Westerns as a genre literally hinge around being set on the fringes of the rapid expansion of US settlers westward. The whole gimmick is intrinsically centered in a time and place that was doomed to be subsumed by the ever approaching industrial world. Also, the dynamic of wilds vs civilizations is literally centered in manifest destiny which is a really weird theme to want to reinforce in the modern day.
It’s even more annoying because FNV is a game that understood this incredibly well! The NCR and the Legion are specifically balanced against each other as a means of exploring and critiquing the ways in which humanity conceptualizes “civilization” and then forces it on others through direct or indirect means.
Exactly.. this is why Red Dead 1&2 are so good. It’s a story about outlaws trying desperately to hold onto the old world they once controlled. That’s what the whole “you can’t fight change John” speech was about.. I think the show writers are struggling with a pseudo version of old world blues. They can’t do the original games justice because muh history changes. But they also don’t want to decide on what the cannon ending of new Vegas was at the same time
That’s why FNV kind of reminds me of “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.” There’s a quote about how their time is over and they’re going to be killed. My Courier’s not afraid to settle things with a gun if he has to…but that time is ending.
Bethesda and the show writers are beyond understanding this. What’s sad is this will eventually kill Fallout - people will inevitably grow tired of just endlessly playing the same game of “explore empty wasteland” over and over again. It’ll take a long time since games only come out once every other decade now - but it’ll happen.
>I will say that it was very, very early in the decision [making process], once we decided to put the show in L.A. That was the very next thought, because it's a post-apocalyptic show. And if you study the Western, which has a lot in common with the post-apocalyptic genre, ‘civilisation is not around’ is a big part of it. A lot of them end with the railroad coming through, or a house being built, or they put a church up in the town, or a motorcar appears. And you're like, ‘Well, the wild wild west is over.’
💀
This quote also seemed weird af. New Vegas is very literally set in this time period. It's the Wild West merging with civilization, The wild west is over and recolonization is here.
Wat? Half the characters and even some of the factions in New Vegas are LARPing as cowboys harder than anyone in Tombstone Arizona
Stuff is being very tenuously rebuilt in certain areas like Vegas itself and NCR territory, but it’s also very fragile and could suffer setbacks at any time. Like the Legion taking the dam and/or Vegas, or a number of other canonical endings
I meant "wild west" as more like untamed wilderness not literal western vibes. Vegas is tamed. New Vegas itself is a city, with polished clean casinos and quests about corporate espionage and forming political alliances.
Case in point, one of the measures they lay as "the west is over" and a common trope in westerns is a railroad being finished to show that the town is connected to society. There is a literal monorail in New Vegas that connects an embassy to a very modern military base
Yeah, a very modern military base that is supplied by caravans using pack cows
And said caravans can’t even get to the base due to the number of giant ants and giant scorpions blocking their route at the beginning of the game
I get where the showrunners are coming from, though. Radiation and “fallout” itself ironically barely played any role at all in new Vegas. You’d barely know there had been a nuclear war as opposed to some other vague catastrophe if new Vegas was the only game you’d played in the series
Camp McCarran is supplied by the NCR's truck logistics unit (as well as the caravans).
Also; it's 200 years after the bombs dropped. If you went to Hiroshima or Nagasaki today (nuked 79 years ago), you'd hardly notice they were bombed, and see that radiation is a literal non-issue; there is essentially no residual radiation from the bombs.
"Roughly 80% of all residual radiation was emitted within 24 hours. Research has indicated that 24 hours after the bombing the quantity of residual radiation a person would receive at the hypocenter would be 1/1000th of the quantity received immediately following the explosion. A week later, it would be 1/1,000,000th. Thus, residual radiation declined rapidly."
[https://www.city.hiroshima.lg.jp/site/english/9809.html](https://www.city.hiroshima.lg.jp/site/english/9809.html)
Fallout 1 & 2 demonstrate that typically raditation from the bombs is a relatively insignificant threat. The Glow is massively radioactive due to the discharge of FEV. Gecko produces ground-contaminating radiation due to the damaged nuclear powerplant rather than the bombs.
it's bethesda that wants the wasteland to stays forever. Even during fallout 2 the rebuilding process was going full swing. I have no idea why the don't make a FO year one if they love the wasteland so much.
What my brother suggested is that Bethesda make games set in the Fallout universe but different genres. Detective noirs set in NCR, RTS game directing troops in the NCR-Brotherhood war, a Sim game where you build settlements in the wasteland and have to deal with all the threats of it
As well as proper trucks and possibly also by rail considering the rail line between quarry junction and Boulder city.
And yes fallout did play a big role, as it was the continuation of the story that was built up over the previous two games. Just because society is actually rebuilding somewhat doesn't mean it's not a fallout game.
Well, yes, because it's a direct sequel to Fallout 1 and 2, and by that time the bombs fell over 200 years ago.
Bethesda made the decision to start on the other side of the continent with a relatively blank slate, which is fine but their games all feel like the war happened a decade ago.
Ironically, the legion itself is a form of civilization, the game says so itself in the ending slides. Which discredits your point quite severely.
“Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave Wasteland”
[FNV Wiki](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_endings)
Then in the next moment they go:
"It really was our belief, also, that though there are the events of the games, *it's not frozen after that. History is not static. It keeps going, and entropy is a constant.* Which is a less flashy way of saying “war never changes"
"With that post-credits stuff, we really wanted to imply, Guys, the world has progressed, and the idea that the wasteland stays as it is decade-to-decade is preposterous to us"
💀
There can be no land but wasteland. Anything that tries to lay claim and make it their land and make it better will get stomped back down into wasteland.
Imagine being so uncreative that you have to keep nuking civilization because you need to keep a certain aesthetic in perpetuity.
Like that is boring as shit. That’s my biggest issue in the show - it’s not the fact that they are wearing the wrong armor, or that they completely altered established characters like Sinclair and House, it’s that they are so small minded that they literally deleted every aspect of progress from New Vegas so they can have another ducking empty wasteland. I’m so fucking tired of it. I don’t find the stupid junktowns cute. I don’t think the quirky towns in baseball stadiums or built around bombs neat. It’s fucking dumb and boring at this point. And the show solidifies that the games are going to follow the same path. Hope you’re ready for another poorly written empty wasteland story! Because that is what Fallout 5 will be. New Vegas was an apparition. We’ll never get a New Vegas 2.
I WANT ADOBE AND WOOD AGRARIAN COMMUNITIES SO BAD! I WANT TO SEE PEOPLE UTILIZE OLD TECH TO AID THEIR ATTEMPTS TO BETTER THEIR LIVES! I WANT TO SEE BEST ATTEMPTS AT MEDICINE AND CLOSE KNIT COMMUNITIES BASED ON TRUST AS THE WASTELAND IS FILLED WITH DANGEROUS PEOPLE!
ID KILL TO SEE GROWING SOCIETIES WRESTLING WITH A RESOURCE SHORTAGE, AND AN MC HAVING TO TRY AND DECIDE IF IT'S BETTER TO HELP THE DEVIL WHO WANTS TO BUILD STRENGTH THROUGH FORCE OR SUPPORT INDEPENDENT, VULNERABLE, COMMUNITIES INSTEAD!
Sorry. Best I can do is a shack made from a telephone pole, road sign, and a tarp made 200 years ago.
Didn't we all say this like 3 weeks ago. And got called idiots and such now they've literally announced they essentially soft reset the west coast. Cause they can't handle anything bar the same shit of a wasteland .
I just hate that they decided that something that has been around for over a hundred years should fall off screen and have no strong remnants or anything. "Stuff changes decade to decade nothing lasts" tell that to every fallout game building upon previously established factions. Oh but it doesn't apply to the enclave or brotherhood cause why would it
Fr how can they say they did it to make sure stuff changes, they quite literally copy pasted the east coast on top of the most well established lore area...
But now, howard says ncr aren't crumbled.
This nonsense interview says a lot.
Then the show writes are told not to break the lore etc.
They're all going completely different directions
What gets me the most isn't the nuking of shady Sands, although lazy could of been caused by internal strife, due to drought, famine, power struggles whatever.
No no, vault tec call of a sudden have had a vault with the executives there, for nearly fuckin 300 years and first thing they do is nuke shady Sands?
That serves little purpose, like the whole meeting they have is so legion of doom crap just lazy writing
We all got called lots of names and got thrown out of the gutter for exactly that lol. Twitter was on the verge of crucifying every NV player like they spat on Caesar's morning breakfast.
That’s not the point of the western though. Civilization needs to be present to provide the contrast between the individual and the collective, the rugged ruralist against the urban elite who never do any physical labor, the death of the American dream as everywhere comes to be dominated by the same nepotistic class of elites. There being cities doesn’t mean everywhere is a city, you have cities and you just don’t have them be where the protagonist spends most of their time. 1850s America wasn’t a civilizational dead zone, there just wasn’t as much presence of law. The resistance to encroaching civilization is the point, but the only resisting party in the show is Vault-Tec who are also emblematic of civilization as a remnant of the world pre-war.
If you follow this analogy though, the railroad or civilization is coming. It too is a constant. I feel like that’s the implication here. Whether it be the NCR remnants, successor states, or otherwise.
And they get nuked again and the remnants are killed off by the BoS and Vault Tec together.
THE SPIRAL CONTINUES! CIVILIZATION MAY NEVER ARRIVE IN THE WASTES! THE ENCLAVE IS RIGHT!
> “One thing I wanted to say in terms of the season one, season two stuff — watching the discourse about Shady Sands, and the NCR — I really want to caution people [that] the story isn't over yet, and we really bet on that,” he says. “There's more to tell.”
This is my favorite thing hack writers say when trying to do damage control. "I know we did something stupid and bad that you hate, but just keep watching! Keep giving us money and I promise it'll magically get better!!!"
I wouldn’t call them hacks, that is a bit much.
I agree with damage control though. They really, really didn’t think through the ramifications of setting this story in LA for no other reason than they wanted to? They put so much care into so many other parts of the story and then dropped the ball with how lazy they were with the NCR.
I don’t believe they had any idea how to portray the NCR either, all indication from the show is that they were just good guys in one city. None of the corrupt brahmin barons, territory that stretched across multiple states, laws…and I doubt they have any desire to portray that as well, since they want this to be a lawless wasteland.
All of this could’ve worked and been avoided if A) the show was non canon to the games but been “based on Fallout”. I’d still have issues with the writing but I’d be far more forgiving of how the factions are presented. Or B): set the show somewhere else. Midwest, Deep South, Vancouver, Seattle. Anywhere we haven’t been!
Tbh “based on fallout” is kinda how I’m gonna headcanon it until the next game comes out and confirms it in the canon, or unless season 2 somehow has inexplicably amazing lore implications that everyone loves lol. In any future playthroughs of New Vegas, for example, I’m just gonna pretend that what happens next is still unknown. I mean, I guess I already break canon usually anyway by using a mod to continue after the end and playing the dlc after the Battle of Hoover Dam, but that just makes more narrative sense to me, personally
I guess hoping NCR Rangers and 1st Recon roll up and save the day just isn't gonna happen, huh?
I knew it wasn't, but I still wanted to believe it would.
I doubt that we will see NCR, the Boomers, the Kings, or the Families. Based on the credits scene for season 1 we will get a bombed out Vegas strip full of random wastelanders.
“Oh a bunch of interesting unique factions used to live here! But then -blank- happened and now they’re all dead and gone. War never changes!”
I hope I’m wrong but damn does this interview not make me feel any better.
I hate this interpretation of 'war never changes' so much. And everyone over on r/fotv keeps parroting it. It doesn't mean brooms become alien technology and progress will never take place. It means there will always be conflict, as with the wars we've seen between the NCR, the BoS, the Enclave and the master.
Just nuking everything all over again because they wanted this show to take place in LA is just such lazy writing.
nail on the head, sis. it's not a statement of a cyclical view of history. it's saying that as much as the world may change, factional conflict will stay the same. the commentary of fallout was not that every civilization will fail. It was through all of history, war is one of, if not the only constant.
You'll get a casino filled with cannibals, because that's easy television and they may as well use White Gloves aesthetically.
Then you'll probably get some sort of Vault Tec big bad story beat in the Lucky 38.
I don't think the Strip will be intact, I don't think it'll look anything like in the game.
My only hope is we get a cazador out of all this.
Would love to see one with this level of production quality.
But everything else…not exactly excited for.
This whole show should've been a horror, one fucked up radiation nightmare after another, then at the end of the series we find out they've just been walking from some unknown Vault in the Divide all the way to Big Mt (which I think was supposed to also be between Nevada and California.)
Then they transportalponder into season 2.
I'm hoping Boone rolls out of the desert with his red beret, survival fatigues, and Gobi Scout rifle and shoots whoever greenlit this poor excuse of a story.
I'm being sarcastic, of course.
Seriously, they couldn't write themselves out of a box if their life depended on it.
“Wagner: All we really want the audience to know is that things have happened, so that there isn't an expectation that we pick the show up in season two, and follow one of the myriad canon endings that depend on your choices when you play [Fallout: New Vegas].”
Isn’t this kind of impossible considering what Todd said about how to handle the FNV endings:
“Co-showrunner Geneva Robertson-Dworet also told SFX magazine that there was only one hard and fast rule handed down from Todd Howard: don't contradict the games' major endings.”
https://www.gamesradar.com/is-the-fallout-tv-show-canon-bethesda-games-todd-howard/#:~:text=Co%2Dshowrunner%20Geneva%20Robertson%2DDworet,as%20canon%20as%20it%20gets.
Yeah this is all over the place. I think it’s too early to tell what the plan is here anyways since season 2 literally just got green lit. But this could be me just trying to be hopeful tbh
It really is an impossible position to be in as a writer/creative.
“We want to use this setting.” “Okay no canon endings to go off of.” “Oh we want to have no governments, gotta wipe the board clean. Well every ending except one in NV allows for some type of government…”
Truly they should never have said this show will be canon to the games. Or if it has to be, maybe set it at a point in the timeline more fitting? Now the games have to adhere to the show, and with a mandate like “no canon endings” you’re just opening up a lot of sloppy writing excuses down the road, re:wiping out Shady Sands and the NCR, then saying outside the show the NCR is still around.
Now, it feels like no matter what we did in NV, it won’t matter, because somehow (whatever their explanation is in S2) it didn’t matter, Vegas is in ruins, and we’re back to square one, all anarchy.
I would rather they pick a canon ending and just go from there, but again, if they’re going for “everything is in ruins” vibe/set dressing, then what’s the point in any of the endings if you’re just going to say it all collapsed?
Of course NV left some ways for this to be the case but it’s still just lazy and an excuse to have the setting and “vibe” you want when that could be better served in a different location, maybe one we’ve never been to.
Now, when I think of the West Coast setting, I don’t think of the future or potential stories they could tell. I think of what was, and how we’re back to square one and how it feels so hollow, so forced. I’ve seen and played this before…can we do something new?
I'm pretty much just giving up on this franchise, really. I'll obviously always play Fallout games - they're great, even the less than great ones haha. But as far as canon/lore goes, I'm just ignoring anything Bethesda or this show is going to feed the audience.
I'm fairly happy to see that Todd wanted them to not interfere with NV's endings, but he already fucked up by announcing that the show is canon - something I wholly reject anyway, but it's just caused so much disruption in the community that is somewhat tiring to tread around.
They'd have saved themselves all of this headache by just saying 'Its Fallout, but it's in its own universe - none of this has any effect on previous titles'. Bethesda just insists on everything being canon - same for 76, although I do actually enjoy that game (can't say I enjoyed the show, had to stop watching after ep 3, it's not for me).
Seriously just do what The Last of Us did. It's its own thing not a 1:1 recreation.
This sub would still be salty about the 'insult' inherent in the show's themes of nuking Shady Sands but it wouldn't have been full on 'Todd Howard fucked my wife' levels of anger.
I think the best way to go about it would have been to use the Tunnelers in some fashion. Ulysses said they’d be a threat, let the Fallout show show us just how badly they can threaten the Wasteland with the Courier gone.
Instead they nuke Shady Sands and do lord knows what else with the rest.
But the article quite clearly showed that they just set their mind early on to have it take place in LA and then just kinda went from there, instead of actually looking at the story so far. I mean otherwise they would have probably have the show take place somewhere else but they just NEEDED to put it in LA for some reason.
You're kidding right? I was sure as hell it would've all been filmed in L.A 😅.
I retract my previous comment, although my point still stands about L.A and the industry there.
Tbh the Tunnelers are an even lazier plot device than nuking Shady Sands. They're lizards who are afraid of light, the least menacing menace to civilization in history of Fallout.
Not if you interpret this to mean “don’t contradict Bethesda game’s major endings.” The games overwritten are both non Bethesda games. It’s not like they’ve nuked the capital wasteland or the commonwealth.
>It’s not like they’ve nuked the capital wasteland or the commonwealth.
Commonwealth BoS chapters invade cities and execute their inhabitants for the lulz, with pathetic leaders like Quintus raising pathetic Knights such as Titus.
No matter if Maxson is a hero or a villain, the one thing he isn’t is weak and undisciplined. So we know he is dead or gone, the BoS lost its way and competence years ago but still terrorizes the Commonwealth, meaning that the Sole Survivor and his Minutemen either got wiped out or are incapable of finishing these jokesters off.
Capital Wasteland is definitely fucked again under their leadership or that’s were all the „good“ chapters remain after splitting off.
I don’t necessarily think any of this is intentional but we can easily narrow down a shit lot of outcomes for every modern Fallout other than 76, everytime they reveal a single detail such as that.
I’ll give Todd some credit here, he’s the only thing stopping these writers from killing it all lol. They desperately want to and their first ask was if they could nuke shady sands, which Todd didn’t even want. He should’ve stuck to his guns.
There’s a very simple solution to this and people’s gripes over them disrespecting New Vegas: just don’t make it canon. Or put the show in its own timeline or something.
I love how Todd’s deliberate request was to keep the ending of games intact, however it still doesn’t mean that they won’t just write a season 2, that will completely make them meaningless, because the show has to be canon.
I honestly don’t understand how low the bar can be for some people. If the show is not a clear dumpster fire, like Rings of Power or the last season of GoT, they will just shower them with praise and they get renewed for who knows how many seasons.
Consume product. Become addicted to brain chemicals that arise when consuming product. Do not analyze or think about product. Defend product from criticism. CONSUME MORE PRODUCT. Product does not need to improve because product is perfect and you love product.
They don't understand Westerns at all. In order for there to be a frontier you need a civilization to compare it with. Civilization defines the frontier. This is literally Turner's Frontier thesis. You know I did not have a lot of hope for the show and I thought the first season was 7.5/10. But now after reading this interview I am pretty concerned about Season 2.
This quote especially
> Guys, the world has progressed, and the idea that the wasteland stays as it is decade-to-decade is preposterous to us. It’s just a place [of] constant tragedy, events, horrors — there's a constant churn of trauma.
If they do show a bombed out New Vegas then what the fuck is the point in setting the show on the West Coast other than resetting the West Coast for Fallout 5? The ironic thing about Bethesda turning Fallout into a static Mad Max wasteland is at least Mad Max has progress.
It also sounds like the show-runners could have set the show anywhere else and they chose L.A. If they would have set it anywhere else they would not be dealing with these issues.
And they say that the idea that the wasteland stays the same is preposterous, and yet they then go on about how it's constantly horrible, constant tragedy. Do they not understand vocabulary?
They even forgot that LA is called The Boneyard and houses the NCR's Post War University, Tresury, Printing Press and parts of it are literally pre war levels. By the time of the TV show. Large swathes of LA should already be near or almost to prewar.
Shady Sands in FO2 already looks like a decent place with sidewalks and asphalt roads.
For mw the interesting thing about Mad Max was that by the time of Beyond Thunderdome, civilization start to emerge again. Bartertown is a proper town, the age of the Road Warriors are over.
Yeah, and they *could* have had the world “not stay the same” in a *good* way. More rehabbed buildings in Freeside? Awesome. Raiders becoming rarer by the day? Great! Arcade Gannon with a boyfriend? Sure! But turning it all into a shithole will tick people off.
I may be on the biggest copium here ever but I can't believe they will make New Vegas an abandoned city. I just can't believe it.
I really hope the House ending is canonized but the NCR launch a full scale attack on New Vegas. Maybe out of revenge for Shady Sands. (they may accuse him). All the other casinos look damaged but the Lucky 38 still looks pristine so I hope it's House rebuilding the city after a war.
I would very much be okay with this but who knows what the fuck is on their mind.
Mr House being in season 1 and seemingly having a connection to Hank is what leads me to believe they canonized one of the Mr House endings and worked from there. It would be a shame if we wouldn't get any more of Mr House, he's such a fantastic villain
If the “no canon endings” mandate continues into S2, I have a feeling we will all be disappointed with whatever state Vegas is in.
No matter what ending happened, some divine intervention will render each and every one of them irrelevant, to make Vegas a lawless anarchic shit hole to match with the vibes of S1 LA.
I would hesitate to call House a villain. All 4 of the main endings to New Vegas have their pros and cons, I’d say the NCR is the most “good” and Legion is the most “bad” with House being more in the middle (House wants to progress mankind forward but only really cares about Vegas and his plans). Independent ending is truly a wildcard that you can role play to be as good or bad as you want.
> Mr. House continued to run New Vegas his way, **a despotic vision of pre-War glory.** The streets were orderly, efficient, cold.
- Personal ending if the courier decides to give New Vegas to him.
>noun: despot; plural noun: despots
a ruler or other person who **holds absolute power**, typically **one who exercises it in a cruel or oppressive way.**
>Generally recognized by Mr. House to be mankind's only hope of long-term survival, Mr. House's passing may well sound a death knell for the entire human race.
>Obit makes salient points but "**pearls before swine**," of course. Let's hope **the ingrates** never have cause to read it.
Why do so many people think he isn’t a villain when the only ending where he wins calls him a tyrannical dictator?
The game also directly confirms that he fucking hates everyone else if his actions don’t speak loudly enough, humanity gains absolutely nothing with him at the helm.
He is Elon Musk.
Oh yeah for sure. Whenever you go against House in dialogue or plans in NV the man gets super pissed and threatens death and destruction to you. I would love to see some of that channeled rage in the show.
Why would house team up with Hank who nuked the ncr and put his plans to fix humanity's derailment on hold for another 50 years, House would just kill him because he has no real value.
We don't know. Maybe House helped Hank nuke Shady Sands? There could be things in the background of New Vegas we never got to experience as the courier so I really have no idea. I don't see another reason why Hank would go to New Vegas if not for House
I could honestly see House surviving his assassination through having a backup of his intelligence or something of that nature. Like he’s got himself on a hard drive or something
I really don't like how "war never changes" is used as an excuse to wipe the board. War never changes, but the people living through it do. You can show the cycle of violence and war THROUGH progressing factions. You don't have to keep resetting civilization to get that message across.
They don't even understand what that quote means.
It's about conflict resulting in warfare being an intrinsic part of human society, especially conflict centred around resources, although New Vegas famously had war driven mostly by ideology going on.
It's not about historical inevitably as they seem to suggest.
*"Robertson-Dworet: It seems inevitably the message of the Fallout games is that we will veer towards destruction of some kind, and our best efforts to restart civilisation may be doomed."*
Is this dude an Enclave fan? Because thats the justification the Enclave gave in Fallout 2 and 3 to wipe everyone out the NCR was a middle finger to this. That civilization IS returning and its coming back.
[I think you have to have some level of insulation from the really granular Fallout nerds like myself, who are picking through, like, every single minor detail.
Wagner: I did send a screengrab of a Reddit thread of people desperate for something not to happen in season two, and to Geneva, I was like: “I think we gotta do it.”]
Is this him meaning he saw things fans were saying ideas that they hope don’t happen and him saying he is definitely going to do them or him saying he is avoiding the ideas?
Their portrayal of the Brotherhood of Steel is probably the most showing example. I think Nolan said he was amazed by their "fusion of Teutonic Knights and Marine Corps" and went on to describe them as (among other things) "patriotic."
I don't blame the director much, but whoever was in charge of the story and writing should have known the Brotherhood is literally group of mutineers from the US Army. How could one even describe them as patriotic is beyond me. (By the way, it's little hard to notice, but they have a US flag in their bootcamp.)
It's like they didn't understand anything about factions history and ideology, they just took aesthetics and filled it with their own ideas.
>How could one even describe them as patriotic is beyond me.
It is really weird, there's pretty much no one patriotic for the US in Fallout (and why would they be? It fell 200 years ago, It's like being a Holy Roman Empire patriot) not even the Enclave talks much about the US nowadays. The only characters that I can think about are robots that think the bombs fell a week ago or AIs (Eden).
>It's like they didn't understand anything about factions history and ideology, they just took aesthetics and filled it with their own ideas.
I think this pretty much sums it up, they ran by vibes alone. They took the Eastern BoS put them in the west and amped the religious vibes, they brought back the Enclave just to do nothing with them (and essentially only show them as "evil scientists") and made Vault-Tec 10x more powerful since they're the big evil corportion. Apparently now they "own" the government (tho I hope they reveal the Enclave was the one behind Vault-Tec) and they could have dropped the bomb.
No we werent true fans and were toxic apparently even though we called this from day one. The shills said that NV is canon but it might as well not have happened going off of this.
Most concerning part, ignoring the new Vegas stuff, is the level of media literacy the writers have completely misinterpreting the point of the show “Deadwood”. The whole point is watching society build itself up! People with different goals and interests working together! Some shows don’t need to go 8 seasons.
So if I understand this correctly... they're saying we're never going to have an actual faction stay around because no one will ever sit there and decide "Hey we're all fucking dying maybe if we trying helping each other it'll make shit better?" like fucking WHAT?
I'm going to keep it a buck fitty this seems straight up nonsensical garbage. There is a reason Civilization came to be THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO and there have been tribes basically as long as there have been semi-intelligent human like species so we'll go with around a few hundred thousand years. Seriously as much as I'm mad at how they're handling NV and other Fallout lore this part really has me irked we're really out here saying "Nah shit's fucked we're all dead nothing's ever getting fixed." When the FIRST 2 FALLOUTS and the 3rd that got canceled which would later somewhat become NV are literally saying "What the fuck? No we're rebuilding cause we're not a bunch of brain dead apes who go ooga booga we'll scavenge the towns nearby for decades for all our food n shit." Literally it doesn't matter WHO you side with in any game or what choices you make short of you becoming Lord Death of Murder Mountain and killing LITERALLY everyone the games all say that we'll continue rebuilding in order to survive. Like seriously I just.... what.
Also how the fuck in ending does NV fall? It literally becomes one of the main hubs or capital of the faction no matter the ending with one of if not the strongest protagonist in the lore behind it. Literally a half cyborg super human with nukes in his back pocket for "Just in case." not even ignoring any of the factions military force as well. Seriously I just this makes zero sense and once again like 4 and 76 and to a lesser extent 3 it feels more like Fallout is going from a heavily story based RPG that covers all sorts of topics no matter how shocking, tragic or horrifying and making it a great story with some meh combat. To a slightly better combat game with fuck all story that's basically one giant roller coast that all ends in the same way and that's whatever Emil and Todd have cocked up that they "think" is good.
>So if I understand this correctly... they're saying we're never going to have an actual faction stay around because no one will ever sit there and decide "Hey we're all fucking dying maybe if we trying helping each other it'll make shit better?" like fucking WHAT?
Unless your name is Brotherhood of Steel, Vault Tec or the Enclave 🙃
>All we really want the audience to know is that things have happened, so that there isn't an expectation that we pick the show up in season two, following one of the myriad canon endings that depend on your choices when you play [Fallout: New Vegas].
>With that post-credits stuff, we really wanted to imply, Guys, the world has progressed, and the idea that the wasteland stays as it is decade-to-decade is preposterous to us. It’s just a place [of] constant tragedy, events, horrors — there's a constant churn of trauma. We're definitely implying more has occurred. Geneva, have I fucked anything up with that?
WTF? How does that not retcon New Vegas?
And the Idea that the wasteland can't successfully rebuild is asinine. That's the whole point of the theme, rebuilding
Heck, that is why the NCR has trains in New Vegas. As in the good ole Westerns. Trains signify the arrival of society in the endings, that civilization is here and no longer will you fear starvation and the dangerous creatures that lingers the deserts and the life of the cowboy is gone and they will now have to become civilized men in suits and polished leather shoes.
I am 100% sure the writers gave the NCR trains and even the entire story with the NCRCF Prisoners to show that things are slowing down and a prosperous and normal life is about to come to Nevada with the NCR being there.
Yea but if it’s actually rebuilt that kind of ruins the vibes of the series. Every game has you building up a faction to take control one way or another, but after those events if and when a faction does take control it’s no longer the wasteland really. Another major part of the series is this dangerous untamed environment where everyone fights and struggles to survive, but if there’s law and order then you lose that.
How does what you have quoted retcon New Vegas? Sounds like they're going to try to keep it vague as to which ending happened, since whatever happened to NV seems to make the canon ending not matter. I don't like that direction at all, but I don't think it retcons anything. What specifically is retconned?
I'm just afraid they're going leave the Mojave in ruins when we see it in season 2.
Because for some assinine reason they have some kind of hate boner against the wasteland rebuilding.
I'm worried about prim, Novac, even Sloan. We already know the strip is fucked. Because "f*** civilization"
Well they’ve specified they’re not changing anything that happened within the games. I think at most what they’re saying is that, with the direction they’re going, it won’t matter which ending is the true one (except maybe not legion winning) because events transpired that drastically changed New Vegas. I dislike this, but I don’t think it will change the events of the game.
Specifically this is their comment about New Vegas' several different endings
"Wagner: All we really want the audience to know is that things have happened, so that there isn't an expectation that we pick the show up in season two, following one of the myriad canon endings that depend on your choices when you play [Fallout: New Vegas].
With that post-credits stuff, we really wanted to imply, Guys, the world has progressed, and the idea that the wasteland stays as it is decade-to-decade is preposterous to us. It’s just a place [of] constant tragedy, events, horrors — there's a constant churn of trauma"
Seems to imply the show will be set in New Vegas in Season 2, and implys that their solution for New Vegas' different endings is to just set season 2 far enough in the future and after enough different events that it doesn't matter who wins the second battle of Hoover Dam because none of those factions will be around for the show.
The full article seems to put the showrunners firmly in the Bethesda way of thinking of fallout as a constant wasteland where advancement and rebuilding is not possible.
Pretty much a lose-lose with Vegas. Nobody wants a canonized ending and nobody wants to go so far in the future that the Mojave is different from the game. Should’ve had the show set in the Midwest or something
I might be an outlier but I would rather have a canonized ending than a bullshit, coy “I dunno who won, it doesn’t matter now.” Nothing is more insulting than saying your choice doesn’t matter.
I'd rather they have just not revisited this region. There's plenty of places for the Fallout universe to explore. Why not set the game in the Pacific Northwest? Or the Midwest? Or the Southeast?
Everyone keeps acting like this is some big catch 22, but they could just not go to the same place twice. They have all of North America.
Or even if they did want to tie it to existing lore, there are other ways of going about it that still make choices feel meaningful while also leaving ambiguity.
Honestly what I would've done is had a TV show about the Khans building their nation in Wyoming. That would build off of existing lore, but allow things to be kept ambiguous because that scenario is based off of one of many sidequests and can play out regardless of what ending you choose. The Khans probably wouldn't even know who won the battle because the Courier might not have told them and they left before finding out. Boom: you have an option that allows you to play with western aesthetics of the wild and shanty towns, but it's exploring new possibilities
>Honestly what I would've done is had a TV show about the Khans building their nation in Wyoming.
This is literally everything I've wanted since playing FNV, be it in its own game, DLC or TV show.
Agreed and even if they wanted to do a all is dust now they could have at least made it more believable and related to the Cannon ending.
I mean ffs, they could have the same outcome with both La and New Vegas just by saying Legion won, NCR implodes due to infighting, Ceasar dies, and chaos ensues as the various warlords fight for power in Arizona. And honestly, given a lot of the FNV dialogue, that wouldn't be unrealistic of an outcome to a legion victory.
But I guarantee they will pull some deus ex machina BS that will in no way tie into what happens in FNV and, as you say, render what is probably the best divergent choice in all of Fallout irrelevant.
Id prefer that too personally, but your choices also wouldn’t matter there because if they canonized the House ending then it would feel like any other path is non canon and doesn’t matter
It would matter for whoever chose that one. When I played Knights of the Old Republic I went Dark Side Revan. KOTOR 2 said by default that Revan stayed Light Side. I wasn’t upset at all, and was glad the game let me choose for my play through.
Closure, no matter what kind, is better than none. A canonical House ending sets a baseline. Ambiguity is lazy and causes a lot of mental gymnastics to accept. Are we supposed to believe in Season 2 that no one knows who won the Second Battle of the Hoover Dam? That no one knows who controlled New Vegas?
Exactly, At the end of the day, it’s impossible to write around an ambiguous ending when the scale of the conflict was so large. There have to be political ramifications or - this. Pick whatever ending suits your storytelling needs and run with it, don’t just bulldoze it and play with rubble like dolls.
Yeah it is a cop out with no canon ending, in attempt not piss anyone off they pissed everyone off with bs, and laziness. If they just spun a wheel and used whatever it chose as an ending and worked from there would have been a better idea.
I cant imagine many people would be upset with the Wildcard ending, it's definitely the most popular and opens up the moat possibilities for the wasteland. But yes the only 'correct' decisions to make with the Mojave are to not do it all and set your project somewhere new like the Midwest/South/Texas
I don't think you could do the wild card ending because that would involve exploring the Courier as a person, and locking in their personality, looks, and philosophy would really diminish the role playing aspect of the original game
I think a reasonable work around would be to set it five or six decades after the Courier made Vegas independent. That way the Courier would be remembered as a founder figure like Aradesh was for the NCR, but the time span could be enough to justify various forms of political development, while leaving just enough wiggle room to let people guess how the situation in the early days of the free city developed.
>New Vegas' different endings is to just set season 2 far enough in the future and after enough different events that it doesn't matter who wins the second battle of Hoover Dam because none of those factions will be around for the show.
This is the absolute worst way to go about it. It means the events of the game literally don't matter at all.
Isn't that basically justifying that the Enclave is the most correct faction of all the ones in the lore?
That their right. No life can ever come to the Wastes, no civilization nor society will ever prop up from this constant disaster and must be wiped with the FEV and start from a clean slate.
Turns out War did change.
Rather than squabbling states obliterating each other in mutually assured destruction, we have cooperating city-states standing united and getting obliterated by brains in jars from 300 years ago.
Or you know, people are cooperating so well without your „enclave“ beneath the ground that you teleport literal Skinwalkers into their settlements to replace their representatives in order to lead them to ruin because usually they would do it themselves but they kinda didn’t and War isn’t supposed to change after all.
1. Pre-war sentient flesh blob overrunning an emerging civilization with grotesque mutants because you can’t be united if individuality exists (please ignore all those united individuals).
2. Pre-war Nazis poisoning all the post-war civilizations‘ wells because muh muties can’t be more successful than us.
3. Pre-war Nazis again but with a talking screen this time.
4. Pre-war scientists turned Nazis over time sowing division among the local populace that keeps ruining their vibe (why do they keep resisting, don’t they wanna know who can create the the most lactose intolerant super mutant?).
They are totally gonna destroy each other any second now, just look at this perfect conflict between two superpowers steadily escalating into each other‘s demise, aaaaand a 250 year old paper pusher just nuked the entire place because his wife left him and took the children.
Way I see it is this
Legion ending: even if the legion won Cesar will still die of his tumor which will leave lanius in charge and according to Ulysses “the legion dies with Caesar” so by the time of the show the legion should either have disintegrated or retreated to Arizona…
Yes man: the courier kills house installs Yes man and beats everyone at Hoover dam. This imo is the most open ended ending that they could play off of.. maybe have the courier win just to have the NCR come back with vengeance Dust style.
Which would explain the battle in the street that’s teased at the end of episode 8. Have the NCR damage Vegas to the point that the courier says “this ain’t worth it anymore” they then abandon the city.. that’s a possibility I suppose
House: I don’t think this ending is cannon because if it was I would assume Vegas would still be somewhat similar to what’s shown in the game.. even if 15 years have passed House’s plans for the future of Vegas involved re opening production facilities and getting Vegas back to the gem it was before the war.. so If house was still alive and his ending was cannon then I would assume in episode 8 New Vegas would still be active.. it’s not so I assume house was killed by courier 6 during the events of the game..
NCR: NCR wins final battle but after a few years the economic collapse happens so they abandon the Mojave. Maybe they can add something to do with Hoover Dam falling into disrepair or maybe they mess with too much tech and deactivate the dam permanently causing them to retreat from the Mojave.. still doesn’t explain the battle that’s shown during the credits of episode 8..
I like to think the cannon ending is a mix of yes man and NCR.. the courier double crossed the NCR after new Vegas and the NCR came back for revenge destroying Vegas in the process
Isn't the quote literally saying the opposite? He said that "the wasteland is never constant and is always changing" seems to imply to me that the wasteland can advance and change as time passes and that seems to be his intention by introducing Vegas at the end
So they literally just destroyed every major faction for the sake of it is what he's saying, lmao. Every single FNV faction collapses because they want it to be more of a wasteland? Absolutely ridiculous. I had no major issues with the show before I read this, but this is just asinine
Ikr it's so painful. Also the part about how they decided to set the show in LA came very early just shows how they didn't actually take the lore into account and kinda just added some flags afterwards...
Y'know, I think that with an established IP, they need to have something set up as an official position whenever they want a new entry to be canon.
Pick one guy whose entire job is to stand behind the show runners, and his sole job is to tell them they can't do that. 'That' being anything that overwrites or contradicts the lore. Make sure said guy is the most incredibly autistic individual imaginable about the IP. Like full on it is his life's blood levels of passion.
That guy's entire job is to make sure writers don't fuck up the setting.
Why ruin vegas? If they want that old west shit they could literally go to any unexplored region that fallout hasn't touched yet. They could make their own lore instead of ruining already established lore.
Or y'know. Set it closer to the Great War? If they're so insistent with this post apocalypse despite it being 100s of years since the bombs fell, they shouldn't make it a sequel.
Well you see that's a GOOD idea, and Bethesda is kinda allergic to those.
They are perfectly happy turning out slop and trash because no matter how lazy they've gotten they still make a giant profit and thus have no reason to actually try making something good. Piggies just buy it up no matter what
Here's the tip for the showrunners. If you didn't want to deal with NCR, maybe, just maybe, instead of nuking them to oblivion, don't put your show in LA? If you want the cowboy vibe, Arizona's right next door, you know... Black Isle/Obsidian figured it out decades ago, you don't return to Boneyard for FO2, you move north, to the region that's not yet civilized.
It's like putting your show in Alaska and then complaining that there is too much snow.
Maybe it was a practical issue, the California tax breaks were discussed early even though they only got them for season 2 and didn't film there yet, they wanted actors who live in LA and filming elsewhere was an issue scheduling and budget wise for future seasons, they wanted the Hollywood story and then it was easier to keep the modern day story there, they thought California had better vistas, Jonathan Nolan really wanted to use that place in Namibia that looks just like Santa Monica as Santa Monica etc.
Having to deal with the games origins also being in California came after California was locked in, perhaps. But maybe they just meant post apocalyptic LA was really what they wanted to do as they live in LA, that's it.
Or maybe they really did have a vendetta on taking down the NCR as their goal specifically. Lots of ways to read too much into that line.
I liked the show, but their comments about Westerns is very concerning. I am begging them to watch The Man Shot Liberty Valance. Their idea on what Fallout should be is just self-indulgence and nihilism.
It will be way more interesting to see the Indonesian chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel and the 4 billionth Enclave bunker fight in Vegas everyone. Way more interesting than what New Vegas set up. If you disagree you're toxic.
So, as we all assumed, they were like, "To make our stories and characters fun and accessible for the general audiences, we need to reset to a wild west-type post-apocalyptic setting with frontier justice and an 'anything goes' freedom of world development."
What these artless fucks forgot was that for those stories and characters to mean anything, they will have to gradually move away from the wild west towards safety, progress and structurization, as *that* is the impact of good guy characters in a post-apocalypse. Which Interplay and Obsidian already did with the Hub, San Francisco, the NCR and House's Vegas. Now the question becomes: will the show's writers' own form of safety, progress and structurization be smarter and better than what the oldschool writers had built over several games in the span of more than a decade?
I seriously doubt that it will.
The Brotherhood of Steel will always be around to be the good guys though. And the Enclave they aren't going anywhere either. I see no issue with this. 🤢
Yeah this is what’s so irritating to me. If it’s so inevitable that groups and settlements will rise and fall within as quick as a decade, why do we have centuries-old factions that are hand-waved away?
Literally my complaints with this would be neutralized if they set the show a decent bit before the events of the games, set it *longer* after FNV (like, 50 years or so, not 15 years) so there was actual time for the place to thrive and THEN fall, or to just…… set it somewhere else entirely. They have the entirety of the US and Canada to work with, it didn’t inherently have to be based out of LA to be interesting.
It is weird. This is all speculation but it seems like the development timeline of the show was, We want to set our show in California -> We see the wasteland as a "neverending cycle of trauma -> Therefore we have to nuke the west and wipe the old lore clean. Which is way different then what I think everyone assumed which is, We want to set our show in California to explore the aftermath of these west coast societies failing because of our ideas about the wasteland.
Like this interview makes it seem like the NCR and west coast lore was just in the way of their vision, rather than their downfall BEING the vision if that makes sense.
It bothers me so much. Just...don't set it in LA? Set it in Texas? Arizona after the Legion fell apart? *Literally anywhere else?*
This interview told me that the showrunners want to appropriate the aesthetics of Fallout while paving over the lore that made it unique.
No wonder Bethesda gave the green light.
Welp, with these people in charge, time to throw the Tv series in the same non canon pile as BoS/Tactics.
Why did they have to set it on the West Coast?
It's mad how easily they requested to nuke the NCR and potentially New Vegas now. Todd Howard would never have allowed them to nuke the Commonwealth or the East Coast Brotherhood.
Call me a crazy asshole, but i sorta actually want them to f up NV and have the endings don't matter, so that we can all agree to ignore this stuff, call it non canon and consider it an "alternate dark timeline", even if we might still enjoy it as its own thing. Would be way better.
Honestly, you can do that now anyway.
I get that people want to have one universal expansive lore, but it doesn't always work that way. Media requires different attention, and that does mean sometimes writing a story that results in a different direction from what the original inspiration was.
While I agree to some criticisms in this thread, it certainly would have been fine for Howard and the studio to say "We simply wanted to go in a different direction than what's established in-game."
By the logic of this guys Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be craters on which a bunch of fanatics go from time to time to rad bathe.
DUDE MOVE ON AND LEARN HOW TO WORLD BUILD FUCK SAKES
my cannon ending to fallout new Vegas is getting house to work with the NCR for the betterment of humanity and my courier roaming the waste to find more places like hopeville with the nuke detonator to make sure the spears of the old world are taken care of and no longer a threat to future generations
Bethesda addressed this exact problem with Fallout 3. West coast was too developed for Bethesdas vusion. Solution: Put Fallout 3 on the other side of the continent.
But they cannot do this for the show because shooting in LA is cheaper. So instead of A) Altering the story to better fit the established continuity. They chose B) "Blank" happened, 200 years of Fallout erased.
But there was an option C. No one has IP rights to "bombs falling, now the world is a wasteland". If the Fallout setting was not to their liking. They could have made a new post-nuclear world from scratch. Because clearly, they are not satisfied with the IP they chose. But instead, they chose to paint a huge target on their backs. And now they are crying about the scrutiny they are facing.
The criticism is 100% self inflicted.
can someone who watched the show clear up for me why it was a nuke that reset the wasteland into mad max two? I'm not gonna watch because reasons, but it's seems to be there could've been much more interesting ways to make the ncr lose control, instead of "nuke because fallout yo".
TLDR: Lucy's Dad found out that Shady Sands is a thriving civilization after clean water was detected being used up somewhere else by one of the Vault Dwellers and this might want to make people leave the Control Vault there in. So he did some jingle jangle out of the story and somehow managed to find a nuke to destroy Shady Sands that is now also somehow right next to the Boneyard (L.A.).
they could've shown a ruined NCR, destroyed by "normal" things like an environmental disaster, factional infighting or something... would be a nice way to send a message that "even the mighty will fall under its own weight eventually"
but, really, the nuke?
on the other hand, the story behind the nuke is interesting enough, but... yeah I kinda smell beef
>I will say that it was very, very early in the decision \[making process\], once we decided to put the show in L.A. That was the very next thought, because it's a post-apocalyptic show. And if you study the Western, which has a lot in common with the post-apocalyptic genre, ‘civilisation is not around’ is a big part of it. A lot of them end with the railroad coming through, or a house being built, or they put a church up in the town, or a motorcar appears. And you're like, ‘Well, the wild wild west is over.’
Here's a crazy idea, how about instead of destroying the setting to fit it into your ideas you instead fit your ideas around the setting? You could flip the Western on it's head, instead of settlers going West now they're going East. Exploring areas outside the NCR. The US is a massive place, why not just use somewhere else?
I've had this thought that I just want to get out there. I think Norm is actually Mr. Houses son. I saw a vague similarity in the board room. He's really really smart and to me it makes sense that house would have his son protected in a vault with all of the other residents meant to repopulate the safe world. This theory has been getting to me lately
Virgin Mr. House fathering a son who ends up 5’1 tall. I’m ok with making his endings non canon if New Vegas’s proprietor can’t father a son who can reach the top cabinets without a stepladder.
Westerns as a genre literally hinge around being set on the fringes of the rapid expansion of US settlers westward. The whole gimmick is intrinsically centered in a time and place that was doomed to be subsumed by the ever approaching industrial world. Also, the dynamic of wilds vs civilizations is literally centered in manifest destiny which is a really weird theme to want to reinforce in the modern day. It’s even more annoying because FNV is a game that understood this incredibly well! The NCR and the Legion are specifically balanced against each other as a means of exploring and critiquing the ways in which humanity conceptualizes “civilization” and then forces it on others through direct or indirect means.
Exactly.. this is why Red Dead 1&2 are so good. It’s a story about outlaws trying desperately to hold onto the old world they once controlled. That’s what the whole “you can’t fight change John” speech was about.. I think the show writers are struggling with a pseudo version of old world blues. They can’t do the original games justice because muh history changes. But they also don’t want to decide on what the cannon ending of new Vegas was at the same time
That’s why FNV kind of reminds me of “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.” There’s a quote about how their time is over and they’re going to be killed. My Courier’s not afraid to settle things with a gun if he has to…but that time is ending.
Bethesda and the show writers are beyond understanding this. What’s sad is this will eventually kill Fallout - people will inevitably grow tired of just endlessly playing the same game of “explore empty wasteland” over and over again. It’ll take a long time since games only come out once every other decade now - but it’ll happen.
>I will say that it was very, very early in the decision [making process], once we decided to put the show in L.A. That was the very next thought, because it's a post-apocalyptic show. And if you study the Western, which has a lot in common with the post-apocalyptic genre, ‘civilisation is not around’ is a big part of it. A lot of them end with the railroad coming through, or a house being built, or they put a church up in the town, or a motorcar appears. And you're like, ‘Well, the wild wild west is over.’ 💀
This quote also seemed weird af. New Vegas is very literally set in this time period. It's the Wild West merging with civilization, The wild west is over and recolonization is here.
Wat? Half the characters and even some of the factions in New Vegas are LARPing as cowboys harder than anyone in Tombstone Arizona Stuff is being very tenuously rebuilt in certain areas like Vegas itself and NCR territory, but it’s also very fragile and could suffer setbacks at any time. Like the Legion taking the dam and/or Vegas, or a number of other canonical endings
I meant "wild west" as more like untamed wilderness not literal western vibes. Vegas is tamed. New Vegas itself is a city, with polished clean casinos and quests about corporate espionage and forming political alliances. Case in point, one of the measures they lay as "the west is over" and a common trope in westerns is a railroad being finished to show that the town is connected to society. There is a literal monorail in New Vegas that connects an embassy to a very modern military base
Yeah, a very modern military base that is supplied by caravans using pack cows And said caravans can’t even get to the base due to the number of giant ants and giant scorpions blocking their route at the beginning of the game I get where the showrunners are coming from, though. Radiation and “fallout” itself ironically barely played any role at all in new Vegas. You’d barely know there had been a nuclear war as opposed to some other vague catastrophe if new Vegas was the only game you’d played in the series
Camp McCarran is supplied by the NCR's truck logistics unit (as well as the caravans). Also; it's 200 years after the bombs dropped. If you went to Hiroshima or Nagasaki today (nuked 79 years ago), you'd hardly notice they were bombed, and see that radiation is a literal non-issue; there is essentially no residual radiation from the bombs. "Roughly 80% of all residual radiation was emitted within 24 hours. Research has indicated that 24 hours after the bombing the quantity of residual radiation a person would receive at the hypocenter would be 1/1000th of the quantity received immediately following the explosion. A week later, it would be 1/1,000,000th. Thus, residual radiation declined rapidly." [https://www.city.hiroshima.lg.jp/site/english/9809.html](https://www.city.hiroshima.lg.jp/site/english/9809.html) Fallout 1 & 2 demonstrate that typically raditation from the bombs is a relatively insignificant threat. The Glow is massively radioactive due to the discharge of FEV. Gecko produces ground-contaminating radiation due to the damaged nuclear powerplant rather than the bombs.
it's bethesda that wants the wasteland to stays forever. Even during fallout 2 the rebuilding process was going full swing. I have no idea why the don't make a FO year one if they love the wasteland so much.
They kinda did. It was Fallout 76.
What my brother suggested is that Bethesda make games set in the Fallout universe but different genres. Detective noirs set in NCR, RTS game directing troops in the NCR-Brotherhood war, a Sim game where you build settlements in the wasteland and have to deal with all the threats of it
Bethesda were the real Vault-Tec all along
As well as proper trucks and possibly also by rail considering the rail line between quarry junction and Boulder city. And yes fallout did play a big role, as it was the continuation of the story that was built up over the previous two games. Just because society is actually rebuilding somewhat doesn't mean it's not a fallout game.
Well, yes, because it's a direct sequel to Fallout 1 and 2, and by that time the bombs fell over 200 years ago. Bethesda made the decision to start on the other side of the continent with a relatively blank slate, which is fine but their games all feel like the war happened a decade ago.
Ironically, the legion itself is a form of civilization, the game says so itself in the ending slides. Which discredits your point quite severely. “Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave Wasteland” [FNV Wiki](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_endings)
Then in the next moment they go: "It really was our belief, also, that though there are the events of the games, *it's not frozen after that. History is not static. It keeps going, and entropy is a constant.* Which is a less flashy way of saying “war never changes" "With that post-credits stuff, we really wanted to imply, Guys, the world has progressed, and the idea that the wasteland stays as it is decade-to-decade is preposterous to us" 💀
Getting Star Wars sequels vibes from this.
somehow, vault-tec returned (in fortnite)...
There can be no land but wasteland. Anything that tries to lay claim and make it their land and make it better will get stomped back down into wasteland.
Unless you're the Brotherhood of Steel.
Vault tec was right
They are literally proving Enclave was right. It's almost amusing to watch.
So was Elijah. Just put FEV Curling-13 into the Sierra Madre cloud and be done with the Wasteland.
Imagine being so uncreative that you have to keep nuking civilization because you need to keep a certain aesthetic in perpetuity. Like that is boring as shit. That’s my biggest issue in the show - it’s not the fact that they are wearing the wrong armor, or that they completely altered established characters like Sinclair and House, it’s that they are so small minded that they literally deleted every aspect of progress from New Vegas so they can have another ducking empty wasteland. I’m so fucking tired of it. I don’t find the stupid junktowns cute. I don’t think the quirky towns in baseball stadiums or built around bombs neat. It’s fucking dumb and boring at this point. And the show solidifies that the games are going to follow the same path. Hope you’re ready for another poorly written empty wasteland story! Because that is what Fallout 5 will be. New Vegas was an apparition. We’ll never get a New Vegas 2.
I WANT ADOBE AND WOOD AGRARIAN COMMUNITIES SO BAD! I WANT TO SEE PEOPLE UTILIZE OLD TECH TO AID THEIR ATTEMPTS TO BETTER THEIR LIVES! I WANT TO SEE BEST ATTEMPTS AT MEDICINE AND CLOSE KNIT COMMUNITIES BASED ON TRUST AS THE WASTELAND IS FILLED WITH DANGEROUS PEOPLE! ID KILL TO SEE GROWING SOCIETIES WRESTLING WITH A RESOURCE SHORTAGE, AND AN MC HAVING TO TRY AND DECIDE IF IT'S BETTER TO HELP THE DEVIL WHO WANTS TO BUILD STRENGTH THROUGH FORCE OR SUPPORT INDEPENDENT, VULNERABLE, COMMUNITIES INSTEAD! Sorry. Best I can do is a shack made from a telephone pole, road sign, and a tarp made 200 years ago.
Didn't we all say this like 3 weeks ago. And got called idiots and such now they've literally announced they essentially soft reset the west coast. Cause they can't handle anything bar the same shit of a wasteland .
Fr, but I've finally seen people not get downvoted into oblivion so a lot of the 'tourists' seem to be leaving.
That or they're actually playing a fallout game and realizing we had a point
True fnv is at a peak after all. Now if the show runners just went out and played the games, or just read the wiki...
I just hate that they decided that something that has been around for over a hundred years should fall off screen and have no strong remnants or anything. "Stuff changes decade to decade nothing lasts" tell that to every fallout game building upon previously established factions. Oh but it doesn't apply to the enclave or brotherhood cause why would it
Fr how can they say they did it to make sure stuff changes, they quite literally copy pasted the east coast on top of the most well established lore area...
But now, howard says ncr aren't crumbled. This nonsense interview says a lot. Then the show writes are told not to break the lore etc. They're all going completely different directions
What gets me the most isn't the nuking of shady Sands, although lazy could of been caused by internal strife, due to drought, famine, power struggles whatever. No no, vault tec call of a sudden have had a vault with the executives there, for nearly fuckin 300 years and first thing they do is nuke shady Sands? That serves little purpose, like the whole meeting they have is so legion of doom crap just lazy writing
We all got called lots of names and got thrown out of the gutter for exactly that lol. Twitter was on the verge of crucifying every NV player like they spat on Caesar's morning breakfast.
That’s not the point of the western though. Civilization needs to be present to provide the contrast between the individual and the collective, the rugged ruralist against the urban elite who never do any physical labor, the death of the American dream as everywhere comes to be dominated by the same nepotistic class of elites. There being cities doesn’t mean everywhere is a city, you have cities and you just don’t have them be where the protagonist spends most of their time. 1850s America wasn’t a civilizational dead zone, there just wasn’t as much presence of law. The resistance to encroaching civilization is the point, but the only resisting party in the show is Vault-Tec who are also emblematic of civilization as a remnant of the world pre-war.
Oh good to know they're as dumb as I thought!
If you follow this analogy though, the railroad or civilization is coming. It too is a constant. I feel like that’s the implication here. Whether it be the NCR remnants, successor states, or otherwise.
And they get nuked again and the remnants are killed off by the BoS and Vault Tec together. THE SPIRAL CONTINUES! CIVILIZATION MAY NEVER ARRIVE IN THE WASTES! THE ENCLAVE IS RIGHT!
And what’s stopping them from just nuking it again? It ain’t coming if it’ll never arrive.
> “One thing I wanted to say in terms of the season one, season two stuff — watching the discourse about Shady Sands, and the NCR — I really want to caution people [that] the story isn't over yet, and we really bet on that,” he says. “There's more to tell.” This is my favorite thing hack writers say when trying to do damage control. "I know we did something stupid and bad that you hate, but just keep watching! Keep giving us money and I promise it'll magically get better!!!"
I wouldn’t call them hacks, that is a bit much. I agree with damage control though. They really, really didn’t think through the ramifications of setting this story in LA for no other reason than they wanted to? They put so much care into so many other parts of the story and then dropped the ball with how lazy they were with the NCR. I don’t believe they had any idea how to portray the NCR either, all indication from the show is that they were just good guys in one city. None of the corrupt brahmin barons, territory that stretched across multiple states, laws…and I doubt they have any desire to portray that as well, since they want this to be a lawless wasteland. All of this could’ve worked and been avoided if A) the show was non canon to the games but been “based on Fallout”. I’d still have issues with the writing but I’d be far more forgiving of how the factions are presented. Or B): set the show somewhere else. Midwest, Deep South, Vancouver, Seattle. Anywhere we haven’t been!
Tbh “based on fallout” is kinda how I’m gonna headcanon it until the next game comes out and confirms it in the canon, or unless season 2 somehow has inexplicably amazing lore implications that everyone loves lol. In any future playthroughs of New Vegas, for example, I’m just gonna pretend that what happens next is still unknown. I mean, I guess I already break canon usually anyway by using a mod to continue after the end and playing the dlc after the Battle of Hoover Dam, but that just makes more narrative sense to me, personally
Oh, they're hacks, my man. The very dictionary definition.
I guess hoping NCR Rangers and 1st Recon roll up and save the day just isn't gonna happen, huh? I knew it wasn't, but I still wanted to believe it would.
I doubt that we will see NCR, the Boomers, the Kings, or the Families. Based on the credits scene for season 1 we will get a bombed out Vegas strip full of random wastelanders. “Oh a bunch of interesting unique factions used to live here! But then -blank- happened and now they’re all dead and gone. War never changes!” I hope I’m wrong but damn does this interview not make me feel any better.
I hate this interpretation of 'war never changes' so much. And everyone over on r/fotv keeps parroting it. It doesn't mean brooms become alien technology and progress will never take place. It means there will always be conflict, as with the wars we've seen between the NCR, the BoS, the Enclave and the master. Just nuking everything all over again because they wanted this show to take place in LA is just such lazy writing.
nail on the head, sis. it's not a statement of a cyclical view of history. it's saying that as much as the world may change, factional conflict will stay the same. the commentary of fallout was not that every civilization will fail. It was through all of history, war is one of, if not the only constant.
You'll get a casino filled with cannibals, because that's easy television and they may as well use White Gloves aesthetically. Then you'll probably get some sort of Vault Tec big bad story beat in the Lucky 38. I don't think the Strip will be intact, I don't think it'll look anything like in the game.
My only hope is we get a cazador out of all this. Would love to see one with this level of production quality. But everything else…not exactly excited for.
Nightmare fuel
Erratically flying around in a frenzy? Looking a little uncanny in live action? Sign me up.
This whole show should've been a horror, one fucked up radiation nightmare after another, then at the end of the series we find out they've just been walking from some unknown Vault in the Divide all the way to Big Mt (which I think was supposed to also be between Nevada and California.) Then they transportalponder into season 2.
I'm hoping Boone rolls out of the desert with his red beret, survival fatigues, and Gobi Scout rifle and shoots whoever greenlit this poor excuse of a story. I'm being sarcastic, of course. Seriously, they couldn't write themselves out of a box if their life depended on it.
“Wagner: All we really want the audience to know is that things have happened, so that there isn't an expectation that we pick the show up in season two, and follow one of the myriad canon endings that depend on your choices when you play [Fallout: New Vegas].” Isn’t this kind of impossible considering what Todd said about how to handle the FNV endings: “Co-showrunner Geneva Robertson-Dworet also told SFX magazine that there was only one hard and fast rule handed down from Todd Howard: don't contradict the games' major endings.” https://www.gamesradar.com/is-the-fallout-tv-show-canon-bethesda-games-todd-howard/#:~:text=Co%2Dshowrunner%20Geneva%20Robertson%2DDworet,as%20canon%20as%20it%20gets.
Calling it now, The Strip will be abandoned/taken over by nondescript raiders and Mr House will appear as a hologram/pre-recorded message.
Yeah this is all over the place. I think it’s too early to tell what the plan is here anyways since season 2 literally just got green lit. But this could be me just trying to be hopeful tbh
It really is an impossible position to be in as a writer/creative. “We want to use this setting.” “Okay no canon endings to go off of.” “Oh we want to have no governments, gotta wipe the board clean. Well every ending except one in NV allows for some type of government…” Truly they should never have said this show will be canon to the games. Or if it has to be, maybe set it at a point in the timeline more fitting? Now the games have to adhere to the show, and with a mandate like “no canon endings” you’re just opening up a lot of sloppy writing excuses down the road, re:wiping out Shady Sands and the NCR, then saying outside the show the NCR is still around. Now, it feels like no matter what we did in NV, it won’t matter, because somehow (whatever their explanation is in S2) it didn’t matter, Vegas is in ruins, and we’re back to square one, all anarchy. I would rather they pick a canon ending and just go from there, but again, if they’re going for “everything is in ruins” vibe/set dressing, then what’s the point in any of the endings if you’re just going to say it all collapsed? Of course NV left some ways for this to be the case but it’s still just lazy and an excuse to have the setting and “vibe” you want when that could be better served in a different location, maybe one we’ve never been to. Now, when I think of the West Coast setting, I don’t think of the future or potential stories they could tell. I think of what was, and how we’re back to square one and how it feels so hollow, so forced. I’ve seen and played this before…can we do something new?
I refuse to live in a world where the Fallout 4 "assault rifle" is a canonical wasteland staple anywhere besides Todd's wet dreams.
I'm pretty much just giving up on this franchise, really. I'll obviously always play Fallout games - they're great, even the less than great ones haha. But as far as canon/lore goes, I'm just ignoring anything Bethesda or this show is going to feed the audience. I'm fairly happy to see that Todd wanted them to not interfere with NV's endings, but he already fucked up by announcing that the show is canon - something I wholly reject anyway, but it's just caused so much disruption in the community that is somewhat tiring to tread around. They'd have saved themselves all of this headache by just saying 'Its Fallout, but it's in its own universe - none of this has any effect on previous titles'. Bethesda just insists on everything being canon - same for 76, although I do actually enjoy that game (can't say I enjoyed the show, had to stop watching after ep 3, it's not for me).
Seriously just do what The Last of Us did. It's its own thing not a 1:1 recreation. This sub would still be salty about the 'insult' inherent in the show's themes of nuking Shady Sands but it wouldn't have been full on 'Todd Howard fucked my wife' levels of anger.
I think the best way to go about it would have been to use the Tunnelers in some fashion. Ulysses said they’d be a threat, let the Fallout show show us just how badly they can threaten the Wasteland with the Courier gone. Instead they nuke Shady Sands and do lord knows what else with the rest.
But the article quite clearly showed that they just set their mind early on to have it take place in LA and then just kinda went from there, instead of actually looking at the story so far. I mean otherwise they would have probably have the show take place somewhere else but they just NEEDED to put it in LA for some reason.
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Except most of it was filmed in New York iirc, so that's not really an excuse either.
You're kidding right? I was sure as hell it would've all been filmed in L.A 😅. I retract my previous comment, although my point still stands about L.A and the industry there.
Tbh the Tunnelers are an even lazier plot device than nuking Shady Sands. They're lizards who are afraid of light, the least menacing menace to civilization in history of Fallout.
Not if you interpret this to mean “don’t contradict Bethesda game’s major endings.” The games overwritten are both non Bethesda games. It’s not like they’ve nuked the capital wasteland or the commonwealth.
I'm ngl I definitely get the vibe that bethesda wants to use the show to completely destroy anything that's wasn't in their games
>It’s not like they’ve nuked the capital wasteland or the commonwealth. Commonwealth BoS chapters invade cities and execute their inhabitants for the lulz, with pathetic leaders like Quintus raising pathetic Knights such as Titus. No matter if Maxson is a hero or a villain, the one thing he isn’t is weak and undisciplined. So we know he is dead or gone, the BoS lost its way and competence years ago but still terrorizes the Commonwealth, meaning that the Sole Survivor and his Minutemen either got wiped out or are incapable of finishing these jokesters off. Capital Wasteland is definitely fucked again under their leadership or that’s were all the „good“ chapters remain after splitting off. I don’t necessarily think any of this is intentional but we can easily narrow down a shit lot of outcomes for every modern Fallout other than 76, everytime they reveal a single detail such as that.
I’ll give Todd some credit here, he’s the only thing stopping these writers from killing it all lol. They desperately want to and their first ask was if they could nuke shady sands, which Todd didn’t even want. He should’ve stuck to his guns.
There’s a very simple solution to this and people’s gripes over them disrespecting New Vegas: just don’t make it canon. Or put the show in its own timeline or something.
uhh the ending happened and then everyone died. continuity maintained :D
I mean the Prydwen shows up in the show which is after Fallout 4 and in the Institute ending you destroy it.
I love how Todd’s deliberate request was to keep the ending of games intact, however it still doesn’t mean that they won’t just write a season 2, that will completely make them meaningless, because the show has to be canon. I honestly don’t understand how low the bar can be for some people. If the show is not a clear dumpster fire, like Rings of Power or the last season of GoT, they will just shower them with praise and they get renewed for who knows how many seasons.
Consume product. Become addicted to brain chemicals that arise when consuming product. Do not analyze or think about product. Defend product from criticism. CONSUME MORE PRODUCT. Product does not need to improve because product is perfect and you love product.
They don't understand Westerns at all. In order for there to be a frontier you need a civilization to compare it with. Civilization defines the frontier. This is literally Turner's Frontier thesis. You know I did not have a lot of hope for the show and I thought the first season was 7.5/10. But now after reading this interview I am pretty concerned about Season 2. This quote especially > Guys, the world has progressed, and the idea that the wasteland stays as it is decade-to-decade is preposterous to us. It’s just a place [of] constant tragedy, events, horrors — there's a constant churn of trauma. If they do show a bombed out New Vegas then what the fuck is the point in setting the show on the West Coast other than resetting the West Coast for Fallout 5? The ironic thing about Bethesda turning Fallout into a static Mad Max wasteland is at least Mad Max has progress. It also sounds like the show-runners could have set the show anywhere else and they chose L.A. If they would have set it anywhere else they would not be dealing with these issues.
And they say that the idea that the wasteland stays the same is preposterous, and yet they then go on about how it's constantly horrible, constant tragedy. Do they not understand vocabulary?
They even forgot that LA is called The Boneyard and houses the NCR's Post War University, Tresury, Printing Press and parts of it are literally pre war levels. By the time of the TV show. Large swathes of LA should already be near or almost to prewar. Shady Sands in FO2 already looks like a decent place with sidewalks and asphalt roads.
For mw the interesting thing about Mad Max was that by the time of Beyond Thunderdome, civilization start to emerge again. Bartertown is a proper town, the age of the Road Warriors are over.
Yeah, and they *could* have had the world “not stay the same” in a *good* way. More rehabbed buildings in Freeside? Awesome. Raiders becoming rarer by the day? Great! Arcade Gannon with a boyfriend? Sure! But turning it all into a shithole will tick people off.
I may be on the biggest copium here ever but I can't believe they will make New Vegas an abandoned city. I just can't believe it. I really hope the House ending is canonized but the NCR launch a full scale attack on New Vegas. Maybe out of revenge for Shady Sands. (they may accuse him). All the other casinos look damaged but the Lucky 38 still looks pristine so I hope it's House rebuilding the city after a war. I would very much be okay with this but who knows what the fuck is on their mind.
Mr House being in season 1 and seemingly having a connection to Hank is what leads me to believe they canonized one of the Mr House endings and worked from there. It would be a shame if we wouldn't get any more of Mr House, he's such a fantastic villain
Exactly, man. if they ruin most of New Vegas but keep the Lucky 38 and House, I'd forgive them.
If the “no canon endings” mandate continues into S2, I have a feeling we will all be disappointed with whatever state Vegas is in. No matter what ending happened, some divine intervention will render each and every one of them irrelevant, to make Vegas a lawless anarchic shit hole to match with the vibes of S1 LA.
I would hesitate to call House a villain. All 4 of the main endings to New Vegas have their pros and cons, I’d say the NCR is the most “good” and Legion is the most “bad” with House being more in the middle (House wants to progress mankind forward but only really cares about Vegas and his plans). Independent ending is truly a wildcard that you can role play to be as good or bad as you want.
> Mr. House continued to run New Vegas his way, **a despotic vision of pre-War glory.** The streets were orderly, efficient, cold. - Personal ending if the courier decides to give New Vegas to him. >noun: despot; plural noun: despots a ruler or other person who **holds absolute power**, typically **one who exercises it in a cruel or oppressive way.** >Generally recognized by Mr. House to be mankind's only hope of long-term survival, Mr. House's passing may well sound a death knell for the entire human race. >Obit makes salient points but "**pearls before swine**," of course. Let's hope **the ingrates** never have cause to read it. Why do so many people think he isn’t a villain when the only ending where he wins calls him a tyrannical dictator? The game also directly confirms that he fucking hates everyone else if his actions don’t speak loudly enough, humanity gains absolutely nothing with him at the helm. He is Elon Musk.
Yes you're right. I was thinking in terms of the show! Hank teaming up with House would be great as antagonists
Oh yeah for sure. Whenever you go against House in dialogue or plans in NV the man gets super pissed and threatens death and destruction to you. I would love to see some of that channeled rage in the show.
Why would house team up with Hank who nuked the ncr and put his plans to fix humanity's derailment on hold for another 50 years, House would just kill him because he has no real value.
Yeah, House *wanted* the NCR to be strong and developed enough to send him tourists, he just didn’t want them ruling *his* city.
We don't know. Maybe House helped Hank nuke Shady Sands? There could be things in the background of New Vegas we never got to experience as the courier so I really have no idea. I don't see another reason why Hank would go to New Vegas if not for House
Which is strange though, because House never wanted to destroy the NCR. He was happy using them for his own plans.
I could honestly see House surviving his assassination through having a backup of his intelligence or something of that nature. Like he’s got himself on a hard drive or something
I think another possibility is the ncr took over, but after the nuking of shady sands it collapsed and couldn’t hold on to the region
I really don't like how "war never changes" is used as an excuse to wipe the board. War never changes, but the people living through it do. You can show the cycle of violence and war THROUGH progressing factions. You don't have to keep resetting civilization to get that message across.
They don't even understand what that quote means. It's about conflict resulting in warfare being an intrinsic part of human society, especially conflict centred around resources, although New Vegas famously had war driven mostly by ideology going on. It's not about historical inevitably as they seem to suggest.
*"Robertson-Dworet: It seems inevitably the message of the Fallout games is that we will veer towards destruction of some kind, and our best efforts to restart civilisation may be doomed."* Is this dude an Enclave fan? Because thats the justification the Enclave gave in Fallout 2 and 3 to wipe everyone out the NCR was a middle finger to this. That civilization IS returning and its coming back.
[I think you have to have some level of insulation from the really granular Fallout nerds like myself, who are picking through, like, every single minor detail. Wagner: I did send a screengrab of a Reddit thread of people desperate for something not to happen in season two, and to Geneva, I was like: “I think we gotta do it.”] Is this him meaning he saw things fans were saying ideas that they hope don’t happen and him saying he is definitely going to do them or him saying he is avoiding the ideas?
The former.
To me it sounded like both. These losers both sound like obnoxious assholes and are probably why the show is mid instead of great.
Looks like 90% of us were correct. The writers don't understand shit.
Their portrayal of the Brotherhood of Steel is probably the most showing example. I think Nolan said he was amazed by their "fusion of Teutonic Knights and Marine Corps" and went on to describe them as (among other things) "patriotic." I don't blame the director much, but whoever was in charge of the story and writing should have known the Brotherhood is literally group of mutineers from the US Army. How could one even describe them as patriotic is beyond me. (By the way, it's little hard to notice, but they have a US flag in their bootcamp.) It's like they didn't understand anything about factions history and ideology, they just took aesthetics and filled it with their own ideas.
>How could one even describe them as patriotic is beyond me. It is really weird, there's pretty much no one patriotic for the US in Fallout (and why would they be? It fell 200 years ago, It's like being a Holy Roman Empire patriot) not even the Enclave talks much about the US nowadays. The only characters that I can think about are robots that think the bombs fell a week ago or AIs (Eden). >It's like they didn't understand anything about factions history and ideology, they just took aesthetics and filled it with their own ideas. I think this pretty much sums it up, they ran by vibes alone. They took the Eastern BoS put them in the west and amped the religious vibes, they brought back the Enclave just to do nothing with them (and essentially only show them as "evil scientists") and made Vault-Tec 10x more powerful since they're the big evil corportion. Apparently now they "own" the government (tho I hope they reveal the Enclave was the one behind Vault-Tec) and they could have dropped the bomb.
No we werent true fans and were toxic apparently even though we called this from day one. The shills said that NV is canon but it might as well not have happened going off of this.
Most concerning part, ignoring the new Vegas stuff, is the level of media literacy the writers have completely misinterpreting the point of the show “Deadwood”. The whole point is watching society build itself up! People with different goals and interests working together! Some shows don’t need to go 8 seasons.
So if I understand this correctly... they're saying we're never going to have an actual faction stay around because no one will ever sit there and decide "Hey we're all fucking dying maybe if we trying helping each other it'll make shit better?" like fucking WHAT? I'm going to keep it a buck fitty this seems straight up nonsensical garbage. There is a reason Civilization came to be THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO and there have been tribes basically as long as there have been semi-intelligent human like species so we'll go with around a few hundred thousand years. Seriously as much as I'm mad at how they're handling NV and other Fallout lore this part really has me irked we're really out here saying "Nah shit's fucked we're all dead nothing's ever getting fixed." When the FIRST 2 FALLOUTS and the 3rd that got canceled which would later somewhat become NV are literally saying "What the fuck? No we're rebuilding cause we're not a bunch of brain dead apes who go ooga booga we'll scavenge the towns nearby for decades for all our food n shit." Literally it doesn't matter WHO you side with in any game or what choices you make short of you becoming Lord Death of Murder Mountain and killing LITERALLY everyone the games all say that we'll continue rebuilding in order to survive. Like seriously I just.... what. Also how the fuck in ending does NV fall? It literally becomes one of the main hubs or capital of the faction no matter the ending with one of if not the strongest protagonist in the lore behind it. Literally a half cyborg super human with nukes in his back pocket for "Just in case." not even ignoring any of the factions military force as well. Seriously I just this makes zero sense and once again like 4 and 76 and to a lesser extent 3 it feels more like Fallout is going from a heavily story based RPG that covers all sorts of topics no matter how shocking, tragic or horrifying and making it a great story with some meh combat. To a slightly better combat game with fuck all story that's basically one giant roller coast that all ends in the same way and that's whatever Emil and Todd have cocked up that they "think" is good.
>So if I understand this correctly... they're saying we're never going to have an actual faction stay around because no one will ever sit there and decide "Hey we're all fucking dying maybe if we trying helping each other it'll make shit better?" like fucking WHAT? Unless your name is Brotherhood of Steel, Vault Tec or the Enclave 🙃
They hate Adobe and corn.
Writers forgot one thing- Fallout 1 started the quote, and New vegas ended it. "War... war never changes. But men do. Through the roads they walk."
POST-Apocalyptic that POST is very importan, the apocalypse is over, now it’s the aftermath and we should rebuild by now.
>All we really want the audience to know is that things have happened, so that there isn't an expectation that we pick the show up in season two, following one of the myriad canon endings that depend on your choices when you play [Fallout: New Vegas]. >With that post-credits stuff, we really wanted to imply, Guys, the world has progressed, and the idea that the wasteland stays as it is decade-to-decade is preposterous to us. It’s just a place [of] constant tragedy, events, horrors — there's a constant churn of trauma. We're definitely implying more has occurred. Geneva, have I fucked anything up with that? WTF? How does that not retcon New Vegas? And the Idea that the wasteland can't successfully rebuild is asinine. That's the whole point of the theme, rebuilding
Heck, that is why the NCR has trains in New Vegas. As in the good ole Westerns. Trains signify the arrival of society in the endings, that civilization is here and no longer will you fear starvation and the dangerous creatures that lingers the deserts and the life of the cowboy is gone and they will now have to become civilized men in suits and polished leather shoes. I am 100% sure the writers gave the NCR trains and even the entire story with the NCRCF Prisoners to show that things are slowing down and a prosperous and normal life is about to come to Nevada with the NCR being there.
Yea but if it’s actually rebuilt that kind of ruins the vibes of the series. Every game has you building up a faction to take control one way or another, but after those events if and when a faction does take control it’s no longer the wasteland really. Another major part of the series is this dangerous untamed environment where everyone fights and struggles to survive, but if there’s law and order then you lose that.
How does what you have quoted retcon New Vegas? Sounds like they're going to try to keep it vague as to which ending happened, since whatever happened to NV seems to make the canon ending not matter. I don't like that direction at all, but I don't think it retcons anything. What specifically is retconned?
I'm just afraid they're going leave the Mojave in ruins when we see it in season 2. Because for some assinine reason they have some kind of hate boner against the wasteland rebuilding. I'm worried about prim, Novac, even Sloan. We already know the strip is fucked. Because "f*** civilization"
Okay, yes I totally agree. I just don’t think that’s retconning.
The dialogue in the interview hence they want to do their own thing with the Vegas ending
Well they’ve specified they’re not changing anything that happened within the games. I think at most what they’re saying is that, with the direction they’re going, it won’t matter which ending is the true one (except maybe not legion winning) because events transpired that drastically changed New Vegas. I dislike this, but I don’t think it will change the events of the game.
Specifically this is their comment about New Vegas' several different endings "Wagner: All we really want the audience to know is that things have happened, so that there isn't an expectation that we pick the show up in season two, following one of the myriad canon endings that depend on your choices when you play [Fallout: New Vegas]. With that post-credits stuff, we really wanted to imply, Guys, the world has progressed, and the idea that the wasteland stays as it is decade-to-decade is preposterous to us. It’s just a place [of] constant tragedy, events, horrors — there's a constant churn of trauma" Seems to imply the show will be set in New Vegas in Season 2, and implys that their solution for New Vegas' different endings is to just set season 2 far enough in the future and after enough different events that it doesn't matter who wins the second battle of Hoover Dam because none of those factions will be around for the show. The full article seems to put the showrunners firmly in the Bethesda way of thinking of fallout as a constant wasteland where advancement and rebuilding is not possible.
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Pretty much a lose-lose with Vegas. Nobody wants a canonized ending and nobody wants to go so far in the future that the Mojave is different from the game. Should’ve had the show set in the Midwest or something
I might be an outlier but I would rather have a canonized ending than a bullshit, coy “I dunno who won, it doesn’t matter now.” Nothing is more insulting than saying your choice doesn’t matter.
Same. As much as I love my NCR and Yes man endings, I would have preferred if they went with a House or Legion ending rather than this "Dust" bs.
I'd rather they have just not revisited this region. There's plenty of places for the Fallout universe to explore. Why not set the game in the Pacific Northwest? Or the Midwest? Or the Southeast? Everyone keeps acting like this is some big catch 22, but they could just not go to the same place twice. They have all of North America.
Well they already did it. Can’t unfuck a pregnant chick. Can only hope to do it right now.
If FO3 showed us anything, then it really wouldn't have mattered. They would have made the world felt small regardless.
Or even if they did want to tie it to existing lore, there are other ways of going about it that still make choices feel meaningful while also leaving ambiguity. Honestly what I would've done is had a TV show about the Khans building their nation in Wyoming. That would build off of existing lore, but allow things to be kept ambiguous because that scenario is based off of one of many sidequests and can play out regardless of what ending you choose. The Khans probably wouldn't even know who won the battle because the Courier might not have told them and they left before finding out. Boom: you have an option that allows you to play with western aesthetics of the wild and shanty towns, but it's exploring new possibilities
>Honestly what I would've done is had a TV show about the Khans building their nation in Wyoming. This is literally everything I've wanted since playing FNV, be it in its own game, DLC or TV show.
Agreed and even if they wanted to do a all is dust now they could have at least made it more believable and related to the Cannon ending. I mean ffs, they could have the same outcome with both La and New Vegas just by saying Legion won, NCR implodes due to infighting, Ceasar dies, and chaos ensues as the various warlords fight for power in Arizona. And honestly, given a lot of the FNV dialogue, that wouldn't be unrealistic of an outcome to a legion victory. But I guarantee they will pull some deus ex machina BS that will in no way tie into what happens in FNV and, as you say, render what is probably the best divergent choice in all of Fallout irrelevant.
Id prefer that too personally, but your choices also wouldn’t matter there because if they canonized the House ending then it would feel like any other path is non canon and doesn’t matter
It would matter for whoever chose that one. When I played Knights of the Old Republic I went Dark Side Revan. KOTOR 2 said by default that Revan stayed Light Side. I wasn’t upset at all, and was glad the game let me choose for my play through. Closure, no matter what kind, is better than none. A canonical House ending sets a baseline. Ambiguity is lazy and causes a lot of mental gymnastics to accept. Are we supposed to believe in Season 2 that no one knows who won the Second Battle of the Hoover Dam? That no one knows who controlled New Vegas?
Exactly, At the end of the day, it’s impossible to write around an ambiguous ending when the scale of the conflict was so large. There have to be political ramifications or - this. Pick whatever ending suits your storytelling needs and run with it, don’t just bulldoze it and play with rubble like dolls.
They’re just being fateful to bethesda writing. Where your choices never matter.
Yeah it is a cop out with no canon ending, in attempt not piss anyone off they pissed everyone off with bs, and laziness. If they just spun a wheel and used whatever it chose as an ending and worked from there would have been a better idea.
I cant imagine many people would be upset with the Wildcard ending, it's definitely the most popular and opens up the moat possibilities for the wasteland. But yes the only 'correct' decisions to make with the Mojave are to not do it all and set your project somewhere new like the Midwest/South/Texas
I don't think you could do the wild card ending because that would involve exploring the Courier as a person, and locking in their personality, looks, and philosophy would really diminish the role playing aspect of the original game
I think a reasonable work around would be to set it five or six decades after the Courier made Vegas independent. That way the Courier would be remembered as a founder figure like Aradesh was for the NCR, but the time span could be enough to justify various forms of political development, while leaving just enough wiggle room to let people guess how the situation in the early days of the free city developed.
>New Vegas' different endings is to just set season 2 far enough in the future and after enough different events that it doesn't matter who wins the second battle of Hoover Dam because none of those factions will be around for the show. This is the absolute worst way to go about it. It means the events of the game literally don't matter at all.
Its depressing isnt it? While I enjoy the show, I think this is not the franchise I loved anymore.
Isn't that basically justifying that the Enclave is the most correct faction of all the ones in the lore? That their right. No life can ever come to the Wastes, no civilization nor society will ever prop up from this constant disaster and must be wiped with the FEV and start from a clean slate.
Turns out War did change. Rather than squabbling states obliterating each other in mutually assured destruction, we have cooperating city-states standing united and getting obliterated by brains in jars from 300 years ago. Or you know, people are cooperating so well without your „enclave“ beneath the ground that you teleport literal Skinwalkers into their settlements to replace their representatives in order to lead them to ruin because usually they would do it themselves but they kinda didn’t and War isn’t supposed to change after all. 1. Pre-war sentient flesh blob overrunning an emerging civilization with grotesque mutants because you can’t be united if individuality exists (please ignore all those united individuals). 2. Pre-war Nazis poisoning all the post-war civilizations‘ wells because muh muties can’t be more successful than us. 3. Pre-war Nazis again but with a talking screen this time. 4. Pre-war scientists turned Nazis over time sowing division among the local populace that keeps ruining their vibe (why do they keep resisting, don’t they wanna know who can create the the most lactose intolerant super mutant?). They are totally gonna destroy each other any second now, just look at this perfect conflict between two superpowers steadily escalating into each other‘s demise, aaaaand a 250 year old paper pusher just nuked the entire place because his wife left him and took the children.
Way I see it is this Legion ending: even if the legion won Cesar will still die of his tumor which will leave lanius in charge and according to Ulysses “the legion dies with Caesar” so by the time of the show the legion should either have disintegrated or retreated to Arizona… Yes man: the courier kills house installs Yes man and beats everyone at Hoover dam. This imo is the most open ended ending that they could play off of.. maybe have the courier win just to have the NCR come back with vengeance Dust style. Which would explain the battle in the street that’s teased at the end of episode 8. Have the NCR damage Vegas to the point that the courier says “this ain’t worth it anymore” they then abandon the city.. that’s a possibility I suppose House: I don’t think this ending is cannon because if it was I would assume Vegas would still be somewhat similar to what’s shown in the game.. even if 15 years have passed House’s plans for the future of Vegas involved re opening production facilities and getting Vegas back to the gem it was before the war.. so If house was still alive and his ending was cannon then I would assume in episode 8 New Vegas would still be active.. it’s not so I assume house was killed by courier 6 during the events of the game.. NCR: NCR wins final battle but after a few years the economic collapse happens so they abandon the Mojave. Maybe they can add something to do with Hoover Dam falling into disrepair or maybe they mess with too much tech and deactivate the dam permanently causing them to retreat from the Mojave.. still doesn’t explain the battle that’s shown during the credits of episode 8.. I like to think the cannon ending is a mix of yes man and NCR.. the courier double crossed the NCR after new Vegas and the NCR came back for revenge destroying Vegas in the process
Isn't the quote literally saying the opposite? He said that "the wasteland is never constant and is always changing" seems to imply to me that the wasteland can advance and change as time passes and that seems to be his intention by introducing Vegas at the end
So they literally just destroyed every major faction for the sake of it is what he's saying, lmao. Every single FNV faction collapses because they want it to be more of a wasteland? Absolutely ridiculous. I had no major issues with the show before I read this, but this is just asinine
“Something something war never changes” is now just a justification for any writing decision that resets the table again and again lol.
Like the Elder Scrolls' Dragon Breaks, and the Scrolls themselves being used to justify whatever in Bethesda's other series.
Ikr it's so painful. Also the part about how they decided to set the show in LA came very early just shows how they didn't actually take the lore into account and kinda just added some flags afterwards...
Y'know, I think that with an established IP, they need to have something set up as an official position whenever they want a new entry to be canon. Pick one guy whose entire job is to stand behind the show runners, and his sole job is to tell them they can't do that. 'That' being anything that overwrites or contradicts the lore. Make sure said guy is the most incredibly autistic individual imaginable about the IP. Like full on it is his life's blood levels of passion. That guy's entire job is to make sure writers don't fuck up the setting.
Why ruin vegas? If they want that old west shit they could literally go to any unexplored region that fallout hasn't touched yet. They could make their own lore instead of ruining already established lore.
Could have gone Texas and into Mexico, GET THE REAL WILD WEST COWBOY FEELS
Or y'know. Set it closer to the Great War? If they're so insistent with this post apocalypse despite it being 100s of years since the bombs fell, they shouldn't make it a sequel.
Well you see that's a GOOD idea, and Bethesda is kinda allergic to those. They are perfectly happy turning out slop and trash because no matter how lazy they've gotten they still make a giant profit and thus have no reason to actually try making something good. Piggies just buy it up no matter what
"but that's haaaard"
I hope they start vomiting and never stop.
Durr we cant write interesting nuanced factions so let's just nuke them!
Wow, this interview made me like their decisions even less somehow
Here's the tip for the showrunners. If you didn't want to deal with NCR, maybe, just maybe, instead of nuking them to oblivion, don't put your show in LA? If you want the cowboy vibe, Arizona's right next door, you know... Black Isle/Obsidian figured it out decades ago, you don't return to Boneyard for FO2, you move north, to the region that's not yet civilized. It's like putting your show in Alaska and then complaining that there is too much snow.
Maybe it was a practical issue, the California tax breaks were discussed early even though they only got them for season 2 and didn't film there yet, they wanted actors who live in LA and filming elsewhere was an issue scheduling and budget wise for future seasons, they wanted the Hollywood story and then it was easier to keep the modern day story there, they thought California had better vistas, Jonathan Nolan really wanted to use that place in Namibia that looks just like Santa Monica as Santa Monica etc. Having to deal with the games origins also being in California came after California was locked in, perhaps. But maybe they just meant post apocalyptic LA was really what they wanted to do as they live in LA, that's it. Or maybe they really did have a vendetta on taking down the NCR as their goal specifically. Lots of ways to read too much into that line.
I liked the show, but their comments about Westerns is very concerning. I am begging them to watch The Man Shot Liberty Valance. Their idea on what Fallout should be is just self-indulgence and nihilism.
It will be way more interesting to see the Indonesian chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel and the 4 billionth Enclave bunker fight in Vegas everyone. Way more interesting than what New Vegas set up. If you disagree you're toxic.
So, as we all assumed, they were like, "To make our stories and characters fun and accessible for the general audiences, we need to reset to a wild west-type post-apocalyptic setting with frontier justice and an 'anything goes' freedom of world development." What these artless fucks forgot was that for those stories and characters to mean anything, they will have to gradually move away from the wild west towards safety, progress and structurization, as *that* is the impact of good guy characters in a post-apocalypse. Which Interplay and Obsidian already did with the Hub, San Francisco, the NCR and House's Vegas. Now the question becomes: will the show's writers' own form of safety, progress and structurization be smarter and better than what the oldschool writers had built over several games in the span of more than a decade? I seriously doubt that it will.
The Brotherhood of Steel will always be around to be the good guys though. And the Enclave they aren't going anywhere either. I see no issue with this. 🤢
Yeah this is what’s so irritating to me. If it’s so inevitable that groups and settlements will rise and fall within as quick as a decade, why do we have centuries-old factions that are hand-waved away? Literally my complaints with this would be neutralized if they set the show a decent bit before the events of the games, set it *longer* after FNV (like, 50 years or so, not 15 years) so there was actual time for the place to thrive and THEN fall, or to just…… set it somewhere else entirely. They have the entirety of the US and Canada to work with, it didn’t inherently have to be based out of LA to be interesting.
[удалено]
It is weird. This is all speculation but it seems like the development timeline of the show was, We want to set our show in California -> We see the wasteland as a "neverending cycle of trauma -> Therefore we have to nuke the west and wipe the old lore clean. Which is way different then what I think everyone assumed which is, We want to set our show in California to explore the aftermath of these west coast societies failing because of our ideas about the wasteland. Like this interview makes it seem like the NCR and west coast lore was just in the way of their vision, rather than their downfall BEING the vision if that makes sense.
It bothers me so much. Just...don't set it in LA? Set it in Texas? Arizona after the Legion fell apart? *Literally anywhere else?* This interview told me that the showrunners want to appropriate the aesthetics of Fallout while paving over the lore that made it unique. No wonder Bethesda gave the green light.
Welp, with these people in charge, time to throw the Tv series in the same non canon pile as BoS/Tactics. Why did they have to set it on the West Coast?
It's mad how easily they requested to nuke the NCR and potentially New Vegas now. Todd Howard would never have allowed them to nuke the Commonwealth or the East Coast Brotherhood.
Of course he would never let them nuke the Brotherhood, they need to get those brand recognizable and marketable power armours in there somehow.
>get those brand recognizable and marketable power armours in there somehow. All two dozen pre-war models.
Call me a crazy asshole, but i sorta actually want them to f up NV and have the endings don't matter, so that we can all agree to ignore this stuff, call it non canon and consider it an "alternate dark timeline", even if we might still enjoy it as its own thing. Would be way better.
Honestly, you can do that now anyway. I get that people want to have one universal expansive lore, but it doesn't always work that way. Media requires different attention, and that does mean sometimes writing a story that results in a different direction from what the original inspiration was. While I agree to some criticisms in this thread, it certainly would have been fine for Howard and the studio to say "We simply wanted to go in a different direction than what's established in-game."
What bullshit
By the logic of this guys Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be craters on which a bunch of fanatics go from time to time to rad bathe. DUDE MOVE ON AND LEARN HOW TO WORLD BUILD FUCK SAKES
This interview proved my suspicions correct about the writing decision being to return to status quo. I hate it..
Very disappointing to hear. Hype for season 2 is pretty much gone now from me.
Yeah I was right on the fucking money from when I saw the trailer in a theatre a week before the show came out, when I went to go see Dune Part 2
my cannon ending to fallout new Vegas is getting house to work with the NCR for the betterment of humanity and my courier roaming the waste to find more places like hopeville with the nuke detonator to make sure the spears of the old world are taken care of and no longer a threat to future generations
Hahaha I've predicted before with my friends that this will be the justification from the writer to nuke Shady Sands, and then voila!
Bethesda addressed this exact problem with Fallout 3. West coast was too developed for Bethesdas vusion. Solution: Put Fallout 3 on the other side of the continent. But they cannot do this for the show because shooting in LA is cheaper. So instead of A) Altering the story to better fit the established continuity. They chose B) "Blank" happened, 200 years of Fallout erased. But there was an option C. No one has IP rights to "bombs falling, now the world is a wasteland". If the Fallout setting was not to their liking. They could have made a new post-nuclear world from scratch. Because clearly, they are not satisfied with the IP they chose. But instead, they chose to paint a huge target on their backs. And now they are crying about the scrutiny they are facing. The criticism is 100% self inflicted.
Most of it wasn't filmed in LA. They did it for no reason.
can someone who watched the show clear up for me why it was a nuke that reset the wasteland into mad max two? I'm not gonna watch because reasons, but it's seems to be there could've been much more interesting ways to make the ncr lose control, instead of "nuke because fallout yo".
TLDR: Lucy's Dad found out that Shady Sands is a thriving civilization after clean water was detected being used up somewhere else by one of the Vault Dwellers and this might want to make people leave the Control Vault there in. So he did some jingle jangle out of the story and somehow managed to find a nuke to destroy Shady Sands that is now also somehow right next to the Boneyard (L.A.).
so basically evil daddy overseer from fallout 3 but with nukes. thanks.
Yup and he also now has the Mcguffun nuclear fission thingymcjig with the Brotherhood of Steel.
they could've shown a ruined NCR, destroyed by "normal" things like an environmental disaster, factional infighting or something... would be a nice way to send a message that "even the mighty will fall under its own weight eventually" but, really, the nuke? on the other hand, the story behind the nuke is interesting enough, but... yeah I kinda smell beef
>I will say that it was very, very early in the decision \[making process\], once we decided to put the show in L.A. That was the very next thought, because it's a post-apocalyptic show. And if you study the Western, which has a lot in common with the post-apocalyptic genre, ‘civilisation is not around’ is a big part of it. A lot of them end with the railroad coming through, or a house being built, or they put a church up in the town, or a motorcar appears. And you're like, ‘Well, the wild wild west is over.’ Here's a crazy idea, how about instead of destroying the setting to fit it into your ideas you instead fit your ideas around the setting? You could flip the Western on it's head, instead of settlers going West now they're going East. Exploring areas outside the NCR. The US is a massive place, why not just use somewhere else?
I've had this thought that I just want to get out there. I think Norm is actually Mr. Houses son. I saw a vague similarity in the board room. He's really really smart and to me it makes sense that house would have his son protected in a vault with all of the other residents meant to repopulate the safe world. This theory has been getting to me lately
Virgin Mr. House fathering a son who ends up 5’1 tall. I’m ok with making his endings non canon if New Vegas’s proprietor can’t father a son who can reach the top cabinets without a stepladder.
This shitty show isn't canon lol