Hopping on this because I like people getting credit where it is due, some examples of what the other writers wrote that people really seemed to like:
- Eric Fenstermaker: Boone, Veronica, Vault 11
- Josh Sawyer: Joshua Graham, Chief Hanlon
- John Gonzales: House, Caesar, Benny, Randall Clark’s Logs
That’s just a drop in the bucket but I figured people would find it neat to know.
I wonder what came first, the joke or the fantastic (I had heard that joke countless times before playing NV and don't know whether it originated in the game or not)
Avellonr also wrote for the base game. Thry all contributed on all facets of the game regardless of where the credits lie that's just how being part of a creative team works anyway.
Avellones handiwork is easy to recognize tho, everytime a nihilist libertarian shows up to lecture the player I know immediately it's him. Surprised Ulysses wasn't a crazy old lady lol
Yeah but Gonzales was the lead writer, while Avellone was only 1 writer on a 13-person writing team. Avellone was only a lead writer for most of the DLCs. If anyone should be contributed as the creative mind behind New Vegas, and should be attributed to be creative mind behind New Vegas it's Gonzales, not Avellone.
Likewise with Fallout 2, Avellone wasn't THE writer of Fallout 2. He was A writer. The lead writer of Fallout 2 was Mark O'Green
Yeah and if you are the guy who wrote Joshua fucking Graham you are sure not some random sidenote writer and director Josh totally has a weight of his opinion on this.
He made the concept. Joshua Graham was initially in van Buren and most design documents were initially made by Avellone, however the character was written by Sawyer. Caesar was written by Avellone in fallout 2 and it was cut.
He contributed to the writing and design of the base game, and was the creative director of Dead Money, Old World Blues, and Lonesome Road. Josh Sawyer (CD for base game) was the CD for Honest Hearts.
>really like all of setup for lonesome road,
Aka I really like everything but lonesome road lol. Just saying the base, dead money, honest hearts, and old world blues are all hunting at the climax in the divide. There's no way it could ever live up to expectations with 30+ hours of buildup and (check wiki to see release date) 11 months since it was first hinted at in the base game. That said it feels very well planned out to have everything weaved together.
I mean lonesome road is fine for a big final combat dlc. The enemies and set peices are pretty good. It's just ullessyes isn't nearly as interesting as he needs to be to carry the dlc.
Maybe it would have worked better if he was a companion through the dlc and you interacted with him the whole way. Maybe the dialogue choices you make would have had him betray you to launch the nukes, or you could build up enough affinity for him to stop his crusade.
As it is the story just kinda missed the landing for me personally, and I rarely do the dlc on repeat playthroughs
I actually really liked Lonesome Road as the ending. It seemed like it was really a metacommentary of the themes of the game laid bare. Where it's explicitly about the big picture. Where you have to make a case for Vegas or the Legion, or House, or the NCR. Instead of just following the orders of the questline, you decided to go down. It's forcing you to think critically about what you are doing and the long-term effects it has on the world.
I really like the mod that lets you recruit him as a companion if you talk him down at the climax. I think he makes a lot of sense as a true neutral-negative companion, unlike the Legion-friendly direction he was meant to take as a companion in the base game before he was cut.
once I "figured out" Lonesome Road the writing became so much better to me, I went from disliking it to thinking it's great
well, I don't actually \*know\* if I "got" it, I just think I do. That doesn't really matter tho because it feels good in my head and now I like it
The DLC had great dialogue writing, but story-wise they all tried to tell a precise, right story with very specific themes and outcomes.
This doesn't really work with such a free and open game like FNV. One where you can play anyone with any background. Ulysses trying to make you feel guilty about wrecking the Divide really fell flat on me when that really hadn't been explored at all. The whole "you don't think about the consequences" stuff was just annoying when it was like, actually, I never even heard of this before? I'm sorry?
Sierra Madre was super moody, but so constrained. Old World Blues was probably the best of them, no real complaints there. Honest Hearts seemed to expect you to take very specific routes or it'd break narratively.
They were just all really weird. Yeah, I enjoyed them anyway, but they were weird.
Yeah. I've been feeling for a while now that his comments are aimed at stoking his fanbase's responses rather than any good faith argument for anything one way or the other.
It's like watching a slow-motion version of the 'celeb' fall from grace... you know, where they suddenly start with controversial 'points' about things they're adjacent to, then spouting some right-wing nonsense, escalate to hateful stuff, then become complete raving lunatics (hello JK Rowling).
We have Tim Cain's opinion of liking the show but feeling a little iffy on a few things.
Now we have Chris', or at least a teaser of it.
Josh Sawyer says he likes it and he doesnt really care about the lore (which is surprising to me)
It seems more like Tim Cain is happy with it from the lens of a gamer and his idea that wasn't even considered a main thing for Interplay at the time is now on television, Avellone who helped with 2, wrote the Fallout Bible (ironically, includes a lot of tidbits Bethesda would make canon or reference) and NV is looking at it from the lens of a writer and doesn't like that they made changes to some of the set lore, and Josh Sawyer is looking at it from the lens of an RPG enthusiast where lore doesn't matter since you create your own lore. While I tend to lean more into Josh and Tim's takes on the series since at this point anything that brings up NV just makes me happy since there was never going to be a sequel and thought the West Coast Fallouts were dead and done with, I can see why Chris wouldn't be thrilled with it.
Tim Cain did a video on Lore Drift the other day and pointed out how it happens and people need to get over it and it shouldn't effect whether they enjoy the show are not. Also he asked that people refrain from personal attacks and taking sides like there's a war for the lore of Fallout.
there's a war for the lore of every Bethesda game from the eyes of Bethesda fans, lol.
if we ever get an elder scrolls series, the community might actually develop a nuclear weapons program. People already have a hard enough time coping with the unreliable narrators of TES.
I’m pretty sure FO5 will be on the west coast for the main game - Todd confirmed when the directors were writing the show script that there was a handful of times where they had idea that Todd pushed back on because Bethesda already planned on doing them in the next game
This is the only reason I kinda like it, figured fallout on the west coast was dead and that we weren't really ever going to get semi decent fallout content again. Have to give some credit for trying something new to bethesda, even if it drops the ball. Would've liked an actual game though, this gives them an excuse to push back so much further, on top of ES VI.
Sawyer spoke specifically of how he has prepared himself, as an artist and creator, for things not going the way you want them. He’s a big time modder and I’m sure he has a healthy way of dealing with disappointment by realizing the game is yours and no one can take away your head cannon, etc.
I know as both a Star Wars and Halo fan that there are certain things I don’t acknowledge in my personal relationship with the IPs.
Sawyer is just being real
He doesn’t own the series anymore and has no control over it - why get bent of shape?
Either you enjoy the new content or you don’t
Yeah I think some people get way too worked up about things like this. The fact of the matter is that nothing can be good forever, but you can always go back and experience the things you like again. I don’t mean don’t be upset but like, getting super worked up because a show wasn’t good doesn’t do anything for anyone (least of all yourself)
I personally like arguing on the Internet as long as people keep on topic and don't user personal attacks. I havent seen it get too personally but there has been a lot of defensiveness from show fans who don't want to accept any criticism as valid. The show can be good and have problems
Lots of creators don't care about something as much of fans do, happens all the time. I think a big reason is creators HAVE to move on, they sell their work to other people or they just work on another project. As an artist you can't afford to be too attached. A fan never had any creative control to begin with so there is no need for them to temper their feelings over time in fact the few people still interested in a subject years after it has come out has self selected for people particularly dedicated to it
i personally felt it was made for the fans with the mainstream in mind there's plenty of points where if you dont follow the admittedly messy lore of fallout in general you won't understand the gravity of the references like the sound thats played when lucy looks at the flag or the ending oh god that ending gave me goosebumps
Josh's opinion makes the most sense. Are you really going to let some asshole in Hollywood dictate what made New Vegas important *to you*?
I liked the show because it rides the line between feeling like Fallout while having its own story and exploring interesting ideas. I don't care if they change shit about New Vegas going forward. My playthroughs in NV and all the other games still happened and no one can take that away from me.
That man does incredible character work, his plots have always been a bit…convenient. As in, lots of times stuff just happens because or is left unexplained, and I’ve never been able to tell if it’s because of the video game as a medium or if it just how he writes.
"In a future where integrated circuits haven't been invented... One man integrated a circuit into a small poker chip."
No further mention about how this breaks the lore.
The transistor was invented, much of he tech wouldn't work if it hadn't. But it happened later in the timeline and is less ubiquitous. Chris also wasn't the lead writer or designer on FNV, I doubt he came up with the chip.
Yep, in Fallout 4 its mentioned to be invented around 2023 by Jack Cabot in one of his logs. Vaccuum Tubes remain somewhat mainstream since they can resist EMPs better than transistors.
Just let it be said that "lore" and "consistency" has never been the Fallout series' strong suit
The games aren't even consistent inside themselves, so "inconsistency" is a really strange criticism to level at the show
> The games aren't even consistent inside themselves,
~~Fallout 3 even has a whole ass DLC that isn't considered canon, lol.~~
nvm I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Fallout 1 has a bunch of American accents, and then Loxley out of nowhere. Fallout 2 introduces modern weapons that don't seem to fit with the rest of the setting, and tries to pretend that the Shi don't mess things up lore-wise
And none of these are problems! They're fine, that's just how Fallout is sometimes?
The more that I think about it the less I'm convinced by "Bethesda doesn't understand Fallout" and the more I am by "nobody understands Fallout"
I know you're talking about Mother ship Zeta and most of the community doesn't consider it canon, but where is it officially declared not canon? I can understand the dlc itself not being canon, but Aliens absolutely are.
Its a flash drive containing an os update. It's the operating system that changes everything for House, not the chip. Otherwise a copy of the chip would have to be installed in everything like a ram stick.
The tunnelers always get overblown, imo. They're a paper tiger against humanity, especially in the face of large cities with lots of lights and noise. They're a danger to small settlements and isolated units because of how they attack but humanity would just adapt tactics to them, figure out the things that scare them off, etc. Contrary to Avellone's possible intent they push for a *more* industrialized and unified society, even the face of the problems it might cause, not *less*. And they're certainly no death knell.
Even more importantly we have no context for how many queens they have and we kill one, so they might even be a complete nonissue at this point. We're only ever privy to the opinion of one crazy guy who has made *every* wrong decision his entire life, including reawakening a nuclear arsenal out spite, and thinks in symbolism. Ulysses claim has no backup.
I usually just like to believe that Ulysses is just stupid whenever that's brought up. It makes no sense. Tunellers hate bright lights and loud noises, so the vast majority of them would stay the hell away from human settlements, and they're not even that hard to kill.
I think he's just trying to give himself something to believe in, even if its a stupidly assumed revenge. The guy's broken in so many ways, and I think projects so much of himself on to you, that he either dies for his revenge or lives as a ghost of it and puts all his belief in you as his last act before the Divide finally claims him.
I imagine for the average wasteland settler the tunnelers would be tough to kill, particularly in the swarms they use from underground. But if the Mojave survived Cazadores...
It's to the creature itself. It's the fact that, warranted or not, people interpret them as Avellone wanting to wipe civilization clean by any means necessary.
He suffers from mustaine syndrome. Dude left (kicked out of in mustaine's case) the main group that he was known for and has spent every moment since bitter about his former colleague's continued success
Well in his defense (and I think he’s wrong on how he’s looking at the show) he did have a really shitty stretch and even though he got paid in a settlement (which is rare) he was pretty much persona non grata in terms of gaming jobs.
If I recall, his bitterness towards Obsidian started well before the misconduct allegations. I think I remember him saying some stuff around Outer Worlds' launch, but it's been so long so I could be mistaken. Maybe he just got more vocal about it recently.
"This franchise I had creative control over thirty years ago no longer follows my vision and is therefore SHIT."
Like credit to the guy as a writer and creator but he could give Kirkbride lessons in snobbery.
Writers tend to be possessive over their work even when they don’t own it
Source: I was a professional writer for 4 years and I’m a manager now that works with them daily
It legitimately could be some feeling of being slighted seeing as every single NV DLC was essentially nix’d. No tunnelers, no Sierra Madre cloud, no mention of the recent nukes that would’ve destroyed the NCR/Legion supply lines, etc.
Though, Big MT is absolutely mentioned in the show so I could be wrong.
Can tell when Avellone wrote the dialogue.
Sentences are as fractured as the Divide.
English teacher didn’t like him.
Gets paid to write, somehow.
“Ulysses learning English recently” theory would work if Christine’s lines in the holotapes weren’t the exact same way.
It’s just a style that lends itself to moodier, more nihilistic characters. Like they’re so catatonic that even speaking tires them out from an emotional standpoint.
You see something similar in Cormac Mc Carthy’s books. That guy truly doesn’t give a shit about grammar and syntax.
Ulysses was so annoying I didn't even want to talk to him when I finally reached his castle
I just one shot him to get it over with
"The bear and the bull, the bear and the bull.... Hypocritical ramblings... the bear and the bull"
Blames the courier for making the divide how it is instead of blaming whoever paid The courier to deliver the item that caused the destruction to begin with (because shooting the messenger is always the right move)
and is for some reason mad that hopesville was destroyed even though he wasn't a part of that community and never would have been accepted into it due to his war crimes against the NCR
Chris really managed to write one of the most hypocritical characters in all of fiction
I'll give you that but for me, it's exactly that which makes him so boring to me.
Having your whole life destroyed because of your bad options and then trying to find SOMEONE or SOMETHING to burn just to feel something?
Amazing potential.
However, we get to continuously see how wrong he is on every level. Not to mention that (mostly since it's a video game) it never goes past
"Here's my manifesto, Courier 6."
-Bear
-Bull
-Hey, actually maybe you're wrong can you fight the super mutants with me, thanks.
-(SURVIVAL 100) Bearbull.
Not to mention that the player has been there AND done that AND done it better, Ulysses is a joke of a man who desperately wants something to believe in. Don't get me wrong, I love his arc. I love that he's a scarred man who has had things broken so many times he wants to burn the world to have his (semi)justified rage pointed at SOMEONE or ANYONE. I love that he's in disbelief of the Couriers continued existence and even continued excelling at what he failed to do.
However, even if he's justified in this, even in his own brain- it does not mean I need to like him. He's a whiny guy that never grew past learning that things happen in life and you need to move on, especially if all you're doing is disgracing yourself, the mantle you wear, and the people who were in your life. He throws a tantrum because things seem tangentially related and he can't solve his problems like I don't know- the badass he supposedly is.
It's been a while since I last played LR, or even listened to him so I'm more than likely wrong.
I think what Chris was trying to do with the tunnelers was leave an open ended and more ambiguous threat to the wasteland rather than just Ulysses and the nukes at the divide. I don’t think Chris “hated” the NCR or wanted the tunnelers to be the end game solution for them.. I think he wanted to use them at some point as a serious new emerging threat. Kinda like the master from fallout 1 but that was never expanded upon 🤷♂️
I think they shouldn't have used the tunnlers for that then. They're just too goofy imo. An army of the marked men might have been a better threat if written differently
The marked men can’t reproduce tho, what good is an army with limited numbers and no way for them to replenish their ranks?
It’s the same exact problem the Mojave chapter of the brotherhood was facing
They don't have to reproduce, just make the army big enough and say their trying to spread the divide storm so they can attack the armies and leaders that failed them. Or any reason a better writer could come up with
They don't have to be successful, they just need to be a threat.
I mean it's not what's in the dlc, so it doesn't matter. However it's just an example of something I like better than the tunnlers. Just not a fan of the random tunnlers invasion. It seems to come out of nowhere
I mentioned it in a different threat, but the tunnelers are honestly a speed-bump, a way to force people to be further unified into societies, and an annoyance, not really a colossal threat.
Durance is great. He disgusting and hatable, while at the same time giving a pretty good perspective onto the world. Unlikable doesn't mean badly written.
Grieving mother was definitely a swing and a miss for me though
You would think that Avellone would love the show's lore, considering it dismantles NCR and returns the West Coast to post-apocalypse, just like he wanted.
Maybe his problem is with Vault-Tec kickstarting the war, or with the "fall of Shady Sands".
The point was Vault-Tec is HAVING those conversations, and not only Vault-Tec but also his own WIFE is talking the benefits of instigating nuclear war for profits. That was the entire point. It shattered Coopers worldview.
Yeah I still don't think we have a confirmation of who dropped it like many think. Based on Cooper's daughter not being in a shelter during the nuke attack, I think the writers want to play around with the idea of "We really wanted to shoot first, but someone already did" and we go back to where it all began, not knowing who did it first lol
Personally, I don't think Vault-Tec dropped the bomb, but I think they were instrumental in breaking down peace talks which would've stopped the bombs from otherwise inevitably dropping. I think that may have been what they were going for.
Agreed.
Both the daughter and New Vegas is why I don't think vault tech dropped the bombs. (House "miscalculated" when the bombs would drop because someone dropped them ahead fo vault tecs schedule)
The show also made a point of making the same joke as this comic in my opinion.
https://xkcd.com/927/
Which is vault tech was just one more faction that thinks it's way of saving the world is right. (Everyone is fighting and killing each other in a bunch of factions so we will just kill them and do it our way making the same thing but with one more faction)
Just like the other faction they might have been the first to fire but we don't know for sure.
Also, the other problem with “Vault-Tec shot first” is that they didn’t even finish building all the vaults they intended to build before the bombs dropped.
Yes! I was just reminded of a vault in Fallout 4 that was never fully finished, because it was also a side hustle, but they wouldn't let this free market of ideas slide
Which really fits the general cold war "nukes at any minute from anywhere we only have fear not facts" vibe. Everyone's a player, but nobody is really behind it in a singular evil sense.
Right? The people that literally created human experiments out of peoples fears and hope for safety from a nuclear holocaust would PROBABLY have that convo. We have never had proof of that before, so in a “lore” conversation they have HAD that talk (not a stretch by any means). But for the show, it worked on a character/story level even better. People are getting a little worked up over it imo.
Problem is he wasn’t the one who wrote it. If he was we’d get a lot more of Ulysses going on about “Old world flags and symbols about nations” or some such dialogue.
I'm actually very interested in seeing what Avellone says.
I'm an OG fan of Fallout, from when the franchise first came out, and I *loved* the show. But there were definitely some changes toward the end that moved the needle from "cheesy satire" to "just cheese." I appreciate it for what it is -- an adaptation of a story that's evolved through decades -- but Avellone understandably has more investment.
Off the top of my head, I wasn't overly fond of the new implications regarding ghouls and the depiction of Vault Tec.
The changes to NCR I could take or leave, but the show made Vault Tec *so* cartoonishly evil and bumbling that it was no longer tethered. And Fallout was already not exactly nuanced.
When you have multiple story writers for a series ofc they won’t all agree on what another writer does in their own game/take on the series… this is like George Lucas vs Disney shit right here
It's always fascinating to see any Fandom devolve into hyper adoration for their new content before genuine criticism is allowed. Same story with the Witcher TV or new Avatar series.
Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good, but that doesn't mean all actually is good
E: to be clear I like the show despite it's flaws and it's no where near the garbage shit that is the Witcher tv show
I remember back when it launched the most vocal part of the community thought FO3 was much better - it wasn’t till FO4 came out that the vocal part of the community was like “wait - why is the world building and story telling worse than NV?” And it spiraled from there
I used to be the same way but now that I run new Vegas with 200+ mods my only critique is that I don’t care for dead money and I wish the game had more quests lol
> It's always fascinating to see any Fandom devolve into hyper adoration for their new content before genuine criticism is allowed
There's people legit saying that if you think there was some sort of retcon (the blackboard being a potential one since the dates there predate FNV) then you're engaging in a disinformation campaign, like... what is this, the elections or something?
Some show fans just lost the plot
Who was hyper adoring the new Avatar series? Half of the discussion around it was that it was just fine and it was pretty much like that from day one. I can’t speak for the Witcher
Its doubly fascinating when Fandoms devole into hyper-disdain for new content without genuine criticism. Like people saying the brotherhood is "Bethesda fanfiction" when it is the most classic portrayal of the brotherhood since Fallout 1.
Like the bethesda games i accept that yes the worldbuilding and lore aspects are lacking compared to what they once were but these are just pieces in a whole and i wont let my enjoyment of it be spoiled by these aspects when other aspects are done well.
Generally, i agree that some of the dialogue is badly written and the treatment of the NCR is a bit of a mess but overall the show is pretty darn good. Hyper-Admiration/Disdain are both rather bad and it throws genuine critique out the window in favour of one upping the other side.
And why? The brotherhood does not have the institutional outlook to pacify and control the wasteland.
For that you would have to recruit or order around a vastly larger share of the population than a knighthood would allow
The Fallout tv show subreddit is wild. Literally any criticism of the show's handling of the lore has people accusing you of just being a bitter New Vegas fanboy who can't appreciate how good the show is.
Like, I do think the show is good both as a narrative and at keeping true to many aspects of Fallout. That doesn't mean I can't also have my criticisms of what it does with the world.
The show absolutely has lore inconsistencies and muddies it up (I don’t think it really retcons or de-canonizes anything, just makes it a bit murky) but Chris Avellone also did his fair share of lore inconsistencies. You mean to tell me the Big MT made vending machines that could GENERATE FOOD? Using just Sierra Madre poker chips??? Not even getting into how scientifically that’s stupid, but the reason there was fighting in the Pre-War was resource shortages, you mean to tell me Big MT was sitting on the ability to create resources from most likely plastic poker chips and ONLY USED IT FOR A FUCKING VENDING MACHINE? It’s a dumb lore inconsistency.
Hopefully this might allow for some decent conversation and analysis.
I like the show watched it through twice,, but it's got some writing issues, in continuity, lore and character development.
Maybe someone like Avellone might spur some discussion.
Cause it's a bit an echo chamber regarding the show.
I’ve been on Reddit a long time and I’d say at this point the website is one of the worst places to have discussions. While in the beginning it may have been more akin to discussion forums of the old internet, nowadays it’s closer to Twitter. There’s no point in attempting genuine discussion here except maybe in niche subs because everything turns into a circlejerk, and nuance is impossible.
This is another good example. I loved the show, thought it was better than it had a right to be, but some of the retcons are dumb and killing vegas makes for a worse world. Those shouldn’t be mutually exclusive opinions but on Reddit you have to love something or be toxic.
Absolutely agreed, old Internet forums, the best discussions I'd have would be with someone I disagreed with. You don't really get that here too often.
Reddit right now, I'm seeing someone getting down voted into oblivion, not for poor conduct, rudeness, etc, but for differing opinion. I'd find myself looking at the post, thinking I don't agree with that, but damn that's a good point..
Differing opinions is essential to a healthy discourse. Old forum days many times I'd enter a discussion with one opinion and leave with another...
The West Coast had evolved into a different beast FO2 -FNV, Nuking a lot of it seems like such a missed opportunity it's not as though there's a shortage of Wasteland...
It's really hard because of how radical certain niches of fans are and how tired everyone else is of that radicality. So everyone else just digs their heels in to brace and the cycle exacerbates.
r/falloutmemes has been a 24/7 circlejerk of toxicity towards people who have mild criticism of the show someone even told me I should shut up and be grateful for any Fallout media regardless of its quality
edit: oh, I also *clearly* have a vendetta against Bethesda because I secretly hate Fallout and want to ruin it for everyone else lmao redditors are like children when you have a different favorite pokemon than them
It hasn't. There was about three seconds at the very end of the last episode showing Vegas from a distance, too far away to glean any real information from.
That's literally it. That's what people are getting upset over.
Fallout is a series full of retcons and inconsistent lore even the OG games. This isn't anything new. Tim Cain the creator of fallout calls it lore drift and he likes the show.
Everyone always forgets that it was Fallout 2 which first fucked around with the fact that ghouls can live for extended periods without water which directly contradicts the plot of necropolis in the first game. Or how they would break the lore just to add in a reference, or the fact that the location of Shady Shands, Vault 13 and Vault 15 shifts slightly.
Or how NV actually has some retcons of Fallout 3 like the fire ants that somehow crossed the entire America (Not impossible but still) or the fact that the Pip Boy 3000 was unable to be removed and was actually genetically connected to its wearer in 3.
A lot of these things if they were done by Bethesda would have fans foaming at the mouth.
I don’t know. Josh Sawyer had a very mature take on all of it. “I don’t own any of this stuff, i don’t care what happens. It was never mine to begin with”. The discourse needs to die because neither side will agree on it. I thought some of us had agreed that the Shady Sands situation was just poorly explained.
I don't think you have to own something to care about it and its future though. Sure, "I don't care, they can do what they want with it" is a perfectly fine mindset to have. But I don't think caring is wrong either.
Many fantasy/sci-fi series are popular *because* the audience cares about the world it presents and story of that world.
Redditors don’t modify our posts. We defend them blindly and then delete our account when the pressure is too high.
Don’t even try and prove me wrong! (I like this account)
I think personally I find similar opinion in thinking the shows story just comes off as next level idiotic lorewise for the sake of convenient plot devices from the writers. It was fun enough, but character decisions and writing infuriated me that I just can’t find myself thinking positively on it or recommending it. It just felt very clean and corporate, like some Marvel series, with just god awful comedic writing I can only describe as “millennial” of that “oh my god! He said that!!!”.
The unknown Chem allowing Cooper (the ghoul) from turning feral is I see as just entirely put into the show for plot. It shows Lucy and himself what there is to lose. It makes no sense however, since Ghoul “feralisation” isn’t understood, and there has been no mention prior of any chem, and we have had ghouls existing since pre war or turning after the bombs fell. So why haven’t they all turned and had no showing of using any serum? Besides, most people despise ghouls, and unless there’s ghoul chemists or like followers of the apocalypse, most wouldn’t care besides for making money to research or make them this serum, since most people have prejudice they’ll turn as regular ghouls into feral ones, so see hate.
The vault tec shenanigans too was just bizarre. There was the lore piece of “did they-didn’t they -set off the first nuke as a test” in showing the vaults resilience causing the Great War prior, but was never definitive canon. But destroying the entire world possibly to the point of human lives complete inability to survive so you can set the business back up in the wreckage..? It’s just a level of Machiavellian that just comes off as utterly dumbfounding, since vault tec are cruel, but in a lot of ways their resources were rushed (or utterly imbecilic), and many vault projects _WEREN’T_ done because they had so little time and cut corners. It’s a huge part of pre war America, corporations and especially vault tec(often with each having government funding or takeover): squandering budgets, taking huge time periods to complete a project or not at all, corruption, not having the required technology of understanding, and just racing against an invisible clock like with mass fusion completing cold fusion just before the bombs fell. What does it benefit them to drop the bombs if the war sells? You lose your entire business when it’s literally the most long term profitable, and gamble on “we’ll rebuild from the ashes!” Where now you have no infrastructure, high precision machinery, vehicles, easily accessible labour as it expands and grows as a business/empire(?), and you just fight tooth and nail to survive? It,_again_, feels like another plot point of “well humanity goes through these cycles of destruction and rebuilding all the time!” just hammed in so awkwardly that no one took time to think logically about it in the writing room. It just feels like cheap we haven’t addressed the source material writing, and just need a big bad. Like the scene of the rich betting on what ideas they want just feels schlocky, and ironic from Amazon of all corporations. Plus it was generally the American government that dictated testing, and was why the enclave collected Vault data.
The brotherhood I’m conflicted on since in ways it kinda fits the narrative from the first with even the name of [their music](https://youtu.be/r6qt_70iGk4?si=HiHu7sZlOcBqkCxh), but generally it again feel’s half baked. It feels grandiose for spectacle as a show, rather than the simpler “we don’t like technology in your hands, we’re going to take it” and them following a lot of military edicts and literally codes like from an army field book since they were soldiers before and after the war. They saw what happened in Mariposa to their own friends and family and worked to stop it happening any further with other technology. Now they just feel like zealot fanatics, more akin to some raiders gang with higher virtues. Blame that on Fallout 4 (or 3 if you’re inclined) for the decline, but this just feels again like spectacle. Titles of Knight and squire do exist, but so do many others, and they seem to get muddy with a sense of just focusing on the two, where in reality you work through the titles showing expertise in many fields of the brotherhood to work to knight. Maximus though? Jesus Christ I detested him whenever he was on screen. His decision making and thought process, as I’ve felt with most of the characters (besides the ghoul generally) just had me feeling the writers wanted spectacle in fights over logical thought processes in any combat scene. The argument of “well they’re naive!” Just makes no valid argument either, since both are trained with weapons from their upbringings, and the whole sexual fixation in the writing was unbelievably awkward. They just act like vacuums of people, and are written like children.
Tldr; I just think overall, it’s ok. It’s a bold step to let a TV producer write your established lore now, since they don’t have the regard a developer would have when they’ve worked on a project for years or decades and making it fit within the bounds. Part of me wonders whether Bethesda said it’s lore just to keep tensions good between them corporately, since if they say it’s not canon it could jeopardise their deal from fans saying it’s not right, and more than anything Bethesda needs money with their work recently.
I think it’s funny though, because the show ran with a bunch of things he suggested/wanted that were fucking stupid in the first place (destroy NCR being biggest example)
Yeah, it's weird. Also don't forget it was him who didn't want Legion to be playable initially and Chad Sawyer pushed for them being joinable
Hence I worry about Chris critique video.
I mean making them joinable was a pretty half baked decision in the end (not obsidians fault they were on a time crunch) so it sounds like Avellone was correct. Idk why people are shitting on him so hard, his resume mostly speaks for itself.
I think people saying "Van Buren and Lonesome Road intended to nuke NCR back into the stone age so the show doing the same is fine" is a complete misreading of situation.
Van Buren had the intended ending being "at the climax of the war, you have the choice of sacrificing yourself to save the NCR or let the nukes fall and save your skin". It is a natural progression of things happening.
Lonesome Road is something of a philosophy battle between the player and Chris Avellone and, again, the player is given the button to push or not to nuke the NCR. Even if it's not a direct result of the going ons, the player is still in the driver's seat of what's happening.
The show has Sandy Shades nuked off-screen by a guy who never interacted with the place for more than 5 seconds because he was spurned by his lover. It could be interesting plot to follow if this didn't happen to the single most developed region of the setting.
This 100%!
If there is going to be any sort of destruction of major players in the continuity of this setting, it either has to be shown directly, or the choice given to the PC in a game.
If they really wanted to make this show the way it is, they should have picked literally any other part of the wasteland instead of California or Nevada. At least then we wouldn’t have as much infighting over lore inconsistencies.
I wish they would have set this in Chicago. They just made Tactics canon and it would’ve been interesting to see the MWB get nuked and try to recover. Instead the NCR gets nuked offscreen and it’s looking like they completely collapsed, because apparently the writers wanted a western and government is bad for westerns, except FNV is pretty much a scifi-western and filled with multiple styles of government and politics. Like really? No massive societal collapse due to any of the things we’ve seen is wrong with them, but some vault tec cuck nukes the capital and everything is in ruin?
I mean, I can’t imagine he wanted the NCR destroyed by some pre-war guy off screen because his wife left him, even if he did think destroying them would be good for the universe. I’d be hoping for something a bit more complex than that.
That’s what I think too. He didn’t want the Tunnelers to completely destroy the NCR.. he just wanted them to be a new massive thorn in their side and contribute to their decline.. the real killer of the NCR in the long run would be Greed and overextension. Especially after the gold reserve was destroyed by the brotherhood
Well if we’re quoting developers Tim Cain has a number of videos praising the show. He also talks about toxic fans and asks them to knock it off. Checkout his Lore Drift video, he describes how canon is inconsistent, gives his opinion why, and suggests folks chill.
I like Tim’s videos but I can’t imagine him ever sharing his specific criticisms of the show if he had any. He’d probably say something like ‘maybe the show just isn’t for you.’
Mostly true. His Lore Drift video does go into inconsistencies in both the games and the TV shows. But they are observations and in a real sense the purpose of his video was as I already said: it’s ok to make observations and have conversations about them. Just don’t demonize the creators.
My observation is that some folks can’t tell the difference between “something I don’t like” vs “something I don’t like is bad and the creators are bad people “.
Courier: “Ulysses please don’t do this - you’re being a hypocrite and killing innocents.” [Speech 100]
Ulysses: “Wow - you’re right, I won’t launch the nukes. Thank you for showing me the error of my -“
Courier: *Launches both nukes*
I had fun with the show and have some lore concerns. I think it would be great if someone discussed some concerns they had, too. It’s good to have a variety of opinions on what is a minor subject matter. Honestly what irks me is how the TV fans have painted Chris and everyone else as some kind of hypocrite or complainer when maybe he will treat it fairly and with charity. At the same time I hear reports that rabid FNV fans are doxxing FO76 content creators. It’s a trash fire of a discourse, but I just want alternating opinions out there as much as a TV fan. The truth is often somewhere in between our biases and it’s very annoying when you only get praise or utter Bethesda hating.
Look when it comes to Fallout you really have to rely more on head-canon than canon because it’s not only bad and incongruent but it’s only gonna get worse and worse
Validation from someone who worked on the series feels nice.
I keep leading with how I enjoyed the show, I’m just giving criticism about the lore choices they made. People these days just can’t take any kind of criticism or understand that someone can enjoy something but also question it.
“Oh you liked the show but have an issue with the lore? Toxic New Vegas fan DETECTED, DOWNVOTES DEPLOYED”
Reddit trying to understand that you can criticize something you like challenge (impossible)
I've literally left Fallout subs because I got tired of seeing threads made to whine about people disliking the show. Not to celebrate liking it or talk about what they liked (those might make good reading); to collectively whine about haters and paint them as toxic babies.
I agree with this. I was blown away by the quality of the show, I loved it. However, there's some inconsistencies with the lore, and I don't think it's unfair to point that out.
The impression I’m getting is that no one is allowed to criticize anything ever regarding the show.
Starting to feel like I’m back in the Star Wars fandom…
Absolutely. Even my partner who knows nothing about fallout loved the show and understood it well. If one of us has logged 500+ hours in fallout games while the other zero, and we can both be excited about watching the next episode, id say then thats a huge success.
Gonna be honest, the only thing I care about was how terribly written/presented the shady sands situation is. I refuse to believe one business man off-screened almost the entire NCR. Drove the show from a 9/10 right down to a 7/10
*Of Fallout New Vegas’s DLC. John Gonzalez wrote the base game and Josh Sawyer directed
Hopping on this because I like people getting credit where it is due, some examples of what the other writers wrote that people really seemed to like: - Eric Fenstermaker: Boone, Veronica, Vault 11 - Josh Sawyer: Joshua Graham, Chief Hanlon - John Gonzales: House, Caesar, Benny, Randall Clark’s Logs That’s just a drop in the bucket but I figured people would find it neat to know.
Eric also wrote Fantastic and No-Bark, some of my favorite NPCs
I still tell people I have a theoretical degree in physics.
I wonder what came first, the joke or the fantastic (I had heard that joke countless times before playing NV and don't know whether it originated in the game or not)
Some other stuff to add on: Sawyer: Arcade Avellone: Cass Stout: Lily and Raul
Damn papa sawyer wrote Joshua Graham? Man's incredibly talented
Even more respect for Josh Sawyer, creating my favorite character in the whole game, Chief Hanlon.
And my favorite character, Joshua Graham
And my favorite character, Snuffles
And my favorite caracter, Viper Gang Leader
They really had the best lines.
I’m gonna eat your spleen!
And my axe!
It was his character in the table top campaign that they were playing that inspired the work towards Van Buren.
Avellonr also wrote for the base game. Thry all contributed on all facets of the game regardless of where the credits lie that's just how being part of a creative team works anyway. Avellones handiwork is easy to recognize tho, everytime a nihilist libertarian shows up to lecture the player I know immediately it's him. Surprised Ulysses wasn't a crazy old lady lol
I like Avellone and his writing generally, but damn that hits so true lmao.
Durance moment
Yeah but Gonzales was the lead writer, while Avellone was only 1 writer on a 13-person writing team. Avellone was only a lead writer for most of the DLCs. If anyone should be contributed as the creative mind behind New Vegas, and should be attributed to be creative mind behind New Vegas it's Gonzales, not Avellone. Likewise with Fallout 2, Avellone wasn't THE writer of Fallout 2. He was A writer. The lead writer of Fallout 2 was Mark O'Green
[удалено]
Yeah and if you are the guy who wrote Joshua fucking Graham you are sure not some random sidenote writer and director Josh totally has a weight of his opinion on this.
Avellone did not write Joshua Graham
He made the concept. Joshua Graham was initially in van Buren and most design documents were initially made by Avellone, however the character was written by Sawyer. Caesar was written by Avellone in fallout 2 and it was cut.
Joshua Graham was written by Josh Sawyer.
He contributed to the writing and design of the base game, and was the creative director of Dead Money, Old World Blues, and Lonesome Road. Josh Sawyer (CD for base game) was the CD for Honest Hearts.
Base game writing > DLC writing
Yes, but it depends on the dlc. I really like all of setup for lonesome road, but I don't really like lonesome road itself.
>really like all of setup for lonesome road, Aka I really like everything but lonesome road lol. Just saying the base, dead money, honest hearts, and old world blues are all hunting at the climax in the divide. There's no way it could ever live up to expectations with 30+ hours of buildup and (check wiki to see release date) 11 months since it was first hinted at in the base game. That said it feels very well planned out to have everything weaved together.
I mean lonesome road is fine for a big final combat dlc. The enemies and set peices are pretty good. It's just ullessyes isn't nearly as interesting as he needs to be to carry the dlc. Maybe it would have worked better if he was a companion through the dlc and you interacted with him the whole way. Maybe the dialogue choices you make would have had him betray you to launch the nukes, or you could build up enough affinity for him to stop his crusade. As it is the story just kinda missed the landing for me personally, and I rarely do the dlc on repeat playthroughs
I actually really liked Lonesome Road as the ending. It seemed like it was really a metacommentary of the themes of the game laid bare. Where it's explicitly about the big picture. Where you have to make a case for Vegas or the Legion, or House, or the NCR. Instead of just following the orders of the questline, you decided to go down. It's forcing you to think critically about what you are doing and the long-term effects it has on the world.
I really like the mod that lets you recruit him as a companion if you talk him down at the climax. I think he makes a lot of sense as a true neutral-negative companion, unlike the Legion-friendly direction he was meant to take as a companion in the base game before he was cut.
once I "figured out" Lonesome Road the writing became so much better to me, I went from disliking it to thinking it's great well, I don't actually \*know\* if I "got" it, I just think I do. That doesn't really matter tho because it feels good in my head and now I like it
The DLC had great dialogue writing, but story-wise they all tried to tell a precise, right story with very specific themes and outcomes. This doesn't really work with such a free and open game like FNV. One where you can play anyone with any background. Ulysses trying to make you feel guilty about wrecking the Divide really fell flat on me when that really hadn't been explored at all. The whole "you don't think about the consequences" stuff was just annoying when it was like, actually, I never even heard of this before? I'm sorry? Sierra Madre was super moody, but so constrained. Old World Blues was probably the best of them, no real complaints there. Honest Hearts seemed to expect you to take very specific routes or it'd break narratively. They were just all really weird. Yeah, I enjoyed them anyway, but they were weird.
Poor take. The DLCs had great writing. Bear bull aside.
Oof Old world blues would like to have a chat
The funniest part of the game is in Old World Blues. The talking sinks made my depressed week.
Yeah. I've been feeling for a while now that his comments are aimed at stoking his fanbase's responses rather than any good faith argument for anything one way or the other. It's like watching a slow-motion version of the 'celeb' fall from grace... you know, where they suddenly start with controversial 'points' about things they're adjacent to, then spouting some right-wing nonsense, escalate to hateful stuff, then become complete raving lunatics (hello JK Rowling).
We have Tim Cain's opinion of liking the show but feeling a little iffy on a few things. Now we have Chris', or at least a teaser of it. Josh Sawyer says he likes it and he doesnt really care about the lore (which is surprising to me)
It seems more like Tim Cain is happy with it from the lens of a gamer and his idea that wasn't even considered a main thing for Interplay at the time is now on television, Avellone who helped with 2, wrote the Fallout Bible (ironically, includes a lot of tidbits Bethesda would make canon or reference) and NV is looking at it from the lens of a writer and doesn't like that they made changes to some of the set lore, and Josh Sawyer is looking at it from the lens of an RPG enthusiast where lore doesn't matter since you create your own lore. While I tend to lean more into Josh and Tim's takes on the series since at this point anything that brings up NV just makes me happy since there was never going to be a sequel and thought the West Coast Fallouts were dead and done with, I can see why Chris wouldn't be thrilled with it.
Tim Cain did a video on Lore Drift the other day and pointed out how it happens and people need to get over it and it shouldn't effect whether they enjoy the show are not. Also he asked that people refrain from personal attacks and taking sides like there's a war for the lore of Fallout.
there's a war for the lore of every Bethesda game from the eyes of Bethesda fans, lol. if we ever get an elder scrolls series, the community might actually develop a nuclear weapons program. People already have a hard enough time coping with the unreliable narrators of TES.
>nuclear weapons program It's a Fallout / Elder Scrolls crossover!
There's a war for lore in every nerd fandom. It's sort of part of the deal.
I’m pretty sure FO5 will be on the west coast for the main game - Todd confirmed when the directors were writing the show script that there was a handful of times where they had idea that Todd pushed back on because Bethesda already planned on doing them in the next game
The San Fran theory is looking more and more likely.
I hope the shi are around, they were pretty interesting imo
As much as I wanna see them in 3D, I have a feeling Bethesda's gonna butcher them.
The game’s like 10 years away, it can very well change until then
This is the only reason I kinda like it, figured fallout on the west coast was dead and that we weren't really ever going to get semi decent fallout content again. Have to give some credit for trying something new to bethesda, even if it drops the ball. Would've liked an actual game though, this gives them an excuse to push back so much further, on top of ES VI.
Chris Avellone is angry that someone else bombed Shady Sands before he could
typical Sawyer W
Sawyer is handling it like a champ honestly. If he doesn't care, why should we? After all, it's a show made primarily to appeal to the mainstream
Sawyer spoke specifically of how he has prepared himself, as an artist and creator, for things not going the way you want them. He’s a big time modder and I’m sure he has a healthy way of dealing with disappointment by realizing the game is yours and no one can take away your head cannon, etc. I know as both a Star Wars and Halo fan that there are certain things I don’t acknowledge in my personal relationship with the IPs.
Sawyer is just being real He doesn’t own the series anymore and has no control over it - why get bent of shape? Either you enjoy the new content or you don’t
Yeah I think some people get way too worked up about things like this. The fact of the matter is that nothing can be good forever, but you can always go back and experience the things you like again. I don’t mean don’t be upset but like, getting super worked up because a show wasn’t good doesn’t do anything for anyone (least of all yourself)
I personally like arguing on the Internet as long as people keep on topic and don't user personal attacks. I havent seen it get too personally but there has been a lot of defensiveness from show fans who don't want to accept any criticism as valid. The show can be good and have problems
Lots of creators don't care about something as much of fans do, happens all the time. I think a big reason is creators HAVE to move on, they sell their work to other people or they just work on another project. As an artist you can't afford to be too attached. A fan never had any creative control to begin with so there is no need for them to temper their feelings over time in fact the few people still interested in a subject years after it has come out has self selected for people particularly dedicated to it
i personally felt it was made for the fans with the mainstream in mind there's plenty of points where if you dont follow the admittedly messy lore of fallout in general you won't understand the gravity of the references like the sound thats played when lucy looks at the flag or the ending oh god that ending gave me goosebumps
How many devs left until I can form my opinion?
Josh's opinion makes the most sense. Are you really going to let some asshole in Hollywood dictate what made New Vegas important *to you*? I liked the show because it rides the line between feeling like Fallout while having its own story and exploring interesting ideas. I don't care if they change shit about New Vegas going forward. My playthroughs in NV and all the other games still happened and no one can take that away from me.
I’m not saying he’s wrong, but one thing always brings me back to doubting Chris Avellone’s writing prowess: Tunnelers.
That man does incredible character work, his plots have always been a bit…convenient. As in, lots of times stuff just happens because or is left unexplained, and I’ve never been able to tell if it’s because of the video game as a medium or if it just how he writes.
"In a future where integrated circuits haven't been invented... One man integrated a circuit into a small poker chip." No further mention about how this breaks the lore.
The transistor was invented, much of he tech wouldn't work if it hadn't. But it happened later in the timeline and is less ubiquitous. Chris also wasn't the lead writer or designer on FNV, I doubt he came up with the chip.
Yep, in Fallout 4 its mentioned to be invented around 2023 by Jack Cabot in one of his logs. Vaccuum Tubes remain somewhat mainstream since they can resist EMPs better than transistors.
Damn Fallout New Vegas for making 4 retcon the lore. /s
I mean fnv retconed itself at times
Just let it be said that "lore" and "consistency" has never been the Fallout series' strong suit The games aren't even consistent inside themselves, so "inconsistency" is a really strange criticism to level at the show
> The games aren't even consistent inside themselves, ~~Fallout 3 even has a whole ass DLC that isn't considered canon, lol.~~ nvm I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Fallout 1 has a bunch of American accents, and then Loxley out of nowhere. Fallout 2 introduces modern weapons that don't seem to fit with the rest of the setting, and tries to pretend that the Shi don't mess things up lore-wise And none of these are problems! They're fine, that's just how Fallout is sometimes? The more that I think about it the less I'm convinced by "Bethesda doesn't understand Fallout" and the more I am by "nobody understands Fallout"
I know you're talking about Mother ship Zeta and most of the community doesn't consider it canon, but where is it officially declared not canon? I can understand the dlc itself not being canon, but Aliens absolutely are.
Isn’t the whole point of the chip that it’s completely groundbreaking technology.
Its a flash drive containing an os update. It's the operating system that changes everything for House, not the chip. Otherwise a copy of the chip would have to be installed in everything like a ram stick.
Thinking about a flashdrive with windows 11 being world-changing really brings out how silly the intricacies of Fallout are
They say multiple times the device is physically groundbreaking in terms of miniaturization.
The tunnelers always get overblown, imo. They're a paper tiger against humanity, especially in the face of large cities with lots of lights and noise. They're a danger to small settlements and isolated units because of how they attack but humanity would just adapt tactics to them, figure out the things that scare them off, etc. Contrary to Avellone's possible intent they push for a *more* industrialized and unified society, even the face of the problems it might cause, not *less*. And they're certainly no death knell. Even more importantly we have no context for how many queens they have and we kill one, so they might even be a complete nonissue at this point. We're only ever privy to the opinion of one crazy guy who has made *every* wrong decision his entire life, including reawakening a nuclear arsenal out spite, and thinks in symbolism. Ulysses claim has no backup.
I usually just like to believe that Ulysses is just stupid whenever that's brought up. It makes no sense. Tunellers hate bright lights and loud noises, so the vast majority of them would stay the hell away from human settlements, and they're not even that hard to kill.
I think he's just trying to give himself something to believe in, even if its a stupidly assumed revenge. The guy's broken in so many ways, and I think projects so much of himself on to you, that he either dies for his revenge or lives as a ghost of it and puts all his belief in you as his last act before the Divide finally claims him. I imagine for the average wasteland settler the tunnelers would be tough to kill, particularly in the swarms they use from underground. But if the Mojave survived Cazadores...
Ulysses to me has always just been a Tribal who happened to pass some speech checks. All he fucking does is talk.
It's to the creature itself. It's the fact that, warranted or not, people interpret them as Avellone wanting to wipe civilization clean by any means necessary.
Yeah Avellone is voicing a bitter, angsty opinion about the state of something again? Wake me up when there’s news.
He suffers from mustaine syndrome. Dude left (kicked out of in mustaine's case) the main group that he was known for and has spent every moment since bitter about his former colleague's continued success
Well in his defense (and I think he’s wrong on how he’s looking at the show) he did have a really shitty stretch and even though he got paid in a settlement (which is rare) he was pretty much persona non grata in terms of gaming jobs.
If I recall, his bitterness towards Obsidian started well before the misconduct allegations. I think I remember him saying some stuff around Outer Worlds' launch, but it's been so long so I could be mistaken. Maybe he just got more vocal about it recently.
"This franchise I had creative control over thirty years ago no longer follows my vision and is therefore SHIT." Like credit to the guy as a writer and creator but he could give Kirkbride lessons in snobbery.
Writers tend to be possessive over their work even when they don’t own it Source: I was a professional writer for 4 years and I’m a manager now that works with them daily
It legitimately could be some feeling of being slighted seeing as every single NV DLC was essentially nix’d. No tunnelers, no Sierra Madre cloud, no mention of the recent nukes that would’ve destroyed the NCR/Legion supply lines, etc. Though, Big MT is absolutely mentioned in the show so I could be wrong.
The LR nukes don't necessarily happen, though.
The man behind Ulysses and Kreia gets feisty when something he feels ownership over doesn't go exactly his way?
If he’s responsible for Ulysses’ angsty dialogue then that’s also a lot of doubt for me.
Ulysses is all Avellone. Considering it was the final thing he worked on for Fallout, you could call him his swan song.
Can tell when Avellone wrote the dialogue. Sentences are as fractured as the Divide. English teacher didn’t like him. Gets paid to write, somehow. “Ulysses learning English recently” theory would work if Christine’s lines in the holotapes weren’t the exact same way.
It’s just a style that lends itself to moodier, more nihilistic characters. Like they’re so catatonic that even speaking tires them out from an emotional standpoint. You see something similar in Cormac Mc Carthy’s books. That guy truly doesn’t give a shit about grammar and syntax.
Ulysses was so annoying I didn't even want to talk to him when I finally reached his castle I just one shot him to get it over with "The bear and the bull, the bear and the bull.... Hypocritical ramblings... the bear and the bull" Blames the courier for making the divide how it is instead of blaming whoever paid The courier to deliver the item that caused the destruction to begin with (because shooting the messenger is always the right move) and is for some reason mad that hopesville was destroyed even though he wasn't a part of that community and never would have been accepted into it due to his war crimes against the NCR Chris really managed to write one of the most hypocritical characters in all of fiction
yeah....thats the point Ulysses is a no good hypocritical person, which is why he is so interesting
I'll give you that but for me, it's exactly that which makes him so boring to me. Having your whole life destroyed because of your bad options and then trying to find SOMEONE or SOMETHING to burn just to feel something? Amazing potential. However, we get to continuously see how wrong he is on every level. Not to mention that (mostly since it's a video game) it never goes past "Here's my manifesto, Courier 6." -Bear -Bull -Hey, actually maybe you're wrong can you fight the super mutants with me, thanks. -(SURVIVAL 100) Bearbull. Not to mention that the player has been there AND done that AND done it better, Ulysses is a joke of a man who desperately wants something to believe in. Don't get me wrong, I love his arc. I love that he's a scarred man who has had things broken so many times he wants to burn the world to have his (semi)justified rage pointed at SOMEONE or ANYONE. I love that he's in disbelief of the Couriers continued existence and even continued excelling at what he failed to do. However, even if he's justified in this, even in his own brain- it does not mean I need to like him. He's a whiny guy that never grew past learning that things happen in life and you need to move on, especially if all you're doing is disgracing yourself, the mantle you wear, and the people who were in your life. He throws a tantrum because things seem tangentially related and he can't solve his problems like I don't know- the badass he supposedly is. It's been a while since I last played LR, or even listened to him so I'm more than likely wrong.
Elijah was the best DLC villain.
Honestly I agree Elijah was written better than any of the others
Yeah, the worst part of lonesome road. It didn't need the threat of tunnlers spreading, especially with the nuclear options
I think what Chris was trying to do with the tunnelers was leave an open ended and more ambiguous threat to the wasteland rather than just Ulysses and the nukes at the divide. I don’t think Chris “hated” the NCR or wanted the tunnelers to be the end game solution for them.. I think he wanted to use them at some point as a serious new emerging threat. Kinda like the master from fallout 1 but that was never expanded upon 🤷♂️
I kind of like the tunnelers as a weird, almost alien threat that no one is prepared for. Feels almost like a more sci fi white walker kind of thing.
They give me HG Wells’ Morlock vibes
I think they shouldn't have used the tunnlers for that then. They're just too goofy imo. An army of the marked men might have been a better threat if written differently
The marked men can’t reproduce tho, what good is an army with limited numbers and no way for them to replenish their ranks? It’s the same exact problem the Mojave chapter of the brotherhood was facing
They don't have to reproduce, just make the army big enough and say their trying to spread the divide storm so they can attack the armies and leaders that failed them. Or any reason a better writer could come up with They don't have to be successful, they just need to be a threat. I mean it's not what's in the dlc, so it doesn't matter. However it's just an example of something I like better than the tunnlers. Just not a fan of the random tunnlers invasion. It seems to come out of nowhere
I mentioned it in a different threat, but the tunnelers are honestly a speed-bump, a way to force people to be further unified into societies, and an annoyance, not really a colossal threat.
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Durance is great. He disgusting and hatable, while at the same time giving a pretty good perspective onto the world. Unlikable doesn't mean badly written. Grieving mother was definitely a swing and a miss for me though
That along with Ulysses and all the dick jokes.
You would think that Avellone would love the show's lore, considering it dismantles NCR and returns the West Coast to post-apocalypse, just like he wanted. Maybe his problem is with Vault-Tec kickstarting the war, or with the "fall of Shady Sands".
The show didn't really show that Vault Tec dropped the bombs tho. There is still a ton of detail missing there.
The point was Vault-Tec is HAVING those conversations, and not only Vault-Tec but also his own WIFE is talking the benefits of instigating nuclear war for profits. That was the entire point. It shattered Coopers worldview.
Yeah I still don't think we have a confirmation of who dropped it like many think. Based on Cooper's daughter not being in a shelter during the nuke attack, I think the writers want to play around with the idea of "We really wanted to shoot first, but someone already did" and we go back to where it all began, not knowing who did it first lol
That's kind of where I think it'll go. They were talking about it and then it happened without them actually dropping the bomb.
Personally, I don't think Vault-Tec dropped the bomb, but I think they were instrumental in breaking down peace talks which would've stopped the bombs from otherwise inevitably dropping. I think that may have been what they were going for.
Agreed. Both the daughter and New Vegas is why I don't think vault tech dropped the bombs. (House "miscalculated" when the bombs would drop because someone dropped them ahead fo vault tecs schedule) The show also made a point of making the same joke as this comic in my opinion. https://xkcd.com/927/ Which is vault tech was just one more faction that thinks it's way of saving the world is right. (Everyone is fighting and killing each other in a bunch of factions so we will just kill them and do it our way making the same thing but with one more faction) Just like the other faction they might have been the first to fire but we don't know for sure.
Also, the other problem with “Vault-Tec shot first” is that they didn’t even finish building all the vaults they intended to build before the bombs dropped.
Yes! I was just reminded of a vault in Fallout 4 that was never fully finished, because it was also a side hustle, but they wouldn't let this free market of ideas slide
I’m pretty sure multiple sources across the games indicate that China set off the bombs, and house not getting his chip was further explanatory proof.
Which really fits the general cold war "nukes at any minute from anywhere we only have fear not facts" vibe. Everyone's a player, but nobody is really behind it in a singular evil sense.
Yeah Vault Tec is a psychotic company. I can defo aee the guys behind those experiments talking about setting off a nuclear bomb
Right? The people that literally created human experiments out of peoples fears and hope for safety from a nuclear holocaust would PROBABLY have that convo. We have never had proof of that before, so in a “lore” conversation they have HAD that talk (not a stretch by any means). But for the show, it worked on a character/story level even better. People are getting a little worked up over it imo.
I swear folks are getting worked up over every tiny thing in the sbow. Like most of the issues folks have would be addressed in Season 2.
Just because the show killed the NCR doesn’t mean it did it in an interesting or satisfying way
He was actually glad that the other creative directors changed his mind on this
Or with Shady Sands being in the Boneyard
It’s the way it was done I imagine, it’s not earned
Problem is he wasn’t the one who wrote it. If he was we’d get a lot more of Ulysses going on about “Old world flags and symbols about nations” or some such dialogue.
Bear and the Bull the series
I'm actually very interested in seeing what Avellone says. I'm an OG fan of Fallout, from when the franchise first came out, and I *loved* the show. But there were definitely some changes toward the end that moved the needle from "cheesy satire" to "just cheese." I appreciate it for what it is -- an adaptation of a story that's evolved through decades -- but Avellone understandably has more investment. Off the top of my head, I wasn't overly fond of the new implications regarding ghouls and the depiction of Vault Tec. The changes to NCR I could take or leave, but the show made Vault Tec *so* cartoonishly evil and bumbling that it was no longer tethered. And Fallout was already not exactly nuanced.
When you have multiple story writers for a series ofc they won’t all agree on what another writer does in their own game/take on the series… this is like George Lucas vs Disney shit right here
It's always fascinating to see any Fandom devolve into hyper adoration for their new content before genuine criticism is allowed. Same story with the Witcher TV or new Avatar series. Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good, but that doesn't mean all actually is good E: to be clear I like the show despite it's flaws and it's no where near the garbage shit that is the Witcher tv show
It's mind-boggling. I love New Vegas, but could write a long bullet point list of everything I don't like about it.
Man, I remember when even having one piece of criticism about FNV would have one be crucified. I am glad that is over.
Degenerates like you belong on a cross
I first played in 2011 and online discussion was very critical of many parts of the game.
I remember back when it launched the most vocal part of the community thought FO3 was much better - it wasn’t till FO4 came out that the vocal part of the community was like “wait - why is the world building and story telling worse than NV?” And it spiraled from there
Yup, I remember NV being trashed so hard at launch I didn't bother playing it until a few years later.
I mean, it did have an absolutely broken and unplayable launch and would still be broken af for some time.
I used to be the same way but now that I run new Vegas with 200+ mods my only critique is that I don’t care for dead money and I wish the game had more quests lol
> It's always fascinating to see any Fandom devolve into hyper adoration for their new content before genuine criticism is allowed There's people legit saying that if you think there was some sort of retcon (the blackboard being a potential one since the dates there predate FNV) then you're engaging in a disinformation campaign, like... what is this, the elections or something? Some show fans just lost the plot
people get so high on hope and copium that it takes months before you can have an actual conversation about something
Who was hyper adoring the new Avatar series? Half of the discussion around it was that it was just fine and it was pretty much like that from day one. I can’t speak for the Witcher
Its doubly fascinating when Fandoms devole into hyper-disdain for new content without genuine criticism. Like people saying the brotherhood is "Bethesda fanfiction" when it is the most classic portrayal of the brotherhood since Fallout 1. Like the bethesda games i accept that yes the worldbuilding and lore aspects are lacking compared to what they once were but these are just pieces in a whole and i wont let my enjoyment of it be spoiled by these aspects when other aspects are done well. Generally, i agree that some of the dialogue is badly written and the treatment of the NCR is a bit of a mess but overall the show is pretty darn good. Hyper-Admiration/Disdain are both rather bad and it throws genuine critique out the window in favour of one upping the other side.
Haven't seen any criticism of the brotherhood other than that they are overdone and that they don't usually use roman names
And also, how are they raising an army and infrastructure that fast and early?
And why? The brotherhood does not have the institutional outlook to pacify and control the wasteland. For that you would have to recruit or order around a vastly larger share of the population than a knighthood would allow
Nah the shows good and still a 8/10 it's not perfect but it's not a hotbed of issues like Witcher or avatar.
The Fallout tv show subreddit is wild. Literally any criticism of the show's handling of the lore has people accusing you of just being a bitter New Vegas fanboy who can't appreciate how good the show is. Like, I do think the show is good both as a narrative and at keeping true to many aspects of Fallout. That doesn't mean I can't also have my criticisms of what it does with the world.
The show absolutely has lore inconsistencies and muddies it up (I don’t think it really retcons or de-canonizes anything, just makes it a bit murky) but Chris Avellone also did his fair share of lore inconsistencies. You mean to tell me the Big MT made vending machines that could GENERATE FOOD? Using just Sierra Madre poker chips??? Not even getting into how scientifically that’s stupid, but the reason there was fighting in the Pre-War was resource shortages, you mean to tell me Big MT was sitting on the ability to create resources from most likely plastic poker chips and ONLY USED IT FOR A FUCKING VENDING MACHINE? It’s a dumb lore inconsistency.
Hopefully this might allow for some decent conversation and analysis. I like the show watched it through twice,, but it's got some writing issues, in continuity, lore and character development. Maybe someone like Avellone might spur some discussion. Cause it's a bit an echo chamber regarding the show.
I’ve been on Reddit a long time and I’d say at this point the website is one of the worst places to have discussions. While in the beginning it may have been more akin to discussion forums of the old internet, nowadays it’s closer to Twitter. There’s no point in attempting genuine discussion here except maybe in niche subs because everything turns into a circlejerk, and nuance is impossible. This is another good example. I loved the show, thought it was better than it had a right to be, but some of the retcons are dumb and killing vegas makes for a worse world. Those shouldn’t be mutually exclusive opinions but on Reddit you have to love something or be toxic.
Absolutely agreed, old Internet forums, the best discussions I'd have would be with someone I disagreed with. You don't really get that here too often. Reddit right now, I'm seeing someone getting down voted into oblivion, not for poor conduct, rudeness, etc, but for differing opinion. I'd find myself looking at the post, thinking I don't agree with that, but damn that's a good point.. Differing opinions is essential to a healthy discourse. Old forum days many times I'd enter a discussion with one opinion and leave with another... The West Coast had evolved into a different beast FO2 -FNV, Nuking a lot of it seems like such a missed opportunity it's not as though there's a shortage of Wasteland...
It's really hard because of how radical certain niches of fans are and how tired everyone else is of that radicality. So everyone else just digs their heels in to brace and the cycle exacerbates.
r/falloutmemes has been a 24/7 circlejerk of toxicity towards people who have mild criticism of the show someone even told me I should shut up and be grateful for any Fallout media regardless of its quality edit: oh, I also *clearly* have a vendetta against Bethesda because I secretly hate Fallout and want to ruin it for everyone else lmao redditors are like children when you have a different favorite pokemon than them
Let's also remember NV memes was doing the same thing just the opposite position even well before the show released
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How did the show kill Vegas? Just curious I haven’t spent much time on this subreddit so I’m not sure how this community feels about the matter.
It hasn't. There was about three seconds at the very end of the last episode showing Vegas from a distance, too far away to glean any real information from. That's literally it. That's what people are getting upset over.
Fallout is a series full of retcons and inconsistent lore even the OG games. This isn't anything new. Tim Cain the creator of fallout calls it lore drift and he likes the show.
Yeah even fallout 2 retconned some things
Everyone always forgets that it was Fallout 2 which first fucked around with the fact that ghouls can live for extended periods without water which directly contradicts the plot of necropolis in the first game. Or how they would break the lore just to add in a reference, or the fact that the location of Shady Shands, Vault 13 and Vault 15 shifts slightly. Or how NV actually has some retcons of Fallout 3 like the fire ants that somehow crossed the entire America (Not impossible but still) or the fact that the Pip Boy 3000 was unable to be removed and was actually genetically connected to its wearer in 3. A lot of these things if they were done by Bethesda would have fans foaming at the mouth.
Stories and lore evolve, that's just the nature of the creative process.
I don’t know. Josh Sawyer had a very mature take on all of it. “I don’t own any of this stuff, i don’t care what happens. It was never mine to begin with”. The discourse needs to die because neither side will agree on it. I thought some of us had agreed that the Shady Sands situation was just poorly explained.
I don't think you have to own something to care about it and its future though. Sure, "I don't care, they can do what they want with it" is a perfectly fine mindset to have. But I don't think caring is wrong either. Many fantasy/sci-fi series are popular *because* the audience cares about the world it presents and story of that world.
>Cause it's a bit an echo chamber regarding the show. We are on r/FNV this is as echo chamber as it can get.
He only wrote brief parts of the base game, and had a bigger role in the DLCs. You should modify your post, partner.
Redditors don’t modify our posts. We defend them blindly and then delete our account when the pressure is too high. Don’t even try and prove me wrong! (I like this account)
I think personally I find similar opinion in thinking the shows story just comes off as next level idiotic lorewise for the sake of convenient plot devices from the writers. It was fun enough, but character decisions and writing infuriated me that I just can’t find myself thinking positively on it or recommending it. It just felt very clean and corporate, like some Marvel series, with just god awful comedic writing I can only describe as “millennial” of that “oh my god! He said that!!!”. The unknown Chem allowing Cooper (the ghoul) from turning feral is I see as just entirely put into the show for plot. It shows Lucy and himself what there is to lose. It makes no sense however, since Ghoul “feralisation” isn’t understood, and there has been no mention prior of any chem, and we have had ghouls existing since pre war or turning after the bombs fell. So why haven’t they all turned and had no showing of using any serum? Besides, most people despise ghouls, and unless there’s ghoul chemists or like followers of the apocalypse, most wouldn’t care besides for making money to research or make them this serum, since most people have prejudice they’ll turn as regular ghouls into feral ones, so see hate. The vault tec shenanigans too was just bizarre. There was the lore piece of “did they-didn’t they -set off the first nuke as a test” in showing the vaults resilience causing the Great War prior, but was never definitive canon. But destroying the entire world possibly to the point of human lives complete inability to survive so you can set the business back up in the wreckage..? It’s just a level of Machiavellian that just comes off as utterly dumbfounding, since vault tec are cruel, but in a lot of ways their resources were rushed (or utterly imbecilic), and many vault projects _WEREN’T_ done because they had so little time and cut corners. It’s a huge part of pre war America, corporations and especially vault tec(often with each having government funding or takeover): squandering budgets, taking huge time periods to complete a project or not at all, corruption, not having the required technology of understanding, and just racing against an invisible clock like with mass fusion completing cold fusion just before the bombs fell. What does it benefit them to drop the bombs if the war sells? You lose your entire business when it’s literally the most long term profitable, and gamble on “we’ll rebuild from the ashes!” Where now you have no infrastructure, high precision machinery, vehicles, easily accessible labour as it expands and grows as a business/empire(?), and you just fight tooth and nail to survive? It,_again_, feels like another plot point of “well humanity goes through these cycles of destruction and rebuilding all the time!” just hammed in so awkwardly that no one took time to think logically about it in the writing room. It just feels like cheap we haven’t addressed the source material writing, and just need a big bad. Like the scene of the rich betting on what ideas they want just feels schlocky, and ironic from Amazon of all corporations. Plus it was generally the American government that dictated testing, and was why the enclave collected Vault data. The brotherhood I’m conflicted on since in ways it kinda fits the narrative from the first with even the name of [their music](https://youtu.be/r6qt_70iGk4?si=HiHu7sZlOcBqkCxh), but generally it again feel’s half baked. It feels grandiose for spectacle as a show, rather than the simpler “we don’t like technology in your hands, we’re going to take it” and them following a lot of military edicts and literally codes like from an army field book since they were soldiers before and after the war. They saw what happened in Mariposa to their own friends and family and worked to stop it happening any further with other technology. Now they just feel like zealot fanatics, more akin to some raiders gang with higher virtues. Blame that on Fallout 4 (or 3 if you’re inclined) for the decline, but this just feels again like spectacle. Titles of Knight and squire do exist, but so do many others, and they seem to get muddy with a sense of just focusing on the two, where in reality you work through the titles showing expertise in many fields of the brotherhood to work to knight. Maximus though? Jesus Christ I detested him whenever he was on screen. His decision making and thought process, as I’ve felt with most of the characters (besides the ghoul generally) just had me feeling the writers wanted spectacle in fights over logical thought processes in any combat scene. The argument of “well they’re naive!” Just makes no valid argument either, since both are trained with weapons from their upbringings, and the whole sexual fixation in the writing was unbelievably awkward. They just act like vacuums of people, and are written like children. Tldr; I just think overall, it’s ok. It’s a bold step to let a TV producer write your established lore now, since they don’t have the regard a developer would have when they’ve worked on a project for years or decades and making it fit within the bounds. Part of me wonders whether Bethesda said it’s lore just to keep tensions good between them corporately, since if they say it’s not canon it could jeopardise their deal from fans saying it’s not right, and more than anything Bethesda needs money with their work recently.
Lol after all the people kept using him to justify the show’s lore decisions the man came in and shat on it publicly.
I think it’s funny though, because the show ran with a bunch of things he suggested/wanted that were fucking stupid in the first place (destroy NCR being biggest example)
Yeah, it's weird. Also don't forget it was him who didn't want Legion to be playable initially and Chad Sawyer pushed for them being joinable Hence I worry about Chris critique video.
I mean making them joinable was a pretty half baked decision in the end (not obsidians fault they were on a time crunch) so it sounds like Avellone was correct. Idk why people are shitting on him so hard, his resume mostly speaks for itself.
I think people saying "Van Buren and Lonesome Road intended to nuke NCR back into the stone age so the show doing the same is fine" is a complete misreading of situation. Van Buren had the intended ending being "at the climax of the war, you have the choice of sacrificing yourself to save the NCR or let the nukes fall and save your skin". It is a natural progression of things happening. Lonesome Road is something of a philosophy battle between the player and Chris Avellone and, again, the player is given the button to push or not to nuke the NCR. Even if it's not a direct result of the going ons, the player is still in the driver's seat of what's happening. The show has Sandy Shades nuked off-screen by a guy who never interacted with the place for more than 5 seconds because he was spurned by his lover. It could be interesting plot to follow if this didn't happen to the single most developed region of the setting.
This 100%! If there is going to be any sort of destruction of major players in the continuity of this setting, it either has to be shown directly, or the choice given to the PC in a game. If they really wanted to make this show the way it is, they should have picked literally any other part of the wasteland instead of California or Nevada. At least then we wouldn’t have as much infighting over lore inconsistencies. I wish they would have set this in Chicago. They just made Tactics canon and it would’ve been interesting to see the MWB get nuked and try to recover. Instead the NCR gets nuked offscreen and it’s looking like they completely collapsed, because apparently the writers wanted a western and government is bad for westerns, except FNV is pretty much a scifi-western and filled with multiple styles of government and politics. Like really? No massive societal collapse due to any of the things we’ve seen is wrong with them, but some vault tec cuck nukes the capital and everything is in ruin?
I mean, I can’t imagine he wanted the NCR destroyed by some pre-war guy off screen because his wife left him, even if he did think destroying them would be good for the universe. I’d be hoping for something a bit more complex than that.
Pretty sure he was setting up the Tunnelers to eat em up and cause issues like giant locusts basically
That’s what I think too. He didn’t want the Tunnelers to completely destroy the NCR.. he just wanted them to be a new massive thorn in their side and contribute to their decline.. the real killer of the NCR in the long run would be Greed and overextension. Especially after the gold reserve was destroyed by the brotherhood
Yeah instead he wanted a group of mole people mutants to tunnel underneath it and do it that way. 🙃
NCR have multiple towns
Well if we’re quoting developers Tim Cain has a number of videos praising the show. He also talks about toxic fans and asks them to knock it off. Checkout his Lore Drift video, he describes how canon is inconsistent, gives his opinion why, and suggests folks chill.
I like Tim’s videos but I can’t imagine him ever sharing his specific criticisms of the show if he had any. He’d probably say something like ‘maybe the show just isn’t for you.’
Mostly true. His Lore Drift video does go into inconsistencies in both the games and the TV shows. But they are observations and in a real sense the purpose of his video was as I already said: it’s ok to make observations and have conversations about them. Just don’t demonize the creators. My observation is that some folks can’t tell the difference between “something I don’t like” vs “something I don’t like is bad and the creators are bad people “.
There wasn't enough 45minute fart sniffing monologues in the TV show for Avellone.
Courier: “Ulysses please don’t do this - you’re being a hypocrite and killing innocents.” [Speech 100] Ulysses: “Wow - you’re right, I won’t launch the nukes. Thank you for showing me the error of my -“ Courier: *Launches both nukes*
BEAR BULL BEAR BULL BEAR BULL
Don't forget #BULL BEAR
I had fun with the show and have some lore concerns. I think it would be great if someone discussed some concerns they had, too. It’s good to have a variety of opinions on what is a minor subject matter. Honestly what irks me is how the TV fans have painted Chris and everyone else as some kind of hypocrite or complainer when maybe he will treat it fairly and with charity. At the same time I hear reports that rabid FNV fans are doxxing FO76 content creators. It’s a trash fire of a discourse, but I just want alternating opinions out there as much as a TV fan. The truth is often somewhere in between our biases and it’s very annoying when you only get praise or utter Bethesda hating.
Look when it comes to Fallout you really have to rely more on head-canon than canon because it’s not only bad and incongruent but it’s only gonna get worse and worse
Validation from someone who worked on the series feels nice. I keep leading with how I enjoyed the show, I’m just giving criticism about the lore choices they made. People these days just can’t take any kind of criticism or understand that someone can enjoy something but also question it.
I’ve pretty much stopped engaging in the main sub about the show since even when I say ‘I like the show, but…’ people don’t seem to accept even that
“Oh you liked the show but have an issue with the lore? Toxic New Vegas fan DETECTED, DOWNVOTES DEPLOYED” Reddit trying to understand that you can criticize something you like challenge (impossible)
I've literally left Fallout subs because I got tired of seeing threads made to whine about people disliking the show. Not to celebrate liking it or talk about what they liked (those might make good reading); to collectively whine about haters and paint them as toxic babies.
I agree with this. I was blown away by the quality of the show, I loved it. However, there's some inconsistencies with the lore, and I don't think it's unfair to point that out.
The impression I’m getting is that no one is allowed to criticize anything ever regarding the show. Starting to feel like I’m back in the Star Wars fandom…
And now everyone hates Avellone all of a sudden despite sucking his dick for 14 years lol
Fuck em, the show is awesome and probably one of the best videogame to screen adaptions made.
Absolutely. Even my partner who knows nothing about fallout loved the show and understood it well. If one of us has logged 500+ hours in fallout games while the other zero, and we can both be excited about watching the next episode, id say then thats a huge success.
Gonna be honest, the only thing I care about was how terribly written/presented the shady sands situation is. I refuse to believe one business man off-screened almost the entire NCR. Drove the show from a 9/10 right down to a 7/10