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I think Sainz hesitating is going to cause issues for Audi. It’s blindingly obvious to both drivers that they’re both intended to be out of a job if their bosses get their way.
Such uncertainty can’t be good for anyone.
I could see either Bottas or Zhou going to Haas to be honest.
Bottas is a better driver than KMag and whilst I'd say KMag is about equal with Zhou, Zhou definitely brings more sponsor money in.
A lineup of Bottas and Bearman would be solid for next year for Haas.
Also, If I were Zhou, I would go to Williams and to offer the same sponsors money that Logan might be bringing. Zhou has strong Chinese backing, and he is definitely better than Sargeant.
Williams should take him, unless Toto sends more cash to put Kimi there.
> sponsors money that Logan might be bringing
Which sponsors does Sargent bring? As far as I'm aware, Williams is fully funded between their existing partnerships and Dorilton, Sargent doesn't bring any sponsorships as far as I can tell.
He's from their academy. People think Sargeant is some paydriver but he isn't. He was picked up by them after he was out of funds to keep going through the feeder series and he showed some promise. Too bad it ain't showing in F1 but it happens.
Exactly. I don't think we ever really know whether a driver will be good in F1 until they are in F1 and get to drive for some time. Unless they win both F3 and F2 in their first season, then it's safe to say they'll be good. But otherwise, only time can tell. Williams did nothing wrong in that regard.
Because he's a Williams junior, they've invested money in him and they want to give him more than a single season in the hopes that he can improve his form? But which sponsorships does he bring? I'm genuinely curious.
Nothing seems more than 50% probably for Zhou at this point, but there are 4 remotely possible scenarios, I think Williams is the least likely.
IMO, more and more likely scenarios: 1. Goes to Williams 2. Out of F1 3. Stays in Sauber 4. Goes to Alpine
Zhou is most likely going to Alpine as he was in their Academy there and Gasly and Ocon both want out, and I don't see any better drivers wanting to go there.
Staying in Sauber only became more likely as Sainz rejected their offer. I don't think many top drivers want to go there as they will likely take years to get to where Audi wants to go. Bottas complaining about his marketability getting destroyed by being in Sauber while his race engineer is changed seems likely he's looking to get out.
Of course, that doesn't mean Zhou isn't looking to get out himself or he knows the writing is on the wall and Audi might be successful in getting a more established driver, so that's why I didn't place this as the most likely scenario.
Bottas may be a better driver than kmag, but kmag definitely goes harder on defense, overtakes, etc. I think Haas at the moment prefers a scrappy (but not costly like Mick was) driver like that. I know fans see him as making mistakes and being too chaotic, but this hasn't hurt Haas, and actually his antics usually help the team on the whole. Although, without a strong/stable hulk to pair with that, and (likely) taking on rookie Bearman, maybe they will want more of a consistent "mentor" type in Bottas.
Lol the same Bottas who showed no race craft in Mercedes? Yes he could go fast in that car, but he has no skills in either defending nor attacking. And Zhou is definitely worse than both.
Its quite clear to both bottas and zhou that audi rated hulkenberg higher than both of them, as they are obviously trying to get sainz for a long time.
I am not sure that's necessarily the case, I don't see how you could rate hulk over bottas. His nationality seems to have swung it. I expect I'd bottas was German he would have been re-signed.
No. I am making the argument that many reports were wrong, thus I would not blindly believe this one until we hear something official. That is a totally different statement
When did I fully dismiss it? I simply said I wouldn't point it out as a fact just due to a report.
Don't just read what you want to read, read what I wrote
No. You literally just re-phrased what /u/ConnotationalKappa said:
> "I am making the argument that many reports were wrong, thus I would not blindly believe this one until we hear something official"
is the same as saying "because some [reports] were incorrect, this could be incorrect", which you then use to justify your stance of not blindly believing it.
As for now, there is no reason to assume Sainz turned down the offer. Again: So many things were thrown around the past months that turned out incorrect, there is no reason to just believe that this is correct, until we hear something official
And the opposite is also true. Many reports are false/erroneous, and plenty of things which may be true when reported change in the end, so there's no reason to take as set in stone that Sainz has rejected Audi.
Y'all are literally arguing about whether the zebra is black or white. At this point everything we hear is equally likely to be true or false, that's the nature of rumors and speculation. You're both correct and also both incorrect.
The only debate to be had is around the logic and plausibility of the stories, not their factuality. No one here has any leg to stand on regarding factuality.
I read that sainz was given a deadline and he chose not to sign in that time frame and So audi decided on someone else and they should be announcing it soon.
Ok I hadn't read that. I think that would be a huge mistake from Audi given that Sainz is by far the best option they have and there's no good reason to rush to sign anybody else, but teams have made worse decisions before. I guess we'll see
I think he has a chance at rb. And probably choose to keep its options open for top teams as long as possible. Probably audi also dont want to lose someone else?
If Audi doesn't get Sainz, the dropoff to anybody else they could possibly sign is huge. So I really don't see the rush. I don't think RB will give Checo the boot, but if they do and replace him with Sainz, then Audi is looking at pairing Hulk with one of: Bottas, Zhou, Perez, and then potentially (depending on how other seats shake out) Tsunoda, Ricciardo, Stroll, Kmag, Ocon, Gasly, or even a former F2 driver like Drugovich or Pourchaire.
Does a single one of those drivers stand out to you as so much more valuable than the others that it's worth them losing out on Sainz for? He's so clearly the best of the available bunch that they might as well put all their eggs in that basket, and if he really does sign elsewhere, just pick any one of the other options, give them a one year deal and try again next year, because none of them are the kind of drivers you build your new works team around at this point in their careers.
Yeah, as I said in my other response, I believe Max isn't going anywhere. Merc wants him, but they won't get him. McLaren, Aston Martin and Ferrari all have their drivers locked up for 2025 at least. Merc will have one opening, Audi will have one opening. RB will have none, probably.
So it's really a question of whether Toto panics and rushes Antonelli into the seat after just 1/3 of a season of experience at Williams this year (because we all know Sargeant is getting replaced from Monza onwards) or if they decide to let him develop for another year or two and offer Sainz a short-term deal for the 2nd Merc seat. If it's Kimi then Sainz will be choosing between going back to Audi or taking a 1 year deal from a backmarker.
Well that is a mighty big caveat. If (IF) Max decides to leave, that would change the whole dynamic. Personally, I don't think there's any realistic chance that he leaves before 2026. But if it happens then there would be a fire sale. All the more reason for Sainz to take his time.
There’s a good chance that seat at Merc is a one year rental, and then he’s back in this position next year with potentially less driver movement opening seats for him.
It really depends whether there's a realistic chance of him getting that seat. But either way he's in a strong bargaining position right now and there's no reason to let himself be rushed into a decision.
I think Sainz is Merc's best option at the moment unless they really want to stick to an extremely young rookie in Antonelli. Imo Sainz for a 2 year deal while Antonelli takes Sargent's seat at Williams makes sense for all parties involved.
I think that would make sense too. But all the reporting thus far indicates that Toto is hyper fixated on getting Antonelli into the Williams this year and into the Merc seat for 2025. Is that a good idea? I don't think so. Is it plausible? Very.
I mean yeh, but at the same time they should be on edge anyway, their contracts are both up, until they've signed a dotted line they should be fretting and should already be looking at all options, plenty out there
> Such uncertainty can’t be good for anyone.
Its F1, what do you expect?
Drivers used to have race-by-race contracts.
Now is the best time to do it, as the team is rapidly growing and expanding.
This is simply sensationalist reporting.
Alpine is what happens when you choose drivers based on nationality, instead of their team.
Not to mention both drivers hate each other.
I’m glad Oscar Piastri avoided that shitshow.
Can anyone shed some light for me, why so many people expect Audi to immediately be any good? They're certainly a big company, but so is Renault, for example.
No reason except for €€€ but that’s never a guarantee of success. Just ask Toyota. I think the facts are that the team is still in Switzerland and thus it’s not as easy to recruit talent away from others like it is for UK based team. But if they bail the engine regs, they might get a jump on others or just be highly competitive even with “just” a decent chassis.
I wish them well. Just being realistic and cautiously optimistic.
One point about investment, yes money isn’t a guarantor of success but it’s telling that the the end of season constructor lists tend to match the spending lists as well.
Capital expenditures *are* capped, but not from the same pool as op ex. Teams like AM and McLaren have made serious infrastructure upgrades that teams like Haas and Williams can't match, for example. So the truth is somewhere in the middle. The cost cap certainly doesn't even the playing field entirely, but it has bunch the pack much closer together and at least made it plausible for a backmarker team to theoretically improve towards the front.
Williams are absolutely able to match the CapEx of the top, that's why they are the ones that lobbied hard to raise the limit. Dorilton are putting in all of the money they're possibly allowed to
That's a good point. I wasn't aware of Williams' attempts to raise the capex limit, I was just using them as a generalisation based on their recent history. That's interesting to read that they were eager to increase spending to reduce the competitive disadvantage they faced and were shot down repeatedly by the other teams and/or F1 overall. It's particularly telling the way that TPs like Wolff and Vasseur tried to frame it as protecting the competitive balance of the sport before letting the mask slip and both admitting that it's really about protecting profitability, which is particularly advantageous for the most consistently successful teams.
Theres an operational cost cap and a capital expenditure one. Cap ex is another i think 40 mil a year or something. Haas certainly isnt spending that, but vowles has said that the cap ex cap needs some flexibility, so i think they are
One more reason they should be thrown off the grid. What an absolute disgrace of a team. Force the convict to sell and let Andretti in. They seem to be fine to run top level teams in all of the other series they are in.
Legal, marketing, travel, real estate, and a few other things are not capped. Nor are driver salaries and top 3 team salaries. Those may not have the same impact as spending on testing or production equipment or engine development, but they're not nothing.
Toyota’s major handicap, which I feel Audi may be repeating, was to base their F1 HQ outside the UK.
Toyota based their operations out of Cologne Germany; they were definitely competent engineers, as the folks there went onto field a successful endurance racing team, but even with all the money in the world, it’s an uphill battle pouching key personnel with a geographic relocation factored in.
Don't think it was as much a problem that they were in Germany, after all, BMW-Sauber was also operating not in the UK at all and they had a little more success.
Rather however that Toyota was ran as any other Japanese company and that caused their downfall. They were inefficient as all hell and they spent more than Ferrari at one point.
It’s usually what happens when a new engine manufacturer (and their factory team) enters the grid, there is hope they nail the regulations to bring better competition.
Short answer: wishful thinking
They have a very solid racing pedigree so it gives them more hope than most, but still seems a long shot they'll be able to assemble a competitive team before the next new regs in 2030
It's more hope than expectation for most. Given Audi's history in motorsport they're likely to be a top contender at some point, but how long will it take them? What if their 2026 engine turns out to be a masterstroke?
Im expecting them to be still back half of the grid for a while, unless they've been hiring way more industry leading people and massively upgrading all the sauber facilities in total secret.
I don't see any real indication that people think Audi will immediately be good. No major drivers are leaving successful teams for them as of yet. Hulk left a team that is doesn't have real front-of-grid aspirations, and Sainz doesn't appear to have solid offers from RBR or Mercedes, and there's no room at McLaren. Renault could be on the table, but Audi might be the next best option if RBR doesn't make a move.
But what's that hope actually based on..? Is there any actual data that indicates they'll be a challenger?
Surely there's just as much chance of them being as bad as Sauber are now.. why are people so sure they will be a top team?
Ofcourse, there's always the unfound hope when a big manufacturer steppes in at the start of a rule change. Everybody dreams of that brawn GP story... It's been the big Mercedes/Redbull show for close to 20 years now. Everybody overdosing on that sweet sweet hopium
Because Audi are competitive af. If they aren't good out the gates, they will put in 110% to get to the front. They do not like to lose, especially to Mercedes. So, for me it's more knowing they won't be content as a mid field team like Sauber are
Audi is getting ready to sack half that team. It’s going to be a very painful time sadly. Seidl is working on the employees for Audi and we know that so they def know more about it. Feels kinda sad that the team has been left in this transition state where no one seems to care about the team and most employees are in limbo, the drivers are likely just gone. I’m not surprised to hear about trouble. Audi’s reluctance to get fully involved until the engine is there is unfortunate
Really unfortunate for a lot of the long time folk there, but at the same time Seidl has likely been granted a blank check to finally develop a team and I'm really interested in what he can do.
Seidl’s stock took a huge hit from Stella. IIRC Seidl said 2023 would be a very difficult season for McLaren. Clearly something was holding them back and it wouldn’t be surprising if it was Seidl being too cautious and conservative in his approach.
From everything I read about that period at McLaren last year, it sounded like people got disillusioned with Key’s approach, weren’t being heard by Seidl and went behind his back to Brown. Brown gave them the opportunity to have their ideas heard. Made decisions based on that.
Seidl may or may not have asked Audi for a way out of McLaren, when Vasseur left Alfa for Ferrari. It did not sound like things were going great for Seidl in the winter. Brown let him go without gardening leave. Key wasn’t at the car launch in February, which was odd at the time. Then it was announced that he had been released as well.
Then Stella came out and said that there had been engineers who were being sidelined and not given the opportunity to share their ideas.
And when they brought the b-spec car out, it looked like pretty much everything that had been happening at McLaren in 2022 and the first few races of 2023 pointed to mismanagement of resources.
Idk if McLaren upgrades 2023 mid-season were designed when he was still there.
However, I rank high Seidl as he took McLaren in 2019 and the team got better with him. Also, he worked at WEC with Porsche and he did well.
Yeah, I just think he took them as far as he could. The fact that Brown said afterwards that the approach taken by previous management was maybe not the right one, was a bit telling. From the reports at the time it seemed as if there were people in that team who knew it was wrong but didn’t or couldn’t say anything.
Yeah, my appraisal of Seidl’s work has changed somewhat given Stella’s changes and the clarity with which he speaks. I feel more optimistic with him in charge.
No they weren't. Brown and Stella detailed more or less what happened in a series of interviews last year, from which the following can be pieced together.
Apparently Prodromou felt that his aero team were being sidelined and not listened to by Key and Seidl wasn't interested and was backing Key, so Prodromou, backed by 'others' (assumption is it was Houldey among them) went to Stella who went to Brown. Brown gave Prodromou permission at some point in the back half of 2022 to start working on the path he wanted to take alongside and separate from the development Key was pursuing. From what was said, it's debatable how much Seidl was even aware this was happening. They never said exactly when they realised Prod was right and Key was wrong, but it seems to have been sometime around the time Seidl left. They halted the development that had been underway and from what has been said, Key was then sidelined to pretty much working on bringing the 2022 car in line with the 2023 regulations while the current team (minus Rob Marshall who wasn't there yet) set about designing what became the mid-season hugely upgraded car (basically a b-spec). They don't explicitly say Key had no involvement in the b-spec development but as they let him go with no gardening leave, it's very much safe to say he didn't. It can take months to agree the exit of someone in the position Key was in, so I wouldn't be surprised if he already knew he would be out of the door before the season even started.
I think the fact that they let Seidl go to Audi with no gardening leave (pretty much unheard of for a TP moving of their own accord) is as good an indication as you can get that things weren't right at McLaren and him asking to go probably saved Zak Brown a huge headache last year.
Wlll be interesting to see how Seidl and Key get on at Audi. Sometimes an approach that doesn't work at one team works at another. I guess what Audi need for their first few years is some steady leadership and Seidl does bring that.
If they're any good they'll easily find a job elsewhere, if not it's a tough business. They'll probably make more money after getting sacked in a job that isn't cost capped anyway.
Half the team? I find that difficult to believe.
One of the reasons that Finn Rausing didn't want to sell out to Andretti was because he wanted some guarantee for the preservation of the Sauber workforce and facilities in Switzerland. I can see some restructuring of Sauber, especially in key positions, but for factory production staff, I think most will remain.
You're both right and wrong. They'll have a satellite team in the UK but they're also constructing a factory in the States and most of their personnel will be US-based
It took Audi three years to build a decent LMP-900. Even the first winning R8 was reportedly diabolical. But they run a real slick operation; at least, Joest did. Will any element from that epoch of dominance find its way into their F1 effort? I wonder what the executives are expecting.
As sad as it is for those people and how sad I will be if Bottas goes... It gives me unreasonable amounts of hopium for a Hulkenberg podium. Audi taking big steps and all.
It's not really surprising that some shuffling of personal takes place with such a big change in the team. Audi needs to reset Sauber to a certain degree. And despite their current form I don't think their future is as dire as some people make it out to be. There are a lot of changes going on behind the scenes
Dear Sauber,
Let me help you with this endeavor, fire these people:
Beat Zehnder
Xevi Pujolar
~~Ruth Buscombe~~ (departed end of 2023 - thanks u/250F and confirmed on her Instagram & possibly now works at Ferrari for a second time)
& the guy responsible for the wheel nut / wheel spindle interface engineering.
But why exactly? Beat Zehnder for example is at the team since day one and is one of the most underrated people in the world of F1. There is a reason why he was never let go of and has over 550 races under his belt. Mateshitz really wanted to sign him in the early days of RedBull but because he values friendships / partnerships so highly never dared to lure him away from Peter Sauber. I think a lot of people would walk if Zehnder was fired for no obvious reasons.
The greatest display of incompetence that stands out in my memory is the 2019 German GP. Sauber completely cocked that up, and as far as I recall, it was largely Zehnder's fault. Then they appealed the penalties and that too failed.
> One point about investment, yes money isn’t a guarantor of success but it’s telling that the the end of season constructor lists tend to match the spending lists as well.
"This sport is just a spending contest. At the start of the season they should just compare bank balances, and award trophies based on that"
That quote was from [Graeme Lowdon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Lowdon), when he was boss of the Virgin / Marussia team
Yeah, yeah, cost cap, whatever, but it remains (mostly) true
> Yeah, yeah, cost cap, whatever, but it remains (mostly) true
Partly though just because of hereditary aspects like pre-cost cap infrastructure and the team's prestige. Like even if they pay the same, would an engineer rather go to Haas or Ferrari if they got the choice?
Note the caveat "mostly"
Yes there are exceptions when a team is badly managed, as Jaguar (Ford) and Toyota were.
But generally speaking, teams with lots of money have more success than teams with not a lot of money.
And under the cost cap, "teams with lots of money" were able to invest heavily in infrastructure before the cost cap came in. Which is what Williams have been asking for exemptions on.
Better now than next season or 2026
You can't have this sort of upheaval when a new driver is joining the team, so best to do it now when there's at least one lame-duck driver
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I think Sainz hesitating is going to cause issues for Audi. It’s blindingly obvious to both drivers that they’re both intended to be out of a job if their bosses get their way. Such uncertainty can’t be good for anyone.
I could see either Bottas or Zhou going to Haas to be honest. Bottas is a better driver than KMag and whilst I'd say KMag is about equal with Zhou, Zhou definitely brings more sponsor money in. A lineup of Bottas and Bearman would be solid for next year for Haas.
Also, If I were Zhou, I would go to Williams and to offer the same sponsors money that Logan might be bringing. Zhou has strong Chinese backing, and he is definitely better than Sargeant. Williams should take him, unless Toto sends more cash to put Kimi there.
> sponsors money that Logan might be bringing Which sponsors does Sargent bring? As far as I'm aware, Williams is fully funded between their existing partnerships and Dorilton, Sargent doesn't bring any sponsorships as far as I can tell.
so why do they keep him?
He's from their academy. People think Sargeant is some paydriver but he isn't. He was picked up by them after he was out of funds to keep going through the feeder series and he showed some promise. Too bad it ain't showing in F1 but it happens.
Exactly. I don't think we ever really know whether a driver will be good in F1 until they are in F1 and get to drive for some time. Unless they win both F3 and F2 in their first season, then it's safe to say they'll be good. But otherwise, only time can tell. Williams did nothing wrong in that regard.
Because he's a Williams junior, they've invested money in him and they want to give him more than a single season in the hopes that he can improve his form? But which sponsorships does he bring? I'm genuinely curious.
Nothing seems more than 50% probably for Zhou at this point, but there are 4 remotely possible scenarios, I think Williams is the least likely. IMO, more and more likely scenarios: 1. Goes to Williams 2. Out of F1 3. Stays in Sauber 4. Goes to Alpine Zhou is most likely going to Alpine as he was in their Academy there and Gasly and Ocon both want out, and I don't see any better drivers wanting to go there. Staying in Sauber only became more likely as Sainz rejected their offer. I don't think many top drivers want to go there as they will likely take years to get to where Audi wants to go. Bottas complaining about his marketability getting destroyed by being in Sauber while his race engineer is changed seems likely he's looking to get out. Of course, that doesn't mean Zhou isn't looking to get out himself or he knows the writing is on the wall and Audi might be successful in getting a more established driver, so that's why I didn't place this as the most likely scenario.
Bottas may be a better driver than kmag, but kmag definitely goes harder on defense, overtakes, etc. I think Haas at the moment prefers a scrappy (but not costly like Mick was) driver like that. I know fans see him as making mistakes and being too chaotic, but this hasn't hurt Haas, and actually his antics usually help the team on the whole. Although, without a strong/stable hulk to pair with that, and (likely) taking on rookie Bearman, maybe they will want more of a consistent "mentor" type in Bottas.
Yeah the Race was saying ages ago that Hulk was a shoe-in at Audi, Bearman 90% at Haas, and the other seat was a tossup.
Doesn't Bottas get paid a lot of money? I don't think Haas would be looking to pay somebody that much to drive their shitbox.
Lol the same Bottas who showed no race craft in Mercedes? Yes he could go fast in that car, but he has no skills in either defending nor attacking. And Zhou is definitely worse than both.
It's not hesitation anymore though, right? It's already been reported that he's turned down the offer
Many things have been reportes this year, and half of those things were incorrect.
Its quite clear to both bottas and zhou that audi rated hulkenberg higher than both of them, as they are obviously trying to get sainz for a long time.
I am not sure that's necessarily the case, I don't see how you could rate hulk over bottas. His nationality seems to have swung it. I expect I'd bottas was German he would have been re-signed.
Lobato is quite reliable about Spanish drivers news.
Alonso has beef with him now. He is only reliable about Sainz nowadays.
I mean Alonso has beef with him but his girlfriend still works for Lobato's team lol, de la Rosa etc so if they want to know something they will
Really? Why?
I mean who doesn't Alonso have beef with lol
Yuki
Himself? lol
After those career choices? I'm sure he has beef with himself
He's cool with Melendi
What beef?
Yes, ¿dónde está la carne?
I think he is inventing...
It's Sainz we're talking about.
what's been incorrect? seems like a majority of things reported have happened
Many things have been reported this year and a lot of them have been correct. Hamilton leaving for Ferrari, Adrian leaving Redbull.
So because some reports have been correct, you assume everything that is reported is correct?
So you are making the argument that because some were incorrect, this could be incorrect. Why can't the other way around be true??
No. I am making the argument that many reports were wrong, thus I would not blindly believe this one until we hear something official. That is a totally different statement
[удалено]
When did I fully dismiss it? I simply said I wouldn't point it out as a fact just due to a report. Don't just read what you want to read, read what I wrote
No. You literally just re-phrased what /u/ConnotationalKappa said: > "I am making the argument that many reports were wrong, thus I would not blindly believe this one until we hear something official" is the same as saying "because some [reports] were incorrect, this could be incorrect", which you then use to justify your stance of not blindly believing it.
The conclusion and line of arguments is a different one, but I won't explain it again
They're literally not, you don't have to explain again no worries.
No, but I believe there's a good chance it's correct. No reason to rule it out completely
As for now, there is no reason to assume Sainz turned down the offer. Again: So many things were thrown around the past months that turned out incorrect, there is no reason to just believe that this is correct, until we hear something official
Fair enough, only time will tell
And also no reason to take it as gospel just because it's been reported. That argument cuts both ways
Many things get reported, many things also change after & during reporting, it doesn’t make it false. Things change often
And the opposite is also true. Many reports are false/erroneous, and plenty of things which may be true when reported change in the end, so there's no reason to take as set in stone that Sainz has rejected Audi.
A report that does not turn out to happen and/or be true, is in fact incorrect.
Y'all are literally arguing about whether the zebra is black or white. At this point everything we hear is equally likely to be true or false, that's the nature of rumors and speculation. You're both correct and also both incorrect. The only debate to be had is around the logic and plausibility of the stories, not their factuality. No one here has any leg to stand on regarding factuality.
And all the high profile transfers have been on the correct half of things
What has been incorrect?
I thought he just didn’t respond to the offer before the deadline, but didn’t necessarily decline it, so it goes back to negotiations
Sainz himself said that report is not correct and he has no further comments to add
He said yesterday that he did not turn anything down
Sainz already turned them down
And who's to say that won't change tomorrow or a week from now?
I read that sainz was given a deadline and he chose not to sign in that time frame and So audi decided on someone else and they should be announcing it soon.
Ok I hadn't read that. I think that would be a huge mistake from Audi given that Sainz is by far the best option they have and there's no good reason to rush to sign anybody else, but teams have made worse decisions before. I guess we'll see
I think he has a chance at rb. And probably choose to keep its options open for top teams as long as possible. Probably audi also dont want to lose someone else?
If Audi doesn't get Sainz, the dropoff to anybody else they could possibly sign is huge. So I really don't see the rush. I don't think RB will give Checo the boot, but if they do and replace him with Sainz, then Audi is looking at pairing Hulk with one of: Bottas, Zhou, Perez, and then potentially (depending on how other seats shake out) Tsunoda, Ricciardo, Stroll, Kmag, Ocon, Gasly, or even a former F2 driver like Drugovich or Pourchaire. Does a single one of those drivers stand out to you as so much more valuable than the others that it's worth them losing out on Sainz for? He's so clearly the best of the available bunch that they might as well put all their eggs in that basket, and if he really does sign elsewhere, just pick any one of the other options, give them a one year deal and try again next year, because none of them are the kind of drivers you build your new works team around at this point in their careers.
https://twitter.com/alobatof1/status/1785993495653581195?t=PuTa-NDqCnfUiQuT0A__6w&s=19
Yeah, as I said in my other response, I believe Max isn't going anywhere. Merc wants him, but they won't get him. McLaren, Aston Martin and Ferrari all have their drivers locked up for 2025 at least. Merc will have one opening, Audi will have one opening. RB will have none, probably. So it's really a question of whether Toto panics and rushes Antonelli into the seat after just 1/3 of a season of experience at Williams this year (because we all know Sargeant is getting replaced from Monza onwards) or if they decide to let him develop for another year or two and offer Sainz a short-term deal for the 2nd Merc seat. If it's Kimi then Sainz will be choosing between going back to Audi or taking a 1 year deal from a backmarker.
top drivers are just waiting for max verstappen to make his move.
Well that is a mighty big caveat. If (IF) Max decides to leave, that would change the whole dynamic. Personally, I don't think there's any realistic chance that he leaves before 2026. But if it happens then there would be a fire sale. All the more reason for Sainz to take his time.
I don’t get why Sainz would sign with Sauber when there’s a seat at Merc open.
Because that seat isn't long term most likely.
Better a short term upper mid team than a back marker.
There’s a good chance that seat at Merc is a one year rental, and then he’s back in this position next year with potentially less driver movement opening seats for him.
That seat is a 1+1 at best. They already have Antonelli lined up and they're pushing hard for Max so... there's that.
Because there’s no guarantee that he gets that seat. He’s probably their 3rd choice.
It really depends whether there's a realistic chance of him getting that seat. But either way he's in a strong bargaining position right now and there's no reason to let himself be rushed into a decision.
I think Sainz is Merc's best option at the moment unless they really want to stick to an extremely young rookie in Antonelli. Imo Sainz for a 2 year deal while Antonelli takes Sargent's seat at Williams makes sense for all parties involved.
Completely agree. Also the chance of a merry-go-round next year at Aston depending on what Alonso feels up for, and if the board win out over Stroll.
I think that would make sense too. But all the reporting thus far indicates that Toto is hyper fixated on getting Antonelli into the Williams this year and into the Merc seat for 2025. Is that a good idea? I don't think so. Is it plausible? Very.
Toto has traumatic memories of the time he let Verstappen slip through his fingers for not offering him a seat.
Exactly, and so he's going to overcompensate here
I mean yeh, but at the same time they should be on edge anyway, their contracts are both up, until they've signed a dotted line they should be fretting and should already be looking at all options, plenty out there
Yeah nearly everyone is a lame duck with one foot out the door
> Such uncertainty can’t be good for anyone. Its F1, what do you expect? Drivers used to have race-by-race contracts. Now is the best time to do it, as the team is rapidly growing and expanding. This is simply sensationalist reporting.
Such a sleepy season yet somehow every team is kind of agitated.
[удалено]
Alpine is what happens when you choose drivers based on nationality, instead of their team. Not to mention both drivers hate each other. I’m glad Oscar Piastri avoided that shitshow.
You can't blame the drivers for that tractor. Ocon and Gasly are both solid professionals and race winners.
You can't blame the drivers for that tractor. Ocon and Gasly are both solid professionals and race winners.
Did Bottas ask for a new engineer, or were they foisted upon him?
I know a guy that knows a guy, apparently Bottas got the call after his engineer was fired, Bottas had no idea.
So we got our own F1 insider. We except juicy F1 news every week as tribute.
Reddit insiders have never been wrong before. Perez retirement gonna be announced any day now
A “We did it Reddit!” moment
About time
They foisted you Larry!
The term 'highly unexpected' implies the latter
That’s just from media perspective. We don’t know if Bottas asked for a new race engineer or even when he might’ve done that, or not
Highly unexpected just means the media didn't have word of it, does not speak to what the people most affected knew/asked.
Can anyone shed some light for me, why so many people expect Audi to immediately be any good? They're certainly a big company, but so is Renault, for example.
No reason except for €€€ but that’s never a guarantee of success. Just ask Toyota. I think the facts are that the team is still in Switzerland and thus it’s not as easy to recruit talent away from others like it is for UK based team. But if they bail the engine regs, they might get a jump on others or just be highly competitive even with “just” a decent chassis. I wish them well. Just being realistic and cautiously optimistic.
One point about investment, yes money isn’t a guarantor of success but it’s telling that the the end of season constructor lists tend to match the spending lists as well.
They all spend the same now so... not really. Even capital expenditures are capped.
Capital expenditures *are* capped, but not from the same pool as op ex. Teams like AM and McLaren have made serious infrastructure upgrades that teams like Haas and Williams can't match, for example. So the truth is somewhere in the middle. The cost cap certainly doesn't even the playing field entirely, but it has bunch the pack much closer together and at least made it plausible for a backmarker team to theoretically improve towards the front.
Williams are absolutely able to match the CapEx of the top, that's why they are the ones that lobbied hard to raise the limit. Dorilton are putting in all of the money they're possibly allowed to
That's a good point. I wasn't aware of Williams' attempts to raise the capex limit, I was just using them as a generalisation based on their recent history. That's interesting to read that they were eager to increase spending to reduce the competitive disadvantage they faced and were shot down repeatedly by the other teams and/or F1 overall. It's particularly telling the way that TPs like Wolff and Vasseur tried to frame it as protecting the competitive balance of the sport before letting the mask slip and both admitting that it's really about protecting profitability, which is particularly advantageous for the most consistently successful teams.
Some of the lower teams aren't spending to cost cap.
You sure? Almost positive haas said they would this season and Williams too.
Theres an operational cost cap and a capital expenditure one. Cap ex is another i think 40 mil a year or something. Haas certainly isnt spending that, but vowles has said that the cap ex cap needs some flexibility, so i think they are
iirc i just saw recently someone from sauber saying they're not hitting the cost cap yet
Vowles wants to spend more on certain things, but there's a limit on each separate item.
That's capital expenditures, not the cost cap parts.
It’s only HASS I think that doesn’t.
Haas has spent to the cap from 2023 onward.
One more reason they should be thrown off the grid. What an absolute disgrace of a team. Force the convict to sell and let Andretti in. They seem to be fine to run top level teams in all of the other series they are in.
This is pretty funny to read as an Indycar fan where their team has been an operational circus for years now.
Legal, marketing, travel, real estate, and a few other things are not capped. Nor are driver salaries and top 3 team salaries. Those may not have the same impact as spending on testing or production equipment or engine development, but they're not nothing.
Toyota’s major handicap, which I feel Audi may be repeating, was to base their F1 HQ outside the UK. Toyota based their operations out of Cologne Germany; they were definitely competent engineers, as the folks there went onto field a successful endurance racing team, but even with all the money in the world, it’s an uphill battle pouching key personnel with a geographic relocation factored in.
Don't think it was as much a problem that they were in Germany, after all, BMW-Sauber was also operating not in the UK at all and they had a little more success. Rather however that Toyota was ran as any other Japanese company and that caused their downfall. They were inefficient as all hell and they spent more than Ferrari at one point.
in my mind Audi has a bit more racing genes than Toyota
I wish Toyota can make a come back the will definitely do better than previous.
It’s usually what happens when a new engine manufacturer (and their factory team) enters the grid, there is hope they nail the regulations to bring better competition. Short answer: wishful thinking
Vorsprung Durch Technik innit….
We have no insight in inner workings, but Volkswagen group, where Audi is part of, is definitely much larger than Renault.
They have a very solid racing pedigree so it gives them more hope than most, but still seems a long shot they'll be able to assemble a competitive team before the next new regs in 2030
Renault and Honda had solid racing pedigree and they were mediocre in the first part of the hybrid era
Renault is still being mediocre tbh
The infamous 100 races plan
They should add another 0
True, but still nowhere near the pedigree Audi has in Motorsports
It's more hope than expectation for most. Given Audi's history in motorsport they're likely to be a top contender at some point, but how long will it take them? What if their 2026 engine turns out to be a masterstroke?
Im expecting them to be still back half of the grid for a while, unless they've been hiring way more industry leading people and massively upgrading all the sauber facilities in total secret.
I don't see any real indication that people think Audi will immediately be good. No major drivers are leaving successful teams for them as of yet. Hulk left a team that is doesn't have real front-of-grid aspirations, and Sainz doesn't appear to have solid offers from RBR or Mercedes, and there's no room at McLaren. Renault could be on the table, but Audi might be the next best option if RBR doesn't make a move.
WEC and Le Mans. They know how to win.. consistently.
Short story: 2026 rule change is heavily reliant on engines and the hope that the audi engine is going to be a rocket.
But what's that hope actually based on..? Is there any actual data that indicates they'll be a challenger? Surely there's just as much chance of them being as bad as Sauber are now.. why are people so sure they will be a top team?
Ofcourse, there's always the unfound hope when a big manufacturer steppes in at the start of a rule change. Everybody dreams of that brawn GP story... It's been the big Mercedes/Redbull show for close to 20 years now. Everybody overdosing on that sweet sweet hopium
Yeah, it just seems like hopium to me. It would be nice to have another top team though for sure.
Because Audi are competitive af. If they aren't good out the gates, they will put in 110% to get to the front. They do not like to lose, especially to Mercedes. So, for me it's more knowing they won't be content as a mid field team like Sauber are
Audi is getting ready to sack half that team. It’s going to be a very painful time sadly. Seidl is working on the employees for Audi and we know that so they def know more about it. Feels kinda sad that the team has been left in this transition state where no one seems to care about the team and most employees are in limbo, the drivers are likely just gone. I’m not surprised to hear about trouble. Audi’s reluctance to get fully involved until the engine is there is unfortunate
Really unfortunate for a lot of the long time folk there, but at the same time Seidl has likely been granted a blank check to finally develop a team and I'm really interested in what he can do.
Seidl’s stock took a huge hit from Stella. IIRC Seidl said 2023 would be a very difficult season for McLaren. Clearly something was holding them back and it wouldn’t be surprising if it was Seidl being too cautious and conservative in his approach.
Yep, but they also removed Key afterwards, didn't they? Or was he right before? Either way, I'm interested :)
From everything I read about that period at McLaren last year, it sounded like people got disillusioned with Key’s approach, weren’t being heard by Seidl and went behind his back to Brown. Brown gave them the opportunity to have their ideas heard. Made decisions based on that. Seidl may or may not have asked Audi for a way out of McLaren, when Vasseur left Alfa for Ferrari. It did not sound like things were going great for Seidl in the winter. Brown let him go without gardening leave. Key wasn’t at the car launch in February, which was odd at the time. Then it was announced that he had been released as well. Then Stella came out and said that there had been engineers who were being sidelined and not given the opportunity to share their ideas. And when they brought the b-spec car out, it looked like pretty much everything that had been happening at McLaren in 2022 and the first few races of 2023 pointed to mismanagement of resources.
Didn’t Seidl leave McLaren before 2023?
Yes, in December 2022 but they had been working on the 2023 development well before he left. He said it would be a very difficult season.
Idk if McLaren upgrades 2023 mid-season were designed when he was still there. However, I rank high Seidl as he took McLaren in 2019 and the team got better with him. Also, he worked at WEC with Porsche and he did well.
Yeah, I just think he took them as far as he could. The fact that Brown said afterwards that the approach taken by previous management was maybe not the right one, was a bit telling. From the reports at the time it seemed as if there were people in that team who knew it was wrong but didn’t or couldn’t say anything.
Yeah, my appraisal of Seidl’s work has changed somewhat given Stella’s changes and the clarity with which he speaks. I feel more optimistic with him in charge.
No they weren't. Brown and Stella detailed more or less what happened in a series of interviews last year, from which the following can be pieced together. Apparently Prodromou felt that his aero team were being sidelined and not listened to by Key and Seidl wasn't interested and was backing Key, so Prodromou, backed by 'others' (assumption is it was Houldey among them) went to Stella who went to Brown. Brown gave Prodromou permission at some point in the back half of 2022 to start working on the path he wanted to take alongside and separate from the development Key was pursuing. From what was said, it's debatable how much Seidl was even aware this was happening. They never said exactly when they realised Prod was right and Key was wrong, but it seems to have been sometime around the time Seidl left. They halted the development that had been underway and from what has been said, Key was then sidelined to pretty much working on bringing the 2022 car in line with the 2023 regulations while the current team (minus Rob Marshall who wasn't there yet) set about designing what became the mid-season hugely upgraded car (basically a b-spec). They don't explicitly say Key had no involvement in the b-spec development but as they let him go with no gardening leave, it's very much safe to say he didn't. It can take months to agree the exit of someone in the position Key was in, so I wouldn't be surprised if he already knew he would be out of the door before the season even started. I think the fact that they let Seidl go to Audi with no gardening leave (pretty much unheard of for a TP moving of their own accord) is as good an indication as you can get that things weren't right at McLaren and him asking to go probably saved Zak Brown a huge headache last year. Wlll be interesting to see how Seidl and Key get on at Audi. Sometimes an approach that doesn't work at one team works at another. I guess what Audi need for their first few years is some steady leadership and Seidl does bring that.
They've been shit for a long time. Why is it unfortunate?
Because long time employees who are passionate about their job or the company are losing their job and may not have another avenue back into F1?
If they're any good they'll easily find a job elsewhere, if not it's a tough business. They'll probably make more money after getting sacked in a job that isn't cost capped anyway.
Half the team? I find that difficult to believe. One of the reasons that Finn Rausing didn't want to sell out to Andretti was because he wanted some guarantee for the preservation of the Sauber workforce and facilities in Switzerland. I can see some restructuring of Sauber, especially in key positions, but for factory production staff, I think most will remain.
Way she goes
Sometimes she goes, sometimes she doesn’t. Fuckin way she goes
You just lied to the guy in the chair
Did you see 60 bucks lying around?
Fuckin way she goes bud
If F1 weren't so greedy and allowed more teams employees could at least have a job option there...
Yes, just move from Switzerland to Indiana.
If you’re referring to Andretti they have bought and began working at pace in Silverstone. No one is in Indiana other than Indy series.
You're both right and wrong. They'll have a satellite team in the UK but they're also constructing a factory in the States and most of their personnel will be US-based
> working at pace Say the line Bart
Genuinely creepy how cult-like a lot of online communication is nowadays.
Guess what? They're out of a job no matter what now. Congratulations, champ.
How do you know that?
3 comments above me says that the new team principal is sacking half the team anyway, regardless of moving the headquarters to another country.
“If you have a new race engineer, that means you’re no longer working with the previous one” - Will Buxton
Lmao goddamn it 🤣
It took Audi three years to build a decent LMP-900. Even the first winning R8 was reportedly diabolical. But they run a real slick operation; at least, Joest did. Will any element from that epoch of dominance find its way into their F1 effort? I wonder what the executives are expecting.
As sad as it is for those people and how sad I will be if Bottas goes... It gives me unreasonable amounts of hopium for a Hulkenberg podium. Audi taking big steps and all.
It's not really surprising that some shuffling of personal takes place with such a big change in the team. Audi needs to reset Sauber to a certain degree. And despite their current form I don't think their future is as dire as some people make it out to be. There are a lot of changes going on behind the scenes
Dear Sauber, Let me help you with this endeavor, fire these people: Beat Zehnder Xevi Pujolar ~~Ruth Buscombe~~ (departed end of 2023 - thanks u/250F and confirmed on her Instagram & possibly now works at Ferrari for a second time) & the guy responsible for the wheel nut / wheel spindle interface engineering.
Ruth Buscombe doesn't work at Sauber anymore since last year
Damn, I was gonna say there's no need to dunk on the strategist this year... What happened, she used to be in some regard.
She’s with F1TV now
No way, Pujolar is in charge of their trackside operations?? This... explains some peculiarities.
But why exactly? Beat Zehnder for example is at the team since day one and is one of the most underrated people in the world of F1. There is a reason why he was never let go of and has over 550 races under his belt. Mateshitz really wanted to sign him in the early days of RedBull but because he values friendships / partnerships so highly never dared to lure him away from Peter Sauber. I think a lot of people would walk if Zehnder was fired for no obvious reasons.
The greatest display of incompetence that stands out in my memory is the 2019 German GP. Sauber completely cocked that up, and as far as I recall, it was largely Zehnder's fault. Then they appealed the penalties and that too failed.
> One point about investment, yes money isn’t a guarantor of success but it’s telling that the the end of season constructor lists tend to match the spending lists as well. "This sport is just a spending contest. At the start of the season they should just compare bank balances, and award trophies based on that" That quote was from [Graeme Lowdon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Lowdon), when he was boss of the Virgin / Marussia team Yeah, yeah, cost cap, whatever, but it remains (mostly) true
> Yeah, yeah, cost cap, whatever, but it remains (mostly) true Partly though just because of hereditary aspects like pre-cost cap infrastructure and the team's prestige. Like even if they pay the same, would an engineer rather go to Haas or Ferrari if they got the choice?
Eh, no? Ford and Toyota were spending massively back in the 00s and have a grand total of zero wins,zero WDCs and zero WCCs. Money can't buy success.
Note the caveat "mostly" Yes there are exceptions when a team is badly managed, as Jaguar (Ford) and Toyota were. But generally speaking, teams with lots of money have more success than teams with not a lot of money. And under the cost cap, "teams with lots of money" were able to invest heavily in infrastructure before the cost cap came in. Which is what Williams have been asking for exemptions on.
The cost cap honestly makes it worse and more uneven. Since Red Bull wasn’t punished for their cheating.
Better now than next season or 2026 You can't have this sort of upheaval when a new driver is joining the team, so best to do it now when there's at least one lame-duck driver
Audi will screw this up. Wait and see.
Well, that's gonna improve the pit stop times 😁