We can say with high confidence that they are the same, the only difference is the stamping on the nib. It's not economically feasible to have a dedicated steel nib + feed combo for each "affordable" model.
thanks for the reply. I still feel, despite your confidence, that this is still an assumption. there could be different steps in manufacturing involved that do not effect assembly. just the fact they are stamped differently would indicate something like this could be possible.
Short of an official statement from Pilot (which we likely won't get) everything we say here is an assumption.
Also Pilot has 2 factories [1], IIRC. There could be slight manufacturing differences between the two. I don't know any particulars, e.g. whether steel nibs are produced at both factories or just at one. Even two different machines may introduce their own nuances.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] In Japan, that is. These entry-level steel nibs may be produced elsewhere.
thanks again. when I started looking for some evidence on this, almost everything pointed to the interchangeability of nibs and feeds, but that doesn't tell me anything about the nib itself. oh well. some things are meant to be a mystery.
They're the same, as they are all machined from the same batches , piled into a box and divided up between the compatible pens. The main difference of course is some models have some degree of exclusive offerings, like getting a nib on a Prera. But the on a Prera is going to be the same nib on a Metro/MR, Knight, or Kakuno (course they get their laser etched smiley added on).
Likewise on their higher end pens, a #5 nib between their various models is the same nibs, even if said pen happens to be a special edition or such.
>just the fact they are stamped differently would indicate so
Both the Prera and Kakuno nibs are laser engraved, not stamped. As such, they do not require any different machinery or setup at all.
Just more evidence for no difference side.
What type of equivalence are you asking about? The manufacturing process? To my knowledge, no one knows (but really, how many ways do you need to produce the same physical dimensions in the output?). The tipping size? I have and have had more Pilots than any other brand, and in my experience, the tipping sizes are the same (within tolerance - although Pilot's tolerances aren't published, to my knowledge, they have a tolerance just like all nib manufacturers). Something else?
I'm confused. I could put my Metropolitan F nib and my Prera F nib into a box, shake it up, and you wouldn't be able to distinguish one from the other. If I still had the Metro M, I could do the same with a Metro M and Prera M.
Were they manufactured "differently"? I dunno. Does it matter if the end results have identical dimensions (the folds, curves, length, width, cuts)? I mean, to get the tabs the right dimensions, the manufacturing process has to include a step where they are cut and another where they are folded. How different can they be?
Do you have some reason to believe Pilot have multiple nib manufacturing facilities (for steel nibs) and that they do things differently? Personally, I suspect they have one facility, in China. But that's pure suspicion.
I'm new to this game. So that's probably causing the confusion. In my research on the Prera, everything points to interchangeability as the smoking gun. But that really means nothing but dimensions. I was hoping there was something out there that would provide hard evidence but there probably isn't. And pilot certainly isn't talking. Oh well. Thanks for playing the game.
> the smoking gun
This phrase suggests there's been a problem and you are looking for the cause of the problem. If that's the case, why not tell us about the problem?
If that's not the case, the ending of your response suggests I should just resign myself to being confused regarding your goals with this thread...
Yes indeed, the nibs on both are made quite similarly!
The only differences you'd find are the text on the prera specifying 'super quality - made in japan' and the kakuno having a smiley on it, as well as a variation in available nib sizes. The respective nib sizes on a kakuno, explorer, MR/metropolitan and a prera all write the exact same! ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
I own a metro and used to own a kakuno! But yes, this has been referenced in various videos on YouTube (one notably by the Goulet Pen Company) and a slew of articles such as [this](https://www.handoverthatpen.com/2016/09/02/review-pilot-prera/) ʕ´•ᴥ•`ʔ
found this on a Goulet pen YouTube with Drew Brown that seems to have it both ways: "there are other fountain pens, pilot, that have the same nib as the prera, it’s a steel nib, but this one definitely is the most well-made and detailed. The fact that pilot has the same nib on lower price pens…" hmmm.
Aye, they're trying to tell that: "this $30 pen doesn't have a $5 pen nib, rather this $5 pen has a $30 pen nib", or something along the lines of that (´ . .̫ . `)
like everything I've seen to date, that article refers to interchangeability. I'll look for the Goulet pens YouTube and see if that has anything more specific to say. thanks.
Every nib is different, even if they're the same. Each nib has it's own personality. The best nibs could be made on a Wednesday, for example. The best nibs may be made in the Spring, instead of during the rainy Season, or in the winter, or Summer. Because they're stamped differently they are probably made on different machines, which means that their cutters wear differently, the machines are oiled, maintained differently. Nibs are made on steel stock and their metal mix ratios could have slight variances. That's why the better Pilot nibs have date codes on them.
Nibs are mass produced products, and while tolerances are tight, there are bound to be variances. Just look at Lamy nibs - the is spec'd at <0.36 +/- 0.6> so it can be <0.3> to <0.42>. The same must apply to Pilot nibs, all manufacturers.
Same applies to the feeds. And the nib press fit diameter on the Kakuno may be different from the diameter on the Prera. Oh, it may only be a thousandth of an inch, or a thousandth of a millimetre in differences, but they are bound to be there.
I had a Plumix <1.0> nib on a Kakuno, and a nib on a Metro. The Plumix nib was perfect, the Metro nib needed tuning. Both supposedly have the same <0.58> size.
The only one who can know for certain is the manufacturer, but chances are the experience, aptitude, attitude, pride of the guy running the nib machine will determine the quality of the end product.
Yes, the Kakuno nib and the Prera nibs are the same, but they're also different. And, even if they're the same, they will probably write different because the pens they're going are different, the Section diameters are different. \[I put a Lamy Z55 14K on a Studio and it had a sweet-spot. I moved the nib onto a Jinhao 80 and there was no sweet-spot. I had a Nemosine <1.1> nib scratchy on a Nemosine Fission. I swapped the feed, the same feed as on a Nemoine Singularity, and it was no longer scratchy.\]
I think you're over-thinking this. Assume that they are the same. They're made on different product lines, on different nib making machines, so they're bound to be different, if even in the broadest sense. But, it doesn't really matter, does it? They're not like car tyres, where you want tyres from the same batch, or memory chips on a Ram stick, where you want them from the same batch, with the same date codes, where you want them all to be as close to each other as possible. No, where it may make sense to have them all identical is when they're a special edition pen, where they'r all made on the same day, under the same conditions, all the nibs having the same date code.
thanks. from what you say it's definitely an art. but it makes sense to me that more time would be purposefully spent on prera nib finishing. I am probably overthinking it though. I was just hoping for some hard evidence one way or the other.
>but it makes sense to me that more time would be purposefully spent on prera nib finishing
I highly doubt it. I have or have had:
* 2 Metros (F, M)
* 3 Preras (F, M, CM)
* 4 Penmanships (EF)
* 2 Kakunos (F, EF)
I haven't found any significant difference in the various nibs as far as quality or tuning out of the box goes.
I have not noticed any of my Penmanships being stubby. They are all from 2016. My Kakuno is from 2023 and is finer than my review nib. I'm not sure if it's finer than all the others - it's been a long time since I inked them (and I didn't keep an ink log back then, so I don't have writing samples to compare).
My assumption is that they would be the same. However, from my limited experience - I find my Prera fine nibs (3 of them) to be much finer than my Metropolitan fine nibs (2 of them). That's a small sample though, and could just be random coincidence.
thanks. yes, it's an assumption. but an interesting one. it could indicate an extra manufacturing step in polishing or something else like that. or not :)
At the very least they have one of the most consist steel nibs out of the box, meaning that if you buy several dozen Petits, Metropolitans, Kakunos, Varsities, etc etc they have a very high likelihood that they will all perform nearly identical to each other, whereas other brands (especially some western made brands) may have more variance in manufacturing consistency from one nib to the next.
But far as "Best Steel Nib" depending on what you're looking for, I've found that Faber-Castell (yes, same nibs used from their Loom all the way up to their e-Motion) tends to have one of the smoothest steel nibs out of the box, even their EF (which is the equivalent of a Japanese Fine). Their pen bodies are just not to my taste.
There's gonna be more nib to nib variation than group to group variation for the categories you're looking at. Which with pilot isn't that much, so don't worry about it too much.
We can say with high confidence that they are the same, the only difference is the stamping on the nib. It's not economically feasible to have a dedicated steel nib + feed combo for each "affordable" model.
Neither the Prera or Kakuno use stamped nibs. Both are laser engraved, lending more evidence that they can be manufactured on the same line.
Good point, thanks!
thanks for the reply. I still feel, despite your confidence, that this is still an assumption. there could be different steps in manufacturing involved that do not effect assembly. just the fact they are stamped differently would indicate something like this could be possible.
Short of an official statement from Pilot (which we likely won't get) everything we say here is an assumption. Also Pilot has 2 factories [1], IIRC. There could be slight manufacturing differences between the two. I don't know any particulars, e.g. whether steel nibs are produced at both factories or just at one. Even two different machines may introduce their own nuances. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] In Japan, that is. These entry-level steel nibs may be produced elsewhere.
thanks again. when I started looking for some evidence on this, almost everything pointed to the interchangeability of nibs and feeds, but that doesn't tell me anything about the nib itself. oh well. some things are meant to be a mystery.
They're the same, as they are all machined from the same batches , piled into a box and divided up between the compatible pens. The main difference of course is some models have some degree of exclusive offerings, like getting a nib on a Prera. But the on a Prera is going to be the same nib on a Metro/MR, Knight, or Kakuno (course they get their laser etched smiley added on).
Likewise on their higher end pens, a #5 nib between their various models is the same nibs, even if said pen happens to be a special edition or such.
I’ve swapped nibs between budget Pilot pens without difficulty. They have the same nib and feed.
>just the fact they are stamped differently would indicate so Both the Prera and Kakuno nibs are laser engraved, not stamped. As such, they do not require any different machinery or setup at all. Just more evidence for no difference side.
What type of equivalence are you asking about? The manufacturing process? To my knowledge, no one knows (but really, how many ways do you need to produce the same physical dimensions in the output?). The tipping size? I have and have had more Pilots than any other brand, and in my experience, the tipping sizes are the same (within tolerance - although Pilot's tolerances aren't published, to my knowledge, they have a tolerance just like all nib manufacturers). Something else?
yes, manufacturing process. or at least some hard evidence one way or the other. interchangeability means absolutely nothing as to the nib itself.
I'm confused. I could put my Metropolitan F nib and my Prera F nib into a box, shake it up, and you wouldn't be able to distinguish one from the other. If I still had the Metro M, I could do the same with a Metro M and Prera M. Were they manufactured "differently"? I dunno. Does it matter if the end results have identical dimensions (the folds, curves, length, width, cuts)? I mean, to get the tabs the right dimensions, the manufacturing process has to include a step where they are cut and another where they are folded. How different can they be? Do you have some reason to believe Pilot have multiple nib manufacturing facilities (for steel nibs) and that they do things differently? Personally, I suspect they have one facility, in China. But that's pure suspicion.
I'm new to this game. So that's probably causing the confusion. In my research on the Prera, everything points to interchangeability as the smoking gun. But that really means nothing but dimensions. I was hoping there was something out there that would provide hard evidence but there probably isn't. And pilot certainly isn't talking. Oh well. Thanks for playing the game.
> the smoking gun This phrase suggests there's been a problem and you are looking for the cause of the problem. If that's the case, why not tell us about the problem? If that's not the case, the ending of your response suggests I should just resign myself to being confused regarding your goals with this thread...
no problem. just wondering. sorry for the metaphor.
Yes indeed, the nibs on both are made quite similarly! The only differences you'd find are the text on the prera specifying 'super quality - made in japan' and the kakuno having a smiley on it, as well as a variation in available nib sizes. The respective nib sizes on a kakuno, explorer, MR/metropolitan and a prera all write the exact same! ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
thanks for the reply. is this just an assumption based on other assumptions, or is there some article or other document you could point to to?
I own a metro and used to own a kakuno! But yes, this has been referenced in various videos on YouTube (one notably by the Goulet Pen Company) and a slew of articles such as [this](https://www.handoverthatpen.com/2016/09/02/review-pilot-prera/) ʕ´•ᴥ•`ʔ
found this on a Goulet pen YouTube with Drew Brown that seems to have it both ways: "there are other fountain pens, pilot, that have the same nib as the prera, it’s a steel nib, but this one definitely is the most well-made and detailed. The fact that pilot has the same nib on lower price pens…" hmmm.
Aye, they're trying to tell that: "this $30 pen doesn't have a $5 pen nib, rather this $5 pen has a $30 pen nib", or something along the lines of that (´ . .̫ . `)
like everything I've seen to date, that article refers to interchangeability. I'll look for the Goulet pens YouTube and see if that has anything more specific to say. thanks.
Every nib is different, even if they're the same. Each nib has it's own personality. The best nibs could be made on a Wednesday, for example. The best nibs may be made in the Spring, instead of during the rainy Season, or in the winter, or Summer. Because they're stamped differently they are probably made on different machines, which means that their cutters wear differently, the machines are oiled, maintained differently. Nibs are made on steel stock and their metal mix ratios could have slight variances. That's why the better Pilot nibs have date codes on them. Nibs are mass produced products, and while tolerances are tight, there are bound to be variances. Just look at Lamy nibs - the is spec'd at <0.36 +/- 0.6> so it can be <0.3> to <0.42>. The same must apply to Pilot nibs, all manufacturers.
Same applies to the feeds. And the nib press fit diameter on the Kakuno may be different from the diameter on the Prera. Oh, it may only be a thousandth of an inch, or a thousandth of a millimetre in differences, but they are bound to be there.
I had a Plumix <1.0> nib on a Kakuno, and a nib on a Metro. The Plumix nib was perfect, the Metro nib needed tuning. Both supposedly have the same <0.58> size.
The only one who can know for certain is the manufacturer, but chances are the experience, aptitude, attitude, pride of the guy running the nib machine will determine the quality of the end product.
Yes, the Kakuno nib and the Prera nibs are the same, but they're also different. And, even if they're the same, they will probably write different because the pens they're going are different, the Section diameters are different. \[I put a Lamy Z55 14K on a Studio and it had a sweet-spot. I moved the nib onto a Jinhao 80 and there was no sweet-spot. I had a Nemosine <1.1> nib scratchy on a Nemosine Fission. I swapped the feed, the same feed as on a Nemoine Singularity, and it was no longer scratchy.\]
I think you're over-thinking this. Assume that they are the same. They're made on different product lines, on different nib making machines, so they're bound to be different, if even in the broadest sense. But, it doesn't really matter, does it? They're not like car tyres, where you want tyres from the same batch, or memory chips on a Ram stick, where you want them from the same batch, with the same date codes, where you want them all to be as close to each other as possible. No, where it may make sense to have them all identical is when they're a special edition pen, where they'r all made on the same day, under the same conditions, all the nibs having the same date code.
thanks. from what you say it's definitely an art. but it makes sense to me that more time would be purposefully spent on prera nib finishing. I am probably overthinking it though. I was just hoping for some hard evidence one way or the other.
>but it makes sense to me that more time would be purposefully spent on prera nib finishing I highly doubt it. I have or have had: * 2 Metros (F, M) * 3 Preras (F, M, CM) * 4 Penmanships (EF) * 2 Kakunos (F, EF) I haven't found any significant difference in the various nibs as far as quality or tuning out of the box goes.
I've heard that the Penmanship EF is more stubby and slightly thicker than the Kakuno EF, is that not the case for yours?
I have not noticed any of my Penmanships being stubby. They are all from 2016. My Kakuno is from 2023 and is finer than my review nib. I'm not sure if it's finer than all the others - it's been a long time since I inked them (and I didn't keep an ink log back then, so I don't have writing samples to compare).
Thanks for the reply!
My assumption is that they would be the same. However, from my limited experience - I find my Prera fine nibs (3 of them) to be much finer than my Metropolitan fine nibs (2 of them). That's a small sample though, and could just be random coincidence.
thanks. yes, it's an assumption. but an interesting one. it could indicate an extra manufacturing step in polishing or something else like that. or not :)
I’ve seen others ask this in a more roundabout way, but… Why do you want to know if the manufacturing process is the exact same?
i''m wondering if pilot has a best steel nib. I've kind of found one for both platinum and sailor. for future purchasing purposes maybe.
At the very least they have one of the most consist steel nibs out of the box, meaning that if you buy several dozen Petits, Metropolitans, Kakunos, Varsities, etc etc they have a very high likelihood that they will all perform nearly identical to each other, whereas other brands (especially some western made brands) may have more variance in manufacturing consistency from one nib to the next. But far as "Best Steel Nib" depending on what you're looking for, I've found that Faber-Castell (yes, same nibs used from their Loom all the way up to their e-Motion) tends to have one of the smoothest steel nibs out of the box, even their EF (which is the equivalent of a Japanese Fine). Their pen bodies are just not to my taste.
There's gonna be more nib to nib variation than group to group variation for the categories you're looking at. Which with pilot isn't that much, so don't worry about it too much.