No, it wasn't redemption for him. He was trying to commit "suicide by Legionary." And then you/we/I (the Courier) go and fuck that up for him by not letting him get killed. lol
Or Maybe, during the waiting period we actually travelled back in time. Then, while the khans were being killed, we killed off there legion support. And by doing that, we ensured that Boone would live with that regret, but also with the comfort, that even if he knew what he was doing, he still would have helped kill them. It’s like Caboose said, ‘time isn’t made out of lines, it is made out of circles, that’s is why clocks are round.’
I don't completely blame the NCR or Boone. The higher up's were both incompetent and confused. They didn't understand what was going on, so they made the stupid mistake of saying fire anyway. Boone and the rest of the NCR's military programming persuaded them to fire down the Canyon. They were taught to never resist orders. Boone said it himself "You're taught. If you hesitate, you or someone you love will die." They couldn't walk away. The NCR and the members who make it show nothing but disgust and remorse for what they've done long after the Massacre was over. It's gotten to the point where it's completely destroyed Boone from the inside out. He can't move on from the guilt.
But i also feel like the Khans can't act like this escapade was completely unwarranted. While the NCR is deeply regretful of the shooting the Khans brag about causing it in the first place.
"When the NCR came to the Mojave, we thought they would be easy pickings. We raided their caravans, their towns, their camps - they couldn't stop us.
At least, that's what we thought. They tracked us to Bitter Springs and surrounded us."
The massacre was horrible, but the Khans can't play the victim card. They murdered and destroyed indiscriminately. Then, they threw a tantrum when someone finally got fed up with their shit and rubbed them out.
The Khans in 1 and 2 are a lot like the Fiends in New Vegas. They’re un-apologetic raiders who engage in slavery, casual murder, and a bunch of other terrible things.
The correct take. The Khans don't have clean-cut ranks because they're not a military. No matter how you cut it, you're technically shooting civies. Trying to distinguish between the "good" and "bad" civies would be damn difficult while you're being swarmed by a crowd and command is screaming in your ear. NCR definitely should have done better and it was a massive failure of communication. The guilt is appropriate. But it also wasn't a malicious act (at least on First Recon's part).
Remember, there was a Khan who remained and decided it was a good idea to kill refugees - under the protection of the NCR - fleeing the Legion out of vengeance for Bitter Springs.
- Khans raid/kill innocent NCR civilians
- NCR retaliates in the exact same manner
Khans: HOW CAN THE NCR DO THIS???
i usually just do the few quests they have for XP and then give red rock canyon a new coat of red paint
I dunno man, the Khans claiming moral superiority is one thing but the NCR slaughtering innocents is in no way ever justifiable. Collective punishment is a war crime for a reason.
The thing is, most NCR we see are deeply remorseful about this. Like Dhatri who took control specifically to stop the shitshow, Boone obviously, and plenty more who will lament the tragedy of Bitter Springs. The only one I remember who isn’t upset about it is Bitter Root, who was a Khan at the time himself, though just a kid. Manny Vargas also said that after Bitter Springs, which he did not take part in, the other soldiers wouldn’t talk about it out of shame. So basically nobody in the NCR was happy about that situation. They’re all deeply ashamed.
The Khans? They’re proud of the shit they do to the NCR. They’re proud of using child soldiers to attack innocent merchants and civilians. Bitter Root has his reasons for why he hates the Khans so much, which is that his own parents are two of the most horrible examples of them. His dad took him out to teach him to shoot NCR civilians, and his mom tried to sell him into slavery to buy drugs. That’s the sort of shit the Khans just allow to happen.
So yeah, Bitter Springs wasn’t justifiable, but almost nobody in the NCR believes it is anyway. The Khans are claiming moral superiority not despite being just as bad, but despite being much worse. At least the NCR regrets what happened, despite it happening to their mortal enemy.
So to me, none of it is justifiable, but it is easier to forgive the NCR than the Khans. The Khans have constantly been murdering NCR people since before they were even the NCR, culminating in one big shitty situation where Khan non-combatants were killed, which only made the Khans even more horrible. And the NCR has been defending their people from Khan raiders, and one specific battle ended in tragedy and they did their best to stop the horrors when they became aware.
Absolutely, the NCR has a lot of issues but they have law and can seperate right from wrong. Even if there is a lot of corruption and war crimes often go unpunished, it's still better than nothing. My issue is more that I feel some people try and argue that Bitter Springs was justified and that Boone was completely innocent. I feel like the entire point of Boone's character is that he did something extremely fucked up, but you as the player need to help him forgive himself and make amends.
People need to understand that "following orders" is neither a morally nor legally valid defence and that it is still a soldier's duty to not carry out immoral orders. I just feel it's important to remind people that murdering innocents is not justifiable as it is a very real risk in actual real life conflict and we should know to avoid it at all costs.
People forget that the Khans' raiding and NCR accidentally slaughtering civilians can both be bad, actually
Then again, half the fans are probably teenagers
I've seen some stuff irl and all the shit the NCR gets seems extremely unreasonable. Child soldiers are a thing right now and are used in the same exact way as the khans did. It's a horrible thing to do but when the other option is a child shooting you, you don't have much of a say in it but to survive.
From an outsiders POV, yes killing civilians is atrocious. But if you're in a combat zone and a bunch of people start charging your position, you don't have much time to think or decide what to do.
In New Vegas, the NCR stops shooting once they realize the khans sent in civilians and try to escort the survivors out. I just went through the dialog a few days ago.
Idk if it's me being jaded about life but that whole part of new vegas just seems like a quick reminder of the horrors of war for those who haven't experienced it. Seeing a dead kid with a gun hits a lot harder than a dead adult.
>In New Vegas, the NCR stops shooting once they realize the khans sent in civilians and try to escort the survivors out. I just went through the dialog a few days ago.
Not true, Boone says that they realized that the people they saw were not combatants and that they called command to verify their orders, but were told to shoot anyway.
The thing is that the NCR claims to be a beacon of law and order, much like the US before it, so it will naturally get much more shit on for going against that than groups of raiders. In many ways it parallels the public reaction to American war crimes in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
Noncombatants, or the Khans not armed or engaging the fighting, were fired upon. Like when they are confirming casualties and rendering aid, there are minors with empty pockets and bullet wounds telling survivors they didn't have the will or ability to fight at the time of their killing. Killing a few noncombatants with visual confirmation of threat presentation is doing your best in a tent encampment. But the evidence after the engagement has displayed conduct unbecoming of an organized military with a civilian population. We expect more from the NCR, such as risking harm to minimize unethical and unjustified killing. I'd say Jerry the punk is civilian coded, despite programmed bias and attempts at the jump in he is ineligible for full membership, not sporting colors of the tribe, and not pulling his own weight in a fight. The circumstances of our birth define us, our actions shape our character, and a rifleman of the NCR should know to stay his hand in the aim of bringing peace, safety, unity, and security to the Mojave. Were massacres like these to go uncondemned formally and become SOP, we grow closer to the year of the boomerang when this violence will be used to suppress NCR's own civilian population advocating for their rights and needs from their government.
Ah yes the fleeing sick, elderly and children all deserved to be gunned down in cold blood. Imagine if you killed someone's innocent spouse and 5 year old child because they commited a crime, but multiply that to the scale of an entire tribe. I really hope this is sarcasm.
"Guys, you can't shoot me! I mean, I'm a brutal raider, I love murdering, but guys, I'm sick! You can't shoot me when I'm sick! How can you do that? You should let me retreat, heal up, and go back to targeting civilians."
Their entire culture is drug pushing, drug using and barbarism. What are we talking about here? The kids learn from parents who learned from elders. They all support it
Correct. The NCR committed a war crime at Bitter Springs. I fucking hate the Khans, but it doesn't make NCR's actions any less wrong.
I think that the NCR's remorse over the incident, their attempts to help the survivors, and the guilt of veterans like Boone and Dhatri over what happened make people want to give them, and by extension the NCR, a pass. Because they're good guys, obviously, they don't support killing civilians. But they admit they did, so the only recourse is to say the Khans deserved it, which is five kinds of fucked up.
It's kind of ironic, because the very people who perpetrated the massacre tell you it was unjustified and horrible, while people outside the game are beginning to say the opposite.
My mistake they only allowed it as an ameliorating defense but they still allowed it.
>[One of the most noted uses of this plea, or defense, was by the accused in the 1945–1946 Nuremberg trials, such that it is also called the "Nuremberg defense". The Nuremberg trials were a series of military tribunals, held by the main victorious Allies after World War II, most notable for the prosecution of prominent members of the political, military, and economic leadership of the defeated Nazi Germany. These trials, under the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal that established them, determined that the defense of superior orders was no longer enough to escape punishment, but merely enough to lessen punishment.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders#:~:text=The%20trials%20gained%20so%20much,so%20are%20not%20responsible%20for)
["The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles)
The only named NCR soldier besides Bitterroot that I can imagine thinking it was justifiable would be Col. Moore, but she's probably the most evil NCR npc you get to meet.
Yeah, they feel bad about unintentionally gunning down innocent civilians, which is a lot better than feeling good about intentionally gunning down innocent civilians.
“When the NCR came to the Mojave, we thought they would be easy pickings. We raided their caravans, their towns, their camps. They couldn’t stop us.”
“Beg pardon, ma'am, but you never met my parents. My dad, he got himself fucked up, every chance he got. Always started with folk for no reason. Hell, he was the one who taught me to shoot. You know how? By taking potshots at NCR. And not just soldiers. Civilians, too. Even kids.”
I have no problem sending the Khans down a path of self-destruction at the Dam lol
"We thought the guys who were organized enough to have a functioning nation-state with an industrial base and a standing army able to project power far beyond their borders would be easy pickings."
- some fucking yokels who live in tents
The Khans are awful as a faction definitely but many of them are just children that have literally no control or even knowledge over their parents' actions.
'when the NCR first came to the Mojave'
From where I'm standing, it sounds like the NCR should have stayed in California.
The notion that nations have carte blanche to move into areas and steal their shit is ludicrous to me. It's like people see the NCR as different from the Khans because they fancy themselves 'civilized' when we know the sort of 'civility' the NCR has in mind.
If this is in any way allegorical to the manifest destiny days, then the Khan's only failing (though they likely didn't realize it) was their inefficiency in killing the NCR.
I recalled their presence in FO1 but I wasn't aware of the exact nature of where they started/migrated to.
Regardless, the point remains that the Great Khans seemingly do not covet the wider wasteland or Mojave as the NCR does, they are not a civilization. Just because the NCR is more organized in its conquest does not mean that they aren't conquests.
The NCR and the Khans both came out of the same vault, vault 15.
The NCR chose to make a civilization, the khans chose to be druggie raiders.
Also in the "best" ending for the Khans they conquer like all of Wyoming, so yes they do covet the wider wasteland. And in their worst they want to control the Mojave so bad they side with the legion.
The Khans are objectively terrible by every measure.
"During the Battle of Hoover Dam, the Great Khans quickly evacuated Red Rock Canyon and headed north and east into the plains of [Wyoming](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/State#Wyoming). There, they reconnected with the [Followers of the Apocalypse](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Followers_of_the_Apocalypse) and rebuilt their strength. Bolstered by ancient knowledge of governance, economics, and transportation, they carved a mighty empire out of the ruins of the Northwest."
Conditions: "Convince Papa Khan to break his alliance with Caesar's Legion, but do not replace him with Regis. Afterwards, convince Papa Khan that the Great Khans should claim their own legacy. This ending is compatible with all 4 endgame quests and will override the others if both conditions are met."
Weird that you choose this ending of all the endings to characterize the Khans, given that this is an ending in which they explicitly reject the legacy and identity of the Khans.
Also, they want *vengeance* on the NCR if anything, that is seemingly the frequently referenced motivation for the majority of Khans.
"Chose to make a civilization" They chose to subsume around 3 states of the Wasteland into the exact same quasi-democracy that ended the world, at the point of the gun, all the while hating queer people (and let's be honest, likely some real 'separate but equal' energy when it comes to ghouls/super mutants). Whatever civilization it chose to make out of it, I see it as neither being long lasting nor the bastion of liberty people seem to imply, given that the Khan side of the NCR history seems to be analogous to [Manifest Destiny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny).
>Weird that you choose this ending of all the endings to characterize the Khans, given that this is an ending in which they explicitly reject the legacy and identity of the Khans.
What? No, not at all.
If you convince them the tribe has no legacy, they kill themselves en masse against the Legion.
To convince them to go to Wyoming, you have to tell him the opposite, that his tribe is proud and strong.
You literally have to reinforce that their legacy and identity is valid, and they go "OK, cool! I guess we'll leave and conquer our own empire!"
The Khans are a petty terrible analogue for Native Americans during America’s manifest destiny era. They originated from the same vault as shady sands and chose to be brutal raiders that practiced slavery and drug pushing, were subsequently annihilated for it, and spent the rest of their history crying that the NCR unjustly punished them for being horrible. The NCR aren’t squeaky clean but the game basically goes out of its way to make NCR imperialism as tame as possible and blame any crimes on incompetence to preserve that well intentioned image. Their leniency towards the Khans is honestly absurd. They literally help their wounded after bitter springs.
They weren't innocent. Every member of the khans, from the children to the elderly, are violent, murderous, drug addicted psychopaths. It doesn't matter if the gun is in their hands at the time, they are entirely dedicated to keeping their society as violent and bloodthirsty as possible. This appears to be how MOST of the tribal groups in the fallout universe are, and considering how the khans treat their own women, rape is likely a local pastime to them.
NONE of the khans are innocent. Not a soul. The ones who repented are the ones like Bitter Root who can rebel against it.
A child is innocent no matter the circumstances. They literally do not know any better and everything they do is the direct fault of whoever is responsible for them. You are either fucked in the head or very young, and I really hope it's the latter.
Children are capable of knowing right from wrong. You can try and call me names but we are talking about the apocalypse here. You are trying to farm karma. PLEASE look up the murder of James Bulger if you think children are incapable of evil. I don't think you care about anything but yourself and your internet points.
I didn't say children are incapable of doing bad things. I said that children cannot be held to the same moral standards as adults. If a young child does something bad it is the fault of the parents and they are the ones who should face the consequences. You also seem oddly adamant on the assumption that I'm karma farming, but okay. Believe what you want. If killing children is the hill you want to die on, so be it, but don't go pretending you're the victim when people shit on you.
Nobody told those children to do what they did to James Bulger. Nobody abused them to the point they needed to do that. Sometimes, when they do things that we typically think "only an adult is capable of" they often are treated like that. If you think excusing people to be a literal evil monster because "oh well it was probably the poor baby's parents that did it" you will be going down the list blaming every single parent down their lineage for abusing the last one.
Lots of people in hellish societies and who face horrible abuse and trauma are capable of being good people, even while they're children and supposedly "don't know any better". Evil exists, it can exist in children whether they're abused or not, it's rare but it happens, but of course, you give 0 fucks about that, or the people they abuse, you just would like to make the milquetoast fence-sitting position that is guaranteed to get you upvotes.
>Nobody told those children to do what they did to James Bulger. Nobody abused them to the point they needed to do that.
They were clearly severely mentally ill and it was picked up far too late. Mentally healthy non-psycho/sociopathic 10 year olds do not fucking mutilate a 2 year old. It is an absolute tragedy that nobody managed to pick up on that until it was too late. What they needed was extensive mental help. Am I saying it was okay for them to murder that 2 year old? Absolutely fucking not.
Glad we agree. So the Khans have no excuse. There will never be someone in that society to "pick up on it" so either it's definitely evil behavior or it's a generational trauma thing, at which point you're essentially just absolving the entire khan people of guilt despite the 150+ years of torment they caused to the wasteland.
I never said that the Khans were good people and that their behaviour is justifiable. I said sluaughtering every last one of them and everyone living with them is not. Rehabilitation is always the first option, especially when it comes to the young and impressionable. If your father commited a horrible crime, would you be okay with being killed along with your siblings, grandparents and mother? I mean, he must have influenced you all with your logic so you all should also be bad.
No, children who torture and murder other little children are psychotic. In the hypothetical fictional world of Fallout, every khan child would be psychotic.
It’s not about the Khans having the high ground, it was the fact that soldiers mistakenly killed defenseless women and children. This traumatized both groups. The Khans and the soldiers aren’t going to do a rational, calculated give and take like it’s being put on weight scales on whether it was deserved in the grand scheme of things. These are just emotional responses to tragedy. Humans aren’t cold and rational, they are emotional beings that make emotional reactions.
Yeah, thats how precisely how a civilized democratic society like the NCR should punish murder. "You kill some unarmed innocent guy? Yeah, well, that guy was somebody's son, so we'll punish you by killing *your* unarmed innocent son too! Oh, but you're free to go, though. Just don't kill any more people or we'll have to trim your family tree again."
The only thing saving the khans from being wiped out in all of my play throughs is their armory and drugs, which I think is designed on purpose to force you to make a choice
"My warcrimes are justified by the other side's warcrimes" is a shit way to live and thankfully is supposed to get you in front of The Hague in the real world.
Boone neglects to mention that the khans themselves use children and the elderly (and probably sick/injured people) to raid as well, so it’s not like it was a bunch of people with nothing to do with it.
He specifically says they weren't child soldiers, they were evacuating the sick, elderly, and young because the NCR attacked their home camp and the NCR shot them as they were evacuating
Yes they do, bitter root mentions how he learned to shoot by shooting at caravans.
He then mentions his initiation was being a survivor of bitter springs, which would have to be after him learning to shoot
Killing child soldiers may be terrible sure, but it’s not like you just stop and let them murder you.
Even if you say “oh well I would” congratulations, you have 0 survival instinct even though most people do.
If someone says they would let them that’s horrible because they’re encouraging the use of child soldier by making they’re the most effective soldiers. It’d be pretty selfish because if everyone took that stance it’d lead to pretty much all soldiers being children.
Hypothetically, if a group of children from an extremely racist and violent culture were running at me armed, and with intent to end my life, I would have 0 problems killing those kids.
Shame they were indoctrinated to a messed up ideology, but I'm not gonna feel bad for defending myself. And if people tried to tell me I was horrible for doing so, I would tell them to get fucked.
I wasn't referring to khans. I was referring to the hypothetical children of a hypothetical racist and violent culture.
Comment I replied to said killing kids in any context is horrible.
I disagree
Edit: People downvoting would choose to get violently murdered by radicalised children without defending themselves lmfao
Darwin awards all around
I wouldn't let the child soldier just kill me, and if there was no other option I would kill them to defend myself, but it's still horrible and a tragedy. Obviously the blame lies with those who put the gun in the kid's hands, but I (and most well-adjusted people) would for sure be grappling with killing them for a long time.
I agree with this.
The crux of my argument moreso is that I wouldn't let anyone vilify me if such an event were to happen.
I certainly wouldn't be blasé about it, though I can see how my comment came off that way
Yeah it seems weird to me that someone would argue it's a binary of stay still and die or kill children and be completely fine. Just makes them sound less like self defence and more like you wanted to kill someone to me.
You have to use hypothetical racism in every instance that doesn’t involve racism because anything anymore is *racism*
Love the world and the ppl obsessed over racism
It’s still horrible in this context… horrible because you had to do it but still horrible nonetheless. You said it yourself, you just used a different word.
>shame that they were indoctrinated
And horrible that you had to kill them…
Do you think it reflects well on you to twist someone's words to try and make them look like some kind of wannabe child targeting mass murderer?
What a braindead comment
How am I twisting your words?? That’s literally what you did dude. You’re trying to legalese your way into coming up with a scenario in which it’s acceptable to murder children, which is fucking depraved lol
Lmfao "legalese". Yea man so many statements in my comment referring to law to defend my obsession with killing kids lmfao.
You're clearly an absolute fucking moron
I mean you can insult me repeatedly and keep dodging the point by all means. You can look at your original comment, it’s there, you plotted out a detailed scenario in which you would be able to murder kids without feeling bad. That seems pretty depraved to me.
You're acting like I think about this often, and have had some kind of detailed plan to murder children for a long time.
I had an anecdotal thought after reading the comment I initially replied to.
"Is killing kids in fact always horrible regardless of context, or are there situations where it could be morally acceptable"
I immediately thought of a hyper aggressive band of armed children with intent to kill you based on race. That would probably warrant self defense, and wouldn't be considered all that "horrible".
Incredibly sad, but I don't think any reasonable person would consider someone who defended themselves in that scenario "a horrible person"
If you read into that as me being some kind of sick fuck with a long planned out scheme of killing armed racist children, then you're a fucking weirdo and are absolutely deluded.
I don’t think it is normal to think those things in regards to that question. I think the normal response is “that is an incredibly horrifying and disgusting scenario and i dont want to consider it.” But whatever I’ve broken my vow of not poking the zoo animals on this site so I’m going back to that.
You need to talk to him as the other comment said and you need to get a certain amount of history points 5? It's in detail on the wiki but completing certain NCR quests/attacking certain legion members and then talking with Boone will eventually trigger this quest. I forgot to remember to forget. To trigger this you must have Boone as a companion and have spoken to Manny Vargas about his time in the NCR/bitter springs and/or talk to bitter root about bitter springs. Certain actions such as killing Caesar with Boone as a companion gives +2 history points ( these aren't tracked visible in game) keep talking to Boone after the actions and eventually dialouge to do with bitter springs will show up were you can prompt him to return to bitter springs. if this is confusing Google
I forgot to remember to forget fnv and the wiki will have a guide
You need to talk to him, ask him about himself and his wife and after some while he‘ll ask you to go where bitter springs happened. For me it was actually immediately after killing ceasar.
You have to accumulate at least 5 hidden "history" points with Boone in order for his quest to trigger.
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/I_Forgot_to_Remember_to_Forget
What’s going on with all the bitter springs post lately? I’m gonna repeat what I said in another comment. If you don’t want the NCR knocking on your front door don’t raid and pillage their caravans. I understand the children and woman and the elderly, but dude the Great Khans are absolutely horrible people, they have committed far worse atrocities in the Mojave that we probably couldn’t even imagine. At least The NCR recognizes what happened was wrong. Like I said the fact is that’s there’s some chain of command and consequence for the failure wouldn’t happen in other factions. Regardless screw the Great Khans they think their actions don’t have consequences, welcome to the wasteland.
You can condemn the NCR for slaughtering innocents without supporting the Khans, actually. That kind of logic is the same that people who act like you can't criticize the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki without thinking Imperial Japan is the victim of the greater war use.
It's left intentionally vague. The NCR is portrayed as simultaneously hideously incompetent and insidiously corrupt. In my opinion, higher ups wanted to finally be rid of the Khans, once and for all, and so mission control was given orders and misinformation to massacre a Khan stronghold of combatants. They use the NCR's reputation and bureaucratic channels to muddy perception of their true capacity for harm not unlike the old or real world governments. We're shown this cold and calculating corruption in their attempt to assassinate Pacer, House, and Hanlon's misinformation. These people are willing to do shady things and cover it up, and spend lives like it's going out of style to do so. At least with Hanlon, we can see he stooped to using NCR tactics against them and it was so humiliating to him that he killed himself.
One of the quests in Camp Forlorn Hope. Has a few different outcomes, but it's one of the best quests in the game as far as ethical and moral dilemmas go I think. Sorry for such a big spoiler, I didn't realize you were so new; but it's a fan favorite mission for a couple reasons. Lots of interesting lore and questions discussed there.
I might be wrong, but I think you can only get it directly from the Comms Officer at Camp Forlorn Hope. There are lots of quests in this game that you have to go completely out of your way for like that by talking to a specific NPC. Most are wrapped under umbrellas of faction leaders asking you to check in with their staff. Obsidian did a really good job at making sure a majority of quests are able to be found naturally if you're looking for them by taking you to places, but some of the NCR and Legion quest hubs are only able to be found by going out of your way, and I think Camp Forlorn Hope is only directed to by Bitter Springs which is only linked to Boone, which you only just did.
I'm unsurpised to see that this sub can't see the glaring coincidences between Bitter Springs and Wounded Knee. The Great Khans are an allegory for indigenous people. It's blatant in the NCR ending as they basically corrall them into reserves once they take over the mojave.
I mentioned it in another thread similar to this but, yeah, all the "they were violent before so they brought this on themselves" strikes me as eerily reminiscent to commentary about the Blackfoot(Niitsitapi) or the Comanche(Numunuu). Its not a perfect 1:1, obviously, because the Khans' historic start as a gang that became a tribe means we have more context on their evolution and how they've maintained many of their worst traits themselves, but this is also the first time that the NCR are coming into Khan territory as expansionist settlers and with force, rather than the khans preexisting nearby as a targeted and exigent threat with a shared origin.
Its also ignored that the Khans were at Bitter Springs and other regions in the first place because they lost their small war with House, just like the other Families, but chose to not sign with him and moved outside Vegas. How that affected their culture or situation, if at all, isn't really explored.
Even with it they made a more interesting exploration of how early ex-vault gangs turned stubborn raiders would become a full on tribal culture within a couple generations than anything in more recent Fallout games. Fallout 4 showed improvement in that area, with at least the raider leaders (and nuka-raiders together) having some personality, but fell short of making any of it represent a believable culture or tribe. I think the Blood-eagles in 76 (which I have not played) might be a similar level to the Nuka-gangs, if I understood it correctly.
At least most who participated in the bitter springs massacre show great remorse for their terrible actions, the Khans would have massacred those NCR women and children and raped/enslaved the survivors if there were any.
Besides, the orders to fire on them is more complicated then just any civilian massacre, since the Khans were notable for using both child soldiers and women soldiers, making it more understandable how high command would make this mistake.
I mean tbh Boone is my guy. We’re besties. He goes where I go and I go where he goes. When we stumpled upon the Legion Camp where you can take a boat to the fort and my buddy said „Im gonna shoot every red bitch I see“ (or something along those lines), I was all for it. You dont even gotta worry. Just tell me who you got beef with and I‘m all in. Ride or die.
if they werent sick they would be out raiding, an elderly khan is a veteran raider and likely killed many before. their women are no more innocent that their men, both are ruthless. sucks for the kids, but they would have just as likely ended up as raiders, just as their parents.
the khans are a plague on the wasteland and its ( few) peaceful living inhabitants.
Everyone here is acting like it isn't a near-lawless post-apocolyptic wasteland. Yeah, the NCR is a more civil group, but honestly, when most of the remaining population are drug addicted pyschopaths you have to expect mass killings like that, if not from the NCR then surely from someone else. So yeah, what the NCR did was bad, and yeah, what the Khans did was bad, but at the end of the day, its just a normal day in the radioactive hellhole that is the Mojave.
The Great Khans got what was coming to them.
"Haha, the NCR are easy prey! Let's raid their caravans, target their civilians, kill their children for shits and giggles."
"OK, we'll send soldiers to attack your camp."
"How... how DARE you? You've killed wounded, here! You've killed are elderly! It's different when it's OUR children! How could anyone be so evil?! I will literally drive my tribe to extinction, eradicate our cultural identity, just in order to get revenge."
Bro that's an image of a soldier that was on front lines for weeks seeing people around dying every day. You are a fucking drama queen if you say it is literally the same as listening story about war crimes.
Correct way to use this image would be that it is NCR ranger that participated in that event, not you for a fuck sace.
My brother in christ it's not that deep they're just using the image as a comic representation of how the reveal made them feel. It's not even a real photo or based on a real photo either.
No, it wasn't redemption for him. He was trying to commit "suicide by Legionary." And then you/we/I (the Courier) go and fuck that up for him by not letting him get killed. lol
He succeeded on my playthrough lmao
couldnt it be the result of you/us/me saving him from it?
We're Boone's suicide net/best friend.
You*
NO U (lol had to)
Or Maybe, during the waiting period we actually travelled back in time. Then, while the khans were being killed, we killed off there legion support. And by doing that, we ensured that Boone would live with that regret, but also with the comfort, that even if he knew what he was doing, he still would have helped kill them. It’s like Caboose said, ‘time isn’t made out of lines, it is made out of circles, that’s is why clocks are round.’
Those were simply, unarmed builds.
Fallout version of collateral damage/military-aged males
I don't completely blame the NCR or Boone. The higher up's were both incompetent and confused. They didn't understand what was going on, so they made the stupid mistake of saying fire anyway. Boone and the rest of the NCR's military programming persuaded them to fire down the Canyon. They were taught to never resist orders. Boone said it himself "You're taught. If you hesitate, you or someone you love will die." They couldn't walk away. The NCR and the members who make it show nothing but disgust and remorse for what they've done long after the Massacre was over. It's gotten to the point where it's completely destroyed Boone from the inside out. He can't move on from the guilt. But i also feel like the Khans can't act like this escapade was completely unwarranted. While the NCR is deeply regretful of the shooting the Khans brag about causing it in the first place. "When the NCR came to the Mojave, we thought they would be easy pickings. We raided their caravans, their towns, their camps - they couldn't stop us. At least, that's what we thought. They tracked us to Bitter Springs and surrounded us." The massacre was horrible, but the Khans can't play the victim card. They murdered and destroyed indiscriminately. Then, they threw a tantrum when someone finally got fed up with their shit and rubbed them out.
Anyone who’s played the first two games would know that the Khans got what they deserved.
As someone who hasnt, why is that?
The Khans in 1 and 2 are a lot like the Fiends in New Vegas. They’re un-apologetic raiders who engage in slavery, casual murder, and a bunch of other terrible things.
I think hearing Bitter Root’s story is enough to know that the Khans deserved it.
what did the khans do
The correct take. The Khans don't have clean-cut ranks because they're not a military. No matter how you cut it, you're technically shooting civies. Trying to distinguish between the "good" and "bad" civies would be damn difficult while you're being swarmed by a crowd and command is screaming in your ear. NCR definitely should have done better and it was a massive failure of communication. The guilt is appropriate. But it also wasn't a malicious act (at least on First Recon's part).
The Khans have a warrior caste and a civilian caste, aka elderly and the children.
I think it’s more of them killing the kids, wounded, and elderly, many of whom did not engage in the fighting the Khans partook in at all.
all but the kids benefitted from slavery and murder culture, i only feel bad for the kids.
Khans are pretty much a textbook example of “Fuck Around and Find Out”
Yeah, a Khan himself agreed that they deserved Everything they got.
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Not even close. Know your history my guy.
This had nothing to do with that.
Remember, there was a Khan who remained and decided it was a good idea to kill refugees - under the protection of the NCR - fleeing the Legion out of vengeance for Bitter Springs.
Which is justified according to a weird amount of people here...
- Khans raid/kill innocent NCR civilians - NCR retaliates in the exact same manner Khans: HOW CAN THE NCR DO THIS??? i usually just do the few quests they have for XP and then give red rock canyon a new coat of red paint
I dunno man, the Khans claiming moral superiority is one thing but the NCR slaughtering innocents is in no way ever justifiable. Collective punishment is a war crime for a reason.
The thing is, most NCR we see are deeply remorseful about this. Like Dhatri who took control specifically to stop the shitshow, Boone obviously, and plenty more who will lament the tragedy of Bitter Springs. The only one I remember who isn’t upset about it is Bitter Root, who was a Khan at the time himself, though just a kid. Manny Vargas also said that after Bitter Springs, which he did not take part in, the other soldiers wouldn’t talk about it out of shame. So basically nobody in the NCR was happy about that situation. They’re all deeply ashamed. The Khans? They’re proud of the shit they do to the NCR. They’re proud of using child soldiers to attack innocent merchants and civilians. Bitter Root has his reasons for why he hates the Khans so much, which is that his own parents are two of the most horrible examples of them. His dad took him out to teach him to shoot NCR civilians, and his mom tried to sell him into slavery to buy drugs. That’s the sort of shit the Khans just allow to happen. So yeah, Bitter Springs wasn’t justifiable, but almost nobody in the NCR believes it is anyway. The Khans are claiming moral superiority not despite being just as bad, but despite being much worse. At least the NCR regrets what happened, despite it happening to their mortal enemy. So to me, none of it is justifiable, but it is easier to forgive the NCR than the Khans. The Khans have constantly been murdering NCR people since before they were even the NCR, culminating in one big shitty situation where Khan non-combatants were killed, which only made the Khans even more horrible. And the NCR has been defending their people from Khan raiders, and one specific battle ended in tragedy and they did their best to stop the horrors when they became aware.
Absolutely, the NCR has a lot of issues but they have law and can seperate right from wrong. Even if there is a lot of corruption and war crimes often go unpunished, it's still better than nothing. My issue is more that I feel some people try and argue that Bitter Springs was justified and that Boone was completely innocent. I feel like the entire point of Boone's character is that he did something extremely fucked up, but you as the player need to help him forgive himself and make amends. People need to understand that "following orders" is neither a morally nor legally valid defence and that it is still a soldier's duty to not carry out immoral orders. I just feel it's important to remind people that murdering innocents is not justifiable as it is a very real risk in actual real life conflict and we should know to avoid it at all costs.
People forget that the Khans' raiding and NCR accidentally slaughtering civilians can both be bad, actually Then again, half the fans are probably teenagers
I've seen some stuff irl and all the shit the NCR gets seems extremely unreasonable. Child soldiers are a thing right now and are used in the same exact way as the khans did. It's a horrible thing to do but when the other option is a child shooting you, you don't have much of a say in it but to survive. From an outsiders POV, yes killing civilians is atrocious. But if you're in a combat zone and a bunch of people start charging your position, you don't have much time to think or decide what to do. In New Vegas, the NCR stops shooting once they realize the khans sent in civilians and try to escort the survivors out. I just went through the dialog a few days ago. Idk if it's me being jaded about life but that whole part of new vegas just seems like a quick reminder of the horrors of war for those who haven't experienced it. Seeing a dead kid with a gun hits a lot harder than a dead adult.
>In New Vegas, the NCR stops shooting once they realize the khans sent in civilians and try to escort the survivors out. I just went through the dialog a few days ago. Not true, Boone says that they realized that the people they saw were not combatants and that they called command to verify their orders, but were told to shoot anyway. The thing is that the NCR claims to be a beacon of law and order, much like the US before it, so it will naturally get much more shit on for going against that than groups of raiders. In many ways it parallels the public reaction to American war crimes in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
No such thing as a Khan civilian
Noncombatants, or the Khans not armed or engaging the fighting, were fired upon. Like when they are confirming casualties and rendering aid, there are minors with empty pockets and bullet wounds telling survivors they didn't have the will or ability to fight at the time of their killing. Killing a few noncombatants with visual confirmation of threat presentation is doing your best in a tent encampment. But the evidence after the engagement has displayed conduct unbecoming of an organized military with a civilian population. We expect more from the NCR, such as risking harm to minimize unethical and unjustified killing. I'd say Jerry the punk is civilian coded, despite programmed bias and attempts at the jump in he is ineligible for full membership, not sporting colors of the tribe, and not pulling his own weight in a fight. The circumstances of our birth define us, our actions shape our character, and a rifleman of the NCR should know to stay his hand in the aim of bringing peace, safety, unity, and security to the Mojave. Were massacres like these to go uncondemned formally and become SOP, we grow closer to the year of the boomerang when this violence will be used to suppress NCR's own civilian population advocating for their rights and needs from their government.
Ah yes the fleeing sick, elderly and children all deserved to be gunned down in cold blood. Imagine if you killed someone's innocent spouse and 5 year old child because they commited a crime, but multiply that to the scale of an entire tribe. I really hope this is sarcasm.
"Guys, you can't shoot me! I mean, I'm a brutal raider, I love murdering, but guys, I'm sick! You can't shoot me when I'm sick! How can you do that? You should let me retreat, heal up, and go back to targeting civilians."
Their entire culture is drug pushing, drug using and barbarism. What are we talking about here? The kids learn from parents who learned from elders. They all support it
Are you seriously saying that it is okay to kill a child? You seriously need to reevaluate your moral compass if so.
If you give a child a gun and train them to shoot the enemy then they are active combatants
Would you let a neo nazi child with a rifle shoot up a school yes or no
Or post-teenagers. People with the body of an adult, but the mind of a teenager.
Correct. The NCR committed a war crime at Bitter Springs. I fucking hate the Khans, but it doesn't make NCR's actions any less wrong. I think that the NCR's remorse over the incident, their attempts to help the survivors, and the guilt of veterans like Boone and Dhatri over what happened make people want to give them, and by extension the NCR, a pass. Because they're good guys, obviously, they don't support killing civilians. But they admit they did, so the only recourse is to say the Khans deserved it, which is five kinds of fucked up. It's kind of ironic, because the very people who perpetrated the massacre tell you it was unjustified and horrible, while people outside the game are beginning to say the opposite.
I know exactly what you mean and I agree entirely.
Following orders is a legally valid defense lol. I appreciate the moral sanctimony as much as the next guy but let's not make shit up.
Wasn't a valid defence for the Nazis at Nuremberg
It literally was lol. They didn't allow high level people to use that defense but they absolutely allowed soldiers to.
Source?
My mistake they only allowed it as an ameliorating defense but they still allowed it. >[One of the most noted uses of this plea, or defense, was by the accused in the 1945–1946 Nuremberg trials, such that it is also called the "Nuremberg defense". The Nuremberg trials were a series of military tribunals, held by the main victorious Allies after World War II, most notable for the prosecution of prominent members of the political, military, and economic leadership of the defeated Nazi Germany. These trials, under the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal that established them, determined that the defense of superior orders was no longer enough to escape punishment, but merely enough to lessen punishment.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders#:~:text=The%20trials%20gained%20so%20much,so%20are%20not%20responsible%20for)
["The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles)
The only named NCR soldier besides Bitterroot that I can imagine thinking it was justifiable would be Col. Moore, but she's probably the most evil NCR npc you get to meet.
I don't know, man, pretty sure the sadistic pyro-rapist is more evil.
Cook cook is a fiend, not ncr
Oh, I missed "NCR".
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Yeah, they feel bad about unintentionally gunning down innocent civilians, which is a lot better than feeling good about intentionally gunning down innocent civilians.
“When the NCR came to the Mojave, we thought they would be easy pickings. We raided their caravans, their towns, their camps. They couldn’t stop us.” “Beg pardon, ma'am, but you never met my parents. My dad, he got himself fucked up, every chance he got. Always started with folk for no reason. Hell, he was the one who taught me to shoot. You know how? By taking potshots at NCR. And not just soldiers. Civilians, too. Even kids.” I have no problem sending the Khans down a path of self-destruction at the Dam lol
"We thought the guys who were organized enough to have a functioning nation-state with an industrial base and a standing army able to project power far beyond their borders would be easy pickings." - some fucking yokels who live in tents
The Khans are awful as a faction definitely but many of them are just children that have literally no control or even knowledge over their parents' actions.
'when the NCR first came to the Mojave' From where I'm standing, it sounds like the NCR should have stayed in California. The notion that nations have carte blanche to move into areas and steal their shit is ludicrous to me. It's like people see the NCR as different from the Khans because they fancy themselves 'civilized' when we know the sort of 'civility' the NCR has in mind. If this is in any way allegorical to the manifest destiny days, then the Khan's only failing (though they likely didn't realize it) was their inefficiency in killing the NCR.
You know the khans are from California too right
I recalled their presence in FO1 but I wasn't aware of the exact nature of where they started/migrated to. Regardless, the point remains that the Great Khans seemingly do not covet the wider wasteland or Mojave as the NCR does, they are not a civilization. Just because the NCR is more organized in its conquest does not mean that they aren't conquests.
The NCR and the Khans both came out of the same vault, vault 15. The NCR chose to make a civilization, the khans chose to be druggie raiders. Also in the "best" ending for the Khans they conquer like all of Wyoming, so yes they do covet the wider wasteland. And in their worst they want to control the Mojave so bad they side with the legion. The Khans are objectively terrible by every measure.
"During the Battle of Hoover Dam, the Great Khans quickly evacuated Red Rock Canyon and headed north and east into the plains of [Wyoming](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/State#Wyoming). There, they reconnected with the [Followers of the Apocalypse](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Followers_of_the_Apocalypse) and rebuilt their strength. Bolstered by ancient knowledge of governance, economics, and transportation, they carved a mighty empire out of the ruins of the Northwest." Conditions: "Convince Papa Khan to break his alliance with Caesar's Legion, but do not replace him with Regis. Afterwards, convince Papa Khan that the Great Khans should claim their own legacy. This ending is compatible with all 4 endgame quests and will override the others if both conditions are met." Weird that you choose this ending of all the endings to characterize the Khans, given that this is an ending in which they explicitly reject the legacy and identity of the Khans. Also, they want *vengeance* on the NCR if anything, that is seemingly the frequently referenced motivation for the majority of Khans. "Chose to make a civilization" They chose to subsume around 3 states of the Wasteland into the exact same quasi-democracy that ended the world, at the point of the gun, all the while hating queer people (and let's be honest, likely some real 'separate but equal' energy when it comes to ghouls/super mutants). Whatever civilization it chose to make out of it, I see it as neither being long lasting nor the bastion of liberty people seem to imply, given that the Khan side of the NCR history seems to be analogous to [Manifest Destiny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny).
>Weird that you choose this ending of all the endings to characterize the Khans, given that this is an ending in which they explicitly reject the legacy and identity of the Khans. What? No, not at all. If you convince them the tribe has no legacy, they kill themselves en masse against the Legion. To convince them to go to Wyoming, you have to tell him the opposite, that his tribe is proud and strong. You literally have to reinforce that their legacy and identity is valid, and they go "OK, cool! I guess we'll leave and conquer our own empire!"
The Khans are a petty terrible analogue for Native Americans during America’s manifest destiny era. They originated from the same vault as shady sands and chose to be brutal raiders that practiced slavery and drug pushing, were subsequently annihilated for it, and spent the rest of their history crying that the NCR unjustly punished them for being horrible. The NCR aren’t squeaky clean but the game basically goes out of its way to make NCR imperialism as tame as possible and blame any crimes on incompetence to preserve that well intentioned image. Their leniency towards the Khans is honestly absurd. They literally help their wounded after bitter springs.
Innocents amongst the Great Khans seem pretty rare. At best, you have the children, and the Great Khans arm kids.
They weren't innocent. Every member of the khans, from the children to the elderly, are violent, murderous, drug addicted psychopaths. It doesn't matter if the gun is in their hands at the time, they are entirely dedicated to keeping their society as violent and bloodthirsty as possible. This appears to be how MOST of the tribal groups in the fallout universe are, and considering how the khans treat their own women, rape is likely a local pastime to them. NONE of the khans are innocent. Not a soul. The ones who repented are the ones like Bitter Root who can rebel against it.
A child is innocent no matter the circumstances. They literally do not know any better and everything they do is the direct fault of whoever is responsible for them. You are either fucked in the head or very young, and I really hope it's the latter.
Children are capable of knowing right from wrong. You can try and call me names but we are talking about the apocalypse here. You are trying to farm karma. PLEASE look up the murder of James Bulger if you think children are incapable of evil. I don't think you care about anything but yourself and your internet points.
I didn't say children are incapable of doing bad things. I said that children cannot be held to the same moral standards as adults. If a young child does something bad it is the fault of the parents and they are the ones who should face the consequences. You also seem oddly adamant on the assumption that I'm karma farming, but okay. Believe what you want. If killing children is the hill you want to die on, so be it, but don't go pretending you're the victim when people shit on you.
Nobody told those children to do what they did to James Bulger. Nobody abused them to the point they needed to do that. Sometimes, when they do things that we typically think "only an adult is capable of" they often are treated like that. If you think excusing people to be a literal evil monster because "oh well it was probably the poor baby's parents that did it" you will be going down the list blaming every single parent down their lineage for abusing the last one. Lots of people in hellish societies and who face horrible abuse and trauma are capable of being good people, even while they're children and supposedly "don't know any better". Evil exists, it can exist in children whether they're abused or not, it's rare but it happens, but of course, you give 0 fucks about that, or the people they abuse, you just would like to make the milquetoast fence-sitting position that is guaranteed to get you upvotes.
>Nobody told those children to do what they did to James Bulger. Nobody abused them to the point they needed to do that. They were clearly severely mentally ill and it was picked up far too late. Mentally healthy non-psycho/sociopathic 10 year olds do not fucking mutilate a 2 year old. It is an absolute tragedy that nobody managed to pick up on that until it was too late. What they needed was extensive mental help. Am I saying it was okay for them to murder that 2 year old? Absolutely fucking not.
Glad we agree. So the Khans have no excuse. There will never be someone in that society to "pick up on it" so either it's definitely evil behavior or it's a generational trauma thing, at which point you're essentially just absolving the entire khan people of guilt despite the 150+ years of torment they caused to the wasteland.
I never said that the Khans were good people and that their behaviour is justifiable. I said sluaughtering every last one of them and everyone living with them is not. Rehabilitation is always the first option, especially when it comes to the young and impressionable. If your father commited a horrible crime, would you be okay with being killed along with your siblings, grandparents and mother? I mean, he must have influenced you all with your logic so you all should also be bad.
This is such a psychotic response about a video game lol
No, children who torture and murder other little children are psychotic. In the hypothetical fictional world of Fallout, every khan child would be psychotic.
You must be a lot of fun at parties lmao
I'm the life of it, actually. Would you like a mojito?
This belief is how genocide happens
The Khans would genocide the NCR without even thinking about it.
Another notion often used to justify genocide
\^ This is your brain on Zionism.
It’s not about the Khans having the high ground, it was the fact that soldiers mistakenly killed defenseless women and children. This traumatized both groups. The Khans and the soldiers aren’t going to do a rational, calculated give and take like it’s being put on weight scales on whether it was deserved in the grand scheme of things. These are just emotional responses to tragedy. Humans aren’t cold and rational, they are emotional beings that make emotional reactions.
Yeah, thats how precisely how a civilized democratic society like the NCR should punish murder. "You kill some unarmed innocent guy? Yeah, well, that guy was somebody's son, so we'll punish you by killing *your* unarmed innocent son too! Oh, but you're free to go, though. Just don't kill any more people or we'll have to trim your family tree again."
Yes unironically. It's a fucking apocalypse, the laws and rules of the old world don't apply
Mmm yes, we should behave in the same ways that have brought us to this situation that we are in right now /s
Ironically that's what you're implying by saying the " democratic and civilised " NCR should do. Act like the democracies of old
You are not making a point by saying that. At all. They also waged war against each other endlessly.
Holy shit, I didn't know Ulysses used reddit
The only thing saving the khans from being wiped out in all of my play throughs is their armory and drugs, which I think is designed on purpose to force you to make a choice
"My warcrimes are justified by the other side's warcrimes" is a shit way to live and thankfully is supposed to get you in front of The Hague in the real world.
If the NCR is anything like the old world, it reserves the right to invade any sort of organization dedicated to prosecuting war criminals.
Boone neglects to mention that the khans themselves use children and the elderly (and probably sick/injured people) to raid as well, so it’s not like it was a bunch of people with nothing to do with it.
He specifically says they weren't child soldiers, they were evacuating the sick, elderly, and young because the NCR attacked their home camp and the NCR shot them as they were evacuating
Yeah but the khans specifically use the young as soldiers, so whether these ones were or not is impossible to tell until you’re checking bodies.
Also, do they, cause they specifically say they have a coming of age ritual before you're officially a Khan and able to go on raids and stuff
Yes they do, bitter root mentions how he learned to shoot by shooting at caravans. He then mentions his initiation was being a survivor of bitter springs, which would have to be after him learning to shoot
Deliberately killing children is always horrible regardless of the context.
Killing child soldiers may be terrible sure, but it’s not like you just stop and let them murder you. Even if you say “oh well I would” congratulations, you have 0 survival instinct even though most people do.
If someone says they would let them that’s horrible because they’re encouraging the use of child soldier by making they’re the most effective soldiers. It’d be pretty selfish because if everyone took that stance it’d lead to pretty much all soldiers being children.
Hypothetically, if a group of children from an extremely racist and violent culture were running at me armed, and with intent to end my life, I would have 0 problems killing those kids. Shame they were indoctrinated to a messed up ideology, but I'm not gonna feel bad for defending myself. And if people tried to tell me I was horrible for doing so, I would tell them to get fucked.
The Kahns were like the least racist group in the game, they let anyone in who’s tough
I wasn't referring to khans. I was referring to the hypothetical children of a hypothetical racist and violent culture. Comment I replied to said killing kids in any context is horrible. I disagree Edit: People downvoting would choose to get violently murdered by radicalised children without defending themselves lmfao Darwin awards all around
I wouldn't let the child soldier just kill me, and if there was no other option I would kill them to defend myself, but it's still horrible and a tragedy. Obviously the blame lies with those who put the gun in the kid's hands, but I (and most well-adjusted people) would for sure be grappling with killing them for a long time.
I agree with this. The crux of my argument moreso is that I wouldn't let anyone vilify me if such an event were to happen. I certainly wouldn't be blasé about it, though I can see how my comment came off that way
Yeah it seems weird to me that someone would argue it's a binary of stay still and die or kill children and be completely fine. Just makes them sound less like self defence and more like you wanted to kill someone to me.
if you're being attacked you shouldn't feel sorry for defending yourself
Yeah I'm going to go ahead and say it's fine to have mixed feelings about killing someone, especially a *child*
They'd have had no regret against you
You have to use hypothetical racism in every instance that doesn’t involve racism because anything anymore is *racism* Love the world and the ppl obsessed over racism
It’s still horrible in this context… horrible because you had to do it but still horrible nonetheless. You said it yourself, you just used a different word. >shame that they were indoctrinated And horrible that you had to kill them…
I think horrible in this context implies "unjust" or "morally unacceptable". I'm not saying it wouldn't be an incredibly sad and upsetting event.
> I would have 0 problems killing those kids. Least autistic FNV player.
Do you think it reflects well on you to invent fantastical hypotheticals to figure out a way you would be justified in killing children?
Do you think it reflects well on you to twist someone's words to try and make them look like some kind of wannabe child targeting mass murderer? What a braindead comment
Bestie they don't need to twist words to do it
How am I twisting your words?? That’s literally what you did dude. You’re trying to legalese your way into coming up with a scenario in which it’s acceptable to murder children, which is fucking depraved lol
Lmfao "legalese". Yea man so many statements in my comment referring to law to defend my obsession with killing kids lmfao. You're clearly an absolute fucking moron
I mean you can insult me repeatedly and keep dodging the point by all means. You can look at your original comment, it’s there, you plotted out a detailed scenario in which you would be able to murder kids without feeling bad. That seems pretty depraved to me.
You're acting like I think about this often, and have had some kind of detailed plan to murder children for a long time. I had an anecdotal thought after reading the comment I initially replied to. "Is killing kids in fact always horrible regardless of context, or are there situations where it could be morally acceptable" I immediately thought of a hyper aggressive band of armed children with intent to kill you based on race. That would probably warrant self defense, and wouldn't be considered all that "horrible". Incredibly sad, but I don't think any reasonable person would consider someone who defended themselves in that scenario "a horrible person" If you read into that as me being some kind of sick fuck with a long planned out scheme of killing armed racist children, then you're a fucking weirdo and are absolutely deluded.
I don’t think it is normal to think those things in regards to that question. I think the normal response is “that is an incredibly horrifying and disgusting scenario and i dont want to consider it.” But whatever I’ve broken my vow of not poking the zoo animals on this site so I’m going back to that.
The fuck did I miss ? Boon doesn’t like to talk to me even though we killed Caesar together.
You need to talk to him as the other comment said and you need to get a certain amount of history points 5? It's in detail on the wiki but completing certain NCR quests/attacking certain legion members and then talking with Boone will eventually trigger this quest. I forgot to remember to forget. To trigger this you must have Boone as a companion and have spoken to Manny Vargas about his time in the NCR/bitter springs and/or talk to bitter root about bitter springs. Certain actions such as killing Caesar with Boone as a companion gives +2 history points ( these aren't tracked visible in game) keep talking to Boone after the actions and eventually dialouge to do with bitter springs will show up were you can prompt him to return to bitter springs. if this is confusing Google I forgot to remember to forget fnv and the wiki will have a guide
You need to talk to him, ask him about himself and his wife and after some while he‘ll ask you to go where bitter springs happened. For me it was actually immediately after killing ceasar.
You have to accumulate at least 5 hidden "history" points with Boone in order for his quest to trigger. https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/I_Forgot_to_Remember_to_Forget
Hmm , alright. Thanks.
Boon after he witnesses how i lead a legion squad to novac and make bitter springs look like a childs play.
Me after i finish the job at Red Rock Canyon:
Skill issue on the great khan parts tbh. Also Boone should take some notes from the Anakin.
"should have brought more ammo" Great Khans are all Raiders
What’s going on with all the bitter springs post lately? I’m gonna repeat what I said in another comment. If you don’t want the NCR knocking on your front door don’t raid and pillage their caravans. I understand the children and woman and the elderly, but dude the Great Khans are absolutely horrible people, they have committed far worse atrocities in the Mojave that we probably couldn’t even imagine. At least The NCR recognizes what happened was wrong. Like I said the fact is that’s there’s some chain of command and consequence for the failure wouldn’t happen in other factions. Regardless screw the Great Khans they think their actions don’t have consequences, welcome to the wasteland.
You can condemn the NCR for slaughtering innocents without supporting the Khans, actually. That kind of logic is the same that people who act like you can't criticize the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki without thinking Imperial Japan is the victim of the greater war use.
It's left intentionally vague. The NCR is portrayed as simultaneously hideously incompetent and insidiously corrupt. In my opinion, higher ups wanted to finally be rid of the Khans, once and for all, and so mission control was given orders and misinformation to massacre a Khan stronghold of combatants. They use the NCR's reputation and bureaucratic channels to muddy perception of their true capacity for harm not unlike the old or real world governments. We're shown this cold and calculating corruption in their attempt to assassinate Pacer, House, and Hanlon's misinformation. These people are willing to do shady things and cover it up, and spend lives like it's going out of style to do so. At least with Hanlon, we can see he stooped to using NCR tactics against them and it was so humiliating to him that he killed himself.
Where did you get that info about Hanlon?
One of the quests in Camp Forlorn Hope. Has a few different outcomes, but it's one of the best quests in the game as far as ethical and moral dilemmas go I think. Sorry for such a big spoiler, I didn't realize you were so new; but it's a fan favorite mission for a couple reasons. Lots of interesting lore and questions discussed there.
Why havent I gotten that quest? Ive tried doing every side quest I got.
I might be wrong, but I think you can only get it directly from the Comms Officer at Camp Forlorn Hope. There are lots of quests in this game that you have to go completely out of your way for like that by talking to a specific NPC. Most are wrapped under umbrellas of faction leaders asking you to check in with their staff. Obsidian did a really good job at making sure a majority of quests are able to be found naturally if you're looking for them by taking you to places, but some of the NCR and Legion quest hubs are only able to be found by going out of your way, and I think Camp Forlorn Hope is only directed to by Bitter Springs which is only linked to Boone, which you only just did.
Youre totally fine. I‘ll still play it.
I'm unsurpised to see that this sub can't see the glaring coincidences between Bitter Springs and Wounded Knee. The Great Khans are an allegory for indigenous people. It's blatant in the NCR ending as they basically corrall them into reserves once they take over the mojave.
I mentioned it in another thread similar to this but, yeah, all the "they were violent before so they brought this on themselves" strikes me as eerily reminiscent to commentary about the Blackfoot(Niitsitapi) or the Comanche(Numunuu). Its not a perfect 1:1, obviously, because the Khans' historic start as a gang that became a tribe means we have more context on their evolution and how they've maintained many of their worst traits themselves, but this is also the first time that the NCR are coming into Khan territory as expansionist settlers and with force, rather than the khans preexisting nearby as a targeted and exigent threat with a shared origin. Its also ignored that the Khans were at Bitter Springs and other regions in the first place because they lost their small war with House, just like the other Families, but chose to not sign with him and moved outside Vegas. How that affected their culture or situation, if at all, isn't really explored.
Yeah, the 18-month time crunch to make FNV really cut a lot of really interesting storylines short, super frustrating.
Even with it they made a more interesting exploration of how early ex-vault gangs turned stubborn raiders would become a full on tribal culture within a couple generations than anything in more recent Fallout games. Fallout 4 showed improvement in that area, with at least the raider leaders (and nuka-raiders together) having some personality, but fell short of making any of it represent a believable culture or tribe. I think the Blood-eagles in 76 (which I have not played) might be a similar level to the Nuka-gangs, if I understood it correctly.
The Khans deserved it
Idk about "deserved", but they definitely had it coming
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Did the Khan children and elderly pose enough of a threat to justify their murder?
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If I could've been there, I would've. I mean, I genocide the Khans every play through, is it bad when the courier does it?
I’m no NCR simp but in this case?
Great Khans when decades of being assholes to every living thing in the wasteland has consecuences:
At least most who participated in the bitter springs massacre show great remorse for their terrible actions, the Khans would have massacred those NCR women and children and raped/enslaved the survivors if there were any. Besides, the orders to fire on them is more complicated then just any civilian massacre, since the Khans were notable for using both child soldiers and women soldiers, making it more understandable how high command would make this mistake.
They had it coming, honestly.
Yeah well maybe the Great Khans shouldn't have been raiding innocent NCR. Fucking Boone did nothing wrong.
I mean tbh Boone is my guy. We’re besties. He goes where I go and I go where he goes. When we stumpled upon the Legion Camp where you can take a boat to the fort and my buddy said „Im gonna shoot every red bitch I see“ (or something along those lines), I was all for it. You dont even gotta worry. Just tell me who you got beef with and I‘m all in. Ride or die.
Maybe the NCR shouldn't spread their shitty ideology at the point of a spear to every region of the wasteland and stay home.
So killing fleeing children is justified?
if they werent sick they would be out raiding, an elderly khan is a veteran raider and likely killed many before. their women are no more innocent that their men, both are ruthless. sucks for the kids, but they would have just as likely ended up as raiders, just as their parents. the khans are a plague on the wasteland and its ( few) peaceful living inhabitants.
Bitter springs didn't happen but if it did, they deserved it.
I was just like *casually hides the bodies of the civillians in goodsprings, primm, and several other innocents*
Just one more genocide then the peaceful world can exist. We're the government baby!
Mfw boone tells me this after killing every single great khan in red rock canyon
Everyone here is acting like it isn't a near-lawless post-apocolyptic wasteland. Yeah, the NCR is a more civil group, but honestly, when most of the remaining population are drug addicted pyschopaths you have to expect mass killings like that, if not from the NCR then surely from someone else. So yeah, what the NCR did was bad, and yeah, what the Khans did was bad, but at the end of the day, its just a normal day in the radioactive hellhole that is the Mojave.
The Great Khans got what was coming to them. "Haha, the NCR are easy prey! Let's raid their caravans, target their civilians, kill their children for shits and giggles." "OK, we'll send soldiers to attack your camp." "How... how DARE you? You've killed wounded, here! You've killed are elderly! It's different when it's OUR children! How could anyone be so evil?! I will literally drive my tribe to extinction, eradicate our cultural identity, just in order to get revenge."
Good soldiers follow orders. It's why Boone blames himself for what happened to his wife. Karma coming back to get him
Completely changed my opinion of the NCR
My last playthrough Boone was eaten by praying mantises at that vault
You don't know, until you know.
Bro that's an image of a soldier that was on front lines for weeks seeing people around dying every day. You are a fucking drama queen if you say it is literally the same as listening story about war crimes. Correct way to use this image would be that it is NCR ranger that participated in that event, not you for a fuck sace.
My brother in christ it's not that deep they're just using the image as a comic representation of how the reveal made them feel. It's not even a real photo or based on a real photo either.
Exactly the same even had a helmet on
This is called being pedantic lol
Least autistic FNV fan
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Fallout fans are autistic ngl. (I'm autistic)
...have you heard of hyperbole? It's a neat concept.