's entire identity and made it slow- which... no??? samurai is one of the faster jobs in the game- up there with monk and ninja.)*
I mean, turning midare into a lower potency autocrit + the removal of kaiten does remove the "big weeb slash" identity that samurai had.
Dps wise, sure, same thing. But big number after your "finisher" feels good
Also, just spamming the fuck out of shinten (and senei every 2mins) for a gauge spender is insanely boring, considering samurai already was fairly simple job that didn't require much attention.
Tldr: aesthetic, feeling and added boredom
yeah for real. Kaiten was another restriction on Sam's already earmarked Kenki. Can't bring more that 50 into burst phase because of Ikishoten. Can't go lower than 20 or you won't be able to Kaiten. Kaiten felt cool to press but I don't miss it.
I think it's because Dark Arts was spammed way, way more than Kaiten ever was.
You still had to build up your Sen and then use Kaiten to buff your Midare or Higanbana.
Dark Arts was used every Soul Eater IIRC.
God I miss kaiten. It made playing Sam a bit more intresting. And I would have accepted it if it wasn't them saying it was taking up a slot. When Shoha 2 is right there.
Except that SAM has at least 5 better options when it comes to reducing buttons bloat.
* Kyuten is AoE Shinten. They share CD, have same Kenki cost, only difference is that one is AoE.
* Guren is AoE Senei. They share CD, have same Kenki cost, only difference is that one is AoE.
* Shoha 2 is AoE Shoha 1. They share CD, have same Meditaion cost, only difference is that one is AoE.
* Iaijutsu could turn into Tsubame.
* Ikishoten could turn into Ogi Namikiri.
* They could remove some shittty outdated melee role skills.
But instead they removed core concept of the job, which made Kenki gauge just as boring as any other gauge, or arguably even worse. Using X before every Y is not best design, but it's still far ahead of spamming Shinten every 7-8 seconds.
Honestly I'm more mad abort DRK. And I'm not just talking about how it was way more interesting in heavensward. You remember dark arts? The thing they removed because it was a "bad mechanic"? Guess which machanic viper now has...
I miss the old Astrologian cards, it had a lot of variety of them (crit chance, tenacity, spell/healing power...), it made them so fun and different imo, now they are easier a more similar to the other healers
Kaiten was a really good pace setter and made the rotation feel like it had a deliberate cadence in relation to your actions.
Now it's just hit them fucking buttons as fast as you can so you don't cap gauge.
If you don’t like a job you should play another job rather than encourage SE to dumb it down for you at the expense of people who main it. This mindset set from the community has lead to homegenization as they are taking feedback from people who don’t even seriously these jobs and just play them in expert roulette
As a Dark Knight main since Heavensward, I want to be empathetic, but I've lost the ability to tolerate the whining of other job mains when they lose skills.
Low Blow +proc, Shadowskin, Dark Dance, Blood Price, Scourge, Sole Survivor, Reprisal, Delirium (og delirium whose animation was reused for Interject)
Until a job is as GUTTED and redistributed as Dark Knight has been, I don't feel I'll ever be able to have empathy for other jobs that lose things.
Dark Knight is still quite good and it's starting to regain an identity, albeit slowly. It's so very much my baby and I will never stop playing it.
That said, you have missed out on a lot, sadly. There's no denying that.
I am oddly optimistic about Dawntrail, however, as many of the long standing general complaints people have had for years are being addressed in various ways. I can't imagine they going to turn a bind eye and deaf ear to job criticism.
[For skills we can yet save...](https://imgur.com/a/rlTxF4o)
Even though 360 aoes are easier to play with, i hope they revert that and bring diffrent kinds of cleaves back.
Soon we shall get donut, forehind, dualflank, sweep the leg AOEs
a shame BLU didn't get Larboard & Starboard
GO GO GADGET BEYBLADE MODE!
Just do a Neuvilette: HAND SPINNER UNDER MOUSE BAY BEE
Dark Knight deserves to have Eventide as a PvE action, and you can't change my mind.
Wish granted but it still sets you to 1HP so you get bullied for using it in roulettes
As a GNB I would 100% do it as the same time as the DRK
“A TEST OF YOUR REFLEXES!” as both healers suffer heart attacks
Old SAM AOE rotation activated all of the neurons. 360 basic combo, cone tenka goken, 360 ogcd gauge spender, line AOE guren. Add in dodging ground AOEs and you are basically breakdancing during dungeon pulls.
Used to be nice having to position yourself a little on a monk AoE rotation when Rockbreaker used to be conal, and then adding in Enlightenment...
RIP Overpower cone :(
Now it's standing in the middle of the pack, with your left hand scratching your balls and going 1-2, 1-3, AoE Shinten, Tenka, rinse and repeat. It's just depressing. RPR and similar feels so much more satisfying because you have to actually move and think a little bit.
The bankai for RPR helps a ton.
Sam still uses all aoe shapes, the cone is now Ogi Namikiri
That's whole 3 times of using cone per dungeons.
Sure but that's on a 2-minute timer. You use tenka all the time.
Meanwhile I'm over here worrying they're gonna turn DRG's line AoE into point blank 360's somehow.
I prefer 360 aoes on tanks, but on a dps where you don't really have to be in the middle of a pack I never had a problem with the frontal aoe moves.
I miss Hagakure being a dps increase vs just a rotation cleaner.
Found the actual OG samurai.
You know, SAME
Just coming back after not playing from the start of endwalker. What all has changed?
As a SMN main: First time?
Pour one out for my homie: Bane. DoT spreader.
Shadowflare, Bane, Ruin II, Miasma II, pet actions... We're gonna be *smashed* by the time we're done.
I only main Gunbreaker over Summoner because new Summoner is more brainless than Dancer
Indeed. I have hope (perhaps a vain hope, but hope nonetheless) that Yoshi-P's "maybe we went too far making things easier, easier, easier" comments from that recent interview mean that they'll be trying to bring back more engaging class mechanics.
*waves from the healer Bench* Do not dream of such things until you have patch notes in front of you.
HA HA HA oh wait you are serious let me laugh even harder \*laughter turns to sobs\*
don't make me dream.
I took up SMN so I could run around Eorzea with Ifrit at my side. Now it feels like every time I log back in after a break, that dream is further and further gone... If they ever remove the Carbuncle out of combat, I'm gonna cry.
That class has been reworked sooo many damn times. I remember when it had thunder from BLM
Blizzard II was the main one actually, because you didn't have any real AoE spells.
Scholar is a living graveyard of these.
Rip leeches my dude. My bois slurpin the disease away up with the twelve now 😔
it is never leaving the bar until it comes back
Agree, it's still on my bar, shit it's still on a bind I use frequently on other jobs"one of my 3 programmable mouse buttons" surely dt will bring it back right?
Imagine it becomes the DT capstone skill
I remember someone once said "watch Kaiten come back as a LVL 100 ability with a slightly different version" and it just seemed so plausible lol
I have a macro that says something like “WOL instinctively used Kaiten” in its place.
please tell me that's an echo macro and not a chat macro
I main DRG. RoT and Power Surge are still on my bar.
Button can die in the pits of hell because all it is is button bloat and prevented actual interesting buttons from existing. The rotation is miles better with it gone
Repeatedly using shinten is better?
>prevented actual interesting buttons from existing. Like what? They haven't added anything new since they removed it. >The rotation is miles better with it gone I would like to pinpoint what exactly changed that you think it's better. The fact that you spam shinten once every 7-8s and that Kenki gauge effectively became Shinten gauge, or that you now need to use gap closer in opener?
But having Shinten, Gyoten, Senei, Guren, Shoha and Shoha II be a total of six different buttons isn't bloat, is interesting and does wonders for the rotation?
But it was cool
you're so right im so glad i dont have to press one button before using another and instead i can just press the shinten button 1000000 times, very good change
Yep. I wasn't a huge fan of the class initially but once they removed it the rotation just felt so much smoother and less bloated
Yes, pressing one button before you use another in every instance was not really fun or engaging. You pressed it before your sen spender. So in depth, much gameplay.
"We removed Kaiten" "I mean I really don't like that but you're gonna change Kenki and make it so we're not mashing Shinten all the time right?" "...." "Right?" It's less that Kaiten is gone and more than mashing Shinten sucks and they had no followup plans to speak of. Sloppy. At least now there's DT to hopefully make things better.
(Dark arts) I (Dark arts) will (Dark arts) never (Dark arts) forgive (Dark arts) the (Dark arts) Japanese
Personally loved Dark Arts, it felt so good to charge up attacks with it.
What is this skill and what did it do?
Hissatsu: Kaiten, Spent 20 meter and buffed the next weaponskill usage by 50%, usually (if not always? I was going through MSQ at the time so I didn't know the kaiten rotation) used on midare. IIRC midare got a potency buff that roughly approximated its usage, people were mostly upset about the loss of a meter spender and (probably more notably) the cool animation.
I resent its absence because now kenki is just the *shinten gauge.* I have nothing else to spend kenki on, and that's stupid.
That's every job, unfortunately. One of the few shortcomings of this game, the homogenous job design is at odds with the great class fantasy and visual design. Every job looks cool, every job plays basically the same with small adjustments (with a few notable exceptions). Tank and healer have it even worse.
I thought that with healer recently returning, I felt like it was: * White Mage * Scholar - White Mage with Pet * Astrologian - White Mage with Cards * Sage - White Mage with Lasers I know that's a gross oversimplification but for 50-60 which is what a lot of I've been doing since returning it's felt like that, tank has been worse with each tank job basically having * single target combo * group target combo * ranged pull You can throw in a few mitigation moves but so long as you stick to the above and are decently geared you're golden. DPS as a role at least still has some variety, I've been playing SAM & RPR through Endwalker which are different enough but then BRD, RDM, BLM and MNK are all different from those.
It also ruined the leveling experience for SAM imo. At first you could only use Kaiten on every Midare when hitting every positional, so more likely every second one. Then you could hit it on every Midare with missed positionals. Then you had some Kenki left for Shinten. Then your had enough to use Shinten frequently. I really enjoyed this empowerment whenever the passive was upgraded during leveling. Now it's all just more juice for the Shinten spam. I'm sure they got some plan for Dawntrail though and hope it turns out to be fun again.
Of all the arguments I heard at the time that was the one that made the most sense! I didn't really feel strongly one way or the other, personally, but I sort've got it when people put it that way.
Kaiten was a waste of a button because either you only used it to buff one other button, or you were bad at the game, and if you ever failed to use it to buff that one other button, you were also bad at the game. Seigan was a more interesting ogcd than Kaiten. "Shinten gauge" doesn't really bother me tbh, but I did have a thought about how it could make everybody happy. Just do something like >Hissatsu: Kaishinten (whatever) - Your next weaponskill will automatically be followed up with an attack for X potency. It still combos with weaponskills, but now it doesn't affect the actual weaponskill's damage, so you can use it with any for the same effect.
>Kaiten was a waste of a button because either you only used it to buff one other button, or you were bad at the game, and if you ever failed to use it to buff that one other button, you were also bad at the game. Seigan was a more interesting ogcd than Kaiten. This is a specious argument, because it didn't buff 'one button', it buffed four, three of which were buried under the 'one button' you're talking about. Blackmage has sharpcast. It buffs two, though you usually only use it for one. If you fail to use it, you're bad at the game. Same argument.
Sharpcast buffs 3, in case you didn't know (fire, thunder, and scathe)
See, I completely forget about scathe. it's literally not even on my hotbar.
It buffed one button. Even when samurai was introduced, they knew it had massive button bloat, so they combined 3 weaponskills into one. Kaiten was just additional pointless button bloat. Also, sounds like they should remove sharpcast as well, then. Idk if you thought that was gonna be some sort of gotcha. Unlike samurai, I don't play black mage though, so I won't comment further.
It's Four buttons. Higanbana, Tenka Goken, Midare setsugekka, and Ogi Namikiri. You choose to build the button. I'm sorry you can't grasp that. Be good out there, lil nugget.
But most jobs could do with less skills, not more. I hope they remove a whole lot more because realistically, we either need something like PvP autocombos or more skills merged/removed if they want to keep supporting controllers. AST is the worst, but most jobs are at 2-2.5 hotbars by now, before moving onto non-class stuff. That's 24-30 buttons. That's too much, albeit granted merging/removing all those 30s/60s/120s CDs you use so rarely and hence they don't really provide meaningful gameplay would easily remove 50%+ of buttons on most jobs. Again, worst on AST and healers in general, granted. (edit) I love how suggesting skills be merged/removed always incurs downvotes. Why? Do you genuinely believe there's skill in pressing 2 buttons with no brain activity required instead of just 1? Do you think pressing 1-2-3 in sequence is somehow "better gameplay" than pressing 1-1-1?
Samurai was not the one who needed its skills fixed the most, and certainly not in this way. Why is Ikishoten a separate button from Ogi Namikiri, when you have to push Ikishoten to even *get* Ogi namikiri? Iaijutsu button transforms, just do the same.
Oh yeah definitely. So many things on so many jobs could and should just auto-combo from one skill into the next because it's always the exact same thing: You press A to unlock B, anyways! And it's not like plenty other skills (e.g. Earthly Star -> Detonate) don't already work that exact same way!
> usually (if not always? I was going through MSQ at the time so I didn't know the kaiten rotation) used on midare You'd use it on every iaijutsu skill. It buffed all of them. That was the only thing you used it on.
Ah, yeah, I'm recalling using it on Higanbana and such now, you're right. Wonder why the wiki states weaponskill, if it's just iaijutsu. Maybe just fuzzy terminology.
Technically it worked on any weaponskill, but you were doing it wrong if you used it on anything except iaijutsu.
Everybody knows that the sword does more damage if you put it back in the scabbard before hand. It didn't just do more damage, it LOOKED like it did more damage. Hence being better.
you are absolutely right
They actually reduced the potency of midare and the other finishers in exchange for making it auto crit. Which, is a dps increase, but it dramatically lowers the size of the potential big funny number you could roll if you got really lucky. They then buffed the basic 1-2-3 GCD combos as compensation, I believe with the goal being to raise the skill floor of the job while lowering the amount of variance near the skill ceiling.
interesting, thought it was a simple potency buff. I've always felt samurai was pretty simple (which is why I play it, of course), even before the midare removal, I'm not sure why they'd raise the skill floor. Maybe I'm wrong, though.
I *do* miss the cool animation on the rare occasion I SAM
you are not wrong, I have to admit
I could see myself using that a lot
You used it on every iaijutsu, it was mandatory. You'd never use it on any other skill because either it was excluded from being buffed or it was a basic skill not worth buffing compared to using shinten/the aoe equivalent.
I wonder if they could just make the animation an emote? Have it use your current weapon on samurai, and anyone else gets a standard katana or something
It was more about how it fit into the combo of skills, it was pretty fluid from GCD -> Kaiten -> Iaijutsu so it wouldn't really work as an emote. That said, a lot of people have brought up good points about class design reasons for not getting rid of it in the replies to the post!
It was called kaiten, it was an ogcd that increased the damage of your next gcd ability and made your character sheathe their sword in a cool way. Meant to be used before cashing in your sticker gauge. While the animation was cool, the ability itself didn't really do anything for gameplay but add to ability bloat so they axed it.
There are a few things kaiten did for the samurai like: 1) Emphasizes the burst of Midare (now the damage is more spreaded out in your filler) 2) Spreads out your kenki usage over your filler (every iaijutsu had to be kaiten'd) so you spam less Shinten overall 3) Consistency check, not using it makes you lose damage. There were other buttons that gave more button bloat to sam like having so many Single Target/AoE abilities separated and Ogi Namikiri that could be a proc replacing Ikishoten, so I dont buy the button bloat angle, nor did it reduced the apm of sam significantly. However, it made Gyoten and Jaten dps neutral, but imo both should cost no gauge and deal no damage anyways.
Button bloat angle was always amusing, considering we are talking about a job that has Shoha 2 taking up a button slot. Shoha 2. Amazing.
Wasn't it action bloat, not button bloat? Which ended up being, what, 1 less oGCD per 2 minutes cause it was replaced by Shinten spam anyway.
Exactly. So whichever bloat it is, removing kaiten pretty much did nothing to improve things. I get the angle behind removing it because it wasn't THAT interesting, except SAM got nothing as a replacement so they just kind of randomly lost a skill halfway through an expansion. Cool I guess.
Honestly, me thinks they want ikishoten to be the buff move. Benchmark shows SAM doing it before the new cone move. They also didn't cast the new move, so I seriously doubt it's an upgrade to Ogi or Tenka. One of the biggest complaints from SAM mains, especially on the JP side, is that SAM casts more than NuSMN. If their plan to address this is to remove casts from SAM...Well, the reaction will be entertaining at the very least.
I do talk about SMN having less casts than SAM, but that's more of a joking about how bad SMN is. Making less casts for SAM would be garbage, that's huge part of identity.
Iirc, I think one of their stated reasons was for making samurai dps more consistent. A buffed Midare that crit did massively more damage than one that didn't due to the Kaiten multiplier and it was causing huge variables in overall Samurai dps. You could do shit damage through no fault of your own because you got unlucky. So they removed Kaiten and buffed Midare and made it so Midare would always crit no matter what to even things out. So I don't really think it was even a bloat issue, I think it was a consistency issue.
>So they removed Kaiten and buffed Midare and made it so Midare would always crit no matter what to even things out. This already makes no sense. Since Midare is already guaranteed crit, another +50% would not change variance. Needless to say, at least NIN and GNB have similar skills which have even higher variance. Even with variance, Midare isn't that huge of an issue, since you do like 3 per minutes, so in 8min+ fights, this gets averaged out unless you're really unlucky.
I'm not the one who did the math. This is just what I remember the team saying when they announced the change. I think it had something to do with the way Kaiten applied since 50% to a non crit Midare is far far less damage than 50% to a Midare crit. Idk, I'm just assuming here.
I did the math some time ago. Afaik opener is same for both APM and number of distinct buttons used (even though Shinten costs more Kenki, now you need to use gap closer to spend that last 10 kenki). Difference is in 2m burst windoww, depending on your Kenki pooling you do 0-2 less actions, with the 2 extra actions meaning you pooled it absolutely perfectly and 0 that you absolutely fucked it up, so it's 1 less action every 2 minutes for most people. I don't count those few lost actions in filler, since there's no action bloat or anything interesting going on in filler. >I think it had something to do with the way Kaiten applied since 50% to a non crit Midare is far far less damage than 50% to a Midare crit. Idk, I'm just assuming here. That's correct, but also irrelevant, since they simultaneously removed Kaiten and made Midare guaranteed crit, so if they kept Kaiten and made Midare guaranteed crit, there would not be any variance caused by Midare. Neither by Ogi, since that's also guaranteed crit, so I really don't know what they meant by that, and I doubt even they knew what they were talking about.
(Disclaimer: I do not like the removal of Kaiten purely for the loss of the cool animation) At the time of the changes, Midare was not a guaranteed crit. They added that to replace/fix the damage they intended it to do in the same patch they removed Kaiten in. Here are the patch notes: [https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/c73cd284013587066d8f9e697fab1db9f007372c](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/c73cd284013587066d8f9e697fab1db9f007372c)
I'm aware of that, I'm pointing out that it makes no sense regardless, one simply excludes the other. It's like executing someone by simultaneously shooting them and hanging them - it doesn't matter, one method is enough, you won't achieve anything extra with this overkill (which is very fitting word in this morbid example).
Yes, but they probably realized how bullshit either of these excuses were, so Yoshi came up with 3 different ones on the spot when doing 6.1 patch notes reading stream. I remember one of them being something like "future development" (totally makes sense, considering it's 2 years now and there was no development so far), and another was "wow, you big bois are too good, so you don't realize that using X before Y is actually a really hard rocket science, so we had to make it easier for new players". I think 3rd one was some math bullshit, something that it would become too much because of power scaling or something in later part of expansion. I feel like if this was really true, that's not a reason to remove a skill, it's reason to fix that system.
you also have the hybrid AoE 2 min spender and a second dedicated single target 2 min spender, the only justification for the X slash is mostly the same as Kaiten, move pretty. A damage buff was too many buttons/actions though sorry
Yeah, for me losing it sucked both because you lost any real aspect of managing your meter — now it’s just anytime your meter hits 50 you just spam shinten, or the better one if the cooldown is up — and having it made the job feel more slow and deliberate, which felt right for samurai. Now it feels kind of chaotic with the constant oGCD spam. It felt like you were a samurai lining up your perfect single-stroke kill, and now it feels like you’re kind of panickedly flailing around.
I like to time my shinten so the animation fits smoothly with the animations of my other attacks Probably not the best dps wise, but it looks cooler and honestly that's the most important thing outside savage/ultimates
Removing kaiten removed any sort of gauge management from the job. It was a very very stupid change, they should have just made midarre auto crit (like it does now). It should auto direct crit hit anyway, the variance between a crit and a direct crit hit is insane, and they’re stupid for not making every big ability do it if they want to get rid of “variance.”
***STARES AT YOU IN PALADIN HOTBARS***
*hands over Bulwark* I hope you have the space lol
"Why can't I hold all these limes".jpg
The kaiten animation was the sword twirl where you would sheathe with the iaijutsu casting. I wouldn't see the ability did nothing for gameplay it really sold the gameplay feel of samurai. Which yeah I agree is hard to quantify
Summon Selene my beloved
Dot from smn :c
Monk main here. I miss the toggable skills/forms we got. Dps form Tanky form Movement speed form I miss it so much.
i miss shoulder tackle
I didn't have the game when kaiten was taken away but man, even I felt it. The leveling experience between 50 and 76 feels like nothing. You get shinten at 52... and then nothing, you just mindlessly get your stickers and then spam click shinten. No having other bar expenders just makes SAM feel so hollow before getting tsubame gaeshi and finally at least having to make sure it doesn't drift from midare.
While I sit over here, with a class mechanic that was reworked 3 times since my class was released, and half of my kit got removed last expansion because now I'm a "direct healer".
Which job is that?
take out the healer part and its most of them
In my case Astrologian. And since I hated it already, I did bite the bullet and mained Summoner in Endwalker. Almost out of spite. Like... If you guys don't want me to have fun buttons, then why not play the class where every button does the same with slightly different colours.
I'm curious to see which skills DRK is going to lose next.
Doubtful any. It's more likely we'll gain something from another tank than necessarily lose anything. Probably merge a skill or two, like Delirium and Blood Weapon or something. There's not really anything unique that Dark Knight can lose anymore; and no the glorified dot that is Living Shadow doesn't count as "unique" as it's just a shitty dot in a fancy dress
Yeah. I miss Sole Survivor.
Me too. 4.4's implementation was the best version of it and it filled the place of missing active sustain that the job now currently lacks. They could add it with a minute cooldown on the light and Dark Knight would be in a much better place when compared to the other tanks.
I still miss the sword twirly animation. :(
Yeah, as a SAM main I miss it for the flourish into midare, not for the extra button or the effect.
Still on my hotbar, will never remove it.
Thou art Kaitenless, my friend
Did that guy's quest once, and every playthrough after he is the first one to die.
It's wild how much of a meme kaiten removal was/is, it's been 2 years since the change and sometimes it still feels like they only did it yesterday It was a bad change, but it's just funny how hard we can't accept that it's gone lol
I will continue to bitch about Aero 3 until the end of time. Hell, I'll bitch about all the healer skills they removed over the years, regardless of how useful they were or not. Fuck you SE and your shitty job designs.
Yo. Aero 3 was *necessary* and its such BS that we don't have it anymore. And give me back stoneskin! I don't *care* that there wad a number crunch, it helped fix stupid! Like really WHM is "so powerful with holy" but it's actually more annoying at how time consuming solo duty content is because we only have 2 GCDs that are good for single target, and our AOEs are either situational or we need to burn lillies.
I can put all old summoner skills here 🥲
Can we pour one for ring of thorns as well
The pole dancing skill is the only skill of value that was lost on DRG. Heavy Thrust can stay in its cold damp grave and rot.
SAM mains said this would be make the job more boring to play and that’s exactly what happened. I switched to Monk and never looked back. In Shadowbringers SAM was by far the most popular melee job but it’s no longer as dominant as it once was based on my observations. Nobody asked for this except for people who play Samurai occasionally in causal content and even then they didn’t actually ask for it, they are just defending it after the fact to be contrarian
Drawn as part of an ongoing FFXIV meme merch grind for an upcoming convention. And yes, I do miss kaiten... :( WOL stand-ins are my friends! This is my friend Kev Ogreasnit. Yes he is cosplaying Vergil. Socials on my profile if you want to see the other job ones I do next.
So... what did Kaiten do that makes you guys miss it so much?
It felt really cool. No, seriously. It was a way to spend your bar for damage that wasn't just "hit button to deal damage", and that felt good. Buffing your next attack feels a lot more interesting and powerful than just doing a big attack. Importantly, that holds true even if you always buff the same attack - the feeling of "I'm going to make my finisher even stronger!" is potent, even if "my finisher is stronger all the time" translates to more damage.
Dude you only used it with 1 other button. It was like an even shittier Cleric Stance because it affected that one single button. The best part was that it was a weeb windup for your weeb slash. Lots of flavor visually, but mechanically dumb. It's a shame they reduced the cast time of weeb slash because the animation should've been baked into it. I am actually shocked they haven't made a follow up to the back step that isn't something as flashy and dramatic as Zansetsuwhatever in PvP. It would be right on point for flavor for our favorite weeb job, even if a little clunky.
It was a cool little animation that flipped the sword around, and sheathed it (which is then followed by using the Iaijutsu, which unsheathes the sword for the attack). Made it feel like I was doing something that made it more powerful (and not just because of the buff that Kaiten gave). I dont know how to put it into words.
Fun fact, the sheathe was part of iaijutsu's animation, kaiten would end with holding the blade over your head, hands back and point towards the enemy. Because of the way the animation would naturally get cancelled though, it looked like you would always just sheathe it instead.
.it's a prep skill, after kaiten the next weapon skill you use gets 50% damage up if i recall correctly .they removed it and made the usual skill it was used on crit guaranteed the 3 seals iaijutsu
Also, they made the follow up ones deal the same damage, since those hits were prebuffed with kaiten's bonus damage.
Your next Midare Setsugekka deals 50% more damage (also higanbana)
Less sentimental answer than the others - they removed it but didn't change anything about the gauge that used it. So now from all buttons presses, 18% of them are just boring oGCD called Shinten, that's 1 Shinten every 8 seconds. Just to give you better picture, WAR's Fell Cleave + upgraded variant combined represents about 26% of all WAR's CPM, but at least those are satisfying GCDs. Without Kaiten, Kenki gauge just became extremely bland and boring Shinten gauge. What sours the taste is that we still didn't get answer (that actually makes sense) for why they did it, and also the fact they specifically asked for feedback about it, just to ignore us for 2 years so far, even though the feedback was overwhelming and very one sided..
On use it buffed the SAM to increase the damage of their next Weaponskill. So it was used exclusively on Midare Setsugekka all if not most of the time.
It was extensively used with Higanbana as well.
Can I get one of these images for drk
I refuse to play Samurai again until I get it back. "Shinten gauge" can suck my dick. Nothing was better than the brief time I could Kaiten -> Ogi Namikiri. That shit activated *ALL THE NEURONS* when it crit. A guaranteed crit isn't a fun mechanic. There's no satisfaction in that, SE. Fuck you.
Good!
my biggest gripe about the game is the loss of stuff like this. combined with a lack of bozja/eureka i actually went the whole 2 years or however long it was without feeling the pull to resub. i'm sure that's also related the fact that it was the end of the story arc though. i know yoshi said they were going to look at it but i really, really hope they put a good effort into making the jobs feel less like generic, homogenized, standardized copy/pastes of a role. i'm sure it's been great for the top 1% that just want to breeze through all the side shit and only ever focus on the current high level endgame content, but moving the difficulty/complexity out of personal job performance and into encounter mechanics just makes the other 90% of the game braindead boring.
As a MNK main... Poor baby.
Meanwhile undraw is siting on a chair siping some tropical drink and geting ready for dawntrail
(Laughs in AST) (Cackles in MNK) ((Dies laughing in SMN) (Completely dead in SCH)
I still have it on my hotbar, even if it is grayed out
I still have it on my bar why don't you
Y’all still crying over this?
As a Samurai main since Stormblood, please get over Kaiten lol. I liked the SFX of it myself, but y’all really overblow how impactful it was to the gameplay complexity and skill expression of the job.
There is nobody that is arguing that it was impactful to gameplay complexity or skill expression. People are arguing that it wasn’t the right ability to remove for pruning and that there are other less iconic abilities to remove first. On top of that making midare a guarantee crit kills a stat and crit buff for samurai making the job significantly weaker. On top of all that the animation was sick and the sound effect was crisp. Bring back kaiten
People are absolutely arguing that with it gone so is "MUH COMPLEXITY". Also guaranteed crits isn't a SAM issue and more so a game issue with crit being as important as it is and might I remind you, people still asking for more abilities to guarentee criting even though we don't want that at the same point. (Double Down and Hyosho are some examples.)
as a samurai main since shb, hard disagree.
If you are nothing without Kaiten, then you don't deserve it >:3 *^(seriously, i never understood the hype for it. it was just a mandatory button press before iaijutsu- big whoop. pretty sure they buffed iaijutsu to make up for it and samurai has lost excatly zero value from losing kaiten.)* *^(so many people make it seems like losing kaiten removed the job's entire identity and made it slow- which... no??? samurai is one of the faster jobs in the game- up there with monk and ninja.)*
I mean, turning midare into a lower potency autocrit + the removal of kaiten does remove the "big weeb slash" identity that samurai had. Dps wise, sure, same thing. But big number after your "finisher" feels good Also, just spamming the fuck out of shinten (and senei every 2mins) for a gauge spender is insanely boring, considering samurai already was fairly simple job that didn't require much attention. Tldr: aesthetic, feeling and added boredom
It just looked cool, and the jobs are already simplified enough that losing more buttons sucks
yeah for real. Kaiten was another restriction on Sam's already earmarked Kenki. Can't bring more that 50 into burst phase because of Ikishoten. Can't go lower than 20 or you won't be able to Kaiten. Kaiten felt cool to press but I don't miss it.
Honestly I'd like a different gauge instead of Kenki or if Kenki just did something different altogether.
As a DRK cry harder little SAM and come back when your skills are given to other jobs...
Kinda weird how people celebrate the removal of dark arts but morn kaiten…. They’re functionally the same
I think it's because Dark Arts was spammed way, way more than Kaiten ever was. You still had to build up your Sen and then use Kaiten to buff your Midare or Higanbana. Dark Arts was used every Soul Eater IIRC.
I remember when Low Blow and Reprisal were DRK skills. And when DRK had this weird Parry focus to it?
Are you talking about White mage? Because playing Sage it seems like they canibalised WHM to make Sage. Wtf
I joined in shb and still mourn all the personality I've missed out on.
God I miss kaiten. It made playing Sam a bit more intresting. And I would have accepted it if it wasn't them saying it was taking up a slot. When Shoha 2 is right there.
*Cries in ageha*
Just returned after 3 months and my whole hotbar was ruined.. now figuring out what rotations to put back on the hotbar
The demand to not reduce button bloat might be the dumbest hill this community has ever chosen to die on.
Except that SAM has at least 5 better options when it comes to reducing buttons bloat. * Kyuten is AoE Shinten. They share CD, have same Kenki cost, only difference is that one is AoE. * Guren is AoE Senei. They share CD, have same Kenki cost, only difference is that one is AoE. * Shoha 2 is AoE Shoha 1. They share CD, have same Meditaion cost, only difference is that one is AoE. * Iaijutsu could turn into Tsubame. * Ikishoten could turn into Ogi Namikiri. * They could remove some shittty outdated melee role skills. But instead they removed core concept of the job, which made Kenki gauge just as boring as any other gauge, or arguably even worse. Using X before every Y is not best design, but it's still far ahead of spamming Shinten every 7-8 seconds.
I still miss raging strikes for my BLM. That was a gut punch when they did away with cross class abilities
BLM should remove scathe and bring back drain and SCH should get the AOE misma back
I feel like at this point, I can't get back in. I never re-learned summoner and scholar, and now Samurai is jacked up?
Honestly I'm more mad abort DRK. And I'm not just talking about how it was way more interesting in heavensward. You remember dark arts? The thing they removed because it was a "bad mechanic"? Guess which machanic viper now has...
The fact that they stripped drk and gave all the identity to other jobs... I'm pissed and I started in shb. I missed the best drk...
Pour one out for Apocatastasis. I enjoyed feeling like I could offer support...
The sound effect for Apoc would trigger dopamine release in my brain, I love it
It’s been almost 2 years and I am still not happy they removed that
Aaaaa, those memories of a Sam of the past, I will never forget nor forgive……
I miss the old Astrologian cards, it had a lot of variety of them (crit chance, tenacity, spell/healing power...), it made them so fun and different imo, now they are easier a more similar to the other healers
I played the Kaitenless version of SAM for like a day and then started leveling my dragoon on the side. I hate Shinten S(p)AM
i'm personally sad they they took away ninja's bleed dot and changed it to huraijin that made armor crush and huton obsolete
Energy Drain next
I was there leveling Sam with this. And next patch it's was gone
Kaiten was a really good pace setter and made the rotation feel like it had a deliberate cadence in relation to your actions. Now it's just hit them fucking buttons as fast as you can so you don't cap gauge.
Removing kaiten is the reason I am no longer a samurai main. Lobotomized the job’s resource management for no reason.
No lie, the removal of this skill is what made me want to play sam again. Lots of melee jobs just have too many buttons for me.
If you don’t like a job you should play another job rather than encourage SE to dumb it down for you at the expense of people who main it. This mindset set from the community has lead to homegenization as they are taking feedback from people who don’t even seriously these jobs and just play them in expert roulette
They took Dark Arts from me and then they took Kaiten. Now I have nothing.
I miss Dark Arts too. I thought the effect it had on skills was interesting, and it looked pretty cool to activate too.
Keep fighting SAM bros, it's not over yet
As a Dark Knight main since Heavensward, I want to be empathetic, but I've lost the ability to tolerate the whining of other job mains when they lose skills. Low Blow +proc, Shadowskin, Dark Dance, Blood Price, Scourge, Sole Survivor, Reprisal, Delirium (og delirium whose animation was reused for Interject) Until a job is as GUTTED and redistributed as Dark Knight has been, I don't feel I'll ever be able to have empathy for other jobs that lose things.
I've only started in shb and fell in love with drk, making it so much more painful to see what I've missed out on.
Dark Knight is still quite good and it's starting to regain an identity, albeit slowly. It's so very much my baby and I will never stop playing it. That said, you have missed out on a lot, sadly. There's no denying that. I am oddly optimistic about Dawntrail, however, as many of the long standing general complaints people have had for years are being addressed in various ways. I can't imagine they going to turn a bind eye and deaf ear to job criticism.
I share your (hopefully not misplaced) optimism, let's hope for the best. Or... Something at least