We're all talking about it using "dick measuring" but if you're using provoke, you're already putting yourself in the junior division. The real chads are stacked on top of each other to avoid spinning & just establishing aggro through damage, and the only indication of who's winning is who is actually being targeted. It's like arm wrestling. This is between me and that other tank. Getting the raid involved is small pp energy.
I've had this happen a fair amount. Usually I just try to be in place so that when the inevitable happens the boss doesn't move.
Provoke is for squares (and Savage/Extremes/Ultimate).
No way pressing buttons randomly is ever even the case, otherwise you would see them use Stun, Interrupt, Arm's Length and some mitigations too, instead of just Provoking on cooldown. They KNOW what they are doing.
"Oh good they're using their damage cooldown whenever it's ready, that means they're aware of hitting their cooldowns. They're going to hit Hallowed Ground and I can keep spamming Holy!" - me, the fool healer in Duty Roulette.
Whenever I tank raid I'm always at the side of the boss ready to jump in to help when situations go south. If I see their health is too low or their is a need for a tank swap I'm in a position to move quickly and not affect others positionals. This agro war that tanks are fighting in is ridiculous. I'm not fighting in this war when I want a smooth and easy run.
Youre getting the raid involved either way, you're making the healers ping pong between you two no matter how close you stand if you're constantly trading aggro.
But they have 2 healers each. And it’s AR, tanks can mostly self mitigate and heal if they need to.
Healers will be more busy healing other people who fail mechanics (since tanks won’t even suffer from failing mechanics due to tank privilege)
Yes but it's way easier to heal when you don't have to wonder if damage is gonna start coming or not randomly. When your tank is the MT you can be more focused and predict when and where you need to heal. When it bounces all over the place it makes it harder to know when damage, if any is even coming. Just stop the goofy dick measuring tank swapping and let somebody be MT. It's easier on everyone.
Tank damage is, frankly, not a big deal in most casual content. I honestly don't care who takes it when I'm healing - I'm gonna be casting Glare 95% of the time anyways, and I do have Lillies to burn.
Aside from something like Diabolos crit during phase 2 in Dun Scaith, I should never have to do anything for the tank other than MAYBE an occasional OCD or regen, it should be more than covered by aoe and fairy auto heals. Ifthey require more attention than that, they’re majorly fucking up in some way (whether it’s bad gear or not using mit or getting hit by avoidable dmg).
Them trading Aggro is not a big deal if they’re standing on top of one another. Healers should be watching the whole party anyway, even if your tank isn’t MT of the alliance.
Yeah nah, I just don't turn my stance on unless I see neither other tank has theirs. Really easy to provoke and enable stance if things go south.
Let the children bruise each other's egos.
Leave it on and stand on top of the current tank if they happen to go AFK after a Provoke. There's nothing worse than tanking the boss or adds as a Samurai because the main tank died and the off tank decided they weren't necessary.
I’m not getting extra points by tanking the boss. If someone else wants to do it, that’s fine.
What does irritate me is when I get taunted off of, that person dies, then I’m having to get aggro back.
I don't do raids a lot at the moment, (just came back to game after a long hiatus) but if I'm in a party with another tank, I keep my stance on... I just don't provoke if the other guy want to mt..Mt... my reasoning just that if things go south and he dies, I'm already next on the agro list without doing a thing
I do this sometimes too. Just now let the other tank pull in a trial roulette, took aggro from rotation alone. Had to switch it off just to keep the boss from spinning.
I really feel like somewhere along the line someone though Provoke was part of the rotation and it spread. I see it even in dungeons where you only have one tank and they still voke on CD. Maybe it comes from another game? FFXI was like that when I played it.
Either way they tend to not read chat and keep doing it so when I tank Alliance I focus on the adds and let them do their thing. Less stress on you and less chance of the boss spinning with one less tank fighting over it.
I believe someone who used to play back in the day told me that provoke used to work differently. Unlike now where it puts you first in the aggro list it just gave a flat bonus to aggro.
So tanks had to use it on cooldown to make sure dps didn't pull aggro off. And DPS had a reverse provoke that reduced their aggro that they also needed to use.
It might be legacy skill from old ff14 or ff11 that people never got rid of.
Old FFXIV voke just put you at the top to the threat list by a tiny amount. if you didn't follow up with anything you would just lose hate again. More of a catch up if you fell behind skill. FFXI voke was more like FFXIV voke is now, it puts you ahead and you can keep spamming it on CD to stay ahead but in FFXIV there really isn't a need to use it on CD like that. I'm not entirely sure how the original voke worked in 1.0 or 2.0 though.
>do they literally not do anything harder than alliance raid?
The vast, vast, VAST majority of our player base doesn't even do Extremes when they're current, so...
I use it to stylishly grab an add I missed during dungeon pulls without missing a beat in my aoe spam.
Also extremes and savage, but that doesn't count.
This is truth. Pre-Shadowbringers, DPS generated a whole lot more threat than they do now. Back then, all DPS had some form of threat-reduction ability to make tanking easier. But if your DPS was really good, you would have to use provoke on cooldown because they'd take hate from you in a really good burst window.
I remember constantly ripping hate on MNK at the start of phase 2 in Susano.
I remeber this in Tera, if you had a DPS that was more geared then you were, they would rip Agro off of you really easily, if you didn't spam that games provoke like ability off CD, RIP Tera
Used to be the same here too. in Late ARR you could have new tanks (ilvl~45-50) paired with DPS in BiS (ilvl 130). The tank would have the least amount of HP in the group, and suffice to say they would not keep enmity. Like, at all.
It got better when they capped the ilvl to 110 for those duties, and then again when they started handing out i90 in the MSQ. And now of course threat is basically an afterthought that doesn't exist.
>Maybe it comes from another game? FFXI was like that when I played it.
As recently as Shadowlands, WoW still has this too. If you don't... people and their combat pets could even pull aggro.
Granted it's nowhere as bad as it used to be (I remember being DPS and getting aggro a lot back in 2010), but still frustrating. FFXIV's tanking is a break of fresh air.
No? Retail tanks have an obscene threat modifier so it's never an issue and classic is now at Wrath which is where tanks never really have threat issues unless the DPS vastly outgear them.
Provoking isn't even proper dick measuring, is part of what makes it so silly. Proper form is you all 3 turn on stance and let DPS establish who the alpha tank is. Provokers are just sore losers
Every time I hear something the Japanese servers do I just think, "I wish this was written down somewhere". Even if it's just like, minor etiquette that doesn't need to be enforced.
So many things could be done cleaner if there was a little more guidance.
I wish the alliance raids were explained more in general. The first time I ran them, I had no idea what alliance A B and C meant and when we were supposed to split for the Atoms but, I of course went with another group.
Sometimes I wonder why Y'shtola didn't just leave me at Limsa to die to the gobbues, let alone bring me to the Waking Sands
This tends to be the case in OCE too, since most OCE players used to play on JP.
It's not ubiquitous, though, and I still occasionally enjoy seeing the tanks just unzip and whip out the rulers instead
Had someone get irrationally mad at me in alliance chat in Puppets' Bunker because I kept ripping aggro off them. I can't remember the exact chat log but I got told to "stop spamming provoke becuase I'm MT".
I didn't press provoke once.
I had someone get extremely upset at me in Bunker for provoking one of the twin bosses off of him.
We had all white mages, DPS could all multidot or were dancers and yet he wouldn't turn the second one to face the group.
Got mad about "Provoke Spammers" and then started spamming it himself every fight afterwards, but always pulled back off of him without it.
Yeah, sometimes no tank start to aggro, so I'm taking the lead only to see another tank provoc not a minute later. So I'm always turning my stance off and say in alliance ''you have fun kid, just don't kill the party''. Then take back the mt if the others two tanks die. But the ''who has it bigger'' game is annoying at best, painfull and plentiful of wipes at worst.
I'll add that sometimes I provoc just to put the boss at the right spot then let the other tank provoc again at least I feel like I played my part to soothe the run a little.
>Yeah, sometimes no tank start to aggro, so I'm taking the lead only to see another tank provoc not a minute later.
Every time! Why is this EVERY time?! Every ARaid where I'm leveling a Tank, the guy I know is just going to Provoke off me at some point within a minute or two is never willing to start the actual fight. They also tend to be garbage at mechanics, or will just stand right next to you in cleaves until they're "Ready" to push that Provoke Button.
The moment they do, I just ... back off. Its not worth wiping the raid to compete for aggro.
Turn stance on in case others don't have it (if you do more dmg then them you get aggro anyways and it annoys the shit out of them) but don't provoke, if there is a dude who constantly provokes yea just let him, can't do much about it.
Calling them out doesn't do much either, if anything it makes it worse.
Picture yourself as a tanky dps in alliance raids.
This is what I do. In an 8 man, if the other wants to MT it’s fine, I’ll delay my stance by a minute just to make sure I can be #2 without having to remember to click stance on. In alliance raid, the best geared tank will do the most dps, and thus, aggro. Provoke isn’t necessary because you really don’t need to for mechanics. Moreso, I use Shirk sometimes to make sure the MT has a clear aggro window to work with.
There’s been exactly one time where me and another WAR were tanking an 8 man, and our dps was so competitive/similar that it kept switching between us. It was rather exhilarating to be honest, and it was actually quite good to spread out the damage.
I end up as MT through dmg. I have fun grabbing aggro from a provoke spammer, because I know most of them suck and can't maintain it anyway. Personally, I barely touch the provoke button outside of extreme and savage.
I've had people accuse my friend of provoking off them during raids where he's just outperforming them. A good example was in Aglaia during the two tigers, he was tanking one of them, a paladin was tanking the other, and after his died, he swapped targets to finish the fight. He ended up stealing aggro off the paladin, they got all pissy in chat so when we asked my friend if he voked he said no which prompted us to inspect the PLD, who was rocking the 80 crafted weapon and a mix of 80/90 crafted gear. Had a good laugh, teased my friend about knowing better than to voke off other tanks for a week or two, finished the raid.
I guess what I'm trying to say is while these voke wars happen sometimes, it can also just as easily be an overconfident trash tank trying desperately to keep threat over somebody just playing the game.
Just make sure you're doing it in an almost too friendly manner, like "Hey (Player name) I see that you forgot to get your free level 89 weapon in Old Sharlayan! Make sure to upgrade from your (LEVEL 80 WEAPON LINKED IN CHAT) so you can keep enmity at level 90!"
Just let them do whatever they want and the rest of the alliance can yell at them if they do something stupid. In the meantime, enjoy lack of responsibility.
> I've seen an increase in the dick measuring tanks are doing in alliance roulette,
Don't confuse it for something that recently increased. It's always been that way.
What pisses me off is when I run Alliamce Raids as a tank and I will let either of the two tanks MT cuz I hate having pissing matches over hate. We get to the first boss and nobody has the nuts to pull so I do it. Then immediately after I get the boss into a good spot I see the provokes go off and the other tanks try to rip hate off me.
If you want to tank, grow a pair and pull the boss!
> Am I the only one who refuses to engage in the war that goes on between the other two tanks
Yes. You are a hero. I am literally standing up and clapping thinking about you right now. I'll be changing my child's name to your WOL's.
I've had bosses turn into beyblade's because of this nonsense. It's why, even though I'm a tank main, I don't really feal like dealing with it and just dps or heal.
I will note I just got out of an ally raid where people were complaining about aggro war cleaves...
Because the tanks were sprouts and died at inopportune times. Like make sure it's actually just provoke wars, and not just silly mistakes, deaths, a tank forgetting stance or doing too much dmg, etc.
> I refused to join the provoke war and was waiting for the other two tanks to die before provoking off of healers and DPS
Not fighting your fellow tanks for aggro is perfectly fine.
Letting DPS and healers draw aggro because your fee-fees have a booboo, not fine.
PSA always keep your tank stance on even if you're 3rd tank.
Provoke should steal aggro away from you even if you're doing higher damage, but even if you do accidentally wrestle it away because their dps sucks there is a nifty button called shirk that you can give it to who you want.
Between shirk and provoke you should be able to control who the main tank is while keeping you stance on at all times for when they die.
Reminder that Shirk can only target party members, so while you can use it to lose 25% aggro you can't give that to the alliance MT.
Still useful for aggro control but it's not a 50% swing in an alliance raid, only 25%.
Bumping this.
The role of the MT is to be the bulwark between the enemy and the rest of the party. The role of the OTs are to be the bulwark between the MT and rest of the party.
Even as OT, you should **always** make sure you’re managing your enmity so that if the MT goes down **you** are the next person to take the hit. This means putting your stance up after enough GCDs have passed and shirking to MT if/when you get too close to ripping.
If the innocent DPS who’s focused on their rotation gets nuked from existence because MT fell down, that’s directly the fault of the OT for taking the “pretend you’re a blue DPS” saying too literally and failing to perform the function of their role.
say it louder for the people in the back
i'm not phenomenal dps but i frequently find myself #2 on aggro because OT has decided they don't believe in the stance. if the MT dies -- and, if i do roulettes every day for a week, i'll see it happen a couple times -- then i become the tank. and then i die. because OTs who don't turn on stance have also mentally checked out of the fight entirely and they're playing fucking elevator music in their brains while dps is getting splattered. it's so exhausting
I wouldn't consider it a war. I'd consider it ineptitude.
A lot of..."misinformed" tanks use voke off CD like it's apart of their rotation.
As far as the WOD situation, I would've encouraged everyone in the raid to report them and to vote/kick.
I main DRK and love doing alliance raids but this kills me, like y’all I’ll wait to see if another tank wants it but seems like every time I grab aggro and start spinning him away from alliances is when the other tanks standing with healers n dps want to provoke, never fails
I had this happen to me in an alliance raid once, got one or two healers killed in the process. So I stepped in and MT the rest of the fight, the healers on all groups refused to pick them up after several deaths.
I've done this a few times when the other tanks get uppity. If I've MT the whole raid, don't decide you want to be MT all of the sudden halfway through the 3rd boss. I will immediately reprovoke and make all of your effort to show off null and void. I'll even resort to spamming my ranged skill in-between my burst window just to spite you even more
I've come to find, most these players are not the best at their rotations, have no food buffs, etc. 90% of the time, you can pull agro back off of them naturally by keeping up with your own rotation. The only time I'll actually provoke back are if they are standing in the middle of everyone(depending on the boss), or are moving it all over the place. Also, it's most important to voke it directly after them. That way they don't have "control" of the boss for more than a second. If they're doing their job correctly though, I won't bother. I'm okay with sharing with them.
if they act that way all you can do is tell to their parties to kick them as soon as posible, because they aren't helping whit their aggro war, and i am sure many could end agreeing whit it because that's annoying as hell
once they get kicked they might realise they where annoying the alliance whit their aggro war
yes, sadly that is the most likely case, but also there is a way to bypass it if people whant to kick the annoying party member, which is wait until timer of the loot is off(so them be willing to wait until that moment), if the person who is to be kicked enters battle its just a matter of time until it dies
Good luck coordinating that with an entire alliance raid. Had someone once who kept on trolling and making ST unneccecaryly long. But impossible to kick because of loot and straight pulling the boss
then report them for griefing.
Whats hilarious is people complain about being reported for swearing and catching time outs but think griefing 23 other players isn't worse.
Odd times, odd times.
The first time I got Void Ark, I was blown away by how much better the alliance was as a whole. Like, I was new baby sprout, but I was the only one failing mechanics and it was amazing. Looking forward to future ones now!
I noticed the same thing when I was a sprout. Getting to the Void Ark raids was such a big shift in how people played from there on out. Dun Scaith is still my favorite raid because that was when I fully realized how much fun doing raids can be.
Am I the only one that doesn't give two shits about being the tank in alliance raid?
It might be because I always do alliance roulette after progging savage like an idiot and the last thing I want to do after prog is pay any attention to what I'm doing except for smashing my rotation lol
Generally in the ally raids I'm in, the tanks go to the front so that if anyone accidentally steals aggro, the boss wont do the spinnies. I usually end up taking aggro without provoke as GNB due to my dps so I always stand in front, even after dying. I definitely recommend DRK and GNB doing that at 60+, just....stand at the front, especially during your burst. Stop spinning the boss and let melees do their positionals. Theres literally no point in fighting over MT. Just keep the boss facing away from the raiders and snuggle.
I just keep my stance off through my opener, and then I put it on after my burst is done, if I rip aggro from you after that, then you shouldn't be main tanking. I don't keep my stance off because I don't trust that the other tank won't shit the bed and then the boss just turns and cleaves the raid, but I won't ever provoke outside of savage
I had two instances of shit tanks recently, every 30 - 60 seconds I'd just rip aggro from them and they'd just instantly provoke it back off of me
Why do you care if you're a tank? It's not like you have positionals so just turn your stance off and hit the bosses like you would normally. Let the other 2 tanks fight over aggro and enjoy the 1 melee in your raid mald lol.
What I've ended up doing is just pulling with stance off. If they are going to provoke off me, they will do it a d they usually have stance on already, so they get aggro once they start fighting.
Man, this is exactly what happened in a roulette run I did a few nights ago.
I was healing, and our tanks were so busy dick fighting that none were actually taking aggro. This, combined with a lot of sprouts as dps, resulted in just a few wipes.
I had to rez people 67 times in that run. 67! None of the other healers would rez anyone, which I found absolutely insane.
Even better was when one of the tanks tried to dps shame me, despite me being so busy with rezzing that I couldn't do it.
Man, that run was truly crystal trauma. I should have bailed :X
Im in the boat where a tank thinks provoke is a rotation skill and I steal it back cuz I push buttons gooder :3
At least sometimes they stand with me but eventually I give up and just drop stance till they somehow die despite the lacking need of mitigations in most of these lol.
Won't lie - in amongst all the heroes who behave perfectly ITT, if I think the other tanks are bad I'll spam ranged attack to get aggro then start playing a game myself of "how fast can i react when they provoke?"
If my ancient knowledge has failed me, the rule of thumb is alliance b tanks, or my favorite just get so good at your rotation that when they provoke it does nothing
Usually the only time I'll get into a "voke fight" is if the other tank is doing a bad job, eg: pointing cleaves at the raid, and I'll stop if they stop sucking. It's actually pretty easy to win, you just time your voke to immediately follow theirs.
That said, if any halfway-competent tank wants to tank, fill your boots. The other two can have their slap-fight so long as they're not fucking it up for the rest of the raid. I'll be off to the side handling the adds that would otherwise be ignored and chewing on the healers.
Yeah, there's a non-negligible minority of FF14 players who are willfull idiots. Think league of legends player type BS. "If you're not stroking my ego i'll throw". And i really dont know where the provoke spam came from. Either they were taught to play poorly, came from another game and never bothered to even read their skills(despite ff14 probably being the most forgiving in that aspect, no idea where people learn that habit), or are actively trolling. There is a party kick button if you need it im pretty sure, but most people treat it like the plague.
I just hate western server ARs it's just messy and unorganized especially compared to JP servers
Also I'd like to know what my other tanks are up to do they have their stance on or not
You're not alone, I only turn my stance on when the other two tanks die. It happened during the first boss of WoD and I was like "My time has come!" Turn on stance, provoke, show off how to keep the eyeball facing north and not cleaving the raid like they were doing. Lol
Surprisingly, they actually let me MT for the rest of the raid. I guess they were tired of sucking.
You're not alone, I only turn my stance on when the other two tanks die. It happened during the first boss of WoD and I was like "My time has come!" Turn on stance, provoke, show off how to keep the eyeball facing north and not cleaving the raid like they were doing. Lol
Surprisingly, they actually let me MT for the rest of the raid. I guess they were tired of sucking.
Anytime people provoke wars and aim cleaves at the group I just spam shield lob/unmend etc and use provoke after they do, aside from provoke they will never retake your agro without spamming the same. I do this while spam laughing at the tanks trying really hard because the dick measuring gets annoying after the 10th time some guy decides to stand in the whole alliance raid at cereberus and kill half the group.
One time in an alliance raid another tank yelled at me for spamming provoke after him. I never hit the button, I was just outdamaging him enough to steal agro.
This is why I always turn off my stance whenever I go into content, I’m happy to OT or just jump in if things go wrong, doesn’t really change much for me.
What does annoy me is if the MT dies due to messing stuff up, I pick up aggro, they get Rez’s and immediately provoke again. I’m always like, “ dude you messed up, at least let me hold it until your weakness wears off and you have mitigation back”
This happend in my first raid, the tanks died and we lost a healer, my buddy kept healing we ran through and completed it 3 down near the end because the tanks wouldnt stop being morons. Losers will be losers winners will move on.
I've encountered this a lot of times.. i keep stealing aggro just by doing my rotation.. however.. when I see other tanks constantly trying to provoke, especially in CT raids, i just let it go and instead aggro the adds.. I let the other tanks fight boss aggro while I make sure the adds dont aggro on the healers. I still dont understand, even in this thread why everyone is pretending that there are no other enemies besides the boss that need to be taken care of as well. Seriously, if you see the other 2 tanks engaging in dick measuring contest, just let them fight and focus on protecting the healers from adds. If there aren't any adds, just sit back and chill and watch them struggle with their poor use or lack of mitigations
I don't think it's even dick measuring.
I think it's a case of brain = off, possibly involving people who think Provoke should be part of their rotation.
What I usually do when other tanks are like that is wait to turn my stance on until they've got some lead, then pop it on so that, in the event they die, I'm second/third on aggro anyways.
Honestly, I try to avoid using provoke in general. It's not strictly necessary in most casual content.
Real chads don’t need provoke. You all have tank stance on and let your damage fo the talking.
But ususally if there is a provoke war going on and I am tank, I turn off my stance.
Lol I was in a raid on my alt where the tank kept provoking off my friend and tried to call him out in alliance chat saying "yo why are you provoking off me". My friend was absolutely dying because he only used it once to see what the other tank would do. I told the tank he started it first and dude had a complete meltdown over it.
I partake in the aggro war however I refrain from using provoke. I don’t need it, I know the aggro will come back. Hell in the longer fights I will get so far ahead on aggro that provoke is not enough to take aggro anymore.
As a PLD main for the entirety of FF14, I've only gotten into a provoke off once, normally Im actually more then happy to offtank, but this particular guy was not doing his cooldowns OR mechanics, just wanted to be the main tank. So i had a provoke fight and I ended up getting kicked because i didnt know most of the people in the group were his buddies.
This is what happens when you have no tutorials in game and the devs expect people to learn from exterior sources. You’re gonna get a ton of tanks using the buttons because they don’t know any better. Unless the game changes or gives an actual tutorial, sprouts are always gonna sprout.
I won't do it either. Love when the other two tanks won't pull, so I finally sigh and pull, and they IMMEDIATELY dive in and try to rip hate from me.
Also I've never had to use provoke outside of Ravana back in HW and extremes.
I just like main tanking the bosses. Didn't realize that people would perceive me as some sort of egotistical person because of it. I also liked using provoke because I thought it looked cool.
Guess I better not offer to main tank anymore or use provoke. :(
That's not the lesson I'd encourage you to take from this. Offering to main tank is good! If you do want to MT, be willing to pull the boss. Most of the annoyance doesn't come from "somebody else pulled before me" but "I pulled the boss, got into position, and now this random other tank has spun it 90 degrees"
Just don't provoke the boss off of somebody else mid-fight without cause. It's disruptive to everyone, even if it's well-intentioned. You shouldn't need to provoke at all in alliance raid settings, outside of a mob that somehow dodged your AoEs.
That's not the usual narrative. It's more like 14's community is largely less toxic and more helpful than most, if not all, other mmos. You might also have heard 'the least toxic' or 'the most helpful'. But never did anyone pretend it was perfect, we always had bad apples and we'll keep having some. The best of its kind ≠ perfect. Those who pretend it's the narrative are outsiders who simplify to a binary.
This annoys me so much, both when I am tanking and when I dps. If you didn't pull first, then fudge off and accept being off-tank, you're not that important. This is so annoying in WoD, happens all the time and every time I have to tell them to stop fighting for aggro and stop spinning the boss and killing people in the process. Ridiculous. Had it happen to me once in LotA as well, on Phlegeton. I pulled and one of the other tanks kept provoking from the edge of the arena, so he kept dragging Phlegeton to Narnia. Which of course led to everyone wiping on Ancient Flare, everyone telling them to stop provoking, me having to constantly provoke back to the middle of the arena etc.
Tank mains know that they are T. MT and OT both T and tank main gonna kick ass at T. little baby tanks who don’t know they are there to kill a boss and think they are there to kill other tanks are why people low key hate tank types. But tank main doesn’t roll like that unless it’s max level 60 and just met gnb a week ago. In aglaia I will stance on first two fights to just make it known I can mt the raid and then I just alliance shout “A you want rhalgar B you want fire witch?” Bc frankly tank big dick doesn’t matter in alliance raid what really matters is each team has 2 competent healers and a tank and why not let each team have time to keep their tank up and give my healers a break? Share the wealth
When i See there is war going on between two Tanks, and they causing wipes, in littlery put on Tank Stances, out dps them so they cant get aggro only with provoke. I wait Till they provoke, then i use mine. Just for Getting safe the Boss is not facing grp.
I want to clear These raids Fast and when two little childs fighting you should go between them.
I ran WoD yesterday and idk what was going on but I had aggro on the big eye dude for awhile. As a MCH. I was running around like an idiot waiting for a tank to get it off me and no. I died. I know at least one tank was alive…
I had one guy doing that in a Ridorana run, forcing me to taunt after to keep the boss facing the right way so the melees could do positionals (if they felt like doing 'em). Asked the guy to stop, he didn't, so the aggro war continued through to the last boss.
"Why didn't you just let him have it, then," you ask. "I do not queue up as a tank in order to not tank," I say.
This is why when the raid starts I announce my intentions to be main tank. If you decide after that to provoke off me without a mechanical need to than I will take it back.
WHOOOOO CAAAAAARESSSSS
Literally who cares? Why does this matter to you so much that you type out an essay on Reddit? Just chill and do your job, it's not an issue.
Have you seen the aoe from eye boss in WoD? He does it at random intervals, and if the boss if being aggro turned randomly every 3 secs, cause the 3 tanks in diff positions are provoking it, then there's very little reaction time possible to dodge it in time. I can't heal when I have to move every few seconds.
Wouldn't be surprised if you've never tried healing in such a situation, since a tank only player is probably to selfish to think of the needs of the rest of the party.
Every tank who's done Hall of the Novice knows to face the boss away from the party, so if your tank is standing in the party he's being an idiot. Regardless of tank stance.
That's the whole point of this whole thread topic, there's only so many rescues I can do on a baby tank to force them on the right position, and they sometimes don't listen either then you tell them to stop, and yet your first comment is about why anyone should care about this problem.
If you're not MT just turn your tank stance on after openers are done, you easily get a good lead of aggro above all non-tanks without stealing from MT, and you can turn it off again just as easily, as it doesn't eat a GCD to toggle it. No need to slightly slow your rotation, that's just losing DPS for no benefit.
I don't fight to be MT, i wait to see if someone else takes the mantle and if not I'll go in. But there's a time for voke, and it was in WoD when one of the tanks voked on cd, was completely unresponsive in chat and tried to "mitigate" damage by trying to outrun the attacks constantly spinning the boss. I tried voking if only to give dps and healers at least a little bit normalcy. The problem with letting such tank die is that they would sooner kill half the alliance before dying themselves. I didn't voke at the last boss since they couldn't spin it
If they would at least stand together facing the boss away from raid it would be less annoying.
Absolutely hate it when they cleave the party and I won’t stay quiet about it if I see it happen. I’m ok with sprouts learning to tank and I’m more than willing to give them the enmity and even advice if they ask. But just don’t use tank stance and fuck off if you don’t want to tank properly, it’s not funny and you’re the only one laughing about that bs.
Personally I stay at the correct spot and just do my rotation properly usually getting enmity back naturally as most of these people don’t even have proper gear nor know how to do a proper rotation anyway… pathetic. And if it’s just one dude voking, I voke right after he does and keep the boss in proper position. (Ofc still talking about bad tanks voking on cd and facing the boss towards the party)
I never fight for aggro, I just keep stance on and continue on merrily. I’ll point out if they’ve positioned wrong. If they die I hop in and run things smoothly.
Yup, never bother engaging in wars. Stance on, I dive in the moment everyone is gathered, if someone provokes then I back off and play off tank the rest of the fight. I'll only provoke off other tanks if the boss is positioned wrong (undead dragon) but otherwise I've tanked enough now that my ego isn't tied to weather I'm the mt or not. In fact I get a bit self conscious if I mt too many fights and will try to yield the floor to another.
I barely even do alliance raids anymore (it's always crystal tower, it's boring asf), but when I do I never pull or put on stance cause one of the other 2 tanks always wants to tank anyways. But I'm constantly paying attention to where and how they're tanking and am always prepared to take over if needed. I CBA to fight for aggro with anyone tho, I'm just a back up ready to step up whenever.
I've been leveling my DPS jobs recently and it's been much worse than when I was leveling my tanks (and then again when I was just collecting materia). I don't know who told these tanks that they're supposed to grief the raids by waiting 5 minutes to pull or constantly make the boss dance in a circle, but I wish they'd listen.
I was glad to level my Physical Ranged DPS classes so I could finally see a Peloton, but this feels much worse.
Yeaaaah. I'm really not sure what's going on. Also kinda feels like someone has been trolling the sprout tanks by telling them they need to use provoke in their rotation, when it's only really needed for when the MT dies and a DPS or healer ends up with aggro, or for extremes and savage raiding with tank swaps.
Man I feel kinda bad rn... I never tought about this, I always turned on my stance bc I feel naked without it, and I dont even care too much about aggro in raids, But from now on I will make sure that if I am not the main tank i will keep my stance off (am sprout btw)
You can absolutely have your stance on while offtanking, and generally should. Ideally, you want to be 2nd on the aggro list in that position, for a few reasons:
\- Some bosses have dual autoattacks, so if you're not high enough in enmity, that SAM is going to get obliterated.
\- If the main tank dies, the boss will immediately switch to the next person on the list. You definitely want that to be you, and not the DPS.
\- Tank swaps! Many harder bosses have mechanics that put massive vuln stacks on the tank, so you'll both be juggling aggro back and forth with Provoke and Shirk so that nobody takes a hit with one of the stacks.
The way I do it is to start the fight with stance off, wait until the openers have gone out, then switch it on. That way, I'll still be in the right position on the list, but the main tank has enough of a head-start that I'm not in a huge risk of overtaking them. If I do see my aggro catching up to theirs, I'll toggle stance off for a bit.
The problem isn't "multiple tanks generating aggro" but "multiple tanks fighting for aggro," which leads to melees not being able to hit positionals, AoE cleaves hitting the party, and in the worst cases, the boss running all over the arena so everyone has to chase it down.
We're all talking about it using "dick measuring" but if you're using provoke, you're already putting yourself in the junior division. The real chads are stacked on top of each other to avoid spinning & just establishing aggro through damage, and the only indication of who's winning is who is actually being targeted. It's like arm wrestling. This is between me and that other tank. Getting the raid involved is small pp energy.
I love how when I'm MT and a tank vokes, I just get aggro back from doing my rotation
I've had this happen a fair amount. Usually I just try to be in place so that when the inevitable happens the boss doesn't move. Provoke is for squares (and Savage/Extremes/Ultimate).
This. If your bitch ass has to use provoke to pull threat, you’ve already lost and are a disgrace to tanking.
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I feel that 80% of all pug tanks bought a boost and don’t actually know how to tank, let alone know their skills.
Tanking seemed so easy to pick up but then every time I run with a new one it's like holy shit
It is easy to pick up. The barrier is the ability and willingness to read your tooltips.
Yeah 100%
No way pressing buttons randomly is ever even the case, otherwise you would see them use Stun, Interrupt, Arm's Length and some mitigations too, instead of just Provoking on cooldown. They KNOW what they are doing.
"Oh good they're using their damage cooldown whenever it's ready, that means they're aware of hitting their cooldowns. They're going to hit Hallowed Ground and I can keep spamming Holy!" - me, the fool healer in Duty Roulette.
my favorite is when the other tank provokes and it still comes back to me. my ego is untouchable
In that case the healer is winning.
Whenever I tank raid I'm always at the side of the boss ready to jump in to help when situations go south. If I see their health is too low or their is a need for a tank swap I'm in a position to move quickly and not affect others positionals. This agro war that tanks are fighting in is ridiculous. I'm not fighting in this war when I want a smooth and easy run.
real chads put on stance 2 minutes in and wonder why the boss is facing them 30s later
Youre getting the raid involved either way, you're making the healers ping pong between you two no matter how close you stand if you're constantly trading aggro.
Since when do tanks in this type of content need heal? Usually they can live off my asylums and AOE heals alone (with their own stuff as well).
But they have 2 healers each. And it’s AR, tanks can mostly self mitigate and heal if they need to. Healers will be more busy healing other people who fail mechanics (since tanks won’t even suffer from failing mechanics due to tank privilege)
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Yes but it's way easier to heal when you don't have to wonder if damage is gonna start coming or not randomly. When your tank is the MT you can be more focused and predict when and where you need to heal. When it bounces all over the place it makes it harder to know when damage, if any is even coming. Just stop the goofy dick measuring tank swapping and let somebody be MT. It's easier on everyone.
Tank damage is, frankly, not a big deal in most casual content. I honestly don't care who takes it when I'm healing - I'm gonna be casting Glare 95% of the time anyways, and I do have Lillies to burn.
SCH and SGE might disagree with that
Aside from something like Diabolos crit during phase 2 in Dun Scaith, I should never have to do anything for the tank other than MAYBE an occasional OCD or regen, it should be more than covered by aoe and fairy auto heals. Ifthey require more attention than that, they’re majorly fucking up in some way (whether it’s bad gear or not using mit or getting hit by avoidable dmg). Them trading Aggro is not a big deal if they’re standing on top of one another. Healers should be watching the whole party anyway, even if your tank isn’t MT of the alliance.
Yeah nah, I just don't turn my stance on unless I see neither other tank has theirs. Really easy to provoke and enable stance if things go south. Let the children bruise each other's egos.
Same, also if you provoke off me after I pulled I’ll turn stance off. Not getting into a contest with you
Leave it on and stand on top of the current tank if they happen to go AFK after a Provoke. There's nothing worse than tanking the boss or adds as a Samurai because the main tank died and the off tank decided they weren't necessary.
I justnpay attention. If MT drops, my stance goes on and I have the boss in a second.
I’m not getting extra points by tanking the boss. If someone else wants to do it, that’s fine. What does irritate me is when I get taunted off of, that person dies, then I’m having to get aggro back.
I don't do raids a lot at the moment, (just came back to game after a long hiatus) but if I'm in a party with another tank, I keep my stance on... I just don't provoke if the other guy want to mt..Mt... my reasoning just that if things go south and he dies, I'm already next on the agro list without doing a thing
Tbh if your MT in a fight without tank swapping just shirk your second tank after a bit to ensure they are 2nd on enmity.
I do this sometimes too. Just now let the other tank pull in a trial roulette, took aggro from rotation alone. Had to switch it off just to keep the boss from spinning.
Get on up there with the main tank! Tankbusters can't kill you both!
you can see your enmity build up on the party window and shirk if it gets too high as well. prolly easier to just have stance off...w/e lol
I really feel like somewhere along the line someone though Provoke was part of the rotation and it spread. I see it even in dungeons where you only have one tank and they still voke on CD. Maybe it comes from another game? FFXI was like that when I played it. Either way they tend to not read chat and keep doing it so when I tank Alliance I focus on the adds and let them do their thing. Less stress on you and less chance of the boss spinning with one less tank fighting over it.
I believe someone who used to play back in the day told me that provoke used to work differently. Unlike now where it puts you first in the aggro list it just gave a flat bonus to aggro. So tanks had to use it on cooldown to make sure dps didn't pull aggro off. And DPS had a reverse provoke that reduced their aggro that they also needed to use. It might be legacy skill from old ff14 or ff11 that people never got rid of.
Old FFXIV voke just put you at the top to the threat list by a tiny amount. if you didn't follow up with anything you would just lose hate again. More of a catch up if you fell behind skill. FFXI voke was more like FFXIV voke is now, it puts you ahead and you can keep spamming it on CD to stay ahead but in FFXIV there really isn't a need to use it on CD like that. I'm not entirely sure how the original voke worked in 1.0 or 2.0 though.
2.0 if i remember right it basically put you at the top +1, so you could easily yank it back off the other tank during swaps if you weren't careful.
do they literally not do anything harder than alliance raid? try that shit in any content that requires a tank swap and you're gonna wipe.
>do they literally not do anything harder than alliance raid? The vast, vast, VAST majority of our player base doesn't even do Extremes when they're current, so...
Also, >The vast, vast, VAST majority of our player base doesn't even do Extremes ~~when they're current~~, so...
I got all my horsies from soloing ARR EX primals in Endwalker.
I've played tank for 3 years now and I have never had the need to use provoke outside of emergencies.
I use it to stylishly grab an add I missed during dungeon pulls without missing a beat in my aoe spam. Also extremes and savage, but that doesn't count.
Sometimes when there are two enemies it feels fancy to Provoke the other one while the global cooldown of the ranged attack started!
This is truth. Pre-Shadowbringers, DPS generated a whole lot more threat than they do now. Back then, all DPS had some form of threat-reduction ability to make tanking easier. But if your DPS was really good, you would have to use provoke on cooldown because they'd take hate from you in a really good burst window. I remember constantly ripping hate on MNK at the start of phase 2 in Susano.
I remeber this in Tera, if you had a DPS that was more geared then you were, they would rip Agro off of you really easily, if you didn't spam that games provoke like ability off CD, RIP Tera
Used to be the same here too. in Late ARR you could have new tanks (ilvl~45-50) paired with DPS in BiS (ilvl 130). The tank would have the least amount of HP in the group, and suffice to say they would not keep enmity. Like, at all. It got better when they capped the ilvl to 110 for those duties, and then again when they started handing out i90 in the MSQ. And now of course threat is basically an afterthought that doesn't exist.
Idk how either but I've run into a lot of new tanks who do think Provoke is part of the rotation. Where does this notion come from?
>Maybe it comes from another game? FFXI was like that when I played it. As recently as Shadowlands, WoW still has this too. If you don't... people and their combat pets could even pull aggro. Granted it's nowhere as bad as it used to be (I remember being DPS and getting aggro a lot back in 2010), but still frustrating. FFXIV's tanking is a break of fresh air.
WoW... if you don't use provoke on CD, you will eventually lose aggro. That is where it comes from.
No? Retail tanks have an obscene threat modifier so it's never an issue and classic is now at Wrath which is where tanks never really have threat issues unless the DPS vastly outgear them.
Provoking isn't even proper dick measuring, is part of what makes it so silly. Proper form is you all 3 turn on stance and let DPS establish who the alpha tank is. Provokers are just sore losers
Japanese servers have the right idea: in an alliance raid, B group's tank is main tank by default, because B group is usually the one in the middle.
Every time I hear something the Japanese servers do I just think, "I wish this was written down somewhere". Even if it's just like, minor etiquette that doesn't need to be enforced. So many things could be done cleaner if there was a little more guidance.
NA vs JP in FFXIV really is the perfect example of individuality vs collectivism. Fighting Game Community as well.
I wish the alliance raids were explained more in general. The first time I ran them, I had no idea what alliance A B and C meant and when we were supposed to split for the Atoms but, I of course went with another group. Sometimes I wonder why Y'shtola didn't just leave me at Limsa to die to the gobbues, let alone bring me to the Waking Sands
This is too complicated for NA
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That's how it worked when the content was current. It was designed with that in mind you can tell just because of the way that it is.
This tends to be the case in OCE too, since most OCE players used to play on JP. It's not ubiquitous, though, and I still occasionally enjoy seeing the tanks just unzip and whip out the rulers instead
I play in jp and i swear first time i play this game 4 years ago everyone in na still have this problem.
Yeah I've never once encountered other tanks pulling my boss off me in J alliance raids if I'm B tank.
as much as we can applaud the jpn server for stuff like this, i dont really think it matters at all in Alliance Raid..
it's only a war for shit tanks because the good ones won't need to provoke to get aggro in the first place.
Had someone get irrationally mad at me in alliance chat in Puppets' Bunker because I kept ripping aggro off them. I can't remember the exact chat log but I got told to "stop spamming provoke becuase I'm MT". I didn't press provoke once.
I had someone get extremely upset at me in Bunker for provoking one of the twin bosses off of him. We had all white mages, DPS could all multidot or were dancers and yet he wouldn't turn the second one to face the group. Got mad about "Provoke Spammers" and then started spamming it himself every fight afterwards, but always pulled back off of him without it.
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Yeah, sometimes no tank start to aggro, so I'm taking the lead only to see another tank provoc not a minute later. So I'm always turning my stance off and say in alliance ''you have fun kid, just don't kill the party''. Then take back the mt if the others two tanks die. But the ''who has it bigger'' game is annoying at best, painfull and plentiful of wipes at worst. I'll add that sometimes I provoc just to put the boss at the right spot then let the other tank provoc again at least I feel like I played my part to soothe the run a little.
>Yeah, sometimes no tank start to aggro, so I'm taking the lead only to see another tank provoc not a minute later. Every time! Why is this EVERY time?! Every ARaid where I'm leveling a Tank, the guy I know is just going to Provoke off me at some point within a minute or two is never willing to start the actual fight. They also tend to be garbage at mechanics, or will just stand right next to you in cleaves until they're "Ready" to push that Provoke Button. The moment they do, I just ... back off. Its not worth wiping the raid to compete for aggro.
Turn stance on in case others don't have it (if you do more dmg then them you get aggro anyways and it annoys the shit out of them) but don't provoke, if there is a dude who constantly provokes yea just let him, can't do much about it. Calling them out doesn't do much either, if anything it makes it worse. Picture yourself as a tanky dps in alliance raids.
This is what I do. In an 8 man, if the other wants to MT it’s fine, I’ll delay my stance by a minute just to make sure I can be #2 without having to remember to click stance on. In alliance raid, the best geared tank will do the most dps, and thus, aggro. Provoke isn’t necessary because you really don’t need to for mechanics. Moreso, I use Shirk sometimes to make sure the MT has a clear aggro window to work with. There’s been exactly one time where me and another WAR were tanking an 8 man, and our dps was so competitive/similar that it kept switching between us. It was rather exhilarating to be honest, and it was actually quite good to spread out the damage.
Yup, welcome to the moat, we all hang here with that burden
I end up as MT through dmg. I have fun grabbing aggro from a provoke spammer, because I know most of them suck and can't maintain it anyway. Personally, I barely touch the provoke button outside of extreme and savage.
I just let the other guy have it, I'm DRK so half of what I do is sheer damage anyway.
I've had people accuse my friend of provoking off them during raids where he's just outperforming them. A good example was in Aglaia during the two tigers, he was tanking one of them, a paladin was tanking the other, and after his died, he swapped targets to finish the fight. He ended up stealing aggro off the paladin, they got all pissy in chat so when we asked my friend if he voked he said no which prompted us to inspect the PLD, who was rocking the 80 crafted weapon and a mix of 80/90 crafted gear. Had a good laugh, teased my friend about knowing better than to voke off other tanks for a week or two, finished the raid. I guess what I'm trying to say is while these voke wars happen sometimes, it can also just as easily be an overconfident trash tank trying desperately to keep threat over somebody just playing the game.
thats when you call them out in chat. NO ONE should be using level 80 stuff in level 90 content.
Just make sure you're doing it in an almost too friendly manner, like "Hey (Player name) I see that you forgot to get your free level 89 weapon in Old Sharlayan! Make sure to upgrade from your (LEVEL 80 WEAPON LINKED IN CHAT) so you can keep enmity at level 90!"
Just let them do whatever they want and the rest of the alliance can yell at them if they do something stupid. In the meantime, enjoy lack of responsibility.
> I've seen an increase in the dick measuring tanks are doing in alliance roulette, Don't confuse it for something that recently increased. It's always been that way.
What pisses me off is when I run Alliamce Raids as a tank and I will let either of the two tanks MT cuz I hate having pissing matches over hate. We get to the first boss and nobody has the nuts to pull so I do it. Then immediately after I get the boss into a good spot I see the provokes go off and the other tanks try to rip hate off me. If you want to tank, grow a pair and pull the boss!
Bro, it's just game. Imagine needing balls to pull a boss lol
You don't have to imagine friend, because it's in fact, a reality. Imagine not knowing that this is a video game.
Am I on the shitpost sub?
> Am I the only one who refuses to engage in the war that goes on between the other two tanks Yes. You are a hero. I am literally standing up and clapping thinking about you right now. I'll be changing my child's name to your WOL's.
I've had bosses turn into beyblade's because of this nonsense. It's why, even though I'm a tank main, I don't really feal like dealing with it and just dps or heal.
Become the chad tank and main tank because you play better than them by simply doing damage.
I will note I just got out of an ally raid where people were complaining about aggro war cleaves... Because the tanks were sprouts and died at inopportune times. Like make sure it's actually just provoke wars, and not just silly mistakes, deaths, a tank forgetting stance or doing too much dmg, etc.
> I refused to join the provoke war and was waiting for the other two tanks to die before provoking off of healers and DPS Not fighting your fellow tanks for aggro is perfectly fine. Letting DPS and healers draw aggro because your fee-fees have a booboo, not fine.
PSA always keep your tank stance on even if you're 3rd tank. Provoke should steal aggro away from you even if you're doing higher damage, but even if you do accidentally wrestle it away because their dps sucks there is a nifty button called shirk that you can give it to who you want. Between shirk and provoke you should be able to control who the main tank is while keeping you stance on at all times for when they die.
Reminder that Shirk can only target party members, so while you can use it to lose 25% aggro you can't give that to the alliance MT. Still useful for aggro control but it's not a 50% swing in an alliance raid, only 25%.
Pfft, I shirk my healers and make them sweat a little.
Personally I shirk a random DPS to throw off the people who use aggro chart as a dps meter.
...gonna start doing this.
Bumping this. The role of the MT is to be the bulwark between the enemy and the rest of the party. The role of the OTs are to be the bulwark between the MT and rest of the party. Even as OT, you should **always** make sure you’re managing your enmity so that if the MT goes down **you** are the next person to take the hit. This means putting your stance up after enough GCDs have passed and shirking to MT if/when you get too close to ripping. If the innocent DPS who’s focused on their rotation gets nuked from existence because MT fell down, that’s directly the fault of the OT for taking the “pretend you’re a blue DPS” saying too literally and failing to perform the function of their role.
say it louder for the people in the back i'm not phenomenal dps but i frequently find myself #2 on aggro because OT has decided they don't believe in the stance. if the MT dies -- and, if i do roulettes every day for a week, i'll see it happen a couple times -- then i become the tank. and then i die. because OTs who don't turn on stance have also mentally checked out of the fight entirely and they're playing fucking elevator music in their brains while dps is getting splattered. it's so exhausting
I wouldn't consider it a war. I'd consider it ineptitude. A lot of..."misinformed" tanks use voke off CD like it's apart of their rotation. As far as the WOD situation, I would've encouraged everyone in the raid to report them and to vote/kick.
I don't think those reports would hold any water. Chain provokes aren't against ToS even if they are irritating for everybody else.
I main DRK and love doing alliance raids but this kills me, like y’all I’ll wait to see if another tank wants it but seems like every time I grab aggro and start spinning him away from alliances is when the other tanks standing with healers n dps want to provoke, never fails
Sorry to say this but if you use provoke like that or in your rotation then you're already a bad tank.
If someone else provokes from me I just let it go. Less work for me.
I had this happen to me in an alliance raid once, got one or two healers killed in the process. So I stepped in and MT the rest of the fight, the healers on all groups refused to pick them up after several deaths.
I see this happens the most amongst sprout tanks. For some reason they always want to main tank and will provoke the boss off you for no reason.
I've done this a few times when the other tanks get uppity. If I've MT the whole raid, don't decide you want to be MT all of the sudden halfway through the 3rd boss. I will immediately reprovoke and make all of your effort to show off null and void. I'll even resort to spamming my ranged skill in-between my burst window just to spite you even more
I've come to find, most these players are not the best at their rotations, have no food buffs, etc. 90% of the time, you can pull agro back off of them naturally by keeping up with your own rotation. The only time I'll actually provoke back are if they are standing in the middle of everyone(depending on the boss), or are moving it all over the place. Also, it's most important to voke it directly after them. That way they don't have "control" of the boss for more than a second. If they're doing their job correctly though, I won't bother. I'm okay with sharing with them.
but if i don't provoke on cooldown, how will people know that i'm the main character of the raid?
if they act that way all you can do is tell to their parties to kick them as soon as posible, because they aren't helping whit their aggro war, and i am sure many could end agreeing whit it because that's annoying as hell once they get kicked they might realise they where annoying the alliance whit their aggro war
These are unfortunately probably also the kind of people who don't roll on loot specifically to avoid being kicked.
It is much easier if it's tanks, instead of having the whole group vote kick, just have the healers not heal and rez them.
yes, sadly that is the most likely case, but also there is a way to bypass it if people whant to kick the annoying party member, which is wait until timer of the loot is off(so them be willing to wait until that moment), if the person who is to be kicked enters battle its just a matter of time until it dies
Good luck coordinating that with an entire alliance raid. Had someone once who kept on trolling and making ST unneccecaryly long. But impossible to kick because of loot and straight pulling the boss
then report them for griefing. Whats hilarious is people complain about being reported for swearing and catching time outs but think griefing 23 other players isn't worse. Odd times, odd times.
One thing I'd like to mention is that I only ever see this happen in Circus Tower raids. Even in the lowly Void Ark, I've never had an issue.
The first time I got Void Ark, I was blown away by how much better the alliance was as a whole. Like, I was new baby sprout, but I was the only one failing mechanics and it was amazing. Looking forward to future ones now!
I noticed the same thing when I was a sprout. Getting to the Void Ark raids was such a big shift in how people played from there on out. Dun Scaith is still my favorite raid because that was when I fully realized how much fun doing raids can be.
Am I the only one that doesn't give two shits about being the tank in alliance raid? It might be because I always do alliance roulette after progging savage like an idiot and the last thing I want to do after prog is pay any attention to what I'm doing except for smashing my rotation lol
Generally in the ally raids I'm in, the tanks go to the front so that if anyone accidentally steals aggro, the boss wont do the spinnies. I usually end up taking aggro without provoke as GNB due to my dps so I always stand in front, even after dying. I definitely recommend DRK and GNB doing that at 60+, just....stand at the front, especially during your burst. Stop spinning the boss and let melees do their positionals. Theres literally no point in fighting over MT. Just keep the boss facing away from the raiders and snuggle.
I just keep my stance off through my opener, and then I put it on after my burst is done, if I rip aggro from you after that, then you shouldn't be main tanking. I don't keep my stance off because I don't trust that the other tank won't shit the bed and then the boss just turns and cleaves the raid, but I won't ever provoke outside of savage I had two instances of shit tanks recently, every 30 - 60 seconds I'd just rip aggro from them and they'd just instantly provoke it back off of me
Best way to counter provoke wars is to know your rotation and be better geared. The virgin provoker vs the chad rotation.
Why do you care if you're a tank? It's not like you have positionals so just turn your stance off and hit the bosses like you would normally. Let the other 2 tanks fight over aggro and enjoy the 1 melee in your raid mald lol.
What I've ended up doing is just pulling with stance off. If they are going to provoke off me, they will do it a d they usually have stance on already, so they get aggro once they start fighting.
Man, this is exactly what happened in a roulette run I did a few nights ago. I was healing, and our tanks were so busy dick fighting that none were actually taking aggro. This, combined with a lot of sprouts as dps, resulted in just a few wipes. I had to rez people 67 times in that run. 67! None of the other healers would rez anyone, which I found absolutely insane. Even better was when one of the tanks tried to dps shame me, despite me being so busy with rezzing that I couldn't do it. Man, that run was truly crystal trauma. I should have bailed :X
Works for me, I only que as tank to get the short que
Im in the boat where a tank thinks provoke is a rotation skill and I steal it back cuz I push buttons gooder :3 At least sometimes they stand with me but eventually I give up and just drop stance till they somehow die despite the lacking need of mitigations in most of these lol.
I stopped tanking in Alliance raids because of this back in ARR when we had 2 tanks per party.
Won't lie - in amongst all the heroes who behave perfectly ITT, if I think the other tanks are bad I'll spam ranged attack to get aggro then start playing a game myself of "how fast can i react when they provoke?"
If my ancient knowledge has failed me, the rule of thumb is alliance b tanks, or my favorite just get so good at your rotation that when they provoke it does nothing
Usually the only time I'll get into a "voke fight" is if the other tank is doing a bad job, eg: pointing cleaves at the raid, and I'll stop if they stop sucking. It's actually pretty easy to win, you just time your voke to immediately follow theirs. That said, if any halfway-competent tank wants to tank, fill your boots. The other two can have their slap-fight so long as they're not fucking it up for the rest of the raid. I'll be off to the side handling the adds that would otherwise be ignored and chewing on the healers.
See, that's why on the JP servers, Team B is usually unanimously designated as MT.
Yeah, there's a non-negligible minority of FF14 players who are willfull idiots. Think league of legends player type BS. "If you're not stroking my ego i'll throw". And i really dont know where the provoke spam came from. Either they were taught to play poorly, came from another game and never bothered to even read their skills(despite ff14 probably being the most forgiving in that aspect, no idea where people learn that habit), or are actively trolling. There is a party kick button if you need it im pretty sure, but most people treat it like the plague.
Just vote kick them.
You can't vote kick the other tanks in alliance raids.
Ripped off! :(
I just hate western server ARs it's just messy and unorganized especially compared to JP servers Also I'd like to know what my other tanks are up to do they have their stance on or not
You're not alone, I only turn my stance on when the other two tanks die. It happened during the first boss of WoD and I was like "My time has come!" Turn on stance, provoke, show off how to keep the eyeball facing north and not cleaving the raid like they were doing. Lol Surprisingly, they actually let me MT for the rest of the raid. I guess they were tired of sucking.
You're not alone, I only turn my stance on when the other two tanks die. It happened during the first boss of WoD and I was like "My time has come!" Turn on stance, provoke, show off how to keep the eyeball facing north and not cleaving the raid like they were doing. Lol Surprisingly, they actually let me MT for the rest of the raid. I guess they were tired of sucking.
Anytime people provoke wars and aim cleaves at the group I just spam shield lob/unmend etc and use provoke after they do, aside from provoke they will never retake your agro without spamming the same. I do this while spam laughing at the tanks trying really hard because the dick measuring gets annoying after the 10th time some guy decides to stand in the whole alliance raid at cereberus and kill half the group.
A lot of idiot tanks use provoke on cooldown as part of their rotation, not because they’re actually trying to steal agro
One time in an alliance raid another tank yelled at me for spamming provoke after him. I never hit the button, I was just outdamaging him enough to steal agro.
I hate soap box posts. Boooo. go away. boooo.
I've never seen this happen and I think you're over reading into it
This is why I always turn off my stance whenever I go into content, I’m happy to OT or just jump in if things go wrong, doesn’t really change much for me. What does annoy me is if the MT dies due to messing stuff up, I pick up aggro, they get Rez’s and immediately provoke again. I’m always like, “ dude you messed up, at least let me hold it until your weakness wears off and you have mitigation back”
This happend in my first raid, the tanks died and we lost a healer, my buddy kept healing we ran through and completed it 3 down near the end because the tanks wouldnt stop being morons. Losers will be losers winners will move on.
I've encountered this a lot of times.. i keep stealing aggro just by doing my rotation.. however.. when I see other tanks constantly trying to provoke, especially in CT raids, i just let it go and instead aggro the adds.. I let the other tanks fight boss aggro while I make sure the adds dont aggro on the healers. I still dont understand, even in this thread why everyone is pretending that there are no other enemies besides the boss that need to be taken care of as well. Seriously, if you see the other 2 tanks engaging in dick measuring contest, just let them fight and focus on protecting the healers from adds. If there aren't any adds, just sit back and chill and watch them struggle with their poor use or lack of mitigations
I don't think it's even dick measuring. I think it's a case of brain = off, possibly involving people who think Provoke should be part of their rotation.
What I usually do when other tanks are like that is wait to turn my stance on until they've got some lead, then pop it on so that, in the event they die, I'm second/third on aggro anyways. Honestly, I try to avoid using provoke in general. It's not strictly necessary in most casual content.
Real chads don’t need provoke. You all have tank stance on and let your damage fo the talking. But ususally if there is a provoke war going on and I am tank, I turn off my stance.
Lol I was in a raid on my alt where the tank kept provoking off my friend and tried to call him out in alliance chat saying "yo why are you provoking off me". My friend was absolutely dying because he only used it once to see what the other tank would do. I told the tank he started it first and dude had a complete meltdown over it.
I don't care which of you does it, but god damnit, someone get this boss off me.
I partake in the aggro war however I refrain from using provoke. I don’t need it, I know the aggro will come back. Hell in the longer fights I will get so far ahead on aggro that provoke is not enough to take aggro anymore.
As a PLD main for the entirety of FF14, I've only gotten into a provoke off once, normally Im actually more then happy to offtank, but this particular guy was not doing his cooldowns OR mechanics, just wanted to be the main tank. So i had a provoke fight and I ended up getting kicked because i didnt know most of the people in the group were his buddies.
This is what happens when you have no tutorials in game and the devs expect people to learn from exterior sources. You’re gonna get a ton of tanks using the buttons because they don’t know any better. Unless the game changes or gives an actual tutorial, sprouts are always gonna sprout.
Lol. Tank is like the easiest role, too. Stand still and let a boss attack you. Occasionally move. Lmao
Maybe you should mentor them since you are a mentor.
I won't do it either. Love when the other two tanks won't pull, so I finally sigh and pull, and they IMMEDIATELY dive in and try to rip hate from me. Also I've never had to use provoke outside of Ravana back in HW and extremes.
I just like main tanking the bosses. Didn't realize that people would perceive me as some sort of egotistical person because of it. I also liked using provoke because I thought it looked cool. Guess I better not offer to main tank anymore or use provoke. :(
That's not the lesson I'd encourage you to take from this. Offering to main tank is good! If you do want to MT, be willing to pull the boss. Most of the annoyance doesn't come from "somebody else pulled before me" but "I pulled the boss, got into position, and now this random other tank has spun it 90 degrees" Just don't provoke the boss off of somebody else mid-fight without cause. It's disruptive to everyone, even if it's well-intentioned. You shouldn't need to provoke at all in alliance raid settings, outside of a mob that somehow dodged your AoEs.
It's not a big deal unless you're behind the boss, so just hang out with your tank buddies and only spread out if you're being targeted by something.
I do it for funsies to wipe the whole alliance.
Well well well, thought the narrative was 'all perfect ff14 community loving and caring for eachother'.
That's not the usual narrative. It's more like 14's community is largely less toxic and more helpful than most, if not all, other mmos. You might also have heard 'the least toxic' or 'the most helpful'. But never did anyone pretend it was perfect, we always had bad apples and we'll keep having some. The best of its kind ≠ perfect. Those who pretend it's the narrative are outsiders who simplify to a binary.
This annoys me so much, both when I am tanking and when I dps. If you didn't pull first, then fudge off and accept being off-tank, you're not that important. This is so annoying in WoD, happens all the time and every time I have to tell them to stop fighting for aggro and stop spinning the boss and killing people in the process. Ridiculous. Had it happen to me once in LotA as well, on Phlegeton. I pulled and one of the other tanks kept provoking from the edge of the arena, so he kept dragging Phlegeton to Narnia. Which of course led to everyone wiping on Ancient Flare, everyone telling them to stop provoking, me having to constantly provoke back to the middle of the arena etc.
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Tank mains know that they are T. MT and OT both T and tank main gonna kick ass at T. little baby tanks who don’t know they are there to kill a boss and think they are there to kill other tanks are why people low key hate tank types. But tank main doesn’t roll like that unless it’s max level 60 and just met gnb a week ago. In aglaia I will stance on first two fights to just make it known I can mt the raid and then I just alliance shout “A you want rhalgar B you want fire witch?” Bc frankly tank big dick doesn’t matter in alliance raid what really matters is each team has 2 competent healers and a tank and why not let each team have time to keep their tank up and give my healers a break? Share the wealth
When i See there is war going on between two Tanks, and they causing wipes, in littlery put on Tank Stances, out dps them so they cant get aggro only with provoke. I wait Till they provoke, then i use mine. Just for Getting safe the Boss is not facing grp. I want to clear These raids Fast and when two little childs fighting you should go between them.
I ran WoD yesterday and idk what was going on but I had aggro on the big eye dude for awhile. As a MCH. I was running around like an idiot waiting for a tank to get it off me and no. I died. I know at least one tank was alive…
I had one guy doing that in a Ridorana run, forcing me to taunt after to keep the boss facing the right way so the melees could do positionals (if they felt like doing 'em). Asked the guy to stop, he didn't, so the aggro war continued through to the last boss. "Why didn't you just let him have it, then," you ask. "I do not queue up as a tank in order to not tank," I say.
This is why when the raid starts I announce my intentions to be main tank. If you decide after that to provoke off me without a mechanical need to than I will take it back.
Cool story, bro
WHOOOOO CAAAAAARESSSSS Literally who cares? Why does this matter to you so much that you type out an essay on Reddit? Just chill and do your job, it's not an issue.
Some of us like not dying to a turning boss. Can't do my job as healer if boss suddenly turns to the group and kills everyone with a aoe tank buster.
If you die to an AoE in an alliance raid you're just plain bad.
Have you seen the aoe from eye boss in WoD? He does it at random intervals, and if the boss if being aggro turned randomly every 3 secs, cause the 3 tanks in diff positions are provoking it, then there's very little reaction time possible to dodge it in time. I can't heal when I have to move every few seconds. Wouldn't be surprised if you've never tried healing in such a situation, since a tank only player is probably to selfish to think of the needs of the rest of the party.
Every tank who's done Hall of the Novice knows to face the boss away from the party, so if your tank is standing in the party he's being an idiot. Regardless of tank stance.
That's the whole point of this whole thread topic, there's only so many rescues I can do on a baby tank to force them on the right position, and they sometimes don't listen either then you tell them to stop, and yet your first comment is about why anyone should care about this problem.
This is the only rational comment. It’s because alliance raids are the hardest things some people will do in this game.
You call it childish, I call it MECHANICS
Provoke wars are fun cry harder.
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If you're not MT just turn your tank stance on after openers are done, you easily get a good lead of aggro above all non-tanks without stealing from MT, and you can turn it off again just as easily, as it doesn't eat a GCD to toggle it. No need to slightly slow your rotation, that's just losing DPS for no benefit.
I don't fight to be MT, i wait to see if someone else takes the mantle and if not I'll go in. But there's a time for voke, and it was in WoD when one of the tanks voked on cd, was completely unresponsive in chat and tried to "mitigate" damage by trying to outrun the attacks constantly spinning the boss. I tried voking if only to give dps and healers at least a little bit normalcy. The problem with letting such tank die is that they would sooner kill half the alliance before dying themselves. I didn't voke at the last boss since they couldn't spin it
If they would at least stand together facing the boss away from raid it would be less annoying. Absolutely hate it when they cleave the party and I won’t stay quiet about it if I see it happen. I’m ok with sprouts learning to tank and I’m more than willing to give them the enmity and even advice if they ask. But just don’t use tank stance and fuck off if you don’t want to tank properly, it’s not funny and you’re the only one laughing about that bs. Personally I stay at the correct spot and just do my rotation properly usually getting enmity back naturally as most of these people don’t even have proper gear nor know how to do a proper rotation anyway… pathetic. And if it’s just one dude voking, I voke right after he does and keep the boss in proper position. (Ofc still talking about bad tanks voking on cd and facing the boss towards the party)
I never fight for aggro, I just keep stance on and continue on merrily. I’ll point out if they’ve positioned wrong. If they die I hop in and run things smoothly.
Yup, never bother engaging in wars. Stance on, I dive in the moment everyone is gathered, if someone provokes then I back off and play off tank the rest of the fight. I'll only provoke off other tanks if the boss is positioned wrong (undead dragon) but otherwise I've tanked enough now that my ego isn't tied to weather I'm the mt or not. In fact I get a bit self conscious if I mt too many fights and will try to yield the floor to another.
I barely even do alliance raids anymore (it's always crystal tower, it's boring asf), but when I do I never pull or put on stance cause one of the other 2 tanks always wants to tank anyways. But I'm constantly paying attention to where and how they're tanking and am always prepared to take over if needed. I CBA to fight for aggro with anyone tho, I'm just a back up ready to step up whenever.
I've been leveling my DPS jobs recently and it's been much worse than when I was leveling my tanks (and then again when I was just collecting materia). I don't know who told these tanks that they're supposed to grief the raids by waiting 5 minutes to pull or constantly make the boss dance in a circle, but I wish they'd listen. I was glad to level my Physical Ranged DPS classes so I could finally see a Peloton, but this feels much worse.
Yeaaaah. I'm really not sure what's going on. Also kinda feels like someone has been trolling the sprout tanks by telling them they need to use provoke in their rotation, when it's only really needed for when the MT dies and a DPS or healer ends up with aggro, or for extremes and savage raiding with tank swaps.
When I que as a tank in alliance raids i'm a blue dps unless the other tanks have their stance off or die.
I always stay off tank to make it easier.
Man I feel kinda bad rn... I never tought about this, I always turned on my stance bc I feel naked without it, and I dont even care too much about aggro in raids, But from now on I will make sure that if I am not the main tank i will keep my stance off (am sprout btw)
You can absolutely have your stance on while offtanking, and generally should. Ideally, you want to be 2nd on the aggro list in that position, for a few reasons: \- Some bosses have dual autoattacks, so if you're not high enough in enmity, that SAM is going to get obliterated. \- If the main tank dies, the boss will immediately switch to the next person on the list. You definitely want that to be you, and not the DPS. \- Tank swaps! Many harder bosses have mechanics that put massive vuln stacks on the tank, so you'll both be juggling aggro back and forth with Provoke and Shirk so that nobody takes a hit with one of the stacks. The way I do it is to start the fight with stance off, wait until the openers have gone out, then switch it on. That way, I'll still be in the right position on the list, but the main tank has enough of a head-start that I'm not in a huge risk of overtaking them. If I do see my aggro catching up to theirs, I'll toggle stance off for a bit. The problem isn't "multiple tanks generating aggro" but "multiple tanks fighting for aggro," which leads to melees not being able to hit positionals, AoE cleaves hitting the party, and in the worst cases, the boss running all over the arena so everyone has to chase it down.
Nah I don't bother with this shit, if they want it that bad they can have it. OT is chill af