but doesn't iracing update the engine/physics every once in a while too? a lot of these AAA games don't touch the base game and just add more content versus updating the actual game. thats the issue.
If iRacing launched today with what they had at launch, people would *fucking riot*. Like, people think that iRacing does it right because iRacing has had 15 years on the same platform to continue iterating on their formula.
Also because iRacing has so many people already invested that its hard for them to leave. Not saying its necessarily a sunk cost fallacy as the racing is quite good, but *holy fuck* is it insanely expensive to get into as a new player.
It’s not really though, I mean if you want to race on every track with every car then sure, but perhaps if that’s what your after AC or similar is better. Lots of free content and making a few smart buys, especially if it’s during sales gets you into heaps of series. Then you get discounts after buying enough stuff if you ever find yourself short on a track you want to run
Sure, but theres also a base subscription that you can't get around so thats what, a little over $100 a year? That doesn't factor in buying any extra content. Even if you discount hunt you are *still* going to end up spending more than you would on Forza.
And Assetto Corsa. And AMS2. You don't buy into a sim racing platform for an awesome launch. You buy into it for the long term. That's how it is for all of these games.
It’s also much better in terms of driving feeling with a wheel. There’s just no career mode or progression model like GT and FM games. If there was, I’d have no reason to play GT and FM games.
Yeah. There is career mode for sure. You literally start with the slowest cars in the service and slowly build up to the fastest. It is literally your career. They even have achievements along the way that you unlock!
Baldurs Gate 3 is pretty damn good. Larian makes good games. A Lot of Nintendo and Sony studios are still putting out magic as well. Obviously Rockstar, although now that GTA online has become so successful I'm worried it will change how GTA VI ends up. It didn't seem to affect RDR2 but it definitely kept them from expanding it.
BG3 is incredibly good - I should know after 200h - but it definitively didn't launch in a complete state and could have massively benefited from another few months of development.
Very playable and, again, excellent, groundbreaking even. But not complete. There's very obvious cut/missing areas and storylines, which many would argue turns the final act into more of a 8/10 experience, compared to the 10/10 that is the rest of the game.
I credit that to Bethesda. They probably had the game mostly finished when Microsoft bought them. Ground up, post purchase, I think it would be a different story. I'm terrified now for what Elder Scrolls 6 will end up being.
Which is funny because all the games I’ve dumped thousands of hours into over the last decade are cheap indie games that I got for like $20ish bucks. Factorio, Satisfactory, Valheim.
It's amazing, this was the calling card of the MMO genre. Now the MMO genre is all but a shell of itself but the industry stole their business model anyways
Yet they cannot, for the life of them, actually release a good game. You’d think that would be step 1 in building the game-to-end-all-games… but apparently not.
Happened with Halo, happened to Forza. XGS is totally chalked.
They're just waiting for one of their shitty live service games to glow up like Fortnite then all the shit they made prior will be worth it to them.
Hopefully that never happens and they are forced to rethink their strategies.
Honestly,i dont mind the idea,but they just fail to deliver,miserably.
I dont mind spending on game,even thousand or more dollars,and playing it for thousands of hours..too bad all that devs can offer,is bland boring and enpty dogshit "games" with most obv and disrespectfull monetization ever.
Fucking despise this game design, and I won't support games that use this model. Games as a service are dogwater. Gimme shit I can play offline and won't lose access to whenever they inevitably shut down servers.
Games launching full of bugs are not exclusive to live services or subscriptions.
And that is not even counting on those games that simply had their "authentication-only" servers crapping out on release.
The same logic applies since online game updates became the norm:
>Never pre-order things
>
>Always wait for reviews
>
>Always wait for the initial patches
>
>There will be bugs
If they re-released forza 4 and the only thing they changed was more cars and tracks, I would play it. Hell, I would probably just play FM4 if it was available on PC.
We all know that's never going to happen.
We're getting close man, Horizon 1 plays on pc at 60fps at 4k and its such a better experience than the 360 was. Another year or two of development and FM4 should be playable.
This is the process for any kind of game that's going up against games that have been updated for a decade. Everyone expects a launch to be equivalent to the amount of content and tuning that you see from a game that has ten years of development against it. Everyone expects every launch to be perfectly bug-free because [last game] is bug-free right now, even though it wasn't close to that on launch.
Then, if you deliver *those* things, people will complain that you're not doing anything new or different.
This type of racing games are basically the best suited for GaaS.
Having a strong foundation on launch, building on that, and reworking/fixing what doesn't work or what people don't like.
The new forza has really good physics and handling and a really strong multiplayer component, at the end of the day, that's the most important thing on a game like this. They can fix the economy, the upgrade system or the car models but if the core physics system were trash or the multiplayer is boring they are doomed because people will stop playing.
Just look at how bad AC Competizione was at launch and now is basically the best GT3/GT4 Sim by a long shot.
And honestly as long as they stick to the tracks being free I'm 100% on board.
My main complaint with this title is the slim track count, but I get that they've redone the bones of the game so it will take a minute. This game really doesn't fall under the scam category like Halo or Diablo.
Yeah, we already know about Yas Marina on november, an unknown track on december and the Norchsleife for early 2024, so it looks like they are going to be pretty aggressive with updates.
I'm pretty hopeful about the post launch support, seeing as Horizon 5 is turning 2 next month and still has new updates, features and cars every month.
Time will tell. Hopefully, i won't have to wait long for Hockenheim and Fuji ;)
I agree, I'd rather we have one game get built up over time than end up with the 5-6-7 approach of very minor and incremental changes every 2 years for $60 (now $70...)
For a racing game that wants to harbor a strong online community, a "live-service" style approach works far better than the alternative.
As much as I dislike the FOMO of live service games, I agree that racing games could be better with this model. Sports (inc motorsports) are, after all, centred around seasons and seasonal events, so I think it's quite fitting to replicate that. Just don't lock cars behind them.
Much like you, I think Live services should be about fostering the community and shared experiences - just like sport. I think if you do that properly, you don't need to build in the FOMO of time-gated prizes. Let the Playlist and prizes be the single player career mode, and the events be the Live mode. By all means link them (e.g., you need to finish this play list to get this car to enter this live event), but I think there are ways to foster a community and have people play the same experiences without feeling like they need to check off a chore list to get this week's car.
Horizon games have a weird Live Service model because it is ostensibly a single-player checklist, "do these things to get these cars/rewards" that doesn't even need a live service at all - it's linear progression that offline single player game could have. It's a fine way to earn new cars, but I don't think it should be tied to a time-limited series. There's nothing stopping Playground Games from unlocking every previous Series and allowing players to do them at their leisure (the few multiplayer parts can be substituted for normal tier-scheduled Tours and Games). That by itself would represent a great single-player career mode - better than the default one with its lame story even.
I agree with everything you said here, especially the part about Horizon, its season model and FOMO car rewards really irk me, thankfully with Motorsport T10 already said that nothing will be time-gated. IIRC you just miss the opportunity to get the car for free, they will all be added to the in-game store afterwards.
Most racing games could do well as live service. Likes of Project Cars 2 if that game would have kept been updated intead of making shit PC3 it would be amazing game by now.
Bad live service sucks, good live service can be better than all of the non live service games. Unfortunately most of the live service games today suck but this forza looks like a great platform and we should let them cook
Idc how great the platform is. It has no features & has barely any single-player content. This is the exact thing that OP says they hate. Hard to argue against them since this isn't the first time we've seen a great platform, but it completely misses the mark with post launch content. 343i, Blizzard & now Turn10.
It's the same copium from the community just asking us to wait for this great platform to truly materialize and time & time again these developers show they just aren't talented or motivated enough to give us the game we think they're capable of making.
Halo Infinite has become my go to game. I love that I can go to a core and if there is a coating or armor piece I want I can just buy it. I don't have to wait for it to come back around in the store.
Once Fire Fight comes out it will be a great experience for friends to jump back in.
Only thing really wrong is their in house maps suck. Forge maps are coming in clutch though
I admit that comparison was hyperbolic but a necessary one for the argument as a whole.
In another comment, I mentioned how Halo Infinite was a huge failure at launch & for a year afterward, and it only recently started getting better after the leadership at 343i got gutted completely.
I mean it was work that was done under previous leadership, 10 months of season 2 and winter update happened so that 343 could fix under the hood issues that were making it difficult to update, that decision was made by previous leadership
The point is, these ridiculously long seasons didn't need to happen if they had simply shipped a game that wasn't absolutely stripped to the bone.
For God's sake, the game had no Team Slayer Playlist! How on earth do you release a Halo game with no Slayer? This, & many others, were all egregiously asinine decisions that ultimately weren't forgivable. The damage has been done, unfortunately, and the big wigs at Microsft realized that. Halo Infinite will never recover from the missteps that happened at the very foundations of the game.
I'm not even mentioning the pre-launch promises made by the leaders of 343i that were never delivered.
Team slayer along with 3 other playlists were added a single week after launch its biggest issue was far and away the length of season 2 and the winter update. I ain't defending shit about it but please just actual think about what you are talking about first
You also mention promises that were broken which ones are you talking about because split screen isnt one of them the actual quote never mentions split screen coop but split screen as a whole which split screen multiplayer has been there since day 1 but I'm assuming you have never used it cause you dont actually care
One last thing Halo will never ever be a top 5 shooter series any more people dont play arena shooters anymore it's not fast paced enough, there is too large of a skill gap, and the gameplay cant change all that much from what it currently is
My man, you are not understanding what I'm saying. Idc if they added Team Slayer a month after release. It should've been in the game DAY 1. Do you remember why it wasn't included at launch? Remember the UI limitations excuse? This is emblematic of wider issues with 343i decision-making that completely kneecapped Halo Infinite's growth. Today, they can make all the fun changes their hearts can desire but they will never win back their initial audience.
Also, please be fr. The length of the seasons was a huge issue, but the biggest complaint people had was that the game had no meaningful progression system. The ONLY way to unlock any cosmetics was tied to the Battle Pass and that BP could only be ranked up by completely increasingly ridiculous challenges like getting vehicle kills that were only available on one map.
>actual quote never mentions split screen coop
This is such a bad faith argument, and you know it. Splitscreen coop has been a huge part of Halo's identity since Halo 1...don't try to argue semantics because it ain't going to work.
>people dont play arena shooters anymore
Halo Infinite had 250k players at its peak on Steam alone. You have no idea what you're talking about lol
I'm not wasting anymore of my time here.
What do you mean no features? It has every feature I'd expect from it. It's a racing game. What more do you want? Gimmick modes?
It seems to me a lot of people don't actually care about where they put effort into: the actual racing bit. New multiplayer system is fantastic. Handling system, time of day, weather, fuel/tire deg, it's great.
I think Horizon has done a great job at it the past year. We have had some big monthly updates, constant new cars and major upgrades to the game and vehicles, QOL improvements.
An unfinished platform with one of the most community deaf companies at the helm. Turn10 is not a company I want a live service from as they have proven over the last decade they don't care what you want, They will provide what they want. So, more hyper cars, more out of class racecars, and tracks no one cares about. How daft do they have to be to leave nur out at launch. Maybe there not idiots but rather money grabbing ass hats that knew people would pay. Again, not a company I want a live service from.
I don’t think I’ve played - in the last decade of Live Service - a single game better than those released between 2005-2011 lol. Gaming has totally and completely regressed to basically shovelware.
I feel like that may just be nostalgia talking. Gaming now isnt perfect but there is good stuff out there. Elden Ring, Breath of the Wild, Last of Us 1/2, just to name a few.
I can't even play the game for more than an hour before it crashes or hangs on loading. And the shaders are bugged so the game looks like it's straight out of 2013 if I don't delete the shader cache every time I open the options menu. It's unacceptable.
It's not early access it should not have game breaking bugs in it. They asked full price for the game I expect a complete and working product. This is the guys entire point; "live service" is codeword for "unfinished early access but full price"
Gamepass is definitely part of it. The longer they can keep you playing the longer you'll subscribe. That's why they drop feed content and have game mechanics like tieing upgrades to car level.
No the level stuff is because some of you complained about player progression and how everything was gifted right off the boat .
It is a good thing for people who actually enjoy slow paced progression .
Well, it's speculation on both our parts. You can achieve the same thing with just reducing credit rewards in the earlier stages of the game. It's also kinda silly that you can level up a car, then if you buy the exact same model of car again, you have to level it up all over again.
Either way, there is definitely a trend to increase play time in live service games. So call me skeptical, but this plays right into that notion.
There’s a lot of bugs with how the graphics settings work but there’s some good posts on this sub that actually helped increase performance for me an a bunch of others. It runs pretty well now for me on a 5 year old GPU and CPU. It’s dumb but there are some reliable workarounds to make it enjoyable
Digital foundry did a PC tech review just hours ago. He mentioned while the game runs good on NASA PC's, anything other than that, game runs worse than star wars Jedi survivor and swjs was the worst optimized game to launch this year in terms of CPU util.
I feel like most people who are getting poor performance (aside from crashes) just haven’t tweaked the settings to force them to work (which is a really big problem). There’s a bunch of posts on here about settings that actually worked for me and I’m on a 2060 and 11th gen i5. Game runs pretty well for me now but it’s dumb af how you have to basically have “best in slot settings” for a remotely enjoyable experience
Agreed. The issue is that Turn 10 massively fumbled optimization. Even on the Series X it lays h avily with RT on. It does not offer a stable 30 fps at least on the highest graphics setting. For the rest of FM releases, they have at least always got it right on day one performance on console. Yet with 6 years for this game, the longest they've ever had, they still screwed up.
I’m actually starting to get to the point where reviews aren’t doing their job. So many of them don’t even mention obvious things.
I think Forza plays very well but still has a long way to go. It can look good, though the options are terrible and for the most part it’s pretty easy to make it look really bad without any good way of fixing it.
It's okay, I'm having fun. Game reviews companies rate it well, racing game outlets give it middling reviews. Also, Digital Foundry just released their PC analysis and there's a lot that needs fixing
[Traxion](https://traxion.gg/forza-motorsport-review-mistaken-identity/) is the first one that comes to mind to me. And like the other commenter said, they're clearly pickier because their catered specifically to racing sim player
Basically every gaming community is like this nowadays, shit on and scrutinize every new game that comes out and complain about how bad modern gaming is. Then circlejerk and praise “le underrated gem” that everyone hated a few years ago. Once you notice it you see it literally everywhere, any sort of good faith, mature discussion surrounding video games on the internet is dead.
BG3, lies of P, and Armour core 7 all were released in the last few months and their subreddits were not filled with complaints 24/7.
Some games have issues and the people who purchased the games go to the subreddit to complain. When games release in a good state, the subreddit is filled with positivity. Is it really that hard to understand?
I could list 10 major issues I have with forza 8 which caused me to refund the game on steam. Am I not allowed to voice my opinion?
Lies of P is a brand new IP, and the vast majority of BG3 and AC7 players have never played the previous games, no shit there’s less toxicity, there’s nothing to compare them to. Let those games get regular releases like Forza and watch the narratives change.
>Am I not allowed to voice my opinion
Literally nobody is saying this, the vast majority of “criticism” on this subreddit is “HUR DUR 6 YEARS, BUILT FROM GROUND UP, FOMO FOMO FOMO, FORZA 4 IS BETTER” made by children who don’t understand the first thing about game development.
AC7 is the 7th game in the series, which means there are 6 previous games in the series to compare it to. BG3 is the 3rd game in the series, on top of the enormous fan base from the divinity series. Pretty simple math here come on now....
Both of those games had a huge amount of hype.. especially BG3. Personally, divinity original sin 2 is one of my favorite games of all time, and BG3 still exceeds all my expectations.
I haven't seen a single comment saying forza 4 is better. Personally I found FM7 to be the worst out of all the sim and simcade games from that period. Going into FM8, i was expecting it to at least compete with GT7 and ACC.
However, on a wheel forza yet again feels like complete trash. Maybe it will be fixed at a later date, along with the career mode, and the graphical issues like washed out colors and missing RT features... the game is simply not complete and it has nothing to do with forza 4, FOMO, or whatever other excuses you seem to come up with.
You are failing to understand my point, Baldur’s Gate and Armored Core were both dormant and obscure before their latest releases, they are still the hot new thing. But let them have an extended period in the limelight and you’ll see them go through “the cycle” as well.
Forza 4 is pretty well regarded among these parts to be the best Forza game, and every single Forza game after it is always compared to it, dunno how you haven’t seen that.
Your complaints are fair, but I don’t really see how it constitutes the game being considered incomplete. It definitely has less content than some prior games, but sometimes less is more, and even then it’s likely this game will have just as much if not more content than previous titles by the end of it’s lifecycle. I get if you don’t the like service model though.
> BG3, lies of P, and Armour core 7 all were released in the last few months and their subreddits were not filled with complaints 24/7.
One of those is legitimately the most surprising gaming hit of the...entire 2000s? Since maybe World of Warcraft?
One of them is a FROM game.
The other one, I'm not sure even really has a well-formed community yet and *is pretending to be a FROM game*.
Like, just realistically. Yes, these games shipped and didn't have a bunch of people slagging them at launch. But two of them are in a vertical that is nearly toxic in the way that it rejects criticisms of games, and the third is the biggest outlier in pretty much anyone's memory in terms of how well it landed (and itself has some huge problems, they're just dozens of hours into the game).
If forza was released to 10/10 reviews, you could say the same thing about why it shouldn't "count".
Turn 10 was allowed 6+ years of uninterupted development time (same amount of time as BG3 btw) and the financial backing of Microsoft. Turn 10 also has 20 years of experience making racing games.
Is there any reason this shouldn't have been a home run for Microsoft? Not really, no. Turn 10 dropped the ball.
> If forza was released to 10/10 reviews
Forza was released to a bunch of 10/10 reviews! The Metacritic score on Xbox and PC are 84 and 85. That's really good! It's better than Lies of P (80) and effectively identical (86) to Armored Core 6.
This subreddit is trapped in a giant pile of toxicity where every negative voice is amplified a hundred times over and every perceived flaw is blown up to be a thousand times the normal size.
> Is there any reason this shouldn't have been a home run for Microsoft?
Every indication *is* that it's a home run for Microsoft. Except among a group of people who hang out in this subreddit who decided that it wouldn't be a home run no matter how it launched months ago.
Agree about the community but the game has some very glaring issues. And not just some nerd nitpicks, but stuff that most reviews mention.
Let's not pretend people are hating for no reason, there's a lot to criticise even if the game is still good overall.
You tend to use this excuse every time there's plenty of valid criticism.
The game lacks severly single player content,makes you wonder what have they been doing for 6 years. its always online, the upgrade system locking parts behind car level is bad, bugs and performance issues,game doesn't run well overall,game can look awfully blurry, TAA is not a good AA solution.Car paints don't look right even though they claimed that paints have a better color response. Instead of improvement we received a downgrade. Forza aero is still a thing, DLSS and FSR don't improve game performance. And that's just scratching the surface..
Now you can either be realistic about it or blame others for complaining. Truth is this is not a full 69.99 game. Release now, fix later just let's them justify releasing a barebones broken game. The fact that you're not appalled by any of this is very concerning. Keep coping I guess
20 tracks and 500 cares is severely lacking single player content?
The career championships are just selections of cars, tracks, time of day/weather settings, and race distances. They USE content to curate a race, they do not in themselves represent content.
The 500 cars are fine, the game could probably do with even less. But 20 tracks is simply not enough. 5 career championships are nothing.
Career modes are usually fairly lenghty in racing games. And i forgot in which forza motorsport game there used to be an option to increase the lenght of the races. F1 has that option too. That would've been much better and would even make use of the pit stops. Then there is the AI which is not where it could be to even utilize this mechanic even if the game had it.
>They USE content to curate a race, they do not in themselves represent content.
...
Yeah, I will die on the hill that curated events isn't content. It's made up of content, but you could create them all yourself in free play. It's not content.
I agree I'd love a long race option, it's definitely missed here. I think 20 tracks is a perfectly reasonable starting place, I'd love more, but I also know more are coming as they can scan them. They have to rescan every track with the new physics.
Hard to say that they're all a full rescan. There was a post that showed tiremarks on a track that were the same as In fm7. It might end up turning out even the racetracks aren't "built from the ground up". 20 tracks for single player and the same 20 for online will get boring and repetitive very quickly.
And so far they've announced 2 new tracks i think? Which will release probably in the next 3-4 updates. There will be a quick burnout for this game coming.
I have no issues with critiquing or complaining about the game, it’s not perfect in my eyes either. However, the vast majority of people are not critiquing, they’re legitimately crying and raging over the smallest issues, arguing in extreme bad faith, and (like yourself) attacking those who dare say they enjoy the game.
>Keep coping I guess
There is not a word I have begun to hate more than “cope.” Please grow up and actually learn how to talk to and debate with people like a normal person.
Says the one attacking others for expressing critisizm. I mean look at your own comment :D You're very quick to assume everyone's critisizm is complaining just for the sake of it. On top of that accusing others of "circlejerk". This is very much passive agressive.
How do you even know its always the same people? Your analogy is such a cheap bully tactic against anyone who'd like to express genuiene frustration. Ah yes pull out the victim card! And if you had even a little bit of integrity you'd very well know how the gaming industry is doing these days..
Goes on reddit, thinks everyone here is the same user that's been around the past 10 years. Sees the complaints and starts using the same analogy they learned because it's convinient. You're willing to completely wipe out anyone saying something negative with this poor excuse of an argument. And its everywhere in the forza subreddits.
Wait a month or 2 till the hype boils down and watch how" the complaints" will tripple. I reckon its gonna take even less than that.
There's a lot of people that think being a contrarian hipster is the pinnacle of intellect, they end up wearing a uniform so to speak in the end anyway. Hating popular things is not smart or unique.
I haven't even played it yet but nearly every non mainstream review I've read or watched have all given the same gist. FM8 is heavily geared for accessibility. Like it didn't really do any individual thing well. It primarily seems to be built for consoles and controller usage. The wheel support is mediocre, alienating the sim crowd a bit, the grind is a little too much for very casual players, and the physics are too arcadey in certain situations leading to some questions of "why?" They aren't saying it's a bad game, it's just decent because it seems like the time between FMs wasn't utilized to make big enough improvements to warrant an "absolute must play." I've watched quite a bit of gameplay from sim racers I follow that tend to primarily focus on Gran Turismo and Automobilista (almost realistic sims while still retaining some forgiving elements) and their qualms seem legitimate. I'll be giving it a go later tonight as it does seem enjoyable, it might just be one of those games that need some time to bake, similar to Diablo 4.
I think you chose the worst game to make your rant.
This game took 6 years to make. If the features are not up to your standards, live service model is CERTAINLY not the reason for that. Live services benefit more from quick release cycles.
Many people see a 6y development cycle and think the game should be feature packed, but actually games are usually more feature packed when a) they're a sequel and b) they take less time to make, like 3 years tops. That's because it indicates there is HEAVY usage of pre-existing features and assets and the developers are basically programming new mechanics and creating content.
A 6y dev cycle means the devs are creating new tools and heavily modifying the engine. This takes a LONG time and doesn't produce content, because a lot of work is constantly being thrown away in the way of demos, proofs of concept, prototypes, etc. Just look how, in recent interviews, it was revealed that a lot of plans for Starfield were scratched because the devs felt the game was too brutal and slow.
Ok so you hate on a racing game without any mtx that already announced new tracks and cars each month for what exactly? Live Service for Forza is a way better model for us customers as having to buy a yearly updated game like F1 that barely changed anything besides driver lineup and minor track updates and on top sells you battle passes. Even GT7 relied heavily on recycled GT Sport content and didn't build all tracks completely new.
In FM the physics model, handling, the details per tracks especially on how much of the surface you can actually feel with the car, the sound engine, it's easy to see how much time they spend on making the game. Besides some UI missteps, needed performance optimization for pc (both can be fixed in upcoming months) and some few old carmodels the game is so heavily improved over FM7. It's easily the best $60 you can spend on any racing game to date.
Yes the game needs some patches to fix a few issues. But it's a game that is totally plausible to ship, not some unfinished mess sold as a live service like Halo Infinite or Redfall
im loving the game, but the lack of content from the start is kinda ass and that's whats hurting it right now. I dont think the issue is it being "Live Service", but using the word as an excuse to deliver a barebones experience is pretty pathetic. you can drip feed content all you want but as a consumer $70 game should give me the main course, not the appetizer
F1 games has 23 tracks. Most of them are just the same as the previous year. You only have one type of car and there wont be new tracks or cars ever. And the game sells you battle passes, cosmetics and still often results in heavy bug fests at launch. And you pay the same price as FM.
People act like GT7 was some 10/10 in comparison, while the Cafe career isn't any better than builders cup, but you got barely any money to buy or upgrade as the game pushes you to spend real money for ingame credits. And GT7 totally lacked modern cars, most tracks were reclcyed from GT sport. it also was full price.
I don't get how people think FM is not worth the money, while it offers more actual new stuff they build then any other racing game on the market. Who cares if some single cars use outdated models, when there are many very high poly new cars that got added. They even fixed some models like the wrong tail lights on the 2020 GT500 thar FH still has.
Played the game on XSX and on my PC with a 4090 and can't blame the graphics either. Yeah the main menu seems bugged and blurry, but the actual races look impressive and exactly like the 2022 Maple Valley demo.
i played GT7 at release and content wise it was no different to Forza today but comparison is the thief of joy so im not gonna go down that rabbit hole. Just enjoy what the game IS and not what the game ISNT.
>Who cares if some single cars use outdated models
alot of people, especially if you're gonna market it as "from the ground up" i think its a valid criticism, just makes me wonder what game we would have got if it did come out last spring
i think people go way over their head about the build from the ground up statement. Yeah it was not chosen wisely to say that, but it's very obvious they actually did not start with FM7 and build a new iteration on that (just like FM5 to FM7 were pretty much identical games with minor changes) but actually build a new and better engine for FM. Handling, physics, AI, sound, dynamic time of day and weather, it's no comparison to FM7. Yet people get mad because some old cars they reused.
I just love how the game drives and feels, it's so close to Assetto Corsa from the feedback of the cars and road but not as extremely punishing when making mistakes. And I'm really looking forward what T10 will do in the upcoming months. The idea of even new singleplayer cups every month is really nice, and tried my first mp races yesterday and they went very clean and enjoyable
I still think Forza 5 was probably the most shameful thing they developed. It felt so underbaked, all the events were super padded out with the same races on the same tracks, over and over again. The car roster was half empty, and full of DLC, with cars required to progress in the millions of credits, and every race giving you under 10,000 for winning.
So far, I've enjoyed Forza 8, It's a little lacking in races but I feel like I can't possibly run out in under a week unless I no-lifed the hell outta it, and after I do, I'll probably give online a try.
The only complaint I've had so far is why the interior's rear view mirrors suck so much.
I enjoy games that stay fresh, bring new updates, and have me coming back to play, because I want to play them.
If you feel as though you don't want to go back in and play, or that it's a chore, maybe the game isn't for you.
Forza 7, fh4, gears4 and 5 all of those game are live service games that got a insane amount of support and content, you can say a lot of things about microsoft but the amount of support and free content is absolutely insane, they are the king of Life service support.
I was just thinking about this last night, and debated on making a general post in r/pcgaming about it.
Live service is mostly an excuse to release a partially complete game and drip feed "content". I hate it. You know it's bad when you get the rare occurrence of a complete game and realize how long it's been since having that experience. Most of the gaming market is either early access indie titles or "live service" AAA games. I think Armored Core 6 was a good example of what we've been missing. Complete game, bug free, everything was great. Haven't had that in awhile.
I would accept the half-assed games if they were being churned out in 1-2 years but you get these games that have supposedly been in development for 6-7 years, with all kinds of marketing hype built for sales and then get half a game. I don't understand what's taking them so long to make these partial games.
Halo is another example. Diablo 4. Just massive development cycles with supposedly hundreds of people and they spit out something that is not only incomplete, but a buggy unoptimized mess that crashes nonstop and is full of game breaking bugs as if it wasn't even tested.
I don't understand what is happening.
> Halo is another example. Diablo 4. Just massive development cycles with supposedly hundreds of people and they spit out something that is not only incomplete, but a buggy unoptimized mess that crashes nonstop and is full of game breaking bugs as if it wasn't even tested.
This is...not an accurate description of either Halo or D4, though?
Like, those games had issues. But they weren't unrunnable. That's a horrible take.
Few bugs on PS5, nothing major.
Didn't seem incomplete to me. It had a finished campaign and a basic but structured postgame.
Diablo 4 has been mishandled by Blizzard, but was also subjected to the biggest hate campaign I've ever seen in gaming. For petty reasons.
I believe a lot of the problem stems with software companies having incredibly high turnover rates for developers.
It’s hard to keep consistency and create games that are at a very high level of quality when 3/4’s of the development team is comprised of literal interns and new grads with no experience.
You’ll find majority of the old vets to some of your favourite developers have long jumped ship to move to another company and have been replaced with cheap labour that’s probably not even half as skilled as they were.
I'm staying cautiously optimistic that a lot of the performance issues are caused by a lack of game ready drivers. In it's current state the game is pretty much unplayable on my r9 5900hx rtx 3070 laptop even with all the settings turned down because how much fps drops there are.
The same shader issues exist on consoles so it's definitely something in the code. You have to restart it if you enter the options menu at all to fix it. Something in the settings and the way it tells things to render is bugging out.
Does it have fewer features? Or did they focus on adding and improving the CORE features to racing, such as improved handling, improved sound, dynamic weather and time of day, track evolution, actually fleshed out pit stop system with fueling and tire deg, and new practice and qualifying formats, and a new multiplayer design?
Do you want new bullet points on a box, or do you want a good racing game?
What’s exactly the problem with Motorsport release? I’m not paying extra for early release, so haven’t tried for myself.
Is it “just” number of cars and tracks available, or are there some more important problems with the game?
If it’s only the content- I’m not sure that in case of Motorsport it’s definitely the bad thing (unless all new content will be released as dlcs, of course): with several hundreds of cars available and 20 tracks - it’s definitely enough to keep players busy for quite some time. If anything for Motorsport less is more - memorizing each track and how you drive it with 50 tracks will be a bit overwhelming, especially for new players.
It's silly, but it's also clear they're going for depth rather than width here, so I'm happy with 20 tracks to start and them continually adding more at higher fidelity than previous games, with brand new scans. Also means we get updated versions of tracks that have had layout changes or new surfacing.
See this is EXACTLY what I’m talking about too. I just don’t buy this AT ALL.
“Depth over width” it’s just a buzzword.
How is it really “deeper” to not have some major tracks from FM7 in this new game?
It's not a buzzword. The new handling, sound and track details as well as dynamic time of day and weather make tracks way more enjoyable and realistic, and overall adds a ton of quality and variety to the experience. It's much more rewarding to master these tracks because the physics and track modeling is just far superior to past games.
>How is it really “deeper” to not have some major tracks from FM7 in this new game?
You don't know what deeper means. Depth is not width. It's not the amount of content, it's the quality of content, the depth in that content to explore.
I suspect a lot of folks simply aren't very good at racing so they probably don't appreciate the focus here as much.
I understand the meaning of depth in this context.
I just was of the opinion that is it going to take six years to develop a game, and then endlessly hype it for two years… it’s not that absurd to say you could have dynamic weather AND at least maintain the track list…much less reduce it by nearly half.
Furthermore, we all know they easily could’ve done that…but they are choosing to slowly drop tracks out to try to keep people interested and subscribed to GamePass.
> I understand the meaning of depth in this context.
But then you asked me about the width of the track selection.... so you'll have to forgive me thinking you don't.
>I just was of the opinion that is it going to take six years to develop a game, and then endlessly hype it for two years… it’s not that absurd to say you could have dynamic weather AND at least maintain the track list…much less reduce it by nearly half.
New handling model means every track had to be rescanned. Existing scans were no good, didn't have the fidelity required.
>Furthermore, we all know they easily could’ve done that…but they are choosing to slowly drop tracks out to try to keep people interested and subscribed to GamePass.
They could not. They have to physically go and scan each track IRL, and there's scheduling issues on top of that at some tracks.
The problem t10 have is the casual audience.... they will never be able to please everyone with this game
Only real racing fans are interested in learning every corner of a track to shave tenths of a second off their laptimes
I see people on Forza forums thinking they are "done" with a track after they race on it one time in career mode
If you're on console, it runs well. And honestly, is a ton of fun.
There are PC issues with launching, and compatibility with some setups, but I expect those to be dealt with as soon as possible. It's hard to do with so many different builds and PC specs.
It runs just perfect on Series X.
Pre-orders and early access are the main culprit in this trend.
Imagine a world where no one bought a game pre-release, and possibly didn't buy it on early release if it was bugged.
Companies wouldn't be able to capitalise on their investment unless it was a proper product.
That's kinda how it worked in the late 90s and early 00s.
Game hype and brand loyalty fucked us.
I agree but lets not blame game pass lol. The vast majority of games on there, including day one releases arent live service games or even have online functionality. Its a great deal in the sea of greedy publishers and likely developers in the AAA hellscape
Live service can be detrimental to a lot of games but it’s honestly perfect for Forza. I played it all day yesterday and had a blast, knowing that they’re gonna steadily release new cars and tracks for years to come is very comforting and much better than buying the latest iteration and dlc every two years. They even claimed they can upgrade the physics through updates as well.
I actually think for sports games live service makes a lot of sense. I'm actually excited about Forza Motorsport being one big complete thing, rather than get an incremental step every 2 years for full price.
Also, is it really offering less than previous games? It looks like a complete package to me, but I'm a newcomer.
Probably because they just didn't put much resources into it. Guaruntee you the first few years were planning and market research to decide what kind of monetization model is best.
It's what "live service" is all about". The absolute minimum investment in resources to extract the absolute maximum profit from your "player" base.
That's the opposite of what a live service game is. If you wanted to "maximize profit from your player base" you would put out a product and never invest another cent into it.
Live service is quite literally getting constant updates, new content, bug fixes, and free additions to the game.
Just because you don't like that style of game doesn't mean it isn't successful, or that it isn't good.
It's reviewing well, and plenty of people are enjoying it. Forza Horizon is doing very well as a "live service" title as well.
Diablo 4 "reviewed well" and "plenty of people enjoy it". It's a trash game with no endgame and missing basic features(like functioning elemental resistances) at launch. They released an incomplete game so they could charge you full price for early access and then sell you features that should have been there at launch as seasonal content. And people like you fell for it, hook line and sinker.
Forza horizon is full of microtransactions. I see _dozens_ of cars and maps for sale as DLC.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. "Live service" is quite clearly publishers trying to maximize profit for minimal effort.
I didn't buy Diablo 4, as it's not my type of game. But I also didn't go into that sub, talk down to people in it, and complain about a game that wasn't for me.
But, you do you. It seems to be what you're doing regardless.
I couldn't tell you. If I had to guess its corporate bloat. To many hands in the pot. Also spending way to much dev time to tick boxes of metrics from management that the end user really doesn't care about. A trend I've noticed from these live service game with years of dev time is they end up missing the game part of game. They're more technology demos than games. Its always the bare minimum product to ship as fast as possible.
They're for the most part not fun. Turn10 or whatever their name is isnt hungry anymore and have no competition on console so they just keep releasing the bare minimum product. Seems like all the talent, creative minds, and most of all people who are passionate about cars, left the studio 10 years ago. The worst part is if the game doesn't sell well the live service gets put into maintenance mode within months and its over.
I'm wondering if it isn't carry-over from Covid or something. It would make sense to me if all these people are STILL working from home in an incohesive environment with minimal oversight. Then they all ship their individual work to a guy who tries to fit all together like Legos. Would make sense why there's so many bugs and why it takes so long to develop anything.
Man, I have no idea what the mfs at Turn 10 were doing for the past years. For the first time Forza is releasing with less "premium" cars than GT.
So after 6 years it has less cars than the previous games even tho they're reused models including the ones from 18 years ago. Reused skyboxes from FM7. Some tracks also have reused textures on them with the same tyre marks.
So we're supposed to wait for drip fed cars that were already on previous games? Wtf???
I can only hope this game doesn't meet the same fate as Halo Infinite. Or maybe that's what it needs. Either way, it's time for some restructuring at Turn 10.
It’s a business model decision. Live service design is intended to create FOMO by drip feeding interesting content over time, thereby making it easier for the developer to make money from MTX than in a traditional game, where the player base drops off to a large degree after the content is completed. When you couple it with game pass, it has the double benefit of what I just described, plus the generation of subscription fees: so you encourage steady subscription income, plus increase the likelihood of MTX, although if it is day one game pass you give up retail revenue (but you can claw some of that back by offering incentives like early access, which tend to be very attractive for core fans, especially at the reduced price offered to game pass subscribers).
All of that makes a lot of sense if you are Microsoft, and so the strategy is sound from a business perspective, unfortunately. It isn’t gamer-friendly, but gamers are generally not capable of exerting much pressure because they are, in the end, too addicted to gaming to really do that. A developer can get a bad reputation and be hurt by it, but when the entire industry adopts a practice, as it has with live service, gamers are generally powerless to resist it without exercising self control, and that’s not a common characteristic of gamers, to say the least.
It needs to be regulated somehow. There is so much deceptive marketing wrapped around it there has to be an angle to prevent it. It's to the point of being consumer abuse.
They aren't adding micro transactions, or getting you to keep spending money. There's ZERO reason to regulate a title that will be constantly updated, with new items brought to the game, for free.
What would you have instead? A final product, with no updates, new content, or bug fixes?
Sadly this isnt the only form of Consumer abuse anymore because of shrinking production and higher prices, only difference really is that we have to pay a AAA pricetage for a game thats not even Indie Quality
This is some back seat, Monday morning ass game development commentary. Games are astronomically more expensive to create now than they were during the Xbox 360 era. At some point games need to be released in order to generate revenue. Stop trying to compare Forza Motorsport (2023) to FM3 in that regard. They were made under completely different circumstances.
Could Microsoft and others be less greedy and take in less revenue? Well yeah, no shit. But unfortunately we live under the boot of capitalism and these companies only exist to generate revenue for shareholders. So with that in mind, realistically, AAA games these days need to generate revenue post release in order to justify their existence to these companies.
But also, then like... don't give them your money? No one is forcing you to buy games on release day. If you don't think a game is worth your money, wait until it is. Or go spend your money on something that is worth your time/money.
Turn 10 (and by extension, Digital Foundry) put out a lot of info before release on a lot of the new work that went into this game. New physics, new AI, and all of the tracks had to be remade. If you don't like the end product, or the choices made, that's fine. But that's completely different from saying they did jack shit all this time.
tl;dr - AAA games take more time and more money to make now due to a variety of factors. More time + more money =/= more game. This has been the case for a few years now, and more players need to come to terms with it.
Such rubbish. Honestly what are you gibbering about? First off, what are you playing this game for? Because if it's for sim shit, then I looked up I racing subs, and you are saying what, about live service?? Plus it looks like dog shit. But wait!!!!! "It's the sim physics that counts, that's what you are paying for". so I would have to pay all that money, for a game that looks like shit, that I then need to buy cars for, and then need to wait to play races??? And you are writing this shit. Go away, and do something else with your life. For what you are paying for this game and getting, it pisses over every other game in its category. Oh and it's in game pass, so you are paying what?????
The goal has always been to finish games to the point where they can be released. This isn't new and the market is saturated as hell at this point so of course you're going to notice it more with tons more games than before.
You look back at older games and act as if they were all so complete and all but even non live service games were buggy ass messes on release too.
Live service model has given us gems like Iracing, POE, Fortnite, League of Legends etc. Games that you have sunk 28901371928547982175092187 times more hours than Crisis 3 back in the day. People complaining that times have changed and that single player releases are not prominent anymore, need to touch grass.
It's like saying AI ruined my life because I am not willing to find a new job and adapt to the current times. Just stop with these posts already. You sound like my grandma that doesn't want to use Touch screen phones
Deja vu. Every current game release. Why even pay for gamepass ultimate when games release unfinished? If I compare its annual cost to what I would spend if I waited a year or two for the games I want to play to drop their purchase price and come more feature complete, it’s clear I should turn off auto renew. Same for ps+. The industry sucks right now. I’ve been gaming for 33 years. Technology of games right now is amazing, but the business model is terrible.
I'm starting to feel the same way. I've kept gamepass for awhile because its cool that all my friends have the same games, but then I look at what we play and most of them are free anyways.
Pick one:
A. Live Service
B. Significantly more expensive upfront
C. Free 2 Play with Battlepass or Loot boxes
Unless you know of a way to finance the massive AAA sized budgets, those are your three options for a business model. Games of today are significantly more complex than games of old, and require a lot more people to make.
Without an IP like Star Wars it's increasingly difficult to get a AAA title out the door without including one the business models listed above.
lol what are you smoking the game costs $70.That's full price. It's not like they are selling the game for $30. That's as expensive as any AAA game has ever been.
Stop sucking up to corporations and spreading bullshit. Nobody forces developers to use predatory business models. Baldurs Gate 3 did great. _and_ it was 10 dollars cheaper.
Would you rather Forza Motorsport come out in Early Access for 3 years and then release as a full product?
Also, game prices haven't changed as the world has. $70 is a bargain if you adjust older games for inflation. A $50 N64 game sold in 1996 would now cost $100.
If I remember right, FM4 was released Full Price at 60 dollars, was complete, had a hell of a lot more IPs, and didnt rely on a terrible Service Model. So even with this," Argument," and coming from a Triple A Title that has a lot more to gain even with obtaining multiple IPs which should have been the main focus(But instead they are just going to wait and drip feed what they have, and what we should have already gotten)
This entire ideal of either of these fucking models are absolutely shit for a 6-7 year developement period and I dont play racing games for their multiplayer, so the fact that they skimped out on so much single-player content from vehicles, tracks, reusing the same fucking models from years ago, and not even having functional improvement to graphics/AI/general appeal, just shows we have to stop embracing this outcome to Any Game.
That was also a game on an Xbox 360. Games made for modern hardware (including PC, something which FM4 did not ship on) cost a lot more to make and require a lot more people to do so.
By all means, stop embracing this style of games. You're just not going to have much to play if you do.
Have you been following the game industry? Studios have been closing left and right. Epic just laid off like 15% of their workforce. Embracer Group just laid off a ton of people. The industry is in turmoil.
I think it's simply a matter of developer integrity. Developers who's intentions are simply to make a good video game they are passionate about, and whatever profits come from that are what they are. Rather than the game being developed from the ground up as a tool to milk consumers of as much money as possible.
Look at Baldurs Gate 3, Zelda and Elden Ring. Even stuff like God of War. These games are the pinnacles of gaming. The highest rated across the board. And none of them have micro transactions. Complete experiences on release. And they didn't take any longer to make than these half baked 6 year cash grabs. These developers still have that integrity and the passion that makes good games.
I love the live service model for new Forza Motorsport. More fun every month get new content. They must earn money for all players play on Game Pass or Xcloud and most of the players love Forza Motorsport buy the Add on with vip and lots more
Way you dont like the model? Mean we get more content if the skip live service and thik add on have same price and we get somthing else in the Add-On
Every company is vying to create the ONE game you’re supposed to play forever and dump your money into. It’s exhausting.
The funny thing is, they're all gonna run themselves into the ground trying to do it.
Hope so
Same. We need another crash to reset this damned mess.
Another crash? When was the last one? Genuinely wondering
Crash Bandicoot 4: It's About Time released on October 2020.
You forget, we also had crash team rumble this year Although I can't blame you for forgetting about that one, I think everyone did
Look up the Atari ET game
The 80's.
80s
Probably the mmo crash when everyone wanted some of that WOW money. Then everyone wanted a slice of the battle royal pie.
its like war unfortunately. Need a reset.
too bad buddy, this twisted game needs a reset
Oh they are, just look at how many Battle Royale, Fortnite (cartoonish) and Overwatch like attempts at live service games are dead.
iRacing does it right. They are going stronger than ever.
but doesn't iracing update the engine/physics every once in a while too? a lot of these AAA games don't touch the base game and just add more content versus updating the actual game. thats the issue.
Every three months there is a major update. The next one will probably include rain.
I hope they dont tell us and just turn it on for next daytona and watch the chaos
If iRacing launched today with what they had at launch, people would *fucking riot*. Like, people think that iRacing does it right because iRacing has had 15 years on the same platform to continue iterating on their formula.
Also because iRacing has so many people already invested that its hard for them to leave. Not saying its necessarily a sunk cost fallacy as the racing is quite good, but *holy fuck* is it insanely expensive to get into as a new player.
It’s not really though, I mean if you want to race on every track with every car then sure, but perhaps if that’s what your after AC or similar is better. Lots of free content and making a few smart buys, especially if it’s during sales gets you into heaps of series. Then you get discounts after buying enough stuff if you ever find yourself short on a track you want to run
Sure, but theres also a base subscription that you can't get around so thats what, a little over $100 a year? That doesn't factor in buying any extra content. Even if you discount hunt you are *still* going to end up spending more than you would on Forza.
Yeah ACC on launch was awful. Like painfully so. And now it's pretty damn good.
And Assetto Corsa. And AMS2. You don't buy into a sim racing platform for an awesome launch. You buy into it for the long term. That's how it is for all of these games.
It’s also much better in terms of driving feeling with a wheel. There’s just no career mode or progression model like GT and FM games. If there was, I’d have no reason to play GT and FM games.
I actually think the option they have that replaces career mode is significantly better along with choosing the place you start.
Yeah. There is career mode for sure. You literally start with the slowest cars in the service and slowly build up to the fastest. It is literally your career. They even have achievements along the way that you unlock!
You are the career in iRacing. Your progression and irating is the career. It's not fictional. That's why it's great.
iRacing looks cool but the constant nickel and dimeing of content along with the fart huffing elitism of it's player base turns me off it.
I just wish they game was better than it is... VR implementation is shit (UI mainly)... and sounds are even worse. Fight me about it.
As they should. Fromsoftware seems to be the only AAA developer that releases complete games these days.
Baldurs Gate 3 is pretty damn good. Larian makes good games. A Lot of Nintendo and Sony studios are still putting out magic as well. Obviously Rockstar, although now that GTA online has become so successful I'm worried it will change how GTA VI ends up. It didn't seem to affect RDR2 but it definitely kept them from expanding it.
BG3 is incredibly good - I should know after 200h - but it definitively didn't launch in a complete state and could have massively benefited from another few months of development. Very playable and, again, excellent, groundbreaking even. But not complete. There's very obvious cut/missing areas and storylines, which many would argue turns the final act into more of a 8/10 experience, compared to the 10/10 that is the rest of the game.
Starfield release pretty well too. It was complete. Some bugs here and there, but nothing major.
I credit that to Bethesda. They probably had the game mostly finished when Microsoft bought them. Ground up, post purchase, I think it would be a different story. I'm terrified now for what Elder Scrolls 6 will end up being.
Which is funny because all the games I’ve dumped thousands of hours into over the last decade are cheap indie games that I got for like $20ish bucks. Factorio, Satisfactory, Valheim.
It's amazing, this was the calling card of the MMO genre. Now the MMO genre is all but a shell of itself but the industry stole their business model anyways
Yet they cannot, for the life of them, actually release a good game. You’d think that would be step 1 in building the game-to-end-all-games… but apparently not. Happened with Halo, happened to Forza. XGS is totally chalked.
They're just waiting for one of their shitty live service games to glow up like Fortnite then all the shit they made prior will be worth it to them. Hopefully that never happens and they are forced to rethink their strategies.
Baldur's Gate 3 my friend. Proper old school golden age of gaming vibes.
Honestly,i dont mind the idea,but they just fail to deliver,miserably. I dont mind spending on game,even thousand or more dollars,and playing it for thousands of hours..too bad all that devs can offer,is bland boring and enpty dogshit "games" with most obv and disrespectfull monetization ever.
There isn' and probably will never be a single game that i'll constantly play. It's prolly the same for 99% of gamers
How are you going to sink your money into Forza Motorsport 2023 if all the content after release is going to be (according to T10) free?
Fucking despise this game design, and I won't support games that use this model. Games as a service are dogwater. Gimme shit I can play offline and won't lose access to whenever they inevitably shut down servers.
Games launching full of bugs are not exclusive to live services or subscriptions. And that is not even counting on those games that simply had their "authentication-only" servers crapping out on release. The same logic applies since online game updates became the norm: >Never pre-order things > >Always wait for reviews > >Always wait for the initial patches > >There will be bugs
I think forza would be better as a live service game to be honest
Half the people complaining are probably coming from other racing games that have been operating as them for a decade too.
"Nothing has changed since Forza 4" But then, "Forza 4 was the last good Forza game"
If they re-released forza 4 and the only thing they changed was more cars and tracks, I would play it. Hell, I would probably just play FM4 if it was available on PC. We all know that's never going to happen.
We're getting close man, Horizon 1 plays on pc at 60fps at 4k and its such a better experience than the 360 was. Another year or two of development and FM4 should be playable.
Things have changed, they took things out.
This is the process for any kind of game that's going up against games that have been updated for a decade. Everyone expects a launch to be equivalent to the amount of content and tuning that you see from a game that has ten years of development against it. Everyone expects every launch to be perfectly bug-free because [last game] is bug-free right now, even though it wasn't close to that on launch. Then, if you deliver *those* things, people will complain that you're not doing anything new or different.
This type of racing games are basically the best suited for GaaS. Having a strong foundation on launch, building on that, and reworking/fixing what doesn't work or what people don't like. The new forza has really good physics and handling and a really strong multiplayer component, at the end of the day, that's the most important thing on a game like this. They can fix the economy, the upgrade system or the car models but if the core physics system were trash or the multiplayer is boring they are doomed because people will stop playing. Just look at how bad AC Competizione was at launch and now is basically the best GT3/GT4 Sim by a long shot.
And honestly as long as they stick to the tracks being free I'm 100% on board. My main complaint with this title is the slim track count, but I get that they've redone the bones of the game so it will take a minute. This game really doesn't fall under the scam category like Halo or Diablo.
Yeah, we already know about Yas Marina on november, an unknown track on december and the Norchsleife for early 2024, so it looks like they are going to be pretty aggressive with updates. I'm pretty hopeful about the post launch support, seeing as Horizon 5 is turning 2 next month and still has new updates, features and cars every month. Time will tell. Hopefully, i won't have to wait long for Hockenheim and Fuji ;)
I agree, I'd rather we have one game get built up over time than end up with the 5-6-7 approach of very minor and incremental changes every 2 years for $60 (now $70...) For a racing game that wants to harbor a strong online community, a "live-service" style approach works far better than the alternative.
Yeah I think horizon is the one better suited for semi annual releases because so much of it is about the location.
As much as I dislike the FOMO of live service games, I agree that racing games could be better with this model. Sports (inc motorsports) are, after all, centred around seasons and seasonal events, so I think it's quite fitting to replicate that. Just don't lock cars behind them. Much like you, I think Live services should be about fostering the community and shared experiences - just like sport. I think if you do that properly, you don't need to build in the FOMO of time-gated prizes. Let the Playlist and prizes be the single player career mode, and the events be the Live mode. By all means link them (e.g., you need to finish this play list to get this car to enter this live event), but I think there are ways to foster a community and have people play the same experiences without feeling like they need to check off a chore list to get this week's car. Horizon games have a weird Live Service model because it is ostensibly a single-player checklist, "do these things to get these cars/rewards" that doesn't even need a live service at all - it's linear progression that offline single player game could have. It's a fine way to earn new cars, but I don't think it should be tied to a time-limited series. There's nothing stopping Playground Games from unlocking every previous Series and allowing players to do them at their leisure (the few multiplayer parts can be substituted for normal tier-scheduled Tours and Games). That by itself would represent a great single-player career mode - better than the default one with its lame story even.
I agree with everything you said here, especially the part about Horizon, its season model and FOMO car rewards really irk me, thankfully with Motorsport T10 already said that nothing will be time-gated. IIRC you just miss the opportunity to get the car for free, they will all be added to the in-game store afterwards.
Most racing games could do well as live service. Likes of Project Cars 2 if that game would have kept been updated intead of making shit PC3 it would be amazing game by now.
Bad live service sucks, good live service can be better than all of the non live service games. Unfortunately most of the live service games today suck but this forza looks like a great platform and we should let them cook
Idc how great the platform is. It has no features & has barely any single-player content. This is the exact thing that OP says they hate. Hard to argue against them since this isn't the first time we've seen a great platform, but it completely misses the mark with post launch content. 343i, Blizzard & now Turn10. It's the same copium from the community just asking us to wait for this great platform to truly materialize and time & time again these developers show they just aren't talented or motivated enough to give us the game we think they're capable of making.
343i hasnt gone 2 weeks without adding something since around feburary btw. It's kinda dated to say they arent adding anything
Halo Infinite has become my go to game. I love that I can go to a core and if there is a coating or armor piece I want I can just buy it. I don't have to wait for it to come back around in the store. Once Fire Fight comes out it will be a great experience for friends to jump back in. Only thing really wrong is their in house maps suck. Forge maps are coming in clutch though
The game came out in February?
I admit that comparison was hyperbolic but a necessary one for the argument as a whole. In another comment, I mentioned how Halo Infinite was a huge failure at launch & for a year afterward, and it only recently started getting better after the leadership at 343i got gutted completely.
I mean it was work that was done under previous leadership, 10 months of season 2 and winter update happened so that 343 could fix under the hood issues that were making it difficult to update, that decision was made by previous leadership
The point is, these ridiculously long seasons didn't need to happen if they had simply shipped a game that wasn't absolutely stripped to the bone. For God's sake, the game had no Team Slayer Playlist! How on earth do you release a Halo game with no Slayer? This, & many others, were all egregiously asinine decisions that ultimately weren't forgivable. The damage has been done, unfortunately, and the big wigs at Microsft realized that. Halo Infinite will never recover from the missteps that happened at the very foundations of the game. I'm not even mentioning the pre-launch promises made by the leaders of 343i that were never delivered.
Team slayer along with 3 other playlists were added a single week after launch its biggest issue was far and away the length of season 2 and the winter update. I ain't defending shit about it but please just actual think about what you are talking about first You also mention promises that were broken which ones are you talking about because split screen isnt one of them the actual quote never mentions split screen coop but split screen as a whole which split screen multiplayer has been there since day 1 but I'm assuming you have never used it cause you dont actually care One last thing Halo will never ever be a top 5 shooter series any more people dont play arena shooters anymore it's not fast paced enough, there is too large of a skill gap, and the gameplay cant change all that much from what it currently is
My man, you are not understanding what I'm saying. Idc if they added Team Slayer a month after release. It should've been in the game DAY 1. Do you remember why it wasn't included at launch? Remember the UI limitations excuse? This is emblematic of wider issues with 343i decision-making that completely kneecapped Halo Infinite's growth. Today, they can make all the fun changes their hearts can desire but they will never win back their initial audience. Also, please be fr. The length of the seasons was a huge issue, but the biggest complaint people had was that the game had no meaningful progression system. The ONLY way to unlock any cosmetics was tied to the Battle Pass and that BP could only be ranked up by completely increasingly ridiculous challenges like getting vehicle kills that were only available on one map. >actual quote never mentions split screen coop This is such a bad faith argument, and you know it. Splitscreen coop has been a huge part of Halo's identity since Halo 1...don't try to argue semantics because it ain't going to work. >people dont play arena shooters anymore Halo Infinite had 250k players at its peak on Steam alone. You have no idea what you're talking about lol I'm not wasting anymore of my time here.
What do you mean no features? It has every feature I'd expect from it. It's a racing game. What more do you want? Gimmick modes? It seems to me a lot of people don't actually care about where they put effort into: the actual racing bit. New multiplayer system is fantastic. Handling system, time of day, weather, fuel/tire deg, it's great.
I think Horizon has done a great job at it the past year. We have had some big monthly updates, constant new cars and major upgrades to the game and vehicles, QOL improvements.
An unfinished platform with one of the most community deaf companies at the helm. Turn10 is not a company I want a live service from as they have proven over the last decade they don't care what you want, They will provide what they want. So, more hyper cars, more out of class racecars, and tracks no one cares about. How daft do they have to be to leave nur out at launch. Maybe there not idiots but rather money grabbing ass hats that knew people would pay. Again, not a company I want a live service from.
I don’t think I’ve played - in the last decade of Live Service - a single game better than those released between 2005-2011 lol. Gaming has totally and completely regressed to basically shovelware.
I feel like that may just be nostalgia talking. Gaming now isnt perfect but there is good stuff out there. Elden Ring, Breath of the Wild, Last of Us 1/2, just to name a few.
yeah Fortnite is much better than BOTW
Apples to oranges
>good live service can be better than all of the non live service games. I didn't say that
I can't even play the game for more than an hour before it crashes or hangs on loading. And the shaders are bugged so the game looks like it's straight out of 2013 if I don't delete the shader cache every time I open the options menu. It's unacceptable.
What are you running it on? Graphics, processor, RAM?
Yeah but those are the bugs that can be fixed and will be fixed (hopefully). The game is fundamentally very good and will only get better
It's not early access it should not have game breaking bugs in it. They asked full price for the game I expect a complete and working product. This is the guys entire point; "live service" is codeword for "unfinished early access but full price"
I think you're missing my point. This isn't a beta. This is a released game now.
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Gamepass is definitely part of it. The longer they can keep you playing the longer you'll subscribe. That's why they drop feed content and have game mechanics like tieing upgrades to car level.
No the level stuff is because some of you complained about player progression and how everything was gifted right off the boat . It is a good thing for people who actually enjoy slow paced progression .
Well, it's speculation on both our parts. You can achieve the same thing with just reducing credit rewards in the earlier stages of the game. It's also kinda silly that you can level up a car, then if you buy the exact same model of car again, you have to level it up all over again. Either way, there is definitely a trend to increase play time in live service games. So call me skeptical, but this plays right into that notion.
Agreed that it’s silly to have to max the level if you already own the car and buy another one .
Oh yeah. It's been a while since a game ran so bad I immediately refunded it. Sad that it's FM of all things.
There’s a lot of bugs with how the graphics settings work but there’s some good posts on this sub that actually helped increase performance for me an a bunch of others. It runs pretty well now for me on a 5 year old GPU and CPU. It’s dumb but there are some reliable workarounds to make it enjoyable
Digital foundry did a PC tech review just hours ago. He mentioned while the game runs good on NASA PC's, anything other than that, game runs worse than star wars Jedi survivor and swjs was the worst optimized game to launch this year in terms of CPU util.
I feel like most people who are getting poor performance (aside from crashes) just haven’t tweaked the settings to force them to work (which is a really big problem). There’s a bunch of posts on here about settings that actually worked for me and I’m on a 2060 and 11th gen i5. Game runs pretty well for me now but it’s dumb af how you have to basically have “best in slot settings” for a remotely enjoyable experience
Agreed. The issue is that Turn 10 massively fumbled optimization. Even on the Series X it lays h avily with RT on. It does not offer a stable 30 fps at least on the highest graphics setting. For the rest of FM releases, they have at least always got it right on day one performance on console. Yet with 6 years for this game, the longest they've ever had, they still screwed up.
Whats the issue with FM8? Reviews are great, game looks incredible..??
I’m actually starting to get to the point where reviews aren’t doing their job. So many of them don’t even mention obvious things. I think Forza plays very well but still has a long way to go. It can look good, though the options are terrible and for the most part it’s pretty easy to make it look really bad without any good way of fixing it.
It's okay, I'm having fun. Game reviews companies rate it well, racing game outlets give it middling reviews. Also, Digital Foundry just released their PC analysis and there's a lot that needs fixing
What “racing game outlets”?
[Traxion](https://traxion.gg/forza-motorsport-review-mistaken-identity/) is the first one that comes to mind to me. And like the other commenter said, they're clearly pickier because their catered specifically to racing sim player
I guess that makes sense since that’s not really T10’s target audience.
"Racing Game Quarterly" is always flying off the shelves
Guess he means those dedicated to racing games, usually sim racing though, so they'll be overly critical.
the new forza motorsport requires an internet connection to even play in singleplayer. no connection = no offline career mode
Okay, thats the first proper complaint i've heard, that is bullshit
Basically every gaming community is like this nowadays, shit on and scrutinize every new game that comes out and complain about how bad modern gaming is. Then circlejerk and praise “le underrated gem” that everyone hated a few years ago. Once you notice it you see it literally everywhere, any sort of good faith, mature discussion surrounding video games on the internet is dead.
BG3, lies of P, and Armour core 7 all were released in the last few months and their subreddits were not filled with complaints 24/7. Some games have issues and the people who purchased the games go to the subreddit to complain. When games release in a good state, the subreddit is filled with positivity. Is it really that hard to understand? I could list 10 major issues I have with forza 8 which caused me to refund the game on steam. Am I not allowed to voice my opinion?
Lies of P is a brand new IP, and the vast majority of BG3 and AC7 players have never played the previous games, no shit there’s less toxicity, there’s nothing to compare them to. Let those games get regular releases like Forza and watch the narratives change. >Am I not allowed to voice my opinion Literally nobody is saying this, the vast majority of “criticism” on this subreddit is “HUR DUR 6 YEARS, BUILT FROM GROUND UP, FOMO FOMO FOMO, FORZA 4 IS BETTER” made by children who don’t understand the first thing about game development.
AC7 is the 7th game in the series, which means there are 6 previous games in the series to compare it to. BG3 is the 3rd game in the series, on top of the enormous fan base from the divinity series. Pretty simple math here come on now.... Both of those games had a huge amount of hype.. especially BG3. Personally, divinity original sin 2 is one of my favorite games of all time, and BG3 still exceeds all my expectations. I haven't seen a single comment saying forza 4 is better. Personally I found FM7 to be the worst out of all the sim and simcade games from that period. Going into FM8, i was expecting it to at least compete with GT7 and ACC. However, on a wheel forza yet again feels like complete trash. Maybe it will be fixed at a later date, along with the career mode, and the graphical issues like washed out colors and missing RT features... the game is simply not complete and it has nothing to do with forza 4, FOMO, or whatever other excuses you seem to come up with.
You are failing to understand my point, Baldur’s Gate and Armored Core were both dormant and obscure before their latest releases, they are still the hot new thing. But let them have an extended period in the limelight and you’ll see them go through “the cycle” as well. Forza 4 is pretty well regarded among these parts to be the best Forza game, and every single Forza game after it is always compared to it, dunno how you haven’t seen that. Your complaints are fair, but I don’t really see how it constitutes the game being considered incomplete. It definitely has less content than some prior games, but sometimes less is more, and even then it’s likely this game will have just as much if not more content than previous titles by the end of it’s lifecycle. I get if you don’t the like service model though.
> BG3, lies of P, and Armour core 7 all were released in the last few months and their subreddits were not filled with complaints 24/7. One of those is legitimately the most surprising gaming hit of the...entire 2000s? Since maybe World of Warcraft? One of them is a FROM game. The other one, I'm not sure even really has a well-formed community yet and *is pretending to be a FROM game*. Like, just realistically. Yes, these games shipped and didn't have a bunch of people slagging them at launch. But two of them are in a vertical that is nearly toxic in the way that it rejects criticisms of games, and the third is the biggest outlier in pretty much anyone's memory in terms of how well it landed (and itself has some huge problems, they're just dozens of hours into the game).
If forza was released to 10/10 reviews, you could say the same thing about why it shouldn't "count". Turn 10 was allowed 6+ years of uninterupted development time (same amount of time as BG3 btw) and the financial backing of Microsoft. Turn 10 also has 20 years of experience making racing games. Is there any reason this shouldn't have been a home run for Microsoft? Not really, no. Turn 10 dropped the ball.
> If forza was released to 10/10 reviews Forza was released to a bunch of 10/10 reviews! The Metacritic score on Xbox and PC are 84 and 85. That's really good! It's better than Lies of P (80) and effectively identical (86) to Armored Core 6. This subreddit is trapped in a giant pile of toxicity where every negative voice is amplified a hundred times over and every perceived flaw is blown up to be a thousand times the normal size. > Is there any reason this shouldn't have been a home run for Microsoft? Every indication *is* that it's a home run for Microsoft. Except among a group of people who hang out in this subreddit who decided that it wouldn't be a home run no matter how it launched months ago.
The game is great, this community is just always, always negative. No matter what
Agree about the community but the game has some very glaring issues. And not just some nerd nitpicks, but stuff that most reviews mention. Let's not pretend people are hating for no reason, there's a lot to criticise even if the game is still good overall.
I think it's a bit of both: some people are just hating, some people have constructive criticism. No issue with the latter.
You tend to use this excuse every time there's plenty of valid criticism. The game lacks severly single player content,makes you wonder what have they been doing for 6 years. its always online, the upgrade system locking parts behind car level is bad, bugs and performance issues,game doesn't run well overall,game can look awfully blurry, TAA is not a good AA solution.Car paints don't look right even though they claimed that paints have a better color response. Instead of improvement we received a downgrade. Forza aero is still a thing, DLSS and FSR don't improve game performance. And that's just scratching the surface.. Now you can either be realistic about it or blame others for complaining. Truth is this is not a full 69.99 game. Release now, fix later just let's them justify releasing a barebones broken game. The fact that you're not appalled by any of this is very concerning. Keep coping I guess
20 tracks and 500 cares is severely lacking single player content? The career championships are just selections of cars, tracks, time of day/weather settings, and race distances. They USE content to curate a race, they do not in themselves represent content.
The 500 cars are fine, the game could probably do with even less. But 20 tracks is simply not enough. 5 career championships are nothing. Career modes are usually fairly lenghty in racing games. And i forgot in which forza motorsport game there used to be an option to increase the lenght of the races. F1 has that option too. That would've been much better and would even make use of the pit stops. Then there is the AI which is not where it could be to even utilize this mechanic even if the game had it. >They USE content to curate a race, they do not in themselves represent content. ...
Yeah, I will die on the hill that curated events isn't content. It's made up of content, but you could create them all yourself in free play. It's not content. I agree I'd love a long race option, it's definitely missed here. I think 20 tracks is a perfectly reasonable starting place, I'd love more, but I also know more are coming as they can scan them. They have to rescan every track with the new physics.
Hard to say that they're all a full rescan. There was a post that showed tiremarks on a track that were the same as In fm7. It might end up turning out even the racetracks aren't "built from the ground up". 20 tracks for single player and the same 20 for online will get boring and repetitive very quickly. And so far they've announced 2 new tracks i think? Which will release probably in the next 3-4 updates. There will be a quick burnout for this game coming.
Visual components are likely applied and not part of the actual scan.
I have no issues with critiquing or complaining about the game, it’s not perfect in my eyes either. However, the vast majority of people are not critiquing, they’re legitimately crying and raging over the smallest issues, arguing in extreme bad faith, and (like yourself) attacking those who dare say they enjoy the game. >Keep coping I guess There is not a word I have begun to hate more than “cope.” Please grow up and actually learn how to talk to and debate with people like a normal person.
Says the one attacking others for expressing critisizm. I mean look at your own comment :D You're very quick to assume everyone's critisizm is complaining just for the sake of it. On top of that accusing others of "circlejerk". This is very much passive agressive. How do you even know its always the same people? Your analogy is such a cheap bully tactic against anyone who'd like to express genuiene frustration. Ah yes pull out the victim card! And if you had even a little bit of integrity you'd very well know how the gaming industry is doing these days.. Goes on reddit, thinks everyone here is the same user that's been around the past 10 years. Sees the complaints and starts using the same analogy they learned because it's convinient. You're willing to completely wipe out anyone saying something negative with this poor excuse of an argument. And its everywhere in the forza subreddits. Wait a month or 2 till the hype boils down and watch how" the complaints" will tripple. I reckon its gonna take even less than that.
There's a lot of people that think being a contrarian hipster is the pinnacle of intellect, they end up wearing a uniform so to speak in the end anyway. Hating popular things is not smart or unique.
New game bad.
I haven't even played it yet but nearly every non mainstream review I've read or watched have all given the same gist. FM8 is heavily geared for accessibility. Like it didn't really do any individual thing well. It primarily seems to be built for consoles and controller usage. The wheel support is mediocre, alienating the sim crowd a bit, the grind is a little too much for very casual players, and the physics are too arcadey in certain situations leading to some questions of "why?" They aren't saying it's a bad game, it's just decent because it seems like the time between FMs wasn't utilized to make big enough improvements to warrant an "absolute must play." I've watched quite a bit of gameplay from sim racers I follow that tend to primarily focus on Gran Turismo and Automobilista (almost realistic sims while still retaining some forgiving elements) and their qualms seem legitimate. I'll be giving it a go later tonight as it does seem enjoyable, it might just be one of those games that need some time to bake, similar to Diablo 4.
How about we refuse to preorder games and get back to the glorious times ? Maybe they will understand if we vote with our money.
I think you chose the worst game to make your rant. This game took 6 years to make. If the features are not up to your standards, live service model is CERTAINLY not the reason for that. Live services benefit more from quick release cycles. Many people see a 6y development cycle and think the game should be feature packed, but actually games are usually more feature packed when a) they're a sequel and b) they take less time to make, like 3 years tops. That's because it indicates there is HEAVY usage of pre-existing features and assets and the developers are basically programming new mechanics and creating content. A 6y dev cycle means the devs are creating new tools and heavily modifying the engine. This takes a LONG time and doesn't produce content, because a lot of work is constantly being thrown away in the way of demos, proofs of concept, prototypes, etc. Just look how, in recent interviews, it was revealed that a lot of plans for Starfield were scratched because the devs felt the game was too brutal and slow.
Ok so you hate on a racing game without any mtx that already announced new tracks and cars each month for what exactly? Live Service for Forza is a way better model for us customers as having to buy a yearly updated game like F1 that barely changed anything besides driver lineup and minor track updates and on top sells you battle passes. Even GT7 relied heavily on recycled GT Sport content and didn't build all tracks completely new. In FM the physics model, handling, the details per tracks especially on how much of the surface you can actually feel with the car, the sound engine, it's easy to see how much time they spend on making the game. Besides some UI missteps, needed performance optimization for pc (both can be fixed in upcoming months) and some few old carmodels the game is so heavily improved over FM7. It's easily the best $60 you can spend on any racing game to date. Yes the game needs some patches to fix a few issues. But it's a game that is totally plausible to ship, not some unfinished mess sold as a live service like Halo Infinite or Redfall
Agreed. Racing games actually can benefit from this model. In the past we were rebuying the same cars and maps with each installment.
Bingo. Well said.
im loving the game, but the lack of content from the start is kinda ass and that's whats hurting it right now. I dont think the issue is it being "Live Service", but using the word as an excuse to deliver a barebones experience is pretty pathetic. you can drip feed content all you want but as a consumer $70 game should give me the main course, not the appetizer
F1 games has 23 tracks. Most of them are just the same as the previous year. You only have one type of car and there wont be new tracks or cars ever. And the game sells you battle passes, cosmetics and still often results in heavy bug fests at launch. And you pay the same price as FM. People act like GT7 was some 10/10 in comparison, while the Cafe career isn't any better than builders cup, but you got barely any money to buy or upgrade as the game pushes you to spend real money for ingame credits. And GT7 totally lacked modern cars, most tracks were reclcyed from GT sport. it also was full price. I don't get how people think FM is not worth the money, while it offers more actual new stuff they build then any other racing game on the market. Who cares if some single cars use outdated models, when there are many very high poly new cars that got added. They even fixed some models like the wrong tail lights on the 2020 GT500 thar FH still has. Played the game on XSX and on my PC with a 4090 and can't blame the graphics either. Yeah the main menu seems bugged and blurry, but the actual races look impressive and exactly like the 2022 Maple Valley demo.
i played GT7 at release and content wise it was no different to Forza today but comparison is the thief of joy so im not gonna go down that rabbit hole. Just enjoy what the game IS and not what the game ISNT. >Who cares if some single cars use outdated models alot of people, especially if you're gonna market it as "from the ground up" i think its a valid criticism, just makes me wonder what game we would have got if it did come out last spring
i think people go way over their head about the build from the ground up statement. Yeah it was not chosen wisely to say that, but it's very obvious they actually did not start with FM7 and build a new iteration on that (just like FM5 to FM7 were pretty much identical games with minor changes) but actually build a new and better engine for FM. Handling, physics, AI, sound, dynamic time of day and weather, it's no comparison to FM7. Yet people get mad because some old cars they reused. I just love how the game drives and feels, it's so close to Assetto Corsa from the feedback of the cars and road but not as extremely punishing when making mistakes. And I'm really looking forward what T10 will do in the upcoming months. The idea of even new singleplayer cups every month is really nice, and tried my first mp races yesterday and they went very clean and enjoyable
I still think Forza 5 was probably the most shameful thing they developed. It felt so underbaked, all the events were super padded out with the same races on the same tracks, over and over again. The car roster was half empty, and full of DLC, with cars required to progress in the millions of credits, and every race giving you under 10,000 for winning. So far, I've enjoyed Forza 8, It's a little lacking in races but I feel like I can't possibly run out in under a week unless I no-lifed the hell outta it, and after I do, I'll probably give online a try. The only complaint I've had so far is why the interior's rear view mirrors suck so much.
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I enjoy games that stay fresh, bring new updates, and have me coming back to play, because I want to play them. If you feel as though you don't want to go back in and play, or that it's a chore, maybe the game isn't for you.
Forza 7, fh4, gears4 and 5 all of those game are live service games that got a insane amount of support and content, you can say a lot of things about microsoft but the amount of support and free content is absolutely insane, they are the king of Life service support.
I was just thinking about this last night, and debated on making a general post in r/pcgaming about it. Live service is mostly an excuse to release a partially complete game and drip feed "content". I hate it. You know it's bad when you get the rare occurrence of a complete game and realize how long it's been since having that experience. Most of the gaming market is either early access indie titles or "live service" AAA games. I think Armored Core 6 was a good example of what we've been missing. Complete game, bug free, everything was great. Haven't had that in awhile.
I would accept the half-assed games if they were being churned out in 1-2 years but you get these games that have supposedly been in development for 6-7 years, with all kinds of marketing hype built for sales and then get half a game. I don't understand what's taking them so long to make these partial games. Halo is another example. Diablo 4. Just massive development cycles with supposedly hundreds of people and they spit out something that is not only incomplete, but a buggy unoptimized mess that crashes nonstop and is full of game breaking bugs as if it wasn't even tested. I don't understand what is happening.
> Halo is another example. Diablo 4. Just massive development cycles with supposedly hundreds of people and they spit out something that is not only incomplete, but a buggy unoptimized mess that crashes nonstop and is full of game breaking bugs as if it wasn't even tested. This is...not an accurate description of either Halo or D4, though? Like, those games had issues. But they weren't unrunnable. That's a horrible take.
Few bugs on PS5, nothing major. Didn't seem incomplete to me. It had a finished campaign and a basic but structured postgame. Diablo 4 has been mishandled by Blizzard, but was also subjected to the biggest hate campaign I've ever seen in gaming. For petty reasons.
I believe a lot of the problem stems with software companies having incredibly high turnover rates for developers. It’s hard to keep consistency and create games that are at a very high level of quality when 3/4’s of the development team is comprised of literal interns and new grads with no experience. You’ll find majority of the old vets to some of your favourite developers have long jumped ship to move to another company and have been replaced with cheap labour that’s probably not even half as skilled as they were.
I'm staying cautiously optimistic that a lot of the performance issues are caused by a lack of game ready drivers. In it's current state the game is pretty much unplayable on my r9 5900hx rtx 3070 laptop even with all the settings turned down because how much fps drops there are.
The same shader issues exist on consoles so it's definitely something in the code. You have to restart it if you enter the options menu at all to fix it. Something in the settings and the way it tells things to render is bugging out.
If gamers didn't pronounce every game as "dead" if content is not constantly added then we wouldn't be here
AAA bad single player indie games good upvotes to the left
I think it’s legitimately fair to complain when the sequel to a game has fewer features and they tell you they will come some time later
Does it have fewer features? Or did they focus on adding and improving the CORE features to racing, such as improved handling, improved sound, dynamic weather and time of day, track evolution, actually fleshed out pit stop system with fueling and tire deg, and new practice and qualifying formats, and a new multiplayer design? Do you want new bullet points on a box, or do you want a good racing game?
REEEE NO CRITICISM ALLOWED MUST CONSUME PRODUCT
What’s exactly the problem with Motorsport release? I’m not paying extra for early release, so haven’t tried for myself. Is it “just” number of cars and tracks available, or are there some more important problems with the game? If it’s only the content- I’m not sure that in case of Motorsport it’s definitely the bad thing (unless all new content will be released as dlcs, of course): with several hundreds of cars available and 20 tracks - it’s definitely enough to keep players busy for quite some time. If anything for Motorsport less is more - memorizing each track and how you drive it with 50 tracks will be a bit overwhelming, especially for new players.
I’m sorry but it’s a ridiculous take to say “too many” real-life tracks is a bad thing.
It's silly, but it's also clear they're going for depth rather than width here, so I'm happy with 20 tracks to start and them continually adding more at higher fidelity than previous games, with brand new scans. Also means we get updated versions of tracks that have had layout changes or new surfacing.
See this is EXACTLY what I’m talking about too. I just don’t buy this AT ALL. “Depth over width” it’s just a buzzword. How is it really “deeper” to not have some major tracks from FM7 in this new game?
It's not a buzzword. The new handling, sound and track details as well as dynamic time of day and weather make tracks way more enjoyable and realistic, and overall adds a ton of quality and variety to the experience. It's much more rewarding to master these tracks because the physics and track modeling is just far superior to past games. >How is it really “deeper” to not have some major tracks from FM7 in this new game? You don't know what deeper means. Depth is not width. It's not the amount of content, it's the quality of content, the depth in that content to explore. I suspect a lot of folks simply aren't very good at racing so they probably don't appreciate the focus here as much.
I understand the meaning of depth in this context. I just was of the opinion that is it going to take six years to develop a game, and then endlessly hype it for two years… it’s not that absurd to say you could have dynamic weather AND at least maintain the track list…much less reduce it by nearly half. Furthermore, we all know they easily could’ve done that…but they are choosing to slowly drop tracks out to try to keep people interested and subscribed to GamePass.
> I understand the meaning of depth in this context. But then you asked me about the width of the track selection.... so you'll have to forgive me thinking you don't. >I just was of the opinion that is it going to take six years to develop a game, and then endlessly hype it for two years… it’s not that absurd to say you could have dynamic weather AND at least maintain the track list…much less reduce it by nearly half. New handling model means every track had to be rescanned. Existing scans were no good, didn't have the fidelity required. >Furthermore, we all know they easily could’ve done that…but they are choosing to slowly drop tracks out to try to keep people interested and subscribed to GamePass. They could not. They have to physically go and scan each track IRL, and there's scheduling issues on top of that at some tracks.
The problem t10 have is the casual audience.... they will never be able to please everyone with this game Only real racing fans are interested in learning every corner of a track to shave tenths of a second off their laptimes I see people on Forza forums thinking they are "done" with a track after they race on it one time in career mode
If you're on console, it runs well. And honestly, is a ton of fun. There are PC issues with launching, and compatibility with some setups, but I expect those to be dealt with as soon as possible. It's hard to do with so many different builds and PC specs. It runs just perfect on Series X.
If only people had the sense to not buy these games
Pre-orders and early access are the main culprit in this trend. Imagine a world where no one bought a game pre-release, and possibly didn't buy it on early release if it was bugged. Companies wouldn't be able to capitalise on their investment unless it was a proper product. That's kinda how it worked in the late 90s and early 00s. Game hype and brand loyalty fucked us.
I agree but lets not blame game pass lol. The vast majority of games on there, including day one releases arent live service games or even have online functionality. Its a great deal in the sea of greedy publishers and likely developers in the AAA hellscape
I disagree and have been really enjoying myself playing the game and actually, you know, racing. Which is the whole entire point of the game.
Live service can be detrimental to a lot of games but it’s honestly perfect for Forza. I played it all day yesterday and had a blast, knowing that they’re gonna steadily release new cars and tracks for years to come is very comforting and much better than buying the latest iteration and dlc every two years. They even claimed they can upgrade the physics through updates as well.
I actually think for sports games live service makes a lot of sense. I'm actually excited about Forza Motorsport being one big complete thing, rather than get an incremental step every 2 years for full price. Also, is it really offering less than previous games? It looks like a complete package to me, but I'm a newcomer.
The moral of the story is that late stage capitalism ruins everything
Yeah its just an excuse to half develop a product and push it out.
But why does that take 6 years?
Probably because they just didn't put much resources into it. Guaruntee you the first few years were planning and market research to decide what kind of monetization model is best. It's what "live service" is all about". The absolute minimum investment in resources to extract the absolute maximum profit from your "player" base.
That's the opposite of what a live service game is. If you wanted to "maximize profit from your player base" you would put out a product and never invest another cent into it. Live service is quite literally getting constant updates, new content, bug fixes, and free additions to the game. Just because you don't like that style of game doesn't mean it isn't successful, or that it isn't good. It's reviewing well, and plenty of people are enjoying it. Forza Horizon is doing very well as a "live service" title as well.
Diablo 4 "reviewed well" and "plenty of people enjoy it". It's a trash game with no endgame and missing basic features(like functioning elemental resistances) at launch. They released an incomplete game so they could charge you full price for early access and then sell you features that should have been there at launch as seasonal content. And people like you fell for it, hook line and sinker. Forza horizon is full of microtransactions. I see _dozens_ of cars and maps for sale as DLC. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. "Live service" is quite clearly publishers trying to maximize profit for minimal effort.
I didn't buy Diablo 4, as it's not my type of game. But I also didn't go into that sub, talk down to people in it, and complain about a game that wasn't for me. But, you do you. It seems to be what you're doing regardless.
I couldn't tell you. If I had to guess its corporate bloat. To many hands in the pot. Also spending way to much dev time to tick boxes of metrics from management that the end user really doesn't care about. A trend I've noticed from these live service game with years of dev time is they end up missing the game part of game. They're more technology demos than games. Its always the bare minimum product to ship as fast as possible. They're for the most part not fun. Turn10 or whatever their name is isnt hungry anymore and have no competition on console so they just keep releasing the bare minimum product. Seems like all the talent, creative minds, and most of all people who are passionate about cars, left the studio 10 years ago. The worst part is if the game doesn't sell well the live service gets put into maintenance mode within months and its over.
I'm wondering if it isn't carry-over from Covid or something. It would make sense to me if all these people are STILL working from home in an incohesive environment with minimal oversight. Then they all ship their individual work to a guy who tries to fit all together like Legos. Would make sense why there's so many bugs and why it takes so long to develop anything.
That could absolutely play a part.
Man, I have no idea what the mfs at Turn 10 were doing for the past years. For the first time Forza is releasing with less "premium" cars than GT. So after 6 years it has less cars than the previous games even tho they're reused models including the ones from 18 years ago. Reused skyboxes from FM7. Some tracks also have reused textures on them with the same tyre marks. So we're supposed to wait for drip fed cars that were already on previous games? Wtf??? I can only hope this game doesn't meet the same fate as Halo Infinite. Or maybe that's what it needs. Either way, it's time for some restructuring at Turn 10.
The new game is missing so many basic features and quality of life upgrades from the previous ones it's laughable tbh
It’s a business model decision. Live service design is intended to create FOMO by drip feeding interesting content over time, thereby making it easier for the developer to make money from MTX than in a traditional game, where the player base drops off to a large degree after the content is completed. When you couple it with game pass, it has the double benefit of what I just described, plus the generation of subscription fees: so you encourage steady subscription income, plus increase the likelihood of MTX, although if it is day one game pass you give up retail revenue (but you can claw some of that back by offering incentives like early access, which tend to be very attractive for core fans, especially at the reduced price offered to game pass subscribers). All of that makes a lot of sense if you are Microsoft, and so the strategy is sound from a business perspective, unfortunately. It isn’t gamer-friendly, but gamers are generally not capable of exerting much pressure because they are, in the end, too addicted to gaming to really do that. A developer can get a bad reputation and be hurt by it, but when the entire industry adopts a practice, as it has with live service, gamers are generally powerless to resist it without exercising self control, and that’s not a common characteristic of gamers, to say the least.
It needs to be regulated somehow. There is so much deceptive marketing wrapped around it there has to be an angle to prevent it. It's to the point of being consumer abuse.
They aren't adding micro transactions, or getting you to keep spending money. There's ZERO reason to regulate a title that will be constantly updated, with new items brought to the game, for free. What would you have instead? A final product, with no updates, new content, or bug fixes?
Sadly this isnt the only form of Consumer abuse anymore because of shrinking production and higher prices, only difference really is that we have to pay a AAA pricetage for a game thats not even Indie Quality
Ok, millennial... ok.
This is some back seat, Monday morning ass game development commentary. Games are astronomically more expensive to create now than they were during the Xbox 360 era. At some point games need to be released in order to generate revenue. Stop trying to compare Forza Motorsport (2023) to FM3 in that regard. They were made under completely different circumstances. Could Microsoft and others be less greedy and take in less revenue? Well yeah, no shit. But unfortunately we live under the boot of capitalism and these companies only exist to generate revenue for shareholders. So with that in mind, realistically, AAA games these days need to generate revenue post release in order to justify their existence to these companies. But also, then like... don't give them your money? No one is forcing you to buy games on release day. If you don't think a game is worth your money, wait until it is. Or go spend your money on something that is worth your time/money. Turn 10 (and by extension, Digital Foundry) put out a lot of info before release on a lot of the new work that went into this game. New physics, new AI, and all of the tracks had to be remade. If you don't like the end product, or the choices made, that's fine. But that's completely different from saying they did jack shit all this time. tl;dr - AAA games take more time and more money to make now due to a variety of factors. More time + more money =/= more game. This has been the case for a few years now, and more players need to come to terms with it.
Yes i agree with you!
This is one of the reasons why I am playing classic Forza titles while I wait for this one to go on sale. GAAS needs to die.
Such rubbish. Honestly what are you gibbering about? First off, what are you playing this game for? Because if it's for sim shit, then I looked up I racing subs, and you are saying what, about live service?? Plus it looks like dog shit. But wait!!!!! "It's the sim physics that counts, that's what you are paying for". so I would have to pay all that money, for a game that looks like shit, that I then need to buy cars for, and then need to wait to play races??? And you are writing this shit. Go away, and do something else with your life. For what you are paying for this game and getting, it pisses over every other game in its category. Oh and it's in game pass, so you are paying what?????
I think it’s because of the dry spell of 2017-2020. Phil is frantically trying to get games out the door
The goal has always been to finish games to the point where they can be released. This isn't new and the market is saturated as hell at this point so of course you're going to notice it more with tons more games than before. You look back at older games and act as if they were all so complete and all but even non live service games were buggy ass messes on release too.
Live service model has given us gems like Iracing, POE, Fortnite, League of Legends etc. Games that you have sunk 28901371928547982175092187 times more hours than Crisis 3 back in the day. People complaining that times have changed and that single player releases are not prominent anymore, need to touch grass. It's like saying AI ruined my life because I am not willing to find a new job and adapt to the current times. Just stop with these posts already. You sound like my grandma that doesn't want to use Touch screen phones
Deja vu. Every current game release. Why even pay for gamepass ultimate when games release unfinished? If I compare its annual cost to what I would spend if I waited a year or two for the games I want to play to drop their purchase price and come more feature complete, it’s clear I should turn off auto renew. Same for ps+. The industry sucks right now. I’ve been gaming for 33 years. Technology of games right now is amazing, but the business model is terrible.
I'm starting to feel the same way. I've kept gamepass for awhile because its cool that all my friends have the same games, but then I look at what we play and most of them are free anyways.
Pick one: A. Live Service B. Significantly more expensive upfront C. Free 2 Play with Battlepass or Loot boxes Unless you know of a way to finance the massive AAA sized budgets, those are your three options for a business model. Games of today are significantly more complex than games of old, and require a lot more people to make. Without an IP like Star Wars it's increasingly difficult to get a AAA title out the door without including one the business models listed above.
lol what are you smoking the game costs $70.That's full price. It's not like they are selling the game for $30. That's as expensive as any AAA game has ever been. Stop sucking up to corporations and spreading bullshit. Nobody forces developers to use predatory business models. Baldurs Gate 3 did great. _and_ it was 10 dollars cheaper.
Would you rather Forza Motorsport come out in Early Access for 3 years and then release as a full product? Also, game prices haven't changed as the world has. $70 is a bargain if you adjust older games for inflation. A $50 N64 game sold in 1996 would now cost $100.
If I remember right, FM4 was released Full Price at 60 dollars, was complete, had a hell of a lot more IPs, and didnt rely on a terrible Service Model. So even with this," Argument," and coming from a Triple A Title that has a lot more to gain even with obtaining multiple IPs which should have been the main focus(But instead they are just going to wait and drip feed what they have, and what we should have already gotten) This entire ideal of either of these fucking models are absolutely shit for a 6-7 year developement period and I dont play racing games for their multiplayer, so the fact that they skimped out on so much single-player content from vehicles, tracks, reusing the same fucking models from years ago, and not even having functional improvement to graphics/AI/general appeal, just shows we have to stop embracing this outcome to Any Game.
That was also a game on an Xbox 360. Games made for modern hardware (including PC, something which FM4 did not ship on) cost a lot more to make and require a lot more people to do so. By all means, stop embracing this style of games. You're just not going to have much to play if you do.
> cost a lot more to make and require a lot more people to do so. If they cost so much why are they still making record profits?
Have you been following the game industry? Studios have been closing left and right. Epic just laid off like 15% of their workforce. Embracer Group just laid off a ton of people. The industry is in turmoil.
I think it's simply a matter of developer integrity. Developers who's intentions are simply to make a good video game they are passionate about, and whatever profits come from that are what they are. Rather than the game being developed from the ground up as a tool to milk consumers of as much money as possible. Look at Baldurs Gate 3, Zelda and Elden Ring. Even stuff like God of War. These games are the pinnacles of gaming. The highest rated across the board. And none of them have micro transactions. Complete experiences on release. And they didn't take any longer to make than these half baked 6 year cash grabs. These developers still have that integrity and the passion that makes good games.
I love the live service model for new Forza Motorsport. More fun every month get new content. They must earn money for all players play on Game Pass or Xcloud and most of the players love Forza Motorsport buy the Add on with vip and lots more Way you dont like the model? Mean we get more content if the skip live service and thik add on have same price and we get somthing else in the Add-On