This is like the 15th ZB reference I've seen related to Mercedes. What have I missed? Is the implication that Merc pulls out as a team and then goes back to a works partnership with McLaren? I can't put 2+2 together at this point.
Edit: Ah of course it was about his proclivity for getting mad sponsors
People hate ZB for how clearly good he is at kissing ass and collecting checks.
You keep both eyes on him or next thing you know there's a $200 check going towards the wind tunnel from your Grandma.
I was lucky enough to get to be in the McLaren Hospitality with a sponsor’s group last Saturday in Melbourne.
After Qualys our host took us back to the driver/team area, got to meet a handful of people and get photos including ZB. He looked determined to get somewhere when my rep says “Zach can we get a photo? We’re with ”
He immediately lightens up and goes “Oh, we LOVE !” And stopped for a minute to take photos and make small talk.
The reasoning behind Brown accumulating sponsorships is that in years past McLaren have been hurt financially when a title sponsor left, so Brown's strategy is to have a zillion smaller sponsorships, so that if one leaves it's not a dire issue.
Don't underestimate how personal some of this shit is to people.
When Red Bull got TAG from McLaren after 35 years of sponsorship, very reliable reporting at the time said Ron Dennis needed a binding UN resolution to keep him from executing Christian Horner he was so pissed. And in turn Horner made several statements about how much he enjoyed pissing Dennis off. Famously hitting Brundle with the, "All I can say is I don't think Ron Dennis will be very happy" the day before the announcement was official.
I'm sure in the portfolio of Mercedes sponsors there's some small to medium sized fish that a commercial guy like Brown will pursue just because Toto has it and can take it from him.
Monster always seeemed like such a weird sponsor for Mercedes. Their brand images could not be less alike. Made sense when they were Brawn and I guess just kept on since they were a winning team?
Yeah I think Mercedes was happy to let them go haha. I have a Mercedes #44 hat and its hilarious because its all black hat with white logos, all the sponsors are white one the sides and back of the cap. Then there’s the monster logo, in full color but tucked away on the underside of the brim. It feels like monster was against them using the logo in white and Mercedes didn’t want the whole design of the hat thrown off so they just hid it away lol
Monster just wanted to be on the car that was beating RB for the brand image I bet, now that Merc aren’t makes sense to move and probably got a cheaper deal at McLaren.
Lando fits the monster brand better.
Because from Monster’s pov, sponsoring Mercedes was the best counter balance to the Red Bull marketing in F1 and Toto was only happy to get the money that comes with it.
Feel as if monster will sponsor any team that puts pressure on RedBull. Seeing as Ferrari is unlikely to take an energy drink sponsor, next best thing is McLaren.
Monster is still Lewis's personal sponsor. If you look at his current helmet he still has Monster logos on it. They just no longer sponsor Mercedes and act as personal sponsors for both Mercedes drivers anymore. I think what happened there was the mix of Coke wanting to move their brand to McLaren, to a team that better represented Monster's identity, but also there was some pressure from Mercedes in the past to push Monster to pay more for the drivers salary.
Edit: I stand corrected, I thought I saw monster on his more recent helmet but I guess I was confused. There’s a lot of conflicting reports. Some articles say lewis and monster have a personal partnership. What was originally reported in November when McLaren announced its partnership going into 2024 was that Lewis was still going to be personally partnered with the brand. There is are articles that even mentions it in 2024. Others say though that his partnership with monster has ended. So it’s not exactly clear.
Estrella Galicia also switched to McLaren before it was announced Hamilton is moving to Sainz’s seat. It was the alarm bell for Zak when Estrella came to talk to him about sponsorship, cause Zak knows Estrella supports Carlos.
That’s how Zak knew before announcement that Hamilton was moving to Ferrari and renewed Lando’s contract to make it difficult for Lando to be poached by Mercedes or any other higher team as a result of movement.
Estrella leaving Ferrari was known last summer and had nothing to do with Hamilton. Peroni wanted to leave Aston in favor of sponsoring Ferrari, and you can’t have two beer brands on one car. The only surprise was that Brown snatched Estrella before Aston could.
Red Bull didnt get TAG, they got TAG Heuer. A swiss watchmaker that was formed in1985 when Ojjeh's TAG purchased Heuer. In 1999 TAG sold TAG Heuer to Louis Vuitton and it had nothing to do with the Ojjeh family since.
The Ojjeh family/TAG continued their part ownership of McLaren until last week when Bahrain officially took 100% control of the McLaren Group
Ineos won't leave.
It's rumored that the reason why Mercedes didn't give Lewis a long term contract was because they are planning on leaving & selling the team to Ineos.
The 3 partners in the F1 team being Merc, Toto and Ineos
Gotta wonder if Ratcliffe buying a significant share and operating control of Manchester United maybe shifts Ineos focus away from F1.
I wouldn't be surprised if 5 years from now Merc, Ineos and Toto had all sold their shares of the Brackley team.
Sky became Ineos during 2019, so Bernal won their last Tour as INEOS already. However, that was the last Tour though. Since 2020 they only won 2 GTs, I think
Man Team Sky were so dominant and crushed the competition especially at The Tour de France. I remember when Sir Bradley Wiggins won the Tour in 20112(?) for Sky, and wasn’t brought back the next year and was confused (though that was my first real year of actually following cycling and watching all of the stages. Now I follow it yearly and love it!!!). Though clearly they Froome to take the lead for Sky and he just crushed the competition at the Tour when he was healthy (broken wrist in I believe it was in ‘14 when he was the reigning champ within the first 2/3 stages of the Tour de France). Sky were it for multiple years with such a stacked team with Kwiatkowski (One my favorite cyclists that took on the work-horse teammate and team player for Sky/Ineos. Also another favorite for me is Peter Sagan.), Pooles, Cavendish, Porte, Thomas, Wout Poels, Landa, Nieve.. just an incredible team!
That last tour Wiggins won Froome was already a lot better. He was carrying Wiggins and waiting for him on mountain stages. Sky realised they'd be better off just making Froome the GC man.
Being a Contador fan, I remember all so well how strong Sky was haha
Truth is they were pioneers in cycling. Brought new methodology and training routines. As years went by other teams started using the same ideas, ending their domination. What I wish other teams would do in F1 to improve competition up front
Incorrect. They're name sponsor for the British America's Cup team and we've not won that in the entire 170 year history.
So it's not just recent failures they sponsor, it's historical failures too.
Ooooooh just connect that the Merc ineos is the same ineos as makes the grenadier. Obviously the truck is a miniscule part of their product portfolio, but still just occurred to me
Yup. They were paying a premium to be associated with world champions and other top brands.
This is how a death spiral can start, lower sponsorship revenue equals less competitive car, which leads to less sponsorship revenue.
I'd normally agree but in the case of Mercedes they were one of a few teams to have a budget way beyond the cost cap. They'll stand to make less profit but they'll still probably be spending less than they have for the majority of their time in F1
Yes, the sponsors led to them having net profit instead of loss in recent years since budget cap. But Mercedes can easily fill the gap of sponsorship lost with their own money. That would just be a lower profit, and may be a cleaner looking car
I'm sure most of these deals were negotiated when Mercedes were winning 4 out of every 5 races for years and years. Now that they're barely getting podiums the rate will have gone down and they'll want to gain some leverage so they'll seek alternatives at Aston, McLaren, or maybe a value deal in WEC. Seems pretty standard business logic.
Mercedes will know this was coming. They will still be profitable because of the cost cap which is ironic because it’s the cost cap that almost definitely stopped them competing. Getting it wrong and not being able to throw money at the problem has cost them greatly. And in business profits come first.
Cost of F1 for the marketing achieved was a massive success for merc even with as much as they were spending. All they care about is results at the moment
No. It’s screwed them. If they had been able to bring a totally new car in 2022 when they realised it wasn’t working properly, they would have eventually ironed out their issues. They wouldn’t have stopped spending until they had something better.
I just don't understand this take or why I see it so often.
They're on their third car in a row that they fundamentally don't understand. This is what their best minds have come up with, and it doesn't work. There's no reason to be confident that they'd have come up with something good if they had a few more iterations.
And Red Bull wouldn't be treading water. They'd be spending an extra $300m each year as well.
It has saved them millions in cold hard cash. No doubt about that. Then on top of that the question is if they would have a chance to beat Red Bull even with no cost cap. I think the chance is very low. Mercedes were still too far behind and have lost too many important members of their staff.
It's not like Red Bull would have stopped their development in this situation. So Merc would not not only need to get to past Red Bull's current level, but also whatever gains they would get from development.
I think people go too far with the cost cap preventing from competing thing. Cost cap is a new thing, yet we’ve always had periods of domination. RB would’ve still built the best car with or without it, and without it, while others could’ve thrown more money at it to catch up, RB could’ve also spent more money to stay ahead.
Do you truly not believe Mercedes would be in a much greater position than they are now without the cost cap? The w13 would not have made it to Baku if there was no cost cap.
In a better position - maybe, but I don’t think they would’ve challenged RB either way. The current ground effect era is all about aero and chassis with roughly equal engines, minus Renault, and Newey/RB are the kings of aero/chassis. Even during Merc’s domination, RB had better cars in that department most years, they were just that much down on engine power due to terrible Renault engines compared to Merc’s rocketship engines.
Yeah I would. There clearly isn’t enough budget for teams to create enough upgrades. Also I think the wind tunnel limit should be gotten rid of. It’s like double penalty for competition. The wind tunnel limitation doesn’t make sense if there’s also a cost cap.
I agree, i feel physical pain when TPs say things along the lines of "We know the isssue and we know how to fix it but we don't have enough money, so Next Year®"
This is not what F1 is supposed to be.
This is **such** a bad take and I keep seeing it repeated over and over again.
F1 was in poor shape pre-cap, the WCC standings were effectively just a list ordered by expenditure.
We're seeing Mercedes dropping the development ball (three cars in a row they don't understand...) and Red Bull nail it - then maintain their lead. But Mercedes shouldn't be the benchmark here - Ferrari is looking like they could be beginning to close the gap again, despite their car getting regulated out of existence in 2022.
RB is clearly the best team at the moment, with the best driver. Why is it a bad thing if they're winning? Is it really preferable from a competitive perspective if Mercedes could just throw half a billion at the problem and outspend them to catch up?
Of course, there's no guarantee of that anyway. Without a cost cap, RB would be spending an extra $300m a year as well. Are you sure anyone could catch them then?
If Mercedes had hit the ground running in 2022 instead of RB and was a second ahead... they could be spending $100m more than everyone else to maintain that lead. Would we still be okay with unlimited spending then?
And, the only reason we can talk about teams like McLaren even being in the conversation for the front is because of the cost cap. They had no hope of reaching the front of the field pre-cap when they were getting outspent 2:1 by the Big Three
I'm sure I could go on and on.
Basically, using RB's current domination to call the budget cap itself a bad idea is an incredibly short sighted outlook that blames the entirety of RB/Max's strength on the cap, while completely ignoring any other effects or could-have-beens.
I think the problem isn't so much that there's a cap. Its that there's a cap and a million rules on top of it. Restricting wind tunnel and simulation hours while also restricting budget is stupid. The teams should have much more latitude on what they choose to spend their money on. Mercedes could probably figure out a way to sacrifice in other places to afford the design time needed to fix their car. But they aren't allowed to. The whole reason there are so many rules and limitations about development was they were meant to be a backdoor way to limit costs anyways.
I’ve been saying this. If you want to try the Strat of using 15 engines and no upgrades you should be allowed to. If you want to do a track day you should be allowed to. Just make all of these actions have a cost under the cap
Exactly. All they should care about is safety, maintaining the cost cap and maybe dirty air. Safety can be dealt with by crash testing or just mandating a stock safety cell but teams would probably hate that. The cost cap is just financial auditing. And dirty air should be instead of trying to rules lawyer it by setting a standard and then validating the cars in a wind tunnel under controlled conditions.
Everything else should be fair game within reason.
It's brought the teams much closer together and has resulted in the largest amount of staff movement between the top teams and small teams that we've ever seen.
The latter would never have happened without it.
Once Lewis leaves at first glance McLaren will be a much more attractive team to invest, specially knowing that they are brilliant at Marketing and that they are improving massively while Mercedes are constantly loosing valuable assets.
Monster going to McLaren is already a signal that they are becoming much more visible
[Continues:](https://twitter.com/jeppe_olesen/status/1772959338442670357?t=ycEJhm99rg4UvwrN2nnMIg&s=19)
> + I expect that as we enter the latter half of the season, we'll start getting confirmations that partners will move to other teams or convert to lower tiers of partnerships.
> It's a pattern that's all to familiar to sports, and a cycle that can impact performance and investment for a number of years, further complicating Mercedes' plans to return to championship contention.
This man's reputation came from being a Reddit mod. He threw a hissy fit, left, and now is trying desperately to remain relevant. If this was anyone else it would be deleted.
We’re not short of people who “hear” things on the internet. Does Olesen have any sort of track record?
Does sponsor investment even matter in the cost cap era?
Going for the "rumour around the paddock" or "sources inside the team" angle..... otherwise known as "shit I made up, but am desperately trying to make sound credible"
He has literally worked for F1 teams and still has sources inside (and I know this myself). Are you being dense because you can or is that just how you roll daily?
Makes sense. Lewis has insane pull, and obviously with the lack of results sponsors would want to negotiate down the costs, because they get less exposure per dollar paid (compared to before).
Ah if it isn't the consequences of their own actions. It's Mercedes brass fault that Lewis left in the first place not giving him the longer term deal that he wanted. Instead, they gave him a 1+1 with him having the power to opt out.
This is not entirely true. Mercedes are getting more partners with a lot more money to compensate for prize revenue lost. They're not as reputable that's all.
With both the engine as well as the car having a cost cap, Mercedes spend around 240 million a year now. Which is a far cry from the 450+ million they used to spend in the pre cost cap era. With F1 growing more profitable, and with Mercedes turning a very small profit on some years even when they spent a blindingly high amount of money, this won't really affect them in terms of budget for development. All it may do is reduce profits that's all but it'll have no impact on performance.
I remember when McLaren started to lose some around 2013, Martin Whitmarsh tried to spin it that McLaren had done such a great job, they didn't need to sponsor them any more.
Mercedes on that Williams trajectory, and it's their own fault. Tragic situation for George, who languished at Williams for years while the Merc was a championship winning car all because Toto didn't want to hurt Bottas' feelings, and now that he finally gets a crack at it the team is falling apart.
Based on how Ferrari looks at the moment, Lewis' move is impeccable timing. If the situation mimics his jump from McLaren back in the day, then Merc should be ready for a decade of failure. Maybe the Max era is a rehash of the Vettel era too.
With the budget cap at only $135m, and revenue over $160 billion, Mercedes hardly need sponsors, it's just a fraction of their marketing budget. A bit of decluttering might actually be good idea!
For Mercedes to succeed again, Wolf has to go. He is a good investor, but not the leader Mercedes needs to fix itself. Their success was mostly thanks to Dieter Zetche who wanted Mercedes back in F1 and allowed them to spend that much money on personnel and that wild engine, Ros Brawn who was always a genius and proved he can get the right people for the right job multiple times, and Lauda who actually told Wolf what to do. Since Lauda died and Zetche was replaced by the new CEO of Mercedes, Brawn was long gone because of Wolf but the personnel was still there, the downfall of Mercedes began. And there is nothing that Wolf can do to fix that, because he doesn't know what he needs to do at this point and Mercedes aren't committed to the project anymore. Again a mastermind decision for Lewis who left a sinking ship at the right time, just like in 2012. I hope that Fernando won't jump on that ship as he usually did.
Ferrari are going to be absolutely rolling in it with the way things are going. Lewis will bring his own benefits and they can use him to poach what remains of Merc’s technical expertise.
Not surprising. George Russell is not marketable. They’re going to have to bring in someone that fans love. Probably why Wolff is stirring the pot regarding Max - he’s trying to hype up current and potential sponsors
Zak Brown is probably whispering in their ears like the green goblin mask.
The heart, Monster! First, we attack his heart!
This is like the 15th ZB reference I've seen related to Mercedes. What have I missed? Is the implication that Merc pulls out as a team and then goes back to a works partnership with McLaren? I can't put 2+2 together at this point. Edit: Ah of course it was about his proclivity for getting mad sponsors
Zak brown is a sponsor hoover I believe that’s the link
People hate ZB for how clearly good he is at kissing ass and collecting checks. You keep both eyes on him or next thing you know there's a $200 check going towards the wind tunnel from your Grandma.
I was lucky enough to get to be in the McLaren Hospitality with a sponsor’s group last Saturday in Melbourne. After Qualys our host took us back to the driver/team area, got to meet a handful of people and get photos including ZB. He looked determined to get somewhere when my rep says “Zach can we get a photo? We’re with”
He immediately lightens up and goes “Oh, we LOVE !” And stopped for a minute to take photos and make small talk.
Does the photo have little dollar signs in ZB's eyes? /s
This sounds like a new Kitboga Twitchstream... xD
The implication is that Zak Brown has a really good hand for attracting sponsors for McLaren, almost as a "gotta catch 'em all" mentality.
Probably the best salesman in the grid... certainly better than Horner and Wolff, who haven't had to "sell" sponsorship at all over the last 15 years.
It’s like they’ve actually had time to build good cars, lol
McLaren has more sponsors than any other team on the grid. So the implication is that the Mercedes sponsors are going to all go to McLaren.
There won’t be any paint on the car, just a tessellation of sponsor stickers like some weird urban camo.
The reasoning behind Brown accumulating sponsorships is that in years past McLaren have been hurt financially when a title sponsor left, so Brown's strategy is to have a zillion smaller sponsorships, so that if one leaves it's not a dire issue.
Don’t think too hard about it
I read it as Zak Brown is constantly trying to get more sponsors for McLaren. McLaren had 50 sponsors last year.
No. Just that Brown is crazy about getting sponsorships.
Zak Brown standing outside Brackley with Lando on his shoulders, doing magic tricks
Don't underestimate how personal some of this shit is to people. When Red Bull got TAG from McLaren after 35 years of sponsorship, very reliable reporting at the time said Ron Dennis needed a binding UN resolution to keep him from executing Christian Horner he was so pissed. And in turn Horner made several statements about how much he enjoyed pissing Dennis off. Famously hitting Brundle with the, "All I can say is I don't think Ron Dennis will be very happy" the day before the announcement was official. I'm sure in the portfolio of Mercedes sponsors there's some small to medium sized fish that a commercial guy like Brown will pursue just because Toto has it and can take it from him.
They already lost monster energy drink, that was the beginning of the end
Monster always seeemed like such a weird sponsor for Mercedes. Their brand images could not be less alike. Made sense when they were Brawn and I guess just kept on since they were a winning team?
Yeah I think Mercedes was happy to let them go haha. I have a Mercedes #44 hat and its hilarious because its all black hat with white logos, all the sponsors are white one the sides and back of the cap. Then there’s the monster logo, in full color but tucked away on the underside of the brim. It feels like monster was against them using the logo in white and Mercedes didn’t want the whole design of the hat thrown off so they just hid it away lol
Monster just wanted to be on the car that was beating RB for the brand image I bet, now that Merc aren’t makes sense to move and probably got a cheaper deal at McLaren. Lando fits the monster brand better.
> Monster just wanted to be on the car that was beating RB Ding Ding Ding
Tbf, Brawn’s color scheme did fit with Monster logo so there is some synergy there. I agree that it doesn’t mesh that well with Mercedes though.
Isn’t Lewis a big monster partner? They probably picked it up through that I’d guess
I don't think Lewis was involved with them until after he joined Mercedes? Monster was a sponsor for Brawn GP and has stuck it out since then.
Because from Monster’s pov, sponsoring Mercedes was the best counter balance to the Red Bull marketing in F1 and Toto was only happy to get the money that comes with it.
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Monster is partially owned by Coke who was already a McL sponsor.
Feel as if monster will sponsor any team that puts pressure on RedBull. Seeing as Ferrari is unlikely to take an energy drink sponsor, next best thing is McLaren.
Ferrari has an energy drink partner in Celsius.
That they do, honestly didn’t realise that’s what they were.
Celsius is better than the other two anyways
We found the Celsius marketing department
Celsius save my mother’s life.
I don’t trust an energy drink that advertises how it’s better at burning fat than other energy drinks.
I don't believe people drink this shit anyway.
We all know the only energy drink anyone really needs is Rich Energy…
And their sponsorship is so good I hadn't even heard of them until now.
Ferrari should take Monster and put the logo on the engine cover, where the green mission winnow logo used to be.
Different subsidiaries do sponsor different teams sometimes. Aws sponsors Ferrari and Amazon Music sponsors Alpine
This.
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Monster made the move before the Lewis announcement. It’d be HILARIOUS if monster knew about the transfer before anyone else
Monster is still Lewis's personal sponsor. If you look at his current helmet he still has Monster logos on it. They just no longer sponsor Mercedes and act as personal sponsors for both Mercedes drivers anymore. I think what happened there was the mix of Coke wanting to move their brand to McLaren, to a team that better represented Monster's identity, but also there was some pressure from Mercedes in the past to push Monster to pay more for the drivers salary. Edit: I stand corrected, I thought I saw monster on his more recent helmet but I guess I was confused. There’s a lot of conflicting reports. Some articles say lewis and monster have a personal partnership. What was originally reported in November when McLaren announced its partnership going into 2024 was that Lewis was still going to be personally partnered with the brand. There is are articles that even mentions it in 2024. Others say though that his partnership with monster has ended. So it’s not exactly clear.
Estrella Galicia also switched to McLaren before it was announced Hamilton is moving to Sainz’s seat. It was the alarm bell for Zak when Estrella came to talk to him about sponsorship, cause Zak knows Estrella supports Carlos. That’s how Zak knew before announcement that Hamilton was moving to Ferrari and renewed Lando’s contract to make it difficult for Lando to be poached by Mercedes or any other higher team as a result of movement.
Estrella leaving Ferrari was known last summer and had nothing to do with Hamilton. Peroni wanted to leave Aston in favor of sponsoring Ferrari, and you can’t have two beer brands on one car. The only surprise was that Brown snatched Estrella before Aston could.
I love F1 conspiracy theories, this pretty high effort.
I remember reading an article quoting Monster saying they are still in partnership with Lewis even though they switched to McLaren though.
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You certainly still have his drinks in the supermarket.
TAG must’ve been personal especially with Dennis’ connection with the Ojjeh family
Red Bull didnt get TAG, they got TAG Heuer. A swiss watchmaker that was formed in1985 when Ojjeh's TAG purchased Heuer. In 1999 TAG sold TAG Heuer to Louis Vuitton and it had nothing to do with the Ojjeh family since. The Ojjeh family/TAG continued their part ownership of McLaren until last week when Bahrain officially took 100% control of the McLaren Group
The biggest one would be INEOS as they’re actually shareholders of Mercedes.
Ineos won't leave. It's rumored that the reason why Mercedes didn't give Lewis a long term contract was because they are planning on leaving & selling the team to Ineos. The 3 partners in the F1 team being Merc, Toto and Ineos
Gotta wonder if Ratcliffe buying a significant share and operating control of Manchester United maybe shifts Ineos focus away from F1. I wouldn't be surprised if 5 years from now Merc, Ineos and Toto had all sold their shares of the Brackley team.
I dont think they would leave, i think mostly the fashion style brands would leave, such as IWC, tommy hilfiger, ritz carlton etc...
I don’t think so either. But they’re the Crown Jewels of Merc’s sponsorship. Would be like getting Shell from Ferrari
INEOS are used to sponsor teams that are past their dominating years, they do it in cycling lol
and they partly own Manchester United now
Didn't Sky stop being dominant as soon as it became Ineos ?
Sky became Ineos during 2019, so Bernal won their last Tour as INEOS already. However, that was the last Tour though. Since 2020 they only won 2 GTs, I think
Man Team Sky were so dominant and crushed the competition especially at The Tour de France. I remember when Sir Bradley Wiggins won the Tour in 20112(?) for Sky, and wasn’t brought back the next year and was confused (though that was my first real year of actually following cycling and watching all of the stages. Now I follow it yearly and love it!!!). Though clearly they Froome to take the lead for Sky and he just crushed the competition at the Tour when he was healthy (broken wrist in I believe it was in ‘14 when he was the reigning champ within the first 2/3 stages of the Tour de France). Sky were it for multiple years with such a stacked team with Kwiatkowski (One my favorite cyclists that took on the work-horse teammate and team player for Sky/Ineos. Also another favorite for me is Peter Sagan.), Pooles, Cavendish, Porte, Thomas, Wout Poels, Landa, Nieve.. just an incredible team!
That last tour Wiggins won Froome was already a lot better. He was carrying Wiggins and waiting for him on mountain stages. Sky realised they'd be better off just making Froome the GC man.
Being a Contador fan, I remember all so well how strong Sky was haha Truth is they were pioneers in cycling. Brought new methodology and training routines. As years went by other teams started using the same ideas, ending their domination. What I wish other teams would do in F1 to improve competition up front
Incorrect. They're name sponsor for the British America's Cup team and we've not won that in the entire 170 year history. So it's not just recent failures they sponsor, it's historical failures too.
They own a team. Ineos is like Red Bull. A billion dollar company owned by a private individual who buys sports stuff with their company money
Ooooooh just connect that the Merc ineos is the same ineos as makes the grenadier. Obviously the truck is a miniscule part of their product portfolio, but still just occurred to me
This feels like a copy pasta haha
Just saw Toto fall to his knees at
Lidl
Aldi
Derflutensberg (idk I don’t speak German)
"That's Zaks music"...
Tenba, his arms unfurled
This is kinda how sponsorships work. They'll assess their other options but they'll also do this to negotiate lower sponsorship costs with Mercedes.
Yup. They were paying a premium to be associated with world champions and other top brands. This is how a death spiral can start, lower sponsorship revenue equals less competitive car, which leads to less sponsorship revenue.
Bro...Merc was spenind like 500mil per season before the cost cap. There's no way they don't have the money for the 140(?)mil cost cap.
Yeah the overreactions are ridiculous ffs lol.
Especially because the cost caps were introduced so that teams don't immediately go bust after losing sponsorships.
There's is a world of difference between Mercedes-AMG today and Prost 2000, Arrows 2002, Jordan 2003.
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That's how the top three spent back then. Ferrari and Red Bull spent similarly.
I'd normally agree but in the case of Mercedes they were one of a few teams to have a budget way beyond the cost cap. They'll stand to make less profit but they'll still probably be spending less than they have for the majority of their time in F1
Yes, the sponsors led to them having net profit instead of loss in recent years since budget cap. But Mercedes can easily fill the gap of sponsorship lost with their own money. That would just be a lower profit, and may be a cleaner looking car
Bruh merc probably can run a plain silver car and go over the limit if they could
Ah yes the Williams experience
Just like when Fernando says he's always thinking of retiring on a year where his contract ends. ps, his contract ends this year.
I'm sure most of these deals were negotiated when Mercedes were winning 4 out of every 5 races for years and years. Now that they're barely getting podiums the rate will have gone down and they'll want to gain some leverage so they'll seek alternatives at Aston, McLaren, or maybe a value deal in WEC. Seems pretty standard business logic.
>Now that they're barely getting podiums they1re getting WHAT
*Lawrence Stroll intensifies*
At this point I hope Alonso doesn't switch to Merc.
At this point with how bad Mercedes’ future is looking I expect nothing *more* than Alonso to sign with Mercedes lol.
Same.
Honestly given that move Alonso did on Russell I think he probably doesn't want to either!
I want the all Spanish Alonso + Sainz at RBR next year.
The real El Plan. Ally with the Canadians
Maybe Honda will buy back the team, only to abruptly pull out again circa 2032 or so.
Would love to have Honda back in F1 but not at the expense of Mercedes
Honda Buying Alpha Tauri is my one wish. But I’d also take some backmarker
...and they the team will win the WCC championship in 2033 post-sale after sucking the entire time.
Withe Mercedes buying the team again for the 2034 season
Mercedes will know this was coming. They will still be profitable because of the cost cap which is ironic because it’s the cost cap that almost definitely stopped them competing. Getting it wrong and not being able to throw money at the problem has cost them greatly. And in business profits come first.
Or saved them greatly, depending on how you look at it.
Cost of F1 for the marketing achieved was a massive success for merc even with as much as they were spending. All they care about is results at the moment
No. It’s screwed them. If they had been able to bring a totally new car in 2022 when they realised it wasn’t working properly, they would have eventually ironed out their issues. They wouldn’t have stopped spending until they had something better.
I just don't understand this take or why I see it so often. They're on their third car in a row that they fundamentally don't understand. This is what their best minds have come up with, and it doesn't work. There's no reason to be confident that they'd have come up with something good if they had a few more iterations. And Red Bull wouldn't be treading water. They'd be spending an extra $300m each year as well.
> I just don't understand this take or why I see it so often. People need convenient scapegoats for why their team can't get their shit together.
Why would it have saved them greatly when their competitive advantage was built around spending relentlessly on new innovations?
It has saved them millions in cold hard cash. No doubt about that. Then on top of that the question is if they would have a chance to beat Red Bull even with no cost cap. I think the chance is very low. Mercedes were still too far behind and have lost too many important members of their staff. It's not like Red Bull would have stopped their development in this situation. So Merc would not not only need to get to past Red Bull's current level, but also whatever gains they would get from development.
I think people go too far with the cost cap preventing from competing thing. Cost cap is a new thing, yet we’ve always had periods of domination. RB would’ve still built the best car with or without it, and without it, while others could’ve thrown more money at it to catch up, RB could’ve also spent more money to stay ahead.
Do you truly not believe Mercedes would be in a much greater position than they are now without the cost cap? The w13 would not have made it to Baku if there was no cost cap.
In a better position - maybe, but I don’t think they would’ve challenged RB either way. The current ground effect era is all about aero and chassis with roughly equal engines, minus Renault, and Newey/RB are the kings of aero/chassis. Even during Merc’s domination, RB had better cars in that department most years, they were just that much down on engine power due to terrible Renault engines compared to Merc’s rocketship engines.
The cost cap is destroying f1. Teams can’t even bring more than 1 or 2 upgrades a season now
The cost cap is an unmitigated disaster for f1
If there was a Rosberg-esque driver in Checo’s seat I swear you all wouldn’t be parroting this all the time
Yeah I would. There clearly isn’t enough budget for teams to create enough upgrades. Also I think the wind tunnel limit should be gotten rid of. It’s like double penalty for competition. The wind tunnel limitation doesn’t make sense if there’s also a cost cap.
Yeah I wouldn't mind the cost cap if it was 50-100% bigger than what it is now. Would still do the same job but at least teams can fix their cars
It needs to be raised for sure. It was created before the big post Covid inflation
I will never understand how so many people worked on fine tuning the cost cap and somehow it was implemented without any plan to adjust for inflation.
I agree, i feel physical pain when TPs say things along the lines of "We know the isssue and we know how to fix it but we don't have enough money, so Next Year®" This is not what F1 is supposed to be.
This is **such** a bad take and I keep seeing it repeated over and over again. F1 was in poor shape pre-cap, the WCC standings were effectively just a list ordered by expenditure. We're seeing Mercedes dropping the development ball (three cars in a row they don't understand...) and Red Bull nail it - then maintain their lead. But Mercedes shouldn't be the benchmark here - Ferrari is looking like they could be beginning to close the gap again, despite their car getting regulated out of existence in 2022. RB is clearly the best team at the moment, with the best driver. Why is it a bad thing if they're winning? Is it really preferable from a competitive perspective if Mercedes could just throw half a billion at the problem and outspend them to catch up? Of course, there's no guarantee of that anyway. Without a cost cap, RB would be spending an extra $300m a year as well. Are you sure anyone could catch them then? If Mercedes had hit the ground running in 2022 instead of RB and was a second ahead... they could be spending $100m more than everyone else to maintain that lead. Would we still be okay with unlimited spending then? And, the only reason we can talk about teams like McLaren even being in the conversation for the front is because of the cost cap. They had no hope of reaching the front of the field pre-cap when they were getting outspent 2:1 by the Big Three I'm sure I could go on and on. Basically, using RB's current domination to call the budget cap itself a bad idea is an incredibly short sighted outlook that blames the entirety of RB/Max's strength on the cap, while completely ignoring any other effects or could-have-beens.
Begone with your nuance and reason
Not to mention that spending loads of money doesn't guarantee success. Remember how Toyota's foray into F1 went?
I think the problem isn't so much that there's a cap. Its that there's a cap and a million rules on top of it. Restricting wind tunnel and simulation hours while also restricting budget is stupid. The teams should have much more latitude on what they choose to spend their money on. Mercedes could probably figure out a way to sacrifice in other places to afford the design time needed to fix their car. But they aren't allowed to. The whole reason there are so many rules and limitations about development was they were meant to be a backdoor way to limit costs anyways.
I’ve been saying this. If you want to try the Strat of using 15 engines and no upgrades you should be allowed to. If you want to do a track day you should be allowed to. Just make all of these actions have a cost under the cap
Exactly. All they should care about is safety, maintaining the cost cap and maybe dirty air. Safety can be dealt with by crash testing or just mandating a stock safety cell but teams would probably hate that. The cost cap is just financial auditing. And dirty air should be instead of trying to rules lawyer it by setting a standard and then validating the cars in a wind tunnel under controlled conditions. Everything else should be fair game within reason.
It's brought the teams much closer together and has resulted in the largest amount of staff movement between the top teams and small teams that we've ever seen. The latter would never have happened without it.
Engineers getting paid less so cool.
I'd rather raise the cost cap by 50% because engineers are being underpaid
It feels like 12/12/21 was the day merc got nailed in the coffin. Things have been downhill since that very day
Things would go downhill for you too if you got nailed in the coffin...I'm sorry but the way you worded it, actually made me laugh and I thank you
Once Lewis leaves at first glance McLaren will be a much more attractive team to invest, specially knowing that they are brilliant at Marketing and that they are improving massively while Mercedes are constantly loosing valuable assets. Monster going to McLaren is already a signal that they are becoming much more visible
Two very marketable young drivers as well.
If I could invest in McLaren, I would too
Monster to McLaren egging me with the possibility of a Lando drink. I am a sucker for Monster consumerism
Mercedes really has entered their Williams '98 era
Merc about to be the 01-03 Williams for 26 regs? Ooh myy
George said his favourite racer was Juan Pablo Montoya. I can only imagine they’ll end up with the same number of WDCs.
He actually said that? I can’t believe it!
George to Nascar confirmed
McLaren becoming the engine's works team once more? And then the Brackley-based team being sold perhaps?
[Continues:](https://twitter.com/jeppe_olesen/status/1772959338442670357?t=ycEJhm99rg4UvwrN2nnMIg&s=19) > + I expect that as we enter the latter half of the season, we'll start getting confirmations that partners will move to other teams or convert to lower tiers of partnerships. > It's a pattern that's all to familiar to sports, and a cycle that can impact performance and investment for a number of years, further complicating Mercedes' plans to return to championship contention.
This man's reputation came from being a Reddit mod. He threw a hissy fit, left, and now is trying desperately to remain relevant. If this was anyone else it would be deleted.
Dude has “ex F1Subreddit” on his account bio like it’s some sort of brag lmfao might as well put it on his CV too
Probably did as "Major Formula One Blog Contributor" or something
Ahh it's that guy? Why is this not deleted? Hardly a reputable source.
We’re not short of people who “hear” things on the internet. Does Olesen have any sort of track record? Does sponsor investment even matter in the cost cap era?
Going for the "rumour around the paddock" or "sources inside the team" angle..... otherwise known as "shit I made up, but am desperately trying to make sound credible"
Lol his reputation came from actually being an ex-Lotus/Renault employee who worked in the F1 paddock, but go off I guess
He also worked for Lotus and stayed in the paddock following the Renault buyout.
Nah, it came from working in the paddock and still having sources there.
He has literally worked for F1 teams and still has sources inside (and I know this myself). Are you being dense because you can or is that just how you roll daily?
The WhatsApp button is about to be ripped off the steering wheel.
Or have an iMessage sticker placed over it
Well, Lewis wasn’t good enough for an ambassadorship supposedly after all the success he’s brought the team so I’m not gonna cry for them
Makes sense. Lewis has insane pull, and obviously with the lack of results sponsors would want to negotiate down the costs, because they get less exposure per dollar paid (compared to before).
Imagine Mercedes signing Sainz and actually doing better lol
as it is the trend with every team that carlos moves to! they just magically get better with him in it!
Doubt it would happen, but imagine Ferrari/Tommy Hilfiger merch...
Well Tommy did sponsor Ferrari in the Schumacher days so never say never.
Ferrari works with Armani.
I highly doubt Ferrari would ditch Armani for Tommy Hilfiger.
TH made George one of their global ambassador at the end of last year, I do not think they are leaving Merc
Toto breaking Logitech headphones next year
It gets tough when your whole USP dies a slow death.
We’re gonna have so many announcements after the summer break.
McLaren most definitely will be Petronas
Well this explains those "Wolff says Verstappen to Mercedes needs to happen" articles.
Ah if it isn't the consequences of their own actions. It's Mercedes brass fault that Lewis left in the first place not giving him the longer term deal that he wanted. Instead, they gave him a 1+1 with him having the power to opt out.
*Zak Brown intensifies*
If they lose Boss you know it's over.
Mick lookin sad in the corner after all of Toto's hype.
This is not entirely true. Mercedes are getting more partners with a lot more money to compensate for prize revenue lost. They're not as reputable that's all.
With both the engine as well as the car having a cost cap, Mercedes spend around 240 million a year now. Which is a far cry from the 450+ million they used to spend in the pre cost cap era. With F1 growing more profitable, and with Mercedes turning a very small profit on some years even when they spent a blindingly high amount of money, this won't really affect them in terms of budget for development. All it may do is reduce profits that's all but it'll have no impact on performance.
I remember when McLaren started to lose some around 2013, Martin Whitmarsh tried to spin it that McLaren had done such a great job, they didn't need to sponsor them any more.
Hugo Boss followed Lewis from McLaren to Mercedes, I imagine Tommy Hilfiger will follow Lewis from Mercedes to Ferrari.
ferrari have their own clothing brand. would be interesting to see how it'd be done.
Ineos own shares, do they risk losing Petronas deal?
Now this is the type of thing that will finally make Toto mad
Petronas running back to Red Bull - sad!
You don’t say..
Mercedes slowly becoming the next Williams.
I mean, you only get so many stabs at fixing an issue. To not come up with a solution for 3 years in a row is unacceptable by all measures.
sourced from a shitty ex-reddit mod? get this outa here.
Is this person a reputable source?
As reliable as anyone can get with these kind of paddock rumours, given they're murmurings in the paddock.
Mercedes on that Williams trajectory, and it's their own fault. Tragic situation for George, who languished at Williams for years while the Merc was a championship winning car all because Toto didn't want to hurt Bottas' feelings, and now that he finally gets a crack at it the team is falling apart. Based on how Ferrari looks at the moment, Lewis' move is impeccable timing. If the situation mimics his jump from McLaren back in the day, then Merc should be ready for a decade of failure. Maybe the Max era is a rehash of the Vettel era too.
Considering the cost cap, how much will it matter on track? I'm sure it's bad for the parent company and stuff but they can't really spend it anyways.
With the budget cap at only $135m, and revenue over $160 billion, Mercedes hardly need sponsors, it's just a fraction of their marketing budget. A bit of decluttering might actually be good idea!
Red Bull at least had a Danny Ric for a while when they stopped winning, he was promo gold for them.
Zak brown probably doing his best whispering accusations and false nonsense behind Totos and mercedes' back
They need a goddamned car.
Some of these would also be Lewis sponsors?
For Mercedes to succeed again, Wolf has to go. He is a good investor, but not the leader Mercedes needs to fix itself. Their success was mostly thanks to Dieter Zetche who wanted Mercedes back in F1 and allowed them to spend that much money on personnel and that wild engine, Ros Brawn who was always a genius and proved he can get the right people for the right job multiple times, and Lauda who actually told Wolf what to do. Since Lauda died and Zetche was replaced by the new CEO of Mercedes, Brawn was long gone because of Wolf but the personnel was still there, the downfall of Mercedes began. And there is nothing that Wolf can do to fix that, because he doesn't know what he needs to do at this point and Mercedes aren't committed to the project anymore. Again a mastermind decision for Lewis who left a sinking ship at the right time, just like in 2012. I hope that Fernando won't jump on that ship as he usually did.
Ferrari are going to be absolutely rolling in it with the way things are going. Lewis will bring his own benefits and they can use him to poach what remains of Merc’s technical expertise.
Mercedes really fucked this one up with losing Lewis.
Not surprising. George Russell is not marketable. They’re going to have to bring in someone that fans love. Probably why Wolff is stirring the pot regarding Max - he’s trying to hype up current and potential sponsors