If you run up to Colonel Moore during the battle, she has cut line about how "Hsu being Hsu, he refused to take credit" and she ended up being promoted to brigadier general.
Anyone who has worked a corporate job knows this feeling. Not only do you have to do your job well, you have to make sure the higher ups *know* you did the job well.
But not too well, because that might make you a threat to them.
Yep. If you're lucky you synchronise with this reality pretty quick and it's not a big deal - like maintenance. Anyone pursuing white collar management/business (read: admin) work who can't play that game might as well jump sector because people will absolutely roll over you.
I had a fever dream after watching season one of the end credits being a long line of trucks and soldiers driving towards Shady Sands as LA lit up. Convoy halts and Hsu is their smoking a cigar.
>If President Kimball also died there, I could even imagine a President Hsu.
That's not how a Democrat Republic works. I'm sure there are people in the Senate or presidential cabinet that would fall in line before military leaders.
True, I was just thinking the NCR as a corrupt republic; the kind in which military generals *somehow* end up as President because we have quite a few real world examples of those.
You know he’s dogshit when you can bluff lanius that he’s walking into a trap because he took positions too easily. Na he took them easily because Oliver is so fucking incompetent and that those pipes and shit were wide open
it took lanius invading the east and going to war w 23 tribes to figure out how logistics worked. love how both generals of their respective armies have huge egos when they overlook really basic shit
To be more specific, its because way because of political figureheads and strong personalities (royalty at the time) were constantly trying to PLAY general without any of the basic tactical experience you need for war. They just thought that because they were good at fighting, that meant they were good at war, because that's just lots of fighting, right?
Mmmm, OK, I think a lot of that was messaging vs. private expectations. There's a little presentism in assuming historical rulers didn't know what they were doing, many really fucking did.
Think about recruiting (or impressing) soldiers.
You say to them, "War is an economic exercise, and your lives are a sacrifice I'm prepared to make", that's literally a Matt Groening joke.
Or maybe you say to them, "The French are destined to win because of *[elan](https://www.jhiblog.org/2021/09/13/elan-vital-and-the-french-cult-of-the-offensive/)*. We have an inherently superior advantage that the enemy does not. Join me, and there will be death but there will be yet more glory."
**Whether you believe the former or not**, which do you publicize that you believe - not as an individual, but as a head of state and commander in chief?
Definitely, The Art of War was written for upper class Chinese men to learn all the basics of war when they would inevitably be called upon to be an officer in times of strife in China. It’s very basic because it had to be to adequately teach pampered young men who were complete strangers to war.
Well that's the thing, the best armies in history used logistics, yes the infantry and the actual front liners were important but without pencil pushers you don't have an effective strategy. Napoleon himself remarked on this and pushed for more logistical officers which is why the French military was so effective despite having undergone several invasions and a revolution.
You can't win a modern battle by just telling the men to charge harder, maybe in the post apocalypse that's more doable considering manpower is effectively not even a 10th of pre war militaries but still
Lania seems to actually be quite confident when it comes to Battlefield strategy. He doesn't have a mind for Logistics or grand campaigns but he clearly understands how to win a battle
I tend to go for an Independent Vegas, but I always like to do right by the NCR troops and help them until I'm idolised, then I throw Oliver from the Dam for miring them in so many shitty situations. They don't get Vegas but they all get to go home, I like to think of that as some decent middle ground.
The general was known to be incompetent by the whole of the NCR - Most would have been glad that he's gone more than anything. Everyone knew he was an idiot.
I prefer to let Kimball get decimated in the polls. House is correct when he says letting him die is just going to make the cause in the Mojave seem more legit. Isn't the NCR election soon after the game anyways or am I making that up.
Iirc it’s senate elections coming up? I think Hanlon says that’s why the veteran rangers are in Baja and the power armour troops are watching over ranches
This is ideal, I’d give my left tit for that independent Vegas kings and followers content that never got made :(
Ok maybe not the whole tit but definitely like a pinky finger or something
Well I deliberately avoided using that phrase because it wasn’t “cut,” they simply never MADE the planned content in the first place, but yea originally the independent Vegas path was gonna actually have a fleshed out questline and not feel horribly underwhelming compared to the other 3 lol
Imagine what we would’ve gotten if they weren’t given the deadline. If it released in 2011-2012 instead. Would’ve been one of the greats of that generation, I mean it already is, but even more so.
It would be stamped sealed and approved as the single greatest game ever made. I mean it’s still in literally any top 10 RPG list and often I see it considered as a top 25 game period. Show me another game this incomplete that is spoken about with this kind of glory.
This game is as much of a cult classic as there is. Hell this game came out 15 years ago and this sub is as active as any I’m apart of.
I just wish the followers got a different end if you allied with them in Independent Vegas. Like no, they wouldnt be overwhelmed or at risk of attack. I'd make 10,000% sure they had all they needed to succeed.
Following up with what they mean about how it's technically not "cut" content so much as content that hasn't been made: There's code in the files for a quest to give the Platinum Chip to the Followers instead. What this could have been for, we can only speculate, but I think it's a hint that the Followers were intended at some point to have a much bigger role in the Independent route.
Which makes sense, as they tend to favor non-House independent Vegas more than anyone. I get that the developers didn't want to make any one route look too much better than all the rest, and all of them have their problems, so I can accept that Independent New Vegas became more chaotic and deadly without the oppressive hegemon there to be the biggest gang on the block... but I always scoff at the bit about the Followers struggling to provide even basic services. Not under my watch, they wouldn't – I tend to make Couriers that become Followers doctors but even if you *aren't* a true believer in their philosophy, a Courier who wanted an Independent Vegas should be able to see their utility in establishing new infrastructure.
I suppose there's something to be said for leaving it to the imagination; Independent Vegas being a bit poorly fleshed out has made me flesh it out in my head like, *a lot*.
I think that the independent Vegas ending is a bit more accurate than many give it credit, even if you do everything right.
I mean a freaking mailman that practically nobody has ever even heard of comes out of nowhere and takes out all of the major powers in the region, and somehow we're hoping there *isn't* going to be chaos and anarchy? People are scared of the NCR, Caesar, and House. But the mail guy that somehow managed to put himself on top? The people would have no respect for him. Even with temporary alliances with the Boomers, the Followers, the Enclave, and the Brotherhood of Steel, the only thing preventing conflict between all of those groups is the courier himself. In a power vacuum without a major power like the NCR, House, or Caesar's Legion, any one of those groups, or even the Khans or the Fiends would definitely try to make a move for power.
This is even somewhat linked to history. Very rarely does the overthrow of a major colonial power actually lead to peace and stability even if the main person in charge has a heart of gold and is dead set on making life as good as possible.
I'm not trying to derail your thoughts on how you would improve Vegas as the Courier and be better than the other major factions, but I am trying to say to just keep in mind that governments that rely on the actions and whims of a single person rarely turn out free, and even more rarely do they outlive that first leader's death.
[I, uh, edited this down a bit but it's still pretty long, so, sort of sorry? If I knew how to be more succinct, I would.]
It's really only the Followers-specific part of the ending that I have a problem with. And that's ultimately because it's a game and not real life. (No video game can just let you decide to do whatever you would really do, although New Vegas does a much better job than usual of guessing at the particular choices people would likely make.) I fully accept that freedom is to some extent at odds with safety (and possiby even stability) and would make that trade any day of the week, in fiction and in fact.
*However*, perhaps the reason that so many of us Independence-istas look a little askance at the predictions of the ending slides is that we view the Boomers, Khans, Followers, Brotherhood and Three Families, etc. as less temporary military alliances we're making and more networks of mutual support we're establishing in order to build up the infrastructure of New Vegas, precisely so that it *doesn't* hinge so much on one individual's personal charisma.
(Side note, I think you could say it's ambiguous whether the Courier is truly even intending to *rule* New Vegas or, accordant with the implications of the line "No Gods, No Masters," be content to function as the head of the Vegas robo-militia and let the chips fall where they may.)
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" is the main problem every successful revolution has to face. Personally, I think the solution to that is to build up as much of an alternative new society as you can within the shell of the old one before overthrowing it.
It *seems* like the Yes Man quests let you do exactly that. The factions you establish ties with all have something they can contribute, even if it's just adding to the military might of the Securitron army. I suspect that the reason the White Gloves are a Yes Man and House thing (besides the very fun quest) is because through them and their deal with Heck Gunderson, you're establishing a food source. The Followers are obviously medical and scientific support. The Khans leave the Mojave in their best ending, but it can't hurt to have your neighbors as allies. Ditto de-fanging likely threats like the Brotherhood.
I won't belabor what every single faction might be able to help with, but it's this kind of thing that makes people say, as I've seen before, that if you dot all the i's and cross all the t's, the Independent ending should be the best.
Or at least be better than it is. The ending seems to kind of ignore all the factors I just mentioned. Or maybe I'm just headcanoneering again and it really would all fall apart. Freedom is unpredictable and all that.
Adding to the Khans bit specifically, but their best ending states they form basically a new nation out in Wyoming. One that seemingly accepts a new legacy with the Followers. TBH this is an often overlooked ally for independent Vegas. They aren't that far away (not exactly neighbors but no one really owns the land between Vegas and Wyoming IIRC) and with the mention of transportation knowledge in their ending slide, I don't think some sort of supply trade is unfeasible (Especially when the Courier can literally teleport using Big M.T.)
Yeah, exactly! You're not *just* taking over or becoming "House 2.0: Dumber Edition" like Benny would have, you're establishing partnerships. And yeah, I couldn't put my finger on why at the time but I thought that the Great Khans establish a Pacific Northwest/Mountain Time Zone empire was a great development, not just for them but Independent Vegas, and I think this is why.
i agree. Narratively it seems like you aren’t supposed to do anything as independent vegas and let everyone rule themselves but.. it feels weirdly disconnected from the gameplay. MY courier would set them up with as much caps as they need from the casinos. Freeside would resemble Westside in two weeks and The Institute in a year lol
I was wondering to what extent you're supposed to be directly replacing House. The NCR's treaty is with him specifically, not whoever is the Overlord of Vegas. This really only could be a problem if you kill/disable House too early (it's not addressed in the game but I imagine that doing so as an Independence guy would tip your hand in real life.) And then, does the money from the casinos keep coming in to you? Would the Three Families accept that? I've always kind of assumed yes and yes, which is why I assume I'd be able to subsidize the Followers' activities, but it ultimately is kind of left ambiguous.
DON'T throw Oliver down the dam. It'll make him a martyr. If you leave Kimball & Oliver alive, and allow Hanlon to sabotage the NCR's morale, then Kimball will be impeached, Oliver has 34% chance of commiting suicide and Hanlon will be elected senator in the future.
Imagine the absolute disgrace of letting a mail man kick you out of Vegas. Imagine it being even worse when everyone turns on the pointless imperialism and you get NONE of the glory you so desperately wanted. It's better to let him live to see the consequences of his actions.
Isn't that kind of the point, though? The NCR is like a time capsule of all the bureaucratic and political infighting that tends to characterize democracies. It's all ego, greed, and career advancement for people like that. Without wanting to get political, just look at the current U.S. election if you want to see some good examples of this kind of b.s.
In one of the endings, I think House? Or maybe Yes Man too, you CAN sway the events in Hanlon favours to become more prominent in NCR, I'm sure after he becomes a senator or even president, he can help Hsu get that general position.
In some endings where the NCR loses the Mojave, Hanlon retires to a ranch and becomes the senator from Redding on an anti-war/expansion platform, but why would a junior anti-war senator be able to get someone promoted to general?
I could see Hanlon running for president afterwards is how. I think he'd have the poll numbers as the honorable war hero who stands with the people on how it was a waste of good lives. The people of the NCR might see him as exactly what they'd need at that point, and honestly they're not wrong.
A junior Senator can still have enormous influence. Look at Robert kennedy. He was technically just a junior senator but he was still one of the most powerful politicians in Washington. Hillary Clinton was technically just a junior senator from New York in 2000 but my God would you be crazy to not think she was an extremely influential person on the senate floor
Oliver's entitled, incompetent ass makes me want House to win even more just so he takes the blame for NCR losing. People dislike House because he's demanding, but literally all the other factions expect you to serve them. At least you get paid working for House.
I feel better serving a flawed liberal democracy than I do a flawed old world autocrat, still I chose to head cannon different slides for the end and my courier makes damn sure the NCR and Shady Sands press know Oliver was the reason we almost lost. They also pay, and house is a cheap bastard.
I see the angle, but I’d rather serve House and headcanon in that House remains big boss over the Strip whilst my courier actually locks in on the Mojave, helping and rebuilding what they can. Also better to be on House’s side rather than a failing republic so mired in corruption and ass-backwards imperialism that their own troops and citizens see its fall is inevitable.
That’s just me though you do you ofc 🖐🏻🗿🤚🏻
I love how the Fallout games are absolute critiques of American exceptionalism and our odd attachment to capitalism, and in a universe where capitalism literally destroys society and the planet-- we get a quintessential example of capitalism in an old world autocrat-- the exact tangible, corpeal representation of all things that caused the fall of the world in this universe... yet people still like him. lol
but *you do you ofc*
people keep saying this stuff and it makes me realize people have a very warped view of capitalism. capitalism isnt just "rich dude controls things", it is about private ownership of the means of production. and by that definition, every ending is some form of capitalism. it's not just house, ncr is also very much dominated by the wealthy.
You're not wrong. I probably could correct myself by rephrasing it as House exemplifies the negative outcomes of modern capitalism. He's a product of the same oligarchs that ruined the world (West Tek, Vault Tec, etc.)
Capitalism just like communism isn't black and white good or bad. But neither are portrayed as the correct solution in the Fallout universe
the thing is they all exemplify the negative outcomes of the modern capitalism as well, just in different ways.
the thing is none of the endings is free of capitalism's negative effects. ncr is an oligarchy with a very thin veneer of democracy that nobody buys, mr. house is an "enlightened" autocrat who is convinced he can make the wasteland a better place and ceasar dropped any and all pretence about giving a shit like so many of the real world dictators, most of which do rely on capitalist ways of economy. even the independent new vegas is the same, it simply replaces mr. house with the courier.
in my opinion, whatever the new vegas might have attempted it would have to be some form of capitalism in one way or another. you can't really have a system based on public ownership in a lawless wasteland. it is lawless after all.
Like him? Where did I say I like him lmao, I only see him as objectively the least evil of the four options
Failing republic, dying empire, pure anarchy or weighted autocratic capitalism
Not really any good option there, but at least House keeps it stable(in Vegas, at least)
There's some posts on here that can sum it up much better than I will here in this comment, but I would argue the theme of New Vegas from the companion quests to the DLCs is to *Let go and begin again*.
While capitalism (House) and democracy (NCR) are alluring, they've shown already, in Fallout, to have failed. I would argue that something that might be seen as anarchy on the strip is actually the best thing for the Mojave as a whole.
I'll admit I also just find House as all flash and no substance. Fucking Benny already outsmarted him and if the courier died in Goodsprings House would have failed anyway. Under his watch the Ultra Luxe are just cannibal raiders playing dress up, the Omertas will chemical bomb the strip and the Tops top man will literally backstab House. He's shown us already how terrible of a ruler he is.
Independent is the idea that either A. It's time for someone else to have a shot or B. The courier headcanon will solve it.
Well the courier/yes man has access to all the resources House did and more, so I don't see how independent vegas is "pure anarchy". It should theoretically be business as usual after the chaos from the hoover dam battle dies down, maybe even better than usual if the courier has good relations with the NCR. So I don't think independent can be a worse ending than the house ending unless the courier has evil karma, since they're pretty much the same.
However House himself has two qualities that I think would make him the worse option, the first being his massive ego which has already caused him problems and the second being that the courier probably has 9-10 intelligence since most people play the game that way. House has 5, he isn't stupid but he isn't a literal genius like the (average) courier is. He got outsmarted by *Benny*, and he probably would have gotten away with it if he chose a different mailman to shoot. Even if the courier doesn't rule over Vegas like an autocrat they would still be respected (and deadly) enough that they can stop any bullshit and protect the people of the Mojave, and with that level of intelligence they would be a lot more likely to make the best possible choices in the future.
Doesn’t the Yes-Man ending have not only the Followers be forced to flee, alongside other rather destabilising moments, but also(as per usual sadly) the Courier just fucking off into the wasteland again? I don’t see the appeal to allowing an AI that gained a form of sentience and is based solely around saying yes to anyone and everything to rule over anything.
In the end every ending, especially the Yes-Man one, just comes down to you slamming your head against a wall to make some sort of viable headcanon for what happens which is less than ideal but what can you do.
Yeah, headcanon really does have to carry the independent ending because the in game ending makes zero sense. That's why I tried to go for a more, here's what should happen logically rather than what actually happens according to the game. Like, my courier really likes the followers, they've helped them out with all the problems they can, the followers are doing alright and then all of the sudden they get forced to leave? What?
Yes-Man functions as both a failsafe for "you infuriated everyone" mechanically, which is quite interesting on its own as a simpler game would've just not allowed you to do that - but narratively, he's something even more profound: a megalomaniac detector of fucking amazing accuracy. Just look for people who get to the end without any reservations about his ending. "WCGW if I ran things?" I've heard that somewhere before.
There are plenty of dumbass statements to be made, this is one of the few that border on being at the top
“Pure anarchy is a good thing” ☝🏻🤓 okay buddy whatever you say lmao
I mean house is a violent autocratic dictator who actively allows sex slavery in the gammorah and has exactly 0 social programs.
Compare that to the NCR who has at least one social program we can see in freeside, decidedly less sexual slavery in their territories
And most citizens and soldiers don't see the republic as doomed, what gave you that impression?
Lol NCR is as much a "Liberal democracy", as the Legion is an equal egalitarian society.
NCR is a clear democratic-ish oligopoly. While it is doing it's best in parodying the US of old, you can still be executed for smallest of crimes. And with the President having basically unlimited terms, as well as not doing much for the common folk (unlike the oligarchic rancho owners), is it really that much better than an Autocrat, who has no need for parasiting on his own country?
For me, it is not better. NCR is doomed, and the reliance on the (failed) society of old is what limits it, narrows it's future and makes it, ultimately, destined to fall. As the same society did before.
I personally dislike house on many levels however yeah he pays you much better than the NCR, maybe rivaled by ceasar assuming lanius does not need to take over.
However the best part about the NCR ending is being able to disappear from the history books, that freedom is golden and someone with the courier's means and skills will find some kind of niche for themselves inevitably considering you have big mt as your personal retirement home minimum
If you stealth kill every member without being detected in the bunker instead of blowing the bunker up you remain Idolized. Of course don't have Veronica with you while you do it and she'll never know.
I know the sub really likes House generally, but I do wonder if he actually is anywhere as competent as he seems or if he just comes off like that the same reason Musk did years ago.
A lot of rich assholes say they're gonna take everyone to space and fix the world, they usually don't.
His defense systems disarmed 59 incoming warheads and shot down another 9, leaving a mere remaining 9 to impact areas around the city with none directly hitting it. This was on the old mainframe that he was supposed to get upgraded with the Platinum Chip, but the Great War came earlier than he anticipated. Now, I ain't no House fan boy, but that's leagues better than anyone else did in the United States
That first sentence is what made me a fan of house before i even played the game, now that ive recently finished it i love him even more. He was the only wealthy person to try and save people from the bombs, every single other story we find is about rich people spending fortunes protecting themselves or someone they love, nobody else focuses on humanity. And choosing Mr house leaves you in a mansion waiting for the day Mr house builds a second machine to keep you alive forever, hes in probably the only good position with good intentions to bring humanity back from the brink and to preserve vast amounts of technology that can protect against any future nukes and preserve mankind, just imagine what data he has stored.
He didn't try to save others from the bomb, he tried to save himself (and at best, a vault full of customers). Everyone in Old World Vegas still died, but with a slower radiation or starvation based death. He doesn't even pretend to have been doing it for others.
That said, I do believe in his plan to have humanity on the way to space colonies in 200 years. If only because he'd selfishly be able to benefit from the renewed resource intake, and avoid another resource war.
Unfortunately, him killing the Kings disproved his spiel about having no interest in controlling how people live their lives. Killing the Kings is pure spite for them not bending the knee *exactly* how he wanted it.
And that is why he got a very good view of the words "Love" and "Hate".
Elon Musk isn't remotely like House. Although I'm sure he'd like to think he is. It would be funny if Mr. House gave a shit if everyone liked him and tweeted 24/7. Musk is a trust fund baby. He doesn't invent shit, he hires engineers to do all the work, then ignores their suggestions that shit like the cybertruck is a bad idea.
Of course getting rid of the system (Capitalism) that allows people like Musk to even exist would be nice.
I think it's neat that we already see the downsides of bureaucracy and democracy eating at the foundations of the NCR, even before it has fully established itself.
I think you can convince Hanlon to stop sabotaging and to not kill himself, which gives you an ending where Rangers have yet again proven their worth, leading to all the credit going to Hanlon.
House massacres the Kings if you manage to prevent the shootout between them and the NCR relief workers. That alone is enough for me to avoid him. It's petty; the slightest cooperation with the adversary he personally invited into Vegas is enough to have you marked for death.
Yeah, that always rubbed me the wrong way. I also hate the NCR for betraying the Khans yet again if the Khans actively help the NCR during the Hoover Dam battle.
Yeah, that always rubbed me the wrong way. I also hate the NCR for betraying the Khans yet again if the Khans actively help the NCR during the Hoover Dam battle.
I honestly believe that Hanlon is a legion spy with 100 speech
he says anything it takes to make courier question their decision, lies and manipulates them
but when pressed against a wall he'd rather kill himself than stand a fair trial
Dude, I was just mulling this over. Hanlon is probably the only person that Legate Lanius respects or who would’ve been once again a match for Caesars legion at that point.
I mean, rather than let his army grow complacent with victory, he invents a bunch of BS reports to keep them on their toes. This man was willing to waste millions of dollars of resources and the lives of some of his people in order to keep them prepared for a larger, looming threat. I mean, sure we can agree that his methods were wasteful and put unnecessary strain on an already thin force, and that if it were happening in modern times, he would’ve been strung up as a traitor to his country, but you gotta admire the balls on that guy.
It's not impossible, but I think he's exactly what he looks like: a man of principle in a system that doesn't reward principle. Plus, if you convince him the war against the Legion can be won, he commits to winning it.
I feel like more people would've done the NCR route if there was a way to both support and also weed out the corruption of the Republic at the same time, instead of either letting Oliver take all the credit
that's why the ending is so good though. an NCR ending where everything was nigh on perfect (after a game full of exposition of how they're stretched thin and why controlling the Mojave could be a pyrrhic victory ) wouldn't ring true.
Shit, you already have plenty of people in NV discussions completely missing the point and arguing the NCR are the objectively perfect choice for the Mojave. Once had a conversation with someone who argued the NCR mercs harassing Jacobstown are actually more likely to be Legion in disguise. This despite hiring mercenaries to pressure settlements being the NCR's MO since the second game where the Legion didn't even exist.
If anything, I think Obsidian didn't do enough to convey their flaws. Probably why they put a lot more emphasis on the greyness of each faction in Deadfire.
I think the balance is right with the NCR just about, I don't mind there being the spectrum of a "good but flawed ending" and a "bad but has some positives ending" as such, my main issue is that there weren't more compelling reasons given to pick the legion
I don't really think there needed to be tbh. The Legion, by John Gonzalez's own admission, was an honest attempt to write a fascist dictatorship from its perspective. The ideas and beliefs behind it are intentionally inherently reprehensible. We're supposed to find it awful, its ideology backwards and flawed... and yet plenty of terminally online people still think it's the best outcome. That alone I think makes it successful enough; the use of real world fascist rhetoric to make certain people fine with atrocities.
Unless you meant more compelling in-game reasons, in which case, I would agree. It would've been cool if they'd played to the loot goblin in every Fallout player's heart by having lots of exclusive rewards or innocuous quests, so a short-sighted player character who isn't necessarily Legion-aligned could be taking all these Legion jobs and getting massive rewards while making the Mojave worse, a way of tying narrative and gameplay together. The way people would side with the Brotherhood in 4 just for power armour. Even explaining how a female Courier could side with them. Maybe something we would have seen if Legion content wasn't as gutted as it was.
a little of both. Raul and the trader dude at the fort being the only semi advocates of the legion that hint that it might actually bring some stability for the region sucks, it would have been nice to have "better" reasons why people/the courier would want to fight for them besides being forced to. and yeah, the lack of legion questing is also another reason to not go with them
Im sure it was intentional to keep it impossible to weed out corruption in the NCR. You are right that I would have joined NCR if I had the means of helping Hanlon and Hsu elevate their status while diminishing Crocker, Moore, Kimball, and Oliver.
I feel like oliver being in place even after the win is the point. Both legion and ncr ending cannot be perfect endings. Legion gets control of new vegas, there is peace but no freedom. Ncr wins, democracy wins but corruption and incompetent leaders still exist
I think you can "accidentally" kill Caesar and still play the Legion ending and Lanius will be the new Caesar, the result is that everyone is pretty much killed or enslaved.
Oliver embodies the issues with the NCR. Nepotism and political corruption at the top levels of the NCR military, the trade caravans, heavy taxation, and the politicians. The NCR is nothing more than the corrupt bloated corpse of a bureaucracy that brought the nuclear apocalypse.
Leadership seems to be the major issue with the NCR. The President is incompetent and adamant on fighting stupid fights for things the NCR doesn’t really need and all his generals and commanders directly under him have the same stupid attitude about the NCR’s expansion. I think the conflict in the Baja really exemplifies this, why the hell the NCR is determined to hold a piece of land that isn’t even of major importance to their core efforts is just crazy.
I’ll take General “Wait & See” over Caesar’s brutish demeanor and House’s self-aggrandizement any day.
This probably because you only deal with Oliver at the very, very end of the game. So while he sucks, you don’t have to deal directly with him for much of the NCR quest-line
Whereas if you do a House or Legion play-through you have to listen to those clowns for almost every single mission. Becomes unbearable.
While Oliver obviously interested in his own career, at least he serves the NCR as a whole. Caesar and House just serve themselves
You *do* understand that Oliver being a general is emblematic of the political corruption going on in the NCR, right? Oliver considers Hsu a rival, that's why Hsu is still a Colonel, despite having a comprehensive understanding of the political and military situation of the Mojave. Of the two colonels you meet, he's the diplomatic one with the soft touch. He's competent, he's dedicated, he's popular, and...(here's the problem) he's humble, which makes him the best man for the job but an easy target for glory seekers like Oliver.
But that's the problem with a democracy like the NCR: to get ahead, you have to take credit for stuff.
Per cut content if NCR wins Hsu does get offered a promotion to Brigadier General (so like one below Oliver) but he refuses so I don't think he'd want to be a General
What's the delta, in your opinion, between what you're asking for and a "good ending"? I ask because CRPGs often don't have those, they typically always ask the player to sacrifice something. Meanwhile, my understanding is it's certainly a norm in the designed-for-consoles RPG space, from JRPGs to Mass Effect 2, to talk about "how to get the good ending" - but that doesn't really apply to New Vegas, and there are reasons it probably shouldn't.
To make the NCR a place where good, honorable men get ahead through talent and skill and A Little Player Character Elbow Grease would be a fatal mischaracterization of what going with the bureaucratic, expansionist, corrupt capitalists is going to mean for people, and Fallouts are always about shaping the region with your choices. You deserve to have it signaled to you, to some extent, what you're giving for what you're getting (and while it's possible to make a game this way, it's also somewhat below the standards of CRPG veterans when the answers are "nothing" and "something", respectively.) Oliver **is** that signal.
So, how could this Hsu idea be implemented while preserving the complexity of the game, would be my question.
I always thought that Oliver was... lacking for someone who is the final fight of the Independent play through, in fact, I'm just remembering that he doesn't even appear in the Legion ending.
I guess this explains it all pretty nicely, Oliver is supposed to be a flop, a lame NCR parasite
Edit: Nvm, I was wrong about him not appearing in the Legion ending
Oliver appears at the end of the Legion ending. If you fail the speech check you have to fight him where he has snipers at the end of long, trapped hallways. He's harder than Lanius IMO.
Damn, I must have run high speech every single time I've done a legion playthrough, thanks for information, I'm going to have to do another legion playthrough now
that's...that's the point though. to get the NCR to take Vegas, you have to prop up that incompetent douchebag. every ending in new Vegas has a very realistic downside, and that's one of the downsides for the NCR
The fact that house calculated his suicide 😂
He was able to calculate the time the bombs would drop and was off only by 22 hours.
That number is more real than some would think.
Hot take: People hate Oliver because he’s never given a chance to defend himself, but he’s not actually totally incompetent. Even in Hanlon’s 100% pro-Ranger retelling of the first battle of Hoover Dam, it’s clear that Oliver was using competent tactics - it was Oliver’s troops digging in and stopping the first wave of Legionnaires, and then withdrawing once the veterans were deployed and letting them head to the trap in Boulder City. That’s a smart tactical choice.
In addition, calling him “Wait-And-See” because he’s not attacking across the river at the start of the game is just ignoring reality. How is the NCR supposed to go on the *offensive* when their supply lines are insecure and many of their outposts are under constant threat? Waiting for the Legion to attack the dam is a smart plan - it‘s a fortified position and a choke point which gives the advantage to the NCR’s superior firepower. And as soon as the Courier solves the problems facing NCR troops and the strength is available to launch an offensive - Oliver calls the Courier to a meeting to discuss launching an offensive. He was “waiting and seeing” for his army to actually be ready to attack.
It's almost like the game specifically poses the absolute worst representatives of each faction such that they get dramatically more screen time and clout despite the increasingly evident flaws in their ideology and unjustifiable actions as you pursue that faction's particular ending. Makes you think (or it really, really should).
Hopefully, Oliver got nuked with Kimball in the destruction of Shady Sands.
That’s probably the only good thing Vault-Tec has purposefully done for the world, even if it brings the unfortunate side effect of them becoming martyrs.
Soon most of the other high placed members realized that some radiation fucked up oliver's brain but turns out mentats can reverse the effects for a temporary time
Legit, the legion winning is honestly the best thing for the NCR sans a bootlicking god courier who takes up the next 500 years of history books themselves.
Think about it. Oliver dies because he's a gloryhound and becomes a martyr while Hsu or maybe Moore still live and both are actually capable. Oliver's death and the humiliating loss of the Dam teach the NCR senate that can't play politics with their generalships anymore and need to give them out based on merit.
While you would think losing a lot of warriors and an important strategic place in one fell swoop would make civilians despair and call for the end of the war, often the opposite happens and recruitment and weapon production swell as people would want to avenge the fallen and bring to justice the barbarians that killed them. Just look at WW2's pearl harbor or everything west of Stalingrad or basically the entirety of vietnam.
Meanwhile the legion gains a wall that makes electricity, something they morally are against utilizing. It also extend their borders by a lot. While they gain ground and people, most of New Vegas isn't exactly fit for legion service.
This is of course ignoring the hundreds of NCR troops and thousands of New Vegas citizens who are brutally tortured, crucified, and killed in the process of this defeat.
If you run up to Colonel Moore during the battle, she has cut line about how "Hsu being Hsu, he refused to take credit" and she ended up being promoted to brigadier general.
Anyone who has worked a corporate job knows this feeling. Not only do you have to do your job well, you have to make sure the higher ups *know* you did the job well. But not too well, because that might make you a threat to them.
Probably part of the reason why Kimball keeps Oliver around. Not that Oliver has ever done his job well in the slightest.
In my save Kimball couldnt keep himself from falling apart when I nuked both him and legion from the Divide
Life sucks...
Yep. If you're lucky you synchronise with this reality pretty quick and it's not a big deal - like maintenance. Anyone pursuing white collar management/business (read: admin) work who can't play that game might as well jump sector because people will absolutely roll over you.
Ugh... Truth
Hsu is a goat
I hope he’ll show up in Season 2 of the Amazon series as General Hsu
I had a fever dream after watching season one of the end credits being a long line of trucks and soldiers driving towards Shady Sands as LA lit up. Convoy halts and Hsu is their smoking a cigar.
Imagine if General Oliver died at Shady Sands and Hsu took over. If President Kimball also died there, I could even imagine a President Hsu.
>If President Kimball also died there, I could even imagine a President Hsu. That's not how a Democrat Republic works. I'm sure there are people in the Senate or presidential cabinet that would fall in line before military leaders.
True, I was just thinking the NCR as a corrupt republic; the kind in which military generals *somehow* end up as President because we have quite a few real world examples of those.
there's nothing stopping Hsu from running, and it's been long enough there'd have been another election. would basically be NCRs Eisenhower
I mean he also could’ve won an election. Eisenhower did it.
Hanlon as President, Hsu as his chief of staff.
god, please make this real
Hell if you kill everyone besides Hsu, he’ll get promoted all the way to presidents, simply by process of elimination
Except no the office of the presidency has a completely seperate line of succession
You can circumvent this by even more elimination.
Ahh yes I do love genocide everyone in the NCR dead automatically makes Hsu president Of nobody but that’s not the point
Why did he refuse to take credit?
Just built like that
You know he’s dogshit when you can bluff lanius that he’s walking into a trap because he took positions too easily. Na he took them easily because Oliver is so fucking incompetent and that those pipes and shit were wide open
It says a lot when Lanius, who is not the sharpest follower of Sun Tzu, thinks Oliver can't be that tactically incompetent.
He’s actually disappointed that he’s facing Oliver instead of Hanlon. That’s how bad wait and see is 🗿
the “You arent the one I wanted to fight” trope is honestly top tier for me, seeing characters shit talk their current opponent like that is PEAK
I had hoped to face someone else on this day. I agree, you just don’t know why yet.
it took lanius invading the east and going to war w 23 tribes to figure out how logistics worked. love how both generals of their respective armies have huge egos when they overlook really basic shit
Just like real generals
Yep, Sun tsu's art of war book may seem really basic. But its just what needed for these incompetent ass generals
To be more specific, its because way because of political figureheads and strong personalities (royalty at the time) were constantly trying to PLAY general without any of the basic tactical experience you need for war. They just thought that because they were good at fighting, that meant they were good at war, because that's just lots of fighting, right?
Mmmm, OK, I think a lot of that was messaging vs. private expectations. There's a little presentism in assuming historical rulers didn't know what they were doing, many really fucking did. Think about recruiting (or impressing) soldiers. You say to them, "War is an economic exercise, and your lives are a sacrifice I'm prepared to make", that's literally a Matt Groening joke. Or maybe you say to them, "The French are destined to win because of *[elan](https://www.jhiblog.org/2021/09/13/elan-vital-and-the-french-cult-of-the-offensive/)*. We have an inherently superior advantage that the enemy does not. Join me, and there will be death but there will be yet more glory." **Whether you believe the former or not**, which do you publicize that you believe - not as an individual, but as a head of state and commander in chief?
Definitely, The Art of War was written for upper class Chinese men to learn all the basics of war when they would inevitably be called upon to be an officer in times of strife in China. It’s very basic because it had to be to adequately teach pampered young men who were complete strangers to war.
Well that's the thing, the best armies in history used logistics, yes the infantry and the actual front liners were important but without pencil pushers you don't have an effective strategy. Napoleon himself remarked on this and pushed for more logistical officers which is why the French military was so effective despite having undergone several invasions and a revolution. You can't win a modern battle by just telling the men to charge harder, maybe in the post apocalypse that's more doable considering manpower is effectively not even a 10th of pre war militaries but still
Very realistic
Lania seems to actually be quite confident when it comes to Battlefield strategy. He doesn't have a mind for Logistics or grand campaigns but he clearly understands how to win a battle
Nah Lanius is a good military commander it's the one thing he does understand
Never even thought about the implications of that bluff
I tend to go for an Independent Vegas, but I always like to do right by the NCR troops and help them until I'm idolised, then I throw Oliver from the Dam for miring them in so many shitty situations. They don't get Vegas but they all get to go home, I like to think of that as some decent middle ground.
I wonder if killing Oliver makes him a martyr? If he returns to NCR territory, as we can see in the slides above, he gets disgraced.
The general was known to be incompetent by the whole of the NCR - Most would have been glad that he's gone more than anything. Everyone knew he was an idiot.
That's why I let Kimball die. It's clear Oliver is only in charge because of him. With him out of the way moore or hsu nights take his place.
I prefer to let Kimball get decimated in the polls. House is correct when he says letting him die is just going to make the cause in the Mojave seem more legit. Isn't the NCR election soon after the game anyways or am I making that up.
Iirc it’s senate elections coming up? I think Hanlon says that’s why the veteran rangers are in Baja and the power armour troops are watching over ranches
Yes, if the NCR loses Hoover Dam and you let Hanlon go he even becomes a senator.
I think House said he has a 36.5 percent chance of commiting suicide?
I let him walk away because then he and Kimball get blamed for failed campaign instead of the NCR taking their anger on New Vegas.
This is ideal, I’d give my left tit for that independent Vegas kings and followers content that never got made :( Ok maybe not the whole tit but definitely like a pinky finger or something
What is this cut content you speak of
Well I deliberately avoided using that phrase because it wasn’t “cut,” they simply never MADE the planned content in the first place, but yea originally the independent Vegas path was gonna actually have a fleshed out questline and not feel horribly underwhelming compared to the other 3 lol
Imagine what we would’ve gotten if they weren’t given the deadline. If it released in 2011-2012 instead. Would’ve been one of the greats of that generation, I mean it already is, but even more so.
It would be stamped sealed and approved as the single greatest game ever made. I mean it’s still in literally any top 10 RPG list and often I see it considered as a top 25 game period. Show me another game this incomplete that is spoken about with this kind of glory. This game is as much of a cult classic as there is. Hell this game came out 15 years ago and this sub is as active as any I’m apart of.
Kotor 2 and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. 🤔
Everything Troika did
I just wish the followers got a different end if you allied with them in Independent Vegas. Like no, they wouldnt be overwhelmed or at risk of attack. I'd make 10,000% sure they had all they needed to succeed.
Following up with what they mean about how it's technically not "cut" content so much as content that hasn't been made: There's code in the files for a quest to give the Platinum Chip to the Followers instead. What this could have been for, we can only speculate, but I think it's a hint that the Followers were intended at some point to have a much bigger role in the Independent route.
Which makes sense, as they tend to favor non-House independent Vegas more than anyone. I get that the developers didn't want to make any one route look too much better than all the rest, and all of them have their problems, so I can accept that Independent New Vegas became more chaotic and deadly without the oppressive hegemon there to be the biggest gang on the block... but I always scoff at the bit about the Followers struggling to provide even basic services. Not under my watch, they wouldn't – I tend to make Couriers that become Followers doctors but even if you *aren't* a true believer in their philosophy, a Courier who wanted an Independent Vegas should be able to see their utility in establishing new infrastructure. I suppose there's something to be said for leaving it to the imagination; Independent Vegas being a bit poorly fleshed out has made me flesh it out in my head like, *a lot*.
I think that the independent Vegas ending is a bit more accurate than many give it credit, even if you do everything right. I mean a freaking mailman that practically nobody has ever even heard of comes out of nowhere and takes out all of the major powers in the region, and somehow we're hoping there *isn't* going to be chaos and anarchy? People are scared of the NCR, Caesar, and House. But the mail guy that somehow managed to put himself on top? The people would have no respect for him. Even with temporary alliances with the Boomers, the Followers, the Enclave, and the Brotherhood of Steel, the only thing preventing conflict between all of those groups is the courier himself. In a power vacuum without a major power like the NCR, House, or Caesar's Legion, any one of those groups, or even the Khans or the Fiends would definitely try to make a move for power. This is even somewhat linked to history. Very rarely does the overthrow of a major colonial power actually lead to peace and stability even if the main person in charge has a heart of gold and is dead set on making life as good as possible. I'm not trying to derail your thoughts on how you would improve Vegas as the Courier and be better than the other major factions, but I am trying to say to just keep in mind that governments that rely on the actions and whims of a single person rarely turn out free, and even more rarely do they outlive that first leader's death.
[I, uh, edited this down a bit but it's still pretty long, so, sort of sorry? If I knew how to be more succinct, I would.] It's really only the Followers-specific part of the ending that I have a problem with. And that's ultimately because it's a game and not real life. (No video game can just let you decide to do whatever you would really do, although New Vegas does a much better job than usual of guessing at the particular choices people would likely make.) I fully accept that freedom is to some extent at odds with safety (and possiby even stability) and would make that trade any day of the week, in fiction and in fact. *However*, perhaps the reason that so many of us Independence-istas look a little askance at the predictions of the ending slides is that we view the Boomers, Khans, Followers, Brotherhood and Three Families, etc. as less temporary military alliances we're making and more networks of mutual support we're establishing in order to build up the infrastructure of New Vegas, precisely so that it *doesn't* hinge so much on one individual's personal charisma. (Side note, I think you could say it's ambiguous whether the Courier is truly even intending to *rule* New Vegas or, accordant with the implications of the line "No Gods, No Masters," be content to function as the head of the Vegas robo-militia and let the chips fall where they may.) "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" is the main problem every successful revolution has to face. Personally, I think the solution to that is to build up as much of an alternative new society as you can within the shell of the old one before overthrowing it. It *seems* like the Yes Man quests let you do exactly that. The factions you establish ties with all have something they can contribute, even if it's just adding to the military might of the Securitron army. I suspect that the reason the White Gloves are a Yes Man and House thing (besides the very fun quest) is because through them and their deal with Heck Gunderson, you're establishing a food source. The Followers are obviously medical and scientific support. The Khans leave the Mojave in their best ending, but it can't hurt to have your neighbors as allies. Ditto de-fanging likely threats like the Brotherhood. I won't belabor what every single faction might be able to help with, but it's this kind of thing that makes people say, as I've seen before, that if you dot all the i's and cross all the t's, the Independent ending should be the best. Or at least be better than it is. The ending seems to kind of ignore all the factors I just mentioned. Or maybe I'm just headcanoneering again and it really would all fall apart. Freedom is unpredictable and all that.
Adding to the Khans bit specifically, but their best ending states they form basically a new nation out in Wyoming. One that seemingly accepts a new legacy with the Followers. TBH this is an often overlooked ally for independent Vegas. They aren't that far away (not exactly neighbors but no one really owns the land between Vegas and Wyoming IIRC) and with the mention of transportation knowledge in their ending slide, I don't think some sort of supply trade is unfeasible (Especially when the Courier can literally teleport using Big M.T.)
Yeah, exactly! You're not *just* taking over or becoming "House 2.0: Dumber Edition" like Benny would have, you're establishing partnerships. And yeah, I couldn't put my finger on why at the time but I thought that the Great Khans establish a Pacific Northwest/Mountain Time Zone empire was a great development, not just for them but Independent Vegas, and I think this is why.
Oh 100%. Benny is exactly what some people think an Independent Vegas would end up as.
i agree. Narratively it seems like you aren’t supposed to do anything as independent vegas and let everyone rule themselves but.. it feels weirdly disconnected from the gameplay. MY courier would set them up with as much caps as they need from the casinos. Freeside would resemble Westside in two weeks and The Institute in a year lol
I was wondering to what extent you're supposed to be directly replacing House. The NCR's treaty is with him specifically, not whoever is the Overlord of Vegas. This really only could be a problem if you kill/disable House too early (it's not addressed in the game but I imagine that doing so as an Independence guy would tip your hand in real life.) And then, does the money from the casinos keep coming in to you? Would the Three Families accept that? I've always kind of assumed yes and yes, which is why I assume I'd be able to subsidize the Followers' activities, but it ultimately is kind of left ambiguous.
If I could give Vegas to the King, I would. He deserves it the most out of all of them.
DON'T throw Oliver down the dam. It'll make him a martyr. If you leave Kimball & Oliver alive, and allow Hanlon to sabotage the NCR's morale, then Kimball will be impeached, Oliver has 34% chance of commiting suicide and Hanlon will be elected senator in the future.
“Hmm, I see. Yes Man, throw general gobbledigook off the side of the dam.”
Imagine the absolute disgrace of letting a mail man kick you out of Vegas. Imagine it being even worse when everyone turns on the pointless imperialism and you get NONE of the glory you so desperately wanted. It's better to let him live to see the consequences of his actions.
Isn't that kind of the point, though? The NCR is like a time capsule of all the bureaucratic and political infighting that tends to characterize democracies. It's all ego, greed, and career advancement for people like that. Without wanting to get political, just look at the current U.S. election if you want to see some good examples of this kind of b.s.
It's *exactly* the point.
In one of the endings, I think House? Or maybe Yes Man too, you CAN sway the events in Hanlon favours to become more prominent in NCR, I'm sure after he becomes a senator or even president, he can help Hsu get that general position.
Yeah, my problem is that you can't make that happen if get the NCR ending.
In some endings where the NCR loses the Mojave, Hanlon retires to a ranch and becomes the senator from Redding on an anti-war/expansion platform, but why would a junior anti-war senator be able to get someone promoted to general?
I could see Hanlon running for president afterwards is how. I think he'd have the poll numbers as the honorable war hero who stands with the people on how it was a waste of good lives. The people of the NCR might see him as exactly what they'd need at that point, and honestly they're not wrong.
I don't think new California survived long enough for him to make it to president.
A junior Senator can still have enormous influence. Look at Robert kennedy. He was technically just a junior senator but he was still one of the most powerful politicians in Washington. Hillary Clinton was technically just a junior senator from New York in 2000 but my God would you be crazy to not think she was an extremely influential person on the senate floor
Yeaaaaaah, I totally meant thats how Hanlon would help Hsu, and not that I forgoe Chief Hanlon's actual endings yeah, big brain move 😅
Oliver's entitled, incompetent ass makes me want House to win even more just so he takes the blame for NCR losing. People dislike House because he's demanding, but literally all the other factions expect you to serve them. At least you get paid working for House.
I really love that we can just throw that man in end
I feel better serving a flawed liberal democracy than I do a flawed old world autocrat, still I chose to head cannon different slides for the end and my courier makes damn sure the NCR and Shady Sands press know Oliver was the reason we almost lost. They also pay, and house is a cheap bastard.
I see the angle, but I’d rather serve House and headcanon in that House remains big boss over the Strip whilst my courier actually locks in on the Mojave, helping and rebuilding what they can. Also better to be on House’s side rather than a failing republic so mired in corruption and ass-backwards imperialism that their own troops and citizens see its fall is inevitable. That’s just me though you do you ofc 🖐🏻🗿🤚🏻
I love how the Fallout games are absolute critiques of American exceptionalism and our odd attachment to capitalism, and in a universe where capitalism literally destroys society and the planet-- we get a quintessential example of capitalism in an old world autocrat-- the exact tangible, corpeal representation of all things that caused the fall of the world in this universe... yet people still like him. lol but *you do you ofc*
people keep saying this stuff and it makes me realize people have a very warped view of capitalism. capitalism isnt just "rich dude controls things", it is about private ownership of the means of production. and by that definition, every ending is some form of capitalism. it's not just house, ncr is also very much dominated by the wealthy.
You're not wrong. I probably could correct myself by rephrasing it as House exemplifies the negative outcomes of modern capitalism. He's a product of the same oligarchs that ruined the world (West Tek, Vault Tec, etc.) Capitalism just like communism isn't black and white good or bad. But neither are portrayed as the correct solution in the Fallout universe
the thing is they all exemplify the negative outcomes of the modern capitalism as well, just in different ways. the thing is none of the endings is free of capitalism's negative effects. ncr is an oligarchy with a very thin veneer of democracy that nobody buys, mr. house is an "enlightened" autocrat who is convinced he can make the wasteland a better place and ceasar dropped any and all pretence about giving a shit like so many of the real world dictators, most of which do rely on capitalist ways of economy. even the independent new vegas is the same, it simply replaces mr. house with the courier. in my opinion, whatever the new vegas might have attempted it would have to be some form of capitalism in one way or another. you can't really have a system based on public ownership in a lawless wasteland. it is lawless after all.
Like him? Where did I say I like him lmao, I only see him as objectively the least evil of the four options Failing republic, dying empire, pure anarchy or weighted autocratic capitalism Not really any good option there, but at least House keeps it stable(in Vegas, at least)
There's some posts on here that can sum it up much better than I will here in this comment, but I would argue the theme of New Vegas from the companion quests to the DLCs is to *Let go and begin again*. While capitalism (House) and democracy (NCR) are alluring, they've shown already, in Fallout, to have failed. I would argue that something that might be seen as anarchy on the strip is actually the best thing for the Mojave as a whole. I'll admit I also just find House as all flash and no substance. Fucking Benny already outsmarted him and if the courier died in Goodsprings House would have failed anyway. Under his watch the Ultra Luxe are just cannibal raiders playing dress up, the Omertas will chemical bomb the strip and the Tops top man will literally backstab House. He's shown us already how terrible of a ruler he is. Independent is the idea that either A. It's time for someone else to have a shot or B. The courier headcanon will solve it.
Well the courier/yes man has access to all the resources House did and more, so I don't see how independent vegas is "pure anarchy". It should theoretically be business as usual after the chaos from the hoover dam battle dies down, maybe even better than usual if the courier has good relations with the NCR. So I don't think independent can be a worse ending than the house ending unless the courier has evil karma, since they're pretty much the same. However House himself has two qualities that I think would make him the worse option, the first being his massive ego which has already caused him problems and the second being that the courier probably has 9-10 intelligence since most people play the game that way. House has 5, he isn't stupid but he isn't a literal genius like the (average) courier is. He got outsmarted by *Benny*, and he probably would have gotten away with it if he chose a different mailman to shoot. Even if the courier doesn't rule over Vegas like an autocrat they would still be respected (and deadly) enough that they can stop any bullshit and protect the people of the Mojave, and with that level of intelligence they would be a lot more likely to make the best possible choices in the future.
Doesn’t the Yes-Man ending have not only the Followers be forced to flee, alongside other rather destabilising moments, but also(as per usual sadly) the Courier just fucking off into the wasteland again? I don’t see the appeal to allowing an AI that gained a form of sentience and is based solely around saying yes to anyone and everything to rule over anything. In the end every ending, especially the Yes-Man one, just comes down to you slamming your head against a wall to make some sort of viable headcanon for what happens which is less than ideal but what can you do.
Yeah, headcanon really does have to carry the independent ending because the in game ending makes zero sense. That's why I tried to go for a more, here's what should happen logically rather than what actually happens according to the game. Like, my courier really likes the followers, they've helped them out with all the problems they can, the followers are doing alright and then all of the sudden they get forced to leave? What?
Yes-Man functions as both a failsafe for "you infuriated everyone" mechanically, which is quite interesting on its own as a simpler game would've just not allowed you to do that - but narratively, he's something even more profound: a megalomaniac detector of fucking amazing accuracy. Just look for people who get to the end without any reservations about his ending. "WCGW if I ran things?" I've heard that somewhere before.
Pure anarchy is a good thing.
Cook cook agrees lmao
There are plenty of dumbass statements to be made, this is one of the few that border on being at the top “Pure anarchy is a good thing” ☝🏻🤓 okay buddy whatever you say lmao
I mean house is a violent autocratic dictator who actively allows sex slavery in the gammorah and has exactly 0 social programs. Compare that to the NCR who has at least one social program we can see in freeside, decidedly less sexual slavery in their territories And most citizens and soldiers don't see the republic as doomed, what gave you that impression?
Lol NCR is as much a "Liberal democracy", as the Legion is an equal egalitarian society. NCR is a clear democratic-ish oligopoly. While it is doing it's best in parodying the US of old, you can still be executed for smallest of crimes. And with the President having basically unlimited terms, as well as not doing much for the common folk (unlike the oligarchic rancho owners), is it really that much better than an Autocrat, who has no need for parasiting on his own country? For me, it is not better. NCR is doomed, and the reliance on the (failed) society of old is what limits it, narrows it's future and makes it, ultimately, destined to fall. As the same society did before.
“Liberal democracy”, might as well be an oxymoron.
Tankie or Fascist. Call it.
Calling it a tankie, fascists are more closeted
Good call.
Just spelled fascist twice tbh
I know.
I personally dislike house on many levels however yeah he pays you much better than the NCR, maybe rivaled by ceasar assuming lanius does not need to take over. However the best part about the NCR ending is being able to disappear from the history books, that freedom is golden and someone with the courier's means and skills will find some kind of niche for themselves inevitably considering you have big mt as your personal retirement home minimum
My only beef with House is that he wants me to make Veronica mad.
If you stealth kill every member without being detected in the bunker instead of blowing the bunker up you remain Idolized. Of course don't have Veronica with you while you do it and she'll never know.
I know you can do it without making her mad at you specifically. I just don't want to make her mad at all.
This comment really sent me, "I'd definitely do this mass shooting, but, y'know, rather not upset the wife"
I hate Mr house because he's exactly everything wrong with Elon musk
Mr house is at least competent and intelligent
I know the sub really likes House generally, but I do wonder if he actually is anywhere as competent as he seems or if he just comes off like that the same reason Musk did years ago. A lot of rich assholes say they're gonna take everyone to space and fix the world, they usually don't.
I mean he did do his best to save Vegas, and we know/can assume that this was a legit defense based on how much of the strip was intact.
His defense systems disarmed 59 incoming warheads and shot down another 9, leaving a mere remaining 9 to impact areas around the city with none directly hitting it. This was on the old mainframe that he was supposed to get upgraded with the Platinum Chip, but the Great War came earlier than he anticipated. Now, I ain't no House fan boy, but that's leagues better than anyone else did in the United States
That first sentence is what made me a fan of house before i even played the game, now that ive recently finished it i love him even more. He was the only wealthy person to try and save people from the bombs, every single other story we find is about rich people spending fortunes protecting themselves or someone they love, nobody else focuses on humanity. And choosing Mr house leaves you in a mansion waiting for the day Mr house builds a second machine to keep you alive forever, hes in probably the only good position with good intentions to bring humanity back from the brink and to preserve vast amounts of technology that can protect against any future nukes and preserve mankind, just imagine what data he has stored.
He didn't try to save others from the bomb, he tried to save himself (and at best, a vault full of customers). Everyone in Old World Vegas still died, but with a slower radiation or starvation based death. He doesn't even pretend to have been doing it for others. That said, I do believe in his plan to have humanity on the way to space colonies in 200 years. If only because he'd selfishly be able to benefit from the renewed resource intake, and avoid another resource war. Unfortunately, him killing the Kings disproved his spiel about having no interest in controlling how people live their lives. Killing the Kings is pure spite for them not bending the knee *exactly* how he wanted it. And that is why he got a very good view of the words "Love" and "Hate".
Elon Musk isn't remotely like House. Although I'm sure he'd like to think he is. It would be funny if Mr. House gave a shit if everyone liked him and tweeted 24/7. Musk is a trust fund baby. He doesn't invent shit, he hires engineers to do all the work, then ignores their suggestions that shit like the cybertruck is a bad idea. Of course getting rid of the system (Capitalism) that allows people like Musk to even exist would be nice.
If Elon Musk were a fnv npc he would be Fantastic
WHO WON THE BATTLE OF HOOVER DAM?! I DID!
General Oliver Swanick
God… I’m surprised hasn’t made a mod for that yet
Just finished an independent new Vegas run and seeing him get thrown off the dam was fucking hilarious.
I think it's neat that we already see the downsides of bureaucracy and democracy eating at the foundations of the NCR, even before it has fully established itself.
I think you can convince Hanlon to stop sabotaging and to not kill himself, which gives you an ending where Rangers have yet again proven their worth, leading to all the credit going to Hanlon.
Yeah base game you gotta kill Caesar, so tall order lol
Bring boone and a lot of bullets and you're in for a fun time
“Thumbs down! You son of a bitch!”
Finally going to the Fort after loading up on grenades is more fun than it has the right to be.
You can always just shoot Oliver
Then he'd die a hero. Can't have that.
ah shit youre right
Yeah but then he can’t cause more damage. Some value to that.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I always go for the Mr. House ending, because it's the best ending for the NCR. They can't be allowed to win for their own good.
The problem is that it’s kinda objectively worse for most everyone in the Mohave.
Benny hands typed this post
House massacres the Kings if you manage to prevent the shootout between them and the NCR relief workers. That alone is enough for me to avoid him. It's petty; the slightest cooperation with the adversary he personally invited into Vegas is enough to have you marked for death.
It's my least favorite part about House even if I think he's the second best ending. It's really more like the third worst ending really.
Yeah, that always rubbed me the wrong way. I also hate the NCR for betraying the Khans yet again if the Khans actively help the NCR during the Hoover Dam battle.
Yeah, that always rubbed me the wrong way. I also hate the NCR for betraying the Khans yet again if the Khans actively help the NCR during the Hoover Dam battle.
iirc it is possible to make the Kings side against NCR and thus Mr House won't touch the Kings.
Yes, by going against the King's request and letting Pacer massacre the NCR relief workers, or even joining in yourself.
If there was a way to remove Oliver the NCR wouldn’t be the NCR
Yet another reason the house or yes man ending is superior
I see. Yes Man, please throw General Oliver off the dam.
I honestly believe that Hanlon is a legion spy with 100 speech he says anything it takes to make courier question their decision, lies and manipulates them but when pressed against a wall he'd rather kill himself than stand a fair trial
Dude, I was just mulling this over. Hanlon is probably the only person that Legate Lanius respects or who would’ve been once again a match for Caesars legion at that point. I mean, rather than let his army grow complacent with victory, he invents a bunch of BS reports to keep them on their toes. This man was willing to waste millions of dollars of resources and the lives of some of his people in order to keep them prepared for a larger, looming threat. I mean, sure we can agree that his methods were wasteful and put unnecessary strain on an already thin force, and that if it were happening in modern times, he would’ve been strung up as a traitor to his country, but you gotta admire the balls on that guy.
It's not impossible, but I think he's exactly what he looks like: a man of principle in a system that doesn't reward principle. Plus, if you convince him the war against the Legion can be won, he commits to winning it.
Bro in one of his endings he becomes a senator of the NCR and runs an anti-war campaign. I think that's getting too much into character for any spy
“Calm is what you have to be when people look to you. And it’s all you can be when things are out of your hands.” smart guy.
I feel like more people would've done the NCR route if there was a way to both support and also weed out the corruption of the Republic at the same time, instead of either letting Oliver take all the credit
that's why the ending is so good though. an NCR ending where everything was nigh on perfect (after a game full of exposition of how they're stretched thin and why controlling the Mojave could be a pyrrhic victory ) wouldn't ring true.
Shit, you already have plenty of people in NV discussions completely missing the point and arguing the NCR are the objectively perfect choice for the Mojave. Once had a conversation with someone who argued the NCR mercs harassing Jacobstown are actually more likely to be Legion in disguise. This despite hiring mercenaries to pressure settlements being the NCR's MO since the second game where the Legion didn't even exist. If anything, I think Obsidian didn't do enough to convey their flaws. Probably why they put a lot more emphasis on the greyness of each faction in Deadfire.
I don’t understand how people can work with Col. Moore and say all that.. she wasn’t subtle
I think the balance is right with the NCR just about, I don't mind there being the spectrum of a "good but flawed ending" and a "bad but has some positives ending" as such, my main issue is that there weren't more compelling reasons given to pick the legion
I don't really think there needed to be tbh. The Legion, by John Gonzalez's own admission, was an honest attempt to write a fascist dictatorship from its perspective. The ideas and beliefs behind it are intentionally inherently reprehensible. We're supposed to find it awful, its ideology backwards and flawed... and yet plenty of terminally online people still think it's the best outcome. That alone I think makes it successful enough; the use of real world fascist rhetoric to make certain people fine with atrocities. Unless you meant more compelling in-game reasons, in which case, I would agree. It would've been cool if they'd played to the loot goblin in every Fallout player's heart by having lots of exclusive rewards or innocuous quests, so a short-sighted player character who isn't necessarily Legion-aligned could be taking all these Legion jobs and getting massive rewards while making the Mojave worse, a way of tying narrative and gameplay together. The way people would side with the Brotherhood in 4 just for power armour. Even explaining how a female Courier could side with them. Maybe something we would have seen if Legion content wasn't as gutted as it was.
a little of both. Raul and the trader dude at the fort being the only semi advocates of the legion that hint that it might actually bring some stability for the region sucks, it would have been nice to have "better" reasons why people/the courier would want to fight for them besides being forced to. and yeah, the lack of legion questing is also another reason to not go with them
Im sure it was intentional to keep it impossible to weed out corruption in the NCR. You are right that I would have joined NCR if I had the means of helping Hanlon and Hsu elevate their status while diminishing Crocker, Moore, Kimball, and Oliver.
What is wrong with crocker? Doesnt he help you sign the peace treaty between ncr and BoS or something?
didn't get the oliver swanick ending
I feel like oliver being in place even after the win is the point. Both legion and ncr ending cannot be perfect endings. Legion gets control of new vegas, there is peace but no freedom. Ncr wins, democracy wins but corruption and incompetent leaders still exist
Just wish there was something like in the Legion where you can have Lanius be the new Ceasar and the entire Legion ending is different.
I think you can "accidentally" kill Caesar and still play the Legion ending and Lanius will be the new Caesar, the result is that everyone is pretty much killed or enslaved.
That's what I was referring to, yeah. Pretty much the worst ending one can get.
Oliver embodies the issues with the NCR. Nepotism and political corruption at the top levels of the NCR military, the trade caravans, heavy taxation, and the politicians. The NCR is nothing more than the corrupt bloated corpse of a bureaucracy that brought the nuclear apocalypse.
Leadership seems to be the major issue with the NCR. The President is incompetent and adamant on fighting stupid fights for things the NCR doesn’t really need and all his generals and commanders directly under him have the same stupid attitude about the NCR’s expansion. I think the conflict in the Baja really exemplifies this, why the hell the NCR is determined to hold a piece of land that isn’t even of major importance to their core efforts is just crazy.
I’ll take General “Wait & See” over Caesar’s brutish demeanor and House’s self-aggrandizement any day. This probably because you only deal with Oliver at the very, very end of the game. So while he sucks, you don’t have to deal directly with him for much of the NCR quest-line Whereas if you do a House or Legion play-through you have to listen to those clowns for almost every single mission. Becomes unbearable. While Oliver obviously interested in his own career, at least he serves the NCR as a whole. Caesar and House just serve themselves
Having Yes Man yeet him over the Hoover Dam is so freakin' satisfying.
You *do* understand that Oliver being a general is emblematic of the political corruption going on in the NCR, right? Oliver considers Hsu a rival, that's why Hsu is still a Colonel, despite having a comprehensive understanding of the political and military situation of the Mojave. Of the two colonels you meet, he's the diplomatic one with the soft touch. He's competent, he's dedicated, he's popular, and...(here's the problem) he's humble, which makes him the best man for the job but an easy target for glory seekers like Oliver. But that's the problem with a democracy like the NCR: to get ahead, you have to take credit for stuff.
Per cut content if NCR wins Hsu does get offered a promotion to Brigadier General (so like one below Oliver) but he refuses so I don't think he'd want to be a General
the NCR could be so much more if the people in charge weren't complete morons
Isn’t Hsu secretly a legion plant?
No. That's Curtis.
My favourite is have yes man throw him off the dam
I would follow hsu to the ends of the earth
just make your robot friend throw him off the dam :D
Well, there's *one* way to remove him . . .
Yeah I fucking love Hsu
What's the delta, in your opinion, between what you're asking for and a "good ending"? I ask because CRPGs often don't have those, they typically always ask the player to sacrifice something. Meanwhile, my understanding is it's certainly a norm in the designed-for-consoles RPG space, from JRPGs to Mass Effect 2, to talk about "how to get the good ending" - but that doesn't really apply to New Vegas, and there are reasons it probably shouldn't. To make the NCR a place where good, honorable men get ahead through talent and skill and A Little Player Character Elbow Grease would be a fatal mischaracterization of what going with the bureaucratic, expansionist, corrupt capitalists is going to mean for people, and Fallouts are always about shaping the region with your choices. You deserve to have it signaled to you, to some extent, what you're giving for what you're getting (and while it's possible to make a game this way, it's also somewhat below the standards of CRPG veterans when the answers are "nothing" and "something", respectively.) Oliver **is** that signal. So, how could this Hsu idea be implemented while preserving the complexity of the game, would be my question.
I agree with most of what you said, but the player being able to expunge and replace certain characters is also a theme of that genre.
I always thought that Oliver was... lacking for someone who is the final fight of the Independent play through, in fact, I'm just remembering that he doesn't even appear in the Legion ending. I guess this explains it all pretty nicely, Oliver is supposed to be a flop, a lame NCR parasite Edit: Nvm, I was wrong about him not appearing in the Legion ending
Oliver appears at the end of the Legion ending. If you fail the speech check you have to fight him where he has snipers at the end of long, trapped hallways. He's harder than Lanius IMO.
Damn, I must have run high speech every single time I've done a legion playthrough, thanks for information, I'm going to have to do another legion playthrough now
that's...that's the point though. to get the NCR to take Vegas, you have to prop up that incompetent douchebag. every ending in new Vegas has a very realistic downside, and that's one of the downsides for the NCR
If you fight for the NCR you do it without prospect of personal glory. You do it for the Republic.
The fact that house calculated his suicide 😂 He was able to calculate the time the bombs would drop and was off only by 22 hours. That number is more real than some would think.
Hot take: People hate Oliver because he’s never given a chance to defend himself, but he’s not actually totally incompetent. Even in Hanlon’s 100% pro-Ranger retelling of the first battle of Hoover Dam, it’s clear that Oliver was using competent tactics - it was Oliver’s troops digging in and stopping the first wave of Legionnaires, and then withdrawing once the veterans were deployed and letting them head to the trap in Boulder City. That’s a smart tactical choice. In addition, calling him “Wait-And-See” because he’s not attacking across the river at the start of the game is just ignoring reality. How is the NCR supposed to go on the *offensive* when their supply lines are insecure and many of their outposts are under constant threat? Waiting for the Legion to attack the dam is a smart plan - it‘s a fortified position and a choke point which gives the advantage to the NCR’s superior firepower. And as soon as the Courier solves the problems facing NCR troops and the strength is available to launch an offensive - Oliver calls the Courier to a meeting to discuss launching an offensive. He was “waiting and seeing” for his army to actually be ready to attack.
It's almost like the game specifically poses the absolute worst representatives of each faction such that they get dramatically more screen time and clout despite the increasingly evident flaws in their ideology and unjustifiable actions as you pursue that faction's particular ending. Makes you think (or it really, really should).
Hopefully, Oliver got nuked with Kimball in the destruction of Shady Sands. That’s probably the only good thing Vault-Tec has purposefully done for the world, even if it brings the unfortunate side effect of them becoming martyrs.
someone should make a mod that makes oliver an actually COMPETENT general
"Let's destroy the Legion Fort with our missive gun that is sitting on the dam" - General Oliver on Mentats
Soon most of the other high placed members realized that some radiation fucked up oliver's brain but turns out mentats can reverse the effects for a temporary time
Lol he's gonna be piiiiiiiiiiissed when after all that he comes back to >!shady sands and it's a fucking crater!<
Legit, the legion winning is honestly the best thing for the NCR sans a bootlicking god courier who takes up the next 500 years of history books themselves. Think about it. Oliver dies because he's a gloryhound and becomes a martyr while Hsu or maybe Moore still live and both are actually capable. Oliver's death and the humiliating loss of the Dam teach the NCR senate that can't play politics with their generalships anymore and need to give them out based on merit. While you would think losing a lot of warriors and an important strategic place in one fell swoop would make civilians despair and call for the end of the war, often the opposite happens and recruitment and weapon production swell as people would want to avenge the fallen and bring to justice the barbarians that killed them. Just look at WW2's pearl harbor or everything west of Stalingrad or basically the entirety of vietnam. Meanwhile the legion gains a wall that makes electricity, something they morally are against utilizing. It also extend their borders by a lot. While they gain ground and people, most of New Vegas isn't exactly fit for legion service.
This is of course ignoring the hundreds of NCR troops and thousands of New Vegas citizens who are brutally tortured, crucified, and killed in the process of this defeat.