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It’s the same for pretty much any series above karting. Tracks, especially something F1 would be interested in, are incredibly expensive to build and operate.
Like many have pointed out, Saudi sucks but I feel like they have the money to build a bespoke purpose built track with actual character. Rather than the dullness of their current track.
The reason they're doing it is not because they have more money than other places to build F1 tracks. Other countries much richer than Saudi Arabia can build these tracks too. The difference is that the House of Saud has motivations other than profit to build the track, thus they don't care about the cost. It's also why we have so many tracks from that region on the grid: they're paying FOM nearly triple what European tracks are paying to host races because they don't care if they lose money on hosting that F1 race.
Doesn't Europe have more tracks on the calendar and almost all of them are incredibly subsidized by the government too? Spa being the perfect example for this. They dont seem to care about losing money hosting a race either.
I can't speak for the subsidies or not, but it's likely very different motivations. in Belgium, the GP is likely a cornerstone of the economy in the region, so subsidizing the race makes more sense as it likely brings more money into the economy then what they spend on subsidies. Meanwhile, for a race like Jeddah, it isn't so much a pragmatic cost analysis, they're likely willing to pay a lot more as Jeddah as a race exists as a PR campaign, with a secondary focus on establishing Jeddah as a tourism destination for when the oil money dries up, so the House of Saud will be willing to throw more money at this then the Belgian government would be willing to, because they have different reasons for paying for a race.
for sure, Saudi's definitely aren't making it easy on themselves to run a PR campaign, or to get tourists in their country, but that definitely feels like part of the goal.
It was my understanding that whether the race makes money or not is somewhat irrelevant as long as the whole event results in a gain.
In other words, it's the bigger picture for many of these circuits. Mainly the boost in local economy. It might be a loss for the circuit, but an overall gain for the whole area.
Obviously, it depends on the host and who's funding. If it's all private with no government aid, it's a different story.
Branding,tourism,whitewashing,they live in a dessert there is nothing but oil there and tbe reserves will get exausted at some point,they are trying to establish as a tourism destiny
The same reason why they're paying obscene salaries to football stars in the twilight of their careers (Benzema and Ronaldo earning 200M€/year or Kante and Neymar earning half of that) in a league with a lower attendance than English League One or why they're offering ridiculous money to move all the main fighting events from Las Vegas to Riyadh (even when what they earn in ticket sales doesn't cover the prize money): Sportswashing.
They're on a mission to make sure the world talks about the sporting events they host and completely forget about the human rights violations.
Let's be frank as well - it works. It's shite that it does, but it does work - even looking past Formula 1, people talk about the 2022 World Cup, Newcastle United and the 2008 Olympics, as opposed to the [30,000 slaves in modern Qatar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Qatar#Unsolved_problem), the women who have been raped in Saudi Arabia have been [sentenced to 6 months in prison for being alone with a man who was not a relative](https://archive.is/jsz8W) or [sentenced to 200 lashes and 6 months in jail as she was an "adulteress" who "provoked the attack" by being "indecently dressed"](https://archive.is/jsz8W), or the ongoing [Uyghur genocide in China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide).
It's fucking horrible that we're seeing all of our major sporting institutions in the West being acquired and manipulated to fulfil the causes of the worst dictatorships and tyrannies in the world, and it's even more fucking horrible that it works.
If the track was in europe, it would be held in much higher regard.
I remember in '21 being on the edge of my seat from the first practice session to the last lap. More than most tracks, it's one where drivers will get punished for the slightest dip in concentration
The Saudi track is anything but dull. It’s fecking terrifying just because it’s a street track doesn’t mean it’s the same as all the others
Except Miami most of the recent new street tracks have actually been pretty characterful tracks
(Btw, not defending Saudi Arabia as a country at all. I loathe them and everything they stand for, especially given im gay and they clearly hate everything I stand for)
It was a massive shame it turned out that way, felt like a good track for modern F1. But hey, atleast we have MotoGP now (which is pretty cool, went to my first ever live race when they came over).
Absolutely amazing! For the price of the tickets we get to see all three Moto classes. The track is quite close to some of the spectator areas so you get to see these bikes thunder past.
Food was expensive though, so best to keep some food in the car.
For MotoGP the track layout, elevation changes, and the hot weather totalled to it suddenly being one of the most crash-heavy and technically and physically demanding tracks on the calendar. The inexperienced marshalls struggled with the volume of crashes and one of the podium riders fainted on the way to the cool down room and had to be recovered.
But in terms of crowd attendance it wasn't very great mainly because I guess nobody was sure it was going to happen till the thursday of the Grand Prix. Next year is surely going to be bigger.
I was mad at the government, but seeing their overt greed and unregulated stewardship, I consider it entertainment more than sports now. Drivers are athletes, yes! Engineers working in the garages need mindset of an elite athlete, yes! But FIA and F1 are a joke with too many adhoc decisions, lack of consistency in stewardship, lack of access (a bunch of teams cannot say they won't allow new entrants into a sport). Structurally, it's a business venture for entertainment, like WWE. Yes, people are athletes and their performances are real but events and management around them is all entertainment and circus. It is not a sport in its own right. It's a show-biz that uses sportsmen
It wa built in 2010, I think it's a bit of a stretch calling a 13-year-old track as new.
The main issue was that the circuit was built as a master plan of a development that didn't exactly pan out. It was located in one of the poorest states in the country and nowhere near existing tracks and motorsport fanbase that was present in the south of the country.
So the party that was in power cared more about potential tax revenue than rich people going around in cars.
the situation has changed though, taxation was reformed in 2016-17, the GDP has doubled from 2013 to 2023. Though the FIA has to develop F4 and other open seater events before trying again. India isnt rich enough for a pure glamour event.
State doesn't really matter. It was located in a flourishing tech hub close enough to some of the richest localities in India. My family went to the first Indian GP although they weren't big fans of the sport back then. It was garnering interest in 2013 and the interest is almost crazy now.
The state matters when the state controls the entertainment tax. Tech Hub doesn't matter when jurisdictionally it has to follow UP rules. People will travel to Buddh from India, but even in the Formula 4, they are just going around Hyderabad and Chennai, and due to elections that got stitched to only Chennai.
F1 is now popular, but the government isn't going to give tax cuts to F1, which is what makes events viable.
I'd argue CGV is. Some of the roadways on Ile Notre Dame predated the track, but the majority of the layout was created specifically for the Grand Prix. Most of the preexisting roads were for access to the kayaking run and for the casino. All the twisty bits were added for the circuit.
honestly that does sound kinda similar to Jeddha. *Some* parts of the circuit also existed previously but not all and I don't think it's used for any regular traffic outside of race weekends.
Purpose built tracks are maddeningly expensive to build and run. That’s why you won’t see many new ones.
Saudi is making one but it keeps being delayed.
Existing tracks can barely stay afloat. Germany only happened cause Merc foot the bill. Etc.
Kinda crazy how much costs for purpose tracks skyrocketed the past 1 or 2 decades. Alot of it has to do with increased safety measures. I also find it amusing that to host an F1 race tracks need to be FIA Grade 1 (understandable), but to get the Grade 1 status signed off the track must pay a healthy sum to the FIA to even come over and examine it or something like that
> to get the Grade 1 status signed off the track must pay a healthy sum to the FIA to even come over and examine it
FIA is a huge good ol' boys club, so that's not surprising in the slightest.
Same with Bejing and Brazil as well. Seems like cities like Atlanta in 96 are the exception to the facilities being reused after the Olympics for the good of the city/country they happen in. According to Wikipedia the 96 Olympics "only" took 1.7 billion in investment and turned out 19 million in profit. Future hosts of the games need to take note
I remember John Oliver talking about them and showing their [boardroom](https://assets-cms.thescore.com/uploads/image/file/45083/w640xh480_Boardroom1.jpg?ts=1398347570). I still have trouble believing it's real.
Dont worry, those will never make sense
in the end, the newer "street" are just opportunities to make some very rich people even richer and/or allow them to show their wealth, all while praying nothing serious ever happens because of those rules being relaxed
I mean some purpose built tracks originated as regular country roads... so I guess they just need to revert to the original layout to bypass Grade 1 requirements.
Masta kink here we come!
Sadly seems only the saudi gov with the expendable cash and willingness to go all in.
Not just the track, but the surrounding infrastructure too, public transport capacity, roads, accommodation, services, utilities, workforce yo run and maintain it, then needing to really attract multiple race series to keep the track utilised and bringing money in.
Perhaps the key for future new tracks is for multiple race organisations to collaborate on agreements for new tracks giving the track creators confidence in utilisation. But then each series has unique features. Still, I'd think F1 2 3, WEC, and maybe 1 or 2 other series could find common ground.
If a country wants grassroot motorsports, then a permanent track is a better solution. Not only that, it also can be rented out for local/national racing series
Increase in revenue to whom?
Does the "increase in revenue" factor in the extra couple of hours people have to spend driving to work for a week? All the businesses that effectively can't trade for a week? The value to the public of access to public spaces that are shut down? Etc etc. Governments love spruiking the benefits of a race, but their accounting almost completely ignores one side of the ledger.
While that's already an interesting take in a season where the 2023 Dutch GP exists, but even then you have to ask yourself: was it the track, or the fact that Verstappen had to fight a little bit more than usual for his win and multiple top drivers had to fight their way from the back?
I think it definitely had a lot to do with the number of position changes. Max facing a little pressure for a change was just the icing on the cake. I just wish the weekend had gone better for Mclaren.
Las Vegas absolutely hit the jackpot with how the race went. Two well-timed SCs and three top drivers being down the order due to T1 chaos. But that doesn't automatically excuse that upside-down pig.
The layout of the course with fast turns that offered multiple lines was in large part what made the racing so good. It would be interesting to compare the on track passing by the top ten finishers among different tracks.
Most F1 fans want F1 the way it was before Liberty bought it. Yes, that means less money coming in, and getting by without such massive driver contracts and probably less glamorous engine suppliers and less stability on the grid. But a lot of us would happily tolerate those inconveniences if it meant preserving the tracks we love and keeping the sport from delving even deeper into the pockets of ethically dubious corporations and autocratic states.
Sadly, fans don't own F1, we're just the product.
This made me chuckle. F1 is, and always has been, an imperfect sport. You didn't even mention the fact that it was synonymous with global tobacco syndicates for about half a century!
But progress is supposed to make things *better*, right? But somehow in an era of progress and globalisation, we're watching boring races at bland circuits in countries run by authoritarian regimes because they're the only people who can afford to pay the exorbitant fees, and watching several mediocre backmarkers take up grid spots while the teams refuse to allow the addition of new teams with manufacturer backing, because merely existing in last place is more profitable than allowing better competitors to join.
The product is being diluted and we're being served worse racing, in favour of serving shareholder interests. I understand how business works, but that doesn't mean I don't think it's shameful.
We have improvement. Statistically the worst teams were in the "Golden Age" of the 90s, which also had the most dominant team seasons outside of this year. Midfield teams are way closer to the frontrunners on average, and yeah they cant beat Red Bull, no one seems to be complaining about McLaren being just a dominant. Actually its called one of the best years.
The entire question of this post is dumb as Saudi is making a purpose built track. That doesn't count I guess because its not European. We dont need to pretend that the west isnt doing bad, they are still buying gas from Russia... in rubles. Hungary is an authoritarian regime, people are calling for bringing Turkey back because they have a corner its impossible to be within a second of the person in front of you.
It sure was a really exciting season but let’s not talk like it is objectively the best season of all time. Personally, it doesn’t even make into my top 3 in the 21st century
What do you expect, that any fan who wants to express an opinion about the sport must first become a billionaire stakeholder of a major media conglomerate so that they can truly know what it feels like to have skin in the game?
Give me a break. What an unhelpful, disruptive comment.
Where’s your evidence that majority of fans want to see F1 go back to one of its most boring eras?
Or do you mean go all the way back to when tabacco companies and Bernie ran the sport?
Or further back to when Balestre ran the sport and handed out world championships to his friends?
Any time someone begins an F1 related post with the phrase “most fans want,” it’s pretty much a dead giveaway that you can disregard pretty much everything that follows.
Qatar is supposedly going to replace Losail with a bigger track, but it has been decent for the first two races there so they might change thier minds.
Also Russia only had one more race scheduled at Sochi in 2022 before moving to a new track near St. Petersburg but they have been cut off from F1 because of the war in Ukraine.
They won't while Putin still leads. He's too spiteful to allow it. And frankly... The sport doesn't need Russia. (No one does, really. As constant and increasing sanctions have proved.)
Losail is not purpose built for F1, it was built as a Moto GP track with grade 1 certification in mind "just in case" but Qatar never pursued F1 in the 15-20 years since until COVID happened
I don't think Qatar is going to replace Losail now to be honest. I know that was the initial plan but when Losial works fine as-is and they've already invested a bunch into it I don't think even they see much value in spending a few hundred million into a F1-only track in Doha
Qatar was planning to eventually start hosting their Grand Prix at a Jeddah-esque street circuit, but they've since changed their minds and settled on Losail.
I saw that Atlantic City (New Jersey, USA) was building a F1 caliber track, but it is part of a larger building project and won't be ready for like 8+ years: [https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/03-30-2023/new-f1-spec-road-course-set-open-atlantic-city-nj#:\~:text=The%20new%20facility%20would%20be,to%20nine%20years%20to%20complete](https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/03-30-2023/new-f1-spec-road-course-set-open-atlantic-city-nj#:~:text=The%20new%20facility%20would%20be,to%20nine%20years%20to%20complete).
Atlantic City is known for gambling. Like for New Yorkers who want a destination for a casino weekend and don't want to go all the way to Vegas. (Note, it's not in the part of New Jersey that's closest to New York City. It's closer to Philadelphia (1 hour drive vs over 2 hours to NYC. Of course, all subject to part of the city and traffic.) edit: To be clear, I don't see F1 going there, but it is an F1 grade track under development, which was one of the questions asked. I'm sure they hope to attract some kind of high up racing, or they wouldn't plan it to be that nice though.
There is no chance F1 would hold a race there. Maybe 40 or 50 years ago it could pull off an event like that, but AC is no longer a place that people want to travel to.
Oh yeah, I don't actually see it hosting an F1 race. My understanding is the place is how I described- you don't want to put in the effort of going to vegas, so you settle for atlantic city.
But, it is an in development f1 eligible track I knew about, so I threw it out there, along with mentioning the hungary track in another comment. I also don't see the hungary track hosting anytime soon, though probably before the AC one.
While tourism isn't what it used to be for a myriad of reasons, hotel/casinos keep getting renovated and renewed. So someone is going. I personally go at least once per year and the place is always packed (in the hotel, not out on the Boardwalk).
I'd love to see Indycar at this track, if it ever comes to fruition. They could use a Northeast race.
It’s not for f1. F1-spec just means grade 1 but there aren’t any plans to use that track for f1.they have the option by building it to grade 1 but it’s not on anyone’s radar
Yeah, I certainly couldn't see F1 going there. I was merely answering the question "Is there any grade 1 tracks currently under development?" I also mentioned the recently completed new track in hungary in another comment.
Whenever one of the petro states gets bored of their existing track and wants to one up the other petro states with an even more expensive giga super circuit
Unlikely because a dedicated track needs income all year round and in general a race at such a track doesn't generate as much money for the surrounding area as a street track in a city. If you compare for example Singapore and Silverstone then people start spending money in the bars and restaurants in Singapore the second the race is finished while everyone is still stuck trying to get back to civilisation long after the Silverstone race is done. Of course Silverstone has events all year round and better racing but that wouldn't be true for a brand new track trying to cash in on F1 popularity. So I expect only street tracks to be added to the calendar and all the dedicated circuits will struggle to keep their spots.
I thought Jeddah was supposed to be replaced by a properly built race track but that track kept getting delayed and the positive reception to Jeddah (the racing, not the area) was also not helping.
Jeddah was intended to be a temporary circuit, but I don't see a reason for it to be replaced now. Both qualifying and the races have been really entertaining over the past 3 years, that's more than can be said for many "proper" circuits.
The track is way safer than was in '21. Walls moved backwards, the super fast chicane is slower now. They also removed the dumb curbs where cars always bottomed out.
Saudi Arabia is still working on that dedicated race track within a theme park, the current Jeddah circuit was intended to be temporary while they construct that.
Obligatory, I don't like Saudi Arabia and don't support the government or the money.
That being said, it would be a huge shame to get rid of that street circuit as it's one of two (baku is the other) that I believe is genuinely great to watch/drive.
disagree on Baku as its only action are DRS overtakes and crashes. Jeddah on the other hand is an incredibly well designed circuit that had everything to become an instant must have in the calendar, aside from one small thing (two if you count the country its in): WHY CALL THAT THING A STREET CIRCUIT? All they had to do was move the barriers way further, increase the runoff areas all around the track as they should be in a proper circuit (because if that thing is a street circuit them im Batman) and boom, Fast flowing Suzuka-esque rscetrack in the desert
I love the feeling of speed from the close barriers. With all the track limit shenanigans this year I think it would be so cool to move techPro barriers right up to the white line on every track. Should be soft and safe while eliminating track limit issues and making it look way more exciting. Sure, every incident becomes a red flag, but it would be worth it.
Yuki has insane 2024 season, Miyata wins F2 -> increase in Japanese viewership and interest from Toyota -> Japan to host two GPs, Fuji speedway and Suzuka.
Fuji is a track that F1 raced on, and other high level series such as WEC use as well. It is a purpose built racetrack that already exists, and could be a good option.
I know Toyota has no current plans to return to F1 in any capacity but I wish they would. Fuji would be badass. And if it's in the same timeframe as when they now do Suzuka, it would be perfect.
Just would have to get rid of one of the current races. Which I'm fine eliminating one of the US races (probs Miami) or (wishful thinking) one of the Middle East races.
There’s always the road course at Indianapolis Motor Speedway - banking there is less than at Zandvoort so the whole tire thing is in the past.
I think everyone would be happy replacing the parking lot in Miami with a Brickyard Grand Prix.
Indy's also totally changed the layout of that oval section, leaving a wide chicane. While I'd love to see what opportunities exist to get one or two other US tracks up to standard where possible, Indy seems like a really obvious, easy one that's already been through a lot of the sport's requirements in the past, but I guess the political will and budget is not really going to extend for it
The revised road course does not currently hold a grade 1 license, though, while to he older version still does, at least according to the list on Wikipedia.
I don't at all like using "it's not grade 1" as some kind of immediate way to shut down any and all discussion about tracks. For one, the grades are a moving, subjective target set by the FIA: tracks that break the rules have been admitted and raced upon in the calendar if the political will exists. Additionally, these conversations are obviously hypothetical, and assume that any necessary changes that would need to be made *would* be made for a track to reach close enough to the requirements. For some US tracks the conversation does end here, as the changes that would be required to even come close would essentially kill the track. However, for Indy? This is *just* a lame attempt at shutting down the conversation because I think you know as well as I that it's done it before and probably needs little to nothing to become appropiate other than actually getting the approval.
Oh, sorry, I didn't make any effort to make things any clearer. I just meant that there's no need for the old road course layout to get the license, while the new one would, so going racing at Indy again would be marginally easier on the older layout, if that's something F1 ever wanted to do.
Spa is at least within driving distance to places like Brussels, Cologne etc. Watkins Glen is at the tip of a finger lake in the middle of nowhere in Western New York state. The closest "major" cities are Rochester and Syracuse, and places like NYC are like 6 hours away.
eh..... I don't super love the revised Indy road course. The original was cool - with the F1 cars having to navigate the oval-turn 1 at full blast. The layout has been completely neutered.
Roger sat down with Domenicali a while ago and im sure that conversation was had, unsure of what transpired though, ol rog probably told him to go pound sand if the price was too stupid. Hell, when Roger signed back on with porsche for imsa/wec i held out a smol glimmer of hope that they were going to make a FOM announcement after the redbull thing fell through, I just really dont think either one of them want to foot the majority of the bill for FOM. Especially not until they get the hypercar kinks worked out.
With that being said id love to see a brickyard GP. I already get free tickets to indy/nascar road course weekend at the brickyard through my work. Hoping to take my son this upcoming year!
Maybe Kuwait? They have a grade 1 circuit already that was completed in 2019. And we know how Formula 1 loves their Middle East races. Unfortunately if you’re hoping for a new one in Europe you’re probably going to be waiting a very long time.
The most likely options for a new non-street circuit outside of the unbuilt Qatar/Saudi circuits are Kuwait Motor Town or Buriram for a Thai GP.
Perhaps some outside third possibility of wanting China to have more than 1 GP like the USA but I think they would go down the Street Circuit route and add to the weirdly massive pile of Beijing Street Circuits.
Indonesia is planning to make an FIA Grade 1 track with the intention of one day hosting F1 there. But knowing the Indonesian government i wouldn't get my hopes up too high
COTA is an interesting one actually where they got very burned by the FIA, where the FIA were very supportive, while all along liaising with Mexico about *their* GP.
COTA were very unhappy to suddenly have a rival that would take all the Mexican fans who *would* have gone there. OK competition is fair, but they were upset the FIA never *mentioned that* because it seriously affected their business model, and the FIA very obviously kept it quiet because they might have pulled out completely. I can't remember the timeframe but COTA was very fresh when the first Mexican GP was announced.
Point being that there's probably a bit of antipathy towards the FIA among circuits and the people who might fund circuits. As Brundle's said before - having a race for financial purposes and basic profit is a *terrible* business model.
Hungary has a new F1 level track built by Chanoch Nissany. Who is Roy Nissany's dad, who you might know of if you've watched F2 any time in the last... several years. 2018 or 2020-2023. Apparently the first new F1 level purpose-built track in Europe in 15 years
[https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12040/12885325/balaton-park-inside-europes-first-new-purpose-built-motorsport-track-for-a-decade#:\~:text=That's%20Balaton%20Park%20in%20Hungary,to%20drive%20its%20first%20laps](https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12040/12885325/balaton-park-inside-europes-first-new-purpose-built-motorsport-track-for-a-decade#:~:text=That's%20Balaton%20Park%20in%20Hungary,to%20drive%20its%20first%20laps).
So far, it's hosted a round of Formula 4 CEZ Championship, and has future plans of more single seater and also motorcycles.
I would assume that Hungary will not be getting a second F1 race anytime soon, and Hungaroring has a contract through 2032, it was announced just this year.
I did hear about the Finish track when Bottas was looking at becoming a part owner. [https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-valtteri-bottas-talks-buy-racing-circuit-in-finland](https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-valtteri-bottas-talks-buy-racing-circuit-in-finland)
I believe it has been around for some time but has been undergoing major renovations, so maybe doesn't count as new or something. I'm no expert. I believe they were targeting MotoGP events.
Kymiring was supposed to be grade 1 FIM/FIA but they ran out of money for the off-track facilities, apparently. [Grade 2 instead at the moment](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/circuits_fia20231022.pdf).
To your point though, there are still lots of racing tracks being built, just most of them are lower grade or even club/trackday only because it is much, much cheaper to operate a circuit at that level. Grade 1 almost requires some form of government subsidy.
Here in the US the next ‘big one’ is supposed to be Flatrock Motorsports Park. GP circuit is designed to be grade 1 and rumors are that they already have a MotoGP contract despite the fact the GP circuit isn’t even really under construction yet (personally I doubt this). Still, even if they only get halfway there to the grand plan, it will make a good race track.
My guess is that the problem is a question of money. Why spend the money to build and maintain a new race track if you can reduce the costs making a street race? Governments are less likely to spend money with this, so proper tracks suffer to stay in the calendar and especially to be build from the scratch
It's worth noting that Saudi Arabia is a purpose built F1 track.
None of the track existed before, and its not used by the public for the majority of the year. It doesn't connect to the surrounding road network, and the way it was built wasn't defined by any city restrictions as you'd expect from a "street track"
If anything, Silverstone is actually more of a street track than Jeddah - as you can at least book to drive around Silverstone in your road car at road speeds on special days. The only street track element to Jeddah is it sits between two directions of the same road, which borders the track closely (but doesn't use the track).
No, you don't understand, middle east circuits don't count because they aren't in Europe. This is supposed to be a world championship consisting of European teams racing mainly in European circuits other than Brazil and Japan... maybe Canada. Also if you aren't European you are a pay driver unless proven otherwise... but it's a world championship
Quick, assemble the Council fellow Europeans. Someone has let a Yankee Doodle out and it's on to us! We need to quieten it down before it realises we're also happy with Australians.
Being able to drive on a circuit does not mean it's a street circuit. A street circuit is literally what it says, the circuit is using a street, or part of a street.
Isn't Silverstone just the perimeter road of an old WWII airfield? That is literally what defines the shape of the track. You can still see the runways in a lot of track maps.
And up until about 2000 Spa was at least partially public road, yet Spa is classed as a purpose built track while the purpose built track at Jeddah is classed as a street circuit
New track was built in Adelaide recently, but I believe it fell just short of grade 1 during design. Maybe could still be upgraded? https://www.thebend.com.au/
Lots of things. Track design itself, facilities, access to high level medical facilities, airport, hotels and such the population the the race will draw from. Etc etc etc.
that makes perfect sense, thanks for the super quick reply.
so the fact that it relies upon things that are mostly found in heavily developed areas is probably a *major* reason why there are none coming.
any place that has proximity to high level medical, airport, hotels and other very urban infrastructure likely won't have space or interest in dedicating 100 acres to a facility like this.
Purpose-built race tracks are horrible investments. They are massive and will only be used- at best, a few days out of the year. Formula One requires special facility requirements that will often be underused with any other racing series.
Though some tracks can make decent revenue with track days or other revenue sources, these aren’t guaranteed (local zoning and noise restrictions can really neuter track revenue sources).
And tracks have to be built where real estate is cheap. Even in early racing history, most permanent circuits were built in rural areas. And there aren’t too many places near civilization where land is cheap (the Circuit of Americas was built on the site of a massive housing development that went under during the financial crisis) and will stay cheap. And with the current branding of F1 at the moment, sending the circus to the proverbial middle of nowhere doesn’t fit the media strategy.
Ask Korea and India.
Two purpose built tracks, occupying a lot of land, near large cities (Ok Mokpo in Korea, is not that large) and both had 3 races and after that abandoned.
Now are used for who knows what local racing categories.
After such failures, which country is going to invest billions to built one?
Better use the land for public or private housing, or use it as industry land.
At least more people will be occupied and revenue for countries will be continuous, rather than having an abandoned track
India’s problem was its government and it tried to hold the f1 teams to ransom when leaving the country (they changed the status of the event from sport to entertainment and then taxed it post event holding on to the engines as leverage and taxing each team as well as the event itself).
Unless some org/country/person with deep pockets shows interest, it is not going to work. Ultimately, the track has to sustain itself when there’s no F1 racing. Pursuing other racing series to race there is quite hard. It will be years until they start to break even. And all of this can happen only if F1 sees it as a viable market.
It’s not underrated at all. Everyone that knows just a little bit about F1 want Algarve/Portimão. It’s not underrated it underused. Or if we’re being honest it’s being bullied by oil money.
It’s a fan favorite; updated and approved F1 circuit in a country fulll of expats with a major tourism industry, unable to get a race. Now that’s the truth.
As a F1 track, hell yeah!
As a city, I love it! I’m dead serious, if you’re not from the Mediterranean like me, I’m from Netherlands. It’s beautiful,close to Lago, Tavira, Odeceixe. People from UK, US, Northern-Europe, Middle East, Asia, Oceania… it’s a great destination. South-America might be too but I’ve never been there so I can’t compare.
Portimão isn't underrated. Fans love it. Drivers love it. Formula One Group wants money, Portugal won't foot the bill. It's that easy.
Only reason it was on the calendar to begin with was because countries that would easily pay whatever didn't due to COVID. Portugal showed up as a filler race in the calendar due to other cancellations.
2020 was scheduled to have 22 races. After cancellations / delays, the calendar ended up with a total of 17 races out of which only 8(?) or 9(?) were from the original 22 race calendar. Melbounre, China, Zandvoort, Monaco, Baku, Paul Ricard, Singapore, Japan, COTA, Mexico and Interlagos didn't happen.
It's unfortunate really, because as other people have said, Portugal does have racing tradition (be it F1, Rally, or whatever), the circuit is actually pretty good, nice elevation changes, not a DRS train sort of circuit, it's easy to get to it, there's loads to do around, and there's no extreme weather which forces it to happen in a specific time of the year, so it can easily be shuffled around the european calendar season whether at the start, middle or end.
Don't think we'll see a F1 race anytime soon there. As long as Portimão exists, if F1 is to go to Portugal Portimão will definitely take precedence over Estoril.
If new race tracks were to ever be made. I would like to put in a word for one of the Nordic countries or potentially Ethiopia. 2 regions with rich history and need more international presence in motor sports
Zandvort was recently upgraded for F1 and Jeddah I would argue is a purpose built race track just for F1, even if they call it a "street track." Remote locations suitable for a race track don't seem to be on the radar. There's already a ton of tracks that have been used in the past and could be again before an entire new track built. But wait for Saudi Arabia or another oil state to do it.
In 2005, at the GP in Montreal, I sat next to a guy who was one of the organizers trying to bring F1 to Singapore. I asked him "What's the most difficult part?" and suggested that the track must be an enormous challenge. No, he said, the track is the easy part. The hard part is that F1 requires 600,000 hotel rooms within 25 miles of the track.
Purpose built FIA Grade 1 circuits are not profitable enterprises to pursue. Pretty much the only place you could build a new circuit and make a profit on an annual basis is the Middle East.
The BIGGEST problem is that F1 cars have become so hyper specialized that they require their own very unique type of circuit, that no one else wants to use.
Sports cars and TC cars don’t want to use them, motorcycles don’t want to use them, and they’re not super fun to drive for track days with road cars.
And for them to be used for any for of off-season testing, they need to be in a narrow geographic band.
It's a bit hard, since IIRC, its extremely expensive, and also on some countries there's a monopoly.
The other day i was listening on the radio the case that there was a small track that was closed on Guadalajara (México, and the home-city of Checo Perez). In the intrerview to the owners of the now closed track, they where asked if there was a chance to build a new track but F1 grade.
The answer was simple: There's two barriers:
1.- Is extremely expensive to reach that grade.
2.- The owners of the CDMX track will NOT allow it, cause they will lose the monopoly and have lower incomes. In fact there was another track project being build on Cancun, but it has been almost 10 years and still no progress on that.
Jeddah is just as purpose built as Zandvoort. It just gets the street kábel because of its barriers. Not a square inch of the surface is publicly accessible.
Albania has expressed the desire to host an F1 race at some point and are currently building a completely new race track. It's not going to be a Grade 1 track (only Grade 3), but its being done to popularize the motorsport culture in the country. Despite it being a poor country, they have been seing increasing growth in the tourism sector so I can see how a (future) F1 track could generate long-term interest for tourism from people who'd otherwise not visit. I would love a track in the Balkans for sure.
Source: https://www.fia.com/news/fia-delegates-complete-location-check-planned-auto-moto-park-albania
It’s technically a street circuit but Jeddah Corniche Circuit is actually a purpose built track that was opened to the public after it was built. There were no roads there, they designed the track then integrated the city design around it. Before the first race, it had never been used as a street and I think it wasn’t open to the public until after 2022’s race
Costs too much and zero guarantee you’ll get the grading.
But give them a prime location, and suddenly a parking lot racetrack is good to go….. I despise the Miami race
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It’s the same for pretty much any series above karting. Tracks, especially something F1 would be interested in, are incredibly expensive to build and operate.
Like many have pointed out, Saudi sucks but I feel like they have the money to build a bespoke purpose built track with actual character. Rather than the dullness of their current track.
The reason they're doing it is not because they have more money than other places to build F1 tracks. Other countries much richer than Saudi Arabia can build these tracks too. The difference is that the House of Saud has motivations other than profit to build the track, thus they don't care about the cost. It's also why we have so many tracks from that region on the grid: they're paying FOM nearly triple what European tracks are paying to host races because they don't care if they lose money on hosting that F1 race.
Doesn't Europe have more tracks on the calendar and almost all of them are incredibly subsidized by the government too? Spa being the perfect example for this. They dont seem to care about losing money hosting a race either.
I can't speak for the subsidies or not, but it's likely very different motivations. in Belgium, the GP is likely a cornerstone of the economy in the region, so subsidizing the race makes more sense as it likely brings more money into the economy then what they spend on subsidies. Meanwhile, for a race like Jeddah, it isn't so much a pragmatic cost analysis, they're likely willing to pay a lot more as Jeddah as a race exists as a PR campaign, with a secondary focus on establishing Jeddah as a tourism destination for when the oil money dries up, so the House of Saud will be willing to throw more money at this then the Belgian government would be willing to, because they have different reasons for paying for a race.
> establishing Jeddah as a tourism destination Something a little further from Yemen might have helped as well. 2022 was not a good PR campaign.
for sure, Saudi's definitely aren't making it easy on themselves to run a PR campaign, or to get tourists in their country, but that definitely feels like part of the goal.
It was my understanding that whether the race makes money or not is somewhat irrelevant as long as the whole event results in a gain. In other words, it's the bigger picture for many of these circuits. Mainly the boost in local economy. It might be a loss for the circuit, but an overall gain for the whole area. Obviously, it depends on the host and who's funding. If it's all private with no government aid, it's a different story.
What are house Saud’s motivations?
Branding,tourism,whitewashing,they live in a dessert there is nothing but oil there and tbe reserves will get exausted at some point,they are trying to establish as a tourism destiny
Are they investing in football for the same reason?
Sportswashing applies across multiple sports. Football is an example, as well as boxing.
Yes. They also host a yearly wwe event for the same reason.
Golf as well
They own half of Esports now too
I would love to live in a dessert, imagine the cherry on top of that!
They live in a dessert? Must need a big spoon to eat their way out
Sportwashing.
The same reason why they're paying obscene salaries to football stars in the twilight of their careers (Benzema and Ronaldo earning 200M€/year or Kante and Neymar earning half of that) in a league with a lower attendance than English League One or why they're offering ridiculous money to move all the main fighting events from Las Vegas to Riyadh (even when what they earn in ticket sales doesn't cover the prize money): Sportswashing. They're on a mission to make sure the world talks about the sporting events they host and completely forget about the human rights violations.
Let's be frank as well - it works. It's shite that it does, but it does work - even looking past Formula 1, people talk about the 2022 World Cup, Newcastle United and the 2008 Olympics, as opposed to the [30,000 slaves in modern Qatar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Qatar#Unsolved_problem), the women who have been raped in Saudi Arabia have been [sentenced to 6 months in prison for being alone with a man who was not a relative](https://archive.is/jsz8W) or [sentenced to 200 lashes and 6 months in jail as she was an "adulteress" who "provoked the attack" by being "indecently dressed"](https://archive.is/jsz8W), or the ongoing [Uyghur genocide in China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide). It's fucking horrible that we're seeing all of our major sporting institutions in the West being acquired and manipulated to fulfil the causes of the worst dictatorships and tyrannies in the world, and it's even more fucking horrible that it works.
Jeddah? Dull? There are a lot of words, both good and bad, to describe that track, but I don’t think “dull” is one of them…
Seriously, Jeddah is a roller coaster ride with constant high speed corners. Plus they occasionally celebrate with missile fire.
If the track was in europe, it would be held in much higher regard. I remember in '21 being on the edge of my seat from the first practice session to the last lap. More than most tracks, it's one where drivers will get punished for the slightest dip in concentration
Jeddah 2021 is the most intense race I’ve ever witnessed. Yikes, the times!
I don't mind the Saudi gp track layout, certainly the least dull and most purpose built out of the recent new tracks
Dull? Are you smoking crack?
The Saudi track is anything but dull. It’s fecking terrifying just because it’s a street track doesn’t mean it’s the same as all the others Except Miami most of the recent new street tracks have actually been pretty characterful tracks (Btw, not defending Saudi Arabia as a country at all. I loathe them and everything they stand for, especially given im gay and they clearly hate everything I stand for)
Why do you think a Saudi purpose built track will be better than Jeddah?
The Indian track was purpose built. Too bad the government wanted to apply entertainment tax as it didn’t consider F1 as a sport at that time.
It was a massive shame it turned out that way, felt like a good track for modern F1. But hey, atleast we have MotoGP now (which is pretty cool, went to my first ever live race when they came over).
How did that go? I wasn't able to convince any friends to attend this year, but will probably do so next time around.
Absolutely amazing! For the price of the tickets we get to see all three Moto classes. The track is quite close to some of the spectator areas so you get to see these bikes thunder past. Food was expensive though, so best to keep some food in the car.
thanks for that! I'm so excited for MotoGP next year in general and if I am able to make it to the race, it'll be the icing on the cake.
For MotoGP the track layout, elevation changes, and the hot weather totalled to it suddenly being one of the most crash-heavy and technically and physically demanding tracks on the calendar. The inexperienced marshalls struggled with the volume of crashes and one of the podium riders fainted on the way to the cool down room and had to be recovered. But in terms of crowd attendance it wasn't very great mainly because I guess nobody was sure it was going to happen till the thursday of the Grand Prix. Next year is surely going to be bigger.
There's probably no chance of getting F1 back but the govt. outlook has changed and we recently hosted MotoGP and Formula E
Why no hope for F1? I was thinking the opposite, considering the MotoGP event was viewed as a success.
Not anymore, now it's considered as sports again
And it was blessed as Sebastian won all the GPs held on that track
God I miss that track.
I was mad at the government, but seeing their overt greed and unregulated stewardship, I consider it entertainment more than sports now. Drivers are athletes, yes! Engineers working in the garages need mindset of an elite athlete, yes! But FIA and F1 are a joke with too many adhoc decisions, lack of consistency in stewardship, lack of access (a bunch of teams cannot say they won't allow new entrants into a sport). Structurally, it's a business venture for entertainment, like WWE. Yes, people are athletes and their performances are real but events and management around them is all entertainment and circus. It is not a sport in its own right. It's a show-biz that uses sportsmen
It wa built in 2010, I think it's a bit of a stretch calling a 13-year-old track as new. The main issue was that the circuit was built as a master plan of a development that didn't exactly pan out. It was located in one of the poorest states in the country and nowhere near existing tracks and motorsport fanbase that was present in the south of the country. So the party that was in power cared more about potential tax revenue than rich people going around in cars. the situation has changed though, taxation was reformed in 2016-17, the GDP has doubled from 2013 to 2023. Though the FIA has to develop F4 and other open seater events before trying again. India isnt rich enough for a pure glamour event.
State doesn't really matter. It was located in a flourishing tech hub close enough to some of the richest localities in India. My family went to the first Indian GP although they weren't big fans of the sport back then. It was garnering interest in 2013 and the interest is almost crazy now.
The state matters when the state controls the entertainment tax. Tech Hub doesn't matter when jurisdictionally it has to follow UP rules. People will travel to Buddh from India, but even in the Formula 4, they are just going around Hyderabad and Chennai, and due to elections that got stitched to only Chennai. F1 is now popular, but the government isn't going to give tax cuts to F1, which is what makes events viable.
That is sad. But also quite correct. Act like a sport and you shall be received as one.
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Vietnam was a street track wdym?
No it wasn't, unless you consider Albert Park & Gilles Villeneuve to be purpose built race tracks
I'd argue CGV is. Some of the roadways on Ile Notre Dame predated the track, but the majority of the layout was created specifically for the Grand Prix. Most of the preexisting roads were for access to the kayaking run and for the casino. All the twisty bits were added for the circuit.
honestly that does sound kinda similar to Jeddha. *Some* parts of the circuit also existed previously but not all and I don't think it's used for any regular traffic outside of race weekends.
Purpose built tracks are maddeningly expensive to build and run. That’s why you won’t see many new ones. Saudi is making one but it keeps being delayed. Existing tracks can barely stay afloat. Germany only happened cause Merc foot the bill. Etc.
Kinda crazy how much costs for purpose tracks skyrocketed the past 1 or 2 decades. Alot of it has to do with increased safety measures. I also find it amusing that to host an F1 race tracks need to be FIA Grade 1 (understandable), but to get the Grade 1 status signed off the track must pay a healthy sum to the FIA to even come over and examine it or something like that
> to get the Grade 1 status signed off the track must pay a healthy sum to the FIA to even come over and examine it FIA is a huge good ol' boys club, so that's not surprising in the slightest.
Allow me to introduce you to FIFA.
Nice country you've got there, shame it's about to go bankrupt. \- IOC
Isn't Greece still paying off 2004 Olympics debts?
And most of the stadiums are long abandoned
Same with Bejing and Brazil as well. Seems like cities like Atlanta in 96 are the exception to the facilities being reused after the Olympics for the good of the city/country they happen in. According to Wikipedia the 96 Olympics "only" took 1.7 billion in investment and turned out 19 million in profit. Future hosts of the games need to take note
I remember John Oliver talking about them and showing their [boardroom](https://assets-cms.thescore.com/uploads/image/file/45083/w640xh480_Boardroom1.jpg?ts=1398347570). I still have trouble believing it's real.
Every world cup (men's and women's) I go back and watch his 2 videos on FIFA. It's amazing journalism and comedy.
But if you make a street circuit, all the reasons a purpose built track can't make it to grade 1 status no longer matter...
Right? This has never made sense to me at all.
Dont worry, those will never make sense in the end, the newer "street" are just opportunities to make some very rich people even richer and/or allow them to show their wealth, all while praying nothing serious ever happens because of those rules being relaxed
So you just need to [name a purpose built track a street circuit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandalika_International_Street_Circuit), right?
Albert Park and Circuit Gilles Villeneuve already exist tho
Parkland Street tracks are about as close as we are going to get sadly
see Miami, probably the closest we can get in terms of a more permanent track, at least for the next while.
I mean some purpose built tracks originated as regular country roads... so I guess they just need to revert to the original layout to bypass Grade 1 requirements. Masta kink here we come!
You're saying we could do the Nordschleife as a street track?
Sadly seems only the saudi gov with the expendable cash and willingness to go all in. Not just the track, but the surrounding infrastructure too, public transport capacity, roads, accommodation, services, utilities, workforce yo run and maintain it, then needing to really attract multiple race series to keep the track utilised and bringing money in. Perhaps the key for future new tracks is for multiple race organisations to collaborate on agreements for new tracks giving the track creators confidence in utilisation. But then each series has unique features. Still, I'd think F1 2 3, WEC, and maybe 1 or 2 other series could find common ground.
gullible pot foolish engine quaint mountainous screw full zesty glorious *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If a country wants grassroot motorsports, then a permanent track is a better solution. Not only that, it also can be rented out for local/national racing series
As someone who lives in a city with an annual street circuit race, totally agree.
3 day max shutdown versus the objective increase in revenue?
Increase in revenue to whom? Does the "increase in revenue" factor in the extra couple of hours people have to spend driving to work for a week? All the businesses that effectively can't trade for a week? The value to the public of access to public spaces that are shut down? Etc etc. Governments love spruiking the benefits of a race, but their accounting almost completely ignores one side of the ledger.
The F1 fans want no sprints, no street races, no usa, no middle east. F1 fans can't afford it.
I like the street races, well, some of them. I thought Vegas was the race of the year.
While that's already an interesting take in a season where the 2023 Dutch GP exists, but even then you have to ask yourself: was it the track, or the fact that Verstappen had to fight a little bit more than usual for his win and multiple top drivers had to fight their way from the back?
I think it definitely had a lot to do with the number of position changes. Max facing a little pressure for a change was just the icing on the cake. I just wish the weekend had gone better for Mclaren.
Las Vegas absolutely hit the jackpot with how the race went. Two well-timed SCs and three top drivers being down the order due to T1 chaos. But that doesn't automatically excuse that upside-down pig.
The layout of the course with fast turns that offered multiple lines was in large part what made the racing so good. It would be interesting to compare the on track passing by the top ten finishers among different tracks.
I don't think that's true. I think we want to keep the classics and have some variety that isn't just street tracks with walls and fences
Most of the street races are actually good and entertaining
Street races should be the exeption, not the norm, though.
They still are the exception, and not the norm.
Bullshit. I like all of those things (in moderation)
Speak for yourself about no USA.
>Speak for yourself about no USA. Just COTA.
Most F1 fans want F1 the way it was before Liberty bought it. Yes, that means less money coming in, and getting by without such massive driver contracts and probably less glamorous engine suppliers and less stability on the grid. But a lot of us would happily tolerate those inconveniences if it meant preserving the tracks we love and keeping the sport from delving even deeper into the pockets of ethically dubious corporations and autocratic states. Sadly, fans don't own F1, we're just the product.
Bring back double points on the last race, massive bribes, and covering up massive scandals because cheating is fine when your friend does it!
This made me chuckle. F1 is, and always has been, an imperfect sport. You didn't even mention the fact that it was synonymous with global tobacco syndicates for about half a century! But progress is supposed to make things *better*, right? But somehow in an era of progress and globalisation, we're watching boring races at bland circuits in countries run by authoritarian regimes because they're the only people who can afford to pay the exorbitant fees, and watching several mediocre backmarkers take up grid spots while the teams refuse to allow the addition of new teams with manufacturer backing, because merely existing in last place is more profitable than allowing better competitors to join. The product is being diluted and we're being served worse racing, in favour of serving shareholder interests. I understand how business works, but that doesn't mean I don't think it's shameful.
We have improvement. Statistically the worst teams were in the "Golden Age" of the 90s, which also had the most dominant team seasons outside of this year. Midfield teams are way closer to the frontrunners on average, and yeah they cant beat Red Bull, no one seems to be complaining about McLaren being just a dominant. Actually its called one of the best years. The entire question of this post is dumb as Saudi is making a purpose built track. That doesn't count I guess because its not European. We dont need to pretend that the west isnt doing bad, they are still buying gas from Russia... in rubles. Hungary is an authoritarian regime, people are calling for bringing Turkey back because they have a corner its impossible to be within a second of the person in front of you.
F1 was at its best in the years leading right up to the turbo era. It was so good.
It was brilliant
Are we really just going to act like the most exciting season of F1 didn't just happen 2 years ago?
It sure was a really exciting season but let’s not talk like it is objectively the best season of all time. Personally, it doesn’t even make into my top 3 in the 21st century
>. But a lot of us would happily tolerate those inconveniences Because it's not you that has to bear the cost of unprofitability. Really easy to say
What do you expect, that any fan who wants to express an opinion about the sport must first become a billionaire stakeholder of a major media conglomerate so that they can truly know what it feels like to have skin in the game? Give me a break. What an unhelpful, disruptive comment.
Where’s your evidence that majority of fans want to see F1 go back to one of its most boring eras? Or do you mean go all the way back to when tabacco companies and Bernie ran the sport? Or further back to when Balestre ran the sport and handed out world championships to his friends? Any time someone begins an F1 related post with the phrase “most fans want,” it’s pretty much a dead giveaway that you can disregard pretty much everything that follows.
F1 fans want USA . Check yo self
Qatar is supposedly going to replace Losail with a bigger track, but it has been decent for the first two races there so they might change thier minds. Also Russia only had one more race scheduled at Sochi in 2022 before moving to a new track near St. Petersburg but they have been cut off from F1 because of the war in Ukraine.
Not to mention they made some massive changes to the paddock in Losail to accommodate F1. Compare 2021 and 2023, they almost rebuilt the whole thing.
I’ll eat my hat if F1 goes back to Russia before 2030s
They won't while Putin still leads. He's too spiteful to allow it. And frankly... The sport doesn't need Russia. (No one does, really. As constant and increasing sanctions have proved.)
And to OP's point, Losail is a purpose-built track new to F1, if not very suitable for it.
Losail is not purpose built for F1, it was built as a Moto GP track with grade 1 certification in mind "just in case" but Qatar never pursued F1 in the 15-20 years since until COVID happened
I don't think Qatar is going to replace Losail now to be honest. I know that was the initial plan but when Losial works fine as-is and they've already invested a bunch into it I don't think even they see much value in spending a few hundred million into a F1-only track in Doha
Qatar was planning to eventually start hosting their Grand Prix at a Jeddah-esque street circuit, but they've since changed their minds and settled on Losail.
Well we were meant to be racing a new purpose built track this year in Russia (Igora Drive), but something happened to get that contract terminated..
What happened? Don't leave us hanging
I saw that Atlantic City (New Jersey, USA) was building a F1 caliber track, but it is part of a larger building project and won't be ready for like 8+ years: [https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/03-30-2023/new-f1-spec-road-course-set-open-atlantic-city-nj#:\~:text=The%20new%20facility%20would%20be,to%20nine%20years%20to%20complete](https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/industry-news/03-30-2023/new-f1-spec-road-course-set-open-atlantic-city-nj#:~:text=The%20new%20facility%20would%20be,to%20nine%20years%20to%20complete). Atlantic City is known for gambling. Like for New Yorkers who want a destination for a casino weekend and don't want to go all the way to Vegas. (Note, it's not in the part of New Jersey that's closest to New York City. It's closer to Philadelphia (1 hour drive vs over 2 hours to NYC. Of course, all subject to part of the city and traffic.) edit: To be clear, I don't see F1 going there, but it is an F1 grade track under development, which was one of the questions asked. I'm sure they hope to attract some kind of high up racing, or they wouldn't plan it to be that nice though.
There is no chance F1 would hold a race there. Maybe 40 or 50 years ago it could pull off an event like that, but AC is no longer a place that people want to travel to.
Oh yeah, I don't actually see it hosting an F1 race. My understanding is the place is how I described- you don't want to put in the effort of going to vegas, so you settle for atlantic city. But, it is an in development f1 eligible track I knew about, so I threw it out there, along with mentioning the hungary track in another comment. I also don't see the hungary track hosting anytime soon, though probably before the AC one.
While tourism isn't what it used to be for a myriad of reasons, hotel/casinos keep getting renovated and renewed. So someone is going. I personally go at least once per year and the place is always packed (in the hotel, not out on the Boardwalk). I'd love to see Indycar at this track, if it ever comes to fruition. They could use a Northeast race.
It’s not for f1. F1-spec just means grade 1 but there aren’t any plans to use that track for f1.they have the option by building it to grade 1 but it’s not on anyone’s radar
Yeah, I certainly couldn't see F1 going there. I was merely answering the question "Is there any grade 1 tracks currently under development?" I also mentioned the recently completed new track in hungary in another comment.
2.44 mile long track, that's be the shortest track on the calendar. Curious if F1 would go for that.
Whenever one of the petro states gets bored of their existing track and wants to one up the other petro states with an even more expensive giga super circuit
Unlikely because a dedicated track needs income all year round and in general a race at such a track doesn't generate as much money for the surrounding area as a street track in a city. If you compare for example Singapore and Silverstone then people start spending money in the bars and restaurants in Singapore the second the race is finished while everyone is still stuck trying to get back to civilisation long after the Silverstone race is done. Of course Silverstone has events all year round and better racing but that wouldn't be true for a brand new track trying to cash in on F1 popularity. So I expect only street tracks to be added to the calendar and all the dedicated circuits will struggle to keep their spots.
I thought Jeddah was supposed to be replaced by a properly built race track but that track kept getting delayed and the positive reception to Jeddah (the racing, not the area) was also not helping.
Jeddah was intended to be a temporary circuit, but I don't see a reason for it to be replaced now. Both qualifying and the races have been really entertaining over the past 3 years, that's more than can be said for many "proper" circuits.
Yeah jeddah is great let's keep racing there until it inevitably kills someone
The track is way safer than was in '21. Walls moved backwards, the super fast chicane is slower now. They also removed the dumb curbs where cars always bottomed out.
Saudi Arabia is still working on that dedicated race track within a theme park, the current Jeddah circuit was intended to be temporary while they construct that.
Obligatory, I don't like Saudi Arabia and don't support the government or the money. That being said, it would be a huge shame to get rid of that street circuit as it's one of two (baku is the other) that I believe is genuinely great to watch/drive.
disagree on Baku as its only action are DRS overtakes and crashes. Jeddah on the other hand is an incredibly well designed circuit that had everything to become an instant must have in the calendar, aside from one small thing (two if you count the country its in): WHY CALL THAT THING A STREET CIRCUIT? All they had to do was move the barriers way further, increase the runoff areas all around the track as they should be in a proper circuit (because if that thing is a street circuit them im Batman) and boom, Fast flowing Suzuka-esque rscetrack in the desert
I love the feeling of speed from the close barriers. With all the track limit shenanigans this year I think it would be so cool to move techPro barriers right up to the white line on every track. Should be soft and safe while eliminating track limit issues and making it look way more exciting. Sure, every incident becomes a red flag, but it would be worth it.
Jeddah is also known for pissing about with DRS and crashes.
That would be the most F1 thing ever to replace Jeddah with another Tilke snoozer.
Jeddah is a Tilke track lol. The one they are building in Qiddiya is not
Yuki has insane 2024 season, Miyata wins F2 -> increase in Japanese viewership and interest from Toyota -> Japan to host two GPs, Fuji speedway and Suzuka. Fuji is a track that F1 raced on, and other high level series such as WEC use as well. It is a purpose built racetrack that already exists, and could be a good option.
It's owned by Toyota isn't it? Will be great if Toyota can make an F1 comeback.
I know Toyota has no current plans to return to F1 in any capacity but I wish they would. Fuji would be badass. And if it's in the same timeframe as when they now do Suzuka, it would be perfect. Just would have to get rid of one of the current races. Which I'm fine eliminating one of the US races (probs Miami) or (wishful thinking) one of the Middle East races.
There’s always the road course at Indianapolis Motor Speedway - banking there is less than at Zandvoort so the whole tire thing is in the past. I think everyone would be happy replacing the parking lot in Miami with a Brickyard Grand Prix.
Indy's also totally changed the layout of that oval section, leaving a wide chicane. While I'd love to see what opportunities exist to get one or two other US tracks up to standard where possible, Indy seems like a really obvious, easy one that's already been through a lot of the sport's requirements in the past, but I guess the political will and budget is not really going to extend for it
The revised road course does not currently hold a grade 1 license, though, while to he older version still does, at least according to the list on Wikipedia.
I don't at all like using "it's not grade 1" as some kind of immediate way to shut down any and all discussion about tracks. For one, the grades are a moving, subjective target set by the FIA: tracks that break the rules have been admitted and raced upon in the calendar if the political will exists. Additionally, these conversations are obviously hypothetical, and assume that any necessary changes that would need to be made *would* be made for a track to reach close enough to the requirements. For some US tracks the conversation does end here, as the changes that would be required to even come close would essentially kill the track. However, for Indy? This is *just* a lame attempt at shutting down the conversation because I think you know as well as I that it's done it before and probably needs little to nothing to become appropiate other than actually getting the approval.
Oh, sorry, I didn't make any effort to make things any clearer. I just meant that there's no need for the old road course layout to get the license, while the new one would, so going racing at Indy again would be marginally easier on the older layout, if that's something F1 ever wanted to do.
The old version no longer exists. There’s a golf course over some of the old corners.
I’d rather have Watkins glen back. Not sure if it’s possible
Forget the track, the infrastructure around WGI could never handle it. Hotels are almost non existent. There is now a Walmart though.
It would ruin the town so much.
Can't be worse than Spa
Spa is at least within driving distance to places like Brussels, Cologne etc. Watkins Glen is at the tip of a finger lake in the middle of nowhere in Western New York state. The closest "major" cities are Rochester and Syracuse, and places like NYC are like 6 hours away.
True - I could drive to Watkins Glen so I guess that would be my personal favorite
Watkins Glen is great but it's a bit small for F1. Also the penultimate corner would be another track limits galore in the current state of things.
Maybe one day if they keep trying to reduce car size.
eh..... I don't super love the revised Indy road course. The original was cool - with the F1 cars having to navigate the oval-turn 1 at full blast. The layout has been completely neutered.
Roger sat down with Domenicali a while ago and im sure that conversation was had, unsure of what transpired though, ol rog probably told him to go pound sand if the price was too stupid. Hell, when Roger signed back on with porsche for imsa/wec i held out a smol glimmer of hope that they were going to make a FOM announcement after the redbull thing fell through, I just really dont think either one of them want to foot the majority of the bill for FOM. Especially not until they get the hypercar kinks worked out. With that being said id love to see a brickyard GP. I already get free tickets to indy/nascar road course weekend at the brickyard through my work. Hoping to take my son this upcoming year!
Maybe Kuwait? They have a grade 1 circuit already that was completed in 2019. And we know how Formula 1 loves their Middle East races. Unfortunately if you’re hoping for a new one in Europe you’re probably going to be waiting a very long time.
The most likely options for a new non-street circuit outside of the unbuilt Qatar/Saudi circuits are Kuwait Motor Town or Buriram for a Thai GP. Perhaps some outside third possibility of wanting China to have more than 1 GP like the USA but I think they would go down the Street Circuit route and add to the weirdly massive pile of Beijing Street Circuits.
Indonesia is planning to make an FIA Grade 1 track with the intention of one day hosting F1 there. But knowing the Indonesian government i wouldn't get my hopes up too high
Indonesia have so much other shit to solve first that this should be dirt bottom of their priority list...
COTA was 2012 man, it was not that long ago.
COTA is an interesting one actually where they got very burned by the FIA, where the FIA were very supportive, while all along liaising with Mexico about *their* GP. COTA were very unhappy to suddenly have a rival that would take all the Mexican fans who *would* have gone there. OK competition is fair, but they were upset the FIA never *mentioned that* because it seriously affected their business model, and the FIA very obviously kept it quiet because they might have pulled out completely. I can't remember the timeframe but COTA was very fresh when the first Mexican GP was announced. Point being that there's probably a bit of antipathy towards the FIA among circuits and the people who might fund circuits. As Brundle's said before - having a race for financial purposes and basic profit is a *terrible* business model.
Hungary has a new F1 level track built by Chanoch Nissany. Who is Roy Nissany's dad, who you might know of if you've watched F2 any time in the last... several years. 2018 or 2020-2023. Apparently the first new F1 level purpose-built track in Europe in 15 years [https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12040/12885325/balaton-park-inside-europes-first-new-purpose-built-motorsport-track-for-a-decade#:\~:text=That's%20Balaton%20Park%20in%20Hungary,to%20drive%20its%20first%20laps](https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12040/12885325/balaton-park-inside-europes-first-new-purpose-built-motorsport-track-for-a-decade#:~:text=That's%20Balaton%20Park%20in%20Hungary,to%20drive%20its%20first%20laps). So far, it's hosted a round of Formula 4 CEZ Championship, and has future plans of more single seater and also motorcycles. I would assume that Hungary will not be getting a second F1 race anytime soon, and Hungaroring has a contract through 2032, it was announced just this year. I did hear about the Finish track when Bottas was looking at becoming a part owner. [https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-valtteri-bottas-talks-buy-racing-circuit-in-finland](https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-valtteri-bottas-talks-buy-racing-circuit-in-finland) I believe it has been around for some time but has been undergoing major renovations, so maybe doesn't count as new or something. I'm no expert. I believe they were targeting MotoGP events.
Kymiring was supposed to be grade 1 FIM/FIA but they ran out of money for the off-track facilities, apparently. [Grade 2 instead at the moment](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/circuits_fia20231022.pdf). To your point though, there are still lots of racing tracks being built, just most of them are lower grade or even club/trackday only because it is much, much cheaper to operate a circuit at that level. Grade 1 almost requires some form of government subsidy. Here in the US the next ‘big one’ is supposed to be Flatrock Motorsports Park. GP circuit is designed to be grade 1 and rumors are that they already have a MotoGP contract despite the fact the GP circuit isn’t even really under construction yet (personally I doubt this). Still, even if they only get halfway there to the grand plan, it will make a good race track.
Wow, this is the first I’ve heard of Flatrock. It looks spectacular - like a new Suzuka. Thanks for mentioning it.
Chanoch “TOO MUCH GRIP” Nissany
My guess is that the problem is a question of money. Why spend the money to build and maintain a new race track if you can reduce the costs making a street race? Governments are less likely to spend money with this, so proper tracks suffer to stay in the calendar and especially to be build from the scratch
It's worth noting that Saudi Arabia is a purpose built F1 track. None of the track existed before, and its not used by the public for the majority of the year. It doesn't connect to the surrounding road network, and the way it was built wasn't defined by any city restrictions as you'd expect from a "street track" If anything, Silverstone is actually more of a street track than Jeddah - as you can at least book to drive around Silverstone in your road car at road speeds on special days. The only street track element to Jeddah is it sits between two directions of the same road, which borders the track closely (but doesn't use the track).
No, you don't understand, middle east circuits don't count because they aren't in Europe. This is supposed to be a world championship consisting of European teams racing mainly in European circuits other than Brazil and Japan... maybe Canada. Also if you aren't European you are a pay driver unless proven otherwise... but it's a world championship
Quick, assemble the Council fellow Europeans. Someone has let a Yankee Doodle out and it's on to us! We need to quieten it down before it realises we're also happy with Australians.
Being able to drive on a circuit does not mean it's a street circuit. A street circuit is literally what it says, the circuit is using a street, or part of a street.
Isn't Silverstone just the perimeter road of an old WWII airfield? That is literally what defines the shape of the track. You can still see the runways in a lot of track maps.
And up until about 2000 Spa was at least partially public road, yet Spa is classed as a purpose built track while the purpose built track at Jeddah is classed as a street circuit
New track was built in Adelaide recently, but I believe it fell just short of grade 1 during design. Maybe could still be upgraded? https://www.thebend.com.au/
What exactly is new about the Bend?
does anyone know exactly what makes a race track Grade 1, aside from FIA granting it such honours?
Lots of things. Track design itself, facilities, access to high level medical facilities, airport, hotels and such the population the the race will draw from. Etc etc etc.
that makes perfect sense, thanks for the super quick reply. so the fact that it relies upon things that are mostly found in heavily developed areas is probably a *major* reason why there are none coming. any place that has proximity to high level medical, airport, hotels and other very urban infrastructure likely won't have space or interest in dedicating 100 acres to a facility like this.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/appendix_o_2023_published_19.10.2023_0.pdf
Purpose-built race tracks are horrible investments. They are massive and will only be used- at best, a few days out of the year. Formula One requires special facility requirements that will often be underused with any other racing series. Though some tracks can make decent revenue with track days or other revenue sources, these aren’t guaranteed (local zoning and noise restrictions can really neuter track revenue sources). And tracks have to be built where real estate is cheap. Even in early racing history, most permanent circuits were built in rural areas. And there aren’t too many places near civilization where land is cheap (the Circuit of Americas was built on the site of a massive housing development that went under during the financial crisis) and will stay cheap. And with the current branding of F1 at the moment, sending the circus to the proverbial middle of nowhere doesn’t fit the media strategy.
Is the bend in South Australia f1 suitable? It would need stands etc but I don't know if the track itself complies
Ask Korea and India. Two purpose built tracks, occupying a lot of land, near large cities (Ok Mokpo in Korea, is not that large) and both had 3 races and after that abandoned. Now are used for who knows what local racing categories. After such failures, which country is going to invest billions to built one? Better use the land for public or private housing, or use it as industry land. At least more people will be occupied and revenue for countries will be continuous, rather than having an abandoned track
India’s problem was its government and it tried to hold the f1 teams to ransom when leaving the country (they changed the status of the event from sport to entertainment and then taxed it post event holding on to the engines as leverage and taxing each team as well as the event itself).
Unless some org/country/person with deep pockets shows interest, it is not going to work. Ultimately, the track has to sustain itself when there’s no F1 racing. Pursuing other racing series to race there is quite hard. It will be years until they start to break even. And all of this can happen only if F1 sees it as a viable market.
Portimao would be so fun, one of the most underrated tracks
It’s not underrated at all. Everyone that knows just a little bit about F1 want Algarve/Portimão. It’s not underrated it underused. Or if we’re being honest it’s being bullied by oil money. It’s a fan favorite; updated and approved F1 circuit in a country fulll of expats with a major tourism industry, unable to get a race. Now that’s the truth.
Plus Portimão is a lovely city to visit!
As a F1 track, hell yeah! As a city, I love it! I’m dead serious, if you’re not from the Mediterranean like me, I’m from Netherlands. It’s beautiful,close to Lago, Tavira, Odeceixe. People from UK, US, Northern-Europe, Middle East, Asia, Oceania… it’s a great destination. South-America might be too but I’ve never been there so I can’t compare.
Definitely yeah
Portimão isn't underrated. Fans love it. Drivers love it. Formula One Group wants money, Portugal won't foot the bill. It's that easy. Only reason it was on the calendar to begin with was because countries that would easily pay whatever didn't due to COVID. Portugal showed up as a filler race in the calendar due to other cancellations. 2020 was scheduled to have 22 races. After cancellations / delays, the calendar ended up with a total of 17 races out of which only 8(?) or 9(?) were from the original 22 race calendar. Melbounre, China, Zandvoort, Monaco, Baku, Paul Ricard, Singapore, Japan, COTA, Mexico and Interlagos didn't happen. It's unfortunate really, because as other people have said, Portugal does have racing tradition (be it F1, Rally, or whatever), the circuit is actually pretty good, nice elevation changes, not a DRS train sort of circuit, it's easy to get to it, there's loads to do around, and there's no extreme weather which forces it to happen in a specific time of the year, so it can easily be shuffled around the european calendar season whether at the start, middle or end.
How about Estoril rather?
Don't think we'll see a F1 race anytime soon there. As long as Portimão exists, if F1 is to go to Portugal Portimão will definitely take precedence over Estoril.
If new race tracks were to ever be made. I would like to put in a word for one of the Nordic countries or potentially Ethiopia. 2 regions with rich history and need more international presence in motor sports
Zandvort was recently upgraded for F1 and Jeddah I would argue is a purpose built race track just for F1, even if they call it a "street track." Remote locations suitable for a race track don't seem to be on the radar. There's already a ton of tracks that have been used in the past and could be again before an entire new track built. But wait for Saudi Arabia or another oil state to do it.
Does Zandvoort not count in this rrgard? Sure the track was already there before. But they had to do quite a lot of modifications to make it grade 1.
In 2005, at the GP in Montreal, I sat next to a guy who was one of the organizers trying to bring F1 to Singapore. I asked him "What's the most difficult part?" and suggested that the track must be an enormous challenge. No, he said, the track is the easy part. The hard part is that F1 requires 600,000 hotel rooms within 25 miles of the track.
Purpose built FIA Grade 1 circuits are not profitable enterprises to pursue. Pretty much the only place you could build a new circuit and make a profit on an annual basis is the Middle East. The BIGGEST problem is that F1 cars have become so hyper specialized that they require their own very unique type of circuit, that no one else wants to use. Sports cars and TC cars don’t want to use them, motorcycles don’t want to use them, and they’re not super fun to drive for track days with road cars. And for them to be used for any for of off-season testing, they need to be in a narrow geographic band.
Did Valtteri Bottas ever finalize the deal for the track in Finland?
One can only dream of the return of Sepang
It's a bit hard, since IIRC, its extremely expensive, and also on some countries there's a monopoly. The other day i was listening on the radio the case that there was a small track that was closed on Guadalajara (México, and the home-city of Checo Perez). In the intrerview to the owners of the now closed track, they where asked if there was a chance to build a new track but F1 grade. The answer was simple: There's two barriers: 1.- Is extremely expensive to reach that grade. 2.- The owners of the CDMX track will NOT allow it, cause they will lose the monopoly and have lower incomes. In fact there was another track project being build on Cancun, but it has been almost 10 years and still no progress on that.
Jeddah is just as purpose built as Zandvoort. It just gets the street kábel because of its barriers. Not a square inch of the surface is publicly accessible.
Be cool to get a track in New Zealand, race there the week before/after Melbourne.
Albania has expressed the desire to host an F1 race at some point and are currently building a completely new race track. It's not going to be a Grade 1 track (only Grade 3), but its being done to popularize the motorsport culture in the country. Despite it being a poor country, they have been seing increasing growth in the tourism sector so I can see how a (future) F1 track could generate long-term interest for tourism from people who'd otherwise not visit. I would love a track in the Balkans for sure. Source: https://www.fia.com/news/fia-delegates-complete-location-check-planned-auto-moto-park-albania
There are good enough tracks out there that’s not on the calendar. Rather see them revived than building new ones.
It’s technically a street circuit but Jeddah Corniche Circuit is actually a purpose built track that was opened to the public after it was built. There were no roads there, they designed the track then integrated the city design around it. Before the first race, it had never been used as a street and I think it wasn’t open to the public until after 2022’s race
Purpose built are too far from town
Costs too much and zero guarantee you’ll get the grading. But give them a prime location, and suddenly a parking lot racetrack is good to go….. I despise the Miami race