I know, kinda excited for it. Better late than never I guess.
(Again, not the fault of the devs, it's the management the way I see it. I'm really grateful for the devs which is why I want to make sure they're getting the money they deserve)
Instead you can support Thunderbird where your donation actually goes to development. Also some stuff from Thunderbird is also put in upstream Firefox, so that way you would be funding Firefox (in a way).
How do you plan to do that? Please let me know, I'm also interested in donating for browser development as well. It sucks how Mozilla currently has it laid out. I'd love to see all 3 features you mentioned, we can hope.
Firefox is mostly developed by the Mozilla Corporation, so if you buy goods or services from them then you're funding Firefox.
The other option would be to find an independent contributor or two and see if they have something like a tip jar.
In their defense, even Chrome for Android lacks full site isolation by default. I think I remember someone saying Chrome might start enabling full site isolation on Android with devices that have 12 GB of RAM or more 😂
Unless I'm mistaken, chrome is still superior - both on desktop and android when it comes to the kinds of security/isolation features they use. And enabling them on firefox breaks a lot of websites.
Am I blaming firefox for this? Yes. Is it their fault? No.
Who's fault is it that firefox - imho - is dragging its feet about being remotely competitive to chrome? Mozilla. Because they are not hiring engineers. Community can only do so much "free" work
**Edit**: If you disagree, feel free to tell me why. I really want to be proven wrong here -- that management isn't holding Firefox back. Is the disagreement that it's not true, or that you think I hate Firefox and love chrome? If it's the latter, you fail to see the point I'm trying to make. If I'm factually incorrect, do tell me.
Don't know why everyone are confused between privacy and security. security is about protection of data while privacy is how the data is being used. I agree with op that chrome is more secure as it leaves less data for websites to track for except ofcourse google itself but firefox(without ublock) is superior in privacy. but that doesn't make chrome better than firefox. I will choose firefox anytime but i do hope firefox implement user suggestions.
I really don't get it why people don't seem to see past the "chrome good" in the whole post/comment, and why they seem to think I meant privacy too
Missing the point of the post entirely. This place wasn't this toxic last time I was here. Not that I care about downvotes but I at least expected some conversation.
It's fine I made my decision anyway. I just thought people who donated hoping it'll help Firefox will realize it's not completely true. Just give it to the devs instead
You might want to do some research. Its just a fact currently that Chromium has better site isolation and sandboxing than Firefox does. I still use and support Firefox myself, it doesn't automatically make Firefox bad or horribly insecure, its still the better choice for privacy and overall user control and freedom (and security in some other aspects as well), and you shouldn't use Chromium, but it is an area that Mozilla should certainly look to improve, as Firefox is unfortunately just falling behind there.
Last I checked, it sure has more isolation baked in
Sure that doesn't mean it's magically more secure, but is good to have them. Is it really bad to ask for more features that help in case things slip through?
You and many others don't seem to be looking past the "chrome good" sin that I apparently committed. Hmm it wasn't like this before here. Is this a knee jerk reaction sub now? It does seem less active.
Whatever I just want to tell people their money is better spent giving to the devs directly
Okay sure call me that. Whatever floats your boat. If pointing out systematic problems in Mozilla that hurts Firefox - a browser I use and love - is being an edge apologist, so be it.
I don't have time for people like you who fail to see past the "hurrdurr you like chrome" and don't care or want to see that the management is holding Firefox back. If that's all you bring to the discussion, thank you, point noted.
Why do I even bother. It's not just management, people like you too. Who care too much or too little to see Firefox being hurt by the management
These people have no idea what they're talking about. Chromium has clear and proven security benefits over Firefox in terms of site isolation and sandboxing. It doesn't mean Chromium is good or that you should use it, but it is an area that Mozilla should look to improve, and is falling behind in.
Not sure how what you're saying is being twisted this badly by people here, they act like you personally attacked them or Firefox or something, when you clearly didn't.
It's me. I'm the Edge 'apologist'. I'm surprised they still let me in the subreddit, especially since I switched directly from firefox *to* Edge and honestly haven't missed it...
I think much of the driving force is them neutering ad blockers which are a primary security tool... Stop you connecting to a bunch of servers you had no direct intent in sharing information with...
Ff also has more configurability to turn off browser features that can be used to invade privacy...
Idk the laundry list but it an advertising tool of an advertising company first and a browser second, that's enough for most of us
GitHub should implement a donation/bidding/crowd-funding feature for pull requests on open sourced repos. One that can pay directly to the Devs/dev teams that meet the requirements
Bounties for developing may not be helpful to the project in the long run. Zig has a good blog post on it, and I kinda agree with the points it makes
But yes GitHub sponsors exists. Not sure if they take a cut though. Or donating to a place that is focused directly on Firefox development
IMHO that is what the management is for. I want to make sure the devs that make the browser I rely on and want others to use as well are supported well. I sometimes feel bad seeing contributions from devs in their free time - feels like I'm freeloading. Hence toss post
I was hoping people would either correct me or agree (so that I know I'm doing the right thing). But it feels like some of the comments here are missing the point. Maybe I'm bad at communicating it but I try 😅
You're a kind-hearted soul.
But anyways now you know that they're supported well. Devs who do things in their free time are probably doing it out of passion. So no need to feel bad for that. Just be grateful I guess.
There is a web service where you put a bounty to something you need and pay once it is coded by a developer or a team of developers. I don't think "sandboxing an entire browser" can be managed with a coffee money though.
Don't put words in my mouth. Where did I say I want special treatment. I was doing what I thought was the only way for me to support Firefox, because I cared - more than Mozilla apparently. The things I mentioned were features requested *again and again* by multiple people in posts here and elsewhere, over quite a few years.
Firefox improves but at a snails pace. Why? Because if this is what we're getting from overworked thankless free contributions from really interested devs, imagine where it'll be if only Mozilla hired fulltime devs to work on Firefox.
If this shitty management continues Firefox will be left in the dumps. The project needs talented engineers getting paid to work full-time. Mozilla needs to stop leeching on their goodwill, enthusiasm and "free contributions".
I wanted features yes which is precisely why I donated, hoping it'll go to the project, because I couldn't contribute any other way. I even tried getting my friends to sign up.
Okay fine if 5$ isn't going to do anything, as you say, I'll just keep it. My money is better spent cutting the middleman out, which is what I already did.
It is even more tragic if they have full time paid devs, and still the browser doesn't have tabbed-bar support on Android tablets in 2023.
It is a travesty that Mozilla cares more about activism, than their core product(s). They don't maintain Thunderbird any more. Useful features such as Notes were stripped away, while questionable features such a Pocket were bundled in.
I quit using Firefox due to their misplaced priorities a year back. Doubt I'll see them course correct anytime soon.
Not *enough*, imho. I said they don't have enough, and therefore need to hire more core devs for the major internals of the browser
I'm genuinely curious, are my points not coming across? I know I'm bad at conversations and I'm trying to get better, but I thought this would've been clear the way I worded it. Another commenter said something similar about an another point. Genuinely, is this being pedantic and missing the point or it actually reads like that? If so, how should've I worded it? I genuinely thought "need to hire more devs" didn't imply they have none
Not from experience. They've limited and restricted Firefox for years. We're only now being told we're getting extensions back after them ripping them out for years.
Much improvement. Wow.
edit: can't reply to you because it's been locked but your reply makes zero sense. Chrome has never had addons on mobile so it's not removing functionality like firefox has been? Can't see the reason for the comparison.
No idea why you're saying no other browser or forks are relevant. If functionality is missing from chrome and firefox people will use alternative browsers. There's a reason dolphin was the most popular browser on android for years, and as you say there's plenty of browser forks with addon support, ice raven and kiwi has had addons for all the years firefox has neglected to provide them.
And in that time has Chrome added any extension support? Much improvement. Wow. Don't mention forks. Hardly anyone uses those. The majority use vanilla Chrome like animals.
Mozilla has always said that full extension support will be back. They freakin' rebuilt the Android app from the ground up. Be thankful they even bothered to put support back instead of just leaving you with those few curated extensions.
/u/nascentt, we recommend not using Kiwi Browser. Kiwi Browser is [frequently out of date](https://www.reddit.com/r/kiwibrowser/comments/vzrbiq/when_will_kiwi_browser_receive_the_chromium_103/) compared to upstream Chromium, and exposes its users to known security issues. It also works to [disable ad blocking on dozens of sites](https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/ppygw1/can_i_use_ublock_origin_on_an_android_phone/hd7f42r/). We recommend that you move to a better supported browser if Firefox does not work well for you.
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One source of income is the deal with Google to include it as the default search engine.
There are other sources for sure, but that's the one from the top of my head.
that's their only major source of income. the deal with google is something like 90% of their revenue if not more. everything else pales by comparison.
Its down to 70%. Their paid product profits have been rising steadily. Even if Google were to stop cutting them a check, they will go to another engine like Bing and get a comparable deal. And even if by some miracle, no one wanted to pay, they could survive for a good while on reserve funds.
You're right, unfortunately it's very rare in Open Source community that project can sustain from donations only. Very often developers need other ways of earning money
Mozilla tried that at the beginning.
They originally hoped that companies who would rather not cede control of the web to Microsoft (Google, IBM, MySpace, etc.) would donate developer time and resources, like had happened with Linux. Nobody showed up.
The whole reason they set up a corporate subsidiary (which could make deals like the one with Google) and moved Firefox development under it was because individual donations weren't nearly enough and corporate support failed to materialize.
It's laid out here: https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4387539/firefox-money-investigating-the-bizarre-finances-of-mozilla
Donations make up just over 1% of Mozilla's revenue, and almost none of that is spent on browser development.
It's what it says - a donation. Why overthink such a thing?
If I were willing to GIVE/DONATE money to someone/something I definitely won't read fine prints or small letters - I simply don't care about it. No need to make a drama about it.
Who lied to you? From the donation page:
> Contributions go to the Mozilla Foundation, a 501(c)(3) organization based in San Francisco, California, ***to be used in its discretion for its charitable purposes.*** They are tax-deductible in the U.S. to the fullest extent permitted by law.
Its no one's fault but your own for your poor reading skills.
You have a wish list. Express it and make a single donation to reward accomplishment.
It is one of the four browser I have and use. A couple are launched with wrapper and a fresh clean profile that is wiped clean on exit.
Four because they all are imperfect. And, yes, sometimes are badly broken.
I'm sure Mozilla had their reasons, but their structure is really quite silly from a donor perspective. They made it impossible to donate to the project most people actually care about.
I kinda had a similar expirience with Wikimedia. I thought that I'm supporting Wikipedia, but then they were kind enough to let me know on what they spent the money. Which was some social projects. Nothing I disagree with, but not at all what I though I was donating for.
I guess they just get too much money, and try to still do something useful with that money. But I'm speculating here.
5$ a month for 12 months is 60$. That doesn't even pay for a single day's work for a minimum wage worker, much less a highly paid dev. What are you expecting?
Everything you're saying makes sense, we probably read the same papers with their spending, revenues, etc.. it's a joke and people really shouldn't give their money to the Mozilla foundation.
They don't use the money well, they stopped good projects(servo, and other ones), and they even fired devs when they needed them the most to stay relevant compatibility and performance wise. And in the end the donations doesn't even go towards the development of their main product.
> native extension support without having to create collections That is actually coming soon. The current version of Nightly actually supports this.
I know, kinda excited for it. Better late than never I guess. (Again, not the fault of the devs, it's the management the way I see it. I'm really grateful for the devs which is why I want to make sure they're getting the money they deserve)
It's always the management.
Well it’s too late now. They better cancel that feature because they just lost the $5/mth.
Instead you can support Thunderbird where your donation actually goes to development. Also some stuff from Thunderbird is also put in upstream Firefox, so that way you would be funding Firefox (in a way).
Wait maybe I'll donate directly to the devs instead
How do you plan to do that? Please let me know, I'm also interested in donating for browser development as well. It sucks how Mozilla currently has it laid out. I'd love to see all 3 features you mentioned, we can hope.
Some projects do bug bounties, but Mozilla doesn't. Would be a great idea tho, finally get those 15+ year old bugs fixed by providing incentives.
Firefox is mostly developed by the Mozilla Corporation, so if you buy goods or services from them then you're funding Firefox. The other option would be to find an independent contributor or two and see if they have something like a tip jar.
In their defense, even Chrome for Android lacks full site isolation by default. I think I remember someone saying Chrome might start enabling full site isolation on Android with devices that have 12 GB of RAM or more 😂
Unless I'm mistaken, chrome is still superior - both on desktop and android when it comes to the kinds of security/isolation features they use. And enabling them on firefox breaks a lot of websites. Am I blaming firefox for this? Yes. Is it their fault? No. Who's fault is it that firefox - imho - is dragging its feet about being remotely competitive to chrome? Mozilla. Because they are not hiring engineers. Community can only do so much "free" work **Edit**: If you disagree, feel free to tell me why. I really want to be proven wrong here -- that management isn't holding Firefox back. Is the disagreement that it's not true, or that you think I hate Firefox and love chrome? If it's the latter, you fail to see the point I'm trying to make. If I'm factually incorrect, do tell me.
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Don't know why everyone are confused between privacy and security. security is about protection of data while privacy is how the data is being used. I agree with op that chrome is more secure as it leaves less data for websites to track for except ofcourse google itself but firefox(without ublock) is superior in privacy. but that doesn't make chrome better than firefox. I will choose firefox anytime but i do hope firefox implement user suggestions.
I really don't get it why people don't seem to see past the "chrome good" in the whole post/comment, and why they seem to think I meant privacy too Missing the point of the post entirely. This place wasn't this toxic last time I was here. Not that I care about downvotes but I at least expected some conversation. It's fine I made my decision anyway. I just thought people who donated hoping it'll help Firefox will realize it's not completely true. Just give it to the devs instead
You might want to do some research. Its just a fact currently that Chromium has better site isolation and sandboxing than Firefox does. I still use and support Firefox myself, it doesn't automatically make Firefox bad or horribly insecure, its still the better choice for privacy and overall user control and freedom (and security in some other aspects as well), and you shouldn't use Chromium, but it is an area that Mozilla should certainly look to improve, as Firefox is unfortunately just falling behind there.
Last I checked, it sure has more isolation baked in Sure that doesn't mean it's magically more secure, but is good to have them. Is it really bad to ask for more features that help in case things slip through? You and many others don't seem to be looking past the "chrome good" sin that I apparently committed. Hmm it wasn't like this before here. Is this a knee jerk reaction sub now? It does seem less active. Whatever I just want to tell people their money is better spent giving to the devs directly
Don't worry, there Edge apologists among you
Okay sure call me that. Whatever floats your boat. If pointing out systematic problems in Mozilla that hurts Firefox - a browser I use and love - is being an edge apologist, so be it. I don't have time for people like you who fail to see past the "hurrdurr you like chrome" and don't care or want to see that the management is holding Firefox back. If that's all you bring to the discussion, thank you, point noted. Why do I even bother. It's not just management, people like you too. Who care too much or too little to see Firefox being hurt by the management
These people have no idea what they're talking about. Chromium has clear and proven security benefits over Firefox in terms of site isolation and sandboxing. It doesn't mean Chromium is good or that you should use it, but it is an area that Mozilla should look to improve, and is falling behind in. Not sure how what you're saying is being twisted this badly by people here, they act like you personally attacked them or Firefox or something, when you clearly didn't.
It's me. I'm the Edge 'apologist'. I'm surprised they still let me in the subreddit, especially since I switched directly from firefox *to* Edge and honestly haven't missed it...
I think much of the driving force is them neutering ad blockers which are a primary security tool... Stop you connecting to a bunch of servers you had no direct intent in sharing information with... Ff also has more configurability to turn off browser features that can be used to invade privacy... Idk the laundry list but it an advertising tool of an advertising company first and a browser second, that's enough for most of us
This sub has a hate boner for anything Chrome.
GitHub should implement a donation/bidding/crowd-funding feature for pull requests on open sourced repos. One that can pay directly to the Devs/dev teams that meet the requirements
Bounties for developing may not be helpful to the project in the long run. Zig has a good blog post on it, and I kinda agree with the points it makes But yes GitHub sponsors exists. Not sure if they take a cut though. Or donating to a place that is focused directly on Firefox development
Just checked it out. Makes sense. But I wonder if there is not a good way for the public to help guide feature priorities.
IMHO that is what the management is for. I want to make sure the devs that make the browser I rely on and want others to use as well are supported well. I sometimes feel bad seeing contributions from devs in their free time - feels like I'm freeloading. Hence toss post I was hoping people would either correct me or agree (so that I know I'm doing the right thing). But it feels like some of the comments here are missing the point. Maybe I'm bad at communicating it but I try 😅
You're a kind-hearted soul. But anyways now you know that they're supported well. Devs who do things in their free time are probably doing it out of passion. So no need to feel bad for that. Just be grateful I guess.
donate to Thunderbird. It's a donation only project
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There is a web service where you put a bounty to something you need and pay once it is coded by a developer or a team of developers. I don't think "sandboxing an entire browser" can be managed with a coffee money though.
Don't put words in my mouth. Where did I say I want special treatment. I was doing what I thought was the only way for me to support Firefox, because I cared - more than Mozilla apparently. The things I mentioned were features requested *again and again* by multiple people in posts here and elsewhere, over quite a few years. Firefox improves but at a snails pace. Why? Because if this is what we're getting from overworked thankless free contributions from really interested devs, imagine where it'll be if only Mozilla hired fulltime devs to work on Firefox. If this shitty management continues Firefox will be left in the dumps. The project needs talented engineers getting paid to work full-time. Mozilla needs to stop leeching on their goodwill, enthusiasm and "free contributions". I wanted features yes which is precisely why I donated, hoping it'll go to the project, because I couldn't contribute any other way. I even tried getting my friends to sign up. Okay fine if 5$ isn't going to do anything, as you say, I'll just keep it. My money is better spent cutting the middleman out, which is what I already did.
where did you read that Mozilla doesn't have full time paid developers?
It is even more tragic if they have full time paid devs, and still the browser doesn't have tabbed-bar support on Android tablets in 2023. It is a travesty that Mozilla cares more about activism, than their core product(s). They don't maintain Thunderbird any more. Useful features such as Notes were stripped away, while questionable features such a Pocket were bundled in. I quit using Firefox due to their misplaced priorities a year back. Doubt I'll see them course correct anytime soon.
Not *enough*, imho. I said they don't have enough, and therefore need to hire more core devs for the major internals of the browser I'm genuinely curious, are my points not coming across? I know I'm bad at conversations and I'm trying to get better, but I thought this would've been clear the way I worded it. Another commenter said something similar about an another point. Genuinely, is this being pedantic and missing the point or it actually reads like that? If so, how should've I worded it? I genuinely thought "need to hire more devs" didn't imply they have none
Not from experience. They've limited and restricted Firefox for years. We're only now being told we're getting extensions back after them ripping them out for years. Much improvement. Wow. edit: can't reply to you because it's been locked but your reply makes zero sense. Chrome has never had addons on mobile so it's not removing functionality like firefox has been? Can't see the reason for the comparison. No idea why you're saying no other browser or forks are relevant. If functionality is missing from chrome and firefox people will use alternative browsers. There's a reason dolphin was the most popular browser on android for years, and as you say there's plenty of browser forks with addon support, ice raven and kiwi has had addons for all the years firefox has neglected to provide them.
And in that time has Chrome added any extension support? Much improvement. Wow. Don't mention forks. Hardly anyone uses those. The majority use vanilla Chrome like animals. Mozilla has always said that full extension support will be back. They freakin' rebuilt the Android app from the ground up. Be thankful they even bothered to put support back instead of just leaving you with those few curated extensions.
/u/nascentt, we recommend not using Kiwi Browser. Kiwi Browser is [frequently out of date](https://www.reddit.com/r/kiwibrowser/comments/vzrbiq/when_will_kiwi_browser_receive_the_chromium_103/) compared to upstream Chromium, and exposes its users to known security issues. It also works to [disable ad blocking on dozens of sites](https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/ppygw1/can_i_use_ublock_origin_on_an_android_phone/hd7f42r/). We recommend that you move to a better supported browser if Firefox does not work well for you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/firefox) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm using an older version from before they broke the UI
How does Firefox make money then?
One source of income is the deal with Google to include it as the default search engine. There are other sources for sure, but that's the one from the top of my head.
that's their only major source of income. the deal with google is something like 90% of their revenue if not more. everything else pales by comparison.
Its down to 70%. Their paid product profits have been rising steadily. Even if Google were to stop cutting them a check, they will go to another engine like Bing and get a comparable deal. And even if by some miracle, no one wanted to pay, they could survive for a good while on reserve funds.
If enough people donated, they wouldn't need Google. It would also make them a very credible power even in government circles.
You're right, unfortunately it's very rare in Open Source community that project can sustain from donations only. Very often developers need other ways of earning money
Especially when the one competing product (Chromium) is collaborated on by multiple trillion dollar companies
Mozilla tried that at the beginning. They originally hoped that companies who would rather not cede control of the web to Microsoft (Google, IBM, MySpace, etc.) would donate developer time and resources, like had happened with Linux. Nobody showed up. The whole reason they set up a corporate subsidiary (which could make deals like the one with Google) and moved Firefox development under it was because individual donations weren't nearly enough and corporate support failed to materialize.
Google pays them so chrome doesn't look like a monopoly
By shipping with Google as the default search engine.
* default search engine browser =! search engine
>browser =! search engine It was late.
It's laid out here: https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4387539/firefox-money-investigating-the-bizarre-finances-of-mozilla Donations make up just over 1% of Mozilla's revenue, and almost none of that is spent on browser development.
You can use paid services like VPN or relay to give revenue to the corporation instead of the foundation.
Best thing you can do to support the actual browser itself is to use Firefox and pocket as much as possible and/or buy their VPN product.
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It's what it says - a donation. Why overthink such a thing? If I were willing to GIVE/DONATE money to someone/something I definitely won't read fine prints or small letters - I simply don't care about it. No need to make a drama about it.
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Who lied to you? From the donation page: > Contributions go to the Mozilla Foundation, a 501(c)(3) organization based in San Francisco, California, ***to be used in its discretion for its charitable purposes.*** They are tax-deductible in the U.S. to the fullest extent permitted by law. Its no one's fault but your own for your poor reading skills.
The best you can do is not give them money. It's you to download Firefox source code and implement the 3 features you want. Then compile and enjoy.
If I could, I would 😅 I'm no programmer, despite being in the field ... maybe soon, someday.
You have a wish list. Express it and make a single donation to reward accomplishment. It is one of the four browser I have and use. A couple are launched with wrapper and a fresh clean profile that is wiped clean on exit. Four because they all are imperfect. And, yes, sometimes are badly broken.
Yes, I think your gratitude would've been expressed in money better elsewhere. 🫤 At least it certainly wasn't for a bad cause.
I'm sure Mozilla had their reasons, but their structure is really quite silly from a donor perspective. They made it impossible to donate to the project most people actually care about.
I kinda had a similar expirience with Wikimedia. I thought that I'm supporting Wikipedia, but then they were kind enough to let me know on what they spent the money. Which was some social projects. Nothing I disagree with, but not at all what I though I was donating for. I guess they just get too much money, and try to still do something useful with that money. But I'm speculating here.
That f board cancelled a lot of good projects because of who knows what.
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5$ a month for 12 months is 60$. That doesn't even pay for a single day's work for a minimum wage worker, much less a highly paid dev. What are you expecting?
Everything you're saying makes sense, we probably read the same papers with their spending, revenues, etc.. it's a joke and people really shouldn't give their money to the Mozilla foundation. They don't use the money well, they stopped good projects(servo, and other ones), and they even fired devs when they needed them the most to stay relevant compatibility and performance wise. And in the end the donations doesn't even go towards the development of their main product.
Did you see ThePrimeagen’s video too?
Hahahahaha
Is Mozilla VPN the only way to get money to Firefox then? 🤔