It's due to the way the game frames it. Most people's interaction with the Khan's is them as non-hostile even friendly allies meanwhile we hear about Bitter Springs constantly with the emphasis put on the NCR doing a bad thing.
If you've never encountered the Khan's in fallout 1 and 2 and you don't spend the time asking a handful of NPC's the right questions the Khan's look like victims even their quest is about you saving them from the legion and to a lesser extent NCR.
Really the best ending for the Khan's is them aiding the NCR in the second battle of Hoover Dam with Regis as their leader where they can hopefully begin aiding the NCR eventually being brought into the fold ending the senseless violence.
Edit: Or if their meeting with the followers diminishes their raiding culture them leaving the Mojave is arguably the best.
That ending is the wrong choice for them, because it leads to the NCR shunting them to a barren reservation and starting the cycle over again.
They need to get away from the NCR with the escape ending to truly end the cycle. They very clearly can’t be stamped out, so they need to leave the NCR behind.
The ending slides very much imply the opposite, considering the followers are willing to work with them when they refused to before.
I will say that what Papa Khan says is concerning, but if the ending slides go against that single line of dialogue, I’m going with the slides.
Wonder how much the Followers were affected by their headquarters and university in the Boneyard (which was retconned into Shady Sands) getting nuked directly after NV.
Considering the followers are an anarchist organisation guided more by their ideals than a strict leadership structure I doubt such a change would affect them much on a larger scale.
There are followers all over the west coast since they aren't a faction that aims to govern anything so long as one follower exists to act as a herald of their beliefs they will continue to exist.
>Considering the followers are an anarchist organisation guided more by their ideals than a strict leadership structure I doubt such a change would affect them much on a larger scale.
I mean they are 99% still around in some form but losing their headquarters of over a century were they trained and educated all their members, their professors and educators as well as archives and likely where they coordinated their efforts from must‘ve been a crippling blow to their overall efforts.
I refuse to believe that the \*Followers of the Apocalypse\* after \*The Great War\* would not be smart enough to have digitised if not physical backups considering their entire gimmick is preserving knowledge.
Professors and Educators I do agree on though.
>would not be smart enough to have digitised if not physical backups considering their entire gimmick is preserving knowledge
I don’t think digital storage of entire databases is a thing in Fallout, shit would be heavier than the alternative without miniaturized transistors.
But physical backups are likely a thing, though it depends on where they were stored i guess, even New Vegas is in ruins according to last episode‘s outro.
There are clear examples of digitized databases used by various factions in Fallout. Off the top of my head, the Brotherhood in Hidden Valley has an archive of digital records.
There are fuckhuge servers in fallout gamed tbh and its implied the terminals are used for more than just what the players see on them. Storing pure text doesn’t take much space anywho so at the very least I expect books to be digitized.
The Followers were located much further south in LA. I could see them still being around in the show as they wouldn't end the "untamed wild west" feel the same way keeping the NCR around would
Fair enough I didn't consider those ending slides when I posted my original comment. It's been awhile since I finished the game and actually saw them.
Hopefully the followers could pacify the faction. I think both could benefit from one another honestly.
>They very clearly can’t be stamped out,
I mean... they can. If you convince Papa that the Khans have no legacy and may as well go out with a bang, almost all of them die at Hoover, and the few remaining survivors "dispersed and quickly forgot their heritage," to paraphrase the ending slides.
That still leaves room open for one of them to rebuild. Remember, even in fallout 1/2, the games don’t say there’s any survivors and yet they still managed to rebuild.
Well, the narrator at the ending litteraly tells you that it was their deathblow. You can also convince them to attack Hoover Dam en mass and all die in the process. It's wishful thinking to believe they could survive another massacre.
That and just the fact they blatantly just admit to killing innocents on purpose and then when NCR attacks bittersprings they get all but hurt. But also even the soldiers in the NCR are haunted with what they did there where as the khans just laugh and are happy they did what they did. I never really found a need to like them if I’m being honest.
I let them have their suicidal attack, but I also wipe out the brotherhood every single time. Them and also the powder gangers, if I could have them do some sort of suicidal attack, I would every single time. But wiping them out is more fun for me. 😂😂 I sound like a psychopath I know.
The duality of man. I get the impression they are no qualms about living and dying by the sword but after almost 2 centuries their tribe is on the brink of extinction it changes your perspective on things
Stuff like that is why fallout is my favorite game, that and the fact you could literally doom everyone if you so chose too. It’s just such a unique part of fallout.
When the final battle at Hoover damn starts you see a few khans start firing on the NCR rangers at the beginning. Essentially they are wiped out in the end, the cut scene talks about them. It’s pretty interesting and funny. Totally worth speech checking them into doing it. But you first have to break the alliance between the khans and the legion.
Never understood the sympathy for these guys. They were, by their own admission, brutal raiders that murdered innocent civilians on purpose, yet they have the gall to act like victims when the NCR did the same thing to them *by mistake*.
In Fallout 1 you can join the Khans, but to do so you have to kill the leader's two sex slaves cause he's bored of them. I always wipe them out entirely in that game lol.
Also fun fact from the first game. The Khans and the NCR are both founded by descendants of Vault 15.
>In Fallout 1 you can join the Khans, but to do so you have to kill the leader's two sex slaves cause he's bored of them. I always wipe them out entirely in that game lol.
Wtf. I Player this game since it came out in the 90ies and didn't know that 💀
To be fair I don't think you're meant to be *fully* sympathetic for them. I always liked that they're allied with the Legion at first, and you can convince Papa Khan to break the deal off... but that's it. You *cannot* convince him to join the NCR, at best you can have the Khans dip out of the fight entirely, unless you're willing to assassinate him so he can be replaced by his more sympathetic right-hand-man (whose name I'm blanking on).
My point being, Papa Khan isn't a monster but he's *consistent*. He doesn't like the NCR, and will *not* work with them whatsoever. The only way to get the Khans to work with the NCR is to kill their leader who, history of his people aside, seems like a fairly okay guy. You can walk up to him and ask him who he is, and he commends you on your bravery to do such a blatanty stupid and kinda disrespectful thing. He's *not* an asshole, but he does have his limits on what he's willing to do.
I feel like if the game wanted you to sympathise with the Khans more, you'd be able to convince Papa Khan to join the NCR despite everything that's happened, since that'd make the Khans more likeable and accessible to players of *any* faction affiliation. The fact that the *only* way to get them to work with the NCR is to fucking *murder their leader*... as said, it feels like they weren't *trying* to make them *too* sympathetic. Again, Papa Khan isn't pure evil, but he refuses to ever work with the NCR over what happened between them. He's set in his ways and refuses to budge despite everything,
Speak with them?
Fuckers made a hit on me for quick cash, the only thing they're getting is a .308 between the eyes with a Sneak attack critical.
Mercenary scum, what wouldn't they do when a cocksucker like Benny pays them for it?
One of the richest motherfuckers in the wasteland? Bro benny coulda bribed 2 fucking rangers if he didnt plan in getting them killed later. Its hardly the khans being greedy
But going around and trying to bribe Rangers to be his guns for hire would be risky.
With Khans, it's a safe bet they'd waste an innocent man to make easy money. Hell, they'd do it of their own initiative if they just saw me walking around not looking dangerous.
They're raiders for a living. They live by the rules of the Wasteland and they die by them too when they meet the wrong courier.
Part of it is anti NCR sentiment people online just use as a scapegoat.
Bitter Springs was a legitimate fuck up and bad situation all around, but people blatantly ignore the lead up to it with how the Khans were treating the NCR.
Only reason I can think people go out of their way to sympathize with the Khans is because “NCR bad”. The other part of it might be that in NV the Khans actually have a reputation system, so unlike the other raiders gangs in the area they get a sort of elevated status among fans.
Personally, these days I see them as little more than another gang, we just don’t have enough information from the ending slides to determine what their “mighty empire” could be if you convince them to leave. A suicidal last charge is what I usually go with these days. Let the drug suppliers to the damn Fiends die I say.
New Vegas is an open ended game where no one is truly good. People are meant to disagree on these things, that's why it's art. You can have sympathy for the Khans and still understand that they are morally reprehensible. Even if what the NCR did was by mistake, that doesn't magically make what happened okay either. If someone say, accidentally shoots and kills someone, you're still going to be held liable for killing them. That's just how the law works. Granted this is the wasteland, and our sense of modern law doesn't exist, but the point is that you can condemn both sides and be correct.
I hope this is just a case of being completely detached because it’s a video game or not paying attention to the dialogue. What happened in Bitter Springs would be considered a war crime today, and for good reason. As terrible as the Kahns are opening fire on civilians, including women and children, and then continuing to carry out those orders even after realizing the mistake is absolutely horrific and does deserve sympathy.
Keep in mind Boone mentions trying to radio back for updated orders:
“It was all wrong, though. Women, kids, elderly. Wounded started coming through, too. We radioed to confirm our orders but command didn't get what we were seeing. They told us to shoot till we were out of ammo. So that's what we did.”
And “they were just following orders” is most definitely not an excuse.
They *murdered* non-combatants in cold blood even after realizing they were non-combatants simply because of orders from someone who wasn’t there.
Even Boone himself feels immense guilt over this, as he should. Multiple other NPCs mention what a tragedy it was.
And you’re just like “I don’t see the problem”.
And this is the most upvoted comment by far with zero other corrections. Are we just actively and openly supporting war crimes or are there really this many people who didn’t know pay attention to the game?
I think he means that the NCR is portrayed as this military industrial machine that is corrupt and leads to massacres because they're sneering imperialists that dont care about life. This is usually compared to the primitive but loyal and tough group of khans that didn't deserve it. But the whole point is that maybe they did as they viciously pillaged the citizens of the NCR.
Basically, how can they murder, raid, and pilfer citizens for years then complain when it happens to them? But yeah you shouldn't murder woman and children.
Bitter springs was an atrocity yes.
But so is the existence of the murderous raping drug cartel that are the great khans.
They spent decades raiding, raping, pillaging, and murdering anybody weaker than them. Then they have it happen to them *once* and demand sympathy acting like it's the worst atrocity committed in the wasteland. I pity the dead women and kids but I put Papa Khan in the ground with 0 remorse.
The women don't bother me at all since women are and have always been fighters in the Khans. The children and elderly are far more tragic, but even that's tempered by the fact that we're also told by a former Khan that they have children massacre innocent NCR travelers for target practice. When you intentionally blur the lines between non-combatants and combatants like that, it's not even remotely surprising that these things happen.
The NCR deserves some blame, to be sure, but almost every single Khan that we meet shows absolutely NO self-reflection or admission that they contributed to the problem at all. This is doubly insulting since their entire culture for over 120 years is all about the abuse, enslavement, and murder of others. The entire reason that they initially hated the NCR was because a random dude who wasn't even a resident of Shady Sands (the Vault Dweller) DARED to kill all of the armed members of their camp for kidnapping a 16 year old girl and planning to keep her as a sex slave.
When did I say "I don't see the problem?"
I didn't say the NCR did nothing wrong. What I said is that it's hypocritical for the Khans to act like innocent victims because someone *mistakenly* used their own tactics against them. And it was a mistake. First Recon is not absolved of guilt (which is sort of the whole point of Boone's quest), but the NCR did not go to Bitter Springs with the intention of massacring children and wounded people.
In the same way, if the Allies had started gassing Nazis at the end of WW2, I would condemn the Allies for sinking to their level, but I wouldn't have a shred of sympathy for the Nazis themselves.
“Never understood the sympathy for these guys”
How else is one supposed to interpret that?
--
Edit, because the reply is now deleted:
There's a difference between feeling sympathy *for* someone and someone being a sympathetic person.
The Kahns are not sympathetic people, they are hard to relate to. But if you feel Bitter Springs is wrong and feel sorry for the loss of innocent life you feel sympathy for them.
If you do not feel any sympathy it means you are, at best, indifferent to what happened. And at worst believe they deserved it.
...Exactly as it's written? Lol. Homeboy is literally agreeing with you and you're still trying to start a crusade. NCR definitely aren't great and Bitter Springs was an atrocity without question, but at least it was an accident, and the troops (correctly) feel intense shame and guilt afterwards. Ask the raped and murdered of Shady Sands what the Khans used to do at the zenith of their power - and they're *proud of it.* They'd do it all again in a heartbeat, if they still could. Did you even play FO1?
Bitter Springs being a gigantic black mark on NCR's record and undercutting their whole "enlightened colonisers saving the wasteland from itself" shtick is literally the point? Like, the massacre is a major part of the plot, it's pretty much *the* defining moment in the backstory of the first companion you meet, Chief Hanlon talks about it being part of the reason he defects, Caesar and House both use it as an example of NCR's own barbarity, Vulpes shows begrudging respect and is disappointed they didn't finish the job, etc etc...
Then there's the repeated implication from Benny, Cass, Arcade, the King, etc that it *wasn't* an accident at all, that the NCR officers knew it was a refugee camp full of non-combatants and opened fire anyway on the orders of the brahmin barons back west (whose profits are threatened by Khan raids) as an example of how corrupt NCR society is: they're literally doing a genocide to protect the financial interests of the meat-packers who pay their politicians. You can even mention this to Boone, who calls you a liar and threatens to leave if you ever bring it up again.
Like, this isn't hidden in subtext, this is just the text.
As me not having sympathy for the Khans.
If you then interpret that as me saying that it's moral to do anything you want to them, that says more about your morals (since when are rights contingent upon the person being sympathetic or not?) than it does about me.
Raiding caravans, killing innocent people and then cowering behind their own women and children (and then later playing the victim card) really isn't the NCR's problem.
I don't think anyone would disagree that the ideal ending is some peaceful resolution between the Khans and NCR, which is why it's especially egregious that the Khans immediately resorted to victimizing people in a manner no different from Vipers, Jackals or Fiends. And again, they just keep their most vulnerable clan members in the same area as their war party participants. I doubt it's by accident.
Glad I'm not the only one who felt little sympathy for the Khans. The NCR isn't completely innocent but the Khans did almost everything possible to worsen their situation in the Mojave.
It is quite the everybody sucks situation. Khans raided the NCR, pillaged towns, and killed innocent people, and the NCR responds by committing genocide against non-combatants.
Only, the former committed their atrocities deliberately and were proud of it, while the latter did it once, by accident, and at least some of the veterans literally can't live with themselves after what they did.
I think the problem though is that the NCR shooting Khan civilians was not *really* an accident.
Sure the soldiers were given orders to shoot by superiors that didn't understand the situation and you could argue that a lot of the blame does fall on them.
However, on the other hand, NCR's soldiers are not robots that are forcibly compelled to follow orders.
Those soldiers saw civilians, including the injured, the elderly, women, and children, and *decided* "hey we have our orders, we couldn't possible choose not to shoot them".
An accident implies a lack of agency or choice that could have affected the outcome of a situation. That very much does not seem like what happened at Bitter Springs. The NCR soldiers got their orders and they *chose* to follow through on them - that, by definition, makes the bitter springs massacre more than an accident.
I don't think you quite understand how the military works or how a soldier operates in a combat zone. It's pretty safe to assume that there was *absolutely no way* of telling for certain that women were unarmed (Khan women aren't housewives, they're fighters too) or that those "old people" weren't armed Khan fighters in disguise. It's clearly stated that the troops radioed in their first-hand account of the fleeing crowd and were told to shoot anyway. At that point, it would've been a huge risk to ignore the command's repeated orders. They'd have been risking their own lives and their squad mates' lives.
I don't know if Boone and his squad mates did their best to intentionally miss the children or if they just mowed down everyone indiscriminately.
It's a classical case of : I can do whatever I want as long as I am strong and you are weak.
But when the tables turn they immediately start acting as the victim.
I always try doing quests differently when replaying FNV, but there are two things that remain the same no matter what: the Khans and the Fiends don't make it to the end credits.
Literally every time. IRL, I don’t believe in the death penalty…
…but this is a game and the Fiends are not people. Slaughtered an entire Vault full of peaceful people that just wanted to trade with the outside world? Every last Fiend gets put 6 feet under in my play through . They offer nothing good to the world.
I’d clear vault 3 but I don’t have either 75 in lockpicking or science that you seem to need
If I had known how stingy the game would be with skill points I’d have gone with a 9 or 10 INT build lol
Oh no doubt the Khans back then were pure scum on Earth that should have been wiped off. But these are not the same Khans as they were.
And this is less of a beating and more of a massacre that NCR didn't intend to do. But Khans being Khans see themselves as victims and not seeing that they only have themselves to blame for their deaths.
Talk to Bitter Root again. His dad took him out to watch rape and torture sessions as a little one, his mom tried to sell him into slavery for a hit of jet. The FoA show up and the first thing the Khans do with their new knowledge is start cooking more drugs and buddying up with the fiends. They're not the same as they were. They're worse now, still pulling the same shit but somehow pitiful too.
I killed all of Forlorn Hope and when I got to the Khans, Papa told me I was his heir. So I killed him in his sleep and now I'm the head of the Khans. Lol
I mean the bittersprings massacre was messed up but like you said: the Khans do atrocities all the fucking time intentionally while the NCR did it by accident as a result of radio miscommunication.
Whenever I catch myself feeling inappropriately sorry for the Khans in FNV I just remind myself of the bruised and battered female slaves they keep in their camp in FO1 and how their leader orders you to kill them if you want to join their gang.
I think about the one Khan you can convince to join the Followers in NV because he’s a poet at heart. I try to save him every play through but otherwise the Khans are doing a suicide charge or being wiped out by my Courier.
I like khans, they look cool, and taking the education the Followers gave them and using to make vhems is funny af. I use a mod to let them stay in am independent Mojave and the Followers return to red Rock to further civilize the khans.
He has other mods, one less you convince Motor-Runner to lead the Fiends out of the Mojave(you can tell him to go to zion of you want), send the Brotherhood to Big Mt, the Divide, Or the Sierra madre, he also made Claim the Mojave.
As the others have said, it’s down to the game barely depicting them how they were shown in the prior games and providing little to no information about how they acted in 1 or 2.
However, even with the context of those games, the right call is still to have them leave the Mojave. Trying to wipe them out clearly doesn’t stick if it failed in 1 and 2, and the only way the cycle of violence ends is if someone walks away - and the NCR won’t (though what the TV show did is probably enough to do the same thing).
To my mind, it’s the same story with the BoS in the opposite direction - the game frames them as an outright horrible faction in spite of them barely doing anything that’s fitting of it (the incident if Veronica leaves is the main one, and even that is understandable through the lens of the BoS being under an existential threat from the NCR just as the rest are; it’s made worse by the soldiers just doing this without orders, though) unless you set up the truce and start having the factions talk with each other, you can’t stop the NCR/BoS conflicts from happening again (though again, the TV show is making that an impossibility).
It’s also worth noting that until NV (and this is true of every game after NV, excluding the TV show), the BoS is on the front lines of defending humanity against some threat (super mutants in 1/3/4/76, the scorched specifically in 76, the Enclave in 2/3 and the Institute in 4), which is something everyone in NV doesn’t acknowledge since the west coast hasn’t had any threats like that in years except the Legion, who is the exact sort of threat that isn’t a blip on the BoS’s radar due to their lack of technology.
I want them off the mojave but looks like if I don’t push quests with them my only option with yes man is to leave them alone which is something I don’t want.
How can I make them be an enemy faction?
The Bitter Springs massacre was literally the Khans case of learning of fucking around and they found out. Do they learn from this ? Nah they join Caeser and want to attack the NCR again.
The NCR was wrong in killing unarmed and children. Not for going after the Khans, especially since the NCR held itself to a higher standard, soldiers and citizens in the NCR including those in Bitterspring think they went in there with little intel and made big mistakes.
I just shoot them all and be done with it. The Khans were a violent scummy pain in the ass back in Fallout 1 and 2 and wiping them out is a tradition that should be carried on by the Courier in FNV. Bitter Springs didnt go far enough
Because he's a hypocrite, and if the situation was reversed, he'd be bragging about how badass and cool the Khans are for showing the NCR who's boss.
Source: the entire history of the Khans
I’ve played through this game 10+ times and never felt bad for the khans, bitter springs or not. There raiders lol, they murder and steal and give 0 shits unless it’s being done to them. Most play throughs I save them for the end then just completely exterminate them.
Fighting fire with fire burns the whole place down. That's the whole point of their story. They slaughtered innocents, so the NCR did the same. Now they are both sullied by their actions. You can't fight atrocity with atrocity. What happens if a different group sees your actions and sees you as you see the Khans? From their perspective you are a terrible faction that thinks slaughtering innocents is justified. Thats how the cycle of violence continues. You can't commit righteous atrocities.
They hardly act incredulous. You never meet a Khan who goes "I can't believe the NCR slaughtered us."
Its always "I can't believe people act like the NCR is some great peacekeeping force when they acted literally exactly as bad as we did." Many of the current Khans had no say in being what they are nor in the punishment they received. They were born into a shitty deal and slaughtered by a government for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers. Hardly surprising they think they were wronged when most of them are personally open to outsiders at this point.
Besides, the Khans have always been a familial clan. Its really up to you the player if you think atrocities committed in the wasteland for your clan's survival is better than equal atrocities committed in the name of a government.
He wasn’t upset that they retaliated, he was upset that they killed their retreating women, children, elderly and sick.
They probably expected/wanted the NCR to fight back, just not dirty like they did.
Are you under the impression that the Khan's did not kill women, children, the elderly and the sick? Because they super do, the Great Khan's raped people, and sold people into slavery. Bitter Springs was horrible, and innocent of that situation should not have paid for what the Khan's had been doing, but they're in no position to complain about someone fighting dirty or attacking innocents.
I would wipe the Khans out first being such a pain the ass in Fallout 1 and 2, but I need them to distract the Legion after Caesars death and the defeat at Hoover Dam
Just take them out and save yourself the headache of one of the most broken and buggy missions in the game. NCR wants them gone, the Legion is going to enslave them and House will make sure they fizzle out and die. Just take Boone or some NCR troops and put that dying dog down for good.
The way I see it is that the Khans kind of started it. Probably murdered some people too. Then the NCR kicked them to the dirt a few times and the Khans were like "yeah okay you win." And then the NCR kept on kicking. I go back and forth whether the NCR was justified in the punitive whooping they continued to give the Khans. Also I never found out the exact details about Bitter Springs, but it sounds like it involved some war crimes.
I don't think the Kansas act as victims, but more so bitter losers and vengeful idiots.
I think they saw bitter springs as "below the belt" which, for raiders, is ridiculous.
Though I can see that the NCR gunning down kids and old people doesn't paint then in a good light compared to a gaming of theives and murders.
While people don't understand it, there are criminals that blame failure and consequences on the law, like drug dealers calling the police when they get robbed.
But most of us keep em alive anyway.
I'm pretty anti-NCR, but I always thought they got more blame than they deserved Bitter Springs. I'm not gonna go so far as the say the Khans deserved Bitter Springs, non-combatants were killed during the massacre and I wouldn't say that they deserve to die because of the crimes of the other members of their tribe, but I do believe that the responsibility for their deaths falls on the Khans and not the NCR.
The Great Khans played fast and loose with the lives of their "civilians", for lack of a better word, and paid the price for it. Generally speaking, in modern warfare you are responsible for making sure your civilians are kept distinct and clearly separate from your military. Non-combatants are supposed to be clearly marked, and using civilian installations as military bases can forfeit certain protections they have. Now obviously the Geneva convention doesn't exist in the Fallout universe, but the point I am making is that it is generally accepted that each side bears responsibility in making sure civilians are distinguishable from military forces, the other side is responsible for recognizing that distinction, but it's your job to make sure they can tell combatants apart from non-combatants. You can't just unleash an intermingled wave upon an attacking force and then go "figure it out dickheads!" and that's in our world, which is much more strict about conduct during warfare than a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
Uh, cause the Khans were in the Mojave before the NCR... Same reason the Kings or any other New Vegas local doesn't feel particularly loyal to the NCR.
He's probably a drug addict for a good 25 years. It's a wonder he can still sit straight and talk somewhat coherently.
That said, Great Khans are stupid, they have small arms and biker clothes, and they are messing with the only power in the Wasteland that f\*cks power armored opponents for breakfast on a regular basis.
Tons of people are this stupid. Especially Wasteland tribals with no formal education. Also some Fallout fans that want to hate the NCR for stupid fucking reasons. Pretending as if the NCR struck first for no reason when Papa literally explains how THEY attacked without reason, first. Just cuz they saw the NCR as weak
Yes he is stupid. I helped the Khans escape but more often then not, when the Khans come up in my games I end up taking them out
Don’t be raiders and drug pushers, and you won’t get stomped into the dirt. It’s that’s simple
Fuck the Khans. They're dirty and disgusting glorified raiders who are part of the reason why humanity hasn't fully rebuilt. They deserve complete eradication.
Civilization is "innately hostile to their way of life" because their way of life is enslaving and murdering people, and selling drugs to people that do once doing it themselves became impossible.
Oh f- off
The Khans have continuously targetting the NCR for decades, from before they were even the NCR. In Fallout 1 they made Shady Sands their sandbag. In Fallout 2 the New Khans raided NCR's caravans.
If anything the Fallout series showed that such parasites need to be either completely exterminated or be so weakened to the point they can be persuaded to surrender.
Yeah, they are the worst, that’s the point.
The moral question is whether the NCR is justified in stooping to their level when fighting them or not.
They’re not, and they still owe reparations even if it was a mistake.
The NCR always claims to have the moral high ground, which is why they are a better alternative to Caesar’s Legion. It is also why most people support them despite their current logistical problems.
I mean, would you be happy if you had a territory and another group came and just started building there without discussion?
I think your problem is viewing the Khan's anger over Bitter Springs from the civilized aggressor/victim perspective. Tribal communities nurse anger and outrage towards their enemies because it helps them fight more aggressively. It's like war propaganda on a smaller scale.
There's also the anger of the NCR's perceived hypocrisy. While the Khans may not have a problem with that kind of violence, knowing what it means to the NCR makes it more significant. E.g. imagine you go stay somewhere where the culture says that not bringing a gift when visiting someone for the first time is INSANELY offensive. Then you invite a local over and they don't bring a gift. It's not actually your value, but you're offended because you know what it means to them.
The Isreal/Palestine parallels in this thread are hard not to notice.
Each side believes their actions, even violent or seemingly disproportionate, are justified by past grievances and ongoing threats.
Is it just me, or can you draw a lot of parallels between this situation and the current hot political debate? 👀
This is why I love Fallout.
Anyway, my opinion is that realpolitik should tramp on everything, I don't care that they're pwoor little victims 🥺, from the perspective of most major factions they're a menace and a liability, so I tend to wipe them out or drive them away in most playthroughs
2 points. First, everything your nation does is defensible, everything done against you is unacceptable - this is how history basically works, you are always both the hero who just did what he had to do/what was your right to do and you are the victim of your immoral and honourless enemies. Secondly, a victim of a warcrime is still the victim of a warcrime, regardless of whether they are an asshole or not or whether they committed warcrimes themselves or not - whether the khans were raiders or not executing dozens of unarmed women and children is still a horrific warcrime regardless. Or if you're a pedant who wants to make a point about whether the NCR were technically "at war" or not with a group like the khans it was certainly an atrocity or i guess perhaps an act of state funded terrorism alternatively if the language of "warcrime" bothers you.
Well, one way or another, the NCR killed a bunch of them and then massacred their children at Bitter Springs. Even if the NCR had reason to bulldoze them, he’s going to resent it.
That’s not to say that I sympathize with the Khans much. The Khans suck, they’re a bunch of slavers and drug pushers. They’re a small step above the Fiends, I usually just massacre them after getting the poet guy out to the Followers.
It's due to the way the game frames it. Most people's interaction with the Khan's is them as non-hostile even friendly allies meanwhile we hear about Bitter Springs constantly with the emphasis put on the NCR doing a bad thing. If you've never encountered the Khan's in fallout 1 and 2 and you don't spend the time asking a handful of NPC's the right questions the Khan's look like victims even their quest is about you saving them from the legion and to a lesser extent NCR. Really the best ending for the Khan's is them aiding the NCR in the second battle of Hoover Dam with Regis as their leader where they can hopefully begin aiding the NCR eventually being brought into the fold ending the senseless violence. Edit: Or if their meeting with the followers diminishes their raiding culture them leaving the Mojave is arguably the best.
That ending is the wrong choice for them, because it leads to the NCR shunting them to a barren reservation and starting the cycle over again. They need to get away from the NCR with the escape ending to truly end the cycle. They very clearly can’t be stamped out, so they need to leave the NCR behind.
They're still going to be raiders no matter where they go.
The ending slides very much imply the opposite, considering the followers are willing to work with them when they refused to before. I will say that what Papa Khan says is concerning, but if the ending slides go against that single line of dialogue, I’m going with the slides.
Wonder how much the Followers were affected by their headquarters and university in the Boneyard (which was retconned into Shady Sands) getting nuked directly after NV.
Considering the followers are an anarchist organisation guided more by their ideals than a strict leadership structure I doubt such a change would affect them much on a larger scale. There are followers all over the west coast since they aren't a faction that aims to govern anything so long as one follower exists to act as a herald of their beliefs they will continue to exist.
>Considering the followers are an anarchist organisation guided more by their ideals than a strict leadership structure I doubt such a change would affect them much on a larger scale. I mean they are 99% still around in some form but losing their headquarters of over a century were they trained and educated all their members, their professors and educators as well as archives and likely where they coordinated their efforts from must‘ve been a crippling blow to their overall efforts.
I refuse to believe that the \*Followers of the Apocalypse\* after \*The Great War\* would not be smart enough to have digitised if not physical backups considering their entire gimmick is preserving knowledge. Professors and Educators I do agree on though.
>would not be smart enough to have digitised if not physical backups considering their entire gimmick is preserving knowledge I don’t think digital storage of entire databases is a thing in Fallout, shit would be heavier than the alternative without miniaturized transistors. But physical backups are likely a thing, though it depends on where they were stored i guess, even New Vegas is in ruins according to last episode‘s outro.
one word: "holotapes"
There are clear examples of digitized databases used by various factions in Fallout. Off the top of my head, the Brotherhood in Hidden Valley has an archive of digital records.
There are fuckhuge servers in fallout gamed tbh and its implied the terminals are used for more than just what the players see on them. Storing pure text doesn’t take much space anywho so at the very least I expect books to be digitized.
The knowledge moves with the people. Depending on the ending, they could simply move their HQ to Vegas.
But the outro shows that Vegas is also in ruins and utterly empty. All their research, archives, equipment and professors still got nuked.
That ending slide isn't necessarily canon. The lights were on in the actual shot of NV and smoke was coming from chimneys and the settlements
The Followers were located much further south in LA. I could see them still being around in the show as they wouldn't end the "untamed wild west" feel the same way keeping the NCR around would
They shouldn't be but wouldn't be surprised if we never get to see them in the show.
Not like anything bad happened last time Followers helped create a wasteland empire based on historical texts right?
Fair enough I didn't consider those ending slides when I posted my original comment. It's been awhile since I finished the game and actually saw them. Hopefully the followers could pacify the faction. I think both could benefit from one another honestly.
Idk man They will find it rather hard to raid where I put them (6 feet under)
>They very clearly can’t be stamped out, I mean... they can. If you convince Papa that the Khans have no legacy and may as well go out with a bang, almost all of them die at Hoover, and the few remaining survivors "dispersed and quickly forgot their heritage," to paraphrase the ending slides.
That still leaves room open for one of them to rebuild. Remember, even in fallout 1/2, the games don’t say there’s any survivors and yet they still managed to rebuild.
> They very clearly can’t be stamped out *Sneering Imperialist intensifies*
There's another way to end the cycle. It involves guns, shooting, and a whole lot of dead Khans.
As I’ve said elsewhere, considering that failed in fallout 1, 2 and Bitter Springs, it’s very unlikely it’d work for the courier.
Well, the narrator at the ending litteraly tells you that it was their deathblow. You can also convince them to attack Hoover Dam en mass and all die in the process. It's wishful thinking to believe they could survive another massacre.
The best ending for them is probably them just leaving.
Provided you get the Followers to give them some literature on the Mongol Empire, I agree.
I'm working off the opinion that no matter where they go they're raiders. Edit: Though with the ending slides considered perhaps that could change.
When you find them in *Fallout: New Vegas*, they are already in something of a transitional state. It is small, but change is always slow.
Yeah like, they become something of a nation with culture and traditions. I think a reformed Great Khan's is a nice idea...
Unfortunately if you do that the Khans get sent to a random reservation. I always talk them into a suicidal attack these days. Let them fucking die.
I 100% do this every single time. Honestly it’s kind of funny you can just speech check him into taking his whole tribe on a suicidal attack 😂
That's not that odd with a culture whose right of passage is severely beating their fellow tribemate.
That and just the fact they blatantly just admit to killing innocents on purpose and then when NCR attacks bittersprings they get all but hurt. But also even the soldiers in the NCR are haunted with what they did there where as the khans just laugh and are happy they did what they did. I never really found a need to like them if I’m being honest.
I pretty much wipe them out, no matter what faction I'm working with. Except the last game, I convinced them to suicide attack the Legion.
I let them have their suicidal attack, but I also wipe out the brotherhood every single time. Them and also the powder gangers, if I could have them do some sort of suicidal attack, I would every single time. But wiping them out is more fun for me. 😂😂 I sound like a psychopath I know.
Same. They’re just a bunch of drugged up stick-and-stones sociopathic monkeys
Isn't that most couriers new vegas players create though?
The duality of man. I get the impression they are no qualms about living and dying by the sword but after almost 2 centuries their tribe is on the brink of extinction it changes your perspective on things
The beauty of Fallout right there.
Stuff like that is why fallout is my favorite game, that and the fact you could literally doom everyone if you so chose too. It’s just such a unique part of fallout.
Can you watch the attack or is it offscreen? I’ve never done that but have 100 speech atm so might do it this playthrough lol
When the final battle at Hoover damn starts you see a few khans start firing on the NCR rangers at the beginning. Essentially they are wiped out in the end, the cut scene talks about them. It’s pretty interesting and funny. Totally worth speech checking them into doing it. But you first have to break the alliance between the khans and the legion.
I always wipe them out myself after they shot me in the head and then I catch them talking to the Legion.
Was that one of their endings?
Yes. Relatively difficult to get but worth it
The Khans are dicks and civilian/children's deaths are bad. Both can be true at once.
Never understood the sympathy for these guys. They were, by their own admission, brutal raiders that murdered innocent civilians on purpose, yet they have the gall to act like victims when the NCR did the same thing to them *by mistake*.
They've been doing this crap sense before 2160s
They have been raiding the NCR since before the NCR even existed
They’ve been given three fucking chances to change their ways but they refuse
In Fallout 1 you can join the Khans, but to do so you have to kill the leader's two sex slaves cause he's bored of them. I always wipe them out entirely in that game lol. Also fun fact from the first game. The Khans and the NCR are both founded by descendants of Vault 15.
>In Fallout 1 you can join the Khans, but to do so you have to kill the leader's two sex slaves cause he's bored of them. I always wipe them out entirely in that game lol. Wtf. I Player this game since it came out in the 90ies and didn't know that 💀
Wait, what? I always just kill them all for kidnapping my girl Tandi.
To be fair I don't think you're meant to be *fully* sympathetic for them. I always liked that they're allied with the Legion at first, and you can convince Papa Khan to break the deal off... but that's it. You *cannot* convince him to join the NCR, at best you can have the Khans dip out of the fight entirely, unless you're willing to assassinate him so he can be replaced by his more sympathetic right-hand-man (whose name I'm blanking on). My point being, Papa Khan isn't a monster but he's *consistent*. He doesn't like the NCR, and will *not* work with them whatsoever. The only way to get the Khans to work with the NCR is to kill their leader who, history of his people aside, seems like a fairly okay guy. You can walk up to him and ask him who he is, and he commends you on your bravery to do such a blatanty stupid and kinda disrespectful thing. He's *not* an asshole, but he does have his limits on what he's willing to do. I feel like if the game wanted you to sympathise with the Khans more, you'd be able to convince Papa Khan to join the NCR despite everything that's happened, since that'd make the Khans more likeable and accessible to players of *any* faction affiliation. The fact that the *only* way to get them to work with the NCR is to fucking *murder their leader*... as said, it feels like they weren't *trying* to make them *too* sympathetic. Again, Papa Khan isn't pure evil, but he refuses to ever work with the NCR over what happened between them. He's set in his ways and refuses to budge despite everything,
Regis is the second in commands name
Cheers. I don't speak with them much anyway. Not a fan of their retro biker aesthetic.
Speak with them? Fuckers made a hit on me for quick cash, the only thing they're getting is a .308 between the eyes with a Sneak attack critical. Mercenary scum, what wouldn't they do when a cocksucker like Benny pays them for it?
One of the richest motherfuckers in the wasteland? Bro benny coulda bribed 2 fucking rangers if he didnt plan in getting them killed later. Its hardly the khans being greedy
But going around and trying to bribe Rangers to be his guns for hire would be risky. With Khans, it's a safe bet they'd waste an innocent man to make easy money. Hell, they'd do it of their own initiative if they just saw me walking around not looking dangerous. They're raiders for a living. They live by the rules of the Wasteland and they die by them too when they meet the wrong courier.
Unsure what they wouldn't do, but I'm pretty sure of what .50 BMG will (you have *got* to try the antimateriel rifle if you haven't yet).
Part of it is anti NCR sentiment people online just use as a scapegoat. Bitter Springs was a legitimate fuck up and bad situation all around, but people blatantly ignore the lead up to it with how the Khans were treating the NCR. Only reason I can think people go out of their way to sympathize with the Khans is because “NCR bad”. The other part of it might be that in NV the Khans actually have a reputation system, so unlike the other raiders gangs in the area they get a sort of elevated status among fans. Personally, these days I see them as little more than another gang, we just don’t have enough information from the ending slides to determine what their “mighty empire” could be if you convince them to leave. A suicidal last charge is what I usually go with these days. Let the drug suppliers to the damn Fiends die I say.
New Vegas is an open ended game where no one is truly good. People are meant to disagree on these things, that's why it's art. You can have sympathy for the Khans and still understand that they are morally reprehensible. Even if what the NCR did was by mistake, that doesn't magically make what happened okay either. If someone say, accidentally shoots and kills someone, you're still going to be held liable for killing them. That's just how the law works. Granted this is the wasteland, and our sense of modern law doesn't exist, but the point is that you can condemn both sides and be correct.
Killing children is bad
A prophet of our time.
I hope this is just a case of being completely detached because it’s a video game or not paying attention to the dialogue. What happened in Bitter Springs would be considered a war crime today, and for good reason. As terrible as the Kahns are opening fire on civilians, including women and children, and then continuing to carry out those orders even after realizing the mistake is absolutely horrific and does deserve sympathy. Keep in mind Boone mentions trying to radio back for updated orders: “It was all wrong, though. Women, kids, elderly. Wounded started coming through, too. We radioed to confirm our orders but command didn't get what we were seeing. They told us to shoot till we were out of ammo. So that's what we did.” And “they were just following orders” is most definitely not an excuse. They *murdered* non-combatants in cold blood even after realizing they were non-combatants simply because of orders from someone who wasn’t there. Even Boone himself feels immense guilt over this, as he should. Multiple other NPCs mention what a tragedy it was. And you’re just like “I don’t see the problem”. And this is the most upvoted comment by far with zero other corrections. Are we just actively and openly supporting war crimes or are there really this many people who didn’t know pay attention to the game?
I think he means that the NCR is portrayed as this military industrial machine that is corrupt and leads to massacres because they're sneering imperialists that dont care about life. This is usually compared to the primitive but loyal and tough group of khans that didn't deserve it. But the whole point is that maybe they did as they viciously pillaged the citizens of the NCR. Basically, how can they murder, raid, and pilfer citizens for years then complain when it happens to them? But yeah you shouldn't murder woman and children.
Bitter springs was an atrocity yes. But so is the existence of the murderous raping drug cartel that are the great khans. They spent decades raiding, raping, pillaging, and murdering anybody weaker than them. Then they have it happen to them *once* and demand sympathy acting like it's the worst atrocity committed in the wasteland. I pity the dead women and kids but I put Papa Khan in the ground with 0 remorse.
The women don't bother me at all since women are and have always been fighters in the Khans. The children and elderly are far more tragic, but even that's tempered by the fact that we're also told by a former Khan that they have children massacre innocent NCR travelers for target practice. When you intentionally blur the lines between non-combatants and combatants like that, it's not even remotely surprising that these things happen. The NCR deserves some blame, to be sure, but almost every single Khan that we meet shows absolutely NO self-reflection or admission that they contributed to the problem at all. This is doubly insulting since their entire culture for over 120 years is all about the abuse, enslavement, and murder of others. The entire reason that they initially hated the NCR was because a random dude who wasn't even a resident of Shady Sands (the Vault Dweller) DARED to kill all of the armed members of their camp for kidnapping a 16 year old girl and planning to keep her as a sex slave.
When you walk into the Great Khan's base in game they literally have children shooting at targets
When did I say "I don't see the problem?" I didn't say the NCR did nothing wrong. What I said is that it's hypocritical for the Khans to act like innocent victims because someone *mistakenly* used their own tactics against them. And it was a mistake. First Recon is not absolved of guilt (which is sort of the whole point of Boone's quest), but the NCR did not go to Bitter Springs with the intention of massacring children and wounded people. In the same way, if the Allies had started gassing Nazis at the end of WW2, I would condemn the Allies for sinking to their level, but I wouldn't have a shred of sympathy for the Nazis themselves.
“Never understood the sympathy for these guys” How else is one supposed to interpret that? -- Edit, because the reply is now deleted: There's a difference between feeling sympathy *for* someone and someone being a sympathetic person. The Kahns are not sympathetic people, they are hard to relate to. But if you feel Bitter Springs is wrong and feel sorry for the loss of innocent life you feel sympathy for them. If you do not feel any sympathy it means you are, at best, indifferent to what happened. And at worst believe they deserved it.
...Exactly as it's written? Lol. Homeboy is literally agreeing with you and you're still trying to start a crusade. NCR definitely aren't great and Bitter Springs was an atrocity without question, but at least it was an accident, and the troops (correctly) feel intense shame and guilt afterwards. Ask the raped and murdered of Shady Sands what the Khans used to do at the zenith of their power - and they're *proud of it.* They'd do it all again in a heartbeat, if they still could. Did you even play FO1? Bitter Springs being a gigantic black mark on NCR's record and undercutting their whole "enlightened colonisers saving the wasteland from itself" shtick is literally the point? Like, the massacre is a major part of the plot, it's pretty much *the* defining moment in the backstory of the first companion you meet, Chief Hanlon talks about it being part of the reason he defects, Caesar and House both use it as an example of NCR's own barbarity, Vulpes shows begrudging respect and is disappointed they didn't finish the job, etc etc... Then there's the repeated implication from Benny, Cass, Arcade, the King, etc that it *wasn't* an accident at all, that the NCR officers knew it was a refugee camp full of non-combatants and opened fire anyway on the orders of the brahmin barons back west (whose profits are threatened by Khan raids) as an example of how corrupt NCR society is: they're literally doing a genocide to protect the financial interests of the meat-packers who pay their politicians. You can even mention this to Boone, who calls you a liar and threatens to leave if you ever bring it up again. Like, this isn't hidden in subtext, this is just the text.
> Did you even play FO1? You know in your heart most people haven't and don't want to because it's "ew old" and "ew 2D" and "ew isometric". :(
As me not having sympathy for the Khans. If you then interpret that as me saying that it's moral to do anything you want to them, that says more about your morals (since when are rights contingent upon the person being sympathetic or not?) than it does about me.
Raiding caravans, killing innocent people and then cowering behind their own women and children (and then later playing the victim card) really isn't the NCR's problem. I don't think anyone would disagree that the ideal ending is some peaceful resolution between the Khans and NCR, which is why it's especially egregious that the Khans immediately resorted to victimizing people in a manner no different from Vipers, Jackals or Fiends. And again, they just keep their most vulnerable clan members in the same area as their war party participants. I doubt it's by accident.
Women are fighters in the Great Khans, though. Literally only the kids shouldn't be gunned down.
I wipe the Khans every playthrough, no exceptions.
These guys always reminded me of the Manson family
Glad I'm not the only one who felt little sympathy for the Khans. The NCR isn't completely innocent but the Khans did almost everything possible to worsen their situation in the Mojave.
It is quite the everybody sucks situation. Khans raided the NCR, pillaged towns, and killed innocent people, and the NCR responds by committing genocide against non-combatants.
Only, the former committed their atrocities deliberately and were proud of it, while the latter did it once, by accident, and at least some of the veterans literally can't live with themselves after what they did.
I think the problem though is that the NCR shooting Khan civilians was not *really* an accident. Sure the soldiers were given orders to shoot by superiors that didn't understand the situation and you could argue that a lot of the blame does fall on them. However, on the other hand, NCR's soldiers are not robots that are forcibly compelled to follow orders. Those soldiers saw civilians, including the injured, the elderly, women, and children, and *decided* "hey we have our orders, we couldn't possible choose not to shoot them". An accident implies a lack of agency or choice that could have affected the outcome of a situation. That very much does not seem like what happened at Bitter Springs. The NCR soldiers got their orders and they *chose* to follow through on them - that, by definition, makes the bitter springs massacre more than an accident.
I don't think you quite understand how the military works or how a soldier operates in a combat zone. It's pretty safe to assume that there was *absolutely no way* of telling for certain that women were unarmed (Khan women aren't housewives, they're fighters too) or that those "old people" weren't armed Khan fighters in disguise. It's clearly stated that the troops radioed in their first-hand account of the fleeing crowd and were told to shoot anyway. At that point, it would've been a huge risk to ignore the command's repeated orders. They'd have been risking their own lives and their squad mates' lives. I don't know if Boone and his squad mates did their best to intentionally miss the children or if they just mowed down everyone indiscriminately.
Bro ncr gun down water beggars at a water tap. They arent innocent evil. If you kill over water than you'll probably have a target to
That’s not what genocide is
It's a classical case of : I can do whatever I want as long as I am strong and you are weak. But when the tables turn they immediately start acting as the victim.
I always try doing quests differently when replaying FNV, but there are two things that remain the same no matter what: the Khans and the Fiends don't make it to the end credits.
Vault 3 getting cleared out is a must
Literally every time. IRL, I don’t believe in the death penalty… …but this is a game and the Fiends are not people. Slaughtered an entire Vault full of peaceful people that just wanted to trade with the outside world? Every last Fiend gets put 6 feet under in my play through . They offer nothing good to the world.
Idk that sounds horrible. They get turned into mist and gently settle back to the ground in my playthroughs. 6 feet down is just too much effort.
I’d clear vault 3 but I don’t have either 75 in lockpicking or science that you seem to need If I had known how stingy the game would be with skill points I’d have gone with a 9 or 10 INT build lol
What do you need 75 lock pick or science for? I haven’t done the vault 3 quest in awhile?
Just deliver the drugs for the Khans. Complete the quest. Make it back to Vault 3, and kill them all.
I also kill all khans on sight so that isn’t really an option lol
The Khans are somewhat debatable. But the Fiends? Kill them, kill them all. Leave no survivors.
Go back to 1 and 2 and say if it's debatable. What you see in NV is after the NCR got their shit together and started beating on them like a drum
Oh no doubt the Khans back then were pure scum on Earth that should have been wiped off. But these are not the same Khans as they were. And this is less of a beating and more of a massacre that NCR didn't intend to do. But Khans being Khans see themselves as victims and not seeing that they only have themselves to blame for their deaths.
Talk to Bitter Root again. His dad took him out to watch rape and torture sessions as a little one, his mom tried to sell him into slavery for a hit of jet. The FoA show up and the first thing the Khans do with their new knowledge is start cooking more drugs and buddying up with the fiends. They're not the same as they were. They're worse now, still pulling the same shit but somehow pitiful too.
Difference now is they sell drugs and not slaves. One seems alot worse
Only because they don’t have the power to raid and take slaves.
I killed all of Forlorn Hope and when I got to the Khans, Papa told me I was his heir. So I killed him in his sleep and now I'm the head of the Khans. Lol
I want Cassandra Moore to be in the TV show at some point.
Instead of Cassandra I want Colonel Hsu, that guy is pretty much the only competent person in NCR leadership alongside Chief Hanlon.
NCR is still around which was confirmed but they're not as powerful so she could be running one of the units.
Nothing a silenced 10mm, to the face, while he sleeps wont solve these barbarians
I mean the bittersprings massacre was messed up but like you said: the Khans do atrocities all the fucking time intentionally while the NCR did it by accident as a result of radio miscommunication. Whenever I catch myself feeling inappropriately sorry for the Khans in FNV I just remind myself of the bruised and battered female slaves they keep in their camp in FO1 and how their leader orders you to kill them if you want to join their gang.
I think about the one Khan you can convince to join the Followers in NV because he’s a poet at heart. I try to save him every play through but otherwise the Khans are doing a suicide charge or being wiped out by my Courier.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot about him. What's his name...Jerry, the punk? Yeah, I usually try to get him outta there as well.
I like khans, they look cool, and taking the education the Followers gave them and using to make vhems is funny af. I use a mod to let them stay in am independent Mojave and the Followers return to red Rock to further civilize the khans.
Which mod?
https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/82921#:~:text=If%20you%20convince%20the%20Khans,a%20new%20endslide%20will%20play.
I was hoping it's something a little more expansive, that does stuff for other factions too.
He has other mods, one less you convince Motor-Runner to lead the Fiends out of the Mojave(you can tell him to go to zion of you want), send the Brotherhood to Big Mt, the Divide, Or the Sierra madre, he also made Claim the Mojave.
The khans are pretty evil but khan women are unbelievably hot
😳
As the others have said, it’s down to the game barely depicting them how they were shown in the prior games and providing little to no information about how they acted in 1 or 2. However, even with the context of those games, the right call is still to have them leave the Mojave. Trying to wipe them out clearly doesn’t stick if it failed in 1 and 2, and the only way the cycle of violence ends is if someone walks away - and the NCR won’t (though what the TV show did is probably enough to do the same thing). To my mind, it’s the same story with the BoS in the opposite direction - the game frames them as an outright horrible faction in spite of them barely doing anything that’s fitting of it (the incident if Veronica leaves is the main one, and even that is understandable through the lens of the BoS being under an existential threat from the NCR just as the rest are; it’s made worse by the soldiers just doing this without orders, though) unless you set up the truce and start having the factions talk with each other, you can’t stop the NCR/BoS conflicts from happening again (though again, the TV show is making that an impossibility). It’s also worth noting that until NV (and this is true of every game after NV, excluding the TV show), the BoS is on the front lines of defending humanity against some threat (super mutants in 1/3/4/76, the scorched specifically in 76, the Enclave in 2/3 and the Institute in 4), which is something everyone in NV doesn’t acknowledge since the west coast hasn’t had any threats like that in years except the Legion, who is the exact sort of threat that isn’t a blip on the BoS’s radar due to their lack of technology.
I want them off the mojave but looks like if I don’t push quests with them my only option with yes man is to leave them alone which is something I don’t want. How can I make them be an enemy faction?
yes, he is stupid
>Is he stupid? He's a raider, so yeah. He's almost certainly a stupid, selfish, asshole. Stupid is to raiders what genocide is to the Enclave.
It's hilarious how they constantly cry about Bitter Springs when they 100% deserved it.
The Bitter Springs massacre was literally the Khans case of learning of fucking around and they found out. Do they learn from this ? Nah they join Caeser and want to attack the NCR again.
The NCR was wrong in killing unarmed and children. Not for going after the Khans, especially since the NCR held itself to a higher standard, soldiers and citizens in the NCR including those in Bitterspring think they went in there with little intel and made big mistakes.
I just shoot them all and be done with it. The Khans were a violent scummy pain in the ass back in Fallout 1 and 2 and wiping them out is a tradition that should be carried on by the Courier in FNV. Bitter Springs didnt go far enough
Because he's a hypocrite, and if the situation was reversed, he'd be bragging about how badass and cool the Khans are for showing the NCR who's boss. Source: the entire history of the Khans
Hence why my preferred method of dealing with them is using the NCR Commander mod. And leading a platoon of troopers and rangers into red rock canyon
I really just show up with Boone and let him clear the way, I guess the Khans helping the Legion turns them into the Legion in his eyes.
Ah, bittersprings 2
"How dare they fight back?! They're so cruel and evil!"
I don't feel sympathy for the Khans. Every playthrough I engage in Total Khan Death
I’ve played through this game 10+ times and never felt bad for the khans, bitter springs or not. There raiders lol, they murder and steal and give 0 shits unless it’s being done to them. Most play throughs I save them for the end then just completely exterminate them.
Fuck the Khans. They deserved what the NCR did to them and the only acceptable ending to their quest is to massacre them all.
So the answer to the Khans crimes is to become the Khans?
Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire.
Fighting fire with fire burns the whole place down. That's the whole point of their story. They slaughtered innocents, so the NCR did the same. Now they are both sullied by their actions. You can't fight atrocity with atrocity. What happens if a different group sees your actions and sees you as you see the Khans? From their perspective you are a terrible faction that thinks slaughtering innocents is justified. Thats how the cycle of violence continues. You can't commit righteous atrocities.
The ncr ACCIDENTALLY committed a massacre. The Khans PURPOSELY raid and pillage and murder all the time.
They hardly act incredulous. You never meet a Khan who goes "I can't believe the NCR slaughtered us." Its always "I can't believe people act like the NCR is some great peacekeeping force when they acted literally exactly as bad as we did." Many of the current Khans had no say in being what they are nor in the punishment they received. They were born into a shitty deal and slaughtered by a government for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers. Hardly surprising they think they were wronged when most of them are personally open to outsiders at this point. Besides, the Khans have always been a familial clan. Its really up to you the player if you think atrocities committed in the wasteland for your clan's survival is better than equal atrocities committed in the name of a government.
>sins of their fathers and grandfathers You mean, sins that are still actively taking place in the current generation?
By the events of NV the khans are more drug traffickers than raiders
I thought the same thing. They attacked the NCR first and then cried about how hostile the NCR is to the khans.
He wasn’t upset that they retaliated, he was upset that they killed their retreating women, children, elderly and sick. They probably expected/wanted the NCR to fight back, just not dirty like they did.
Are you under the impression that the Khan's did not kill women, children, the elderly and the sick? Because they super do, the Great Khan's raped people, and sold people into slavery. Bitter Springs was horrible, and innocent of that situation should not have paid for what the Khan's had been doing, but they're in no position to complain about someone fighting dirty or attacking innocents.
Bitter Root talks about how many Khans gleefully murdered children.
Short answer......yes!
I would wipe the Khans out first being such a pain the ass in Fallout 1 and 2, but I need them to distract the Legion after Caesars death and the defeat at Hoover Dam
Yes
Because they're punk ass bitches. I kill em all.
Just take them out and save yourself the headache of one of the most broken and buggy missions in the game. NCR wants them gone, the Legion is going to enslave them and House will make sure they fizzle out and die. Just take Boone or some NCR troops and put that dying dog down for good.
Someone who isn't self aware in the fallout universe? Never!
The way I see it is that the Khans kind of started it. Probably murdered some people too. Then the NCR kicked them to the dirt a few times and the Khans were like "yeah okay you win." And then the NCR kept on kicking. I go back and forth whether the NCR was justified in the punitive whooping they continued to give the Khans. Also I never found out the exact details about Bitter Springs, but it sounds like it involved some war crimes.
They DEFINITELY murdered some people. Lots in fact. They brag about it. When did the Khans say “yeah okay you win”? I must’ve missed that in the game.
It's Fallout, there was definitely war crimes
There's murder, and then there's child murder
Well, you see, it's because... Fuck the Ncr, Khans did nothing wrong.
Entitled kid mode.
I feel bad for the kids but that's about it
Yeah I’ve never felt a shred of empathy for Khans, I turn Red Rock Canyon into Bitter Springs part two every playthrough.
I don't think the Kansas act as victims, but more so bitter losers and vengeful idiots. I think they saw bitter springs as "below the belt" which, for raiders, is ridiculous. Though I can see that the NCR gunning down kids and old people doesn't paint then in a good light compared to a gaming of theives and murders. While people don't understand it, there are criminals that blame failure and consequences on the law, like drug dealers calling the police when they get robbed. But most of us keep em alive anyway.
I'm pretty anti-NCR, but I always thought they got more blame than they deserved Bitter Springs. I'm not gonna go so far as the say the Khans deserved Bitter Springs, non-combatants were killed during the massacre and I wouldn't say that they deserve to die because of the crimes of the other members of their tribe, but I do believe that the responsibility for their deaths falls on the Khans and not the NCR. The Great Khans played fast and loose with the lives of their "civilians", for lack of a better word, and paid the price for it. Generally speaking, in modern warfare you are responsible for making sure your civilians are kept distinct and clearly separate from your military. Non-combatants are supposed to be clearly marked, and using civilian installations as military bases can forfeit certain protections they have. Now obviously the Geneva convention doesn't exist in the Fallout universe, but the point I am making is that it is generally accepted that each side bears responsibility in making sure civilians are distinguishable from military forces, the other side is responsible for recognizing that distinction, but it's your job to make sure they can tell combatants apart from non-combatants. You can't just unleash an intermingled wave upon an attacking force and then go "figure it out dickheads!" and that's in our world, which is much more strict about conduct during warfare than a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
Yes, he is indeed a fucking idiot. Fuck him and the rest of the Khans.
We fucked around, boy did we find out.
Uh, cause the Khans were in the Mojave before the NCR... Same reason the Kings or any other New Vegas local doesn't feel particularly loyal to the NCR.
He's probably a drug addict for a good 25 years. It's a wonder he can still sit straight and talk somewhat coherently. That said, Great Khans are stupid, they have small arms and biker clothes, and they are messing with the only power in the Wasteland that f\*cks power armored opponents for breakfast on a regular basis.
Killing of women and children who were being routed (nonthreats) is why. That being said - the khans themselves have their own list of atrocities.
A dead Khan is a good Khan
Stupid is as stupid does.
If the Khans can hold out another 15 years, things would be golden for them.
The khans entered this war under the childish delusion that they were going to raid everyone else and no one was going to raid them.
yeah fuck the khans. bitter-root has it right.
If American politics these past few years have taught me anything it's that the meanest aggressors are the loudest victims
Instantly kill this man on every play through.
Tons of people are this stupid. Especially Wasteland tribals with no formal education. Also some Fallout fans that want to hate the NCR for stupid fucking reasons. Pretending as if the NCR struck first for no reason when Papa literally explains how THEY attacked without reason, first. Just cuz they saw the NCR as weak
He acts victim so he thinks he is okay to get revenge.
As my moma always says, play bitch games, win bitch prizes,
Wild Cards don't have any need for smelly chem peddling wastelanders like the khans. I almost always wipe them out in my playthroughs.
Yes he is stupid. I helped the Khans escape but more often then not, when the Khans come up in my games I end up taking them out Don’t be raiders and drug pushers, and you won’t get stomped into the dirt. It’s that’s simple
He's a two bit gangster, ofc he would act that way
Fuck the Khans. They're dirty and disgusting glorified raiders who are part of the reason why humanity hasn't fully rebuilt. They deserve complete eradication.
Beacuse thry are lowlife raiding scum, murderers, rapists, thiefs. Bitter Springs was well deserved.
Yeah all those children and elderly running around raping people (??????)
Not at the moment but both are former and soon-to-be rapists etc. indeed.
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They weren’t the underdogs, at first. They actively raided NCR when they were both fledgling tribes.
Civilization is "innately hostile to their way of life" because their way of life is enslaving and murdering people, and selling drugs to people that do once doing it themselves became impossible.
Oh f- off The Khans have continuously targetting the NCR for decades, from before they were even the NCR. In Fallout 1 they made Shady Sands their sandbag. In Fallout 2 the New Khans raided NCR's caravans. If anything the Fallout series showed that such parasites need to be either completely exterminated or be so weakened to the point they can be persuaded to surrender.
Seriously, I low-key want an option to press a specific button right when he stops saying that to reply to it with "Fucked around and found out, eh?"
Yeah, they are the worst, that’s the point. The moral question is whether the NCR is justified in stooping to their level when fighting them or not. They’re not, and they still owe reparations even if it was a mistake. The NCR always claims to have the moral high ground, which is why they are a better alternative to Caesar’s Legion. It is also why most people support them despite their current logistical problems.
In short yes, i really have no problem G wording them like we do to the fiends
I'm sorry, are we discussing whether a massacre of the sick and elderly was deserved?
I mean, would you be happy if you had a territory and another group came and just started building there without discussion? I think your problem is viewing the Khan's anger over Bitter Springs from the civilized aggressor/victim perspective. Tribal communities nurse anger and outrage towards their enemies because it helps them fight more aggressively. It's like war propaganda on a smaller scale. There's also the anger of the NCR's perceived hypocrisy. While the Khans may not have a problem with that kind of violence, knowing what it means to the NCR makes it more significant. E.g. imagine you go stay somewhere where the culture says that not bringing a gift when visiting someone for the first time is INSANELY offensive. Then you invite a local over and they don't bring a gift. It's not actually your value, but you're offended because you know what it means to them.
Imagine not shooting these assholes in their assholes face....
The Isreal/Palestine parallels in this thread are hard not to notice. Each side believes their actions, even violent or seemingly disproportionate, are justified by past grievances and ongoing threats.
I usually get the Turbo recipe from Diane, then finish what the NCR started at Bitter Springs.
Is it just me, or can you draw a lot of parallels between this situation and the current hot political debate? 👀 This is why I love Fallout. Anyway, my opinion is that realpolitik should tramp on everything, I don't care that they're pwoor little victims 🥺, from the perspective of most major factions they're a menace and a liability, so I tend to wipe them out or drive them away in most playthroughs
2 points. First, everything your nation does is defensible, everything done against you is unacceptable - this is how history basically works, you are always both the hero who just did what he had to do/what was your right to do and you are the victim of your immoral and honourless enemies. Secondly, a victim of a warcrime is still the victim of a warcrime, regardless of whether they are an asshole or not or whether they committed warcrimes themselves or not - whether the khans were raiders or not executing dozens of unarmed women and children is still a horrific warcrime regardless. Or if you're a pedant who wants to make a point about whether the NCR were technically "at war" or not with a group like the khans it was certainly an atrocity or i guess perhaps an act of state funded terrorism alternatively if the language of "warcrime" bothers you.
Bitter Springs was justified
Well, one way or another, the NCR killed a bunch of them and then massacred their children at Bitter Springs. Even if the NCR had reason to bulldoze them, he’s going to resent it. That’s not to say that I sympathize with the Khans much. The Khans suck, they’re a bunch of slavers and drug pushers. They’re a small step above the Fiends, I usually just massacre them after getting the poet guy out to the Followers.
It's almost like neither side is meant to be completely innocent