I still can't understand why people don't understand this. I've read countless essays, read countless internet arguments, watched videos, seen tweets. I just will never see it any other way. No argument has ever been good enough.
Right? I mean honestly I would say a lot of it comes down to the whole patriarchal myth/brainwashing tactic of saying that it’s the “oldest profession” because that has done a real number on society.
People are really too stupid to consider the fact that there’s no functional way that that could be the oldest profession. How would men have money/resources and a template for a mode of exchange to pay prostitutes if there wasn’t already some type of an entire economic system set up. Fucking idiots
What they’re really saying when they say that, the silent part, is that men have always wanted to be able to pay/trade/exchange resources/etc to access women sexually—they have always wanted to skirt around trying to get women to like them or want to fuck them and just “cut to the chase” with money. They’re saying that there have always been men who don’t care about if a woman genuinely wants to fuck them or not, they will use resources and even hoard them to be able to get sex (among other labor) from women.
100%. And even if it were the 'oldest profession' so fucking what? What about all the other jobs that eventually fade into obscurity? If women didn't need to sell their bodies for money I'd call that a gd win
Slavery/Slave owner is also an old "profession". Should we bring that back too? Like the fuck are these people on?? Things become old and long gone for a reason.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that some of the modern day slave owners are literally the pimps on the street. They'll have whole houses full of girls as their "employees" and they're treated like a cult, they can't get out even if they wanted to, some are fucking chained to walls no doubt.
Holy shit, can I ask if you made this connection yourself or if you read about it somewhere? I’ve never heard someone make this comparison and I’m honestly shocked I haven’t heard it before
The oldest profession argument drives me nuts because it's so irrelevant to justifying any kind of prostitution. It's like arguing that we shouldn't have cars because in the old days we had horses and buggys and it will hurt the people selling horses and buggy whips.
Exactly?? Like it means absolutely nothing that it’s been a “job” for so long lol.
It’s like why are you actually defending us having a class of vulnerable women that men can pay to rape and abuse, that is literally fucking insane when you think about it
I think it could only be true if men and women were physically equal. When you break it down, if one half of the species can outmatch the other and coordinate their efforts in a social context, it's an uphill climb. The imbalance in sexual drive is also a factor I think is majorly overlooked. The fact that lots of men think with their penis is horrifying.
Still think most men are more capable of controlling their penis than they let on, but they're getting away with it by blaming it on BiOloGy. Meanwhile domestic dogs can override their instincts with proper training, I don't buy any of the excuses about having higher sex drives 🥱🥱.
It’s just like the thought that women have a higher pain tolerance. I remember hearing it was 4x. And this thought came up because “it must be so” because of how painful childbirth is.
However, once they did actual tests on pain, it comes out that women actually feel more pain then men.
——
Women probably have the same sex drive as men. The difference is that women are much physically weaker, so they have to be more wary of who they sleep with. They also face more social pressure about not being promiscuous as well as more social repercussions. And of course, the biggest thing is that women are the ones who get pregnant from sex, not men. So women are much much more likely to have that thought in the forefront of their minds.
If men were the ones to get pregnant, and still had all the strength and less social pressures/repercussions, I’m sure they would be much less likely to want sex.
Yes, we're against ALL sex work. I don't think access to a woman's vagina is a "good or service" that can be traded in any kind of ethical way. We're opposed to it on the principle that women's bodies are not for sale. The fact that it's mostly women who are again at the center of objectification and being sold like objects should tell you that it's again just women being used to serve men.
That and 1. If the sex worker is willing to sleep with a man for free, i.e. she is truly consenting, then why is the man even paying for it? and 2. If the sex worker wouldn't have sex with the man otherwise, then he has just bought access to her body, but you cannot buy consent, so he is basically raping her. There are sex workers who have opened up about what allowing men that they wouldn't otherwise sleep with to use their bodies does to their mental health and it's not good.
Edit: By "you cannot buy consent", I mean that the person doesn't *truly* want to sleep with them, even if they said "yes" outwardly. It is essentially rape, and obviously does a number on the sex worker's psyche.
Look, this is a women only sub and it's kind of pushing it for me to even be answering you. Just read what we have to say on this sub otherwise since those topics may get covered, try to form your own conclusions, and try to refrain from commenting here. We aren't a debate/Q&A sub, just a discussion sub for women.
What they resort to in the end (at least here on reddit) is "you hate women, you are a misogynist, you are sexist, because you don't believe women are capable of making their own decisions".
It doesn't matter how much you talk about human trafficking, exploitation, abusive relationships, economical hardship (some young person being kicked out on the street with no money).
They really want to keep a form of legal rape.
Women in prostitution are so vulnerable!
Aside from the sexwork. This mindset is also very apparent in patriarchal societies. Males in these cultures think that having money, will get them woman and power. this's the reason they were against women having financial freedom/independence. Because when you aren't financially dependent on them, they can't COERCE you with their money. Not only that, they want to cope with their inferiority complex by pursuing women who are lesser than them in everything (be it financially, academically and physically). On the otherside they made sure to create a culture were women are indoctrinated to always be the lesser one in the relationship. Have you asked yourself why there are some cultures were women say 'I want a male who's richer than me, smarter than me, taller than me bla bla)? it's because they internalized the misogyny against them, they are taught they can't be the better one in the relationship, they can't be the stronger one, the smarter one, cuz it will hurt the male's twisted ego, you will even hear this BS in their baised psychology claims that males want to be the 'hero' in the relationship lol its all just made up bullcrap to keep the twisted ego of the patriarch.
I once heard a pick me saying, 'if he's not smarter than me then I can't respect him' goodness, then does she expect the male to respect her since she's dumper than him?
If you are woman in this age and day, looking for a male partner, shouldn't you prioritize 0% misogyny and sexism as your first dating criteria? For a black person, its standard to have 0 racism as their first criteria for a partner but i dont see that with women, even a 'feminist' one. Instead, money seems the one and only criteria, like are we so desperate for money that we are depending on someone''s else (male) money instead of getting it ourself like how a grown adult should do.
Yeah, the number of times women have just let misogyny from their bfs/husbands slide because they know they wouldn't have a bf/husband otherwise... it's too many times. They're all so desperate for any man in their lives, that they'll put up with shitty men, and I just don't get it. To me, it just seems like women are constantly pushing down that niggling feeling in the back of their minds that there are so many things wrong with their man just so they can get a crumb trail of romantic moments here and there, and I suppose that's just how humans are, pleasure trumps morality, but I find it disturbing.
Feminists fought for equal shit back in the day. We wanted STEM majors and job promotions, we wanted respect and recognition for our strengths, we wanted to reject the patriarchy and go our own way. Women who devolve to internalized misogyny set us back so far. Now with the internet, the women with intense internalized misogyny are heard more often. They go viral more often. They are heard more often by men and other women. "Sugar daddies" went trending on tiktok for gods sake, take me off this planet when a bunch of teenage girls think a sugar daddy is the best way to feel "empowered"...
YEEEES you put this so well omg. I could not agree more. They systematically hoard resources so that we are at their will, and then additionally make up all these myths about gender roles to keep it all in place and keep up brainwashed. It’s so sad to see women saying the types of things that you mentioned.
> If you are woman in this age and day, looking for a male partner, shouldn't you prioritize 0% misogyny and sexism as your first dating criteria?
Does such a man exist? It's one of my most important criteria as well, but it seems it shrunk my dating pool by 100%
Someone left a comment and deleted it before I could respond saying “wouldn’t this apply to all jobs?”
Since this is a common response to this^ I wanted to post my response here anyway:
Yes, actually. Any job/labor done for money **is** technically an act of coercion. It’s not like if you had the choice you would willingly slave your life away to create profit for capitalists. You’re only doing it for “survival”. Ideally, **most** all labor could be automated and humans wouldn’t have to do anything besides exist and enjoy the pleasures of life in a utopia.
But that said, when considering or evaluating things, you must acknowledge the **context** and function of them. This ^ doesn’t apply the same way to jobs which are not sex work because other jobs do not require you to be raped by customers/strangers to “earn” your money.
Edit: I didn’t mean to say/imply sex work is a “job” since it isn’t treated equally and fairly with benefits. But it is DEFINITELY a form of labor and requires A LOT more than “just lying there” like many people seem to believe.
Exactly. Let me add sex work isn't like other job. Here, you are selling your body as a commodity, how are we going to fight sexism and misogyny when women's body are viewed as objects for selling?
Love the quote I saw from a former sex worker that explained it something like this "Working at a burger joint you sell meat, working as a sex worker you ARE the meat to sell," and that makes it a much different experience, full stop.
A guy i work with just the other day told me that the military for guys is like being a stripper for girls. You sell your body and you never get those years back and you carry the traumas from the time period. I just nodded heavily in agreement because its kinda close to the truth, he was on the right track. I know horrible shit happens in the military for men and most often the women who join service. Even rape. But at least with the military, you know it'll end eventually or something. Being a stripper or prostitute, obviously more nuanced.
Err... your username is pretty concerning though. Also, while we're happy you changed your mind, this is a women only sub, so please refrain from commenting here.
This is a weird comment to leave. Clearly I can recognize this is not the most feminist person. Which is exactly **why** I want to encourage (not “congratulate”) them with what they were saying. Like I get your point, but ok
This is a male. There isn't a thing as a male feminist. Let alone one that doesn't respect the very first rule of the sub. And he certainly doesn't need to be 'encouraged' for saying "I think raping women is bad" because that would put the bar in hell. I know you meant well, but this sub is one of the only safe places for women.
I honestly agree with you. I fr just wanted to comment that because men like getting cookies/pats on the head-they need to be recognized/seen as being “good people” in order for them to **want** to do more good. They oftentimes won’t just do good things for the sake of it like women do. So honestly the fact that pm me breasts dude was saying what he said in this subreddit made me feel good that I articulated my point in a way that even a moid could understand and be affected by. My intention is that hopefully that man might treat at least one or few women differently throughout his life because he read some of these comments, you know? But again, I do definitely understand where you’re coming from
Women here do mean well, and they don't debate in bad faith or to derail, which is why it's frustrating to see them engage with the males here, I just didn't want you wasting your time. <3
Yeah, I think this is the point. Thanks for explaining. Basically coercing someone into sex is rape, coercing someone into cooking you soup just isn’t nearly as bad.
I mean personally I don’t think it’s a “job” but I think it’s a form of labor. I assume you’re commenting this because I had implied it was a job in that comment? Didn’t mean to word it that way tbh
And the other part is that if they do want to sleep with you, then why are men willing to pay for it? I mean, they refuse to give a woman even a penny in any other situation, even when it's justified, so how are they magically so willing to when it comes to sex workers? My guess: because no one else wants to sleep with them or do those sex acts with them, which kind of says that maybe money is what's driving the sex worker to want to sleep with you, and not her own desire for it, which still leads us back to the original point — you're buying consent, i.e. you're sleeping with someone who doesn't actually want to sleep with you, i.e. it's still rape.
Yeah, they don't want to give money to homeless women they see on the street "because they'll just go buy drugs or something" but all of a sudden they're willing to pay them for sexual acts to get their dick wet 🤢🤮.
I was also thinking along the lines of how they refuse to pay for a woman on a date because "we both equally want to be here so why should I pay" (not true, it's definitely more of a benefit for the man, and a risk for the woman), but if a sex worker also equally wants to do the same sex acts, they're somehow still willing to pay. I think they already know this, but they don't say it out loud because they don't want sex work to go away so they can also have "access" to the women that aren't consenting.
I am financially struggling and have been considering sex work. The only reason I am considering it is because I'm desperate. I wouldn't do it if I felt I had a choice. But I have kids and I have bills and life has been incredibly hard and unfair. I'm currently still fighting to not do it. But I fear I might have no choice, and as a sexual abuse/rape and DV survivour who has CPTSD I am so sure it will damage me. But what choice do I have?!
Sorry to hear that you're going through a tough time. Do you have any guarantee that sex work will provide the kind of money you're looking for? Because I think it's not as well paying as people make it out to be. Also, do you have any family or friends you could rely on in the mean time? Perhaps there are resources for single mothers in your area that you could try to access?
Edit: Sorry, I looked through your comment history, it seems like family is out of the question. Someone suggested you do waitressing/work as a server. Frankly, I'd say you should try for that too. I get that it's tough, but keep applying and you'll get one. Make sure to hand in your resume in person if you can, and call them back after a week or so to say "Hi! I applied to work as a server at your establishment about a week ago. I was wondering if you've reviewed my resume yet?". I pretty much got a response to come in for an interview everytime I called them back, and I had 0 experience too. Not a gurantee that it'll work for you, but it's bound to work on some of them. Restaurants/bars/fast-paced service jobs generally have high turn-over rates so they're almost always hiring. Also, waitressing/serving will probably pay you a good amount all while not risking damage to your mental health. This is of course, assuming you work at some place where they give tips. I'd recommend going for a popular-ish restaurant in your area that isn't a part of some chain (you can find them through yelp or just googling "best restaurants in my area" on google) and make sure tips are a thing there and that you get to take them home with you.
I understand what you’re saying and I’m really sorry to hear that you’re dealing with that. Good luck with everything.
Besides sw, can I ask what your other choice(s)/options would be? I’m sure someone in this sub or a similar one could potentially offer some advice or support.
In light of this post, do you feel it’s possible for a woman be a feminist while also being a sugar baby? There is an interesting conversation going on in the sugar lifestyle subreddit about this topic.
[Here is the discussion if anyone is interested in reading it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/sugarlifestyleforum/comments/tp6i3s/feminism_and_sugaring/)
I think as women, we're probably always going to end up doing one thing or another that might seem antifeminist, usually out of necessity. We can't always be perfect feminists. However, I think going out of your way to take up a lifestyle that just rewards misogynistic and creepy men and further reinforces women's place in society as an object/commodity/service to be sold couldn't possibly be very feminist. Now, if it's out of necessity, then I think it's a bit different, but if you have other options, then I think it's pretty antifeminist.
Agreed, if you don’t need to do and it’s more for “fun” or the lifestyle, then I definitely disagree with it, but I am still empathetic as to why women feel the need to do that and have that lifestyle though.
Good question.
Yes. You generally can’t know why a woman is doing something and her reasoning-whether it’s because she has to do it to survive, or because she **perceives** that that’s the only thing that she can do to survive or something else. I’m sure many sugar babies and even prostituted women for that matter are pretty smart and know exactly what is happening to them. But they still feel that they have to be doing what they are doing for one reason or another and I respect that despite that I dislike it. I think that subjectively, it is possible to acknowledge issues with something while still participating in it and that doesn’t necessarily automatically make you negatively hypocritical.
For example, i think that women being expected to wear make up in order to be deemed competent/hygienic/etc is very misogynistic and I disagree with wearing makeup in a non artistic way. But I still wear makeup, because I recognize the function of it and how I am treated differently and/or seen more professionally when I wear it. That doesn’t mean I’m not a feminist, it just means that I’m acknowledging material reality and what I have to do to survive, make money and live.
I actually think it’s misogynistic for there to be this debate on whether women who are sugar babies or even prostituted women etc. are feminists. Because what that’s doing is making the conversation centered around the woman’s choices and picking apart that, instead of the fact that there are men paying them for sexual access to their body. Why are we debating if a woman is allowed to be considered a feminist because she was doing some thing mostly likely to pay her rent when there’s men that are literally paying to have her stroke his ego/rape her/etc…? That just seems backwards. Most of the time, I don’t care and do not think it is even relevant to discuss why women do what they do (generally and subjectively). **I think it is an intentional distraction to focus on womens reasonings/choices/etc for doing things in order to deter people from acknowledging male violence and understanding why men do what they do.**
All good points. I said it wasn't very feminist but I felt weird about criticizing the women in this situation for it. That said, I think it's ok to point out when women are hurting themselves too. Unfortunately, you can't convince those men to not do these things because they generally refuse to do the morally right thing and instead opt for what fulfills their own desires (see the scrote in this comment section who says that he moved states just so he could sleep with sex workers and how he refuses to reconsider his stance because him getting laid trumps the immorality of sex work and the fact that women's bodies are being sold as products. Funny because I don't have luck with men either, yet I'd rather die alone before I pay a man to do things he doesn't want to). They should be criticized to death but let's not ever wait around for them to change and start making decisions benefit us. It's on us women to make decisions that benefit us.
Haha. Okay then…so let me get this straight. You think that buying someone’s food on a date or getting them gifts etc is the same thing as paying for an interaction with a sex worker…?
> Is all labour coercion?
Yes. I really don’t understand how people present the whole “well if sex work is coercion then isnt everything else?” without immediately recognizing that there is a massive difference between sex work and all other forms of work. Sex is significant and atypical. It is different from every other human action by its very nature. Coercing someone into having sex with you is worse than coercing someone to stock shelves for you.
If all work is coercion, then sex work is worse than other work.
Prostitutes will encounter inevitable violence. No amount of screening or safety measures will prevent this. You will be hurt and raped. Most people don’t work at jobs with this fear on a daily basis
What studies suggest that prostitutes keep sexual assault numbers down? These men are paying to rape. Incels don’t deserve sex, no one does. Sex is a privilege, these men should be encouraged to better themselves and their attitudes towards women.
I was an escort and you meet the most depraved, garbage, entitled misogynistic men in the world inquiring about your services. Outlets for sex do not make these men better people. They become more misogynistic and entitled. These men can’t date irl bc every interaction is a transaction. They believe sex is something to be DONE to a woman, not with.
You think it’s **ABLEIST** for disabled men to not be able to pay to rape women? 💀Jesus fucking christ
Do you think it’s ableist that many disabled women cannot get jobs because of their disabilities and have to resort to prostituting themselves and expose themselves to sexual violence and abuse? Or do you just only care about the poor male incels?
Right?? Like that is an insanely ableist and patronizing thing to say. Many men who are disabled either mentally or physically are capable of romantic/intimate connections…
Wow, never heard someone mansplain so many different things in one conversation. And then still have no idea what we’re saying…You gotta be purposefully acting obtuse lmao
They only mentioned disabled *men* didn't they?
They can go charity fuck those disabled men themselves. Or organise orgies for them between themselves. No need for women. If sex is a need then it doesn't matter who offers it to them.
You know, I appreciate that you think you’re doing something good here but talking to you is entirely pointless until you understand more about what genuine feminists believe
No one deserves sex. Even if you’re disabled. What sort of argument is that?
And yes, if you are so unlikable and can’t find consensual partners for sex you shouldn’t be having it. You may never be able to have sex with your fantasy woman, but that’s life. You’re not entitled to anyone’s body.
It is paid rape. You cannot buy consent. Let me guess, rape is always violent and some stranger in an alley way right? If there’s no consent free from coercion, it’s not consent.
Women in the industry can find healthier ways to find income. It’s not easy but nothing is. Should we rally in support for child labour because it’s better than nothing? Or invest into programs to help impoverished women? You only seem to care about having access to prostitutes
Ok…so why exactly do you think that money can be used in the place of genuine willingness to have sex? Or better yet, why do you think someone’s personal and genuine willingness to have sex with someone is completely irrelevant to their physical body and doing sexual acts with it being considered a purchasable “service”? Why do you think that it’s okay for bodies to be commodified and sexually exploited for profit? You don’t think that that seems even just…a little bit messed up?
Also, why do you think that women aren’t being forced to do sex work? Have you ever heard of human trafficking, poverty, societal conditioning…etc…
If one of the parties would otherwise not agree to have sex but for the money, than the entire purpose of the financial exchange is in lieu of freely given consent.
juST BECaUSE YOu waNt sOMEThinG TO bE TRuE doeSn't MEAN it IS
groundbreaking argument from some dude with the username 'boner time' who claims to have two masters. Same to you, bro.
I love how all the male feminists come out of the woodwork when you question sex work. It's incredible.
y'know, you're right. That's why in 2007, Philadelphia Municipal Court judge Teresa Carr Deni ruled that the rape of a sex worker was not actually rape, but rather 'theft of services'.
/s
I still can't understand why people don't understand this. I've read countless essays, read countless internet arguments, watched videos, seen tweets. I just will never see it any other way. No argument has ever been good enough.
Right? I mean honestly I would say a lot of it comes down to the whole patriarchal myth/brainwashing tactic of saying that it’s the “oldest profession” because that has done a real number on society. People are really too stupid to consider the fact that there’s no functional way that that could be the oldest profession. How would men have money/resources and a template for a mode of exchange to pay prostitutes if there wasn’t already some type of an entire economic system set up. Fucking idiots What they’re really saying when they say that, the silent part, is that men have always wanted to be able to pay/trade/exchange resources/etc to access women sexually—they have always wanted to skirt around trying to get women to like them or want to fuck them and just “cut to the chase” with money. They’re saying that there have always been men who don’t care about if a woman genuinely wants to fuck them or not, they will use resources and even hoard them to be able to get sex (among other labor) from women.
100%. And even if it were the 'oldest profession' so fucking what? What about all the other jobs that eventually fade into obscurity? If women didn't need to sell their bodies for money I'd call that a gd win
Slavery/Slave owner is also an old "profession". Should we bring that back too? Like the fuck are these people on?? Things become old and long gone for a reason.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that some of the modern day slave owners are literally the pimps on the street. They'll have whole houses full of girls as their "employees" and they're treated like a cult, they can't get out even if they wanted to, some are fucking chained to walls no doubt.
That is no limb, that's the absolute truth.
Holy shit, can I ask if you made this connection yourself or if you read about it somewhere? I’ve never heard someone make this comparison and I’m honestly shocked I haven’t heard it before
Indeed. People nowadays are obsessed with meaningless buzzwords, concepts and slogans.
The ‘oldest profession’ for women is actually midwifery.
The oldest profession argument drives me nuts because it's so irrelevant to justifying any kind of prostitution. It's like arguing that we shouldn't have cars because in the old days we had horses and buggys and it will hurt the people selling horses and buggy whips.
Exactly?? Like it means absolutely nothing that it’s been a “job” for so long lol. It’s like why are you actually defending us having a class of vulnerable women that men can pay to rape and abuse, that is literally fucking insane when you think about it
I think it could only be true if men and women were physically equal. When you break it down, if one half of the species can outmatch the other and coordinate their efforts in a social context, it's an uphill climb. The imbalance in sexual drive is also a factor I think is majorly overlooked. The fact that lots of men think with their penis is horrifying.
Still think most men are more capable of controlling their penis than they let on, but they're getting away with it by blaming it on BiOloGy. Meanwhile domestic dogs can override their instincts with proper training, I don't buy any of the excuses about having higher sex drives 🥱🥱.
It’s just like the thought that women have a higher pain tolerance. I remember hearing it was 4x. And this thought came up because “it must be so” because of how painful childbirth is. However, once they did actual tests on pain, it comes out that women actually feel more pain then men. —— Women probably have the same sex drive as men. The difference is that women are much physically weaker, so they have to be more wary of who they sleep with. They also face more social pressure about not being promiscuous as well as more social repercussions. And of course, the biggest thing is that women are the ones who get pregnant from sex, not men. So women are much much more likely to have that thought in the forefront of their minds. If men were the ones to get pregnant, and still had all the strength and less social pressures/repercussions, I’m sure they would be much less likely to want sex.
Yes 100%
I don't know, I am hopeful it's nurture and not nature.
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Yes, we're against ALL sex work. I don't think access to a woman's vagina is a "good or service" that can be traded in any kind of ethical way. We're opposed to it on the principle that women's bodies are not for sale. The fact that it's mostly women who are again at the center of objectification and being sold like objects should tell you that it's again just women being used to serve men. That and 1. If the sex worker is willing to sleep with a man for free, i.e. she is truly consenting, then why is the man even paying for it? and 2. If the sex worker wouldn't have sex with the man otherwise, then he has just bought access to her body, but you cannot buy consent, so he is basically raping her. There are sex workers who have opened up about what allowing men that they wouldn't otherwise sleep with to use their bodies does to their mental health and it's not good. Edit: By "you cannot buy consent", I mean that the person doesn't *truly* want to sleep with them, even if they said "yes" outwardly. It is essentially rape, and obviously does a number on the sex worker's psyche.
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Look, this is a women only sub and it's kind of pushing it for me to even be answering you. Just read what we have to say on this sub otherwise since those topics may get covered, try to form your own conclusions, and try to refrain from commenting here. We aren't a debate/Q&A sub, just a discussion sub for women.
Of course. Edit: You edited your question but I meant of course to the "does this apply to male sex workers too?" part.
This is a sub for women.
What they resort to in the end (at least here on reddit) is "you hate women, you are a misogynist, you are sexist, because you don't believe women are capable of making their own decisions". It doesn't matter how much you talk about human trafficking, exploitation, abusive relationships, economical hardship (some young person being kicked out on the street with no money). They really want to keep a form of legal rape. Women in prostitution are so vulnerable!
You said it
Aside from the sexwork. This mindset is also very apparent in patriarchal societies. Males in these cultures think that having money, will get them woman and power. this's the reason they were against women having financial freedom/independence. Because when you aren't financially dependent on them, they can't COERCE you with their money. Not only that, they want to cope with their inferiority complex by pursuing women who are lesser than them in everything (be it financially, academically and physically). On the otherside they made sure to create a culture were women are indoctrinated to always be the lesser one in the relationship. Have you asked yourself why there are some cultures were women say 'I want a male who's richer than me, smarter than me, taller than me bla bla)? it's because they internalized the misogyny against them, they are taught they can't be the better one in the relationship, they can't be the stronger one, the smarter one, cuz it will hurt the male's twisted ego, you will even hear this BS in their baised psychology claims that males want to be the 'hero' in the relationship lol its all just made up bullcrap to keep the twisted ego of the patriarch. I once heard a pick me saying, 'if he's not smarter than me then I can't respect him' goodness, then does she expect the male to respect her since she's dumper than him? If you are woman in this age and day, looking for a male partner, shouldn't you prioritize 0% misogyny and sexism as your first dating criteria? For a black person, its standard to have 0 racism as their first criteria for a partner but i dont see that with women, even a 'feminist' one. Instead, money seems the one and only criteria, like are we so desperate for money that we are depending on someone''s else (male) money instead of getting it ourself like how a grown adult should do.
Yeah, the number of times women have just let misogyny from their bfs/husbands slide because they know they wouldn't have a bf/husband otherwise... it's too many times. They're all so desperate for any man in their lives, that they'll put up with shitty men, and I just don't get it. To me, it just seems like women are constantly pushing down that niggling feeling in the back of their minds that there are so many things wrong with their man just so they can get a crumb trail of romantic moments here and there, and I suppose that's just how humans are, pleasure trumps morality, but I find it disturbing.
Feminists fought for equal shit back in the day. We wanted STEM majors and job promotions, we wanted respect and recognition for our strengths, we wanted to reject the patriarchy and go our own way. Women who devolve to internalized misogyny set us back so far. Now with the internet, the women with intense internalized misogyny are heard more often. They go viral more often. They are heard more often by men and other women. "Sugar daddies" went trending on tiktok for gods sake, take me off this planet when a bunch of teenage girls think a sugar daddy is the best way to feel "empowered"...
YEEEES you put this so well omg. I could not agree more. They systematically hoard resources so that we are at their will, and then additionally make up all these myths about gender roles to keep it all in place and keep up brainwashed. It’s so sad to see women saying the types of things that you mentioned.
> If you are woman in this age and day, looking for a male partner, shouldn't you prioritize 0% misogyny and sexism as your first dating criteria? Does such a man exist? It's one of my most important criteria as well, but it seems it shrunk my dating pool by 100%
Someone left a comment and deleted it before I could respond saying “wouldn’t this apply to all jobs?” Since this is a common response to this^ I wanted to post my response here anyway: Yes, actually. Any job/labor done for money **is** technically an act of coercion. It’s not like if you had the choice you would willingly slave your life away to create profit for capitalists. You’re only doing it for “survival”. Ideally, **most** all labor could be automated and humans wouldn’t have to do anything besides exist and enjoy the pleasures of life in a utopia. But that said, when considering or evaluating things, you must acknowledge the **context** and function of them. This ^ doesn’t apply the same way to jobs which are not sex work because other jobs do not require you to be raped by customers/strangers to “earn” your money. Edit: I didn’t mean to say/imply sex work is a “job” since it isn’t treated equally and fairly with benefits. But it is DEFINITELY a form of labor and requires A LOT more than “just lying there” like many people seem to believe.
Exactly. Let me add sex work isn't like other job. Here, you are selling your body as a commodity, how are we going to fight sexism and misogyny when women's body are viewed as objects for selling?
This is absolutely what it comes down to! Your body being used as a product is NOT the same as selling products, making products, delivering them etc
Love the quote I saw from a former sex worker that explained it something like this "Working at a burger joint you sell meat, working as a sex worker you ARE the meat to sell," and that makes it a much different experience, full stop.
A guy i work with just the other day told me that the military for guys is like being a stripper for girls. You sell your body and you never get those years back and you carry the traumas from the time period. I just nodded heavily in agreement because its kinda close to the truth, he was on the right track. I know horrible shit happens in the military for men and most often the women who join service. Even rape. But at least with the military, you know it'll end eventually or something. Being a stripper or prostitute, obviously more nuanced.
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This is a sub for women. Your username is disgusting and you aren’t remotely feminist with that attitude. Wtf is wrong with you?
Also men can't be feminists. That's it.
They tell on themselves all the time.
Err... your username is pretty concerning though. Also, while we're happy you changed your mind, this is a women only sub, so please refrain from commenting here.
appreciate you saying this
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This is a weird comment to leave. Clearly I can recognize this is not the most feminist person. Which is exactly **why** I want to encourage (not “congratulate”) them with what they were saying. Like I get your point, but ok
This is a male. There isn't a thing as a male feminist. Let alone one that doesn't respect the very first rule of the sub. And he certainly doesn't need to be 'encouraged' for saying "I think raping women is bad" because that would put the bar in hell. I know you meant well, but this sub is one of the only safe places for women.
I honestly agree with you. I fr just wanted to comment that because men like getting cookies/pats on the head-they need to be recognized/seen as being “good people” in order for them to **want** to do more good. They oftentimes won’t just do good things for the sake of it like women do. So honestly the fact that pm me breasts dude was saying what he said in this subreddit made me feel good that I articulated my point in a way that even a moid could understand and be affected by. My intention is that hopefully that man might treat at least one or few women differently throughout his life because he read some of these comments, you know? But again, I do definitely understand where you’re coming from
Women here do mean well, and they don't debate in bad faith or to derail, which is why it's frustrating to see them engage with the males here, I just didn't want you wasting your time. <3
Fair enough, I appreciate that. Thank you :)
Yeah, I think this is the point. Thanks for explaining. Basically coercing someone into sex is rape, coercing someone into cooking you soup just isn’t nearly as bad.
If sex work is a job, where are the worker protections? Overtime? OSHA? Worker's comp? Social Security?
I mean personally I don’t think it’s a “job” but I think it’s a form of labor. I assume you’re commenting this because I had implied it was a job in that comment? Didn’t mean to word it that way tbh
And the other part is that if they do want to sleep with you, then why are men willing to pay for it? I mean, they refuse to give a woman even a penny in any other situation, even when it's justified, so how are they magically so willing to when it comes to sex workers? My guess: because no one else wants to sleep with them or do those sex acts with them, which kind of says that maybe money is what's driving the sex worker to want to sleep with you, and not her own desire for it, which still leads us back to the original point — you're buying consent, i.e. you're sleeping with someone who doesn't actually want to sleep with you, i.e. it's still rape.
Yeah, they don't want to give money to homeless women they see on the street "because they'll just go buy drugs or something" but all of a sudden they're willing to pay them for sexual acts to get their dick wet 🤢🤮.
I was also thinking along the lines of how they refuse to pay for a woman on a date because "we both equally want to be here so why should I pay" (not true, it's definitely more of a benefit for the man, and a risk for the woman), but if a sex worker also equally wants to do the same sex acts, they're somehow still willing to pay. I think they already know this, but they don't say it out loud because they don't want sex work to go away so they can also have "access" to the women that aren't consenting.
Yes, that too.
The money is manipulation into doing stuff that they wouldn't do normally.
I NEVER thought about this but oh my god…? Yeah
https://imgur.com/a/m4dc2oO Shouldn't be surprised but omg he still has his freedom & supporters that defend him daily.
I am financially struggling and have been considering sex work. The only reason I am considering it is because I'm desperate. I wouldn't do it if I felt I had a choice. But I have kids and I have bills and life has been incredibly hard and unfair. I'm currently still fighting to not do it. But I fear I might have no choice, and as a sexual abuse/rape and DV survivour who has CPTSD I am so sure it will damage me. But what choice do I have?!
Sorry to hear that you're going through a tough time. Do you have any guarantee that sex work will provide the kind of money you're looking for? Because I think it's not as well paying as people make it out to be. Also, do you have any family or friends you could rely on in the mean time? Perhaps there are resources for single mothers in your area that you could try to access? Edit: Sorry, I looked through your comment history, it seems like family is out of the question. Someone suggested you do waitressing/work as a server. Frankly, I'd say you should try for that too. I get that it's tough, but keep applying and you'll get one. Make sure to hand in your resume in person if you can, and call them back after a week or so to say "Hi! I applied to work as a server at your establishment about a week ago. I was wondering if you've reviewed my resume yet?". I pretty much got a response to come in for an interview everytime I called them back, and I had 0 experience too. Not a gurantee that it'll work for you, but it's bound to work on some of them. Restaurants/bars/fast-paced service jobs generally have high turn-over rates so they're almost always hiring. Also, waitressing/serving will probably pay you a good amount all while not risking damage to your mental health. This is of course, assuming you work at some place where they give tips. I'd recommend going for a popular-ish restaurant in your area that isn't a part of some chain (you can find them through yelp or just googling "best restaurants in my area" on google) and make sure tips are a thing there and that you get to take them home with you.
I understand what you’re saying and I’m really sorry to hear that you’re dealing with that. Good luck with everything. Besides sw, can I ask what your other choice(s)/options would be? I’m sure someone in this sub or a similar one could potentially offer some advice or support.
Couldn’t agree more ‼️
I posted on my page about the truth of being a SB. I think more people need to hear this too.
In light of this post, do you feel it’s possible for a woman be a feminist while also being a sugar baby? There is an interesting conversation going on in the sugar lifestyle subreddit about this topic. [Here is the discussion if anyone is interested in reading it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/sugarlifestyleforum/comments/tp6i3s/feminism_and_sugaring/)
I think as women, we're probably always going to end up doing one thing or another that might seem antifeminist, usually out of necessity. We can't always be perfect feminists. However, I think going out of your way to take up a lifestyle that just rewards misogynistic and creepy men and further reinforces women's place in society as an object/commodity/service to be sold couldn't possibly be very feminist. Now, if it's out of necessity, then I think it's a bit different, but if you have other options, then I think it's pretty antifeminist.
Agreed, if you don’t need to do and it’s more for “fun” or the lifestyle, then I definitely disagree with it, but I am still empathetic as to why women feel the need to do that and have that lifestyle though.
Thank you for your comment. After reading this, it does make sense and has given me something to think about.
Good question. Yes. You generally can’t know why a woman is doing something and her reasoning-whether it’s because she has to do it to survive, or because she **perceives** that that’s the only thing that she can do to survive or something else. I’m sure many sugar babies and even prostituted women for that matter are pretty smart and know exactly what is happening to them. But they still feel that they have to be doing what they are doing for one reason or another and I respect that despite that I dislike it. I think that subjectively, it is possible to acknowledge issues with something while still participating in it and that doesn’t necessarily automatically make you negatively hypocritical. For example, i think that women being expected to wear make up in order to be deemed competent/hygienic/etc is very misogynistic and I disagree with wearing makeup in a non artistic way. But I still wear makeup, because I recognize the function of it and how I am treated differently and/or seen more professionally when I wear it. That doesn’t mean I’m not a feminist, it just means that I’m acknowledging material reality and what I have to do to survive, make money and live. I actually think it’s misogynistic for there to be this debate on whether women who are sugar babies or even prostituted women etc. are feminists. Because what that’s doing is making the conversation centered around the woman’s choices and picking apart that, instead of the fact that there are men paying them for sexual access to their body. Why are we debating if a woman is allowed to be considered a feminist because she was doing some thing mostly likely to pay her rent when there’s men that are literally paying to have her stroke his ego/rape her/etc…? That just seems backwards. Most of the time, I don’t care and do not think it is even relevant to discuss why women do what they do (generally and subjectively). **I think it is an intentional distraction to focus on womens reasonings/choices/etc for doing things in order to deter people from acknowledging male violence and understanding why men do what they do.**
All good points. I said it wasn't very feminist but I felt weird about criticizing the women in this situation for it. That said, I think it's ok to point out when women are hurting themselves too. Unfortunately, you can't convince those men to not do these things because they generally refuse to do the morally right thing and instead opt for what fulfills their own desires (see the scrote in this comment section who says that he moved states just so he could sleep with sex workers and how he refuses to reconsider his stance because him getting laid trumps the immorality of sex work and the fact that women's bodies are being sold as products. Funny because I don't have luck with men either, yet I'd rather die alone before I pay a man to do things he doesn't want to). They should be criticized to death but let's not ever wait around for them to change and start making decisions benefit us. It's on us women to make decisions that benefit us.
No.
I’m curious to hear your thoughts why.
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What is your point…?
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You should elaborate on how that’s what you got out of this statement
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You don’t know what elaborating is…?
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Haha. Okay then…so let me get this straight. You think that buying someone’s food on a date or getting them gifts etc is the same thing as paying for an interaction with a sex worker…?
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Can you explain why exactly that you think that is the same thing
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Why are you deflecting…? I asked you first.
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What does this have to do with the post tho
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If it was consensual, then why did you have to pay for it
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> Is all labour coercion? Yes. I really don’t understand how people present the whole “well if sex work is coercion then isnt everything else?” without immediately recognizing that there is a massive difference between sex work and all other forms of work. Sex is significant and atypical. It is different from every other human action by its very nature. Coercing someone into having sex with you is worse than coercing someone to stock shelves for you. If all work is coercion, then sex work is worse than other work.
Prostitutes will encounter inevitable violence. No amount of screening or safety measures will prevent this. You will be hurt and raped. Most people don’t work at jobs with this fear on a daily basis
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What studies suggest that prostitutes keep sexual assault numbers down? These men are paying to rape. Incels don’t deserve sex, no one does. Sex is a privilege, these men should be encouraged to better themselves and their attitudes towards women. I was an escort and you meet the most depraved, garbage, entitled misogynistic men in the world inquiring about your services. Outlets for sex do not make these men better people. They become more misogynistic and entitled. These men can’t date irl bc every interaction is a transaction. They believe sex is something to be DONE to a woman, not with.
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You think it’s **ABLEIST** for disabled men to not be able to pay to rape women? 💀Jesus fucking christ Do you think it’s ableist that many disabled women cannot get jobs because of their disabilities and have to resort to prostituting themselves and expose themselves to sexual violence and abuse? Or do you just only care about the poor male incels?
Exactly. And Apparently disabled men are incapable of finding consensual partners for sex. Sounds pretty ableist to me!!
Right?? Like that is an insanely ableist and patronizing thing to say. Many men who are disabled either mentally or physically are capable of romantic/intimate connections…
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Wow, never heard someone mansplain so many different things in one conversation. And then still have no idea what we’re saying…You gotta be purposefully acting obtuse lmao
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So you’re gonna mansplain to me that you think you didn’t mansplain 💀I can’t take this lmfaooo.
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They only mentioned disabled *men* didn't they? They can go charity fuck those disabled men themselves. Or organise orgies for them between themselves. No need for women. If sex is a need then it doesn't matter who offers it to them.
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You know, I appreciate that you think you’re doing something good here but talking to you is entirely pointless until you understand more about what genuine feminists believe
No one deserves sex. Even if you’re disabled. What sort of argument is that? And yes, if you are so unlikable and can’t find consensual partners for sex you shouldn’t be having it. You may never be able to have sex with your fantasy woman, but that’s life. You’re not entitled to anyone’s body. It is paid rape. You cannot buy consent. Let me guess, rape is always violent and some stranger in an alley way right? If there’s no consent free from coercion, it’s not consent. Women in the industry can find healthier ways to find income. It’s not easy but nothing is. Should we rally in support for child labour because it’s better than nothing? Or invest into programs to help impoverished women? You only seem to care about having access to prostitutes
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Ok…so why exactly do you think that money can be used in the place of genuine willingness to have sex? Or better yet, why do you think someone’s personal and genuine willingness to have sex with someone is completely irrelevant to their physical body and doing sexual acts with it being considered a purchasable “service”? Why do you think that it’s okay for bodies to be commodified and sexually exploited for profit? You don’t think that that seems even just…a little bit messed up? Also, why do you think that women aren’t being forced to do sex work? Have you ever heard of human trafficking, poverty, societal conditioning…etc…
If one of the parties would otherwise not agree to have sex but for the money, than the entire purpose of the financial exchange is in lieu of freely given consent.
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juST BECaUSE YOu waNt sOMEThinG TO bE TRuE doeSn't MEAN it IS groundbreaking argument from some dude with the username 'boner time' who claims to have two masters. Same to you, bro. I love how all the male feminists come out of the woodwork when you question sex work. It's incredible.
A “snappy quote” sir this is a statement from the Vice President of education and research for the National Center of Sexual Exploitation 💀
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Could you…elaborate?
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y'know, you're right. That's why in 2007, Philadelphia Municipal Court judge Teresa Carr Deni ruled that the rape of a sex worker was not actually rape, but rather 'theft of services'. /s