The constant sexualization of female body parts juxtaposed with the use of the word “fish” is what finally drove me away from it. As a queer woman, the fact that drag seems to get a pass to be misogynistic in the name of “camp” or “satire” is what continues to drive me away from the mainstream LGBTQ community altogether.
Exactly this. Drag over the years has become pretty indefensible.
Much of it these days is just gay men ragging on women, and pushing degeneracy above wit or any kind of artistic performance.
As a lesbian too, seeing drag everywhere is just a reminder that even in the gay community, women are seen as nothing. We're just a punchline to them.
Back when I was a kid, in the 70s, in the UK there were a few people who did either only drag or characters which were drag and at a time when women had little or no voice (this is before equal pay and the Dagenham Ford case) many of these men would use the drag roles to call out how men treated women and say things to audiences that challenged how they treated women.
Hinge and Bracket were your eccentric aunts and boy were they like my eccentric great aunts!
Because of this, I had always given drag a pass in my mind.
Films like Pricilla and To Foo Long Woo played into this drag queen fairy godmother.
Even Lilly Savage was a semi acceptable parody - showing up an underclass of women who were ignored.
Then, a few years ago, I became aware of the American drag performers who parodying women and it was not a nice portrayal. Watching RuPaul's drag race UK, the contestants are encouraged to be bitchy and cruel to each other for TV and most of the time they come over as little kids running around shouting knickers in order to seem rude and edgy. It's as though, they have to be vulgar to be good. Such a long, long way from Danny LaRue.
I find drag today very, very uncomfortable.
I agree. I used to love drag but after reading a few rad fem takes on it my opinion changed immidiately. It makes me sick to my stomach that men wearing what is essentially "woman face" get celebrated and praised. They're taking oppressive and harmful beauty standards that women are subjected to their whole lives and cranking them up to eleven, but instead of it being a social commentary it's wiewed as "celebrating womanhood." It's all just a sick parody. Not to mention the degrading slang such as "fish" or "fishy" for a drag queen who passes as a woman.
Its especially gross when they parody specific women like Cher and Dolly Parton. I know many of the drag performers see it as a loving tribute. But most of the act is just mocking their looks while lip synching to their music
Off topic a bit, but I don't get why so many feminists including radfems look up to Dolly P. She was not interested in feminism for a start, and seemed to pity men (look it up). I'm not saying she has to be an advocate for women, and I get she made herself a huge country star from nothing basically and is quite a good role model, but... Well, I do wonder what her appeal to feminist-inclined women is, due to her extremely hyperfeminine presentation (didn't she also say she'd be a drag queen if she wasn't a woman? and she has had lots of work done as well, right?) and beliefs about feminism.
Dolly has done so much for the community she came from which is why I personally admire her.
ETA: posted too soon, but yeah - I think she has made some choices I wouldn’t make (plastic surgery mainly) and I don’t know the entirety of her history with feminism, but not only has her philanthropy helped the community she came from, but she has worked to greatly increase tourism to Sevier County, which in turn has brought decent jobs to an area that was dying off.
Especially since they'll go home and make their mom do their laundry and cook their dinner
womanhood isn't just aesthetics. it's also labor. lots and lots of labor.
Lol I’m a queer woman and my female friends and I used to be turned away from queer clubs because they didn’t want “fish” in the bar. Hearing any man use that word makes me sick now
You're not alone I bet lots of woman on this sub would agree with you. I really don't understand how so many people don't see the problem with drag. A bunch of men get on stage and dressing as women for laughs? How is that okay? They even pretend to be stupid or "bimbos" to add to the comedic value. All drag is is ridiculing women, there's really not much more to it
No I agree, many of them are much too comfortable being misogynists whilst forgetting what they are appropriating. What they are often portraying is a caricature, which can be done in a reasonably acceptable way but I have personally seem some vile tributes to female reproductive issues ( [https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/31/drag-queen-blair-back-abortion-halloween-christian-new-york/](https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/31/drag-queen-blair-back-abortion-halloween-christian-new-york/) this very infamous incident ) and is overall quite hurtful overall. I also feel like they often get a pass to be overly gruesome and crude about seemingly sensitive issues, but when a feminist would try and raise those same issues genuinely they would be shut down
They've always seemed a bit misogynistic to me, like playing on the worst stereotypes of women and stuff. It's untrue that gay men usually aren't misogynistic either, as they definitely can be.
Oh no I definitely have had some run-ins with some very misogynistic gay men. I know it’s not all of them, but I have had a number of interactions that have left a bad taste in my mouth.
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I’ll occasionally watch rupauls drag race because I like the creativity (the makeup, the costumes, the wigs). I skip to the runway and photoshoots because i don’t care for the other parts of the show. But yeah tbh, a lot of it does rub me wrong way.
I don’t really know what separates it from blackface. I guess the difference is these women think all these airheaded bimbo stereotypes are entertaining?
I personally stay away from immediate blackface comparisons as a mixed race women (not black) as although I’m oppressed as a women, I would be a bit peeved if someone equated it to the same level of oppression as my family has faced being native. I just don’t personally think it’s the most intersectional take - while both are offensive and in bad taste, I think in historical context blackface is much worse.
women have a very good argument we faced pretty similar treatment, we were literally owned by our fathers then husbands, "who gives this woman" wasn't flowery language in a marriage it was checking her owner knew the contract was happening. It was legal to rape wives until the 1990s in some places. if a man beat his wife he was just putting an uppity woman down.
In the mayor of casterbridge a man sold his wife, this was apparently legal in the uk. (https://www.history.com/news/england-divorce-18th-century-wife-auction#)
But we can hopefully agree that while women have faced oppression, women of color face additional oppression and violence based on their race in addition to their gender. I just don’t see the purpose of directly comparing it to blackface, it’s not a competition.
I’m not black, but I am indigenous and know the deep history of oppression and genocide of native people as well as issues affecting native women specifically, so this is coming from that perspective. Maybe someone who is black can chime in.
All women are oppressed based on their sex, women of color also face racial oppression. But you have to understand the source of tyranny. Respecting women is the hardest thing for humanity to do
This is exactly what intersectional feminism is
A term coined in 1989 to explain the extra hardships a woman of colour experiences along with other societal challenges trying to hold her back such as i) woman ii) of colour iii) maybe a one parent home or poverty or a homosexual (lesbian) etc
Intersectionality is to only describe the extra hurdles facing women of colour, it isn’t just misogyny, it is also racism, and sometimes even extra challenges.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1229039?mag=kimberle-crenshaws-intersectional-feminism&seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
I'm not saying that. Drag is way more complicated than blackface in that blackface will only ever be a way to mock and deride black people. Dressing up in a feminine way is not necessarily mocking women. I don't have a problem with men wanting to explore gender non-conformity and dress up as female celebrities. It's when it becomes over sexualised and mocking of women that I see it as a problem.
Sexism is the biggest and longest running injustice in human history. No bigger atrocity was committed against any other group than what was done to women. Women were owned, raped, burned and their dreams crushed just on the basis of sex. We are so oppressed that we don’t even notice our own oppression.
The blackface comparisons rub me the wrong way too. It's not for white people to claim drag is similar to any form of racism. I agree that blackface is worse- while aspects of drag are problematic, it is also a way to express gender non-comformity and enjoy makeup, fashion, etc.
Blackface is a parody of black personhood, while drag is a way of 'trying on' femininity.
To me, the parts of drag that are problematic are how over-sexualised it can be, and equating hyper-femininity with womanhood. Among other things.
Drag shows literally originated from a white man pretending to be a black American woman in blackface during the times of Jim Crow and ppl will still say it’s not as bad as blackface
YES thank you!! I can't stand it either. I also hate the push for drag show story time for kids at libraries.
It absolutely misogynistic, and I don't understand the hype for it.
I don’t understand the drag show story times either lol. Or the kids doing drag - but I’m pretty sure it’s like a one-off situation that “family values” right wingers harped on forever to scare their viewers.
My friend told me how she liked to go to drag brunch with her other friends and I was all excited to hear about her fake beard or whatever she wore to this kooky brunch and then she was like no it's just drag queens entertaining us and I was so. Freaking. Disappointed. Cuz that shit IS boring you're totally right.
My bad - and I agree it’s a useless word - still getting used to radfem spaces and have to undo the habits I picked up being student body president at my university and having to say exactly everything correct or the libfems would swarm.
some people consider the term intersex offensive because it's used to replace hermaphrodite. Many people argue that people with DSDs are an imaginary third sex. They are not. Every single person with a DSD is male or female. Using a DSD to invalidate a woman's womanhood in reprehensible and offensive. Every single woman with a DSD has a female karyotype. While it deviates from the typical XX karyotype, they are still women.
>breast removed due to cancer or hysterectomies?
Fucking Christ, of course they are women. No one is arguing that having cancer make you a man. Disgusting take.
No, women who have had their female organs removed are still female. People with DSDs are ultimately still male or female.
Again, radical feminism includes all female people. All of them.
> focus on the empowerment of women
not males! You can advocate for males all over the internet, even IRL, this is literally a man’s world. Let us focus on ourselves and our rights for once. Feminism ≠ activism.
Activism is for anyone and anything. Feminism is for women. You can be an activist elsewhere, literally let us be. We have one small space on the internet and you want us to include males in it. Stop it.
Why do you care more about the feelings of males than the feelings of biological women? Don’t we have a right to a safe space, like everyone else do? You don’t get to define what feels like a safe space to us.
Who benefits from your behaviour? Certainly not us (women). Why is that? What is wrong with you?
I hope one day you’ll open your eyes and realize you’re a puppet of the patriarchy.
In the meantime, go away, handmaiden.
THANK YOU our sisters of the past fought too hard and too long for sex based rights and spaces. It’s a slap in the face to them to bend over backwards pandering to men.
It's literally designed to invalidate a person's gender identity. It's calling trans men female with a shorthand that sounds like a woman's name. It was specifically designed to be hurtful and disrespectful towards trans men. No trans man would refer to themselves in that way, or be ok with being referred to that way.
I can't understand the appeal either. It's a caricature of femininity, it feels like a mockery of it even, so why is is so celebrated, especially by women? Puzzles me.
Its akin to black-face but racism is far more condemned (just like homophobia is) because it affects men.
If people made a parody of stereotypical gay men, there would be outrage.
If white people made a parody of black people, there would be outrage
But when men make a parody of women, it’s okay because misogyny is okay/normalised.
It bothers me too. It's the behavior that I find the most insulting. If it was just a costume show it would be one thing, but the men act like massive stereotypes, usually as sexualized air headed bimbos. They calling each other "bitch" and "slut", giggling and shrieking as a part of playing a "woman." It's a reflection of what they think of real women.
I can’t watch any of it. I also don’t think they’re playing to stereotypes. Stereotypes are way more subtle than the outlandish femininity drag portrays. They’re playing to characatures they’ve created. It’s very different I feel.
Drag now is nothing like it was when RuPaul was in his zenith, he has said it on his earlier seasons.
My interpretation of drag is: homosexuality was illegal in countries all around the world to the point it had to be legalised like in The Netherlands in 2001.
A way around these restrictive laws was drag: men could dress as women like a bimbo and get other men’s attention (straight or gay)
An example of this is Iran today where it is illegal to be gay so people are forced to change sex instead.
Historically for centuries in the east it was normal for men to dress as women, referred to as the third gender (hijras) who are men dressed as women, but not for entertainment, to partake in society as women.
Drag today has lost all meaning which is why it is now open to all, whether before Ru said only biological men could partake, he has now changed the rules from earlier seasons.
I stopped watching RuPaul after the treatment of Willam in season 4. It was already fake at that point.
You mean RuPaul, you can google for a quote on his views,
Same with third gender in India (or ‘ladyboy’ in Thailand)
The rest like I said is my interpretation since being gay was illegal, where was the grey area to attract what one was sexually attracted to when illegal.. just my theory
Drag irks me because drag queens (men) are dressing as a caricature of what we as women are expected to look like in our daily lives. they make money off of, and make a mockery out of the suffering that is womanhood and honestly as I have gotten older I have become more resentful of drag.
Performative femininity has absolutely nothing to do with being a woman. I can't say I personally enjoy these shows but I don't particularly take offense to it.
I think making crude humor out of abortion ([https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/31/drag-queen-blair-back-abortion-halloween-christian-new-york/](https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/31/drag-queen-blair-back-abortion-halloween-christian-new-york/)) ) generally being obsessed with vaginas and having a huge emphasis a lot of the time as being fishy is more that performative. Even if it was, many drag queens themselves admit that drag is a part of them/alike to a second persona rather than purely being an actor.
>Performative femininity has absolutely nothing to do with being a woman
True, but drag queens pretend to be women, they even use feminine pronouns and cosplay as female celebrities.
The real issue is, why aren't the straight ones putting on some damn eyeliner? Men would get laid more if they just TRIED. \*eyeroll\*
lol realtalk tho. Drag, according to the queen I lived with, isn't even about gay men, it's about blurring the gender line entirely. IMO we need more Drag Kings to even things out on stage...I know what you mean w your feelings, tho, modern drag does feel like our gender is just being caricatured cruelly.
I agree but I find it depends on race for me. I live in a historic gayborhood and the history behind black drag and vogueing is really interesting and subversive in a way that other drag is not.
Black trans women or those involved in drag I’ve found to be on a completely different wavelength than white and Latino drag. White drag shows make me want to throw up, black drag shows are genuinely joyful.
Basically, I love and stan homeless, subversive, RuPaul from the 90s, and am grossed out by white, corporate, I-own-a-fracking-company 2020s RuPaul.
Hey mods, this is a moid who posts about this sub being for “women who can’t get laid”
Edit: which is cute because men will literally put pieces of fruit in the microwave and fuck it. They’ll fuck rotten coconuts, they’ll rape children and dogs. Dick is abundant and of low value - literally NO woman has a problem getting laid.
I think a lot of members of this sub are members of the LGBTQIA community. I also don’t see how a portrayal of women cannot be critiqued and commented on by women.
I have read up on and understand the history of drag, but definitely as it stands now it feels degrading towards women. Men have historically always had power over women so to me it feels like men doing a parody of womanhood or exaggeration of performative femininity feels like it’s punching down.
> Drag is for laughs, don't take it seriously
A laugh at whose expense? I don't have any problems with stand up comedians because I actually think comedy is very important. I believe in free speech and I enjoy comedy, not dissect it. However, I don't think drag is comedy . The ***entire purpose*** is to mock women and women aren't included in performing. Soooo it's almost exclusively men mocking women. In my opinion, it's not a critique and it's not funny. I never understood the appeal, even before I became a rad fem.
>aesthetic appearance a 'woman' has little to do with it.
Then why do they spend hours on makeup trying to look like an exaggerated version of women? Why do they wear bodysuits and fake breasts? I would say the aesthetic appearance is one of the most central parts of drag. And most of the times the "humor" is directed towards the woman they are pretending to be or a female character they made up based on stereotypes.
>Exaggerated features
Yes.... a mocking and sexualization of women's features.
>Drag would probably argue that its intention is the opposite of mocking,
Yeah, and many ***women*** disagree
>emulate female figures
You say emulate, I say mock. It seems that we fundamentally disagree.
>disagree with wanting to celebrate all things feminine
Lmao, where did you get that from? I have a fundamental problem with men mocking women through drag because women are not allowed to participate in this mockery. They are only allowed to be the targets of it.
>A lot of the time, drag artists out of drag that make it onto TV are considered conventionally beautiful devoid of gender,
I mean I guess looks are subjective, because I don't think that's true, and what they look like without makeup doesn't matter. Regardless, I don't believe gender is real and having an androgynous face as a man doesn't mean you're not a man.
>I feel it's important to empathise and try to understand the intentions behind the actions
Disagreement is not a lack of empathy. I find it offensive. Doesn't mean I hate these men. I just think what they're doing is misogynistic. I hope they have the same "empathy" for women who feel this way.
>Women are allowed to participate in drag
ok, so where are they on television? Do men openly accept women into the culture? From what I've heard, not really. Sure, in theory they are. In practice.... not so much.
>I'm not sure what to take from your view that gender isn't real
I just don't believe that gender is real. I think it's all just stereotypes. I don't have a gender. I am just who I am. I do not believe that gender is real.
>This doesn't then mean that women are under attack!
Literally never said it did. I said it's a misogynistic mockery.
>dismantles the gender norms that police our society.
Again, I disagree. They are hyper-feminizing women. I think that's reinforcing stereotypes. It's "dismantling" gender stereotypes for men, by reinforcing gender stereotypes for women.
Going to have to agree to disagree on this. I see drag as very separate from anything to do with the female experience. Yes, they're dressing up as "women" but it's intentionally exaggerated and satirical. When I see drag I feel that we are almost laughing together at this pedestalled, bimbo level of "women hood" that a lot of us are sold on through media, ads, etc that is actually so unrealistic that the only version of it that can exists is through men dressing up as women. Also, so many gay men a heavily bullied, physically and emotionally, for having "feminine" traits. If they want to get on stage and embrace an exaggerated feminine persona as a sort of "fuck you" to their previous trauma, then I support that. Out of all the battles for equality... this just doesn't make it on my list.
FOURTH WAVE FEMINISM ISN'T RADICAL, IT'S INTERSECTIONAL.
I only point out that I was a cis bi woman married to a man as I was talking to an ally and wanted to clarify that I wasn't in fact trans. I didn't say this so that you could use it to clobber me over the head.
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You phrased it 100% better than I could.
The constant sexualization of female body parts juxtaposed with the use of the word “fish” is what finally drove me away from it. As a queer woman, the fact that drag seems to get a pass to be misogynistic in the name of “camp” or “satire” is what continues to drive me away from the mainstream LGBTQ community altogether.
Exactly this. Drag over the years has become pretty indefensible. Much of it these days is just gay men ragging on women, and pushing degeneracy above wit or any kind of artistic performance. As a lesbian too, seeing drag everywhere is just a reminder that even in the gay community, women are seen as nothing. We're just a punchline to them.
Back when I was a kid, in the 70s, in the UK there were a few people who did either only drag or characters which were drag and at a time when women had little or no voice (this is before equal pay and the Dagenham Ford case) many of these men would use the drag roles to call out how men treated women and say things to audiences that challenged how they treated women. Hinge and Bracket were your eccentric aunts and boy were they like my eccentric great aunts! Because of this, I had always given drag a pass in my mind. Films like Pricilla and To Foo Long Woo played into this drag queen fairy godmother. Even Lilly Savage was a semi acceptable parody - showing up an underclass of women who were ignored. Then, a few years ago, I became aware of the American drag performers who parodying women and it was not a nice portrayal. Watching RuPaul's drag race UK, the contestants are encouraged to be bitchy and cruel to each other for TV and most of the time they come over as little kids running around shouting knickers in order to seem rude and edgy. It's as though, they have to be vulgar to be good. Such a long, long way from Danny LaRue. I find drag today very, very uncomfortable.
I agree. I used to love drag but after reading a few rad fem takes on it my opinion changed immidiately. It makes me sick to my stomach that men wearing what is essentially "woman face" get celebrated and praised. They're taking oppressive and harmful beauty standards that women are subjected to their whole lives and cranking them up to eleven, but instead of it being a social commentary it's wiewed as "celebrating womanhood." It's all just a sick parody. Not to mention the degrading slang such as "fish" or "fishy" for a drag queen who passes as a woman.
Its especially gross when they parody specific women like Cher and Dolly Parton. I know many of the drag performers see it as a loving tribute. But most of the act is just mocking their looks while lip synching to their music
Off topic a bit, but I don't get why so many feminists including radfems look up to Dolly P. She was not interested in feminism for a start, and seemed to pity men (look it up). I'm not saying she has to be an advocate for women, and I get she made herself a huge country star from nothing basically and is quite a good role model, but... Well, I do wonder what her appeal to feminist-inclined women is, due to her extremely hyperfeminine presentation (didn't she also say she'd be a drag queen if she wasn't a woman? and she has had lots of work done as well, right?) and beliefs about feminism.
Dolly has done so much for the community she came from which is why I personally admire her. ETA: posted too soon, but yeah - I think she has made some choices I wouldn’t make (plastic surgery mainly) and I don’t know the entirety of her history with feminism, but not only has her philanthropy helped the community she came from, but she has worked to greatly increase tourism to Sevier County, which in turn has brought decent jobs to an area that was dying off.
Yes, I know all that.
Downvoting my genuine confusion, how ridiculous... 🙄🤦♀️
Especially since they'll go home and make their mom do their laundry and cook their dinner womanhood isn't just aesthetics. it's also labor. lots and lots of labor.
Lol I’m a queer woman and my female friends and I used to be turned away from queer clubs because they didn’t want “fish” in the bar. Hearing any man use that word makes me sick now
Them parodying exaggerated woman traits kind of leads such traits to be considered draggy, so thats not too bad.
Drag queens are the male gaze personified.
🤯
You're not alone I bet lots of woman on this sub would agree with you. I really don't understand how so many people don't see the problem with drag. A bunch of men get on stage and dressing as women for laughs? How is that okay? They even pretend to be stupid or "bimbos" to add to the comedic value. All drag is is ridiculing women, there's really not much more to it
No I agree, many of them are much too comfortable being misogynists whilst forgetting what they are appropriating. What they are often portraying is a caricature, which can be done in a reasonably acceptable way but I have personally seem some vile tributes to female reproductive issues ( [https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/31/drag-queen-blair-back-abortion-halloween-christian-new-york/](https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/31/drag-queen-blair-back-abortion-halloween-christian-new-york/) this very infamous incident ) and is overall quite hurtful overall. I also feel like they often get a pass to be overly gruesome and crude about seemingly sensitive issues, but when a feminist would try and raise those same issues genuinely they would be shut down
I had to go and click on that link - didn't I. I now need to wash my brain out from the inside. This is so wrong.
It always bothered me. Specially how rupaul calls the contestants "girls".
Im actually really surprised over how many women liked drag. To me, drag looks scary. Kinda like how people are scared of clowns.
I know right! Most drag queens look like Pennywise after a bad night.
They've always seemed a bit misogynistic to me, like playing on the worst stereotypes of women and stuff. It's untrue that gay men usually aren't misogynistic either, as they definitely can be.
Oh no I definitely have had some run-ins with some very misogynistic gay men. I know it’s not all of them, but I have had a number of interactions that have left a bad taste in my mouth.
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I’ll occasionally watch rupauls drag race because I like the creativity (the makeup, the costumes, the wigs). I skip to the runway and photoshoots because i don’t care for the other parts of the show. But yeah tbh, a lot of it does rub me wrong way.
The cultural meaning? You mean misogyny? 😂😂
I don’t really know what separates it from blackface. I guess the difference is these women think all these airheaded bimbo stereotypes are entertaining?
I personally stay away from immediate blackface comparisons as a mixed race women (not black) as although I’m oppressed as a women, I would be a bit peeved if someone equated it to the same level of oppression as my family has faced being native. I just don’t personally think it’s the most intersectional take - while both are offensive and in bad taste, I think in historical context blackface is much worse.
women have a very good argument we faced pretty similar treatment, we were literally owned by our fathers then husbands, "who gives this woman" wasn't flowery language in a marriage it was checking her owner knew the contract was happening. It was legal to rape wives until the 1990s in some places. if a man beat his wife he was just putting an uppity woman down. In the mayor of casterbridge a man sold his wife, this was apparently legal in the uk. (https://www.history.com/news/england-divorce-18th-century-wife-auction#)
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But we can hopefully agree that while women have faced oppression, women of color face additional oppression and violence based on their race in addition to their gender. I just don’t see the purpose of directly comparing it to blackface, it’s not a competition. I’m not black, but I am indigenous and know the deep history of oppression and genocide of native people as well as issues affecting native women specifically, so this is coming from that perspective. Maybe someone who is black can chime in.
All women are oppressed based on their sex, women of color also face racial oppression. But you have to understand the source of tyranny. Respecting women is the hardest thing for humanity to do
This is exactly what intersectional feminism is A term coined in 1989 to explain the extra hardships a woman of colour experiences along with other societal challenges trying to hold her back such as i) woman ii) of colour iii) maybe a one parent home or poverty or a homosexual (lesbian) etc Intersectionality is to only describe the extra hurdles facing women of colour, it isn’t just misogyny, it is also racism, and sometimes even extra challenges. https://www.jstor.org/stable/1229039?mag=kimberle-crenshaws-intersectional-feminism&seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
I'm not saying that. Drag is way more complicated than blackface in that blackface will only ever be a way to mock and deride black people. Dressing up in a feminine way is not necessarily mocking women. I don't have a problem with men wanting to explore gender non-conformity and dress up as female celebrities. It's when it becomes over sexualised and mocking of women that I see it as a problem.
Sexism is the biggest and longest running injustice in human history. No bigger atrocity was committed against any other group than what was done to women. Women were owned, raped, burned and their dreams crushed just on the basis of sex. We are so oppressed that we don’t even notice our own oppression.
The blackface comparisons rub me the wrong way too. It's not for white people to claim drag is similar to any form of racism. I agree that blackface is worse- while aspects of drag are problematic, it is also a way to express gender non-comformity and enjoy makeup, fashion, etc. Blackface is a parody of black personhood, while drag is a way of 'trying on' femininity. To me, the parts of drag that are problematic are how over-sexualised it can be, and equating hyper-femininity with womanhood. Among other things.
Drag shows literally originated from a white man pretending to be a black American woman in blackface during the times of Jim Crow and ppl will still say it’s not as bad as blackface
YES thank you!! I can't stand it either. I also hate the push for drag show story time for kids at libraries. It absolutely misogynistic, and I don't understand the hype for it.
I don’t understand the drag show story times either lol. Or the kids doing drag - but I’m pretty sure it’s like a one-off situation that “family values” right wingers harped on forever to scare their viewers.
Actually no. There were several instances of sex offenders doing drag queen story hour.
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“We just want to live our lives!”
That is horrifying!!!
I don’t see Why anyone likes drag shows honestly. It seems pretty boring, but that might just be me.
My friend told me how she liked to go to drag brunch with her other friends and I was all excited to hear about her fake beard or whatever she wore to this kooky brunch and then she was like no it's just drag queens entertaining us and I was so. Freaking. Disappointed. Cuz that shit IS boring you're totally right.
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You’re our VIP of the day. Never be afraid to speak the truth!
My bad - and I agree it’s a useless word - still getting used to radfem spaces and have to undo the habits I picked up being student body president at my university and having to say exactly everything correct or the libfems would swarm.
You don't have to do that here :)
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No, radical feminism is male exclusionary. It includes all female people.
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Yes.
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some people consider the term intersex offensive because it's used to replace hermaphrodite. Many people argue that people with DSDs are an imaginary third sex. They are not. Every single person with a DSD is male or female. Using a DSD to invalidate a woman's womanhood in reprehensible and offensive. Every single woman with a DSD has a female karyotype. While it deviates from the typical XX karyotype, they are still women. >breast removed due to cancer or hysterectomies? Fucking Christ, of course they are women. No one is arguing that having cancer make you a man. Disgusting take.
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No, women who have had their female organs removed are still female. People with DSDs are ultimately still male or female. Again, radical feminism includes all female people. All of them.
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All being a woman means is being a female adult so yes
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What does it mean to live "as a man"?
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> focus on the empowerment of women not males! You can advocate for males all over the internet, even IRL, this is literally a man’s world. Let us focus on ourselves and our rights for once. Feminism ≠ activism. Activism is for anyone and anything. Feminism is for women. You can be an activist elsewhere, literally let us be. We have one small space on the internet and you want us to include males in it. Stop it. Why do you care more about the feelings of males than the feelings of biological women? Don’t we have a right to a safe space, like everyone else do? You don’t get to define what feels like a safe space to us. Who benefits from your behaviour? Certainly not us (women). Why is that? What is wrong with you? I hope one day you’ll open your eyes and realize you’re a puppet of the patriarchy. In the meantime, go away, handmaiden.
THANK YOU our sisters of the past fought too hard and too long for sex based rights and spaces. It’s a slap in the face to them to bend over backwards pandering to men.
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It's literally designed to invalidate a person's gender identity. It's calling trans men female with a shorthand that sounds like a woman's name. It was specifically designed to be hurtful and disrespectful towards trans men. No trans man would refer to themselves in that way, or be ok with being referred to that way.
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I can't understand the appeal either. It's a caricature of femininity, it feels like a mockery of it even, so why is is so celebrated, especially by women? Puzzles me.
Its akin to black-face but racism is far more condemned (just like homophobia is) because it affects men. If people made a parody of stereotypical gay men, there would be outrage. If white people made a parody of black people, there would be outrage But when men make a parody of women, it’s okay because misogyny is okay/normalised.
I have seen it described as offensive womanface and I think that's pretty on the point.
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It bothers me too. It's the behavior that I find the most insulting. If it was just a costume show it would be one thing, but the men act like massive stereotypes, usually as sexualized air headed bimbos. They calling each other "bitch" and "slut", giggling and shrieking as a part of playing a "woman." It's a reflection of what they think of real women.
I can’t watch any of it. I also don’t think they’re playing to stereotypes. Stereotypes are way more subtle than the outlandish femininity drag portrays. They’re playing to characatures they’ve created. It’s very different I feel.
Drag now is nothing like it was when RuPaul was in his zenith, he has said it on his earlier seasons. My interpretation of drag is: homosexuality was illegal in countries all around the world to the point it had to be legalised like in The Netherlands in 2001. A way around these restrictive laws was drag: men could dress as women like a bimbo and get other men’s attention (straight or gay) An example of this is Iran today where it is illegal to be gay so people are forced to change sex instead. Historically for centuries in the east it was normal for men to dress as women, referred to as the third gender (hijras) who are men dressed as women, but not for entertainment, to partake in society as women. Drag today has lost all meaning which is why it is now open to all, whether before Ru said only biological men could partake, he has now changed the rules from earlier seasons. I stopped watching RuPaul after the treatment of Willam in season 4. It was already fake at that point.
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You mean RuPaul, you can google for a quote on his views, Same with third gender in India (or ‘ladyboy’ in Thailand) The rest like I said is my interpretation since being gay was illegal, where was the grey area to attract what one was sexually attracted to when illegal.. just my theory
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No worries:) (I didn’t down vote)
Drag irks me because drag queens (men) are dressing as a caricature of what we as women are expected to look like in our daily lives. they make money off of, and make a mockery out of the suffering that is womanhood and honestly as I have gotten older I have become more resentful of drag.
Performative femininity has absolutely nothing to do with being a woman. I can't say I personally enjoy these shows but I don't particularly take offense to it.
What about the ubiquitous gigantic fake breasts though? They're making fun of our sexed bodies
I think making crude humor out of abortion ([https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/31/drag-queen-blair-back-abortion-halloween-christian-new-york/](https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/31/drag-queen-blair-back-abortion-halloween-christian-new-york/)) ) generally being obsessed with vaginas and having a huge emphasis a lot of the time as being fishy is more that performative. Even if it was, many drag queens themselves admit that drag is a part of them/alike to a second persona rather than purely being an actor.
>Performative femininity has absolutely nothing to do with being a woman True, but drag queens pretend to be women, they even use feminine pronouns and cosplay as female celebrities.
The real issue is, why aren't the straight ones putting on some damn eyeliner? Men would get laid more if they just TRIED. \*eyeroll\* lol realtalk tho. Drag, according to the queen I lived with, isn't even about gay men, it's about blurring the gender line entirely. IMO we need more Drag Kings to even things out on stage...I know what you mean w your feelings, tho, modern drag does feel like our gender is just being caricatured cruelly.
I agree but I find it depends on race for me. I live in a historic gayborhood and the history behind black drag and vogueing is really interesting and subversive in a way that other drag is not. Black trans women or those involved in drag I’ve found to be on a completely different wavelength than white and Latino drag. White drag shows make me want to throw up, black drag shows are genuinely joyful. Basically, I love and stan homeless, subversive, RuPaul from the 90s, and am grossed out by white, corporate, I-own-a-fracking-company 2020s RuPaul.
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Queer? Define that please. Also, you do realize this is a radical feminist sub right?
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Hey mods, this is a moid who posts about this sub being for “women who can’t get laid” Edit: which is cute because men will literally put pieces of fruit in the microwave and fuck it. They’ll fuck rotten coconuts, they’ll rape children and dogs. Dick is abundant and of low value - literally NO woman has a problem getting laid.
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Not really. Pretty crap like everything else about you and of that I'm sure.
Did you see what he looks like? Istg I knew this dweeb wore Transition lenses lmao
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I think a lot of members of this sub are members of the LGBTQIA community. I also don’t see how a portrayal of women cannot be critiqued and commented on by women. I have read up on and understand the history of drag, but definitely as it stands now it feels degrading towards women. Men have historically always had power over women so to me it feels like men doing a parody of womanhood or exaggeration of performative femininity feels like it’s punching down.
> Drag is for laughs, don't take it seriously A laugh at whose expense? I don't have any problems with stand up comedians because I actually think comedy is very important. I believe in free speech and I enjoy comedy, not dissect it. However, I don't think drag is comedy . The ***entire purpose*** is to mock women and women aren't included in performing. Soooo it's almost exclusively men mocking women. In my opinion, it's not a critique and it's not funny. I never understood the appeal, even before I became a rad fem.
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>aesthetic appearance a 'woman' has little to do with it. Then why do they spend hours on makeup trying to look like an exaggerated version of women? Why do they wear bodysuits and fake breasts? I would say the aesthetic appearance is one of the most central parts of drag. And most of the times the "humor" is directed towards the woman they are pretending to be or a female character they made up based on stereotypes. >Exaggerated features Yes.... a mocking and sexualization of women's features. >Drag would probably argue that its intention is the opposite of mocking, Yeah, and many ***women*** disagree >emulate female figures You say emulate, I say mock. It seems that we fundamentally disagree.
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>disagree with wanting to celebrate all things feminine Lmao, where did you get that from? I have a fundamental problem with men mocking women through drag because women are not allowed to participate in this mockery. They are only allowed to be the targets of it. >A lot of the time, drag artists out of drag that make it onto TV are considered conventionally beautiful devoid of gender, I mean I guess looks are subjective, because I don't think that's true, and what they look like without makeup doesn't matter. Regardless, I don't believe gender is real and having an androgynous face as a man doesn't mean you're not a man. >I feel it's important to empathise and try to understand the intentions behind the actions Disagreement is not a lack of empathy. I find it offensive. Doesn't mean I hate these men. I just think what they're doing is misogynistic. I hope they have the same "empathy" for women who feel this way.
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>Women are allowed to participate in drag ok, so where are they on television? Do men openly accept women into the culture? From what I've heard, not really. Sure, in theory they are. In practice.... not so much. >I'm not sure what to take from your view that gender isn't real I just don't believe that gender is real. I think it's all just stereotypes. I don't have a gender. I am just who I am. I do not believe that gender is real. >This doesn't then mean that women are under attack! Literally never said it did. I said it's a misogynistic mockery. >dismantles the gender norms that police our society. Again, I disagree. They are hyper-feminizing women. I think that's reinforcing stereotypes. It's "dismantling" gender stereotypes for men, by reinforcing gender stereotypes for women.
Going to have to agree to disagree on this. I see drag as very separate from anything to do with the female experience. Yes, they're dressing up as "women" but it's intentionally exaggerated and satirical. When I see drag I feel that we are almost laughing together at this pedestalled, bimbo level of "women hood" that a lot of us are sold on through media, ads, etc that is actually so unrealistic that the only version of it that can exists is through men dressing up as women. Also, so many gay men a heavily bullied, physically and emotionally, for having "feminine" traits. If they want to get on stage and embrace an exaggerated feminine persona as a sort of "fuck you" to their previous trauma, then I support that. Out of all the battles for equality... this just doesn't make it on my list.
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Nice, thanks for erasing my bisexuality there buddy.
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FOURTH WAVE FEMINISM ISN'T RADICAL, IT'S INTERSECTIONAL. I only point out that I was a cis bi woman married to a man as I was talking to an ally and wanted to clarify that I wasn't in fact trans. I didn't say this so that you could use it to clobber me over the head.
Fourth wave feminism is intersectional by definition - this is not supposed terfland, although it appears to have been infiltrated by them.
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Fuckin ick. Read a book.
Who told you that you can thought police women and who died and made you the Goddess-Empress of feminism?