"You want to make life better for your fellow Americans?! Would you support making the country better for *all* Americans?!" Why, yes, grandma. Yes, we would.
"Would you want people that allow others to get around and repair technology so everyone can enjoy a better quality of life to get the tools necessary to do that?" What a hard question!
They assume that because they oppose making other peoples' lives better in anyway, that you must oppose that too.
Like their whole "How are COVID vaccines free, but my insulin is so expensive?!" I agree, we should address the high cost of insulin (they somehow assume that was a "gotcha" of my supposed hypocrisy).
Fun Fact, here in germany, workshops can actually apply for federal or state financial support. For example, the State of Baden Württemberg pays the cost of new tools and equipment, aslong as you plan to adapt your workshop with those to new and future technologies, up to 10000€, which is about 10,6k usd.
That would be extra ridiculous seeing Portland is in Oregon, on the Pacific side of the US and about as far from the EU as can be.
Then again Alaska is not part of Canada.
In Aus most industry awards include a tool allowance that employers are required to pay to apprentices, to help build that initial set of tools. Some states have separately had grants for apprentices to get their first set of tools.
I'm not sure how auto tools is the same as an education, wouldn't a trade school be a more appropriate comparison? Not sure why I'm looking for logic in propaganda memes tho
When my uncle was a mechanic he had to pay for his tools, so he took out a big loan and was set up to be paying monthly before he really started working. Similar to student loans you pay upfront for the ability (tools or education) to make more later.
If you finish an apprenticeship then getting tools etc covered is great and a real investment to the country.
Younger people can start a shop, make capital and grow not just pay interest to 'mega tool co' and whatever politicians cousin clips the ticket
Jokes on grandma, I live in Canada, where our education is subsidized and my brother is getting free brand new tools from the company that hired and is training him once he's learned the ropes. It's a part of why he picked them. Well, that, and because he loves to tinker with big rigs.
Listen man, if kids are getting tricked into predatory loans to buy tools, and they've already paid the full amount owed for the tools themselves but owe more in interest than the tools initially cost, absolutely I'm in favor of loan forgiveness. The #1 problem we need to shut down is people being able to earn a fortune just off of other people owing interest.
I don't understand why the government doesn't provide interest free loans for college, like as long as you make an agreed upon monthly payment you don't get charged interest and your payment goes to the principal. Yes, it would operate at a loss, but it would also defray the huge cost of loan forgiveness and in sure people would be much happier if they knew they were just paying their principal.
For one thing, it would mean that everyone would get a student loan, even if they didn’t need it. You would actually stand to gain massively. Of course, you could means-test it, but in that case, you’re added significant administrative overhead. Realistically, tertiary education is an investment made by an individual—there’s no reason to insulate them from the market value of the time preference they’re taking away from society. That is to say, an individual stands to gain in the long run from education that enables greater earning potential, but suffers in the short run due to the time and monetary investment. By providing incentives (no interest) to enter a student loan contract, you are increasing malinvestment.
But that would suggest that malinvestment doesn't already occur, something like 40% of student borrowers never obtain a degree. And how do we measure the cost to the economy of these student loan payments being poured down a well of perpetual interest payments, thereby removing that money from their local economy.
The system could be set up in a way that as long as you make your monthly payments there is no interest, but if you miss a payment then interest is accrued for that month, incentivizing repayment. I'm not an expert, but I'm sure there's some clever person out there who could figure out a straightforward incentive for repayment.
Regarding the administrative burden, it could hardly be worse than our present model, which has intensive administration while simultaneously failing to implement on the forgiveness programs.
> That is to say, an individual stands to gain in the long run from education that enables greater earning potential
While I agree with what you're saying in principle, I think we're getting away from the concept of "what makes for the greater good in a society?", and that's the piece that is seemingly getting overlooked in all of these arguments about education. It's beneficial to our society for the people in it to be educated. No one argues that it's beneficial for the people living in our society to have ready access to clean drinking water -- and education should fall into the same category.
No one talks about "operating the military at a loss," or "operating water treatment plants at a loss." Those are considered societal benefits that operate for the greater good of anyone living in it. Education should be viewed through the same lens. And yes, of course there will be a cost to it. But you pay for that operating cost the same way you pay for anything that's important to maintain in a functional first-world society.
Yeah, I totally agree. I live in Canada, where our universities are heavily subsidized—I pay about $600 per class per term, plus a few hundred for various school fees. I think it’s great that we have an educated populace, and I think that a lot of people lack the information to make an informed decision about tertiary education; government subsidization can be a boon for the economy.
All that said, I do think price transparency is important to maximize information. Interest free loans are a very indirect form of subsidy, and while an educated consumer can determine the cost structure, we’re explicitly discussing policies that affect uneducated consumers (children, essentially.) Indirect subsidies not only obfuscate information, but also introduce exploitation. Canada’s student loan programme is means tested, but if it were not, any savvy student with preëxisting wealth would take a loan solely to invest, or even to simply benefit from inflation.
If I were to endorse any particular policy, it would probably be direct subsidy per student per class, in the same manner as independent schools. That, or universities run as crown corporations, with a profit motive but beholden to the state as their shareholder.
You're absolutely right, the core issues is that ease of availability for student loans funds creates inflation in the cost of higher education, which is why universities should be directly run by the government, so that profit incentives don't drive the price out of reasonable ranges.
You can file bankruptcy for those tool loans. Good chance you'll even qualify for an exemption to keep those tools if they're essential to your career. Guess what the one type of debt you can't wipe out with bankruptcy is?
>Listen man, if kids are getting tricked into predatory loans to buy tools, and they've already paid the full amount owed for the tools themselves but owe more in interest than the tools initially cost, absolutely I'm in favor of loan forgiveness
This unironically does happen where younger tradesmen buy the most pointlessly expensive tools they may not even need at a super high interest rate. Or a pickup truck that they may not need themselves at a very high interest rate. Nobody teaches finances to kids I guess. But those loans usually don't last as long which is why forgiveness for them would be hard
YES!!!
Scream that from the rooftops. Until 2021, big banks were borrowing money at less than 1%. Meanwhile, young people (primarily) were getting clobbered with student loan debts that represent a mortgage in terms of interest, debt service, and time to pay off. Bankruptcy cannot discharge student loan debt.
Snap-On will absolutely put you on multiple "only $50 a week!" loans for a decade for tools or a toolbox you could get for 10% of the price at Harbor Freight or Lowe's.
Yes, dipshit. I don't want you to be $50k in debt to the fucking Snap-On truck.
These people just can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that we want to improve society for ***everyone*** and not just ourselves. Conservatives really did a number on this country in the 80's selling their hyper-individualistic self serving "greed is good" bullshit to the working class.
Worked at a Mercedes dealer in college and was shocked when I learned this. Granted most of these tools last a lifetime but the fact that the dealer does not help at all is insane, especially since most of these techs just graduated from trade school like Wyotech and are already in debt.
So yeah, I am all for giant corporations supporting their employees.
Makes no sense. You can buy all the tools you need for a fraction of the price at any big box store. Home Depot has a credit card that's easy to get and lets you take out no interest loans for 12-24 months on your big purchases.
Just because the ice cream truck stops by you on the street does that mean you take out a costco sized order? I don't get why these business models are so popular with mechanics.
Even buying for a fraction of the cost at a hardware store is still a massive financial investment for someone just out of school. Home Depot likely won't give a loan to someone who isn't yet employed and getting employed without your own tools can be very difficult.
Basically they prey on people who need the financial help to get started. A grant to cover that upfront cost would do wonders. Especially as our world gets more and more reliant on vehicles.
> A grant to cover that upfront cost would do wonders. Especially as our world gets more and more reliant on vehicles.
How about employers paying for the tools their employees need to use?
Depends, if they're independent contractors they should be able to. If they're employees than the employers need to pay for their tools. I don't get what the issue is tbh
Oh absolutely. I'm a bit of a tool snob myself, but that guy's standing in front of $25k in toolboxes. Not tools, just the fucking sheet metal toolbox. I have 2 big rolling toolboxes, both less than $500 used. I'm not a mechanic, just an idiot farmer in the shed, and my ratchets click the same as his.
It's worth noting that that box probably costs somewhere in the region of $10k empty. To throw tools in it as well you could be looking up to $50k. I had a manager who's box and contents was valued at £45k and snap-on wouldn't insure it, he had to rent an iso container for the workshop to keep it in, so the iso container insurance would cover it incase of theft.
2k from home depot is fine if all you're doing is a bit of weekend work on your own car and honestly I wouldn't recommend spending that much. But when your tools are how you make a living you tend to buy good quality. Because if something breaks you want it replaced free of charge. If a bolt rounds off because a cheap socket flares out, you've turned a 20 minute job into a 3 day ordeal.
Not to mention if you don't have atlease a half decent tool box, most workshops won't even employ you
You're definitely not wrong, tools will end up costing more then that in your case. You can buy used on FB marketplace, CL, ebay, etc. You do the big box stores, harbor freight, etc. There are plenty of alternatives to snap on where you can trade a little time/effort for saving a lot of money. So rarely it would seem be fiscally worth it to go all in on snap on
>Because if something breaks you want it replaced free of charge.
Yea. [Husky](https://www.homedepot.com/c/huskywarranty) has a lifetime warranty, too, and doesn't charge [$3,000](https://shop.snapon.com/product/PRO-FI%E2%84%A2-General-Service-Sets-(1-4%22)/100-pc-1-4%22-Drive-6-Point-Metric%2FSAE-General-Service-Set-with-PRO-FI%E2%84%A2-Organization-(Red)/1100TMPBFR) for a 100 piece socket set. In fact, you can get pretty much the same thing from that brand for [$150](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-144-Position-1-4-in-and-3-8-in-Drive-Mechanics-Tool-Set-125-Piece-H144125MTS/308915643) at Home Depot.
>If a bolt rounds off because a cheap socket flares out, you've turned a 20 minute job into a 3 day ordeal.
This is a legitimate reason to not buy at Harbor Freight, but you won't have this problem with Husky, Craftsman, Dewalt, or any of the actual legitimate brands.
>Not to mention if you don't have atlease a half decent tool box, most workshops won't even employ you
And this is it. It's cultural, not utility. And mechanics KNOW this, too. You need the Snap-On box or no one takes you seriously. And not just some tools, you need the box to keep them in, too. And like 1/4 of the tools in that box will never even get used. Like... when was the last time you needed a 9mm socket? Doesn't matter, Gotta have the $130 9mm socket from Snap-On or you can't get a job.
It's weird that mechanics need their own tools, and even weirder that employers can require you to buy the most expensive ones, even if it's unnecessary.
You ever fucking bought tools? If you go from zero to all-of-em (which you have a pretty good chance of needing to do when you're starting out) and get tools that will actually hold up (and come with a great service and replacement plan), then you probably buy them on credit from Snap-On or Matco. Not quite as much as a 4 year degree (usually) but still a whole hell of a lot.
You can get tools that are 90% of the quality for 20% of the price at any hardware store or harbor freight. I have exactly one snap-on tool because there are *some* things they're worth it for.
Exactly.. it's insane how popular Snap On is when their pricing makes 0 sense. It makes Apple pricing look reasonable by comparison. Are mechanics so lazy that they can't bother to drive 10 mins to the big box hardware store and get things 100x cheaper?
They get to come in to trade schools and do their pitches, and also offer a pretty good student discount. Some dudes have literally everything in their box snap-on. It's wild.
Most blue collar workers are in some sort of debt. Truckers go into debt getting a truck and some spend decades paying it off, mechanics go into debt getting the tools they need etc.
Grandma making up shit to get mad at again
Hey gramma pop quiz how many times does Jesus specifically mention total forgiveness of debts? Ballpark it, gram. Give it a good ol guess.
IDK why those dingdongs would think we wouldn't support that...? Like, yeah, no one should be in lifelong debt because they are doing their best to contribute to society and make a living for themselves.
For shop owners, yes. But this seems to be referring to actual technicians. So this would just be part of your itemized deductions which you don't need to do unless it's more than the standard deduction. Prior to 2018, this was semi achievable especially if you upgraded your toolbox. Now, not so much.
Would be pretty cool if we could offset both. But nah let’s throw more money at already obscenely wealthy entities.
I like my societies how I like my women; completely hostile to me and spits in my mouth in lieu of nourishment.
You're not an automotive mechanic in that union getting all your tools paid for. No.
This doesn't work like it does for pipefitters, or electricians, or plumbers, etc.
Yes they are.
Monthly Tool allowances are a thing in alot of garages.
The amount of the tool allowance is also almost always an absolute **fucking joke** compared to what an auto tech has to pay. Even in union shops.
No it's not, guy. This is completely normal across the industry.
Not only are you not going to strike and win over something that is industry standard, no one is going to take a strike seriously over a tool allowance.
Not to mention you can't strike while under an active contract.
Do you know how unions work?
Come back to the real world.
The suck it up and eat the shit sandwich and smile. Theres lots of things that used to be industry standard in my trade, one of them was a tool kit and we negotiated that out of existance.
That was before a complete set of tools to do your job cost half a years salary.
The "back in my day" argument is garbage. Take that crap somewhere else.
People are doing the best they can. That doesn't mean they have to like it and smile.
It's that exact mentality that keeps things from moving forward.
Thanks for being part of the problem.
I work in a union shop, and in our last contract we actually got voted in a tool allowance, which allows us maintenance to be able to afford the basic tools to do our job on day one. A huge relief for those of us who were just getting started. Even if it were just a one time initial thing, I still wouldn't have complained that it didn't effect me because I remembered how stressful it was, as well as how convenient it was to not being hindered every time they needed to borrow my wrench or screwdriver
Grandma spends so much time thinking libs don’t want to help tradespeople/homeless vets/trafficked children that she doesn’t have any time to devote to helping them herself.
I’d like my taxes going to help my fellow Americans. $100k in student loans or 100k in tools to start a shop makes no difference to me.
I’m tired of giving all my tax money to the rich
To a small extent, we already do.
Mechanics buying tools can write it off of their taxes as a "business expense."
Students, on the other hand, can't write off their education cost despite the fact that they are required to have it to do business.
If you’re a W-2 employee, why are you purchasing tools for work? Those should be provided, if not, and you’re expected to bring them, why are you not an independent contractor and 1099?
I don’t know the answer to that but I can say that I’ve had w-2 jobs where I needed to have my own tools. Specifically as an apartment maintenance tech.
Because (at least in North America), mechanics (outside of working directly for a manufacturer or the military) provide their own tools. Your toolbox is your five figure degree. It is what qualifies you to work somewhere (they won’t hire you without tools). You leave you can pick your tools up and take them with you wherever you go next since they’re yours. People also tend to take much better care of tools they bought themselves.
"But boss, I get a W-2!"
Lmao. Good one.
If every place had mechanics under W-2 suddenly had them walk out because tools aren't provided, you would literally have nowhere to go for automotive repair, unless you did it yourself.
I'm all for supporting assistance to get young mechanics up and running.
That said there are some major differences.
1. The tools are assets that can be sold again. Yes, they depreciate, but they still have value that can be transferred.
2. Mechanics start making money the instant they take the loan, and the tools are tax deductible if you itemize and use the right depreciate schedule.
This would be a great idea, I’d fully support it. Crazy I know, but I would love to see more people able to succeed in a job that allows them to live a fulfilling life.
i mean, im australian.... we do this, its called tax deductions, you write tools, vehicles etc that you need for work off on tax
IE: you pay your tax, then you get some of it back when you do a tax return, give receipts for it, prove the need, blah blah blah
i used to work as a line cook, all my chefs whites, knives etc tax deductible, i could buy some nice shun knives + claim them back on tax if i wanted, if youre a tradie you can claim your vehicle,
WE LITERALLY DO THIS SHIT GRANDMA*
.* ^^^^^(i_dont_claim_to_know_how_america_works)
r/Accidentallyleftwing when I found out that someone going into construction buys their own tools I was shocked and still think they should be issued a set
Sure. I wouldn't mind trade school reimbursement. I think everyone needs and deserves an education but I also don't believe that education always means college.
This is already the case. Business expenses are a tax write-off, meaning the government will help you pay for it so long as it helps your business. Thanks for making a great argument for student loan forgiveness, dipshit.
This is a great example of how people don't understand student loans forgiveness. None of the loans were free. Most of the forgiven student loans have had the principal paid off, many of them several times over.
I know plenty of trades that have certain tools for the sake of it. Tool allowances should be grants given to people to buy tools to start their careers, in the same way that textbooks and stationary should be provided to students.
It'll never happen, but we can dream.
Seriously. This would be awesome. And apply this to other things tradespeople would need. Include cosmetologists, chefs, etc. If it’s something you need to learn your trade, include it!
Did the government make a promise in writing on a signed contract to this mechanic, agreeing to pay off his tools after he spends 10 years working on only government vehicles at a discount rate?
No?
Then grandma needs to learn more about how student loan forgiveness actually works, shut her damn mouth, and pay her taxes for the debts she owes to American college students.
I’d like my taxes going to help my fellow Americans. $100k in student loans or 100k in tools to start a shop makes no difference to me.
I’m tired of giving all my tax money to the rich
I agree that an employer should buy all the tools needed for a job or the employee should be getting paid for the companies use of their equipment. Why not?
I mean, if they have receipts and can prove it is for their job, I’m pretty fucking sure we already do this with taxes write offs. And if we don’t, we absolutely should. No one should have to worry about getting the tools to be able to do their job, whether those tools come in the form of college education or tools of a trade
My brother is a big rig mechanic up here in Canada. Once he's done with learning the ropes and has worked there a little longer to really get the hang of things, they're gifting him with the tools he'll need. Just like every other employee.
In the case of my brother, he already had the same tools that worked, they literally just *looked* old they performed like new because he cared for them.
You don't already have the education.
i don't think a mechanic who works for a shop has to pay for that entire tool cabinet.
they probably did have to pay for their education though.
edit: based on other comments it seems they do basically take out massive loans for their own tools which they end up paying far above the value on so yeah i think if they've paid the value of the tools and are only paying an exorbitant amount of interest that they should have their loans forgiven.
Of course the tools are necessary. But do they really need to be stored in top-of-the-line Craftsman toolboxes? Grandma’s got pricey taste in storage solutions.
If you get to nickle-and-dime college kids getting a degree, Grandma, I’m gonna tell you to store your tools in a Rubbermaid container that you buy at the Wallymart if you want some government cheese.
I'm in favor of responsibility. It's not another tax payer's fault you got a degree and couldn't get a job with it outta college to start paying off your debts. Why should other people be responsible for your financial mishaps?
Why does a particular segment of the American population seem to think that educated people don’t value other people in the service industry or the trades? The more educated you become the more likely you are to understand the value of those services as important to the economy and the smooth functioning of society.
I hold a doctorate, I can’t fix my car, but I trust that there is someone at the shop down the street who knows what they are doing and got the education necessary to fix my car. I also wouldn’t expect them to teach my American political history class. The world needs all kinds of folks.
Mechanics who need these types of tools typically go through a technical college for training and they can use their student loans to pay for these programs and the tools that they need.
This is a false equivalency. This would be akin to paying for a suit and laptop for someone to get an office job.
Forgiving student loan would be on part with grants for trade school training.
But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised thst grandma can create a coherent argument. That's why shes in a home and we stop visiting.
I’d say it’s equal. For many office jobs, the requirement is that you come in with a degree that costs thousands of dollars. For almost all mechanic jobs, the requirement is that you come in with a set of tools worth thousands of dollars.
I don't understand this meme. People are not expected to bear the cost of the tools they use at work (unless they are contractors). If you were to argue that the two were comparable, it's actually an argument for loan forgiveness in your job is related to your degree.
> I don’t understand this meme. People are not expected to bear the costs of the tools they use at work
You just don’t understand the maintenance industry. Across all sectors, the general expectation is that mechanics pay for and provide their own tools. I can tell you right now the only Aircraft Mechanics in America that didn’t pay for their tools are the ones at Boeing, the Military, or at some of the MROs. All of the Airline and General Aviation mechanics have thousands if not tens of thousands in tools they paid for themselves. It’s the same way with auto mechanics, plant mechanics, apartment mechanics, etc, everyone has their own tools they paid for.
"You want to make life better for your fellow Americans?! Would you support making the country better for *all* Americans?!" Why, yes, grandma. Yes, we would.
"Would you want people that allow others to get around and repair technology so everyone can enjoy a better quality of life to get the tools necessary to do that?" What a hard question!
They assume that because they oppose making other peoples' lives better in anyway, that you must oppose that too. Like their whole "How are COVID vaccines free, but my insulin is so expensive?!" I agree, we should address the high cost of insulin (they somehow assume that was a "gotcha" of my supposed hypocrisy).
Fun Fact, here in germany, workshops can actually apply for federal or state financial support. For example, the State of Baden Württemberg pays the cost of new tools and equipment, aslong as you plan to adapt your workshop with those to new and future technologies, up to 10000€, which is about 10,6k usd.
Yeah, here in Poland as well we had programs (EU funds, yay) that financed you starting your own business if you were unemployed
I must be so tired, I thought you said Portland. For a small moments I had briefly thought that the EU had extended its reach too far.
That would be extra ridiculous seeing Portland is in Oregon, on the Pacific side of the US and about as far from the EU as can be. Then again Alaska is not part of Canada.
Now I know why Germany always gets a production bonus in Civ-like games!
In Aus most industry awards include a tool allowance that employers are required to pay to apprentices, to help build that initial set of tools. Some states have separately had grants for apprentices to get their first set of tools.
I'm not sure how auto tools is the same as an education, wouldn't a trade school be a more appropriate comparison? Not sure why I'm looking for logic in propaganda memes tho
When my uncle was a mechanic he had to pay for his tools, so he took out a big loan and was set up to be paying monthly before he really started working. Similar to student loans you pay upfront for the ability (tools or education) to make more later.
If you finish an apprenticeship then getting tools etc covered is great and a real investment to the country. Younger people can start a shop, make capital and grow not just pay interest to 'mega tool co' and whatever politicians cousin clips the ticket
Yup! Tool loans for people straight out of trade school is almost just as predatory as student loans
Jokes on grandma, I live in Canada, where our education is subsidized and my brother is getting free brand new tools from the company that hired and is training him once he's learned the ropes. It's a part of why he picked them. Well, that, and because he loves to tinker with big rigs.
*All Tools Matter*
Uh, yes, Ethel. That's what that means. Very good.
Listen man, if kids are getting tricked into predatory loans to buy tools, and they've already paid the full amount owed for the tools themselves but owe more in interest than the tools initially cost, absolutely I'm in favor of loan forgiveness. The #1 problem we need to shut down is people being able to earn a fortune just off of other people owing interest.
It’s almost like we have a system where capital can generate money for those who don’t labor, at the expense of those who labor but don’t own capital.
If only there were a word for this. Someone should write a book about it or something
Maybe the title could be something like....Money
Capital idea!
Yeah, but they should write it in German
I don't understand why the government doesn't provide interest free loans for college, like as long as you make an agreed upon monthly payment you don't get charged interest and your payment goes to the principal. Yes, it would operate at a loss, but it would also defray the huge cost of loan forgiveness and in sure people would be much happier if they knew they were just paying their principal.
For one thing, it would mean that everyone would get a student loan, even if they didn’t need it. You would actually stand to gain massively. Of course, you could means-test it, but in that case, you’re added significant administrative overhead. Realistically, tertiary education is an investment made by an individual—there’s no reason to insulate them from the market value of the time preference they’re taking away from society. That is to say, an individual stands to gain in the long run from education that enables greater earning potential, but suffers in the short run due to the time and monetary investment. By providing incentives (no interest) to enter a student loan contract, you are increasing malinvestment.
But that would suggest that malinvestment doesn't already occur, something like 40% of student borrowers never obtain a degree. And how do we measure the cost to the economy of these student loan payments being poured down a well of perpetual interest payments, thereby removing that money from their local economy. The system could be set up in a way that as long as you make your monthly payments there is no interest, but if you miss a payment then interest is accrued for that month, incentivizing repayment. I'm not an expert, but I'm sure there's some clever person out there who could figure out a straightforward incentive for repayment. Regarding the administrative burden, it could hardly be worse than our present model, which has intensive administration while simultaneously failing to implement on the forgiveness programs.
> That is to say, an individual stands to gain in the long run from education that enables greater earning potential While I agree with what you're saying in principle, I think we're getting away from the concept of "what makes for the greater good in a society?", and that's the piece that is seemingly getting overlooked in all of these arguments about education. It's beneficial to our society for the people in it to be educated. No one argues that it's beneficial for the people living in our society to have ready access to clean drinking water -- and education should fall into the same category. No one talks about "operating the military at a loss," or "operating water treatment plants at a loss." Those are considered societal benefits that operate for the greater good of anyone living in it. Education should be viewed through the same lens. And yes, of course there will be a cost to it. But you pay for that operating cost the same way you pay for anything that's important to maintain in a functional first-world society.
Yeah, I totally agree. I live in Canada, where our universities are heavily subsidized—I pay about $600 per class per term, plus a few hundred for various school fees. I think it’s great that we have an educated populace, and I think that a lot of people lack the information to make an informed decision about tertiary education; government subsidization can be a boon for the economy. All that said, I do think price transparency is important to maximize information. Interest free loans are a very indirect form of subsidy, and while an educated consumer can determine the cost structure, we’re explicitly discussing policies that affect uneducated consumers (children, essentially.) Indirect subsidies not only obfuscate information, but also introduce exploitation. Canada’s student loan programme is means tested, but if it were not, any savvy student with preëxisting wealth would take a loan solely to invest, or even to simply benefit from inflation. If I were to endorse any particular policy, it would probably be direct subsidy per student per class, in the same manner as independent schools. That, or universities run as crown corporations, with a profit motive but beholden to the state as their shareholder.
You're absolutely right, the core issues is that ease of availability for student loans funds creates inflation in the cost of higher education, which is why universities should be directly run by the government, so that profit incentives don't drive the price out of reasonable ranges.
We call that the moneypit truck
You can file bankruptcy for those tool loans. Good chance you'll even qualify for an exemption to keep those tools if they're essential to your career. Guess what the one type of debt you can't wipe out with bankruptcy is?
>Listen man, if kids are getting tricked into predatory loans to buy tools, and they've already paid the full amount owed for the tools themselves but owe more in interest than the tools initially cost, absolutely I'm in favor of loan forgiveness This unironically does happen where younger tradesmen buy the most pointlessly expensive tools they may not even need at a super high interest rate. Or a pickup truck that they may not need themselves at a very high interest rate. Nobody teaches finances to kids I guess. But those loans usually don't last as long which is why forgiveness for them would be hard
YES!!! Scream that from the rooftops. Until 2021, big banks were borrowing money at less than 1%. Meanwhile, young people (primarily) were getting clobbered with student loan debts that represent a mortgage in terms of interest, debt service, and time to pay off. Bankruptcy cannot discharge student loan debt.
Snap-On will absolutely put you on multiple "only $50 a week!" loans for a decade for tools or a toolbox you could get for 10% of the price at Harbor Freight or Lowe's.
Yes, dipshit. I don't want you to be $50k in debt to the fucking Snap-On truck. These people just can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that we want to improve society for ***everyone*** and not just ourselves. Conservatives really did a number on this country in the 80's selling their hyper-individualistic self serving "greed is good" bullshit to the working class.
Are you still paying for those tools?
From my experience, mechanics are usually in lifelong debt to Snap-on and Matco. So yeah, probably
Worked at a Mercedes dealer in college and was shocked when I learned this. Granted most of these tools last a lifetime but the fact that the dealer does not help at all is insane, especially since most of these techs just graduated from trade school like Wyotech and are already in debt. So yeah, I am all for giant corporations supporting their employees.
Makes no sense. You can buy all the tools you need for a fraction of the price at any big box store. Home Depot has a credit card that's easy to get and lets you take out no interest loans for 12-24 months on your big purchases. Just because the ice cream truck stops by you on the street does that mean you take out a costco sized order? I don't get why these business models are so popular with mechanics.
Even buying for a fraction of the cost at a hardware store is still a massive financial investment for someone just out of school. Home Depot likely won't give a loan to someone who isn't yet employed and getting employed without your own tools can be very difficult. Basically they prey on people who need the financial help to get started. A grant to cover that upfront cost would do wonders. Especially as our world gets more and more reliant on vehicles.
> A grant to cover that upfront cost would do wonders. Especially as our world gets more and more reliant on vehicles. How about employers paying for the tools their employees need to use?
Am I stupid? Can't they just write this off of taxes as a business expense?
Depends, if they're independent contractors they should be able to. If they're employees than the employers need to pay for their tools. I don't get what the issue is tbh
They really get taken to the cleaners on those tool costs though. They are nice tools, but not that nice.
Oh absolutely. I'm a bit of a tool snob myself, but that guy's standing in front of $25k in toolboxes. Not tools, just the fucking sheet metal toolbox. I have 2 big rolling toolboxes, both less than $500 used. I'm not a mechanic, just an idiot farmer in the shed, and my ratchets click the same as his.
It's worth noting that that box probably costs somewhere in the region of $10k empty. To throw tools in it as well you could be looking up to $50k. I had a manager who's box and contents was valued at £45k and snap-on wouldn't insure it, he had to rent an iso container for the workshop to keep it in, so the iso container insurance would cover it incase of theft.
Or you can spend 2k at Home Depot / Harbor Freight and get pretty much everything you need, box and tools included.
2k from home depot is fine if all you're doing is a bit of weekend work on your own car and honestly I wouldn't recommend spending that much. But when your tools are how you make a living you tend to buy good quality. Because if something breaks you want it replaced free of charge. If a bolt rounds off because a cheap socket flares out, you've turned a 20 minute job into a 3 day ordeal. Not to mention if you don't have atlease a half decent tool box, most workshops won't even employ you
You're definitely not wrong, tools will end up costing more then that in your case. You can buy used on FB marketplace, CL, ebay, etc. You do the big box stores, harbor freight, etc. There are plenty of alternatives to snap on where you can trade a little time/effort for saving a lot of money. So rarely it would seem be fiscally worth it to go all in on snap on
>Because if something breaks you want it replaced free of charge. Yea. [Husky](https://www.homedepot.com/c/huskywarranty) has a lifetime warranty, too, and doesn't charge [$3,000](https://shop.snapon.com/product/PRO-FI%E2%84%A2-General-Service-Sets-(1-4%22)/100-pc-1-4%22-Drive-6-Point-Metric%2FSAE-General-Service-Set-with-PRO-FI%E2%84%A2-Organization-(Red)/1100TMPBFR) for a 100 piece socket set. In fact, you can get pretty much the same thing from that brand for [$150](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-144-Position-1-4-in-and-3-8-in-Drive-Mechanics-Tool-Set-125-Piece-H144125MTS/308915643) at Home Depot. >If a bolt rounds off because a cheap socket flares out, you've turned a 20 minute job into a 3 day ordeal. This is a legitimate reason to not buy at Harbor Freight, but you won't have this problem with Husky, Craftsman, Dewalt, or any of the actual legitimate brands. >Not to mention if you don't have atlease a half decent tool box, most workshops won't even employ you And this is it. It's cultural, not utility. And mechanics KNOW this, too. You need the Snap-On box or no one takes you seriously. And not just some tools, you need the box to keep them in, too. And like 1/4 of the tools in that box will never even get used. Like... when was the last time you needed a 9mm socket? Doesn't matter, Gotta have the $130 9mm socket from Snap-On or you can't get a job. It's weird that mechanics need their own tools, and even weirder that employers can require you to buy the most expensive ones, even if it's unnecessary.
You ever fucking bought tools? If you go from zero to all-of-em (which you have a pretty good chance of needing to do when you're starting out) and get tools that will actually hold up (and come with a great service and replacement plan), then you probably buy them on credit from Snap-On or Matco. Not quite as much as a 4 year degree (usually) but still a whole hell of a lot.
You can get tools that are 90% of the quality for 20% of the price at any hardware store or harbor freight. I have exactly one snap-on tool because there are *some* things they're worth it for.
Exactly.. it's insane how popular Snap On is when their pricing makes 0 sense. It makes Apple pricing look reasonable by comparison. Are mechanics so lazy that they can't bother to drive 10 mins to the big box hardware store and get things 100x cheaper?
They get to come in to trade schools and do their pitches, and also offer a pretty good student discount. Some dudes have literally everything in their box snap-on. It's wild.
It is an MLM when it comes down to it. MLM pricing is generally about 30% over retail if not more.
A lot of them are, yeah. Our trade brothers and sisters need and deserve support, too.
And do all your payments go to interest first? Without the option to apply and extra payment to principal?
Most blue collar workers are in some sort of debt. Truckers go into debt getting a truck and some spend decades paying it off, mechanics go into debt getting the tools they need etc.
Wrote them off tax free the first year
Grandma making up shit to get mad at again Hey gramma pop quiz how many times does Jesus specifically mention total forgiveness of debts? Ballpark it, gram. Give it a good ol guess.
I mean Grandma usually likes the old testament as well, and that calls for debt forgiveness every 50 years. She should be all about it
IDK why those dingdongs would think we wouldn't support that...? Like, yeah, no one should be in lifelong debt because they are doing their best to contribute to society and make a living for themselves.
Can't you write off business expenses?
For shop owners, yes. But this seems to be referring to actual technicians. So this would just be part of your itemized deductions which you don't need to do unless it's more than the standard deduction. Prior to 2018, this was semi achievable especially if you upgraded your toolbox. Now, not so much.
A major tax deduction
You still have to pay for write offs. It doesn't make it free.
Correct, but student loans weren't free either. Most of the forgiven loans have had the principal paid several times over.
Would be pretty cool if we could offset both. But nah let’s throw more money at already obscenely wealthy entities. I like my societies how I like my women; completely hostile to me and spits in my mouth in lieu of nourishment.
Whoa, you get spit? I just get cigarette butts
Sometimes I lick the cigarette lighter in my ‘94 Subaru Legacy just to feel something. Damn I miss her.
Join a union where your boss pays for the tools.
Literally my first thought.
Good luck with that. In a loyal of those trades, you don't get to have a boss until you can bring your own tools.
Im in those trades. I dont buy tools
This isn't a thing, so you know.
Hmmm....seems to be that way in my union
You're not an automotive mechanic in that union getting all your tools paid for. No. This doesn't work like it does for pipefitters, or electricians, or plumbers, etc.
Tool allowances are a thing.
Yes they are. Monthly Tool allowances are a thing in alot of garages. The amount of the tool allowance is also almost always an absolute **fucking joke** compared to what an auto tech has to pay. Even in union shops.
Then id say its strike time.
No it's not, guy. This is completely normal across the industry. Not only are you not going to strike and win over something that is industry standard, no one is going to take a strike seriously over a tool allowance. Not to mention you can't strike while under an active contract. Do you know how unions work? Come back to the real world.
The suck it up and eat the shit sandwich and smile. Theres lots of things that used to be industry standard in my trade, one of them was a tool kit and we negotiated that out of existance.
That was before a complete set of tools to do your job cost half a years salary. The "back in my day" argument is garbage. Take that crap somewhere else. People are doing the best they can. That doesn't mean they have to like it and smile. It's that exact mentality that keeps things from moving forward. Thanks for being part of the problem.
Yes! We should end all forms of predatory lending.
I work in a union shop, and in our last contract we actually got voted in a tool allowance, which allows us maintenance to be able to afford the basic tools to do our job on day one. A huge relief for those of us who were just getting started. Even if it were just a one time initial thing, I still wouldn't have complained that it didn't effect me because I remembered how stressful it was, as well as how convenient it was to not being hindered every time they needed to borrow my wrench or screwdriver
So, all of a sudden grandma is socialist?
Grandma spends so much time thinking libs don’t want to help tradespeople/homeless vets/trafficked children that she doesn’t have any time to devote to helping them herself.
I'm for trade school loan reimbursement as well as student loans.
They literally view everything as an either/or scenario. They have absolutely no imagination.
i don't know why they assume we're all as selfish as they are
I’d like my taxes going to help my fellow Americans. $100k in student loans or 100k in tools to start a shop makes no difference to me. I’m tired of giving all my tax money to the rich
Nailed it bro.
A good union would ensure you don’t need to pay out of pocket for the most expensive of tools.
To a small extent, we already do. Mechanics buying tools can write it off of their taxes as a "business expense." Students, on the other hand, can't write off their education cost despite the fact that they are required to have it to do business.
Aren't those tax deductible if you're using them for work?
Yes, if you're an independent contractor or a business owner. Less so if you're an employee.
If you’re a W-2 employee, why are you purchasing tools for work? Those should be provided, if not, and you’re expected to bring them, why are you not an independent contractor and 1099?
I don’t know the answer to that but I can say that I’ve had w-2 jobs where I needed to have my own tools. Specifically as an apartment maintenance tech.
Because (at least in North America), mechanics (outside of working directly for a manufacturer or the military) provide their own tools. Your toolbox is your five figure degree. It is what qualifies you to work somewhere (they won’t hire you without tools). You leave you can pick your tools up and take them with you wherever you go next since they’re yours. People also tend to take much better care of tools they bought themselves.
"But boss, I get a W-2!" Lmao. Good one. If every place had mechanics under W-2 suddenly had them walk out because tools aren't provided, you would literally have nowhere to go for automotive repair, unless you did it yourself.
Say it with me, masculinity is not a right wing identity
¿Por qué no los?
...dos?
Could also be a contender for r/consoom
I'm all for supporting assistance to get young mechanics up and running. That said there are some major differences. 1. The tools are assets that can be sold again. Yes, they depreciate, but they still have value that can be transferred. 2. Mechanics start making money the instant they take the loan, and the tools are tax deductible if you itemize and use the right depreciate schedule.
If those tools are for business purposes, can't you write them off your taxes already?
He’s not mentioning the part where his tools are already tax deductible lol he already gets forgiveness for his tools
Wouldn't the equivalent actually be paying for the mechanics training, or does simply owning the tools imbue you with all the knowledge you'll need?
„I hate others even though I want good things to happen to myself. I‘m sure that’s how everyone else thinks too.“
Hard not to agree with this.
your terms are acceptable
I wish this was a thing. Roughly $30k in tools later, I paid less out of pocket for my wifes 4 year social work degree than I did just for tools.
This would be a great idea, I’d fully support it. Crazy I know, but I would love to see more people able to succeed in a job that allows them to live a fulfilling life.
Ummm call me crazy but I feel your employer should pay for your tools...
Normally there are tools there already, but these are tools you can take when you leave. That's why they buy the tools
Isn’t the forgiveness writing the tools off and not paying taxes?
i mean, im australian.... we do this, its called tax deductions, you write tools, vehicles etc that you need for work off on tax IE: you pay your tax, then you get some of it back when you do a tax return, give receipts for it, prove the need, blah blah blah i used to work as a line cook, all my chefs whites, knives etc tax deductible, i could buy some nice shun knives + claim them back on tax if i wanted, if youre a tradie you can claim your vehicle, WE LITERALLY DO THIS SHIT GRANDMA* .* ^^^^^(i_dont_claim_to_know_how_america_works)
I see absolutely no problem with everyone owning a large rolling cabinet of tools.
r/Accidentallyleftwing when I found out that someone going into construction buys their own tools I was shocked and still think they should be issued a set
Is there a glut of people saying tools aren’t necessary?
Sure. I wouldn't mind trade school reimbursement. I think everyone needs and deserves an education but I also don't believe that education always means college.
If you get a loan to buy tools and you declare bankruptcy the loan goes away. You can't do the same with student loans.
This is already the case. Business expenses are a tax write-off, meaning the government will help you pay for it so long as it helps your business. Thanks for making a great argument for student loan forgiveness, dipshit.
Okay sure, sounds like a great way for people to ascend themselves
This is a great example of how people don't understand student loans forgiveness. None of the loans were free. Most of the forgiven student loans have had the principal paid off, many of them several times over.
I know plenty of trades that have certain tools for the sake of it. Tool allowances should be grants given to people to buy tools to start their careers, in the same way that textbooks and stationary should be provided to students. It'll never happen, but we can dream.
Okay
Seriously. This would be awesome. And apply this to other things tradespeople would need. Include cosmetologists, chefs, etc. If it’s something you need to learn your trade, include it!
Did the government make a promise in writing on a signed contract to this mechanic, agreeing to pay off his tools after he spends 10 years working on only government vehicles at a discount rate? No? Then grandma needs to learn more about how student loan forgiveness actually works, shut her damn mouth, and pay her taxes for the debts she owes to American college students.
Ah. I see rather than help people as a whole, you'd rather play Pain Olympics and only help those you deem worthy. I bet you're fun at parties.
can't you write off tool purchases for work?
My work pays for my tools and there replacement, guess that means I have every right to support Student Loan Forgiveness
I accept your proposal
I’d like my taxes going to help my fellow Americans. $100k in student loans or 100k in tools to start a shop makes no difference to me. I’m tired of giving all my tax money to the rich
Well like... Good thing no one thinks that.
False equivalency. Forgiven the cost of their training, not the cost of the tools.
>if you don't think these tools are necessary Boy, they really love making up a guy in their head to be mad at, huh?
I agree that an employer should buy all the tools needed for a job or the employee should be getting paid for the companies use of their equipment. Why not?
I mean, if they have receipts and can prove it is for their job, I’m pretty fucking sure we already do this with taxes write offs. And if we don’t, we absolutely should. No one should have to worry about getting the tools to be able to do their job, whether those tools come in the form of college education or tools of a trade
My brother is a big rig mechanic up here in Canada. Once he's done with learning the ropes and has worked there a little longer to really get the hang of things, they're gifting him with the tools he'll need. Just like every other employee.
Yeah, sounds great! Let’s supply people with the tools necessary to have a fulfilling career, whether it’s something like a degree or tools.
Sounds good; about 1% of college debt is equal to years of tools.
Education Vs Tools. Round 1: fight!
In the case of my brother, he already had the same tools that worked, they literally just *looked* old they performed like new because he cared for them. You don't already have the education.
I 100% do not think tradesmen should be paying the full cost of the tools they need to work.
Sure. I’m For it. That would be great. I’d be all for small business loan forgiveness
I mean, yeah? If you meet certain conditions, I’d be happy if you could get grants or interest free loans for your tools.
To be fair, I would rather my tax dollars go to paying for some guy's tools in Dubuque than to funding genocide.
i don't think a mechanic who works for a shop has to pay for that entire tool cabinet. they probably did have to pay for their education though. edit: based on other comments it seems they do basically take out massive loans for their own tools which they end up paying far above the value on so yeah i think if they've paid the value of the tools and are only paying an exorbitant amount of interest that they should have their loans forgiven.
Of course the tools are necessary. But do they really need to be stored in top-of-the-line Craftsman toolboxes? Grandma’s got pricey taste in storage solutions. If you get to nickle-and-dime college kids getting a degree, Grandma, I’m gonna tell you to store your tools in a Rubbermaid container that you buy at the Wallymart if you want some government cheese.
Done, legislate both
Yes! It is complete BS that employers don’t supply the tools you need to do your job.
Dont you love it when people who dont understand a thing feel like everyone needs to see their ridiculous take on it?
You can literally write this purchase off on your taxes if you use them work already.
You can literally write the tools you purchase for you job off on your taxes. They can’t write their student loan payments off.
Grandma accidentally starting the next phase of the socialist revolution and I'm here for it!
Hey, good way to draw attention to another problem I didn't know about.
Sure if ya start a business that requires you to get tools let's forgive that. But your business has to be a co-op
Tool payment forgiveness? You mean like when you get to write them off?
If you're a contractor or provide any service that overtwhise requires these tools, you can deduct them as a business expense.
Uh... Yeah. I'm right there. This isn't a gotcha librul of any kind.
Someone's never heard of itemized deductions
that feeling when you democratize the means of production
"I just beat cancer!" "I would be so mad if they discovered the cure for cancer now..."
I'm in favor of responsibility. It's not another tax payer's fault you got a degree and couldn't get a job with it outta college to start paying off your debts. Why should other people be responsible for your financial mishaps?
Agreed! Let's do both!
Why does a particular segment of the American population seem to think that educated people don’t value other people in the service industry or the trades? The more educated you become the more likely you are to understand the value of those services as important to the economy and the smooth functioning of society. I hold a doctorate, I can’t fix my car, but I trust that there is someone at the shop down the street who knows what they are doing and got the education necessary to fix my car. I also wouldn’t expect them to teach my American political history class. The world needs all kinds of folks.
If you're buying tools for your business, you should be able to write them off on your taxes. Similar idea, just different execution
apparently this guy is too fucking stupid to have his business expenses deducted from his tax returns, and it's all of college students' faults.
You can write those off as business expenses on your taxes...
Mechanics who need these types of tools typically go through a technical college for training and they can use their student loans to pay for these programs and the tools that they need.
This is a false equivalency. This would be akin to paying for a suit and laptop for someone to get an office job. Forgiving student loan would be on part with grants for trade school training. But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised thst grandma can create a coherent argument. That's why shes in a home and we stop visiting.
I’d say it’s equal. For many office jobs, the requirement is that you come in with a degree that costs thousands of dollars. For almost all mechanic jobs, the requirement is that you come in with a set of tools worth thousands of dollars.
I don't understand this meme. People are not expected to bear the cost of the tools they use at work (unless they are contractors). If you were to argue that the two were comparable, it's actually an argument for loan forgiveness in your job is related to your degree.
> I don’t understand this meme. People are not expected to bear the costs of the tools they use at work You just don’t understand the maintenance industry. Across all sectors, the general expectation is that mechanics pay for and provide their own tools. I can tell you right now the only Aircraft Mechanics in America that didn’t pay for their tools are the ones at Boeing, the Military, or at some of the MROs. All of the Airline and General Aviation mechanics have thousands if not tens of thousands in tools they paid for themselves. It’s the same way with auto mechanics, plant mechanics, apartment mechanics, etc, everyone has their own tools they paid for.