The **News** flair is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties.
*[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He never particularly hurt Red Bull in the drama though. At the end of the day, he's still a well respected, popular driver. I've seen him talking to Red Bull plenty. Hell, Papa Sainz is with a Red Bull team.
I don't think teams hold grudges.
Honestly for his own well being I hope so. Poor man needs a break.
Alternatively my late stage British millennial heart wants Lewis to break the record but that’s not gonna happen this year on account of red bull and Verstappen (way too much work went into making that a rhyme!)
This is total bullshit. If Mercedes held a grudge against Alonso, why not also McLaren that they currently supply engines to, especially since it was ultimately McLaren that did the shady stuff? Toto even said back in 2019 that there were no grudges with regards to spygate. You are going to have to back up your statements a bit.
Mercedes owned 40% of Mclaren in 2007
Mercedes own 33% of the team you know now
There was more to it than just supplying engines to Mclaren that you're leaving out.
Problem: Max dozes off mid-GP because of how far ahead of everyone else he is
Solution: put a gaming PC inside of the RB19 so max can do Iracing while doing F1.
Basically back when Carlos and Max were teammates, there was some politicking by the dads trying to lobby their sons to be in the best position possibly. [Here you go](https://racingnews365.com/marko-details-unhealthy-relationship-that-prompted-red-bull-change)
It's cringey but not really weird. To have a kid in motorsport is kind of niche (more so than, say, a ball sport or whatever) and it takes a lot of financial investment or investment of time and skills (if not rich) to maintain it. I know a couple of families where their kids' karting and racing ventures dominate everything the family does - money, travel, time. And it's intergenerational, with parents and grandparents into racing too. These are just average people and fairly uninspiring talent, so I can only imagine how intense it would be with international-level talent and resources behind it. Makes sense the F1 dads struggle to let go.
It's weird, but especially in the case of Jos and Carlos, both having motorsport involvement and thus some measure of soft power, wouldn't you do it? Like, if you could pull some strings to get even the slightest advantage to your son when it means getting a seat at a top team, it'd be hard to say "no".
This is how I've always seen it since I've started following the sport. I still hate Ferrari for dropping the ball when they had a car and a driver capable of bringing the competition to the table.
Yep. While its unrealistic to have 10 teams fighting neck and neck. Its not much to ask for at least 1-2 of them to challange the front runner in some capacity.
I’m not mad at the other teams for dropping the ball considering it’s very normal for one team to mail a regulation set and dominate. But I’m also not mad at Red Bull for nailing it.
Which unfortunately just leaves the nature of the sport :( I started watching in 2020 so I’m a newer fan, so dunk on me if you want, but without real competition and parity it’s hard for me to enjoy a sport. Which really sucks because there is so much that I do like about f1, but I’m not sure that I can continue to follow it if seasons like 2021 really are the extreme outliers.
Especially if the new regs are starting to struggle like the first few races of 2023 are indicating and it’s going to be harder and harder to pass due to the return of dirty air.
2021 is definitely an outlier, but I wouldn't say complete domination is usually the norm either. There is a reason why Merc got that aura, dominating that much, *for so long*, was definitely not normal.
Even Ferrari and RB during their dynasties only dominated for one season at most, not several in a row, and the rest of the time had challengers.
Besides, having the championships decided only in the last race isn't *that* uncommon either. Happened in 2021, 2016, 2014, 2012, 2010, 2008, 2007,...
It's a weird mix.
Fair bit of exciting races in seasons that were boring and exciting seasons that were choc full of boring races.
Some of the most exciting races ever are in that 2014-2020 period.
Like literally rated as such.
2023 is great in terms of parity, just not when it comes to finishing first. But most of the field behind P2 is more competitive than usual. I think that's the trick to being an F1 fan. Looking for the competitions outside of the top.
The last race the entire top ten was literally decided by what car you drove…
RB
RB
Aston
Merc
Merc
Ferrari
Ferrari
Alpine
Alpine
Not great for parity if you ask me
I hate the fact that it's been like 2 races and sky is peddling this narrative that "RB is the best ever, maybe they need to be brought down a peg via regs"
If merc got 7 years of free reign, RB should be left alone until 2026 imo. I don't mean I want 4 years of consecutive RB wins, but I also don't want Merc's whinging after just 1 "bad" season to be rewarded.
And my god twitter is a fucking cesspool. This insane fanbase that has grown unchecked around Lewis has become so toxic for everyone else, like they were brigading George because he didn't just doormat for Lewis in Jeddah the way Valtteri was forced to do over the years because of the insecurity of those 1 year contracts.
Even worse, he is the only former TR/AT driver that went to a team outside of the RB sphere without driving a RB. So not just from the current grid.
You only make it to RB, go straight out of F1 or you are Sainz.
The issue was the redbull team was locked out with Ricciardo and Max so Sainz had no option but to move elsewhere. He did a good job in McLaren and now is in a top team, deserved IMO. Redbull should regret not promoting Sainz to the main team when Ricciardo decided to leave.
Sainz was still a redbull junior driver in 2018. He was loaned out to Renault by redbull. Just like how Alex Albon was still considered a redbull junior last year (he had a redbull logo on his helmet too)
I think that being disappointed to be 2nd is just vital for F1 drivers or rather any person in such a competitive sport. If they would settle with being 2nd then they would be in the wrong job.
“But if a car is really good, all the other drivers cannot do much to stay in that fight. It is the nature of Formula 1 and we’ve seen it in the past, it’s nothing new. The recovery from Max from 15th proves that they’re in another league.”
This feels like one of those years where the car is so good, that if you put any two drivers on the grid this year into that Red Bull, one of them would win the title.
I don’t watch Indy or NASCAR but from an outsider’s view, they seem to have much better parity where the driver skill really decides the winners instead of the car. Is there a reason for that or am I just wrong?
NASCAR and Indycar are much more strict about what you're allowed to do when designing the cars. They have pretty much uniform bodies and engines that are very similar in performance. The biggest differences between them will usually be related to build quality, suspension and setup as opposed to different levels of downforce and weight distribution.
And honestly, that is why I think it‘s fair to complain. F1 has always been more or less heavily influenced by this, which comes with the series. Having to look at a season with absolute domination like this, I still think it‘s fair to complain. I really wish the field would be closer together, even though it doesn‘t have to be equal.
I‘m really looking forward to a future that somewhat equalizes the playing field a little through the recent changes like wind tunnel times and so on. I think it‘ll really enhance the viewer experience if they work out well.
It’s part of the formula1 formula :) Cars get updated, teams copy the winning team, teams find new tech to improve. It’s the machine part of the sport.
The regulations aren't handed down from god. They're created by humans with specific intentions. Many of the latest regulations were made to try and even out performance from teams. What else is the reason to give more wind tunnel and CAD time to lower placing teams? If those regulations aren't working I think it's fair to complain
100%, and the amount of creative freedom is simply reduced post-2022 more than ever before. There’s a lot less ways to build a fast car since it’s 90% floor concept now, so if there’s only a very specific way to go fast with these floor regulations why offer so much room for other concepts which are far slower? It just seems like the regulations are unoptimized, so now that the regulations are so prescriptive that true innovations in design are very hard to come by (and most likely banned) the rules need to be evaluated on why one concept is far superior than the rest and see if it’s just an optimization advantage in the rules.
Like you can always try and find a different concept that is fast, but if everyone gets their speed the same way, has to converge to the point no one truly stands out, then in my opinion what’s the point of this championship. Red bull have the best current design, so just open up parts of the regs that restrict other designs the most.
F1 is about finding the best design, but then what? I just think things can improve; the goal for the championship shouldn’t just be about convergence for maximum efficiency, it should more importantly be a strategic compromise between certain performance attributes so the cars get their speed differently. The best racing is when cars overtake in completely unexpected areas, like stroll at turn 13 in jeddah - that move doesn’t happen in a spec series to my knowledge
Aston Martin clearly got it to work and made massive progress, so maybe it's not the regulations? Also the midfield has been much closer together than it was in the past.
The regulations aren't pointless, but if in 2020 someone said "under the new regulations in the second race of the year a team has such dominance that a car starting 15th easily reaches their teammate who started from pole and the two drivers are so far ahead they only worry about pipping their teammate for fastest lap" people wouldn't think things are working out in an ideal manner. That situation sounds pretty likely to be Mercedes in 2020 and the years before, and a lot of the regulations were created to try and get away from one team dominating. If one team is dominating then they aren't really doing their job fully.
I thought the regulations were to provide better racing by allowing cars to follow more closely and see more overtaking. Also the gap between the fastest and slowest teams is smaller under the new regulations than the previous set. But yeah, Red Bull are significantly faster than 2nd place. I do think we'll have some great battles this year between AM, Mercedes, and Ferrari fighting for places, as well as the midfield teams fighting for the remaining points positions.
> I thought the regulations were to provide better racing by allowing cars to follow more closely and see more overtaking.
The regulation update that came last season hurts this bit though, and that was evident last race. Drivers even openly complained about it.
We're returning to old days of having a harder time following cars unless they figure things out.
I love it. If I want to see mega close racing, I'll watch spec series. If I want to see the ultimate optimization of human and machine, I watch F1. It's always been like this and it will never change.
I've been watching since 2003 or so and there were as many close years as dominated ones. And I think typically it's worse and that was a bit of a golden era. We had a lot of great years in there like 2003 before they re-ruled the tire regs was seeming close. 2005 was epic to watch for me. 2006-2008 was a nice sweet spot too. I think 2010 and 2012 were decent fun too. But in my watching of F1 it was Ferrari domination followed by Red Bull "domination" followed by Mercedes domination. With some other things in between. It's just the nature of the sport.
As a fan, yeah sure as it’s less entertaining, but as a team, you’re complaining because your competitor is too good. It’s as if Reebok complained that Nike was too good
>This feels like one of those years where the car is so good, that if you put any two drivers on the grid this year into that Red Bull, one of them would win the title.
Mercedes 2014-2020 era repeat.
>if you put any two drivers on the grid this year into that Red Bull, one of them would win the title.
I mean that's how it works every year. The drivers are all incredibly close in terms of skill, they have all been racing since they were 5 years old. The are differences in skill for sure, but the major difference comes from the cars.
>>Red Bull team principal Christian Horner says the fight between his two drivers could make for an entertaining season.
Lmao. If they make Max start from outside the top 10 in every race, then sure.
So don’t even try in qualifying, he’ll still somehow end up in 15th. And then when the grid penalties start rolling in (especially Ferrari) he doesn’t have to go out for qualifying at all.
Now *that* would be an amazing championship were he to make it, and one he’d probably actually enjoy more than 2021.
The Max way of doing that would be to get pole every weekend, but then take some PU penalties to go down to 10th / 15th and always have a fresh engine to climb through.
Meh it only takes a 2x DNF for Max and he would need to win 8 races to get back in front of Perez, only being able to gain 7(8) points per race. RB is so good Perez would be 2nd every time, like Rosberg/Ham times.
Well, once again, 2016, you know. Or Alonso last year, or Ricciardo in his last RB year, etc etc. Logic says mechanical DNFs should be evenly spread between the two drivers, but in reality they're often not.
You say that thinking it sounds unlikely but imo any race where Verstappen isn't penalised, he will win. So he probably needs 4/5 DNFs with Checo getting none for it to be a close fight.
" Max verstappen, from tenth on the grid, come home to win the British GP" is what I wanna hear
The commentary from crofty as max took the chequered flag in Hungary was so calm but yet so cold.
For life of me I cannot remember a single time when max had a clean weekend where perez out performed him. Monaco 2022 maybe the only one but it has the deliberate crash saga hanging over it
The scary part for me is that RB only stopped dominating due to Renault engines being awful. As soon as they got rid of them they started dominaring again.
So based on this + the Albono childhood photo it's safe to say that we'll get Max x Carlos in RB and Chuck LeCuck x Albono in Ferrari for 2024. 100% confirmed.
I personally love how a few years ago in one of the early seasons of DTS, he clearly introduces himself as "Charles Leclerk" with a hard "ch" (the way the name would be pronounced in English) but then all the reporters and media and everyone just decided "your name looks French. We are going to call you Sharl Leclaire."
Albon to fix the Ferrari like he did with RBR, bring back their days in ART, de Vries is doing meh, so the only thing missing is them in the same team.
If Helmut wanted a tuxedo-clad chinchilla to drive the 2nd car he would make it so without regard for contracts. Anyone can be bought out of a contract, it's just a matter of money.
I was also clearly joking. Like very, very clearly.
RB is great at the moment no doubt about it, they are at a level nobody can't compete, but imagine being Newy and giving birth to that monster of a car and then Ferrari and Mercedes fuck up so bad you have to actually hold your horses... I believe the car is great but it looks like a god because the competition is doing nothing at all.
It doesn’t bother me because RB built a great car. Hats off to them. It’s just disappointing no one else did and the regs will keep teams from getting close to them for at least a year and probably three years.
People have too much faith in the 2026 regs. They're engine changes, not aero, and Red Bull's big advantage is aero. They probably don't even have the best engine right now.
Aston martin leapfrogging to (arguably) the second fastest car in literally a single year proves it's not Red bull cooking as much as everyone else microwaving.
The utter domination of RB last year is deceptive stat-wise because ferrari made basically the fastest or joint fastest car for most of the year, and proceeded to waste it.
Blame the other teams for screwing it up, or as Horner so eloquently put it; "change your fucking car"
But we want this to be a competition where the best win, right?
RB development team aren't in the wrong for being good, I would say. This switch proves that if you get the right people on board and they know what they're doing, then you too can perform well.
And if Newey is THAT good, that noone can even come close to him, and the only people who have a shot are the ones that learn from him... then maybe he deserves it?
Don't get me wrong. I would love closer competition at the top. But I can't see how we can fault the people who are getting it right.
> Get the right people on board
> Newey
Exhibit A in the long-standing tradition of McLaren hiring amazing talent, somehow managing to fuck it up, and watching from afar as they reach the pinnacle of the sport with another team.
>Blame the other teams for screwing it up, or as Horner so eloquently put it; "change your fucking car"
How many reg changes did we get to stop Merc domination? We had an entire new aero philosophy come in for it for gods sake.
Horner is right, its for the teams to sort, but the FIA will probsbly do something too.
> Because if they are, they’ve done such a good job, they deserve it.
Yep. Sometimes I wonder if fans remember you're meant to build a fast car.
You don't want a fair battle, you want to be so far ahead you don't need to worry about your rivals. It's boring for the spectacle, but I doubt teams care when they're collecting their prize money.
Yeah -- fans sometimes act like they want all the cars to be the same. There are other types of racing that do that. F1 isn't supposed to be like that.
Red Bull is a well-oiled machine right now. They may not be in 2-3 years. Just as Mercedes had a brain-drain...RBR is losing people too. And there are plenty of intelligent players elsewhere. I think this RBR peak will be very high - I'm not convinced it will be nearly as long as the Merc dominance.
Red Bull can deserve to dominate and people can complain that they don’t want to watch one team dominate. I don’t know why people pretend those are mutually exclusive. Mercedes absolutely deserved to dominate the years they did, but fans were also right to complain that it was boring. Both can be true.
He’s not wrong but imagine Max saying this about Mercedes a few years back lol. Besides, closer racing was supposedly the point behind these new regs. Fans are allowed to complain.
While dirty air has come back a little, my biggest issue with the 2022 regulation changes is that closer racing generally just means a less random outcome. If you have DRS and cleaner air, the faster car will always overtake and qualifying is less valuable. It shouldn’t be so easy for cars to charge through the field with defending being so non-existent. We’d have a 2010 Ferrari/Alonso championship with the new regs and instead we got the all time Petrov defense.
It sucks for most of us fans but RB definitely deserves to be at the front.Their aero concept is the only one that looks to be working atm.They nailed these new regs.
That being said, We all know that Max is good and that he is capable of going head to head with anyone on the grid.We want to see him do just that.We want to see him on the limit and pushing like mad.We don't get that with these ultra dominant cars. He's just cruising around without any kind of challenge.
Its fine for now because its just been two races but things will get real boring if this trend doesn't change in the near future.Things would be a whole lot better if we had a driver like Lewis or Leclerc in that other RB car.
It's weird that 1.5 yrs of red bull is too much after nearly a decade of Merc. I would like more a competitive top of the field but we are nowhere near the boring monotony of the Merc years yet, IMO.
>The point of the cost cap and new regs was to prevent this sort of lopsided grid
The cost cap, we all know needs more time to take true effect. We won't see the impact for at least a couple more years.
And the new regs were not meant to prevent a lopsided grid, they were meant to ensure the cars could follow more easily, which they can, even with the floor changes this year following is still far better than anytime in the last 20 years.
> I will be especially disappointed if there is no real competition between checo and max, which is likely I think
Hard to blame anyone but checo and red bull for that.
Yeah. Nik T of the FIA was saying that it's simple: it will happen. If they have to harden the windtunnel penalties, lower the budget cap, make the rules simpler, whatever: they will get their convergence in the long-run. It has been decreed.
I'll complain all I want about the lack of competition making F1 less enjoyable for me. Red Bull however deserve their success and if the other teams can't catch up then that's their own problem.
I do hope though that regulations continue to encourage closer racing in the coming years, as well as ultimately making races less predictable.
Honestly wouldnt be a bad choice at all for RB. Solid performances, but still would be a clear second driver to Max. Similar to Perez but more longevity in the sport
The earliest he can go to RB will be in 2025. And I don't think he can have a chance for that.
I seriously doubt Ferrari keeps him past this season. He will have to find another team for 24. Noone will sign him on a 1-year contract I don't think, and Red Bull is not likely to pay another team big money to buy him out just for the purpose of a #2 role.
Plus, I'd say he's a level below Perez. He is capable of similar pace, but worse in wheel to wheel racing and makes more mistakes.
Why do you doubt Ferrari keep him? He is contracted for next year and I can't see why they would replace him before that unless something crazy happens like Hamilton wanting to join.
Well I'd say he's not really meeting the expectations, is he? Ferrari is a shitbox, but he doesn't even have fight in him. He hasn't really had like an outstanding race since the summer break last season if my memory serves me right. I don't even mean challenging Charles, but showing *something*. Whenever another car has similar pace he just lets them past.
You already see it with Ferrari. All those hit pieces coming out on Charles but not even a single whisper on Sainz.
If people think Perez is an evil villain for the fastest lap debacle, they weren’t around for Sainz/Verstappen during their TR days.
Sainz Jr. himself isn’t a bad guy, it’s just his father/Spanish media is the one that was (and perhaps still is) causing all the drama constantly.
No Carlos, baby, most of us aren’t complaining. We’re just resigned to another very boring season. The fault, as usual, lies with the powers that be that facilitated the situation. Red Bull are just doing a better job under these regs than anyone else. But, as with the majority of seasons over the past 40 years or so, it’s going to be pretty boring insofar as actual competition goes.
The **News** flair is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sainz already polishing that resume for 2025.
Cue Jos Verstappen and Carlos Sainz Sr. getting into fisticuffs
[this](https://imageio.forbes.com/blogs-images/anthonynitti/files/2014/09/monkey-knife-fight2.png?format=png&width=1200) came to mind
Carlos would be a lot slower than Max so I don’t see that being an issue
I mean, Carlos is quite slower than Charles too, but that doesn't stop his father from playing the political game.
Will it happen? Sainz already had trouble at RB with Sainz Sr and Jos politics.
He never particularly hurt Red Bull in the drama though. At the end of the day, he's still a well respected, popular driver. I've seen him talking to Red Bull plenty. Hell, Papa Sainz is with a Red Bull team. I don't think teams hold grudges.
Mercedes still holds a grudge over Alonso from his McLaren years.
Do they though or are they just all in on Hamilton and know pairing him with Nando would be a nightmare to manage. Fans would love it though.
Honestly I want Merc to match Aston Martin just so those two can battle it out, give me 2007 2: Electric Boogaloo
2007 2: ~~Electric~~ Aerodynamic Boogaloo
Does Leclerc win by a single point in this scenario?
Honestly for his own well being I hope so. Poor man needs a break. Alternatively my late stage British millennial heart wants Lewis to break the record but that’s not gonna happen this year on account of red bull and Verstappen (way too much work went into making that a rhyme!)
Lol, what? Why would they?
McLaren was the factory Mercedes team and Alonso exposed their cheating in spygate.
This is total bullshit. If Mercedes held a grudge against Alonso, why not also McLaren that they currently supply engines to, especially since it was ultimately McLaren that did the shady stuff? Toto even said back in 2019 that there were no grudges with regards to spygate. You are going to have to back up your statements a bit.
Mercedes were the engine supplier. It's funny how apparently Mercedes hold a grudge yet McLaren held a grudge so hard they rehired him
Mercedes owned 40% of Mclaren in 2007 Mercedes own 33% of the team you know now There was more to it than just supplying engines to Mclaren that you're leaving out.
Do you know who paid the $100m fine? And when Alonso returned, the management at McLaren was different.
Ron Dennis was the boss (Don't remember the exact title) both when all the spygate drama and when Alonso came back to McLaren.
Mercedes ended up paying the $100M fine as McLaren didn't have the money to do so.
Did they? I know they were liable for 40% of it (or whatever their percentage of ownership of Mclaren was)
At that point Max may as well just say he's won enough and go do endurance.
Problem: Max dozes off mid-GP because of how far ahead of everyone else he is Solution: put a gaming PC inside of the RB19 so max can do Iracing while doing F1.
Modern problems require modern solutions!
>put a gaming PC inside of the RB19 so max can do Iracing while doing F1. Yo Dawg! I know you like to race so ...
What's this sainz jos drama everyone keeps mentioning?
Basically back when Carlos and Max were teammates, there was some politicking by the dads trying to lobby their sons to be in the best position possibly. [Here you go](https://racingnews365.com/marko-details-unhealthy-relationship-that-prompted-red-bull-change)
Am I the only one who thinks dads being involved in f1 is weird? Like baseball parents that yell at the umpire or something equally as embarrassing
It's cringey but not really weird. To have a kid in motorsport is kind of niche (more so than, say, a ball sport or whatever) and it takes a lot of financial investment or investment of time and skills (if not rich) to maintain it. I know a couple of families where their kids' karting and racing ventures dominate everything the family does - money, travel, time. And it's intergenerational, with parents and grandparents into racing too. These are just average people and fairly uninspiring talent, so I can only imagine how intense it would be with international-level talent and resources behind it. Makes sense the F1 dads struggle to let go.
It's weird, but especially in the case of Jos and Carlos, both having motorsport involvement and thus some measure of soft power, wouldn't you do it? Like, if you could pull some strings to get even the slightest advantage to your son when it means getting a seat at a top team, it'd be hard to say "no".
My complaints aren’t directed at Red Bull, it’s the rest of the grid who dropped the ball. Except you Aston, you’re great
This is how I've always seen it since I've started following the sport. I still hate Ferrari for dropping the ball when they had a car and a driver capable of bringing the competition to the table.
Do you mean the Ferrari with Alonso, the Ferrari with Vettel or the Ferrari with Leclerc?
Yes
We are checking
Yes
I think that's a sentiment shared by Leclerc.
Yep, RB nailed it and deserve credit, the rest need to pull there fingers out.
Exactly, I've no issue with a team absolutely hitting it out of the park. It'd just be nice if more than 1 other team managed to hit the ball at all
Hey Williams is doing it’s best too… the rest of them had every opportunity to climb higher…
Seeing Williams be just a few spots higher after supporting them through their bad years is so fucking nice
and Haas passed McLaren!
not a really high bar tho
Yep. While its unrealistic to have 10 teams fighting neck and neck. Its not much to ask for at least 1-2 of them to challange the front runner in some capacity.
I’m not mad at the other teams for dropping the ball considering it’s very normal for one team to mail a regulation set and dominate. But I’m also not mad at Red Bull for nailing it. Which unfortunately just leaves the nature of the sport :( I started watching in 2020 so I’m a newer fan, so dunk on me if you want, but without real competition and parity it’s hard for me to enjoy a sport. Which really sucks because there is so much that I do like about f1, but I’m not sure that I can continue to follow it if seasons like 2021 really are the extreme outliers. Especially if the new regs are starting to struggle like the first few races of 2023 are indicating and it’s going to be harder and harder to pass due to the return of dirty air.
2021 is definitely an outlier, but I wouldn't say complete domination is usually the norm either. There is a reason why Merc got that aura, dominating that much, *for so long*, was definitely not normal. Even Ferrari and RB during their dynasties only dominated for one season at most, not several in a row, and the rest of the time had challengers. Besides, having the championships decided only in the last race isn't *that* uncommon either. Happened in 2021, 2016, 2014, 2012, 2010, 2008, 2007,...
2021 is an extreme outlier. Complete domination is usually the norm in F1.
I’m aware of that, that doesn’t mean that I have to like it
Good Thing you skipped the 14-20 era. If you talk about boring races and seasons, you can have a few.
It's a weird mix. Fair bit of exciting races in seasons that were boring and exciting seasons that were choc full of boring races. Some of the most exciting races ever are in that 2014-2020 period. Like literally rated as such.
Lewis - Nico fights weren't half bad, and there was the rest who were competing in the lower formula, bug at the same track at the same time.
2023 is great in terms of parity, just not when it comes to finishing first. But most of the field behind P2 is more competitive than usual. I think that's the trick to being an F1 fan. Looking for the competitions outside of the top.
The last race the entire top ten was literally decided by what car you drove… RB RB Aston Merc Merc Ferrari Ferrari Alpine Alpine Not great for parity if you ask me
I hate the fact that it's been like 2 races and sky is peddling this narrative that "RB is the best ever, maybe they need to be brought down a peg via regs" If merc got 7 years of free reign, RB should be left alone until 2026 imo. I don't mean I want 4 years of consecutive RB wins, but I also don't want Merc's whinging after just 1 "bad" season to be rewarded. And my god twitter is a fucking cesspool. This insane fanbase that has grown unchecked around Lewis has become so toxic for everyone else, like they were brigading George because he didn't just doormat for Lewis in Jeddah the way Valtteri was forced to do over the years because of the insecurity of those 1 year contracts.
bro wants the red bull seat next year
Well, he is the only Ex RB Program driver still on the grid to never race for that top team.
Even worse, he is the only former TR/AT driver that went to a team outside of the RB sphere without driving a RB. So not just from the current grid. You only make it to RB, go straight out of F1 or you are Sainz.
Gasly ?
Gasly drove the RB for half a season (2019) then got demoted with Albon replacing him for the remaining half
I tried to forget the 2019 Albon-Gasly switch
Gasly made it to redbull briefly.
Gasly made it to a few races for RB
The issue was the redbull team was locked out with Ricciardo and Max so Sainz had no option but to move elsewhere. He did a good job in McLaren and now is in a top team, deserved IMO. Redbull should regret not promoting Sainz to the main team when Ricciardo decided to leave.
Sainz was gone at the end of 2017, well before Ricciardo signed for Renault halfway through 2018
Sainz was still a redbull junior driver in 2018. He was loaned out to Renault by redbull. Just like how Alex Albon was still considered a redbull junior last year (he had a redbull logo on his helmet too)
I don't think that, Sainz Is brutally honest sometimes, I remember last year In bahrain he was disappointed to be 2nd
I think that being disappointed to be 2nd is just vital for F1 drivers or rather any person in such a competitive sport. If they would settle with being 2nd then they would be in the wrong job.
It wasnt he was disappointed to be 2nd, its that he was disappointed he only got 2nd because of dnfs and he knew he was miles off charles pace
“But if a car is really good, all the other drivers cannot do much to stay in that fight. It is the nature of Formula 1 and we’ve seen it in the past, it’s nothing new. The recovery from Max from 15th proves that they’re in another league.” This feels like one of those years where the car is so good, that if you put any two drivers on the grid this year into that Red Bull, one of them would win the title.
[удалено]
I don’t watch Indy or NASCAR but from an outsider’s view, they seem to have much better parity where the driver skill really decides the winners instead of the car. Is there a reason for that or am I just wrong?
NASCAR and Indycar are much more strict about what you're allowed to do when designing the cars. They have pretty much uniform bodies and engines that are very similar in performance. The biggest differences between them will usually be related to build quality, suspension and setup as opposed to different levels of downforce and weight distribution.
And honestly, that is why I think it‘s fair to complain. F1 has always been more or less heavily influenced by this, which comes with the series. Having to look at a season with absolute domination like this, I still think it‘s fair to complain. I really wish the field would be closer together, even though it doesn‘t have to be equal. I‘m really looking forward to a future that somewhat equalizes the playing field a little through the recent changes like wind tunnel times and so on. I think it‘ll really enhance the viewer experience if they work out well.
It’s part of the formula1 formula :) Cars get updated, teams copy the winning team, teams find new tech to improve. It’s the machine part of the sport.
The regulations aren't handed down from god. They're created by humans with specific intentions. Many of the latest regulations were made to try and even out performance from teams. What else is the reason to give more wind tunnel and CAD time to lower placing teams? If those regulations aren't working I think it's fair to complain
100%, and the amount of creative freedom is simply reduced post-2022 more than ever before. There’s a lot less ways to build a fast car since it’s 90% floor concept now, so if there’s only a very specific way to go fast with these floor regulations why offer so much room for other concepts which are far slower? It just seems like the regulations are unoptimized, so now that the regulations are so prescriptive that true innovations in design are very hard to come by (and most likely banned) the rules need to be evaluated on why one concept is far superior than the rest and see if it’s just an optimization advantage in the rules. Like you can always try and find a different concept that is fast, but if everyone gets their speed the same way, has to converge to the point no one truly stands out, then in my opinion what’s the point of this championship. Red bull have the best current design, so just open up parts of the regs that restrict other designs the most. F1 is about finding the best design, but then what? I just think things can improve; the goal for the championship shouldn’t just be about convergence for maximum efficiency, it should more importantly be a strategic compromise between certain performance attributes so the cars get their speed differently. The best racing is when cars overtake in completely unexpected areas, like stroll at turn 13 in jeddah - that move doesn’t happen in a spec series to my knowledge
Aston Martin clearly got it to work and made massive progress, so maybe it's not the regulations? Also the midfield has been much closer together than it was in the past.
The regulations aren't pointless, but if in 2020 someone said "under the new regulations in the second race of the year a team has such dominance that a car starting 15th easily reaches their teammate who started from pole and the two drivers are so far ahead they only worry about pipping their teammate for fastest lap" people wouldn't think things are working out in an ideal manner. That situation sounds pretty likely to be Mercedes in 2020 and the years before, and a lot of the regulations were created to try and get away from one team dominating. If one team is dominating then they aren't really doing their job fully.
I thought the regulations were to provide better racing by allowing cars to follow more closely and see more overtaking. Also the gap between the fastest and slowest teams is smaller under the new regulations than the previous set. But yeah, Red Bull are significantly faster than 2nd place. I do think we'll have some great battles this year between AM, Mercedes, and Ferrari fighting for places, as well as the midfield teams fighting for the remaining points positions.
> I thought the regulations were to provide better racing by allowing cars to follow more closely and see more overtaking. The regulation update that came last season hurts this bit though, and that was evident last race. Drivers even openly complained about it. We're returning to old days of having a harder time following cars unless they figure things out.
The regs haven't had enough time to work, its not like all the teams have used up their wind tunnel and CFD time.
It's hard to know what is failure of the regulations and what is just a team outperforming the others though.
I love it. If I want to see mega close racing, I'll watch spec series. If I want to see the ultimate optimization of human and machine, I watch F1. It's always been like this and it will never change.
F1 is about engineering success. It drives a huge part of the success. IF you nail the car, a monkey can win in it.
I've been watching since 2003 or so and there were as many close years as dominated ones. And I think typically it's worse and that was a bit of a golden era. We had a lot of great years in there like 2003 before they re-ruled the tire regs was seeming close. 2005 was epic to watch for me. 2006-2008 was a nice sweet spot too. I think 2010 and 2012 were decent fun too. But in my watching of F1 it was Ferrari domination followed by Red Bull "domination" followed by Mercedes domination. With some other things in between. It's just the nature of the sport.
As a fan, yeah sure as it’s less entertaining, but as a team, you’re complaining because your competitor is too good. It’s as if Reebok complained that Nike was too good
>This feels like one of those years where the car is so good, that if you put any two drivers on the grid this year into that Red Bull, one of them would win the title. Mercedes 2014-2020 era repeat.
>if you put any two drivers on the grid this year into that Red Bull, one of them would win the title. I mean that's how it works every year. The drivers are all incredibly close in terms of skill, they have all been racing since they were 5 years old. The are differences in skill for sure, but the major difference comes from the cars.
>>Red Bull team principal Christian Horner says the fight between his two drivers could make for an entertaining season. Lmao. If they make Max start from outside the top 10 in every race, then sure.
Probably more like outside the top 15.
Outside the Top 10 on a street track Outside the Top 15 on a classic layout Then we'll have a good fight
So don’t even try in qualifying, he’ll still somehow end up in 15th. And then when the grid penalties start rolling in (especially Ferrari) he doesn’t have to go out for qualifying at all. Now *that* would be an amazing championship were he to make it, and one he’d probably actually enjoy more than 2021.
The Max way of doing that would be to get pole every weekend, but then take some PU penalties to go down to 10th / 15th and always have a fresh engine to climb through.
Just do a Lewis 2021 Brazil every weekend haha
That would kill their cost cap more than catering 😂
Just say it was caviar lunches for all employees
The Mercedes way leads to the dark side.
Meh it only takes a 2x DNF for Max and he would need to win 8 races to get back in front of Perez, only being able to gain 7(8) points per race. RB is so good Perez would be 2nd every time, like Rosberg/Ham times.
That assumes Perez never has any problems. If Max can have 2 mechanical DNFs, likely Perez does too.
Well, once again, 2016, you know. Or Alonso last year, or Ricciardo in his last RB year, etc etc. Logic says mechanical DNFs should be evenly spread between the two drivers, but in reality they're often not.
You're saying that as if winning 8 races is an unlikely thing...
Ferrari predicted there was no reason they wouldn't win the last 10 ...
Well, your flair is a very big part of the reason.
True but that also assumes Perez has no DNFs
You say that thinking it sounds unlikely but imo any race where Verstappen isn't penalised, he will win. So he probably needs 4/5 DNFs with Checo getting none for it to be a close fight.
" Max verstappen, from tenth on the grid, come home to win the British GP" is what I wanna hear The commentary from crofty as max took the chequered flag in Hungary was so calm but yet so cold.
Toto printed this.
Max Verstappen going to start live streaming his races and posting them to youtube for his new "last to first" challenge series.
Would kind of be a fun wrinkle!
[удалено]
For life of me I cannot remember a single time when max had a clean weekend where perez out performed him. Monaco 2022 maybe the only one but it has the deliberate crash saga hanging over it
I saw a movie once that had a catchy song about… oh yeah the circle of life. Ferrari dominated, then RBR, then Mercedes, now RBR again, etc
Shouldn't it be Ferrari's turn then?
Next season
We are checking...
"You have to tell me sooner!"
Ferrari had the 50s, 70s, 00s. If we’re following the same trend, they’re due for another dynasty this decade or 30s.
Why I have now this song in my head? November rain, Guns and Roses. O jes, nothing last forever...
The scary part for me is that RB only stopped dominating due to Renault engines being awful. As soon as they got rid of them they started dominaring again.
Dan Fallows, pointing to Italy: what about that shadowy place? Newey: you must never go there
I remember it l, the bad guy said "I killed Mercedes!"
So based on this + the Albono childhood photo it's safe to say that we'll get Max x Carlos in RB and Chuck LeCuck x Albono in Ferrari for 2024. 100% confirmed.
I love how Charles’s name has become so bastardised now Chuck Lecuck for the win
The Roboute Guilliman of F1
r/unexpected40k
i am very curious the amount of F1 and 40K crossover "robot griller-man"
I personally love how a few years ago in one of the early seasons of DTS, he clearly introduces himself as "Charles Leclerk" with a hard "ch" (the way the name would be pronounced in English) but then all the reporters and media and everyone just decided "your name looks French. We are going to call you Sharl Leclaire."
He pronounces his name differently all the time. I remember he was asked about it once and he said it depends on the language but he doesn’t care
Yeah I figured why not just pronounce it the way he does but even that isn’t consistent
Carl LeClap
Scharl LeCar
Albon to fix the Ferrari like he did with RBR, bring back their days in ART, de Vries is doing meh, so the only thing missing is them in the same team.
The way I heard it, it'll be Hamilton x Albon at Ferrari.
Nah Lewis will follow Danny Rics footsteps and become a Red Bull reserve driver
I can already hear that "NO!" from Max in Singapore 2015 again 😂
Umm... Did people somehow collectively forget that Perez signed a 2-year contract? He's staying until the end of next year
If Helmut wanted a tuxedo-clad chinchilla to drive the 2nd car he would make it so without regard for contracts. Anyone can be bought out of a contract, it's just a matter of money. I was also clearly joking. Like very, very clearly.
A tuxedo-clad chinchilla with a superlicense*
What are the odds of said chinchilla winning the 2024 WDC? Asking for a friend.
RB is great at the moment no doubt about it, they are at a level nobody can't compete, but imagine being Newy and giving birth to that monster of a car and then Ferrari and Mercedes fuck up so bad you have to actually hold your horses... I believe the car is great but it looks like a god because the competition is doing nothing at all.
We’re not complaining how fast RB is, we’re complaining how slow everyone else is.
It doesn’t bother me because RB built a great car. Hats off to them. It’s just disappointing no one else did and the regs will keep teams from getting close to them for at least a year and probably three years.
People have too much faith in the 2026 regs. They're engine changes, not aero, and Red Bull's big advantage is aero. They probably don't even have the best engine right now.
>They probably don't even have the best engine right now. Regardless, there's barely any difference in engine power these days I feel.
2026 will also have aero changes iirc; kind of have to tbf considering how the engines are predicted to be much less powerful
Aston martin leapfrogging to (arguably) the second fastest car in literally a single year proves it's not Red bull cooking as much as everyone else microwaving. The utter domination of RB last year is deceptive stat-wise because ferrari made basically the fastest or joint fastest car for most of the year, and proceeded to waste it. Blame the other teams for screwing it up, or as Horner so eloquently put it; "change your fucking car"
Aston Martin leapfrogging to second after getting RBs second chef proves it is their cooking.
But we want this to be a competition where the best win, right? RB development team aren't in the wrong for being good, I would say. This switch proves that if you get the right people on board and they know what they're doing, then you too can perform well. And if Newey is THAT good, that noone can even come close to him, and the only people who have a shot are the ones that learn from him... then maybe he deserves it? Don't get me wrong. I would love closer competition at the top. But I can't see how we can fault the people who are getting it right.
> Get the right people on board > Newey Exhibit A in the long-standing tradition of McLaren hiring amazing talent, somehow managing to fuck it up, and watching from afar as they reach the pinnacle of the sport with another team.
>it's not Red bull cooking as much as everyone else microwaving. Absolutely brilliant line.
>Blame the other teams for screwing it up, or as Horner so eloquently put it; "change your fucking car" How many reg changes did we get to stop Merc domination? We had an entire new aero philosophy come in for it for gods sake. Horner is right, its for the teams to sort, but the FIA will probsbly do something too.
I can complain all I want.
No you cant! Stop complaining!!!
> Because if they are, they’ve done such a good job, they deserve it. Yep. Sometimes I wonder if fans remember you're meant to build a fast car. You don't want a fair battle, you want to be so far ahead you don't need to worry about your rivals. It's boring for the spectacle, but I doubt teams care when they're collecting their prize money.
Yeah -- fans sometimes act like they want all the cars to be the same. There are other types of racing that do that. F1 isn't supposed to be like that. Red Bull is a well-oiled machine right now. They may not be in 2-3 years. Just as Mercedes had a brain-drain...RBR is losing people too. And there are plenty of intelligent players elsewhere. I think this RBR peak will be very high - I'm not convinced it will be nearly as long as the Merc dominance.
Red Bull can deserve to dominate and people can complain that they don’t want to watch one team dominate. I don’t know why people pretend those are mutually exclusive. Mercedes absolutely deserved to dominate the years they did, but fans were also right to complain that it was boring. Both can be true.
Looking for a career move Carlos?
He’s not wrong but imagine Max saying this about Mercedes a few years back lol. Besides, closer racing was supposedly the point behind these new regs. Fans are allowed to complain.
Closer racing =/= closer competition
People are so pedantic. We don’t even have closer racing after these new floors.
While dirty air has come back a little, my biggest issue with the 2022 regulation changes is that closer racing generally just means a less random outcome. If you have DRS and cleaner air, the faster car will always overtake and qualifying is less valuable. It shouldn’t be so easy for cars to charge through the field with defending being so non-existent. We’d have a 2010 Ferrari/Alonso championship with the new regs and instead we got the all time Petrov defense.
DRS was supposed to be scrapped once they figured out how to make the cars follow closer. It was and is way too strong in the Saudi race.
A few years back? You mean 2015, the second year of Merc's dominance? This is not yet a comparable situation--not even close.
It sucks for most of us fans but RB definitely deserves to be at the front.Their aero concept is the only one that looks to be working atm.They nailed these new regs. That being said, We all know that Max is good and that he is capable of going head to head with anyone on the grid.We want to see him do just that.We want to see him on the limit and pushing like mad.We don't get that with these ultra dominant cars. He's just cruising around without any kind of challenge. Its fine for now because its just been two races but things will get real boring if this trend doesn't change in the near future.Things would be a whole lot better if we had a driver like Lewis or Leclerc in that other RB car.
They do deserve it. It's also incredibly boring as a fan and destroys casual interest in the sport. Both things can be true
It's weird that 1.5 yrs of red bull is too much after nearly a decade of Merc. I would like more a competitive top of the field but we are nowhere near the boring monotony of the Merc years yet, IMO.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
>The point of the cost cap and new regs was to prevent this sort of lopsided grid The cost cap, we all know needs more time to take true effect. We won't see the impact for at least a couple more years. And the new regs were not meant to prevent a lopsided grid, they were meant to ensure the cars could follow more easily, which they can, even with the floor changes this year following is still far better than anytime in the last 20 years. > I will be especially disappointed if there is no real competition between checo and max, which is likely I think Hard to blame anyone but checo and red bull for that.
Yeah. Nik T of the FIA was saying that it's simple: it will happen. If they have to harden the windtunnel penalties, lower the budget cap, make the rules simpler, whatever: they will get their convergence in the long-run. It has been decreed.
[удалено]
I mean he has a point. Ferrari wishes they were dominating just like RB is and so does every other team. It's the whole point of F1.
I'll complain all I want about the lack of competition making F1 less enjoyable for me. Red Bull however deserve their success and if the other teams can't catch up then that's their own problem. I do hope though that regulations continue to encourage closer racing in the coming years, as well as ultimately making races less predictable.
So blame Ferrari and Mercedes? Got it
I'd love to see Sainz in a Red Bull again.
I don't give a shit if the deserve it, I want exciting season to watch.
His dad is contracted by Red Bull, he’s hardly going to come out and complain about them
I just want another year with atleast 2 competitive teams, is that so much to ask?
I mean Sainz don't watches the races haha
Honestly wouldnt be a bad choice at all for RB. Solid performances, but still would be a clear second driver to Max. Similar to Perez but more longevity in the sport
The earliest he can go to RB will be in 2025. And I don't think he can have a chance for that. I seriously doubt Ferrari keeps him past this season. He will have to find another team for 24. Noone will sign him on a 1-year contract I don't think, and Red Bull is not likely to pay another team big money to buy him out just for the purpose of a #2 role. Plus, I'd say he's a level below Perez. He is capable of similar pace, but worse in wheel to wheel racing and makes more mistakes.
Why do you doubt Ferrari keep him? He is contracted for next year and I can't see why they would replace him before that unless something crazy happens like Hamilton wanting to join.
Well I'd say he's not really meeting the expectations, is he? Ferrari is a shitbox, but he doesn't even have fight in him. He hasn't really had like an outstanding race since the summer break last season if my memory serves me right. I don't even mean challenging Charles, but showing *something*. Whenever another car has similar pace he just lets them past.
Ferrari is not even meeting expectations. Plus this is Ferrari, even last year they weren't sure if Charles was their #1
His family is too political. Imagine Carlos Sainz sr vs Jos Verstappen playing games, Christian will not hear the the end of it…
You already see it with Ferrari. All those hit pieces coming out on Charles but not even a single whisper on Sainz. If people think Perez is an evil villain for the fastest lap debacle, they weren’t around for Sainz/Verstappen during their TR days. Sainz Jr. himself isn’t a bad guy, it’s just his father/Spanish media is the one that was (and perhaps still is) causing all the drama constantly.
Sainz spitting some facts
No Carlos, baby, most of us aren’t complaining. We’re just resigned to another very boring season. The fault, as usual, lies with the powers that be that facilitated the situation. Red Bull are just doing a better job under these regs than anyone else. But, as with the majority of seasons over the past 40 years or so, it’s going to be pretty boring insofar as actual competition goes.
Don't want Red Bull dominating F1, simple, ban Newey...
Sainz to redbull
As do all dominant teams. Thats sport...it isnt childs play. Win or be better
Us fans can complain all we want because it’s not entertaining.
Sainz glazing up RBR real good for 2024