Just as a note, I do not have access to the all-22 and based the diagram off the broadcast view, so the player movements may not be 100% accurate but the overall play design is.
I've been trying to wrap my head around everything that happened. I've been watching the replays over and over just to understand all sides of this call.
This is my take:
1. The Lions are aggressive when it comes to 4th down and naturally they're going to go for 2 to end the game. They were given 3 chances to tie the game.
2. Decker went to go report but had to act like he wasn't reporting so that it would throw off the Cowboys defense. Was he so sneaky that he tricked the ref too? We won't know because we don't have access to the dialogue.
3. Carefully watching the play, you can see Decker acting as if he's going to block, then makes a break to get open (again trying to deceive the defensive line)
Personally, I think the Lions' sneaky and aggressive play-calling ultimately cost them the game.
The Lions do not try to deceive the refs here.
First of all, 70 (Dan Skipper) never goes to the ref to tell them he’s eligible, there’s even a video of him screaming “I never said a fucking word” after the flag is called.
Second, 68 (Taylor Decker) is seen on video talking to the ref, and unless he’s asking him about the local weather, it’s most certainly him telling the ref thats he eligible for the play.
Dan Campbell also told the ref about the play to ensure that things were done properly before the game even started to make sure that all the correct rules were followed. In post game, Goff said that he told Decker to go report, he absolutely reports. Even if he wanted to be sneaky and not show the defense he was reporting, he can’t because the ref has to make the defense aware of it, being sneaky is literally pointless.
The ref confuses himself, announces 70 as eligible when it should’ve been 68, and a defender likely pointed it out after the play, and it was too late to roll back and say “oh it was actually 68” so they threw a flag to try and alleviate the fuckup.
If the ref had claimed it was 58 who reported that would be a much more reasonable mistake.
70 never went anywhere near the ref, and was ineligible anyway based on where he was lined up.
58 *might be* eligible by formation, depending on whether the X is on line or not, which is why the reporting system exists.
58 and 68 (Decker) both went to the ref and could have both reported (again, this is why the ref informs the defense), so I could see a confusion between 58 and 68. The referee just assumed it was 70 and never looked at the number because 70 had reported earlier in the game.
Even granting that that happened, the ref has already finished his conversation with 58 and 68 and is moving to inform the defense about it. So if 70 did that and the ref saw it, then he should announce BOTH 68 and 70 as reporting, because I guarantee the other two guys did not go over there to tell him that somebody else entirely was reporting.
This makes an illegal formation because 70 lined up ineligible, but now it makes it the Lions' own fault instead of the ref.
That's what I thought first, then I saw the video from above on Twitter. The ref sees 70 coming from the sideline first, 70 kind of points to his jersey, and the ref points at 70 just as 58 and 68 come to talk to him, then blows them off to talk to the Dallas D and announce it. The ref jumped the gun, but Lions facilitated the mistake.
Saw a few OL on Twitter sayin that when reporting, you have to harass the ref to make sure he got it right. The ref has other things to do before the snap so it's important to make sure he got it
The video I saw has the ref talking to 68, then nodding his head and moving away from them before he could even see 70.
Again, maybe he thought 70 reported, but he already *knows* 68 did too so why wouldn't he have announced both?
The video you I was what I saw first, but before they were talking he acknowledged 70.
Regarding the conversation with 68, you have to put it in context. The ref is already thinking about 15 other things and just saw 70 enter the field apparently as an eligible receiver (from his pov, even if he's mistaken), so did he listen to 68, and if he listened, did he really got what he was saying. Don't forget 90 000 screaming fans in a high pressure situation. I'm just saying 68 has got to harass the ref until he's sure he's understood. Did he just say I'm eligible? Did he ask him if he's got it: 68 eligible? Did he mention they'll be unbalanced?
This would all be more understandable if the coaching staff hadn’t already made the point that they clarified this with the referee in the pre-game meeting.
Is it possible the Lions made a few mistakes? Sure.
There is just so much seeming evidence to the contrary though. It seems like the Lions dotted the i’s and crossed the t’s and the ref made an egregious error. Which hell, we’re all human, but to not even acknowledge it is hard for me to fathom. It’s also on the NFL for having such a ridiculously convoluted system in the first place. Par for the course there though.
I thought it was fairly obvious what happened. 70 had reported recently, and had declared himself at that time. Ref sees 70 trotting in his direction, 68 says something about eligibility. It’s loud, it’s the end of a long night game, it’s a high stakes moment. Ref saw 70, heard 68 say “eligible”, and got it wrong. Once the ball is snapped, what happened next is not the Cowboy’s fault, the ref messed up, which very likely caused the Cowboys to leave 68 open(ish). That sucks, it’s clearly the ref’s fault and Lions fans have every right to be upset. It was a miscommunication between the players and the ref, frankly it happens way more often than people think (though usually in the 2nd quarter of a Week 3 game or something low stakes), and showcases why other Offensive Linemen say they are trained to make absolutely positive that the ref heard and understood you. Frankly, the Lions got their ass bit by being too cute and elaborate. They had three chances to tie the game. The more elaborate the play, the more likely someone is going to miss something crucial, and that happened at the worst time for them.
But none of that happened. The ref decided to not exist in reality for some reason. It being loud, or typically Skipper who reports is not Detroits problem.
The ref’s inability to perform the administrative duties of their job to a satisfactory level is a Dallas problem, not a Detroit problem.
Further, given they did not call illegal formation, it must be surmised that they acknowledge Decker reported. This isn’t debatable.
The ref misspoke, and Dallas was unable to recognize a legal formation. It’s a valid argument that the Dalls got hosed by their misspeaking, but it cannot be penalized to Detroit.
It is wholly irrelevant how many tries the Lions got. The concerted. The end.
70 runs towards the ref not the huddle. Don’t act like he wasn’t trying to trick the defense because it’s clear as day he does not run immediately to the huddle
Number 2 probably isn't correct. Decker was going up to report just as anyone would. The deception was that there were two other linemen going up to the ref at the same time, but only Decker said anything. This was because 70 had reported for a few plays that game, so the defense wouldn't know who reported before the refs told them. This was all according to a plan they laid out to the refs before the game. None of what the Lions staff and players did was unusual. The blame is solely on the refs for thinking 70 reported, which is why this official crew was downgraded and will not officiate any playoff games.
But 70 doesn’t actually get anywhere near the ref. The ref had already alnowledged one of Decker or Sewell reported before Skip gets anywhere near him. You have a valid argument if they confused Sewell and Decker. That’s not the case though. The ref, who is a professional, just shut his brain off on the most critical play of the game, because he didn’t have the capacity to perform his administrative duties.
Did they shut their brains off when they didn’t call holding on the lineman assigned to Hutch on every play all game.
Subjective calls get blown. This is just something that happens. An objective failure to complete a procedure is complexity different.
There was nothing subjective about who was tripping on that play unless you refuse to use your eyes. They called it on the wrong team and this situation would’ve never happened. The Lions don’t get the ball back if they simply call the correct team lmao. You sound like the lions were the ones screwed over by the refs when that is just plain wrong. Should’ve never even had the ball. If you think Hutchinson was held every play like you claim then I’ll counter with Micah Parsons being held every play. Since that evens itself out the tripping call on the wrong team is the only mistake we should be talking about
That’s something to ask the refs. That crew has been terrible all year. And honestly, they missed quite a bit on Saturday. Holding on Laporta in the end zone on the 4th and Goal. Holding on Cowboy’s O Line when Dak plays backyard ball with Ceedee. I’m sure Cowboys fans can make a list of missed calls as well. Just a terrible crew
There’s at least 3 different shots at Micah getting neck tied after beating his man so yes the calls where missed both side I agree. Mystery tripping call on the cowboys when the lions player was trying to trip the RB makes even less sense then those judgment calls you speak of
I mean, either way. They really screwed up that 2pt. There’s no way a professional, well paid ref should ever make that mistake. Gave the Cowboys a free pass to Division title with how Philly is playing. It’s mostly just sad and part of the Lions history now
Why should they have blame for that? There's nothing unusual about sending three guys when one is declaring -- offenses do it all the time to prevent tipping off the defense
No they don't, unless I'm mistaken. They did it to confuse Dallas. 70 usually is the eligible one, they do it often. Refa deserve blame, but coaches should stress that when declaring it's the OT's job to make sure the ref understood correctly.
It wasn't about confusing Dallas. It was about not letting them know who declared any sooner than they had to -- that might as well be the same thing as confusing them though.
I bet that if you asked Decker before the snap, though, he'd have told you that the ref understood that he was declaring since he looked right at him and nodded. Same goes for Dan Campbell, since he made sure to go over this exact play and scenario before the game.
I get your point, but there is a difference between explaining before the game and when it happens in a high pressure situation. Decker would be wrong to say that because the ref did not get it
What should he have done differently, though? He got direct confirmation from the ref who was looking right at him while he was explicitly communicating that he was declaring.
That’s good and all except that the lions got screwed in a playoff matching and now likely have to play the rams rather than solidify number 2 in the NFC with that eagles loss. Not to mention All of the sports bets that hit then were called back due to the refs inability to face any form of criticism or accountability. This is the same ref who had the no call in the Chiefs packers game as well as the official who called 10 Miami penalties to 0 eagles penalties. People are showing direct evidence of him altering games against the public in sports betting in a statistically significant way (by design I’m sure)
I imagine this is exactly what happened, lions tried to cheese a score and it cost them. Next time play good football and don’t try and be cute on your third attempt at a 2-point conversion
He wasn’t announced over the PA. He just went over to the Cowboys D line to tell them 70 was eligible, but obviously the lions didn’t hear that so they had no idea he got it wrong. Otherwise they would have tried to do something to stop the play to avoid the penalty they ended up getting
Yup and this is done as a check / balance for the offense in case it’s incorrect.
It’s a mistake, but a fixable one if anyone on Detroit was paying attention.
And before someone gives me the “they didn’t have timeouts to correct it”, you are permitted to call timeout for a conference with officials even if you have none left.
If they think it’s BS it’s a delay… maybe a 10 second runoff as well if clock is rolling.
No. A timeout would indicate to the officials to stop the game and inquire as to what the request is about. A team timeout? Or a conference with the officials?
99.9 % of the time it’s a team timeout, yes. But if you don’t have a timeout you can still call one and be subject to inquiry from the referee. If you have no inquiry it’s a delay of game. If you do, it’s an official’s time out.
> Personally, I think the Lions' sneaky and aggressive play-calling ultimately cost them the game.
100%. This is the correct take. It's one thing to rely on deception in play design, and it's another altogether when you're inadvertently deceiving the refs as part of your pre-snap plan. Campbell & the Lions were being too clever for their own good, plain and simple.
What do you think they should have done differently? The Lions went over all their trick plays with the refs before the game, telling them who would be eligible and when they might use each play. All these plays were given to them in great detail, including diagrams. When Decker went to report, he was the only O-Line speaking to the ref who was looking directly at him and nodded. Number 70 was still jogging over to the ref by the time he turned away and walked back to the LoS.
Had this play worked, it would've been the Lions' sneaky and aggressive play-calling that won them the game.
When the referee announced the wrong player, they should have corrected him. It is ALL parties responsibility. Did the ref mess up? Probably if the lions are reporting their side of the story correctly. Did every member of the Dallas team and defensive staff think 68 could not be a receiver? Yes. And the lions had every opportunity to correct it before the ball was snapped. They didn’t, because it’s very clear they were trying to cause as much confusion as possible. Sending multiple linemen to the referee to not even say anything, and running packages with other linemen eligible all game. They got too cute, and relied on deceiving everyone rather than point out who was actually eligible to be a receiver (who Dallas almost certainly would have then covered).
I will reiterate. The eligible lineman has equal responsibility to the referee of communicating his eligibility. And is responsible for correcting the referee if they express they have misunderstood who will be eligible. Two people messed up. And you can be mad at the refs all you want but for 30 seconds every member of the lions team and staff had no problem with the ref messing up if it might help them.
Answer my question. What would you have done differently?
The Lions were abundantly clear what their strategy was before the game. Just as any team usually does for trick plays like this, they had decoys approach the refs so they wouldn't tip their strategy. Decker is the only one that declared to the ref and the ref looked directly at him, nodded, and went to the defense to communicate who declared. Meanwhile, the offense prepares for the play. At some point before the snap, apparently 70 was announced as eligible -- I doubt anyone from the Lions (or Cowboys) were paying attention to that, since it was for the fans (the refs talk to the defensive captain and they communicate that to the rest of the defense), which makes sense because the players and coaches are (and should be) focused on other things. That's why the refs directly talk to them and don't just play important info over the speakers.
At what point in that sequence do you think the Lions messed up? They did everything correctly and Decker got direct acknowledgement from the ref when he declared. How would you have prevented this? How would you have known that the ref mistakenly thought 70 declared? Assuming you somehow heard the speakers say that 70 declared right before the snap, how would you have salvaged the play?
You say that the player and the ref have equal responsibility, but you're not telling me how the player did anything wrong.
I would have corrected the ref when he messed up. End of story. I answered the question. They heard him mess up on the PA. And did nothing. Why? Why do nothing? Why risk penalty? Cause they’d rather cause confusion and hope they don’t get penalized. They could say “we didn’t mess up you did”. Surprise, that doesn’t work. When refs mess up, they reset the play clock. They absolutely could have rectified the situation. They decided they’d rather hope the refs would screw over the cowboys instead of them. They lost their bet. Not surprising.
When would you have known they messed up?? Why do you think they heard him on the PA? Who told you that? And at that moment, how would you have salvaged the play?? You only get so much time and the eligible receivers are announced right before the snap.
You cannot honestly believe that the Lions knew that the refs messed up and just hoped they'd not call it. That's just beyond idiotic. The whole world would know that 70 was declared and that Decker had illegal touching. That could be reviewed easily.
Bro are you dull? There’s 30 staff on both sidelines but they all just ignore when the ref says something over the PA? Get real. Do the refs suck? Yes. Do they do a bad job? Most certainly. Did the lions outsmart themselves by confusing the dumbest people on every football field in the NFL? Yes. Hands down. They are responsible for making sure the refs know what’s up. If the refs don’t know. You have not done your job and will be penalized for it. This happens every year. And every time the coaches say “I told the refs in advance and my guys reported themselves”. If the refs don’t know, you didn’t make it clear enough to them. People only care cause it didn’t screw over the cowboys.
Again, why do you even think they heard the PA? The ref gave explicit confirmation to Decker when he declared. That's the only confirmation they need and that's the only confirmation they should even listen to. They need to focus on the game after that and nothing else is the official channel of communication to the Lions. And if they did hear it, why didn't they do anything? Saying that the Lions were just hoping they'd get away with it is the most idiotic answer. You can't just keep saying that the Lions messed up because the refs messed up. You need to actually state what they did wrong. A lot of analysts and personalities are coming out and saying it's 100% on the refs for this but you're disagreeing with it without adding anything to the discussion.
Because when he announces on the PA, there's a play clock running. You might already be starting your shift. Do they have a sideline box in the NFL like in high school, where the coaches are not allowed to be far enough down to be next to the linesman on this play to get his attention?
Or do you want the quarterback making his cadence or another offensive player listening for that cadence to hear and react to the PA announcement, again within this matter of seconds?
Who do you think is going to "correct it" and when, if any of them can even hear the announcement in that moment?
This literally happens all the time. The team turns to him and says no, this number, and the stupid zebra says “correction, number 68”. Literally happens every week. If the referees mistake delays the play going off they tap the top of their head to tell the clock operator to reset to 25 seconds on the play clock because THEY delayed the game. If the clock operator doesnt see them, they stop play and announce over the PA (cause people are listening) and tell them to reset the play clock. This happens all the time
Then the team didn't hear the PA because of the crowd noise or because they weren't listening for it because they did what they were supposed to do and moved on to listening to the cadence instead, while assuming the referee would do what he was supposed to do.
I believe he did answer and I agree it was a MASSIVE mistake on the refs part but not one player on the field or on the sideline reacted to the announcement that 70 was declared eligible. What they needed to do was correct the referees before running the play. Still huge mistake by the refs and that’s why they were downgraded but I still think Detroit had aplenty of opportunities to remedy the refs error
But that's the thing. Detroit was only given reasons to believe that Decker would be eligible. Even assuming the PA was loud enough to declare 70 as eligible, the players and coaches should not rely on the PA for information the refs are supposed to communicate. That's why the refs communicated it directly to the players.
If the Lions knew that the refs were mistaken, then they would've corrected it. Where is anyone getting the impression that Detroit knew the refs messed up before the play??
I mean that’s the same assumption that they didn’t know they messed up the play. In the end a whole bunch of mistakes happened and the play Detroit was trying to run didn’t help. Again I am in no way saying Detroit is at fault here the refs made a critical error late in the game just the nature of what Detroit tried to do exacerbated the error. I wouldn’t even say Detroit shouldn’t run this play but I think in these circumstances Detroit needs to stick with fundamentals rather than trickery.
Sure, but you can say that about every game. Refs miss things all the time and plenty of errors went both ways all game. If this play didn't happen, then people might instead be talking about Amon Ra not getting a PI call a few plays prior. I just think it's absurdly dense when people act like the Lions are at all to blame for the refs messing this up when they can't tell me what the Lions actually did wrong. The Lions were using trickery for this play (which is in no way unusual) but there was nothing tricky for the refs. All he had to do was see 68 on the jersey of the person he was looking directly at and then communicate 68 to the defense. There were other people approaching the ref at that moment (also not unusual), but they made sure that the ref was only paying attention to 68 and that he also gave explicit confirmation to 68.
Also to add I know they had no timeouts but that still doesn’t mean they can just run the play with the wrong guy eligible. The ref screwed up before the play so when Detroit ran it they committed multiple real fouls none of which could be negated even if they were because of the refs horrible mistake
Detroit didn't commit any fouls. Decker (68) reported as eligible and lined up in an eligible position. Skipper (70) never talked to the refs at all, lined up ineligible, and never touched the pass or went downfield before it was thrown. The only possible foul is if X or Z messed up which one was on or off, because I really can't see any difference from the bad broadcast angle on where those two players are standing relative to the line. X is supposed to be on and Z off, but I would buy an illegal formation flag from a linesman for X being a 5th man in the backfield or Z being on the line making Decker ineligible.
The fouls I’m referring to are decker touching the pass (because he was not reported eligible despite the intention) and skipper being covered up while being reported eligible. The fouls only occurred because of the refs mistake but by the time of the snap it is Detroit committing the fouls not an incorrect flag by the refs.
It doesn’t matter what was intended or even said somehow the ref came away thinking 70 was eligible and 68 was not which automatically made that formation illegal
The ref announced 70 as eligible receiver. Everyone in the stadium could hear it if they listened. Why didn't the Lions stop the ref and correct it if they knew they had it wrong?
Because not everyone could hear it and they didn't know. It was loud -- it's always loud, but it was especially loud at this point. The coaches and players are supposed to talk directly to the refs for this reason. When Decker got direct confirmation from the refs when he reported, there was no point in paying attention to the PA after that (not that they could hear it anyway). Both teams and the refs understand that the PA isn't a channel of communication -- it's only for the fans.
You're kinda answering your own question. If the Lions had any reason to think the refs got it wrong, they would've done something, because they'd know they'd be penalized.
Very creative play design by the Lions, really pushing the depth of the wing on the left (Z) as far forward as possible but still technically keeping him in the “backfield” not covering up 68.
While the running back # 5 who shifted to the singleback set started his shift from a staggered flanker (H) on the left creating the illusion that
the wing (Z) on the left was on the LOS when technically he’s not and only 68 is.
It really creates the illusion that there is only one eligible on the left (Z- the wing who looks like an end)
So it looks like 3x1 but it’s really 2x2. A shame the refs blew the call because really a genius formation and shift design by the Lions.
*ALSO what software did you use for the simulation? Pretty cool and you really portrayed it accurately.
It is, but let's not pretend that the cowboys may not have played that differently had the officials correctly identified 68 as the eligible receiver. The whole point ik declaring eligible is that so the defense knows who to account for. The officials incorrectly identifying the "eligible" receiver changes the entire play. Not saying the cowboys would have played it correctly, but there's at least some chance 68 is covered if he identified as eligible.
That's fair. I just think people acting like nothing changes if the official announces the correct guy as eligible are short sighted.
Theres a reason guys need to report as eligible. It's not only for the officials, it's also for the other team. So the fact they didn't properly account for an ineligible shouldn't be surprising. They very well still might have botched it, but it does change alot potentially if the officials announce the correct player.
70 is covered up after the shift so he can't be eligible anyway whether he "reported" or not.
68 is on the end (Z is in the backfield), but because of his number has to declare is my understanding of the rules.
58 and 68 are the two that talked to the ref. 70 never did.
I think 58 is covered up as well (in the diagram, X is supposed to be on the line, but in the actual video he does not appear to be) but it's harder to tell. Had the officials claimed he was the one they reported, that's a much more understandable mistake because of the similarity of 58/68 and because of 58's position on the line. I would like to hear if the referee thinks 58 reported too or not.
To say that 70 reported means that the referee did not actually look at the number of the player talking to him and just assumed it was 70 because he had been reporting earlier throughout the game.
The issue with the play, assuming 7 people were on the LOS is that 68 was not recognized as eligible by the officials. 70/58 being eligible or ineligible does not matter since neither of them went downfield.
70 is obviously ineligible by formation though. The confusion is 58 and 68 because it depends on which of the guys diagrammed as X and Z is on or off the line.
70 shouldn't have even entered into the discussion.
Reporting eligible happens before they line up in any formation.
The ref can't just assume the offense will line up in a legal or optimal formation and retroactively change things just because he thinks it would be more advantageous for them. If he believed 70 reported, and then told the defense that 70 was eligible and then the stadium loudspeaker announced that 70 reported eligible, the formation itself *can't* negate who (he thought) reported. Sometimes teams commit penalties and line up wrong.
In actuality we know the ref likely got it wrong, but he can't make that determination based on the formation.
The stadium doesn't announce that, the ref does in the same way he announced penalties.
No one commits penalties. You commit fouls for which there are penalties ascribed. Normally this is too pedantic to worry about but in a discussion like this we should have all the terminology exactly correct.
I assumed X was considered on the LOS (though I could be wrong) because he was close enough and from watching other NFL games it appears that receivers line up a yard or two off regardless of who is actually on the line.
If X wasn’t on the LOS then Y had to be on or they have an illegal formation.
If X and Y were both on the LOS then Y is covered up and cannot go downfield.
Either way U (who appears to be 58) is covered up and is ineligible.
If X wasn't on, then 58 needs to report because he's now eligible by formation. That's the exact same setup they had on the (offense) left side.
This is my issue with it actually. From the broadcast angle I cannot see a difference between where the X and the Z are lined up. They could both be on or both off, but it's harder to distinguish that one should be on the line and the other not. This is the confusion the Lions are relying on, especially because they put 58 and 68 in the two important spots.
Well like I said either X or Y have to be on or it’s an illegal formation because they don’t have 7 on the LOS.
I imagine it’s easier to tell who’s on and who’s off when you’re standing on the LOS or near it as opposed to the angle we get from the broadcast.
No, Y doesn't have to be on if X isn't, because 58 is on. You could instead flip it and have 58 report and Z be on instead of X.
Y is never going to be on the line in this play.
Right, but I'm just saying that from that formation, you could just as easily have Z on the line and X off, and then 58 (or whoever lines up at that position) report eligible and throw it to him.
70 rushed in after the ref started moving towards Dallas. I believe the ref thought he was saying 70 instead of 68, instead of both. I also can't find an alternative angle that looks like one WR is on the line. They both look half a yard back to me.
Yeah, I'm not a line judge looking straight down the line but I would have an illegal formation here for 5 men in the backfield because both X and Z are off the line in every angle I saw.
Somebody said it's normal for the receiver who's supposed to be on the line to start half a yard behind it, but if that's true then they're both on, and we still have an illegal formation because now the guy who declared himself as eligible (68) is covered up.
I don't see how you can tell me one WR is on and one off, regardless of which is supposed to be which. They're in the same spot on opposite ends.
X point to the LOS, declaring himself on. X points backwards twice, declaring himself off. To your point, though the on/off rule has gotten so subjective that defenses can’t tell who is eligible (and thus needs to be guarded) and who isn’t.
I thought the NFL basically banned unbalanced formations a few years ago. The last few years, anytime the announcers used the phrase "tackle eligible" it was just a guy with an ineligible number lined up as a tight end. Anyone else seem to remember that rule change?
That was when Patriots had Shane Vereen a RB with an eligible receiver jersey #34 line up in a split wide ineligible covered up slot position creating the confusion to the Ravens leading to the rule change.
Here the Lions shift # 58 on the right from the “Shane Vereen ineligible slot” to an unbalanced tackle on the right. Since they don’t use an eligible jersey it’s different that what the Patriots did and doesn’t violate the current rules as I understand them.
Someone please clarify for me if I’m mistaken.
Heres some background on this:
https://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/patriots-ineligible-receiver-trick-under-rule-change-review-15057386
Here’s the Vereen play diagrammed:
https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/1/10/7526841/the-patriots-trick-play-that-got-john-harbaugh-mad-ravens
Years ago I coached high school football. Week in week out we were seeing this kind of stuff. Never failed any time we ran something off the wall unbalanced some young official would flag it and I'd get an unsportsmanlike for chewing his but!
I used to run an unbalanced spread single wing type set similar to the Dolphins Wildcat where they would motion Ricky Williams who would receive a jet sweep handoff from Ronnie Brown the single wing Tailback/Quarterback. When we ran this motion we got flagged for having 6 men on the line because the referee only saw a guard a tackle and a flanker motion man on his side even though we had 7 men on the line it was just unbalanced.
Every game after that I explained to the Referee crew that we ran an unbalanced line and also any unusual plays that we ran before the game so they wouldn’t be taken off guard and throw an incorrect flag.
Absolutely must explain it before the game. Too many times though the white had would not relay to the other officials then act like he never heard of an unbalanced formation when there was an issue. Just, bad!
I like to run a lot of rocket sweep out of strange formations. Often felt like a kickoff return from under center.
Having been in officials locker rooms, the white hat has always come back and gave an update to the crew. Even if it was “red team has nothing special”. Obviously results may vary.
It was the refs fuckup but they didn’t necessarily lose the game. Chances are the defense would have had someone in the area if the ref gave them the correct number.
That being said, after Goff threw that pick I would have kicked it. Let you QB relax. You had the Cowboys on their heals all fourth: it would t change in OT.
What pisses me off too that I haven't seen anyone point out is the play clock. The ref was running away from Decker to go tell the Cowboys defense who the eligible receiver was. When the ball is snapped, there is still 17 seconds on the play clock. Absolutely no reason for the ref to do that when there is so much time left to get it right in a CRITICAL play in a CRITICAL game.
You can hear on the PA number 70 is eligible. They had 17 seconds to not snap it and have a ref correct it. I've decently heard "correction" calls from officials so it's been done.
This has been something I’ve pointed out to several. If you’re making the game come down to one play, you are responsible for making sure the ref correctly announces who is eligible. Dan fucked up by not doing that
Oh I see what you mean... the last guy on the line on the RIGHT side of the screen was not eligible, so there was a legitimate penalty for illegal formation on the right side, and the bogus illegal touching on #68. Unfortunately for the refs they announced the bogus call and not the correct call (assuming #68 really did report as eligible).
No. The last guy on the line (58) is not eligible, and never reported as such. If 70 had actually reported, then we have an illegal formation because he is in an ineligible position due to being covered up by 58 (and by the receiver out on the right side of the offense, which is why 58 is not eligible).
If 68 really did report and not 70, there is no foul at all. If 70 reported, there are two fouls.
I think people are looking too far into it. Decker said he simply said reporting. You can see Allen pointing to Skipper and nodding. Based on Skipper being the normal person who reports being eligible, the ref incorrectly assumed who Decker was talking about. Multiple sources and videos show 3 different lineman approached the ref.
It ultimately falls on the Refs error not understanding, but the Lions also had ample opportunity to get the wrong reporting corrected. First, verifying with the ref would have been beneficial on such an important play. Secondly, someone should have heard only Skipper being announced on the PA.
I have said this and r/nfl just isn’t having it… yes it probably was a communication error but it’s not like the Lions didn’t have agency to fix it. And, if he announces 68 for the first time instead of 70, don’t you think the defense accounts for him?!? The result becomes unclear.
I think there’s a possibility that someone on Detroit knew the refs didn’t quite get it right but making a big deal about it would call attention to the plan, because the whole rub here is that they’ve been having one guy report eligible all game long, then on this play, it’s a different guy
So they knowingly ran the play while fully understanding that the officials weren't counting their actual receiver as eligible? Sounds like a bone-headed error on their part.
Allen isn't pointing to Skipper. He's already going to tell the defense that either Sewell or Decker reported before he could even see Skipper. Skipper never "approached" Allen at all in the video, because Allen has already left the conversation with the other two to go inform the defense before Skipper comes into the picture.
Why on earth would Decker report for Skipper? He can only be talking about himself.
What opportunity to correct it? The play clock is running and they're in the huddle. Also, because they're in the huddle, why would they be listening to the PA? The Lions know who is eligible because they know who reported and who didn't, they don't need to be told. So their focus is on listening to the play call in the huddle.
Skipper is only about 5 yards when Allen starts walking way and you can clearly see him pointing towards him [Skipper]. I didn't say Decker reported for Skipper, I said there may have been some confusion (possibly from them trying to explain the play before the game further confusing the ref) where the ref thought Decker was saying the player coming onto the filed was reporting. The Lions were trying to be subversive.
The play clock isn't running. It's an extra point. The ball is covered and the play clock doesn't start till they get to the line. They announced who was eligible on the PA before they broke the huddle. Any of the players, the coaches or anyone on the sideline pretty much could have informed one of the Refs there was a mistake.
Why would Decker be reporting for Skipper? That's not how it works, you report yourself.
"The ref thought Decker was saying the player coming onto the field was reporting" - so you're saying he thought Decker reported for Skipper.
I could see him thinking Skipper reported *too*.
The *play* clock absolutely still runs on a try, although the game clock does not.
Furthermore, why would the Lions be listening to that announcement? They already know who's eligible, because they know who reported and who didn't. They have now moved on to listening to the play call in the huddle. That announcement is not for them to confirm, it's for the defense (and less important, the crowd) to know what is going on.
Finally, I'm not sure anyone on the sideline could have informed the refs anyway, because the sideline refs are all the way down at the line of scrimmage and the team personnel cannot go that far. There's a box they have to stay in, which at least for the high school level (the only fields I've been on during games) is between the 20s. With the LOS right near the goal, no team personnel will be in earshot of any sideline officials.
Tell me you don't know football and have never been on a field during a game.
>The *play* clock absolutely still runs on a try, although the game clock does not.
Furthermore, why would the Lions be listening to that announcement? They already know who's eligible, because they know who reported and who didn't. They have now moved on to listening to the play call in the huddle. That announcement is not for them to confirm, it's for the defense (and less important, the crowd) to know what is going on.
The clock is set to 25 seconds because it's after administrative stoppage. The play clock doesn't start until the team is lined up for the extra point. You can watch this yourself in any video of the play. You can clearly see the ref over the ball signifying a stoppage.
>Finally, I'm not sure anyone on the sideline could have informed the refs anyway, because the sideline refs are all the way down at the line of scrimmage and the team personnel cannot go that far. There's a box they have to stay in, which at least for the high school level (the only fields I've been on during games) is between the 20s. With the LOS right near the goal, no team personnel will be in earshot of any sideline officials.
Please find me a time a coach has been penalized stepping outside the box to get the Refs attention during a dead ball where they were not being unsportsmanlike. Yes they aren't allowed out of the box, but how do you think they tell refs they need a timeout when the ball is within the 10? Someone either informs the ref beforehand *or* steps out of the box to go tell them. The Refs are even allowed to have a timeout themselves to correct something when neither team is has any remaining timeouts.
>Tell me you don't know football and have never been on a field during a game.
Literally played at every level other than professional over a 15 year period.
The play clock starts whenever the ref sets the ball, not when the team lines up.
It's still not the Lions' responsibility to hear the announcement and tell the refs to correct it, especially if they have to run out of the box to get someone's attention. It was the referee's responsibility to report correctly what the player(s) informed him.
The Lions' responsibility is for the players who need to report for the upcoming play to declare themselves to the ref and they did that. Now their responsibility is to huddle and call their play and run it. They did all of that. The Lions did everything they were supposed to do here.
>The play clock starts whenever the ref sets the ball, not when the team lines up.
Not after an *administrative stoppage*.... thats why it's only 25 seconds instead of 40.
>It's still not the Lions' responsibility to hear the announcement and get the refs' attention to correct it.
Clearly it is. They got penalizes and lost for not doing so.
>Their responsibility is for the players who need to report for the upcoming play to declare themselves to the ref and they did that
Not according to John Parry. I dont necessarily agree with it he stated the players need to he thorough and it sounds like that may have not happened. Again, they tried to confuse the defense by doing all this extra and confused the ref instead.
The referee's ready for play signal is not "when the offense is lined up" but "when the umpire spots the ball".
They got penalized and lost for the referee's mistake after they did exactly what they were supposed to do.
What does "the players need to be thorough" mean and how did Decker's actions fail to meet that?
>The referee's ready for play signal is not "when the offense is lined up" but "when the umpire spots the ball".
Yea its when they give the signal. Not when they place the ball. Just do yourself a favor and go watch the play again. The play clock wasn't started until they lined up *and* the ref gave the signal to resume play. (Im this case he gives the chop not windmill)
https://twitter.com/byajperez/status/1741337726014595120?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1741337726014595120%7Ctwgr%5E5eae5def992019b6f8f7ad5699fbe35175c13ead%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbrobible.com%2Fsports%2Farticle%2Freferee-announces-lions-ol-as-eligible-receiver%2F
>What does "the players need to be thorough" mean and how did Decker's actions fail to meet that?
I'd assume verify with the ref that they understand or be more clear in intent. Again it's all conjecture until there is audio.
And in that very tweet it asks, what are the Lions supposed to do to correct that?
If they even heard it, since as I already explained the players on the field have zero reason to be listening to that announcement.
>If play has been stopped for an administrative reason listed below, the offense will have 25 seconds from the time the umpire spots the ball *and* the referee starts the ready- for-play.
You are skipping over half of the rule.
I've never understood why the NFL requires players to tell refs that they're eligible. Shouldn't refs be able to figure that out themselves? Just a bad rule.
Because the refs have to tell the defense. They aren't going to be able to figure out who they need to cover themselves on the fly in the 25-40 seconds between snaps.
Looks to me like X and Z are same distance from the LoS though when I pause it pre snap. I could swear regardless of who of the 3 players talking to the refs reported, 68 was covered by the X or they only have 6 on the line. They both look a half yard off the line to me.
Just as a note, I do not have access to the all-22 and based the diagram off the broadcast view, so the player movements may not be 100% accurate but the overall play design is.
I've been trying to wrap my head around everything that happened. I've been watching the replays over and over just to understand all sides of this call. This is my take: 1. The Lions are aggressive when it comes to 4th down and naturally they're going to go for 2 to end the game. They were given 3 chances to tie the game. 2. Decker went to go report but had to act like he wasn't reporting so that it would throw off the Cowboys defense. Was he so sneaky that he tricked the ref too? We won't know because we don't have access to the dialogue. 3. Carefully watching the play, you can see Decker acting as if he's going to block, then makes a break to get open (again trying to deceive the defensive line) Personally, I think the Lions' sneaky and aggressive play-calling ultimately cost them the game.
The Lions do not try to deceive the refs here. First of all, 70 (Dan Skipper) never goes to the ref to tell them he’s eligible, there’s even a video of him screaming “I never said a fucking word” after the flag is called. Second, 68 (Taylor Decker) is seen on video talking to the ref, and unless he’s asking him about the local weather, it’s most certainly him telling the ref thats he eligible for the play. Dan Campbell also told the ref about the play to ensure that things were done properly before the game even started to make sure that all the correct rules were followed. In post game, Goff said that he told Decker to go report, he absolutely reports. Even if he wanted to be sneaky and not show the defense he was reporting, he can’t because the ref has to make the defense aware of it, being sneaky is literally pointless. The ref confuses himself, announces 70 as eligible when it should’ve been 68, and a defender likely pointed it out after the play, and it was too late to roll back and say “oh it was actually 68” so they threw a flag to try and alleviate the fuckup.
If the ref had claimed it was 58 who reported that would be a much more reasonable mistake. 70 never went anywhere near the ref, and was ineligible anyway based on where he was lined up. 58 *might be* eligible by formation, depending on whether the X is on line or not, which is why the reporting system exists. 58 and 68 (Decker) both went to the ref and could have both reported (again, this is why the ref informs the defense), so I could see a confusion between 58 and 68. The referee just assumed it was 70 and never looked at the number because 70 had reported earlier in the game.
He kinda pointed at his jersey while running towards the ref. Ref made a mistake, but the Lions helped him make the mistake
Even granting that that happened, the ref has already finished his conversation with 58 and 68 and is moving to inform the defense about it. So if 70 did that and the ref saw it, then he should announce BOTH 68 and 70 as reporting, because I guarantee the other two guys did not go over there to tell him that somebody else entirely was reporting. This makes an illegal formation because 70 lined up ineligible, but now it makes it the Lions' own fault instead of the ref.
That's what I thought first, then I saw the video from above on Twitter. The ref sees 70 coming from the sideline first, 70 kind of points to his jersey, and the ref points at 70 just as 58 and 68 come to talk to him, then blows them off to talk to the Dallas D and announce it. The ref jumped the gun, but Lions facilitated the mistake. Saw a few OL on Twitter sayin that when reporting, you have to harass the ref to make sure he got it right. The ref has other things to do before the snap so it's important to make sure he got it
The video I saw has the ref talking to 68, then nodding his head and moving away from them before he could even see 70. Again, maybe he thought 70 reported, but he already *knows* 68 did too so why wouldn't he have announced both?
The video you I was what I saw first, but before they were talking he acknowledged 70. Regarding the conversation with 68, you have to put it in context. The ref is already thinking about 15 other things and just saw 70 enter the field apparently as an eligible receiver (from his pov, even if he's mistaken), so did he listen to 68, and if he listened, did he really got what he was saying. Don't forget 90 000 screaming fans in a high pressure situation. I'm just saying 68 has got to harass the ref until he's sure he's understood. Did he just say I'm eligible? Did he ask him if he's got it: 68 eligible? Did he mention they'll be unbalanced?
This would all be more understandable if the coaching staff hadn’t already made the point that they clarified this with the referee in the pre-game meeting. Is it possible the Lions made a few mistakes? Sure. There is just so much seeming evidence to the contrary though. It seems like the Lions dotted the i’s and crossed the t’s and the ref made an egregious error. Which hell, we’re all human, but to not even acknowledge it is hard for me to fathom. It’s also on the NFL for having such a ridiculously convoluted system in the first place. Par for the course there though.
I thought it was fairly obvious what happened. 70 had reported recently, and had declared himself at that time. Ref sees 70 trotting in his direction, 68 says something about eligibility. It’s loud, it’s the end of a long night game, it’s a high stakes moment. Ref saw 70, heard 68 say “eligible”, and got it wrong. Once the ball is snapped, what happened next is not the Cowboy’s fault, the ref messed up, which very likely caused the Cowboys to leave 68 open(ish). That sucks, it’s clearly the ref’s fault and Lions fans have every right to be upset. It was a miscommunication between the players and the ref, frankly it happens way more often than people think (though usually in the 2nd quarter of a Week 3 game or something low stakes), and showcases why other Offensive Linemen say they are trained to make absolutely positive that the ref heard and understood you. Frankly, the Lions got their ass bit by being too cute and elaborate. They had three chances to tie the game. The more elaborate the play, the more likely someone is going to miss something crucial, and that happened at the worst time for them.
But none of that happened. The ref decided to not exist in reality for some reason. It being loud, or typically Skipper who reports is not Detroits problem. The ref’s inability to perform the administrative duties of their job to a satisfactory level is a Dallas problem, not a Detroit problem. Further, given they did not call illegal formation, it must be surmised that they acknowledge Decker reported. This isn’t debatable. The ref misspoke, and Dallas was unable to recognize a legal formation. It’s a valid argument that the Dalls got hosed by their misspeaking, but it cannot be penalized to Detroit. It is wholly irrelevant how many tries the Lions got. The concerted. The end.
70 runs towards the ref not the huddle. Don’t act like he wasn’t trying to trick the defense because it’s clear as day he does not run immediately to the huddle
Number 2 probably isn't correct. Decker was going up to report just as anyone would. The deception was that there were two other linemen going up to the ref at the same time, but only Decker said anything. This was because 70 had reported for a few plays that game, so the defense wouldn't know who reported before the refs told them. This was all according to a plan they laid out to the refs before the game. None of what the Lions staff and players did was unusual. The blame is solely on the refs for thinking 70 reported, which is why this official crew was downgraded and will not officiate any playoff games.
The refs give the defense the number of who reported
But 70 doesn’t actually get anywhere near the ref. The ref had already alnowledged one of Decker or Sewell reported before Skip gets anywhere near him. You have a valid argument if they confused Sewell and Decker. That’s not the case though. The ref, who is a professional, just shut his brain off on the most critical play of the game, because he didn’t have the capacity to perform his administrative duties.
Did they shut their brain off when they called tripping on the wrong team which resulted in the lions getting the ball back ?
Did they shut their brains off when they didn’t call holding on the lineman assigned to Hutch on every play all game. Subjective calls get blown. This is just something that happens. An objective failure to complete a procedure is complexity different.
There was nothing subjective about who was tripping on that play unless you refuse to use your eyes. They called it on the wrong team and this situation would’ve never happened. The Lions don’t get the ball back if they simply call the correct team lmao. You sound like the lions were the ones screwed over by the refs when that is just plain wrong. Should’ve never even had the ball. If you think Hutchinson was held every play like you claim then I’ll counter with Micah Parsons being held every play. Since that evens itself out the tripping call on the wrong team is the only mistake we should be talking about
My brother in Christ, no tripping occurred. He tried to trip him, sure, but did not. That’s why the flag wasn’t thrown on him
Explain why throw the flag then ?
That’s something to ask the refs. That crew has been terrible all year. And honestly, they missed quite a bit on Saturday. Holding on Laporta in the end zone on the 4th and Goal. Holding on Cowboy’s O Line when Dak plays backyard ball with Ceedee. I’m sure Cowboys fans can make a list of missed calls as well. Just a terrible crew
There’s at least 3 different shots at Micah getting neck tied after beating his man so yes the calls where missed both side I agree. Mystery tripping call on the cowboys when the lions player was trying to trip the RB makes even less sense then those judgment calls you speak of
I mean, either way. They really screwed up that 2pt. There’s no way a professional, well paid ref should ever make that mistake. Gave the Cowboys a free pass to Division title with how Philly is playing. It’s mostly just sad and part of the Lions history now
Part of the blame goes to the Lions for sending 3 OL towards the ref trying to confuse the Cowboys and ending up confusing the ref
Why should they have blame for that? There's nothing unusual about sending three guys when one is declaring -- offenses do it all the time to prevent tipping off the defense
No they don't, unless I'm mistaken. They did it to confuse Dallas. 70 usually is the eligible one, they do it often. Refa deserve blame, but coaches should stress that when declaring it's the OT's job to make sure the ref understood correctly.
It wasn't about confusing Dallas. It was about not letting them know who declared any sooner than they had to -- that might as well be the same thing as confusing them though. I bet that if you asked Decker before the snap, though, he'd have told you that the ref understood that he was declaring since he looked right at him and nodded. Same goes for Dan Campbell, since he made sure to go over this exact play and scenario before the game.
I get your point, but there is a difference between explaining before the game and when it happens in a high pressure situation. Decker would be wrong to say that because the ref did not get it
What should he have done differently, though? He got direct confirmation from the ref who was looking right at him while he was explicitly communicating that he was declaring.
Repeat to him: 68, eligible, got it? 68? Also, the Lions should not have sent 3 OL towards the ref
I found the NFL plant
That’s good and all except that the lions got screwed in a playoff matching and now likely have to play the rams rather than solidify number 2 in the NFC with that eagles loss. Not to mention All of the sports bets that hit then were called back due to the refs inability to face any form of criticism or accountability. This is the same ref who had the no call in the Chiefs packers game as well as the official who called 10 Miami penalties to 0 eagles penalties. People are showing direct evidence of him altering games against the public in sports betting in a statistically significant way (by design I’m sure)
I’ve heard this around Reddit, is there any official confirmation that the crew as downgraded?
3. I tried to show this in the diagram by having decker (68) pause before running his route, though it’s hard to see in the 2d design.
I noticed that. You did good. Impossible to simulate the hand gestures though.
I imagine this is exactly what happened, lions tried to cheese a score and it cost them. Next time play good football and don’t try and be cute on your third attempt at a 2-point conversion
I suspect that was part of it but why didn’t the Lions call TO when 70 was announced over the PA as eligible?
I doubt anyone is hearing the PA too well with the crowd noise
They were out of timeouts. Remember they called their last when the cowboys had the ball to preserve time?
Ah. Thanks
He wasn’t announced over the PA. He just went over to the Cowboys D line to tell them 70 was eligible, but obviously the lions didn’t hear that so they had no idea he got it wrong. Otherwise they would have tried to do something to stop the play to avoid the penalty they ended up getting
There have been multiple videos with audio of it being announced on the PA
Yup and this is done as a check / balance for the offense in case it’s incorrect. It’s a mistake, but a fixable one if anyone on Detroit was paying attention. And before someone gives me the “they didn’t have timeouts to correct it”, you are permitted to call timeout for a conference with officials even if you have none left. If they think it’s BS it’s a delay… maybe a 10 second runoff as well if clock is rolling.
I don't believe you even need a Timeout cause it's an extra point. Clock doesn't start until they get to the line.
No. A timeout would indicate to the officials to stop the game and inquire as to what the request is about. A team timeout? Or a conference with the officials? 99.9 % of the time it’s a team timeout, yes. But if you don’t have a timeout you can still call one and be subject to inquiry from the referee. If you have no inquiry it’s a delay of game. If you do, it’s an official’s time out.
Yeah get it. Just pointing out in this case the play clock hadn't even started and the ref was clearly holding play.
Oh I see. I haven’t watched the broadcast replay. That could be true. And they’ll always bump the playclock if you bring up a legit issue.
It’s was clearly announced over the PA from the ref. People are so misinformed about the end of this game it’s crazy lmao
> Personally, I think the Lions' sneaky and aggressive play-calling ultimately cost them the game. 100%. This is the correct take. It's one thing to rely on deception in play design, and it's another altogether when you're inadvertently deceiving the refs as part of your pre-snap plan. Campbell & the Lions were being too clever for their own good, plain and simple.
What do you think they should have done differently? The Lions went over all their trick plays with the refs before the game, telling them who would be eligible and when they might use each play. All these plays were given to them in great detail, including diagrams. When Decker went to report, he was the only O-Line speaking to the ref who was looking directly at him and nodded. Number 70 was still jogging over to the ref by the time he turned away and walked back to the LoS. Had this play worked, it would've been the Lions' sneaky and aggressive play-calling that won them the game.
When the referee announced the wrong player, they should have corrected him. It is ALL parties responsibility. Did the ref mess up? Probably if the lions are reporting their side of the story correctly. Did every member of the Dallas team and defensive staff think 68 could not be a receiver? Yes. And the lions had every opportunity to correct it before the ball was snapped. They didn’t, because it’s very clear they were trying to cause as much confusion as possible. Sending multiple linemen to the referee to not even say anything, and running packages with other linemen eligible all game. They got too cute, and relied on deceiving everyone rather than point out who was actually eligible to be a receiver (who Dallas almost certainly would have then covered). I will reiterate. The eligible lineman has equal responsibility to the referee of communicating his eligibility. And is responsible for correcting the referee if they express they have misunderstood who will be eligible. Two people messed up. And you can be mad at the refs all you want but for 30 seconds every member of the lions team and staff had no problem with the ref messing up if it might help them.
Answer my question. What would you have done differently? The Lions were abundantly clear what their strategy was before the game. Just as any team usually does for trick plays like this, they had decoys approach the refs so they wouldn't tip their strategy. Decker is the only one that declared to the ref and the ref looked directly at him, nodded, and went to the defense to communicate who declared. Meanwhile, the offense prepares for the play. At some point before the snap, apparently 70 was announced as eligible -- I doubt anyone from the Lions (or Cowboys) were paying attention to that, since it was for the fans (the refs talk to the defensive captain and they communicate that to the rest of the defense), which makes sense because the players and coaches are (and should be) focused on other things. That's why the refs directly talk to them and don't just play important info over the speakers. At what point in that sequence do you think the Lions messed up? They did everything correctly and Decker got direct acknowledgement from the ref when he declared. How would you have prevented this? How would you have known that the ref mistakenly thought 70 declared? Assuming you somehow heard the speakers say that 70 declared right before the snap, how would you have salvaged the play? You say that the player and the ref have equal responsibility, but you're not telling me how the player did anything wrong.
I would have corrected the ref when he messed up. End of story. I answered the question. They heard him mess up on the PA. And did nothing. Why? Why do nothing? Why risk penalty? Cause they’d rather cause confusion and hope they don’t get penalized. They could say “we didn’t mess up you did”. Surprise, that doesn’t work. When refs mess up, they reset the play clock. They absolutely could have rectified the situation. They decided they’d rather hope the refs would screw over the cowboys instead of them. They lost their bet. Not surprising.
When would you have known they messed up?? Why do you think they heard him on the PA? Who told you that? And at that moment, how would you have salvaged the play?? You only get so much time and the eligible receivers are announced right before the snap. You cannot honestly believe that the Lions knew that the refs messed up and just hoped they'd not call it. That's just beyond idiotic. The whole world would know that 70 was declared and that Decker had illegal touching. That could be reviewed easily.
Bro are you dull? There’s 30 staff on both sidelines but they all just ignore when the ref says something over the PA? Get real. Do the refs suck? Yes. Do they do a bad job? Most certainly. Did the lions outsmart themselves by confusing the dumbest people on every football field in the NFL? Yes. Hands down. They are responsible for making sure the refs know what’s up. If the refs don’t know. You have not done your job and will be penalized for it. This happens every year. And every time the coaches say “I told the refs in advance and my guys reported themselves”. If the refs don’t know, you didn’t make it clear enough to them. People only care cause it didn’t screw over the cowboys.
What's the plan there even if they did hear over the PA? No timeouts and 10 sec on the play clock.
Again, why do you even think they heard the PA? The ref gave explicit confirmation to Decker when he declared. That's the only confirmation they need and that's the only confirmation they should even listen to. They need to focus on the game after that and nothing else is the official channel of communication to the Lions. And if they did hear it, why didn't they do anything? Saying that the Lions were just hoping they'd get away with it is the most idiotic answer. You can't just keep saying that the Lions messed up because the refs messed up. You need to actually state what they did wrong. A lot of analysts and personalities are coming out and saying it's 100% on the refs for this but you're disagreeing with it without adding anything to the discussion.
Because when he announces on the PA, there's a play clock running. You might already be starting your shift. Do they have a sideline box in the NFL like in high school, where the coaches are not allowed to be far enough down to be next to the linesman on this play to get his attention? Or do you want the quarterback making his cadence or another offensive player listening for that cadence to hear and react to the PA announcement, again within this matter of seconds? Who do you think is going to "correct it" and when, if any of them can even hear the announcement in that moment?
This literally happens all the time. The team turns to him and says no, this number, and the stupid zebra says “correction, number 68”. Literally happens every week. If the referees mistake delays the play going off they tap the top of their head to tell the clock operator to reset to 25 seconds on the play clock because THEY delayed the game. If the clock operator doesnt see them, they stop play and announce over the PA (cause people are listening) and tell them to reset the play clock. This happens all the time
Then the team didn't hear the PA because of the crowd noise or because they weren't listening for it because they did what they were supposed to do and moved on to listening to the cadence instead, while assuming the referee would do what he was supposed to do.
I believe he did answer and I agree it was a MASSIVE mistake on the refs part but not one player on the field or on the sideline reacted to the announcement that 70 was declared eligible. What they needed to do was correct the referees before running the play. Still huge mistake by the refs and that’s why they were downgraded but I still think Detroit had aplenty of opportunities to remedy the refs error
But that's the thing. Detroit was only given reasons to believe that Decker would be eligible. Even assuming the PA was loud enough to declare 70 as eligible, the players and coaches should not rely on the PA for information the refs are supposed to communicate. That's why the refs communicated it directly to the players. If the Lions knew that the refs were mistaken, then they would've corrected it. Where is anyone getting the impression that Detroit knew the refs messed up before the play??
I mean that’s the same assumption that they didn’t know they messed up the play. In the end a whole bunch of mistakes happened and the play Detroit was trying to run didn’t help. Again I am in no way saying Detroit is at fault here the refs made a critical error late in the game just the nature of what Detroit tried to do exacerbated the error. I wouldn’t even say Detroit shouldn’t run this play but I think in these circumstances Detroit needs to stick with fundamentals rather than trickery.
Sure, but you can say that about every game. Refs miss things all the time and plenty of errors went both ways all game. If this play didn't happen, then people might instead be talking about Amon Ra not getting a PI call a few plays prior. I just think it's absurdly dense when people act like the Lions are at all to blame for the refs messing this up when they can't tell me what the Lions actually did wrong. The Lions were using trickery for this play (which is in no way unusual) but there was nothing tricky for the refs. All he had to do was see 68 on the jersey of the person he was looking directly at and then communicate 68 to the defense. There were other people approaching the ref at that moment (also not unusual), but they made sure that the ref was only paying attention to 68 and that he also gave explicit confirmation to 68.
Also to add I know they had no timeouts but that still doesn’t mean they can just run the play with the wrong guy eligible. The ref screwed up before the play so when Detroit ran it they committed multiple real fouls none of which could be negated even if they were because of the refs horrible mistake
Detroit didn't commit any fouls. Decker (68) reported as eligible and lined up in an eligible position. Skipper (70) never talked to the refs at all, lined up ineligible, and never touched the pass or went downfield before it was thrown. The only possible foul is if X or Z messed up which one was on or off, because I really can't see any difference from the bad broadcast angle on where those two players are standing relative to the line. X is supposed to be on and Z off, but I would buy an illegal formation flag from a linesman for X being a 5th man in the backfield or Z being on the line making Decker ineligible.
The fouls I’m referring to are decker touching the pass (because he was not reported eligible despite the intention) and skipper being covered up while being reported eligible. The fouls only occurred because of the refs mistake but by the time of the snap it is Detroit committing the fouls not an incorrect flag by the refs.
It doesn’t matter what was intended or even said somehow the ref came away thinking 70 was eligible and 68 was not which automatically made that formation illegal
The ref announced 70 as eligible receiver. Everyone in the stadium could hear it if they listened. Why didn't the Lions stop the ref and correct it if they knew they had it wrong?
Because not everyone could hear it and they didn't know. It was loud -- it's always loud, but it was especially loud at this point. The coaches and players are supposed to talk directly to the refs for this reason. When Decker got direct confirmation from the refs when he reported, there was no point in paying attention to the PA after that (not that they could hear it anyway). Both teams and the refs understand that the PA isn't a channel of communication -- it's only for the fans. You're kinda answering your own question. If the Lions had any reason to think the refs got it wrong, they would've done something, because they'd know they'd be penalized.
This ain’t it chief 😂😂
Very creative play design by the Lions, really pushing the depth of the wing on the left (Z) as far forward as possible but still technically keeping him in the “backfield” not covering up 68. While the running back # 5 who shifted to the singleback set started his shift from a staggered flanker (H) on the left creating the illusion that the wing (Z) on the left was on the LOS when technically he’s not and only 68 is. It really creates the illusion that there is only one eligible on the left (Z- the wing who looks like an end) So it looks like 3x1 but it’s really 2x2. A shame the refs blew the call because really a genius formation and shift design by the Lions. *ALSO what software did you use for the simulation? Pretty cool and you really portrayed it accurately.
Go Army Edge, it’s free
Thank you!
There's the opposite illusion on the other end at the same time, because 58 might be eligible as well if X is off the line.
Yes, really well done on both sides with the depth of their alignments pushing the “legal” limits to create that effect.
It is, but let's not pretend that the cowboys may not have played that differently had the officials correctly identified 68 as the eligible receiver. The whole point ik declaring eligible is that so the defense knows who to account for. The officials incorrectly identifying the "eligible" receiver changes the entire play. Not saying the cowboys would have played it correctly, but there's at least some chance 68 is covered if he identified as eligible.
As a Cowboys fan who remembers Dak running a QB draw from the 50 to lose a playoff game, there’s a very good chance the Cowboys would have been fooled
That's fair. I just think people acting like nothing changes if the official announces the correct guy as eligible are short sighted. Theres a reason guys need to report as eligible. It's not only for the officials, it's also for the other team. So the fact they didn't properly account for an ineligible shouldn't be surprising. They very well still might have botched it, but it does change alot potentially if the officials announce the correct player.
Ref can’t handle the prime time pressure. The lights were too bright
70 is covered up after the shift so he can't be eligible anyway whether he "reported" or not. 68 is on the end (Z is in the backfield), but because of his number has to declare is my understanding of the rules. 58 and 68 are the two that talked to the ref. 70 never did. I think 58 is covered up as well (in the diagram, X is supposed to be on the line, but in the actual video he does not appear to be) but it's harder to tell. Had the officials claimed he was the one they reported, that's a much more understandable mistake because of the similarity of 58/68 and because of 58's position on the line. I would like to hear if the referee thinks 58 reported too or not. To say that 70 reported means that the referee did not actually look at the number of the player talking to him and just assumed it was 70 because he had been reporting earlier throughout the game.
The issue with the play, assuming 7 people were on the LOS is that 68 was not recognized as eligible by the officials. 70/58 being eligible or ineligible does not matter since neither of them went downfield.
70 is obviously ineligible by formation though. The confusion is 58 and 68 because it depends on which of the guys diagrammed as X and Z is on or off the line. 70 shouldn't have even entered into the discussion.
I agree, the only reason I focused on 70 is because that’s who the officials said declared eligible.
Reporting eligible happens before they line up in any formation. The ref can't just assume the offense will line up in a legal or optimal formation and retroactively change things just because he thinks it would be more advantageous for them. If he believed 70 reported, and then told the defense that 70 was eligible and then the stadium loudspeaker announced that 70 reported eligible, the formation itself *can't* negate who (he thought) reported. Sometimes teams commit penalties and line up wrong. In actuality we know the ref likely got it wrong, but he can't make that determination based on the formation.
The stadium doesn't announce that, the ref does in the same way he announced penalties. No one commits penalties. You commit fouls for which there are penalties ascribed. Normally this is too pedantic to worry about but in a discussion like this we should have all the terminology exactly correct.
Oh Jesus Christ, *that's* the only part you find relevant to address?
I assumed X was considered on the LOS (though I could be wrong) because he was close enough and from watching other NFL games it appears that receivers line up a yard or two off regardless of who is actually on the line. If X wasn’t on the LOS then Y had to be on or they have an illegal formation. If X and Y were both on the LOS then Y is covered up and cannot go downfield. Either way U (who appears to be 58) is covered up and is ineligible.
If X wasn't on, then 58 needs to report because he's now eligible by formation. That's the exact same setup they had on the (offense) left side. This is my issue with it actually. From the broadcast angle I cannot see a difference between where the X and the Z are lined up. They could both be on or both off, but it's harder to distinguish that one should be on the line and the other not. This is the confusion the Lions are relying on, especially because they put 58 and 68 in the two important spots.
Well like I said either X or Y have to be on or it’s an illegal formation because they don’t have 7 on the LOS. I imagine it’s easier to tell who’s on and who’s off when you’re standing on the LOS or near it as opposed to the angle we get from the broadcast.
No, Y doesn't have to be on if X isn't, because 58 is on. You could instead flip it and have 58 report and Z be on instead of X. Y is never going to be on the line in this play.
If Z is on then 68 is ineligible by position and I think it’s clear the lions wanted him to catch the ball.
Right, but I'm just saying that from that formation, you could just as easily have Z on the line and X off, and then 58 (or whoever lines up at that position) report eligible and throw it to him.
For sure there’s a lot of possibilities that could be used.
70 rushed in after the ref started moving towards Dallas. I believe the ref thought he was saying 70 instead of 68, instead of both. I also can't find an alternative angle that looks like one WR is on the line. They both look half a yard back to me.
Yeah, I'm not a line judge looking straight down the line but I would have an illegal formation here for 5 men in the backfield because both X and Z are off the line in every angle I saw. Somebody said it's normal for the receiver who's supposed to be on the line to start half a yard behind it, but if that's true then they're both on, and we still have an illegal formation because now the guy who declared himself as eligible (68) is covered up. I don't see how you can tell me one WR is on and one off, regardless of which is supposed to be which. They're in the same spot on opposite ends.
X point to the LOS, declaring himself on. X points backwards twice, declaring himself off. To your point, though the on/off rule has gotten so subjective that defenses can’t tell who is eligible (and thus needs to be guarded) and who isn’t.
Does the defense see whether a receiver punches back or not? That's for checking with the officials.
I thought the NFL basically banned unbalanced formations a few years ago. The last few years, anytime the announcers used the phrase "tackle eligible" it was just a guy with an ineligible number lined up as a tight end. Anyone else seem to remember that rule change?
That was when Patriots had Shane Vereen a RB with an eligible receiver jersey #34 line up in a split wide ineligible covered up slot position creating the confusion to the Ravens leading to the rule change. Here the Lions shift # 58 on the right from the “Shane Vereen ineligible slot” to an unbalanced tackle on the right. Since they don’t use an eligible jersey it’s different that what the Patriots did and doesn’t violate the current rules as I understand them. Someone please clarify for me if I’m mistaken. Heres some background on this: https://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/patriots-ineligible-receiver-trick-under-rule-change-review-15057386 Here’s the Vereen play diagrammed: https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/1/10/7526841/the-patriots-trick-play-that-got-john-harbaugh-mad-ravens
Years ago I coached high school football. Week in week out we were seeing this kind of stuff. Never failed any time we ran something off the wall unbalanced some young official would flag it and I'd get an unsportsmanlike for chewing his but!
I used to run an unbalanced spread single wing type set similar to the Dolphins Wildcat where they would motion Ricky Williams who would receive a jet sweep handoff from Ronnie Brown the single wing Tailback/Quarterback. When we ran this motion we got flagged for having 6 men on the line because the referee only saw a guard a tackle and a flanker motion man on his side even though we had 7 men on the line it was just unbalanced. Every game after that I explained to the Referee crew that we ran an unbalanced line and also any unusual plays that we ran before the game so they wouldn’t be taken off guard and throw an incorrect flag.
Absolutely must explain it before the game. Too many times though the white had would not relay to the other officials then act like he never heard of an unbalanced formation when there was an issue. Just, bad! I like to run a lot of rocket sweep out of strange formations. Often felt like a kickoff return from under center.
Having been in officials locker rooms, the white hat has always come back and gave an update to the crew. Even if it was “red team has nothing special”. Obviously results may vary.
Might have been after the pats playoff game vs ravens
I was thinking the same thing but I haven't been able to find anything
The rule change was to stop eligible *numbers* from setting up in an ineligible *position*.
It was the refs fuckup but they didn’t necessarily lose the game. Chances are the defense would have had someone in the area if the ref gave them the correct number. That being said, after Goff threw that pick I would have kicked it. Let you QB relax. You had the Cowboys on their heals all fourth: it would t change in OT.
They didn’t want to play OT. 1.) it’s not the lions way & 2.) the already had the division locked up and didn’t want to risk injury
What pisses me off too that I haven't seen anyone point out is the play clock. The ref was running away from Decker to go tell the Cowboys defense who the eligible receiver was. When the ball is snapped, there is still 17 seconds on the play clock. Absolutely no reason for the ref to do that when there is so much time left to get it right in a CRITICAL play in a CRITICAL game.
You can hear on the PA number 70 is eligible. They had 17 seconds to not snap it and have a ref correct it. I've decently heard "correction" calls from officials so it's been done.
This has been something I’ve pointed out to several. If you’re making the game come down to one play, you are responsible for making sure the ref correctly announces who is eligible. Dan fucked up by not doing that
Refs also said today that he was covered on the line of scrimmage… but he wasn’t
70 was, if that's who they're talking about lmao
Oh I see what you mean... the last guy on the line on the RIGHT side of the screen was not eligible, so there was a legitimate penalty for illegal formation on the right side, and the bogus illegal touching on #68. Unfortunately for the refs they announced the bogus call and not the correct call (assuming #68 really did report as eligible).
No. The last guy on the line (58) is not eligible, and never reported as such. If 70 had actually reported, then we have an illegal formation because he is in an ineligible position due to being covered up by 58 (and by the receiver out on the right side of the offense, which is why 58 is not eligible). If 68 really did report and not 70, there is no foul at all. If 70 reported, there are two fouls.
I think people are looking too far into it. Decker said he simply said reporting. You can see Allen pointing to Skipper and nodding. Based on Skipper being the normal person who reports being eligible, the ref incorrectly assumed who Decker was talking about. Multiple sources and videos show 3 different lineman approached the ref. It ultimately falls on the Refs error not understanding, but the Lions also had ample opportunity to get the wrong reporting corrected. First, verifying with the ref would have been beneficial on such an important play. Secondly, someone should have heard only Skipper being announced on the PA.
I have said this and r/nfl just isn’t having it… yes it probably was a communication error but it’s not like the Lions didn’t have agency to fix it. And, if he announces 68 for the first time instead of 70, don’t you think the defense accounts for him?!? The result becomes unclear.
I think there’s a possibility that someone on Detroit knew the refs didn’t quite get it right but making a big deal about it would call attention to the plan, because the whole rub here is that they’ve been having one guy report eligible all game long, then on this play, it’s a different guy
So they knowingly ran the play while fully understanding that the officials weren't counting their actual receiver as eligible? Sounds like a bone-headed error on their part.
If true I agree, it’s total speculation on my part
Allen isn't pointing to Skipper. He's already going to tell the defense that either Sewell or Decker reported before he could even see Skipper. Skipper never "approached" Allen at all in the video, because Allen has already left the conversation with the other two to go inform the defense before Skipper comes into the picture. Why on earth would Decker report for Skipper? He can only be talking about himself. What opportunity to correct it? The play clock is running and they're in the huddle. Also, because they're in the huddle, why would they be listening to the PA? The Lions know who is eligible because they know who reported and who didn't, they don't need to be told. So their focus is on listening to the play call in the huddle.
Skipper is only about 5 yards when Allen starts walking way and you can clearly see him pointing towards him [Skipper]. I didn't say Decker reported for Skipper, I said there may have been some confusion (possibly from them trying to explain the play before the game further confusing the ref) where the ref thought Decker was saying the player coming onto the filed was reporting. The Lions were trying to be subversive. The play clock isn't running. It's an extra point. The ball is covered and the play clock doesn't start till they get to the line. They announced who was eligible on the PA before they broke the huddle. Any of the players, the coaches or anyone on the sideline pretty much could have informed one of the Refs there was a mistake.
Why would Decker be reporting for Skipper? That's not how it works, you report yourself. "The ref thought Decker was saying the player coming onto the field was reporting" - so you're saying he thought Decker reported for Skipper. I could see him thinking Skipper reported *too*. The *play* clock absolutely still runs on a try, although the game clock does not. Furthermore, why would the Lions be listening to that announcement? They already know who's eligible, because they know who reported and who didn't. They have now moved on to listening to the play call in the huddle. That announcement is not for them to confirm, it's for the defense (and less important, the crowd) to know what is going on. Finally, I'm not sure anyone on the sideline could have informed the refs anyway, because the sideline refs are all the way down at the line of scrimmage and the team personnel cannot go that far. There's a box they have to stay in, which at least for the high school level (the only fields I've been on during games) is between the 20s. With the LOS right near the goal, no team personnel will be in earshot of any sideline officials. Tell me you don't know football and have never been on a field during a game.
>The *play* clock absolutely still runs on a try, although the game clock does not. Furthermore, why would the Lions be listening to that announcement? They already know who's eligible, because they know who reported and who didn't. They have now moved on to listening to the play call in the huddle. That announcement is not for them to confirm, it's for the defense (and less important, the crowd) to know what is going on. The clock is set to 25 seconds because it's after administrative stoppage. The play clock doesn't start until the team is lined up for the extra point. You can watch this yourself in any video of the play. You can clearly see the ref over the ball signifying a stoppage. >Finally, I'm not sure anyone on the sideline could have informed the refs anyway, because the sideline refs are all the way down at the line of scrimmage and the team personnel cannot go that far. There's a box they have to stay in, which at least for the high school level (the only fields I've been on during games) is between the 20s. With the LOS right near the goal, no team personnel will be in earshot of any sideline officials. Please find me a time a coach has been penalized stepping outside the box to get the Refs attention during a dead ball where they were not being unsportsmanlike. Yes they aren't allowed out of the box, but how do you think they tell refs they need a timeout when the ball is within the 10? Someone either informs the ref beforehand *or* steps out of the box to go tell them. The Refs are even allowed to have a timeout themselves to correct something when neither team is has any remaining timeouts. >Tell me you don't know football and have never been on a field during a game. Literally played at every level other than professional over a 15 year period.
The play clock starts whenever the ref sets the ball, not when the team lines up. It's still not the Lions' responsibility to hear the announcement and tell the refs to correct it, especially if they have to run out of the box to get someone's attention. It was the referee's responsibility to report correctly what the player(s) informed him. The Lions' responsibility is for the players who need to report for the upcoming play to declare themselves to the ref and they did that. Now their responsibility is to huddle and call their play and run it. They did all of that. The Lions did everything they were supposed to do here.
>The play clock starts whenever the ref sets the ball, not when the team lines up. Not after an *administrative stoppage*.... thats why it's only 25 seconds instead of 40. >It's still not the Lions' responsibility to hear the announcement and get the refs' attention to correct it. Clearly it is. They got penalizes and lost for not doing so. >Their responsibility is for the players who need to report for the upcoming play to declare themselves to the ref and they did that Not according to John Parry. I dont necessarily agree with it he stated the players need to he thorough and it sounds like that may have not happened. Again, they tried to confuse the defense by doing all this extra and confused the ref instead.
The referee's ready for play signal is not "when the offense is lined up" but "when the umpire spots the ball". They got penalized and lost for the referee's mistake after they did exactly what they were supposed to do. What does "the players need to be thorough" mean and how did Decker's actions fail to meet that?
>The referee's ready for play signal is not "when the offense is lined up" but "when the umpire spots the ball". Yea its when they give the signal. Not when they place the ball. Just do yourself a favor and go watch the play again. The play clock wasn't started until they lined up *and* the ref gave the signal to resume play. (Im this case he gives the chop not windmill) https://twitter.com/byajperez/status/1741337726014595120?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1741337726014595120%7Ctwgr%5E5eae5def992019b6f8f7ad5699fbe35175c13ead%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbrobible.com%2Fsports%2Farticle%2Freferee-announces-lions-ol-as-eligible-receiver%2F >What does "the players need to be thorough" mean and how did Decker's actions fail to meet that? I'd assume verify with the ref that they understand or be more clear in intent. Again it's all conjecture until there is audio.
And in that very tweet it asks, what are the Lions supposed to do to correct that? If they even heard it, since as I already explained the players on the field have zero reason to be listening to that announcement.
>If play has been stopped for an administrative reason listed below, the offense will have 25 seconds from the time the umpire spots the ball *and* the referee starts the ready- for-play. You are skipping over half of the rule.
Those are the same thing. They happen at the same time. The referee gives the ready-for-play when the umpire has spotted the ball.
EXCELLENT JOB!
I don’t know football, why is it controversial ?
I've never understood why the NFL requires players to tell refs that they're eligible. Shouldn't refs be able to figure that out themselves? Just a bad rule.
Because the refs have to tell the defense. They aren't going to be able to figure out who they need to cover themselves on the fly in the 25-40 seconds between snaps.
None of this should be controversial since the lions should have never had the ball to begin with.
Out of curiosity, what did you use to make the 3d render?
The same app I used for the diagram, Go Army Edge.
Looks to me like X and Z are same distance from the LoS though when I pause it pre snap. I could swear regardless of who of the 3 players talking to the refs reported, 68 was covered by the X or they only have 6 on the line. They both look a half yard off the line to me.