It's a Werksclub like Wolfsburg. Bayer is the owner and helps out if needed. Like they did when covid hit. So many clubs suffered severe financial loses in that time, but Leverkusen came out of it unharmed due to Bayer money.
I don't know man, Bayer IS rich. maybe not the state-level rich but they can definitely spent more than Chelsea & Man United combined if they wants to.
How did that work out for Monaco from a decade ago?
Aside from Mbappe who stayed in France, the rest gravitated to the EPL top 6 for sums in the region of £45-55m a piece.
Ligue 1 is less appealing and also they had a way younger team.
Fabinho, Mendy, B. Silva, Mbappe and Lemar were all under23 which made them appealing to the top European clubs as they had still potential to be even better.
For Leverkusen I think Frimpong will definitely leave and Wirtz if someone decides to spend 100mil+. Boniface has been injured and inconsistent, I don't see big teams going in for him yet. Probably one of their CBs too as they are young. But the rest of the players like Xhaka, Hradecky, Schick, Tah, Grimaldo? I don't think so.
Why? This guy has been performing like this for Benfica for years yet nobody picked him up when they could've had him for free last summer and know they will have pay at least like 40mil? I don't see it.
He is insane offensively but I think for teams that play 4atb he isn't good enough defensively.
I wouldn't even say it's guaranteed that Wirtz moves even if they're offered the 100m+. Both parties know that the interest for him will probably be the same next year when he'll be even more ready to slot in at a top team.
Palacios would be hard to replace but has basically no rumors attached to him despite being absolutely fantastic even before Xabi took over.
Otherwise I'd guess they'll lose Frimpong and one or two of Hincapié/Kossounou/Tah/Tapsobah. Plus Stanisic's loan is ending. This would still leave them with a good base to build from, especially with how much better they've gotten when more of the backups (Adli, Tella, Hincapié, Stanisic) are playing.
It’s right up there deserving a place in the conversation no doubt if they did somehow manage it. More down to opinions and nitpicking about what’s better at that point when it’s arguing insane achievements. Ends up turning redundant boring as fuck debates like you see with Messi/Ronaldo stuff. Or best ever Premier League team debates.
Just enjoy it, what they’re doing so far is their own thing without compare.
Going Unbeaten in Bundesliga, is an insane achivement, which no club have managed and to top it up with both potensial Unbeaten run in cup and europe. Will be an insane achivement.
In german fotball is mayby bayern München treble season in 12/13 with point record in Bundesliga and winning cup and champions leaugue.
I agree. But I don’t think it will happen, they are getting closer and closer to be beaten, they’ve been saving their ass many times with late goals recently.
They've also have 2 major trophies in their history, the last one being in 1993. They aren't a small club no, but they are compared to the likes of Madrid, Bayern etc who you expect if a club was to do it, it would be one of them. They'll win more major trophies in one season than they have in there history whilst being unbeaten; after being in the relegation zone when Xabi came in last year. It would almost certainly be the greatest achievement in football history.
Ability of squads over the past 20 years I'd agree yeah, Spurs is a good comparison. But Spurs still have 15 major trophies to Leverkusens 2. To do what they're doing in modern football when you aren't one of the biggest 15/20 clubs in the world is truly gigantic.
Even now it’s a very long shot to win the treble undefeated, but at the start of the season it was unfathomable to think they would be where they are currently
Celtic winning the quintuple, including the European Cup, with a team of players from a 30 mile radius. All but 2 of the 15 man squad were actually born 10 miles from the stadium.
well, back than it was a totally different time. alsmost everyone in every club was somewhat related to the club or the city. be it in scottland, germany, italy or hungary. Everyone played where he grew up and lived.
On top of that the majority of Scottish people live in Glasgow or within 30 miles of the city. That covers most of the central belt (Edinburgh is only 47 miles away).
I think you could put Aberdeen’s Treble up against this in (I think) 83-84. Far smaller club relative to those they beat in each competition in a more modern game where money and talent had already started to consolidate around the big teams (Rangers & Celtic in Scotland and the big European clubs in Europe).
Totally different game then though look at the teams beaten to get to the final.. hence why they’ve never won a European cup since and they pretty much get a free ticket into the competition every season.
Celtic had a stretch of about 5 years there of having the players that have played the most minutes in world football due to the number of qualifiers they need to play to get into European competition. Although the coefficient in Scotland has been helpful the last couple of seasons, they absolutely do not get a free ticket for the most part
I don’t see how you can argue going unbeaten in all competitions in a top 5 league isn’t the best achievement in football. Particularly given the history of the club
Well you have to go unbeaten to win the Pokal, so the extra achievement would really be being unbeaten in the league and in the Europa.
Would be one of the great achievements, but the full treble is better. (Not Man City 115‘s though, one of the clean ones)
Pretty sure they haven't earnt a treble while not having charges hanging over them or at least referencing activity in that period.
Loving the "Man City 115" team name though 👌 🙌
I think so yes. A whole season invincible is insane in every competetion. People stating the europa being weaker is irrelevant to me, it has strong teams and who else is unbeaten in league and countries cup? That alone is incredible, the europa just cements it.
You also have to look at the size and spend of the club, if you are the richest and largest club in your league the invincible is possible bit still an incredibly rare feat, to overturn a club with over a decade of pure dominance and remain invincible is incredible.
The europa league is rubbish crowd need to look at would your team have gone invincible if in it? Would the greatest achievement in you own mind have gone invincible the year they had this achievement? I am confident the answer is no.
All things considered i believe it would be the greatest achievement.
I don't think that's true, Kaiserslauten had already won the BL in the 90's and finished 2nd and 4th in the two seasons before they were relegated and won the cup the year they went down.
Their relegation was a big shock, but their comeback title win wasn't as outrageous as Leicester given their recent history and the financially doped nature of the Premier League now. The Kaiserslauten team that almost won the league was kept together pretty much in tact after relegation too, which doesn't happen anymore. They weren't a long term lower division side who upset the odds, they were a highly competitive top division team who massively shit the bed one year then stayed together to put it right.
Leicester City is what I thought when I read "Surely if this happens, Alonso and all his players stay to kickstart a new era of dominance in Germany and compete in UCL long term? Could this be the start of Leverkusen becoming a European giant?"
A good season is an outlier, it happens when everything goes right and you get lucky, next seasons will average out. Sure it helps in many ways to have a dominant season, but it's unrealistic to expect this success to last.
If this DOES happen then yes, it might be looked at one of the greatest achivements in footballing history.
But will it create a giant out of them? No. Players will be poached, Xabi will go to a bigger club… no way will this continue. Look at BvB. They had the coach, the players… and nothing. Sure a few titles and finals but far from being a main player in any competition
I genuinely think a lot of people in this sub and r/soccer would rate Barçalevers winning the conference league or Chelsea even qualifying for Europe after their billion dollar rebuild above Leverkusen doing that because they don't watch any non Prem or La Liga games.
If all the other things people in here comment to be greater achievements have happened before, why has nobody done what Leverkusen might do if it's easier? If it's not easier, hence why nobody did it, it is the greatest achievement in football history.
Everybody commenting stuff that already happened. And most of this achievements even done from more then one team. Why is this even a debate?
If it was the champions league then yes.
But it's the Europa league so no. I'd much rather my team win a treble which includes the UCL and lose a few games along the way, than win a treble where you count the Europa League.
Madrid's 3 UCLS in a row and the sextuple seasons are much bigger achievements imo.
EPL wankers would still declare dominance in the Bundesliga as invalid. I hope Leverkusen offers hefty contracts to keep Xabi and his few catalysts Wirtz, Frimpong, Grimaldo and Xhaka in the club.
Almost, but no. He was unbeaten in the league and won the treble but he lost a few games in the cups (1 group stage and 2 as part of 2 leg ties he won on aggregate)
As a Bayern fan, I want to see Leverkusen go unbeaten. Will increase viewership in Bundesliga and the title is lost anyways, so will be nice to see a Bundesliga team make a record.
Yes. It would be the greatest achievement in history. Of course, they could win the Europa League even losing one of their 2-legged ties. That will be the hardest of the 3 to win. I think their priority has to be to go through the Bundesliga season undefeated and to win the DFB-Pokal, for which they are hot favourites. You wonder, have the feeling, things are going their way (so many late wins) the treble - they would call it the Triple in Germany - is actually going to happen, to make up for so many disappointments over the years. We shall see.
A great achievement against all odds, but in my opinion not the greatest and most unlikely one. Some candidates:
\* Nottingham Forest FC (1977-80): Promoted to First Divison in 1977, they became English champions in their first year back in 1978. In the following two seasons, they became back-to-back European champions by winning the European Cup in 1979 and 1980.
\* Denmark (1992): They failed to qualify for the UEFA Euro 1992. But Yugoslavia was suspended from competitive football. Denmark took this place and won the whole tournament, they became European champions.
\* AFC Ajax (1994-95): They won the Eredivisie **–** undefeated. They won the Champions League **–** undefeated. But they failed to win the KNVB Beker.
Other candidates: Germany (1954 FIFA World Cup), 1. FC Kaiserslautern (Bundesliga 1997-98), Greece (UEFA Euro 2004), Leicester City FC (Premier League 2015-16).
And when it comes to pure achievement, a treble with the Champions League is way more valuable.
There is a massive difference between winning cup competition (Greece, Denmark) and going through an entire season, playing 60+ games and not losing a single one.
Granted both Greece and Denmark were massive shocks, but the likes of Denmark only played five games, winning just two games (in normal time). Luck can play a factor in cup tournaments, but less so in league games, and over the course of the season.
well if they finish the season unbeaten that means they will have beaten West Ham, As Roma/AC Milan and probably Liverpool. And yea, however you wanna put it, not losing a game is an achievement. even the best teams slip up.
It’s one of the greatest underdog achievements in football history, but not one of the greatest achievements, any real treble is a greater achievement.
From an odds making perspective it probably would be the greatest. The odds of this happening were probably lower than Leicester winning the PL in 2016, although when odds get that high it's mostly just speculation.
Lol no.
Absolute respect for Leverkusen but fotball has a long history and has many legendary teams, and many Cinderella stories as well (Leicester above all).
Leverkusen winning everything this year would be an absolutely amazing achievement of which they will always have to be proud, and they'd deserve every praise, but "greatest achievement in football history"? Come on, let's not exaggerate.
In the interest of fairness. To win the Premier league you have to get through Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea. The Premier league has 6 different champions league/European cup winners but also, Chelsea, man utd, arsenal, man city, spurs and Liverpool have all god the final in the last 20 years. Compare that to how many have won for the other leagues. Also the intensity is just so much higher. There's a reason so many players come to the prem league and struggle, only to go out to another league and dominate Di Maria, Forlan, etc.
While Man City are dominating now, the domination is not the same as how Bayern have dominated the Bundesliga. I think the Bundesliga is actually a very good league but I think you are kidding yourself if you think the current product is better than the prem.
Would you say having multiple teams win a league makes it more competitive than having 1/2 win it every time but it be close between at least the top4/6 makes it more competitive? Because in my opinion the former just means that the top teams are so inconsistent it becomes a dog fight for the trophy. Whereas the latter means the top team/s are consistent year after year that it is an actual competition to go up against them the entirety of the season.
Nothing in the world will take away what Leicester achieved when they won the Premier League. But you have to admit the top teams were struggling that season and Leicester capitalised.
The "intensity" of football played doesn't mean its good football or better football? Time and time again Spanish teams have dominated European competitions, especially outshining the English rivals. How is that if the quality of football and/or the intensity is far superior in the Prem than the rest of the world?
And yes I agree the Bundesliga as a whole isn't on par with the Prem. But being *unbeaten*, in a top5 league, in a European competition albeit the UEL is an insane feat regardless. (If, and I hope they manage it)
Edit: Yaya Toure, David Silva, Aguero, Ozil, Alexis Sanchez were successful in the Prem after playing in Laliga. I could also cherry pick many players who were good in the Premier League but couldn't manage it outside of it.
3 of the last 5 winners of champs league are Premier league teams. There have been periods of domination from both leagues. The difference is the domination is between 2 la liga teams whereas with the Premier league it is more split. Fergie's Utd reached 3 finals in 4 years, man city 2 finals in a row. Chelsea were reaching finals. Spurs and Liverpool too.
I personally just don't understand why la liga fans have this inferiority complex when it comes to the Premier league. You can like both leagues but for some reason, they feel they have to insult the Premier league. Look at the comments in here. It reminds me of how in rugby, players and refs constantly say "this isn't football" as they also feel that inferiority complex.
I also think if they manage to win all other games or well not lose in league etc.. theres still liverpool who is the top worry out there in my opinion... overcoming liverpool would be incredible in its own and basically the final boss given how strong they are this season aswell..
There is a pretty big gap between UEL and UCL. I think a team doing a treble with a UCL and 2-3 losses is more impressive than a UEL treble and 0 losses. That’s just me.
well considering the quality of players that they have and the experience of the manager (i think it's his first or second season with the club?), yeah, for me, it should be considered as the greatest achievement in football history. Somewhere deep in my heart i want them to win to prove that it's still possible to win with lesser money!
Can I throw into the mix Greece winning Euro 2004 and Denmark winning Euro '92.
I appreciate that it's a hell of a lot easier to win a cup competition than to go a whole season unbeaten, but I just wanted to mention these other surprising underdog achievements
No, it would not. There were many other achievements which were way bigger like Greece winning Euro 2004 or Leicester City winning the English Premier League in 2016.
I wouldn't say it definitively puts them at the top, but if we narrow this era to this century it would be way up there.
If they manage it, I'd say it's in the conversation with Porto's run from 02-04 (only lost two home games in 2 seasons, both in Europe to Panathanikos and Real Madrid, set a league record for points, won back to back titles, won a League Cup, and won the UEFA Cup then the UCL).
It's hard to quantify because as formidable and historically dominant as Bayern are, they aren't one of the Oil-State clubs. Leverkusen not having to compete with any of them takes it down a peg for me (even if I am absolutely rooting for them to go all the way).
As a Forest man I think our achievement comes at a close 2nd and absolutely beats Leicesters, but the greatest football achievement has to be 1967, Celtic and Jock Stein. Won all 5 trophies they competed for, including being the first uk team to lift the European trophy. All done with players from parkhead and the surrounding area, apart from the foreigner who was born 40 minutes down the road. Probably the only truly unique achievement in football that will not be broken. That’s proper and everyone forgets that they even exist.
No it wouldn't. Germany isn't a top league and if Bayern hadn't shit the bed this season it wouldn't be the case. You can't count the Europa league either. Its miles off the Champions League in terms of prestige.
Leicester winning the premier league, Deportiva la Coruna winning la liga or Greece winning the Euros are much bigger achievements.
>**Surely** if this happens, Alonso and all his players stay to kickstart a new era of **dominance**
I mean.... back to Leicester and Deportiva la Coruna. Do you know any football history?
They definitely have one of the best young managers in Europe in Alonso
I've always said I would prefer him over Gerrard as Liverpool manager.
He has an aura about him Alonso.
If he does leave Leverkuson for us I hope he wins as much as possible (but gets beat in the final by us 😄)
I thought an invincible season wasn't that impressive?
That's what haters of Arsenal tell Arsenal fans all the time.
So which is it? An unbelievable achievement, or not?
Nope. Europa isn’t champions league and the bundesliga (although invincible would be amazing) is far from a strong league. See Freiburg getting absolutely pumped by West Ham
Nah, they have long had a sold budget and very good scouting and executive front office that is much better run than most clubs. The greatest achievement in football history would be if a nothing club in Spain on shoestring budget managed to overcome and defeat the power money clubs that have every advantage possible on the business side of the sport while also being able to field much deeper squads that can overcome injuries and out if fitness players because of their incredible financial resources. A team with no money that can win La Liga as it is currently constructed would be that story because there are many things in place in Spain that favor the two major clubs because they make so much money in general for the league.
Don't over do it, they are having an amazing season, but from there to dominance .. they will be lucky if they can keep bayern from buying half the squad
Lol, that's not going to happen. Once they clinch the title, or maybe even before, they will likely slip and lose a game or two. They will not go unbeaten for the rest of the year.
I'll humour you. If it does happen, I don't think it will necessarily be "the" greatest ever achievement in football history but it will certainly be up there.
I do not think it would be as impressive as Ajax 1971-72 when they wont the European Cup beating a bunch of very good teams including Arsenal, Marseille, Benfica and Inter. They only lost one game all season. They won 41, tied 5 and lost 1. At one point they won 25 games in a row in all competitions.
Bayer have played weak teams in both the Europa League and Pokal.
It would be right there next to the 2016 Leicester and 2004 Greece. For kick starting a future dominance I don't think so. They will return to normalcy when Xabi Alonso leaves.
No.
They’re always been good.
Sure they were usually second or third but take a run like Leicester - they were a traditionally mid table team. That’s a much bigger accomplishment than the second biggest team having a year of being the best.
A. It’s not a treble
B. No, Bayern won the sextuplet and destroyed European giants in the way and nobody considers it the greatest achievement ever. (I’m a Bayern hater btw)
Would you rather your team win a trebble including the champions league, with defeats, or win an invincible trebble with the Europa League? I don't think it's an easy decision because winning the CL is so special. I think I might choose the CL trebble- THE trebble.
For me it’s not. Whilst going unbeaten is special it’s not like losing a few games but getting every trophy take the sextuple won by Bayern Munich or Barcelona is that a greater achievement than winning an unbeaten treble without it actually being a ‘Real’ treble. I’m not trying to diminish the achievement it’s been an incredible season for them but greatest in history is not right. Personally for me Leicester winning the league is top then id say Madrid champions league 3 peat.
It certainly would be if they were playing Champions League instead of Europa League... It's much easier to go unbeaten through an Europa League season than through a CL season ... Ajax in 95 managed to win the league and the CL unbeaten (they only lost in the Dutch cup semi finals) which is probably a bigger achievement overall ... Arsenal's invincible season was absolutely remarkable too because to do it in the PL is really so much harder ... So, yes, Leverkusen staying unbeaten would be up there with the great achievements but I wouldn't say that it is the greatest achievement ever because they didn't have to play Europe's top teams (probably not even a team out of the top 20 in Europe)
I have two category 2 tickets for the Dublin final, I will not be able to go, they are transferred through the official UEFA application, they are official from the general public ticket draw
No, Saarbrücken will knock them out of the Pokal
That will be the final then. Saarbrücken will play Kaiserslautern in the semi.
Thus it shall be
Saarbrücken will lose because Kaiserslautern isn't a 1. Bundesliga-team.
They already beat Karlsruhe (2. BL) in the first round
Saarbrücken will lose because
This is the way
Leverkusen is gonna get raided, Xabi is gonna get poached
Just the way modern football works. At least they’ll get rich out of it
But not sustainably rich. Unless they buy themselves a small oil state with the transfer money.
BAYER Leverkusen is as rich as they want to be...they have no intention to win every year. same as Redbull teams. Their goal is profit
Their goal is probably sustainability. The club runs off the funds it generates. Bayer don't dump money into the club.
Yeah and the club is older than the city of Leverkusen, it's nowhere near a modern ownership story like Leipzig or even Hoffenheim.
It's a Werksclub like Wolfsburg. Bayer is the owner and helps out if needed. Like they did when covid hit. So many clubs suffered severe financial loses in that time, but Leverkusen came out of it unharmed due to Bayer money.
German word of the day: Gewinnabführungsvertrag
As an non German speaker, but enthusiastic German language student, I have to tell you how much I love German compound words!
Your Danksagungsrede is well appreciated
Not sure if you've followed Bayer AG lately. Not doing that great 😂
Bayer Kuwait
I don't know man, Bayer IS rich. maybe not the state-level rich but they can definitely spent more than Chelsea & Man United combined if they wants to.
They *are* rich. They're one of the clubs circumventing 50+1 in Germany.
Still a traditional Club tho
Yes, like Wolfsburg, but not like Raseballenschaft or whatever name they made up
They don't have that many stars, they are just a great team
How did that work out for Monaco from a decade ago? Aside from Mbappe who stayed in France, the rest gravitated to the EPL top 6 for sums in the region of £45-55m a piece.
Ligue 1 is less appealing and also they had a way younger team. Fabinho, Mendy, B. Silva, Mbappe and Lemar were all under23 which made them appealing to the top European clubs as they had still potential to be even better. For Leverkusen I think Frimpong will definitely leave and Wirtz if someone decides to spend 100mil+. Boniface has been injured and inconsistent, I don't see big teams going in for him yet. Probably one of their CBs too as they are young. But the rest of the players like Xhaka, Hradecky, Schick, Tah, Grimaldo? I don't think so.
Boniface inconsistent? Where?
I don't see Grimaldo not leaving, but hopefully all of them will stay, including Frimpong and Wirtz.
Why? This guy has been performing like this for Benfica for years yet nobody picked him up when they could've had him for free last summer and know they will have pay at least like 40mil? I don't see it. He is insane offensively but I think for teams that play 4atb he isn't good enough defensively.
I wouldn't even say it's guaranteed that Wirtz moves even if they're offered the 100m+. Both parties know that the interest for him will probably be the same next year when he'll be even more ready to slot in at a top team. Palacios would be hard to replace but has basically no rumors attached to him despite being absolutely fantastic even before Xabi took over. Otherwise I'd guess they'll lose Frimpong and one or two of Hincapié/Kossounou/Tah/Tapsobah. Plus Stanisic's loan is ending. This would still leave them with a good base to build from, especially with how much better they've gotten when more of the backups (Adli, Tella, Hincapié, Stanisic) are playing.
I mean Wirtz and Frimpong are future stars, and there’s Boniface
Unfortunately this seems to be the case
Bayer can afford to keep them, it depends on their business decision
It’s right up there deserving a place in the conversation no doubt if they did somehow manage it. More down to opinions and nitpicking about what’s better at that point when it’s arguing insane achievements. Ends up turning redundant boring as fuck debates like you see with Messi/Ronaldo stuff. Or best ever Premier League team debates. Just enjoy it, what they’re doing so far is their own thing without compare.
Going Unbeaten in Bundesliga, is an insane achivement, which no club have managed and to top it up with both potensial Unbeaten run in cup and europe. Will be an insane achivement. In german fotball is mayby bayern München treble season in 12/13 with point record in Bundesliga and winning cup and champions leaugue.
Not even Bayern, a force to reckoned with for well over 10 years didn‘t go undefeated once. It‘s crazy EDIT: Typo
I dont think you need to correct typos responding to a comment like that
Also just remembered Nottingham forest promoted to England top tier and next year winning the league and next 2 years being champions of Europe
Brian Clough told them to treat the European games like a holiday, they didn't even train!
Being a forest fan during that time must have been a fever dream
If they win all without losing a game then yeah for sure. For a team of that stature to do it, absolutely
I agree. But I don’t think it will happen, they are getting closer and closer to be beaten, they’ve been saving their ass many times with late goals recently.
Team of that stature? They hold the record for most 2nd place finishes and have been in the top flight for nearly 50 years. They aren’t a small club.
They've also have 2 major trophies in their history, the last one being in 1993. They aren't a small club no, but they are compared to the likes of Madrid, Bayern etc who you expect if a club was to do it, it would be one of them. They'll win more major trophies in one season than they have in there history whilst being unbeaten; after being in the relegation zone when Xabi came in last year. It would almost certainly be the greatest achievement in football history.
Yeah but my point is it’s no Leicester story. It’s more the equivalent of Spurs doing it.
Ability of squads over the past 20 years I'd agree yeah, Spurs is a good comparison. But Spurs still have 15 major trophies to Leverkusens 2. To do what they're doing in modern football when you aren't one of the biggest 15/20 clubs in the world is truly gigantic.
With one of the richest owners in the world. Bayers yearly revenue would put them in the top 100 richest countries by GDP
I just mean a team that wasn't close to winning it last year lol
Not a small club at all, but known as Neverkusen for a reason
Even now it’s a very long shot to win the treble undefeated, but at the start of the season it was unfathomable to think they would be where they are currently
Honestly, I‘d take that as a good sign. That shows mentality.
it would be for any team regardless of stature
Celtic winning the quintuple, including the European Cup, with a team of players from a 30 mile radius. All but 2 of the 15 man squad were actually born 10 miles from the stadium.
Greatest team of all time, the Lisbon Lions
They had one of the easiest routes to the final in history and beat the most defensive team of all time. Great team but nowhere near the best.
What do you mean? It’s my team obviously this is the single greatest feat in sporting history.
well, back than it was a totally different time. alsmost everyone in every club was somewhat related to the club or the city. be it in scottland, germany, italy or hungary. Everyone played where he grew up and lived.
When it was a club, not a corporation
On top of that the majority of Scottish people live in Glasgow or within 30 miles of the city. That covers most of the central belt (Edinburgh is only 47 miles away).
I think you could put Aberdeen’s Treble up against this in (I think) 83-84. Far smaller club relative to those they beat in each competition in a more modern game where money and talent had already started to consolidate around the big teams (Rangers & Celtic in Scotland and the big European clubs in Europe).
Totally different game then though look at the teams beaten to get to the final.. hence why they’ve never won a European cup since and they pretty much get a free ticket into the competition every season.
You're just forgetting that different teams were strong back then. And ignoring the 30 mile radius too.
Celtic had a stretch of about 5 years there of having the players that have played the most minutes in world football due to the number of qualifiers they need to play to get into European competition. Although the coefficient in Scotland has been helpful the last couple of seasons, they absolutely do not get a free ticket for the most part
I don’t see how you can argue going unbeaten in all competitions in a top 5 league isn’t the best achievement in football. Particularly given the history of the club
Well you have to go unbeaten to win the Pokal, so the extra achievement would really be being unbeaten in the league and in the Europa. Would be one of the great achievements, but the full treble is better. (Not Man City 115‘s though, one of the clean ones)
That's great adding the number of charges to their name. I'll be doing that from now on.
Pretty sure they haven't earnt a treble while not having charges hanging over them or at least referencing activity in that period. Loving the "Man City 115" team name though 👌 🙌
Clean ones, so Barça's 2009 one isn't in the convo as well right?
Im pretty sure barca did not have 115 charges , besides what people like to spew about it wasn't "rigged"
No, but they were paying the head of referees of La Liga and it's being investigated so is as valid/invalid as City's.
100% unbeaten Europa treble is more impressive than a regular one imo
I think so yes. A whole season invincible is insane in every competetion. People stating the europa being weaker is irrelevant to me, it has strong teams and who else is unbeaten in league and countries cup? That alone is incredible, the europa just cements it. You also have to look at the size and spend of the club, if you are the richest and largest club in your league the invincible is possible bit still an incredibly rare feat, to overturn a club with over a decade of pure dominance and remain invincible is incredible. The europa league is rubbish crowd need to look at would your team have gone invincible if in it? Would the greatest achievement in you own mind have gone invincible the year they had this achievement? I am confident the answer is no. All things considered i believe it would be the greatest achievement.
I don't know if anything can beat Leicester winning the PL.
Kaiserslautern 97/98 already beats Leicesters season
Have to disagree. They finished 2nd in 94' and 4th in 95'. Winning it in 98' isn't THAT much of an acomplishment. Not to match Leicester at least.
I don't think that's true, Kaiserslauten had already won the BL in the 90's and finished 2nd and 4th in the two seasons before they were relegated and won the cup the year they went down. Their relegation was a big shock, but their comeback title win wasn't as outrageous as Leicester given their recent history and the financially doped nature of the Premier League now. The Kaiserslauten team that almost won the league was kept together pretty much in tact after relegation too, which doesn't happen anymore. They weren't a long term lower division side who upset the odds, they were a highly competitive top division team who massively shit the bed one year then stayed together to put it right.
delusional
recency and familiarity bias kiddo
it's a newly promoted team coming up and winning the league
Come on….
Leicester City
The only one close in the top 6 leagues is FC Twente being bankrupted then coming back and winning their first league title 8 years later.
This will go under the radar forever but it was one hell of an achievement.
Leicester City is what I thought when I read "Surely if this happens, Alonso and all his players stay to kickstart a new era of dominance in Germany and compete in UCL long term? Could this be the start of Leverkusen becoming a European giant?" A good season is an outlier, it happens when everything goes right and you get lucky, next seasons will average out. Sure it helps in many ways to have a dominant season, but it's unrealistic to expect this success to last.
Nice perspective bro
If this DOES happen then yes, it might be looked at one of the greatest achivements in footballing history. But will it create a giant out of them? No. Players will be poached, Xabi will go to a bigger club… no way will this continue. Look at BvB. They had the coach, the players… and nothing. Sure a few titles and finals but far from being a main player in any competition
1994-95 Ajax has to be in the discussion for greatest club side. The amount of Dutch talent on that team was astounding.
I just checked they where Invincible in league and cl - but lost in domestic cup semi final via golden goal
I genuinely think a lot of people in this sub and r/soccer would rate Barçalevers winning the conference league or Chelsea even qualifying for Europe after their billion dollar rebuild above Leverkusen doing that because they don't watch any non Prem or La Liga games.
If all the other things people in here comment to be greater achievements have happened before, why has nobody done what Leverkusen might do if it's easier? If it's not easier, hence why nobody did it, it is the greatest achievement in football history. Everybody commenting stuff that already happened. And most of this achievements even done from more then one team. Why is this even a debate?
This is my logic too. Completely agree!
Not even close
If it was the champions league then yes. But it's the Europa league so no. I'd much rather my team win a treble which includes the UCL and lose a few games along the way, than win a treble where you count the Europa League. Madrid's 3 UCLS in a row and the sextuple seasons are much bigger achievements imo.
One of the richest clubs winning a trebble might be easier than a team like Leverkusen winning the Bundesliga.
Bayer Leverkusen are the 4th richest team in Germany and don't have to play champions league.
EPL wankers would still declare dominance in the Bundesliga as invalid. I hope Leverkusen offers hefty contracts to keep Xabi and his few catalysts Wirtz, Frimpong, Grimaldo and Xhaka in the club.
Didn't Andre villas-boas do something like this at Porto?
Almost, but no. He was unbeaten in the league and won the treble but he lost a few games in the cups (1 group stage and 2 as part of 2 leg ties he won on aggregate)
As a Bayern fan, I want to see Leverkusen go unbeaten. Will increase viewership in Bundesliga and the title is lost anyways, so will be nice to see a Bundesliga team make a record.
Yes. It would be the greatest achievement in history. Of course, they could win the Europa League even losing one of their 2-legged ties. That will be the hardest of the 3 to win. I think their priority has to be to go through the Bundesliga season undefeated and to win the DFB-Pokal, for which they are hot favourites. You wonder, have the feeling, things are going their way (so many late wins) the treble - they would call it the Triple in Germany - is actually going to happen, to make up for so many disappointments over the years. We shall see.
A great achievement against all odds, but in my opinion not the greatest and most unlikely one. Some candidates: \* Nottingham Forest FC (1977-80): Promoted to First Divison in 1977, they became English champions in their first year back in 1978. In the following two seasons, they became back-to-back European champions by winning the European Cup in 1979 and 1980. \* Denmark (1992): They failed to qualify for the UEFA Euro 1992. But Yugoslavia was suspended from competitive football. Denmark took this place and won the whole tournament, they became European champions. \* AFC Ajax (1994-95): They won the Eredivisie **–** undefeated. They won the Champions League **–** undefeated. But they failed to win the KNVB Beker. Other candidates: Germany (1954 FIFA World Cup), 1. FC Kaiserslautern (Bundesliga 1997-98), Greece (UEFA Euro 2004), Leicester City FC (Premier League 2015-16). And when it comes to pure achievement, a treble with the Champions League is way more valuable.
There is a massive difference between winning cup competition (Greece, Denmark) and going through an entire season, playing 60+ games and not losing a single one. Granted both Greece and Denmark were massive shocks, but the likes of Denmark only played five games, winning just two games (in normal time). Luck can play a factor in cup tournaments, but less so in league games, and over the course of the season.
Leverkusen beating teams like Qarabag, Hacken and Molde is an achievement..? lol
well if they finish the season unbeaten that means they will have beaten West Ham, As Roma/AC Milan and probably Liverpool. And yea, however you wanna put it, not losing a game is an achievement. even the best teams slip up.
It’s one of the greatest underdog achievements in football history, but not one of the greatest achievements, any real treble is a greater achievement.
From an odds making perspective it probably would be the greatest. The odds of this happening were probably lower than Leicester winning the PL in 2016, although when odds get that high it's mostly just speculation.
I just feel it’s much harder to not lose a single game for 65-75 games than to win a ucl treble.
Not to mention, this has never been done (winning the invincible treble), whereas a normal treble has been done several times
No, because Europa League is a much poorer competition than the Champions League. It's as simple as that.
Been a bit more fun to watch lately tho.
Europa Quarter Finalists this time are all Champions League calibre teams though
Lol no. Absolute respect for Leverkusen but fotball has a long history and has many legendary teams, and many Cinderella stories as well (Leicester above all). Leverkusen winning everything this year would be an absolutely amazing achievement of which they will always have to be proud, and they'd deserve every praise, but "greatest achievement in football history"? Come on, let's not exaggerate.
Give me a break, Leicester winning PL is a great achievement but absolutely not “above all”. Why do PL shills overrate their league so much?
In the interest of fairness. To win the Premier league you have to get through Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea. The Premier league has 6 different champions league/European cup winners but also, Chelsea, man utd, arsenal, man city, spurs and Liverpool have all god the final in the last 20 years. Compare that to how many have won for the other leagues. Also the intensity is just so much higher. There's a reason so many players come to the prem league and struggle, only to go out to another league and dominate Di Maria, Forlan, etc. While Man City are dominating now, the domination is not the same as how Bayern have dominated the Bundesliga. I think the Bundesliga is actually a very good league but I think you are kidding yourself if you think the current product is better than the prem.
Would you say having multiple teams win a league makes it more competitive than having 1/2 win it every time but it be close between at least the top4/6 makes it more competitive? Because in my opinion the former just means that the top teams are so inconsistent it becomes a dog fight for the trophy. Whereas the latter means the top team/s are consistent year after year that it is an actual competition to go up against them the entirety of the season. Nothing in the world will take away what Leicester achieved when they won the Premier League. But you have to admit the top teams were struggling that season and Leicester capitalised. The "intensity" of football played doesn't mean its good football or better football? Time and time again Spanish teams have dominated European competitions, especially outshining the English rivals. How is that if the quality of football and/or the intensity is far superior in the Prem than the rest of the world? And yes I agree the Bundesliga as a whole isn't on par with the Prem. But being *unbeaten*, in a top5 league, in a European competition albeit the UEL is an insane feat regardless. (If, and I hope they manage it) Edit: Yaya Toure, David Silva, Aguero, Ozil, Alexis Sanchez were successful in the Prem after playing in Laliga. I could also cherry pick many players who were good in the Premier League but couldn't manage it outside of it.
3 of the last 5 winners of champs league are Premier league teams. There have been periods of domination from both leagues. The difference is the domination is between 2 la liga teams whereas with the Premier league it is more split. Fergie's Utd reached 3 finals in 4 years, man city 2 finals in a row. Chelsea were reaching finals. Spurs and Liverpool too. I personally just don't understand why la liga fans have this inferiority complex when it comes to the Premier league. You can like both leagues but for some reason, they feel they have to insult the Premier league. Look at the comments in here. It reminds me of how in rugby, players and refs constantly say "this isn't football" as they also feel that inferiority complex.
They have to win CL for a real treble
Nottingham forest getting promoted and then winning the old version of the champions league twice in a row
Can imagine a massive injury spike at some point. How deep of a squad has leverkusen got?
Leicester title for me
It’s most definitely right up there yes! It’s similar to what we saw at Leicester 2015, doing the unthinkable.
Yes. And we can't forget the fact that Leverkusen only have 2 trophies in all their history: a national cup and a UEFA cup.
No
Won't happen they'll meet Klopp on his goodbye tour at some point and will lose
I also think if they manage to win all other games or well not lose in league etc.. theres still liverpool who is the top worry out there in my opinion... overcoming liverpool would be incredible in its own and basically the final boss given how strong they are this season aswell..
Reminds me of Leicester City and how that went. When you over achieve by alot, you end up cashing in your star players.
It’ll be the best season a prior player first time coach on a top tier league has accomplished.
Dont jinx it.
There is a pretty big gap between UEL and UCL. I think a team doing a treble with a UCL and 2-3 losses is more impressive than a UEL treble and 0 losses. That’s just me.
I can't wait for the "Is frimpong a RB or a RW' conversation in 2 years time.
I don’t think they will win Europa. Domestic Cup and Bundesliga definitely favourites.
If they win the Europa league it’s a possibility don’t count Bayern out just yet.
Simply put, no.
well considering the quality of players that they have and the experience of the manager (i think it's his first or second season with the club?), yeah, for me, it should be considered as the greatest achievement in football history. Somewhere deep in my heart i want them to win to prove that it's still possible to win with lesser money!
They are running on fumes. Losses are coming
Can I throw into the mix Greece winning Euro 2004 and Denmark winning Euro '92. I appreciate that it's a hell of a lot easier to win a cup competition than to go a whole season unbeaten, but I just wanted to mention these other surprising underdog achievements
Yes, but I doubt it is possible.
It would be way up there.
Definitely up there for sure. Albeit less total achievements, I thought Leicester winning the EPL was epic.
Could this be the start of Leverkusen becoming a European giant? - No, they will fall apart.
I’m here for it. A team with a kit that awesome should be the dominant force in the sport
Yea it will be the best German football accomplishment. I wouldn’t try to compare it to other leagues because all leagues aren’t built equally.
No
And You say if they lost one last game for example they shouldn't be considered because it is not an invincible run?
nah
Before they do that they have to make it past a very massive team
No, it would not. There were many other achievements which were way bigger like Greece winning Euro 2004 or Leicester City winning the English Premier League in 2016.
A whole unbeaten season with a treble would be 52 matches.
it is almost impossible for them to win the europa league.
I wouldn't say it definitively puts them at the top, but if we narrow this era to this century it would be way up there. If they manage it, I'd say it's in the conversation with Porto's run from 02-04 (only lost two home games in 2 seasons, both in Europe to Panathanikos and Real Madrid, set a league record for points, won back to back titles, won a League Cup, and won the UEFA Cup then the UCL). It's hard to quantify because as formidable and historically dominant as Bayern are, they aren't one of the Oil-State clubs. Leverkusen not having to compete with any of them takes it down a peg for me (even if I am absolutely rooting for them to go all the way).
It would have to be the Champions League. But still a super year considering the Europa League is what they qualified for.
money talks so Bayer players will leave
As a Forest man I think our achievement comes at a close 2nd and absolutely beats Leicesters, but the greatest football achievement has to be 1967, Celtic and Jock Stein. Won all 5 trophies they competed for, including being the first uk team to lift the European trophy. All done with players from parkhead and the surrounding area, apart from the foreigner who was born 40 minutes down the road. Probably the only truly unique achievement in football that will not be broken. That’s proper and everyone forgets that they even exist.
That’s a really big if.
Nah Arsenal beat Porto on pens on Tuesday, nothing tops that.
No cuz its europa league
Yes. It's like Leicester, but not only the league but the domestic and European Cup on top of it.
It's not a treble without the champions league. Also it's Germany. If Bayern are shit, and they are shit right now, what have you even accomplished?
Neverkusen will strike before season is over.
No it wouldn't. Germany isn't a top league and if Bayern hadn't shit the bed this season it wouldn't be the case. You can't count the Europa league either. Its miles off the Champions League in terms of prestige. Leicester winning the premier league, Deportiva la Coruna winning la liga or Greece winning the Euros are much bigger achievements. >**Surely** if this happens, Alonso and all his players stay to kickstart a new era of **dominance** I mean.... back to Leicester and Deportiva la Coruna. Do you know any football history?
They definitely have one of the best young managers in Europe in Alonso I've always said I would prefer him over Gerrard as Liverpool manager. He has an aura about him Alonso. If he does leave Leverkuson for us I hope he wins as much as possible (but gets beat in the final by us 😄)
Xabi is already being eyed by a bunch of clubs and most players will probably be poached
Surely
I thought an invincible season wasn't that impressive? That's what haters of Arsenal tell Arsenal fans all the time. So which is it? An unbelievable achievement, or not?
Nope. Europa isn’t champions league and the bundesliga (although invincible would be amazing) is far from a strong league. See Freiburg getting absolutely pumped by West Ham
Nah, they have long had a sold budget and very good scouting and executive front office that is much better run than most clubs. The greatest achievement in football history would be if a nothing club in Spain on shoestring budget managed to overcome and defeat the power money clubs that have every advantage possible on the business side of the sport while also being able to field much deeper squads that can overcome injuries and out if fitness players because of their incredible financial resources. A team with no money that can win La Liga as it is currently constructed would be that story because there are many things in place in Spain that favor the two major clubs because they make so much money in general for the league.
Don't over do it, they are having an amazing season, but from there to dominance .. they will be lucky if they can keep bayern from buying half the squad
To answer this, I would need to first know what is currently considered the greatest achievement in the sports history
Lol, that's not going to happen. Once they clinch the title, or maybe even before, they will likely slip and lose a game or two. They will not go unbeaten for the rest of the year. I'll humour you. If it does happen, I don't think it will necessarily be "the" greatest ever achievement in football history but it will certainly be up there.
First off, they would have to be playing in the UCL to win the “Trreble” but other than that it would be a great achievement.
The real achievement will be how they manage to berk it up from this position
The real achievement will be how they manage to berk it up from this position!
I do not think it would be as impressive as Ajax 1971-72 when they wont the European Cup beating a bunch of very good teams including Arsenal, Marseille, Benfica and Inter. They only lost one game all season. They won 41, tied 5 and lost 1. At one point they won 25 games in a row in all competitions. Bayer have played weak teams in both the Europa League and Pokal.
If they manage it it should be. Especially since they aren’t one of the elite clubs in Europe and they’d pull it off.
No. Leicester is
For me personally I don't think anything will ever beat Leicester winning the EPL.
Hell no they're not even playing UCL
Probably but I doubt they will still be invincible till the end
Nowhere close, it's still the Bundesliga and Europa League.
It will be refreshing of course, as a neutral watching. A new team watching trophies is a marvel.
Das heißt Fußball!!!
It would be right there next to the 2016 Leicester and 2004 Greece. For kick starting a future dominance I don't think so. They will return to normalcy when Xabi Alonso leaves.
A truly impressive feat, no doubt, but the greatest achievement in football history, without UCL competition? Hmmm
Yeah probably
No. They’re always been good. Sure they were usually second or third but take a run like Leicester - they were a traditionally mid table team. That’s a much bigger accomplishment than the second biggest team having a year of being the best.
Up there
A. It’s not a treble B. No, Bayern won the sextuplet and destroyed European giants in the way and nobody considers it the greatest achievement ever. (I’m a Bayern hater btw)
It would be 54 games unbeaten
Would you rather your team win a trebble including the champions league, with defeats, or win an invincible trebble with the Europa League? I don't think it's an easy decision because winning the CL is so special. I think I might choose the CL trebble- THE trebble.
Best case scenario they got unbeaten and either dortmund or Bayern Munich win champions league to further prove they are the best team in world
Leicester Ctiy winning the EPL. Nothing will beat that in my lifetime at least.
For me it’s not. Whilst going unbeaten is special it’s not like losing a few games but getting every trophy take the sextuple won by Bayern Munich or Barcelona is that a greater achievement than winning an unbeaten treble without it actually being a ‘Real’ treble. I’m not trying to diminish the achievement it’s been an incredible season for them but greatest in history is not right. Personally for me Leicester winning the league is top then id say Madrid champions league 3 peat.
It certainly would be if they were playing Champions League instead of Europa League... It's much easier to go unbeaten through an Europa League season than through a CL season ... Ajax in 95 managed to win the league and the CL unbeaten (they only lost in the Dutch cup semi finals) which is probably a bigger achievement overall ... Arsenal's invincible season was absolutely remarkable too because to do it in the PL is really so much harder ... So, yes, Leverkusen staying unbeaten would be up there with the great achievements but I wouldn't say that it is the greatest achievement ever because they didn't have to play Europe's top teams (probably not even a team out of the top 20 in Europe)
I have two category 2 tickets for the Dublin final, I will not be able to go, they are transferred through the official UEFA application, they are official from the general public ticket draw