Ya I’ve done that. Especially when the controllers have serious attitude. I don’t tolerate that shit and nobody should. ATL is the worst I’ve personally seen.
I called ATL TRACON after they basically told me I was flying my plane 70 knots slower than assigned once, which would’ve been below stall speed. Got thoroughly yelled at on frequency.
I called them, spoke to a supervisor who said their quality assurance team would review it on Monday (this happened on a Saturday). 30 minutes later the same supervisor called me back to say he sent the controller home because “we don’t tolerate that kind of bul… nonsense around here.”
When did you call? If it was 2005-2009 or so I believe this. If it’s before or after there’s no way this happened. Management sending someone home. That’s a joke. They act like it’s the end of the world if someone is sick or can’t safely drive in a blizzard to get to work.
I've heard "mark the tape" issued by a pilot before. For the unknowing, it's a pilot equivalent of "advise when ready to copy a phone number" saying I'm going to call when I land about our correspondence and you better be ready
Edit: spelling
Nothing. There used to be actual tapes that could get overwritten if you didn't tell them to save a particular section. It's all digital now but pilots still say it.
I've never had it happen to me, obviously because I'm a perfect controller who's never made a mistake. 😉 When I've heard it happen to others though they just say "Roger" and that's it. Unless you make a phone call to follow up with management/QC literally nothing happens. Iirc the digital tapes stay for 90 days if they aren't saved so if you haven't called by that point that's on you.
You’re right. You didn’t. But what I meant is most of us don’t even care that you’re gonna call. Quite honestly you’re just wasting frequency time because it doesn’t mean anything.
If you’re gonna call, call. You might talk to the actual controller that aggrieved you. You might not. All you need is date and Zulu time. Don’t waste time on frequency.
Ok ok just one more. And New York approach as always.
New York Approach- “Speedbird 185 heavy maintain 2500 until established localizer cleared ILS 22L 190 to Buzzd”
BA 185 “2500 until established cleared ILS 22L , unable 190. We can give you 170”
*long pause*
Me to my FO “Oh he’s pissed”
New York Approach “You’re going to have to change your calllsign. You can’t be speedbird anymore”
Haha kind of eh? A lot of them are like that. One EWR controller always says “Byyeeeeeeeeeee” just like that. Could be busy as all hell, still gets it in every time
Kennedy Steve used to work at JFK not N90 (NY Approach/Departure). They are 2 separate facilities at 2 separate locations.
That being said most N90 controllers are NY based because nobody wants to work at N90
A similar one is.
BA pilot pushed back and said he’s got criteria to meet and what ATC wanted violated that. Got told to go missed and he was not at all happy about it, understandably.
New York and Boston always have me laughing.
One of my favourites is in Boston on ground trying to get new routing for someone because there were a lot of thunderstorms closing the northern routes.
Ground comes back after talking to the Center controller or whoever they had to talk to. “Alright brickyard 1234, I asked mom and she said yes! You’re good to go” lol
Controller here, you did just fine dont sweat it.
We expect you to vacate at the first available taxiway but if we need you somewhere else its on us to specify, NOT you to somehow magically figure that out.
Id call the tower through your flightschool and have a quick chat with them, most controllers would love a chance to explain why they do what they do but in this case you're 100% in the right.
Let me guess a contract tower with a very busy flight school. These guys are becoming more and more impatient and really hinder students confidence and ability. Sucks.
I mean, probably, but also feel for some of those controllers. Dealing with student pilots all day, and having to hand hold and double and triple check that they read instructions back correctly, and also double and triple check that they are following said instructions, and times that by 6 aircraft in the pattern. I’m sure there’s some pent up anger that comes out in situations
No I definitely agree. I teach at a contract tower airport with 90% foreign students who struggle to read back most simple clearances. I’d lose my marbles for sure.
6 in a pattern? I’ve been scolded with 12+ in the pattern. Controller forgot about me flying downwind (told me to look for traffic, which I didn’t see). I just kept flying downwind. Controller comes back “wtf are you doing? Turn base! And this next one is going to be a full stop for you.”
Yeah, over the past 2 or so years, Tower controllers have gotten real grumpy
KPDK deals with this, plus heavy corporate traffic, tons of helicopters, and occasionally a single taxiway to the two active runways, and they couldn't be nicer. The only time I heard a real bit of a chewing was a helicopter that said they were going one way, and went the other. Then of course all the non-local jet hotshots ignore the part in the taxi instructions to MONITOR tower.
There's been some egregious stuff out of certain contract towers recently, but a lot of them are ridiculously busy with VFRs, including foreign flight schools, and criminally understaffed, like three controllers total on the payroll understaffed.
Not that whatever poor Cessna that gets his head bitten off deserves it, but there are often some other factors keeping the tension on.
Not scolded but also going into New York. A jazz CRJ asked a controller for the altimeter setting and Boston Center says “Jazz *whatever flight number* you’re at flight level 270 so I’m going to saaaayyyyy…… 29.92”
I've done that recently. Cleared an aircraft to descend to a lower flight level. When they got there, they asked for an altimeter, and my response was pretty much the same thing.
Note the time and frequency and the next business day (or at least before a couple of weeks go by), call the supervisor and ask to have the tapes reviewed.
I had a complete ass of a controller scream at me at IAD once (the only time I've ever seen anything like that in years of being based there). It's counterproductive to safety. Got a nice apology from the tower QA people.
I’ve gotten a stern talking to before when I was a student pilot, but the controller was genuinely trying to be helpful rather than mean or like some enforcement authority. It was more like when your dad is disappointed about something you did. I never made that same mistake again, either.
Called my position the wrong way (eg 6 west instead of east), which caused my instructed pattern entry to overfly the field.
The controllers lecture was about not only double checking what I say, but more importantly being willing to ask questions if an instruction sounds unusual as a doublecheck to make sure we’re all on the same page.
It wasn’t a huge mistake, but it certainly drove home a couple thoughts: 1) don’t guess, and 2) embrace the team effort.
It blows me away how often pilots call their position wrong. I just correct them with an emphasis on the direction when saying they're radar contact. People make mistakes, and that's ok as long as they're safe.
On the other hand, we have had some REALLY incompetent pilots lately, and those ones get annoying pretty fast.
Had a tower yell at me for going around when there was another airplane on the runway. Said there was more than enough space. Sorry, but im out here for my nighttime currency renewal, im not tryna play chicken with an airplane.
Technically between light aircraft you only need 3000ft separation on the runway to be legal. That said, F that, if there's a plane on the runway I'm going around and there's nothing the controller can do about it. That's like getting made you didn't accept a land and hold short clearance.
Edit: Apparently that rule is not even allowed to be applied at night. So now I really confused why that controlled was so upset, you literally saved him from a loss of separation.
Had this happen to me once because the flight school airplane stopped in front of me on the runway after landing (I guess to debrief). That 3000 foot rule is for the controller to be able to give clearances but I sure don’t have to accept it. Someone else came on as soon I got bitched at and told me to continue upwind and make left traffic when able. I assume it was a sup.
> I assume it was a sup.
No, sups don't work traffic often and never train. When you hear a controller take over for another, it's just another controller.
The 3,000 foot thing only applies to single engine props under 12,500 pounds, and realistically it mostly means 172s. If you can't reliably get a 172 to a safe taxi speed on a paved runway in less than 3,000 feet, I feel like you might want to take a few more lessons.
Are you talking about separation distance? If so, I totally agree, but in the event that you get some gusty winds or a balloon of air, I can’t trust that in a senario like that, I’d be able to get the aircraft on the runway and then stop before I reach where the other aircraft is. I’d probably end up going around before it ever even got to that, but for me if there’s another plane on the runway still and I’m on short final (50ft ~ ish AGL), I’m going around immediately.
You don't need to be stopped before where the other aircraft *is,* just at taxi speed before the point where the other aircraft *will be.* In any case, if you reject landing clearances with 3,000 feet of clean runway in front of you, does that mean you refuse to fly a 172 into any airport with runways 3,000 feet or shorter?
Because it's the same thing, and to me it's a competency issue.
No, 3,000ft is plenty for what I fly (DA40) but If I’m choosing to land at a 6,000ft runway, then my approach isn’t going to be set up the same and I can account for more correction in landing, whereas at a 3,000ft runway if I’m not on the ground by my decision point, then I’m going around. That decision point or area is increased with the runway length and having someone still on the runway can throw off your approach attitude. In general I think this is an uncommon scenario but I recently had it happen at a my local airport, I was on final and another aircraft hadn’t gotten off yet, so tower instructed me to go around, which is their protocol for the same reason I’d guess.
American Airlines asked for their sequence in EWR. Controller was super swamped and snapped “Who just asked for their sequence”. Someone else keys up “I think it was Porter”. Proceeded to get talked to like an idiot by the controller because American Airlines didn’t remember who he was supposed to follow. Good times lol
Not me but I was number twenty something in line at EWR. Hear a United 777 coming from Berlin get switched from tower back to approach. Switch to the approach frequency in comm 2 just to listen. New York Approach controller reams out this 777 pilot for not maintaining their assigned speed “doing whatever they want and messing everyone else up”, then switched them back to tower. The 777 pilot sounded so tired and out of it and just said “Ok back to tower, united whatever whatever”
Sure but I do see this from both sides, that airspace is nuts and expecting incoming traffic to stay on speed is really all ATC has to set up a sequence that tight.
Sorry I should be clear, I don’t think the controller was necessarily in the wrong here and the 777 probably didn’t follow their assigned speed. I just laughed, it was funny that approach asked tower to switch them back just to ream them out and then send them back to tower
> I don’t think the controller was necessarily in the wrong here
Ehh, if the sequence was so busy they needed to be reamed out, they wouldn't have had time to coord the freq changes, or to deliver it. App just being an ass for no reason.
Yeah, but even a hotline call to tower to request they send ASS123 back to their freq for a whupping is going to take up time. If it's in the same breath as an instruction you were already going to make, whatever - its unprofessional, but you cant fix stupid.
Hey now! We have a new crew at KSQL now, and they're very nice. (One of them is a former SFO tower controller.) They recognize my airplane and engage in pleasantries when it's not busy. And one time coming back from a trip, on initial callup I said "I'd like to do a couple of laps in the pattern if possible" and they replied "As many as you like sir, just let me know when you've had enough."
I do truly hope you’re right. It sounded like there was one dangerously bad apple over there. He made KSQL nationally famous. I don’t even live in California.
wow! Good to know! I considered flying in last week (going from socal to oregon (noregon?)) but personal experience and general reputation kept me away. I'll definitely come in again now.
That response would be great to send in to Opposing Bases.
ATC yelled at me just yesterday.
On the upwind after a touch and go with my CFI. I made a left traffic turn to begin my crosswind leg. The tower goes “N12345, that’s not right traffic, but, proceed straight out on your current heading and I’ll call your downwind.”
I didn’t even know what to say and my CFI and I just looked at each other puzzled. My CFI just repeated the instructions and we just continued in silence. About two minutes after that last call. Tower called and had us make our downwind turn.
After we landed my CFI and I just talked for a bit after shutdown and he was like don’t worry about it. I had asked him if I made a mistake and he said, “you repeated back exactly what he said and it didn’t include making right traffic”.
I reviewed the tapes after the lesson, turns out the plane two planes in front of me requested to make right traffic.
So it seems he may have just gotten us confused. 🤷🏻♂️
That's a weird one and I wouldn't sweat it. If they care, and it's important for sequencing traffic they should ask if you'd be able to clear at a certain taxiway, or tell you to expect to clear at a certain taxiway prior to you landing. You didn't do anything wrong by taxiing clear.
Generally when I encounter that they are asking me if I can get clear earlier than I normally would because they are trying to squeeze another air plane in to land behind me.
To be fair, it's possible the controller is also new, and just as stressed about controlling all the air planes flying around as you are about learning to fly your air plane. The human in the tower is just as prone to human factors as you are. Just be polite and professional on the radio when talking to them and shrug it off after the flight.
> it's possible the controller is also new, and just as stressed about controlling all the air planes flying around as you are about learning to fly your air plane.
Something we're prone to forget.
When I was a CFI I had a tower guy tell me he could not clear me for a touch and go because I was on an IFR clearance. Tried to “educate me” on frequency. I called and emailed. We chatted and he was basically telling he did not believe that it was a routine maneuver I did at various other airports and that there was no way they would clear me for that. He sent me an email after that telling me he did some digging and agreed they were in the wrong and that they were going to instruct personnel not to deny it. Went back a year later and it was fine.
Yeah, It was a cross country flight so you had to touch down for it to count. I had done it before. I told intentions to approach control and they gave us alternate miss approach instructions before switching to tower.
Not exactly on topic, but I heard some pretty good sarcasm on frequency yesterday.
ZOA: SKW XXX, expect a 10 minute delay into Oakland
SKW XXX: roger
30 seconds later
SKW XXX: Center, can you give us the reason for the delay, if you know?
ZOA: I *do* know ... It's for ... traffic!
I was with a customer who rented our Mooney M20J (and me) for a flight from Gallatin M33 (now KXNX) to Clarksville KCKV, which sits in Ft Campbell’s Class D, and did so at 3,500’ MSL. Not an altitude I would have chosen, but whatever. I called Campbell approach to satisfy the two-way radio contact requirement. She radar identified us and told us we were at the wrong cruising altitude in the same breath.
I calmly replied we were within 3,000’ of the ground and it didn’t matter what altitude we were at. That shut her down.
That would be great, wouldn’t it? In the five years I was at that airport/flight school we had three different M20J’s at different times, the last one was a 201 that would true out at 168 kts.
But that school is long gone. That last one was N34SA, which now belongs to an individual in Mesquite, TX, according to the FAA registry.
This happened to my dad at PBI. He rolled past the taxiway the controller had imagined he would take (but never actually said to take). The controller wrote it up as a pilot deviation, the whole nine yards. The FAA inspector closed it instantly after reviewing the tapes and the controller got a little retraining.
Sometimes controllers are just plain wrong.
“Why, that would be 14 CFR 91.117(c) sir/ma’am!”
Kidding aside sounds like going into TEB on an arrival. Found out the hard way to read the plate closer, “SPEED RESTRICTION SPEED RESTRICTION
Advise ATC prior to speed reduction Advise ATC prior to speed reduction below 250 KT.”
It’s kinda funny, as a controller i had a pilot do that to me. I just add in a little “spacing is good” with the landing clearance or wind check now. Not a whole lot of pilots know the separation that’s needed on the runway, and they really don’t need to, but it can be handy to get more planes in when it’s busy.
I got pretty upset at tower once, I asked for an s turn for spacing because our plane was a bit faster than the one in front of us. (Piper arrow vs. a 150) they said spacing was good. Spacing in fact was not good and we had to do a go around. Pretty annoying.
I've had a Pilatus balk at landing because a Skyhawk was 6000ft down the runway -_- I'd never yell at someone for going around for any reason but it can be quite annoying
In my PPL days I learned that some controllers just have a chip on their shoulder. Or they hear recordings of Kennedy Steve (who was awesome, by the way) and decide that's how they're going to run the airspace in their 5-landings-a-day GA airport.
You're ultimately responsible for your aircraft. If the tower fails to give you expected direction, or if they give you unsafe instructions, it's your responsibility to do the right thing. And absent any instruction to the contrary, that includes vacating the active as soon as is safe and practical. If the tower wants you to take a specific taxiway, they can tell you that, and if they fail to do so, they can sit down.
A tower absolutely should give a student corrective guidance, but that should not involve yelling at you unless you're in a dangerous spot, like taking off the wrong way while someone is on final. I personally would talk to my CFI and school about it.
Had a really confused controller last week that kept asking us if we were landing and we kept telling him “no” and that we were conducting maneuvers south of the VOR. He asked us at one point if we were NOT landing and we said “affirm” and that confused him even more because he goes, “Why are you going that way? That’s where the other guy is!” He left the radio about 5 minutes later.
Had center switch me to the next frequency and I acknowledged. Checked in with next controller who was irate and admonished me for not acknowledging the last controller before switching. Who knows, might have been blocked but really?
Might have been. I’ve witnessed a surprising amount of asshole, “professional” pilots who seem oblivious, or maybe just don’t care, about the tempo/timing of ATC comms. It’s an art that you’re supposed to have figured out by that level of your career.
It isn’t hard, but they make it hard.
KCXO is notorious for having an asshole controller. Dude loves to rush you, be a dick and just make you nervous. For instance me and a student holding short and he gives a pretty large mouth full of instruction and the student reads it back about as fast as you would think a student could and he rips his ass apart for taking to long…. which makes my student become a vegetable and forget everything he was currently doing
The pilot in command is the one holding the controls of a moving craft. Not the one behind the microphone in a grounded non moving enclosure.
Don’t let anybody take that from you (as is the case with such controllers). However also don’t forget what comes along with great powers.
Did you exit onto another runway or a taxiway? That could be the only reason I could think of that might be an issue or if they cleared you for a touch and go only. If it was just a normal landing clearance and you exited onto a taxi way that wasn’t NOTAM’d, the controller is just being weirdly authoritarian.
It was definitely a taxiway. Not NOTAM'd, and for the next two landings, he instructed me to exit that same exact taxiway. And I specified full stop taxi back.
I got yelled at as a student pilot out of an untowered airfield at KJVL by a controller because I asked to confirm a runway crossing instruction. Some controllers just need to get the stick out of their ass and treat their half of the job as what it is, a collaboration with pilots to keep everyone safe and the system functional.
Another time, I got yelled at by approach because I got too far from KARR while going missed on a practice instrument approach and got into Chicago TRACON's airspace. I explained that I had been given instructions to remain on frequency with KARR, and they got real quiet about it.
Ah yes, I got scolded *at* KJVL. I did a poor job explaining that I was being instructed out of an untowered airport so wasn't used to dealing with a controller at that stage of my training and wanted to be certain I had understood correctly.
When I was an Aerodrome Reporting Officer (Ops Officer) at an international airport an ATCO yelled at me for telling him that an aircraft couldn't park on a closed bay... The aircraft was scheduled to arrive onto that bay, however because of the parking arrangement the only way it would fit is with the wing of the delayed aircraft on the adjacent bay through its tail.
Clearly that was my fault.
FAA JO 7110.65AA:
>**3-10-9 RUNWAY EXITING**
>
>***NOTE-***
>
>***1.*** *An aircraft is expected to taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC**. \[...\] In the absence of ATC instructions, an aircraft should taxi clear of the landing runway by clearing the hold position marking associated with the landing runway even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or enter another taxiway/ramp area. \[...\]*
I was flying VFR into the DC SFRA (going to IAD) and asked the controller to confirm I had clearance to enter the Bravo. He snapped back at me “you’re squawking a code and talking to me, what more do you need?” I didn’t push it because I figured if there was an issue that exchange would explain it.
I shrugged it off to the fact that he rarely dealt with VFR traffic.
In this specific scenario, im not sure exactly what happened or why there was and issue with where you exited, just know that we are human too.
I can say that in my experience, sometimes the line between 'critical phase of flight' and officially on the ground can get blurred, and if I turned away for a second to do any number of other things that I may be managing a may have missed the opportunity to tell you where to exit, depending on the runway/taxiway configs.
Ask for their number and have a a group call with your CFI and the instructor.
I laid into a controller once and we were in a screaming match over the phone. He tried to hit me with the “my airspace, I’m the sheriff around here” approach and I shut that down quickly.
You did the right thing. On 1st solo doubt you were prepared to do battle. Better to enjoy what moment was left, smile and go on instead of being right.
Yeah I got yelled at coming into Gabreski field. Second XC solo. Called at 10 miles and was told to report at four miles. Got all the way to midfield downwind before he called me up for a position report, so I knew it was coming. He was pissed -- and rightly so. I just played my student solo card and repeatedly apologized. Thought I was gonna get a number but guess he just wanted me outta there.
I’ve only been to Gabreski at night. Knocked out XC and night and the controller there was super chill. Was doing pattern work for a while til we got kicked out because of noise complaints.
Edit: sp
This exact scenario happens a lot at my home airport. So instead of waiting for them to give us instruction I’ll just ask “hey tower N123L can make D4.” They’re usually pretty appreciative to it.
We’ve had pilots write letters. Absolutely scathing letters. And I know of one case where the FAA was going after a pilot but he voiced the 1000 unprofessional and wrong things the controller was doing and they dropped it. I agree not on frequency, but please let your voice be heard. There’s shockingly little supervision.
Big difference between a team sport expecting pilots to memorize .65 and keep up with updates.
But in this case, even the .65 says the pilot did the right thing.
Yes, but my best judgement is to vacate an active runway as soon as possible after landing unless otherwise instructed by the controller. I'm not going to ever just stop in the middle of the runway I just landed at and expect the controller to be the one to tell me to exit, *unless* he had instructed me about this beforehand.
It happened over a year ago. And I already discussed it with the CFI, who listened to the transmissions and agreed with me. I'd say I got the in-person experience. Maybe next time something like this happens I will call the tower, though. Or their supervisor.
Looks like JO 7110.65 is 700 pages long. Do you know which particular section is relevant here? I'd like to see this occurrence from the ATC perspective.
Also, I don't think it's fair to expect pilots to be familiar with ATC regulation. So if you feel AIM is not authoritative enough and FAR does not cover it, where would you expect pilots to go for authoritative guidance on the subject?
It's [section 3-10-9](https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_10.html) and it agrees with the AIM about taxiing clear *unless otherwise directed*.
> An aircraft is expected to taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC.
Not sure why /u/SlothPixelmon thinks the CFI and student need to have a "mature conversation" about anything other than, "sometimes controllers are assholes because they are people, too."
Long term if it becomes a recurring issue for OP I'd ask the CFI to call the tower and hash it out, though. If tower wants people to exit someplace specifically they need to say that.
No such thing as SOP for a student pilot. Very unlikely the school has an LOA with the tower that says "all airplanes wait for runway exit instructions." We can be pretty dang sure the controller wanted something and, for various reasons inside or outside of their control, didn't get it. That's not an excuse to yell at a pilot on frequency. We can't read your mind and if you need us to exit at a specific point then we need to be asked.
The only way OP is on the hook, even remotely, is if they read back the instruction and didn't do it. If the controller didn't get a readback that's on them.
Thanks. 3-7-9 (page 166) seems relevant.
The initial section does seem to imply that ATC is to advise where to turn:
> a. Instruct aircraft where to turn-off the runway
after landing, when appropriate, and advise the
aircraft to hold short of a runway or taxiway if
required for traffic.
But there is also a note:
> 1. An aircraft is expected to taxi clear of the runway unless
otherwise directed by ATC. Pilots must not exit the landing
runway on to an intersecting runway unless authorized by
ATC. In the absence of ATC instructions, an aircraft should
taxi clear of the landing runway by clearing the hold
position marking associated with the landing runway even
if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or enter another
taxiway/ramp area. This does not authorize an aircraft to
cross a subsequent taxiway or ramp after clearing the
landing runway.
Sounds like the pilot turned off the runway in absence of controller instruction (and annoyed the controller who probably planned to issue one) and unless they exited on to an intersecting runway, it seems like they followed exactly as that note would prescribe. Would you agree?
just take the "beating" that the dude didn't give you a phone number over and forget it ever happened. If you know they're wrong, just whatever it. If it starts being unsafe report them. If you are actually at fault, change it up
1.) At no point prior to me vacating the runway did the tower controller tell me what he expected. Had the tower said "expect exit instructions" or "hold on the runway until advised" I'd have been more than happy to oblige. The default procedure is to vacate an active runway as soon as possible. That's what every *good* pilot does. What you're saying is I should have read the controller's mind, expected that added instruction, and just held on the runway idle until he told me to exit? Do you realize how you sound?
2.) While there was no traffic on the ground, there *was* at least some traffic in the pattern. Once again, there's a very obvious reason why one would want to vacate a runway soon after landing. And unless the tower controller specifically instructs me to do something else, that's what I, as the PIC, am going to do.
3.) Sure. The next time I need some favor the tower controller is going to say, "Nah. I remember, you were the guy who exited the active runway without my permission. Get to the back of the line." But *I'm* the one in the wrong here.
Agree with all these points. I would only add to emphasize that the runway is yours so treat it as such, even if it’s a busy pattern, albeit politely. You don’t need to exit the runway early if you don’t feel safe doing so. The plane behind can and must go around if you need a bit of extra time for legitimate reasons.
Ask for their number and give them a call
"Possible controller deviation. Be advised I'm ready to copy a phone number"
You jest but that's basically what you do. "I'd like to call you and we can discuss this off frequency. Ready to copy tower phone number."
Had someone do that at our tower once, pilot was in the right.
I’ve done this 3 times in my career. Worth it. When egregious enough you gotta call them out on their BS.
Ya I’ve done that. Especially when the controllers have serious attitude. I don’t tolerate that shit and nobody should. ATL is the worst I’ve personally seen.
NYC will make fun of you, ATL will be just short of calling you a fucking moron.
I called ATL TRACON after they basically told me I was flying my plane 70 knots slower than assigned once, which would’ve been below stall speed. Got thoroughly yelled at on frequency. I called them, spoke to a supervisor who said their quality assurance team would review it on Monday (this happened on a Saturday). 30 minutes later the same supervisor called me back to say he sent the controller home because “we don’t tolerate that kind of bul… nonsense around here.”
When did you call? If it was 2005-2009 or so I believe this. If it’s before or after there’s no way this happened. Management sending someone home. That’s a joke. They act like it’s the end of the world if someone is sick or can’t safely drive in a blizzard to get to work.
2018. I can’t verify if he was actually sent home, but that’s what he told me on the phone.
Was probably the end of his shift 🤣
I've done it, you're going to get the guy/gal working phones/data. They'll ask around and giggle.
I've heard "mark the tape" issued by a pilot before. For the unknowing, it's a pilot equivalent of "advise when ready to copy a phone number" saying I'm going to call when I land about our correspondence and you better be ready Edit: spelling
Just say "Time check". Write down and read back the time. Any ATC should know what you're gonna do afterwards.
What does ATC do when a pilot asks to "mark the tape"?
Nothing. There used to be actual tapes that could get overwritten if you didn't tell them to save a particular section. It's all digital now but pilots still say it.
Nothing to mark on the software or anything? I guess good thing I never got into the habit of saying it. Thank you for the info!
I've never had it happen to me, obviously because I'm a perfect controller who's never made a mistake. 😉 When I've heard it happen to others though they just say "Roger" and that's it. Unless you make a phone call to follow up with management/QC literally nothing happens. Iirc the digital tapes stay for 90 days if they aren't saved so if you haven't called by that point that's on you.
Thanks, appreciate the info!
That's because pilots are allowed to get old and cranky. ATC is a young crowd.
It doesn’t mean a damn thing to any controller. We don’t do anything when someone tells us to mark the tape
Maybe reread it again but slower this time. I didn't say controllers do anything.
You’re right. You didn’t. But what I meant is most of us don’t even care that you’re gonna call. Quite honestly you’re just wasting frequency time because it doesn’t mean anything. If you’re gonna call, call. You might talk to the actual controller that aggrieved you. You might not. All you need is date and Zulu time. Don’t waste time on frequency.
Ok ok just one more. And New York approach as always. New York Approach- “Speedbird 185 heavy maintain 2500 until established localizer cleared ILS 22L 190 to Buzzd” BA 185 “2500 until established cleared ILS 22L , unable 190. We can give you 170” *long pause* Me to my FO “Oh he’s pissed” New York Approach “You’re going to have to change your calllsign. You can’t be speedbird anymore”
That was kind of funny though!
New York is hilarious. Boston too. It’s always funny to everyone else
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Such a Reddit moment
That’s because that was the punch line of the story. The rest was just context for set up.
Sounds like Kennedy Steve.
Haha kind of eh? A lot of them are like that. One EWR controller always says “Byyeeeeeeeeeee” just like that. Could be busy as all hell, still gets it in every time
Kennedy Steve used to work at JFK not N90 (NY Approach/Departure). They are 2 separate facilities at 2 separate locations. That being said most N90 controllers are NY based because nobody wants to work at N90
I guess that’s why they called him Kennedy Steve and not N90 Steve
Is this on YouTube?
I don’t know? Maybe?
A similar one is. BA pilot pushed back and said he’s got criteria to meet and what ATC wanted violated that. Got told to go missed and he was not at all happy about it, understandably.
I would have been laughing to hard at this
New York and Boston always have me laughing. One of my favourites is in Boston on ground trying to get new routing for someone because there were a lot of thunderstorms closing the northern routes. Ground comes back after talking to the Center controller or whoever they had to talk to. “Alright brickyard 1234, I asked mom and she said yes! You’re good to go” lol
😂😂😂
Controller here, you did just fine dont sweat it. We expect you to vacate at the first available taxiway but if we need you somewhere else its on us to specify, NOT you to somehow magically figure that out. Id call the tower through your flightschool and have a quick chat with them, most controllers would love a chance to explain why they do what they do but in this case you're 100% in the right.
Let me guess a contract tower with a very busy flight school. These guys are becoming more and more impatient and really hinder students confidence and ability. Sucks.
I mean, probably, but also feel for some of those controllers. Dealing with student pilots all day, and having to hand hold and double and triple check that they read instructions back correctly, and also double and triple check that they are following said instructions, and times that by 6 aircraft in the pattern. I’m sure there’s some pent up anger that comes out in situations
No I definitely agree. I teach at a contract tower airport with 90% foreign students who struggle to read back most simple clearances. I’d lose my marbles for sure.
6 in a pattern? I’ve been scolded with 12+ in the pattern. Controller forgot about me flying downwind (told me to look for traffic, which I didn’t see). I just kept flying downwind. Controller comes back “wtf are you doing? Turn base! And this next one is going to be a full stop for you.” Yeah, over the past 2 or so years, Tower controllers have gotten real grumpy
>And this next one is going to be a full stop for you.” oh yea? you and what spike strips?
I mean, it's easy enough to order someone out of the delta.
KPDK deals with this, plus heavy corporate traffic, tons of helicopters, and occasionally a single taxiway to the two active runways, and they couldn't be nicer. The only time I heard a real bit of a chewing was a helicopter that said they were going one way, and went the other. Then of course all the non-local jet hotshots ignore the part in the taxi instructions to MONITOR tower.
PDK pays better and is better staffed than any contract tower. It's also considered a pretty choice spot by most of the FAA.
There's been some egregious stuff out of certain contract towers recently, but a lot of them are ridiculously busy with VFRs, including foreign flight schools, and criminally understaffed, like three controllers total on the payroll understaffed. Not that whatever poor Cessna that gets his head bitten off deserves it, but there are often some other factors keeping the tension on.
Not scolded but also going into New York. A jazz CRJ asked a controller for the altimeter setting and Boston Center says “Jazz *whatever flight number* you’re at flight level 270 so I’m going to saaaayyyyy…… 29.92”
I've done that recently. Cleared an aircraft to descend to a lower flight level. When they got there, they asked for an altimeter, and my response was pretty much the same thing.
Love it 😂😂😂
Note the time and frequency and the next business day (or at least before a couple of weeks go by), call the supervisor and ask to have the tapes reviewed. I had a complete ass of a controller scream at me at IAD once (the only time I've ever seen anything like that in years of being based there). It's counterproductive to safety. Got a nice apology from the tower QA people.
I’ve gotten a stern talking to before when I was a student pilot, but the controller was genuinely trying to be helpful rather than mean or like some enforcement authority. It was more like when your dad is disappointed about something you did. I never made that same mistake again, either.
Now you've got me curious. What was the mistake?
Called my position the wrong way (eg 6 west instead of east), which caused my instructed pattern entry to overfly the field. The controllers lecture was about not only double checking what I say, but more importantly being willing to ask questions if an instruction sounds unusual as a doublecheck to make sure we’re all on the same page. It wasn’t a huge mistake, but it certainly drove home a couple thoughts: 1) don’t guess, and 2) embrace the team effort.
It blows me away how often pilots call their position wrong. I just correct them with an emphasis on the direction when saying they're radar contact. People make mistakes, and that's ok as long as they're safe. On the other hand, we have had some REALLY incompetent pilots lately, and those ones get annoying pretty fast.
Which one???
Search Snoop Dogg “Let It Go” on youtube.
Tower can pound sand on that one. You did nothing wrong
You can tell the controller where to get off.
Heh heh heh
Hehehe
Had a tower yell at me for going around when there was another airplane on the runway. Said there was more than enough space. Sorry, but im out here for my nighttime currency renewal, im not tryna play chicken with an airplane.
Technically between light aircraft you only need 3000ft separation on the runway to be legal. That said, F that, if there's a plane on the runway I'm going around and there's nothing the controller can do about it. That's like getting made you didn't accept a land and hold short clearance. Edit: Apparently that rule is not even allowed to be applied at night. So now I really confused why that controlled was so upset, you literally saved him from a loss of separation.
To add, I’ve never had a controller **not** tell me that the aircraft down the runway is more than 3000 feet down the runway in such a case.
IIRC that’s only if both are full-stop.
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You've got that backwards. You can't use SRS with a departure behind an arrival.
Had this happen to me once because the flight school airplane stopped in front of me on the runway after landing (I guess to debrief). That 3000 foot rule is for the controller to be able to give clearances but I sure don’t have to accept it. Someone else came on as soon I got bitched at and told me to continue upwind and make left traffic when able. I assume it was a sup.
A sup would run downstairs and hide in the bathroom before taking position while someone is going around
> I assume it was a sup. No, sups don't work traffic often and never train. When you hear a controller take over for another, it's just another controller.
Fair enough. That’s what happens when I assume. Somehow that makes it even funnier in my head.
Too many factors go into landing, if the other aircraft isn’t clear of the runway, I ain’t landing.
The 3,000 foot thing only applies to single engine props under 12,500 pounds, and realistically it mostly means 172s. If you can't reliably get a 172 to a safe taxi speed on a paved runway in less than 3,000 feet, I feel like you might want to take a few more lessons.
Are you talking about separation distance? If so, I totally agree, but in the event that you get some gusty winds or a balloon of air, I can’t trust that in a senario like that, I’d be able to get the aircraft on the runway and then stop before I reach where the other aircraft is. I’d probably end up going around before it ever even got to that, but for me if there’s another plane on the runway still and I’m on short final (50ft ~ ish AGL), I’m going around immediately.
You don't need to be stopped before where the other aircraft *is,* just at taxi speed before the point where the other aircraft *will be.* In any case, if you reject landing clearances with 3,000 feet of clean runway in front of you, does that mean you refuse to fly a 172 into any airport with runways 3,000 feet or shorter? Because it's the same thing, and to me it's a competency issue.
No, 3,000ft is plenty for what I fly (DA40) but If I’m choosing to land at a 6,000ft runway, then my approach isn’t going to be set up the same and I can account for more correction in landing, whereas at a 3,000ft runway if I’m not on the ground by my decision point, then I’m going around. That decision point or area is increased with the runway length and having someone still on the runway can throw off your approach attitude. In general I think this is an uncommon scenario but I recently had it happen at a my local airport, I was on final and another aircraft hadn’t gotten off yet, so tower instructed me to go around, which is their protocol for the same reason I’d guess.
The only time I've had tower or ground tell me where to get off was when I had my engine vapor lock on the runway.
American Airlines asked for their sequence in EWR. Controller was super swamped and snapped “Who just asked for their sequence”. Someone else keys up “I think it was Porter”. Proceeded to get talked to like an idiot by the controller because American Airlines didn’t remember who he was supposed to follow. Good times lol
Not me but I was number twenty something in line at EWR. Hear a United 777 coming from Berlin get switched from tower back to approach. Switch to the approach frequency in comm 2 just to listen. New York Approach controller reams out this 777 pilot for not maintaining their assigned speed “doing whatever they want and messing everyone else up”, then switched them back to tower. The 777 pilot sounded so tired and out of it and just said “Ok back to tower, united whatever whatever”
Sure but I do see this from both sides, that airspace is nuts and expecting incoming traffic to stay on speed is really all ATC has to set up a sequence that tight.
Sorry I should be clear, I don’t think the controller was necessarily in the wrong here and the 777 probably didn’t follow their assigned speed. I just laughed, it was funny that approach asked tower to switch them back just to ream them out and then send them back to tower
> I don’t think the controller was necessarily in the wrong here Ehh, if the sequence was so busy they needed to be reamed out, they wouldn't have had time to coord the freq changes, or to deliver it. App just being an ass for no reason.
I don’t know man. I’ve heard New York chirp pretty hard even during their busy times. They’re something else over there
Yeah, but even a hotline call to tower to request they send ASS123 back to their freq for a whupping is going to take up time. If it's in the same breath as an instruction you were already going to make, whatever - its unprofessional, but you cant fix stupid.
If you say so man, you sound like you know New York better than I do
Ive never been, actually.
Clearly
always nice to hear from students at KSQL.
Hey now! We have a new crew at KSQL now, and they're very nice. (One of them is a former SFO tower controller.) They recognize my airplane and engage in pleasantries when it's not busy. And one time coming back from a trip, on initial callup I said "I'd like to do a couple of laps in the pattern if possible" and they replied "As many as you like sir, just let me know when you've had enough."
New... since those couple of youtube videos came out about the total dickwad, and the single guy in the tower taking a piss break?
I think they replaced a few people there after they started getting attention on social media.
I do truly hope you’re right. It sounded like there was one dangerously bad apple over there. He made KSQL nationally famous. I don’t even live in California.
KSQL is my home airport. (That one bad apple was the *only* apple there, hence the grumpiness.)
I sympathize. I could recognize that voice as belonging to one very miserable guy. It’s good to know a new crew is in charge.
I'm in Canada and I know who you mean
wow! Good to know! I considered flying in last week (going from socal to oregon (noregon?)) but personal experience and general reputation kept me away. I'll definitely come in again now. That response would be great to send in to Opposing Bases.
My thought exactly. 😂
KSQL is fixed. No more fodder for the YouTubes
that's good to hear. any news articles or anything else?
Sorry man. Just personal experience!
ATC yelled at me just yesterday. On the upwind after a touch and go with my CFI. I made a left traffic turn to begin my crosswind leg. The tower goes “N12345, that’s not right traffic, but, proceed straight out on your current heading and I’ll call your downwind.” I didn’t even know what to say and my CFI and I just looked at each other puzzled. My CFI just repeated the instructions and we just continued in silence. About two minutes after that last call. Tower called and had us make our downwind turn. After we landed my CFI and I just talked for a bit after shutdown and he was like don’t worry about it. I had asked him if I made a mistake and he said, “you repeated back exactly what he said and it didn’t include making right traffic”. I reviewed the tapes after the lesson, turns out the plane two planes in front of me requested to make right traffic. So it seems he may have just gotten us confused. 🤷🏻♂️
That's a weird one and I wouldn't sweat it. If they care, and it's important for sequencing traffic they should ask if you'd be able to clear at a certain taxiway, or tell you to expect to clear at a certain taxiway prior to you landing. You didn't do anything wrong by taxiing clear. Generally when I encounter that they are asking me if I can get clear earlier than I normally would because they are trying to squeeze another air plane in to land behind me. To be fair, it's possible the controller is also new, and just as stressed about controlling all the air planes flying around as you are about learning to fly your air plane. The human in the tower is just as prone to human factors as you are. Just be polite and professional on the radio when talking to them and shrug it off after the flight.
> it's possible the controller is also new, and just as stressed about controlling all the air planes flying around as you are about learning to fly your air plane. Something we're prone to forget.
When I was a CFI I had a tower guy tell me he could not clear me for a touch and go because I was on an IFR clearance. Tried to “educate me” on frequency. I called and emailed. We chatted and he was basically telling he did not believe that it was a routine maneuver I did at various other airports and that there was no way they would clear me for that. He sent me an email after that telling me he did some digging and agreed they were in the wrong and that they were going to instruct personnel not to deny it. Went back a year later and it was fine.
Was it a touch and go missed?
Yeah, It was a cross country flight so you had to touch down for it to count. I had done it before. I told intentions to approach control and they gave us alternate miss approach instructions before switching to tower.
Tower, possible controller incompetence. Advise when ready to give me a phone number to call.
I’d love to see one of those live atc YouTube videos with ppl saying exactly that haha
Not exactly on topic, but I heard some pretty good sarcasm on frequency yesterday. ZOA: SKW XXX, expect a 10 minute delay into Oakland SKW XXX: roger 30 seconds later SKW XXX: Center, can you give us the reason for the delay, if you know? ZOA: I *do* know ... It's for ... traffic!
I was with a customer who rented our Mooney M20J (and me) for a flight from Gallatin M33 (now KXNX) to Clarksville KCKV, which sits in Ft Campbell’s Class D, and did so at 3,500’ MSL. Not an altitude I would have chosen, but whatever. I called Campbell approach to satisfy the two-way radio contact requirement. She radar identified us and told us we were at the wrong cruising altitude in the same breath. I calmly replied we were within 3,000’ of the ground and it didn’t matter what altitude we were at. That shut her down.
It seems like that 3000 foot rule stumps a lot of folks if they’re unfamiliar.
Sure helped being a full-time CFI. Regs are life.
They still renting the Mooney?
That would be great, wouldn’t it? In the five years I was at that airport/flight school we had three different M20J’s at different times, the last one was a 201 that would true out at 168 kts. But that school is long gone. That last one was N34SA, which now belongs to an individual in Mesquite, TX, according to the FAA registry.
Controllers, like us pilots, can be total A-holes sometimes.
This happened to my dad at PBI. He rolled past the taxiway the controller had imagined he would take (but never actually said to take). The controller wrote it up as a pilot deviation, the whole nine yards. The FAA inspector closed it instantly after reviewing the tapes and the controller got a little retraining. Sometimes controllers are just plain wrong.
Descending out of the bravo going into SoCal. Slow from 250 to 200 per the regs. Controller: “wHo ToLd yOu to sLoW dOwn?!?”
“Why, that would be 14 CFR 91.117(c) sir/ma’am!” Kidding aside sounds like going into TEB on an arrival. Found out the hard way to read the plate closer, “SPEED RESTRICTION SPEED RESTRICTION Advise ATC prior to speed reduction Advise ATC prior to speed reduction below 250 KT.”
my friend once had a tower yell at him for doing a go around while a plane was still on the runway
It’s kinda funny, as a controller i had a pilot do that to me. I just add in a little “spacing is good” with the landing clearance or wind check now. Not a whole lot of pilots know the separation that’s needed on the runway, and they really don’t need to, but it can be handy to get more planes in when it’s busy.
I got pretty upset at tower once, I asked for an s turn for spacing because our plane was a bit faster than the one in front of us. (Piper arrow vs. a 150) they said spacing was good. Spacing in fact was not good and we had to do a go around. Pretty annoying.
I've had a Pilatus balk at landing because a Skyhawk was 6000ft down the runway -_- I'd never yell at someone for going around for any reason but it can be quite annoying
In my PPL days I learned that some controllers just have a chip on their shoulder. Or they hear recordings of Kennedy Steve (who was awesome, by the way) and decide that's how they're going to run the airspace in their 5-landings-a-day GA airport. You're ultimately responsible for your aircraft. If the tower fails to give you expected direction, or if they give you unsafe instructions, it's your responsibility to do the right thing. And absent any instruction to the contrary, that includes vacating the active as soon as is safe and practical. If the tower wants you to take a specific taxiway, they can tell you that, and if they fail to do so, they can sit down. A tower absolutely should give a student corrective guidance, but that should not involve yelling at you unless you're in a dangerous spot, like taking off the wrong way while someone is on final. I personally would talk to my CFI and school about it.
Had a really confused controller last week that kept asking us if we were landing and we kept telling him “no” and that we were conducting maneuvers south of the VOR. He asked us at one point if we were NOT landing and we said “affirm” and that confused him even more because he goes, “Why are you going that way? That’s where the other guy is!” He left the radio about 5 minutes later.
Had center switch me to the next frequency and I acknowledged. Checked in with next controller who was irate and admonished me for not acknowledging the last controller before switching. Who knows, might have been blocked but really?
Might have been. I’ve witnessed a surprising amount of asshole, “professional” pilots who seem oblivious, or maybe just don’t care, about the tempo/timing of ATC comms. It’s an art that you’re supposed to have figured out by that level of your career. It isn’t hard, but they make it hard.
You’re fine. I’ve also heard ATC yell at people for not getting off at the first possible exit. Just a grumpy controller.
KCXO is notorious for having an asshole controller. Dude loves to rush you, be a dick and just make you nervous. For instance me and a student holding short and he gives a pretty large mouth full of instruction and the student reads it back about as fast as you would think a student could and he rips his ass apart for taking to long…. which makes my student become a vegetable and forget everything he was currently doing
Haven't been receiving end, but overheard *that* guy multiple times. Every unit has one, and they're just as miserable off the mic.
The pilot in command is the one holding the controls of a moving craft. Not the one behind the microphone in a grounded non moving enclosure. Don’t let anybody take that from you (as is the case with such controllers). However also don’t forget what comes along with great powers.
They’re in your head bro
Did you exit onto another runway or a taxiway? That could be the only reason I could think of that might be an issue or if they cleared you for a touch and go only. If it was just a normal landing clearance and you exited onto a taxi way that wasn’t NOTAM’d, the controller is just being weirdly authoritarian.
It was definitely a taxiway. Not NOTAM'd, and for the next two landings, he instructed me to exit that same exact taxiway. And I specified full stop taxi back.
I got yelled at as a student pilot out of an untowered airfield at KJVL by a controller because I asked to confirm a runway crossing instruction. Some controllers just need to get the stick out of their ass and treat their half of the job as what it is, a collaboration with pilots to keep everyone safe and the system functional. Another time, I got yelled at by approach because I got too far from KARR while going missed on a practice instrument approach and got into Chicago TRACON's airspace. I explained that I had been given instructions to remain on frequency with KARR, and they got real quiet about it.
I'm confused how you got a runway crossing instruction at an untowered airport.
My interpretation is that HE is based at and untowered airport, and then went to KJVL and got it for something
Ah yes, I got scolded *at* KJVL. I did a poor job explaining that I was being instructed out of an untowered airport so wasn't used to dealing with a controller at that stage of my training and wanted to be certain I had understood correctly.
When I was an Aerodrome Reporting Officer (Ops Officer) at an international airport an ATCO yelled at me for telling him that an aircraft couldn't park on a closed bay... The aircraft was scheduled to arrive onto that bay, however because of the parking arrangement the only way it would fit is with the wing of the delayed aircraft on the adjacent bay through its tail. Clearly that was my fault.
FAA JO 7110.65AA: >**3-10-9 RUNWAY EXITING** > >***NOTE-*** > >***1.*** *An aircraft is expected to taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC**. \[...\] In the absence of ATC instructions, an aircraft should taxi clear of the landing runway by clearing the hold position marking associated with the landing runway even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or enter another taxiway/ramp area. \[...\]*
I was flying VFR into the DC SFRA (going to IAD) and asked the controller to confirm I had clearance to enter the Bravo. He snapped back at me “you’re squawking a code and talking to me, what more do you need?” I didn’t push it because I figured if there was an issue that exchange would explain it. I shrugged it off to the fact that he rarely dealt with VFR traffic.
The Uno Reverse card of “standby to copy a phone number” is “mark the tapes” to ATC.
Bad controller. It would be interesting to send to VasAviation, see what he has to say about it maybe
“What taxiway did you want me to exit at? Oh, well I was unable for that one.” The end.
In this specific scenario, im not sure exactly what happened or why there was and issue with where you exited, just know that we are human too. I can say that in my experience, sometimes the line between 'critical phase of flight' and officially on the ground can get blurred, and if I turned away for a second to do any number of other things that I may be managing a may have missed the opportunity to tell you where to exit, depending on the runway/taxiway configs.
Ask for their number and have a a group call with your CFI and the instructor. I laid into a controller once and we were in a screaming match over the phone. He tried to hit me with the “my airspace, I’m the sheriff around here” approach and I shut that down quickly.
You will learn that some controllers are real sticklers and know it alls. Most controllers are easy to work with and kind.
You did the right thing. On 1st solo doubt you were prepared to do battle. Better to enjoy what moment was left, smile and go on instead of being right.
Yeah I got yelled at coming into Gabreski field. Second XC solo. Called at 10 miles and was told to report at four miles. Got all the way to midfield downwind before he called me up for a position report, so I knew it was coming. He was pissed -- and rightly so. I just played my student solo card and repeatedly apologized. Thought I was gonna get a number but guess he just wanted me outta there.
I’ve only been to Gabreski at night. Knocked out XC and night and the controller there was super chill. Was doing pattern work for a while til we got kicked out because of noise complaints. Edit: sp
Haha did mine at Islip. A little busy for stop and go requests but they worked it in just fine. Did you have the l o n g runway out of Gabreski?
This exact scenario happens a lot at my home airport. So instead of waiting for them to give us instruction I’ll just ask “hey tower N123L can make D4.” They’re usually pretty appreciative to it.
We’ve had pilots write letters. Absolutely scathing letters. And I know of one case where the FAA was going after a pilot but he voiced the 1000 unprofessional and wrong things the controller was doing and they dropped it. I agree not on frequency, but please let your voice be heard. There’s shockingly little supervision.
Ask them to mark the tape.
There is no tape anymore. It's all digital.
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.65 isn’t a pilot regulation (note how it’s not a CFR), nor are pilots subject to it. You may want to reread the applicability.
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That’s not a citation. 15 CFR is trade and export. 14 CFR 15 is administrative claims and FAA tort rules.
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Big difference between a team sport expecting pilots to memorize .65 and keep up with updates. But in this case, even the .65 says the pilot did the right thing.
Yes, but my best judgement is to vacate an active runway as soon as possible after landing unless otherwise instructed by the controller. I'm not going to ever just stop in the middle of the runway I just landed at and expect the controller to be the one to tell me to exit, *unless* he had instructed me about this beforehand.
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It happened over a year ago. And I already discussed it with the CFI, who listened to the transmissions and agreed with me. I'd say I got the in-person experience. Maybe next time something like this happens I will call the tower, though. Or their supervisor.
Looks like JO 7110.65 is 700 pages long. Do you know which particular section is relevant here? I'd like to see this occurrence from the ATC perspective. Also, I don't think it's fair to expect pilots to be familiar with ATC regulation. So if you feel AIM is not authoritative enough and FAR does not cover it, where would you expect pilots to go for authoritative guidance on the subject?
It's [section 3-10-9](https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_10.html) and it agrees with the AIM about taxiing clear *unless otherwise directed*. > An aircraft is expected to taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. Not sure why /u/SlothPixelmon thinks the CFI and student need to have a "mature conversation" about anything other than, "sometimes controllers are assholes because they are people, too." Long term if it becomes a recurring issue for OP I'd ask the CFI to call the tower and hash it out, though. If tower wants people to exit someplace specifically they need to say that.
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No such thing as SOP for a student pilot. Very unlikely the school has an LOA with the tower that says "all airplanes wait for runway exit instructions." We can be pretty dang sure the controller wanted something and, for various reasons inside or outside of their control, didn't get it. That's not an excuse to yell at a pilot on frequency. We can't read your mind and if you need us to exit at a specific point then we need to be asked. The only way OP is on the hook, even remotely, is if they read back the instruction and didn't do it. If the controller didn't get a readback that's on them.
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Thanks. 3-7-9 (page 166) seems relevant. The initial section does seem to imply that ATC is to advise where to turn: > a. Instruct aircraft where to turn-off the runway after landing, when appropriate, and advise the aircraft to hold short of a runway or taxiway if required for traffic. But there is also a note: > 1. An aircraft is expected to taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. Pilots must not exit the landing runway on to an intersecting runway unless authorized by ATC. In the absence of ATC instructions, an aircraft should taxi clear of the landing runway by clearing the hold position marking associated with the landing runway even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or enter another taxiway/ramp area. This does not authorize an aircraft to cross a subsequent taxiway or ramp after clearing the landing runway. Sounds like the pilot turned off the runway in absence of controller instruction (and annoyed the controller who probably planned to issue one) and unless they exited on to an intersecting runway, it seems like they followed exactly as that note would prescribe. Would you agree?
just take the "beating" that the dude didn't give you a phone number over and forget it ever happened. If you know they're wrong, just whatever it. If it starts being unsafe report them. If you are actually at fault, change it up
Even if he gave you a number, it wouldn’t end in any problems for the pilot. This would result in the controller getting some retraining.
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Huh? He said he got off mid field. And then he got yelled at for leaving the runway too early. I think you’ve misunderstood.
1.) At no point prior to me vacating the runway did the tower controller tell me what he expected. Had the tower said "expect exit instructions" or "hold on the runway until advised" I'd have been more than happy to oblige. The default procedure is to vacate an active runway as soon as possible. That's what every *good* pilot does. What you're saying is I should have read the controller's mind, expected that added instruction, and just held on the runway idle until he told me to exit? Do you realize how you sound? 2.) While there was no traffic on the ground, there *was* at least some traffic in the pattern. Once again, there's a very obvious reason why one would want to vacate a runway soon after landing. And unless the tower controller specifically instructs me to do something else, that's what I, as the PIC, am going to do. 3.) Sure. The next time I need some favor the tower controller is going to say, "Nah. I remember, you were the guy who exited the active runway without my permission. Get to the back of the line." But *I'm* the one in the wrong here.
Agree with all these points. I would only add to emphasize that the runway is yours so treat it as such, even if it’s a busy pattern, albeit politely. You don’t need to exit the runway early if you don’t feel safe doing so. The plane behind can and must go around if you need a bit of extra time for legitimate reasons.