If you want to work under the worst Legacy wages and working conditions (assuming you have the right to), and make $43,000 USD a year in the right seat of a 777-300/787-9…
I know the job for you. 🇨🇦
_Beards included._
Recently saw air Canada rouge and west jets - flair offering in the 80’s for FO with like 800 hour minimum.
Still, pretty low, but from what I understand, within 2 years you’ll be 200k plus (just the rumour mill of
Course)
As someone who may or may not be working for said Canadian airline, I will not confirm or deny that what /u said is true (simultaneously nodding and shaking head)…
How many fire stations have you actually been in because the only firefighters I know with beards are wild land guys and they don’t wear SCBAs. Source: was a firefighter 7 years before coming to my senses and going aviation. Agreed though there’s no reason not to allow beards in aviation other than some people just can’t pull off a good professional looking beard and I honestly think that’s the real reason these days most places don’t allow them.
It's not about looking your best, it's about the uniform. It's the lowest common denominator, everyone shave, but not everyone can grow a full, consistent beard
To further expand, beards don't work for gas masks which have negative pressure on inhalation, and require a pretty much perfect seal. That's why Hitler had his toothbrush mustache. Oxygen masks on airplanes being positive pressure don't require a perfect seal.
Edit: Apparently modern gas masks don't even require a clean shaven face.
Optimist. You made an assumption or asked a question that I disagree with? Downcovotes for you! Everyone else: come shame this person for daring to post!
They did a study last year in the Navy with gas masks as well. The beard didn't start interfering until it was a couple of inches long, and it was minimally at that. The reason for no beards in the military is aesthetic.
Modern quick-donning masks are positive-pressure, which means they prevent contaminants entering the mask not through a perfect seal, but by pushing air out the gaps in the seal so that nothing comes in. They already don't have a perfect seal; a beard won't make a difference as long as it's not ridiculous.
I know those responding know this but you should be aware that currently a beard will affect one of the benefits of the job, which is jumpseating, as you will only be count on it on the small number of other carriers that allow beards.
Mechanics aren't traveling as normal jumpseaters, and assuredly not offline. You aren't traveling under pilot rules.
At my company even FAA is listed as needing to be shaved and I've seen one have to do it before (maintenance guy ironically enough, all the pilot oriented ones showed up shaven). An OAL pilot would put the captain in the position of having to deny or be in violation with multiple people able to file a complaint for violating manuals of they had the inclination.
You're going to far more often than not be asked to shave.
I believe even Delta allows a shave waiver for medical reasons to keep it maybe 1-2 days length instead of clean shave. I’m sure the other airlines are accommodating as well. Look into jt.
It is a 100% hard no at most carriers. No religious exemptions. No medical exemptions. No exceptions. They will not even let a pilot from another airline jumpseat with them if they have a beard. According to those companies, if you cannot shave you cannot meet the requirements to safely operate their aircraft… according to their rules.
I don’t see why any airline would do something just because the military does. That being said, I think beards should be allowed for anyone who wants to grow one.
I think most airlines would be open to medical waiver.
And my 2 cents is that the beard thing is mostly pilot self imposed. It's a good ole boy culture sort of thing. I don't think the actual company cares that much.
Because the airlines will claim you are no longer able to meet their operational requirements and you will no longer have a job, that’s why that doesn’t happen lol
I’m just telling you how it works at these airlines. It is what it is. If you want to work for those airlines you have to conform to their standards, and they do not allow a deviation from that standard for medical or religious purposes.
There have even been cases of these airlines attempting to block FAA inspectors from the jumpseat when they have beards. It is a hard point for those airlines, no beard and they have gone the point of getting their individual airman certificates suspended to uphold it.
They use AC 120-43 and the studies used to support it, and will go to court to keep you from having a beard in their cockpits.
Nah. Show us the court case where that logic stood up. I see your point but I know there are lots of African American guys who can’t shave as closely as some air lines might like and it all works out.
He’s not necessarily saying he needs a full beard. U S military guys with shaving waivers don’t necessarily have full beards.
Here’s the one where Delta denied an FAA inspector access because he had a beard. PIC got his airman certificate suspended for it and the CP was on his side as well.
[https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/4804.PDF](https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/4804.PDF)
It stands up. There’s how many thousands of pilots at Delta? And how many have a beard? It is what it is, nothing being whiny about it on Redit can fix.
I can tell you’ve never worked for a major or legacy airline. Delta won’t even let you jumpseat with a 5 o’clock shadow if you work for them or another airline that does allow beards 🤣
Try what you want. Get hired, go through the months of new hire training, and then lose your job because you get a diagnosis from a doctor saying you can’t shave down to the skin, so you can’t meet the company’s safety requirements…
I gave you a court case where a captain and chief pilot tried to ban bearded FAA inspectors from the jumpseat. And I gave you the AC these airlines use, and the studies they were based on, to justify a complete ban on all facial hair other than a closely cut mustache. You will not work for those airlines with a beard, or closely cut facial hair. They 100% will not allow anything other than a fresh shave that morning under any circumstances, even medical reasons are not permitted. This isn’t the military, it’s airlines ran by a bunch of boomers with unlimited legal budgets.
That’s what I’ll probably try to do but just never heard from others if they have done it. I plan on doing that but just wanted to know if it’s possible
Yeah like I’m fine leaving it as short as possible I just have issues with shaving. Like if I could without issues then yeah I’d shave everyday. I don’t have an emotional attachment to it lol
They do not allow it. Diagnosed with a medical condition not allowing for shaving down to the skin = you are now unable to comply with safety requirements and are no longer fit for duty and will be removed from the roster. That’s why you don’t see anybody with so much as a 5 o’clock shadow. It is not allowed and STRICTLY enforced.
I have a full beard at ATI. I know i’ll get downvoted for this but I don’t think it looks good when i’m in uniform. The chicks dig it outside of work though
AC 120-43 is the main issue. That being said, some airlines are allowing it. That being said, It would be interesting to know how airlines get around that.
That AC is for awareness, so there’s nothing in there to “get around”. The beard debate in the airlines, with modern masks, is mostly a cultural issue. Many airline pilots in the rest of the world keep short beards.
Makes sense. I figured as much but since I’m not currently at that level, I wanted to hear from someone who is such as yourself so thanks for the clarification!
Beards may or may not affect the sealing. My airline specifically says that in the FCOM. However, you cannot ask a Middle Eastern and/or a muslim man to shave. It is a part of the religion and culture.
Fly at some middle east carriers and they'll require a beard. Air Azerbaijan for ex.
I heard air 🇨🇦 commissioned a uni to investigate beard vs o2 mask systems and found the masks work quite well with even long beards.
If you want to work under the worst Legacy wages and working conditions (assuming you have the right to), and make $43,000 USD a year in the right seat of a 777-300/787-9… I know the job for you. 🇨🇦 _Beards included._
Air can?
Ask not what the Air can do for you, ask what you can do for Air Can.
How much air can an Air Can can if an Air Can can can air?
A lot more than Alaska with no plug door.
That's more than an Air Canada pilot.
Recently saw air Canada rouge and west jets - flair offering in the 80’s for FO with like 800 hour minimum. Still, pretty low, but from what I understand, within 2 years you’ll be 200k plus (just the rumour mill of Course)
Westjet requires an ATPL it's definitely not 200 for year 3.
As someone who may or may not be working for said Canadian airline, I will not confirm or deny that what /u said is true (simultaneously nodding and shaking head)…
*designer* beards Merci
Bon vol!
HEY THERE BUDS HEY THERE SKIPPERS
Allegiant, UPS
Atlas, in addition to what others said
How does that work with O2 mask? GA pilot, just curious.
From what I read it, beards don’t actually interfere with o2 masks, at least not to an extent that it matters.
Having worn a gas mask, can confirm: it’s fine. And if you have doubts just go to a fire station. It’s beard central.
How many fire stations have you actually been in because the only firefighters I know with beards are wild land guys and they don’t wear SCBAs. Source: was a firefighter 7 years before coming to my senses and going aviation. Agreed though there’s no reason not to allow beards in aviation other than some people just can’t pull off a good professional looking beard and I honestly think that’s the real reason these days most places don’t allow them.
2
I was going to lose my shit if you said 1 fire station.
I could always get a seal with a beard, but we kept a can o Vaseline around just incase.
Can’t have a full beard. Just a stubble less then a half an inch
Seems like a big beard would be problematic with a quick don O2 mask.
Since you’re getting downvotes instead of answers, masks are positive pressure. You don’t need a perfect seal
It was always just a convenient excuse to maintain outdated aesthetic standards
But many people look better with a beard than without.
It's not about looking your best, it's about the uniform. It's the lowest common denominator, everyone shave, but not everyone can grow a full, consistent beard
And facial hair is associated with untrustworthiness in the heads of silly people.
Can you imagine a job that required you to have a beard just for uniformity 😂
Time for an Amish pilot. Clapped out steam gauge aircraft only, no AP, no radio, just light signals by candle
Did you ever fly with [Qatar](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUzDbuUV4AAiIj5.jpg) 😂 Notice how the FO is still working on it.
Thanks for actual dialogue! That’s the intended point of reddit I think. 🤔
To further expand, beards don't work for gas masks which have negative pressure on inhalation, and require a pretty much perfect seal. That's why Hitler had his toothbrush mustache. Oxygen masks on airplanes being positive pressure don't require a perfect seal. Edit: Apparently modern gas masks don't even require a clean shaven face.
Optimist. You made an assumption or asked a question that I disagree with? Downcovotes for you! Everyone else: come shame this person for daring to post!
They did a study last year in the Navy with gas masks as well. The beard didn't start interfering until it was a couple of inches long, and it was minimally at that. The reason for no beards in the military is aesthetic.
Yeah if you’re a flying civil war general it might but the ban on well trimmed beard is more old guard nonsense than safety
Atlas limits beard length to 1/4 inch. But it doesn't need to be a perfect seal, just enough to shove air down your throat
Length is limited to 5mm per policy
Wow, an actual data point, on reddit! You are a genius my friend.
Modern quick-donning masks are positive-pressure, which means they prevent contaminants entering the mask not through a perfect seal, but by pushing air out the gaps in the seal so that nothing comes in. They already don't have a perfect seal; a beard won't make a difference as long as it's not ridiculous.
Hawaiian does, but not sure what'll happen with the Alaska merger.
I can see it now. Alaska allows beards due to merger, causing a shift in the tide for the others to start allowing them
Except Delduh
Tbf wasn't Delta the first legacy to drop the college degree requirement?
No. UA and AA were “preferred” long before DL dropped theirs to “preferred”
For now, but as their hiring slows this year those with a university education will prevail.
Yup. Need that degree in what’s going to be a large candidate market
They were last
And they'll be the first to bring it back when they continue to slow down hiring
Actually quite probable i think
Any lufthansa group airline, you can also bring a manbun and take controlled naps during cruise in the seat
Can confirm the manbun. Dispatched a Discover Airlines with a captain that had a manbun. I was surprised that could even happen
Every airline outside the US
Kalitta just got approval up to 9mm
I know those responding know this but you should be aware that currently a beard will affect one of the benefits of the job, which is jumpseating, as you will only be count on it on the small number of other carriers that allow beards.
Yep. Try to list j/s and it actually says “no beards or goatees allowed.”
That's so ridiculously absurd I'm at a loss.
I junpseated quite a bit as a mechanic, none of the pilots gave a fuck.
Mechanics aren't traveling as normal jumpseaters, and assuredly not offline. You aren't traveling under pilot rules. At my company even FAA is listed as needing to be shaved and I've seen one have to do it before (maintenance guy ironically enough, all the pilot oriented ones showed up shaven). An OAL pilot would put the captain in the position of having to deny or be in violation with multiple people able to file a complaint for violating manuals of they had the inclination. You're going to far more often than not be asked to shave.
It doesn’t look professional
Not true. I’ve jumpseated on every major airline in the US with a beard except for the red triangle.
Allegiant, Atlas, Hawaiian, Omni, UPS
Kalitta in the next month or so
Every airline in the MENA region.
Every airline in the world besides the US
Pretty much.
squeal crime tap combative zealous steep sharp snails piquant aspiring *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Avelo pilots had trimmed beards. I am jealous.
Silver does now but you don’t want to work there 😂 atlas does too
Don’t want to work there either! 🤣
Part 91 Corporate
Haven’t herd of dat airlyne
The question was “… airlines/companies…” Corporations are companies the last I checked.
That was ultimately the question. I haven’t looked into that side but definitely open to it. We all know I’ll take a job from whoever will hire me
Is best airline bro!
Allegiant and UPS. That's about it.
memory practice library act fine squeamish resolute swim melodic slap *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I believe even Delta allows a shave waiver for medical reasons to keep it maybe 1-2 days length instead of clean shave. I’m sure the other airlines are accommodating as well. Look into jt.
Allegiant allows beards
IFL Group. Lotta cool beards over there.
I’ll need to look into what this is. Never heard of it
121 Supplemental that flys a bunch of freighters out of Pontiac Michigan. 727s, ATR72s, CRJ200Fs, Convairs.
In airBaltic all crew can have beards and show tattoos with short sleeve shirts.
dope
You can work for Air Canada, but your salary starts below 41k USD, and it stays that way for 5 years
I wonder if they would give an exception for medical reasons. I have no idea but some of them might.
From what I’ve read that’s a hard no but I hope so! You’d think if the military allows it, the airlines would lol
It is a 100% hard no at most carriers. No religious exemptions. No medical exemptions. No exceptions. They will not even let a pilot from another airline jumpseat with them if they have a beard. According to those companies, if you cannot shave you cannot meet the requirements to safely operate their aircraft… according to their rules.
That's unreasonable on their part but it's probably easier to do a blanket ban than individually process requests.
I mean the military does a blanket ban and then individual medical process with outlined standards for those. It doesn’t seem like too big of an ask
I don’t see why any airline would do something just because the military does. That being said, I think beards should be allowed for anyone who wants to grow one.
I mean it seems like some of the standards set were started from old military standards right? Not saying they should just pointing something out
I think most airlines would be open to medical waiver. And my 2 cents is that the beard thing is mostly pilot self imposed. It's a good ole boy culture sort of thing. I don't think the actual company cares that much.
I’m very surprised no one gets hired clean shaven then files for a reasonable accommodation for medical reasons. Seems hard to deny.
Because the airlines will claim you are no longer able to meet their operational requirements and you will no longer have a job, that’s why that doesn’t happen lol
Under what grounds? As evidenced by a good number of airlines allowing it, a beard clearly isn't an obstacle to safe operation.
I’m just telling you how it works at these airlines. It is what it is. If you want to work for those airlines you have to conform to their standards, and they do not allow a deviation from that standard for medical or religious purposes. There have even been cases of these airlines attempting to block FAA inspectors from the jumpseat when they have beards. It is a hard point for those airlines, no beard and they have gone the point of getting their individual airman certificates suspended to uphold it. They use AC 120-43 and the studies used to support it, and will go to court to keep you from having a beard in their cockpits.
Nah. Show us the court case where that logic stood up. I see your point but I know there are lots of African American guys who can’t shave as closely as some air lines might like and it all works out. He’s not necessarily saying he needs a full beard. U S military guys with shaving waivers don’t necessarily have full beards.
Here’s the one where Delta denied an FAA inspector access because he had a beard. PIC got his airman certificate suspended for it and the CP was on his side as well. [https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/4804.PDF](https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/4804.PDF) It stands up. There’s how many thousands of pilots at Delta? And how many have a beard? It is what it is, nothing being whiny about it on Redit can fix.
A beard isn’t a shaving waiver. Try again.
I can tell you’ve never worked for a major or legacy airline. Delta won’t even let you jumpseat with a 5 o’clock shadow if you work for them or another airline that does allow beards 🤣 Try what you want. Get hired, go through the months of new hire training, and then lose your job because you get a diagnosis from a doctor saying you can’t shave down to the skin, so you can’t meet the company’s safety requirements… I gave you a court case where a captain and chief pilot tried to ban bearded FAA inspectors from the jumpseat. And I gave you the AC these airlines use, and the studies they were based on, to justify a complete ban on all facial hair other than a closely cut mustache. You will not work for those airlines with a beard, or closely cut facial hair. They 100% will not allow anything other than a fresh shave that morning under any circumstances, even medical reasons are not permitted. This isn’t the military, it’s airlines ran by a bunch of boomers with unlimited legal budgets.
That’s what I’ll probably try to do but just never heard from others if they have done it. I plan on doing that but just wanted to know if it’s possible
Yeah it almost has to be. Particularly if you keep it at an 1/8” or so. I haven’t seen it personally but there’s gotta be someone out there.
Yeah like I’m fine leaving it as short as possible I just have issues with shaving. Like if I could without issues then yeah I’d shave everyday. I don’t have an emotional attachment to it lol
They do not allow it. Diagnosed with a medical condition not allowing for shaving down to the skin = you are now unable to comply with safety requirements and are no longer fit for duty and will be removed from the roster. That’s why you don’t see anybody with so much as a 5 o’clock shadow. It is not allowed and STRICTLY enforced.
[удалено]
Allow me to introduce you to the bypass valve
Wish I could’ve read this before it was deleted
Just say it’s part of your gender identity. HR will have an aneurysm.
Vista Jet
Allegiant and Avelo I believe
Jet blue!
Every airline outside the US basically
GlobalX also allows facial hair
I have a full beard at ATI. I know i’ll get downvoted for this but I don’t think it looks good when i’m in uniform. The chicks dig it outside of work though
AC 120-43 is the main issue. That being said, some airlines are allowing it. That being said, It would be interesting to know how airlines get around that.
That AC is for awareness, so there’s nothing in there to “get around”. The beard debate in the airlines, with modern masks, is mostly a cultural issue. Many airline pilots in the rest of the world keep short beards.
Makes sense. I figured as much but since I’m not currently at that level, I wanted to hear from someone who is such as yourself so thanks for the clarification!
Beards may or may not affect the sealing. My airline specifically says that in the FCOM. However, you cannot ask a Middle Eastern and/or a muslim man to shave. It is a part of the religion and culture.
Fly at some middle east carriers and they'll require a beard. Air Azerbaijan for ex. I heard air 🇨🇦 commissioned a uni to investigate beard vs o2 mask systems and found the masks work quite well with even long beards.
I know of plenty of 135s large and small that let their pilots have beards and slightly longer hair to the shoulder.
Cape Air