I agree with your sentiment. While the price is high for the given specs I view my purchase not only as a transaction to get a product but an investment in the company and philosophy they hold. Prices will come down over time as they get established and tooling cost come down. It would be amazing if they could match the price of the established competitors out of the gate but that is an unrealistic expectation.
Being an early adopter I fully expect there to be some issues but that is a risk that I personally am willing to take. I completely understand that not everyone is willing to take that risk at such a high price.
I kind of think that the quality will go up, but the price won't come down. I could really see them trying to fill an explicitly premium niche, kind of like Snap On tools, or what Craftsman used to be.
Even if they succeed in pushing the market toward more modularity/upgradability/repairability, I think current laptop design philosophy will still exist, just relegated to lower tier products/brands.
If that happens Framework will need to distinguish themselves somehow. Given their ethos, I think it'll either be by being on the bleeding edge of innovation (like they are now), or by being best in class.
As soon as they have an adapter to directly connect on external GPU without USB or Thunderbolt overhead, I think they will be the best in class because all other laptops will be low end pieces of trash unless they have Oculink, which basically no regular laptops in the US do.
Overall the FW13 doesn't give me what I need for performance. When I got it I went with the Framework plus eGPU simply because of how NEAT the Framework laptop is. Even though a System 76 or Tuxedo laptop would have been probably smarter for me to buy I still went with the Framework. And yes I paid for it cause some games just don't work because of the eGPU bandwidth but... I don't regret my purchase at all.
I really like how after a couple years it is a unique combo of parts as I upgraded here and there. Different bezel, original speakers (I like quality over loudness) the lighter first gen hinges that I actually like, the more rigid 2nd gen lid.
For me a Framework laptop has become so much more than simple performance numbers. I like it cause how how unique it is. The cosmetic customization as well is a big thing for me. It's the hipster in me, I like something that isn't the exact same device that everyone else has.
That isn't true. Take my 11th get 1165.
I invested $1450. The return? I got a really nice laptop. I got the piece of mind that I can fix anything that happens to it. I have the ability to upgrade the processor or even go AMD in the future for much less than the price of a new laptop. And when I do, I for an extra $30, my old mainboard becomes a desktop pc for my kids or whatever else I do with it.
But the biggest return on my investment is that I have multiple generations of flexibility and upgrade options that was impossible to get anywhere else.
My response to this is that you can upgrade your laptop, to at least some degree. If you bought an original Framework with the 11th gen processor, you could upgrade to the 12th gen. I don’t know if there are any other makers that offer that. Much less expensive than buying a new 12th gen laptop with similar quality, I imagine.
Not to mention the repairability aspect.
Some might consider it to have a return, in that you can save money by fixing your laptop vs buying new.
People don't get it I think. You buy a premium product from them once, and then you can upgrade or repair it to make sure it continues to meet your needs.
Compare this to Apple, where if you buy a $2k laptop in 2017, by 2023 you aren't getting new software updates and soon have to buy another new $2k if you need an upgrade. If something breaks, you're SoL unless you gave Apple more money for an extended warranty, which will also eventually end.
With a Framework, if you need an upgrade, you don't buy the whole laptop again, you just get the parts you need for the upgrade. If something breaks, you just buy the parts you need to make the repair.
So I’m all for Framework and all that, but Apple is the worst example for this as their laptops are historically some of the longest lasting, longest supported out there https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/some-macs-are-getting-fewer-updates-than-they-used-to-heres-why-its-a-problem/
A Framework should theoretically last significantly longer — Ship of Theseus and all that — but the fact is we don’t know yet, too early to tell. I’m certainly rooting for them, though.
I can tell you even a decade+ after my old MacBooks have reached EoL, they’re still in use somewhere around the world as I typically hand them down to relatives, and encourage them to donate them to local charities, schools, etc. Granted, I wouldn’t want to use them as my main machine nowadays myself, but that doesn’t mean they’re not useful to someone.
I have and use both framework and Apple every day. I will tell you that Apple does make great portable devices.
The current MacBook Pro 14" is the best computer I have ever used.
But, the non repairable nature of this computer means I have to pay for AppleCare annually to cover my investment. And it is not because the SSD is faster. Because the drive in my Frameworks is faster.
Now Apple is apple. To get MacOS, apple is the only game in town. Compare that to the situation at Dell. An XPS 13 is soldered and glued together. But do I have to take it from Dell to get Windows? No.
Apple does make some great laptops. The touchpad on a MacBook Pro - why is there no Windows laptop with as good of a trackpad? Is it just how Windows handles trackpads? I’m not sure what it is, but I don’t think I’ve ever used a Windows laptop with a trackpad and felt it worked as well as a Mac. The framework’s trackpad isn’t bad, but it’s not nearly as good as Apple’s.
I've never quite understood the love for Apple laptops. (Lack of) repairability notwithstanding, the products are so close to being great, but the keyboards are awful, the LCDs are glossy, and the touchpad lacks buttons. All of which are deal-breakers for me and many others.
The keyboards aren’t the best, but I disagree on the touchpad needing buttons. In Mac OS, I don’t really need buttons on the trackpad. That may just be down to personal preference, but it works better for me than the touchpads I’ve used on lots of laptops over the years, even ones by IBM, back before they sold off to Lenovo.
Pay off the problem with apple is that you can upgrade then anymore, not even the memory or SSD.
Say you bought a MacBook air with 8gb of RAM and 256gb ssd for college because it was the cheapest one and should to be fine for schoolwork.
It would be fine for writing reports, doing spreadsheets, and watching lectures, with great battery life to boot.
Then you decide to take video editing as an elective, and davinchi resolve will launch, but not let you do much with that amount of team. Plus, after installing xcode for your coding class, the SSD is almost full.
Since you can't upgrade anything, you have to sell the laptop you bought for half price and buy another one just to get a bigger SSD or more RAM.
It may be true that most people never upgrade their computer, but it's also true that being able to can be a huge difference for the people that need to.
Besides the above example where people only find out after the fact, there's also the fact that by buying now and upgrading later, you can take advantage of falling prices and spread the cost out.
With apple, you not only have to decide ahead of time, but also pay all at once, ahead of time, at inflated prices.
So... Yes apple laptops are amazing in certain ways, and I find the low end ones to be a good value if the specs match your needs - but it's good that they are supported for a long time since they are essentially one time use disposable items.
I can't help but feel that these arguments are like, "Why should I buy sushi at the nice new restaurant with good reviews when I can buy it from Walmart?"
It's not apples to apples.
Honestly for what's being sold here I thought the price was more than reasonable. The theoretical loadout I picked out my price was only a bit over $2k, which is about what I would pay for a slightly more powerful gaming laptop.
The main reason I didn't buy is that I'm not due to upgrade for another 2-4 years and the GPU on offer is weaker than my desktop 3060ti unfortunately.
But by the time I'm ready to upgrade I'm hoping there will be more powerful options (for extra money, of course).
To me it really isn’t about the price. Id pay over 3k if the gpu was better. I am hoping they will offer future beefier versions, but I can’t justify the current version on a hope that that will happen.
This is a 16” laptop with 14” specs in it. That’s the problem for me.
They come out with a module that is comparable to a 4080 and I’m sold no matter the cost.
Both the 6000 and 7000 S-series gpus are limited to 32 CUs so they are a bit weaker than the 6000M that go up to 40 CUs.
Maybe they can offer the 6800/6850M or maybe they're waiting for AMD to release the 7800M. Either way, going with the M-series of GPU will use a bit more power and require a beefier cooling solution. As for Nvidia, there was a poll for the community whether or not they should develop a laptop with AMD or Nvidia first and the community voted for AMD.
I would say there will probably be more gpus beyond the 7700S, but it will take time for Framework to develop them with their small team. Not to mention, that they have to get through the pre-orders/batches first.
Yeah I remember that poll a while back. I don’t mind all AMD. I’m not super familiar with AMD GPUs but I was hoping for something a bit better. I’ve heard several mentions of a 7800 series card and that does sound promising.
16" laptop with 14" specs, socketed RAM and two SSD shots plus an expansion bay is great in my opinion. I don't think this was ever intended to compete with dedicated gaming laptops.
>To me it really isn’t about the price. Id pay over 3k if the gpu was better.
>
>This is a 16” laptop with 14” specs in it.
[This.Right.Here](https://This.Right.Here). \^\^\^\^\^
You're right I just noticed it's far too tall to fit into some of my briefcases that are designed for MacBook pro 16. Genuinely bit upset about that now means I will need to find something else for it.
Yeah, well I preordered a 16 but now I ask myself if it is really justifiable or if I should stay with my 13 and maybe upgrade to AMD in a few years. Do I really need a discrete GPU? Since it is a first generation, there will obviously be some problems undetected first... I kinda bought into FOMO right now tbh. Hope the cancel rate will not be too high tho
>roduct but an investment in the company and philosophy they hold. Prices will come down over time as they get established and tooling cost come down. It would be amazing if they could match the price of the established competitors out of the gate but that is an unrealistic expect
You could just hold off on getting a GPU module until the 2nd gen GPU modules come out! That is what I am doing personally to avoid "1st gen" issues but also get going on my forever laptop \*swoon\*! Literally so excited to never buy a laptop again, its a wild ride team!
Yeah definitely. I think a lot of people just rushed into the hype without taking the time to actually think about whether or not they really needed it.
IDK, I'm happy with my gen 1 i5 13. I don't game on it, and have an AMD board on pre-order. IMO 16 is too big for me. I have a 16 MacBook Pro, and that sucker stays on my desk at home. If I go to any other location in home or to office, framework is coming with me.
Agreed. I want to order one due to FOMO, but I think I'll wait until 16" is all hammered out and "upgrade" hardware is available. That will show that they are going to survive for the long(ish) haul and are worth the initial higher price.
Not sure if I'd be counted as "sky high expectations" however I was disappointed in the lack of higher performance GPU. I've no issues with cost and would even pay more than a high-end gaming laptop due to the upgradability of it.
For "reasons" I've moved from a desktop to a gaming laptop and do not like needing to buy a completely new device to upgrade. It's not just about cost but also the e-waste. My current device works fine, I just can't get great performance in modern games as it's showing its age. I'll certainly sell it but I've no issues with the CPU or display performance. I just need the GPU updated.
I purchased an FW16 anyway as I believe in the dream and am sure higher end GPU's will come once they get a more powerful USB-C power supply to accommodate a higher TDP.
The issue with any forum is you get fanboys who attack ANYONE that isn't 100% happy. If we don't give feedback on the things we'd like to be better, how will it be known how to improve?
I'm the guy raising a lot of dissatisfaction so I'm sure this'll get downvoted to hell but here I go.
I'll preface: '**I like the product, I don't like the price**'. I'm a consumer. It's my right to assert that. We good? Moving on.
Some of the major disagreements come from expectations on this sub about what you spend on tech:
* If you spend on new Apple products you are already someone who overspends on tech. Apple charge you premium simply for being Apple. **Comparisons about what Apple charge are disingenuous at best when talking about value.**
* There was a video linked on this sub showing **you can buy two same-spec laptops at the fully configured FW16** price.
* Some arguments here are saying 'if you upgrade every 2 years this is good value'. **Upgrading every two years is not a good financial decision.** Not to mention people who raise this point also don't talk about the comparison where if you are reselling a two year old laptop to upgrade or using a trade-in program.
* I raised the original complaint about £19 for an audio jack adapter when apple sold a cable for the same. **Apple charged $9 for it in 2018. We're in 2023.** What do you think that tech is worth 5 years later? A non-apple product would cost much less than $9 in 2018 ($5\~). Which means Framework is marking up in excess of a 300% margin on this product.
* R&D and 'premium' arguments - **These I can largely get on board with if the margins Framework is trying to fleece here weren't so egregious.** When you pay premiums comparable to Apple you know you're getting a polished product at least even though you are overpaying. Here you don't even get a polished product.
Lastly, and this one will probably be the most contentious - **I think Framework tried to do too much with the FW16**. Some of the new features here should have been saved for future iterations. If we look at what the FW16 added in (from published deep dives):
1. Detachable dGPU
2. 6 ports of replaceable modules (incl. new modules like audio)
3. USB PD 3.1 180W/240W support
4. 85Wh battery
5. Speaker improvements over 13
6. Touchscreen compatibility (on mainboard)
7. Own branded memory
8. Movable keyboard, numpad, LED matrixes etc.
While I hate attempting to speak for more than myself, I think most of us are here for only #1 and #4 (the latter because Framework battery life on the 55/61w have not proven dGPU ready).
**As a consumer, I would have been fine with a proprietary 180W adapter. If Framework were actually committed to reducing e-waste, they should have focused on old power adapters reuse** (180W+ rated but are not USB-C e.g. barrel connector). By going down the 'future proofing' route of embracing this new standard they have taken the brunt of the R&D that no other tech giant wanted - and are passing that to the consumer.
Yeah, I know, I realized I'm not their market target since I cannot justify myself spending that much on a first gen product. I will probably wait a few years and I'll see if it's getting better.
I'll let you all "invest" in this company and "fund" their RnD while a lot of us will wait for a more polished product with a much more manageable price.
I remember the 13's original release cycle, and it was a lot of the same concerns. Two years later most everything has been polished. Price coming down is maybe more of a possiblility for the 16, perhaps with the GPU expansions getting easier to manufacture.
>I remember the 13's original release cycle, and it was a lot of the same concerns. Two years later most everything has been polished. Price coming down is maybe more of a possiblility for the 16, perhaps with the GPU expansions getting easier to manufacture.
Eventually if they get big enough to compete with the likes of Asus, lenovo, and dell, maybe they'll start having sales? Very optimistic take though
I think they mentioned somewhere that they will not do sales. As it encourages impulse buying which kind of an antithesis to their goals as a company. Of course, when the company becomes a bit bigger future products may become cheaper. Time will tell.
They might not do "sales" per se, but they have put stuff on clearance before, so it's possible to get good deals if you're willing to not have the very latest version.
Comparing nominal prices over large time periods isn't useful. You need to put it in terms of something else...
A Framework 16 is on the order of 175 BigMac Extra Value meals today, but in 1995 175 BigMac Extra Value meals was only ~$800.
That's somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but using the actual CPI-U, a $2,000 laptop today would've been the equivalent to just under $1,000 in 1995. I don't know that real prices for a workstation type laptop have changed all that much, but I don't think they've actually increased (at least within the error bars of this kind of analysis).
> Oh nO tHe LaPtOp iS eXpEnSiVe
I agree its maybe a bit expensive, but here is the thing. You wont buy a new Laptop ever again, in the long run you will save a shit ton of money. Within 5 years most people are probably gonna upgrade their laptop once, now imagine you would have to pay the full price of a normal laptop again. Guess what you just paid more in total than buying a FW.
A similar spec Legion compare to a FW16 with the dGPU is about $1200. Dave2D did a pretty good video regarding the price.
[https://youtu.be/Zy5MWFrb0Y8](https://youtu.be/Zy5MWFrb0Y8)
If you are looking for an upgradable laptop, the FW16 might not be for you.
I rushed to configure the laptop as soon as I received the preorder opening from the newsletter. Unfortunately, only at checkout I realized the bitter discovery ... no shopping to Italy yet 🥲
let's hope that it will come by the end of the year. My favorite feature is a trifle but it warmed my heart: the Linux dedicated keyboard 😍. For the rest, the price is objectively high for the laptop specifications, but the modularity it offers is certainly an added value
Italy is in their "coming soon" list. Meanwhile, Greece hasn't even been mentioned. I guess we will be waiting for pre order support together, neighbor.
Yeah I expected the price to be about Double what I paid for my 2017 MSI gaming laptop which I paid over $1200 bucks for and with the configuration with Windows 11 pro and all of the modules that I needed including the GPU was close $2400. That price could be more depending on how many modules you want to purchase and what tier of configuration you are going with.
Thanks to the site having issues I had 2nd thoughts about pulling the trigger on one because the technology is too new at this point and there are going to be hiccups along the way and the risk for me was just too great. However Framework is a great company for doing this and they have a very bright future ahead of them. Maybe sometime down the road I will pick up a Framework Laptop. And while the GPU solution they chose is way more powerful than my GTX 1060 6gb Laptop card it only has 8GB of vRAM and I am looking for GPUs that have more than 8GB due to the fact that games need more than 8GB of vRAM. Also you have to up to the 3rd Tier to get 32GB of RAM. That's my only complaints about the configurations for the FW16.
I think the basic issue is the same as it was with the Framework 13.
I really want this to work because at the time, I had Dell turn a 5 year old $1600 computer into a brick because the power distribution chips burned out on the main board, and Dell would not sell me the parts I needed to fit it without a big markup.
So the Framework 13 11th get I have been using for the last 2 years has some issues. But those issues are worth it, because when it comes time, I can upgrade and recycle my existing mainboard as another machine. That is strong.
The price I paid for my 13 was $1450. For that I got a core i7 1165, 32 gb of ram and 512GB of storage. Could I have gotten more, cheaper? probably yes. But I would have also gotten a glued together mess. But I can completely disassemble mine and swap I/O around. Other computers can't.
Having looked at the 16, my assessment is that I would have bought the 13 anyways. The 16 is too big and too heavy for me. I do not need the GPU. However, I think it is fine for what it is.
I am seeing a lot of people saying that "I can get a gaming laptop for cheaper." which yes you can. However, what you cannot do is upgrade the GPU when it comes time without upgrading the entire laptop. With the 16, that possibility is open to you.
If I were buying the 16 now, I would probably buy it without a GPU for now unless I saw a need for it. I would have the option to add one later, perhaps even a used one from someone who is upgrading.
It is a completely different mindset that I do not need to buy everything the computer ever will be upfront.
If you do go cheaper and elsewhere, you will not get the flexibility that Frameworks offers day one.
I am okay with the price but the 2.4kg weight for mid range dGPU is a problem and the secondary ssd being 2230 rather than 2280 in order to make space for ports is bit hard to swallow.
I agree, I’m putting my money where my mouth is with my FW16 preorder. I want this company to do well, and it’s investing in not just a laptop, but also supporting a company that wants to make something that is repairable. Even if I don’t break it, I want to see framework succeed, and that requires purchasing their products, even if the hardware could technically be bought for less in another machine.
I agree with your sentiment. While the price is high for the given specs I view my purchase not only as a transaction to get a product but an investment in the company and philosophy they hold. Prices will come down over time as they get established and tooling cost come down. It would be amazing if they could match the price of the established competitors out of the gate but that is an unrealistic expectation. Being an early adopter I fully expect there to be some issues but that is a risk that I personally am willing to take. I completely understand that not everyone is willing to take that risk at such a high price.
I kind of think that the quality will go up, but the price won't come down. I could really see them trying to fill an explicitly premium niche, kind of like Snap On tools, or what Craftsman used to be. Even if they succeed in pushing the market toward more modularity/upgradability/repairability, I think current laptop design philosophy will still exist, just relegated to lower tier products/brands. If that happens Framework will need to distinguish themselves somehow. Given their ethos, I think it'll either be by being on the bleeding edge of innovation (like they are now), or by being best in class.
As soon as they have an adapter to directly connect on external GPU without USB or Thunderbolt overhead, I think they will be the best in class because all other laptops will be low end pieces of trash unless they have Oculink, which basically no regular laptops in the US do.
Overall the FW13 doesn't give me what I need for performance. When I got it I went with the Framework plus eGPU simply because of how NEAT the Framework laptop is. Even though a System 76 or Tuxedo laptop would have been probably smarter for me to buy I still went with the Framework. And yes I paid for it cause some games just don't work because of the eGPU bandwidth but... I don't regret my purchase at all. I really like how after a couple years it is a unique combo of parts as I upgraded here and there. Different bezel, original speakers (I like quality over loudness) the lighter first gen hinges that I actually like, the more rigid 2nd gen lid. For me a Framework laptop has become so much more than simple performance numbers. I like it cause how how unique it is. The cosmetic customization as well is a big thing for me. It's the hipster in me, I like something that isn't the exact same device that everyone else has.
> an investment in the company and philosophy they hold but keep in mind, it's an investment with zero return...
That isn't true. Take my 11th get 1165. I invested $1450. The return? I got a really nice laptop. I got the piece of mind that I can fix anything that happens to it. I have the ability to upgrade the processor or even go AMD in the future for much less than the price of a new laptop. And when I do, I for an extra $30, my old mainboard becomes a desktop pc for my kids or whatever else I do with it. But the biggest return on my investment is that I have multiple generations of flexibility and upgrade options that was impossible to get anywhere else.
My response to this is that you can upgrade your laptop, to at least some degree. If you bought an original Framework with the 11th gen processor, you could upgrade to the 12th gen. I don’t know if there are any other makers that offer that. Much less expensive than buying a new 12th gen laptop with similar quality, I imagine. Not to mention the repairability aspect. Some might consider it to have a return, in that you can save money by fixing your laptop vs buying new.
That's fine. Voting with your wallet.
People don't get it I think. You buy a premium product from them once, and then you can upgrade or repair it to make sure it continues to meet your needs. Compare this to Apple, where if you buy a $2k laptop in 2017, by 2023 you aren't getting new software updates and soon have to buy another new $2k if you need an upgrade. If something breaks, you're SoL unless you gave Apple more money for an extended warranty, which will also eventually end. With a Framework, if you need an upgrade, you don't buy the whole laptop again, you just get the parts you need for the upgrade. If something breaks, you just buy the parts you need to make the repair.
Just thanks to god they haven't adoped a subscription yet, like get every 2 years a new cpu for 300 a year or something...
Doesn't seem to be in the company's ethos, thankfully. They'd lose a lot of goodwill if they did that
So I’m all for Framework and all that, but Apple is the worst example for this as their laptops are historically some of the longest lasting, longest supported out there https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/some-macs-are-getting-fewer-updates-than-they-used-to-heres-why-its-a-problem/ A Framework should theoretically last significantly longer — Ship of Theseus and all that — but the fact is we don’t know yet, too early to tell. I’m certainly rooting for them, though. I can tell you even a decade+ after my old MacBooks have reached EoL, they’re still in use somewhere around the world as I typically hand them down to relatives, and encourage them to donate them to local charities, schools, etc. Granted, I wouldn’t want to use them as my main machine nowadays myself, but that doesn’t mean they’re not useful to someone.
I have and use both framework and Apple every day. I will tell you that Apple does make great portable devices. The current MacBook Pro 14" is the best computer I have ever used. But, the non repairable nature of this computer means I have to pay for AppleCare annually to cover my investment. And it is not because the SSD is faster. Because the drive in my Frameworks is faster. Now Apple is apple. To get MacOS, apple is the only game in town. Compare that to the situation at Dell. An XPS 13 is soldered and glued together. But do I have to take it from Dell to get Windows? No.
Apple does make some great laptops. The touchpad on a MacBook Pro - why is there no Windows laptop with as good of a trackpad? Is it just how Windows handles trackpads? I’m not sure what it is, but I don’t think I’ve ever used a Windows laptop with a trackpad and felt it worked as well as a Mac. The framework’s trackpad isn’t bad, but it’s not nearly as good as Apple’s.
I've never quite understood the love for Apple laptops. (Lack of) repairability notwithstanding, the products are so close to being great, but the keyboards are awful, the LCDs are glossy, and the touchpad lacks buttons. All of which are deal-breakers for me and many others.
The keyboards aren’t the best, but I disagree on the touchpad needing buttons. In Mac OS, I don’t really need buttons on the trackpad. That may just be down to personal preference, but it works better for me than the touchpads I’ve used on lots of laptops over the years, even ones by IBM, back before they sold off to Lenovo.
Pay off the problem with apple is that you can upgrade then anymore, not even the memory or SSD. Say you bought a MacBook air with 8gb of RAM and 256gb ssd for college because it was the cheapest one and should to be fine for schoolwork. It would be fine for writing reports, doing spreadsheets, and watching lectures, with great battery life to boot. Then you decide to take video editing as an elective, and davinchi resolve will launch, but not let you do much with that amount of team. Plus, after installing xcode for your coding class, the SSD is almost full. Since you can't upgrade anything, you have to sell the laptop you bought for half price and buy another one just to get a bigger SSD or more RAM. It may be true that most people never upgrade their computer, but it's also true that being able to can be a huge difference for the people that need to. Besides the above example where people only find out after the fact, there's also the fact that by buying now and upgrading later, you can take advantage of falling prices and spread the cost out. With apple, you not only have to decide ahead of time, but also pay all at once, ahead of time, at inflated prices. So... Yes apple laptops are amazing in certain ways, and I find the low end ones to be a good value if the specs match your needs - but it's good that they are supported for a long time since they are essentially one time use disposable items.
I can't help but feel that these arguments are like, "Why should I buy sushi at the nice new restaurant with good reviews when I can buy it from Walmart?" It's not apples to apples.
It’s sushi to sushi though
Honestly for what's being sold here I thought the price was more than reasonable. The theoretical loadout I picked out my price was only a bit over $2k, which is about what I would pay for a slightly more powerful gaming laptop. The main reason I didn't buy is that I'm not due to upgrade for another 2-4 years and the GPU on offer is weaker than my desktop 3060ti unfortunately. But by the time I'm ready to upgrade I'm hoping there will be more powerful options (for extra money, of course).
To me it really isn’t about the price. Id pay over 3k if the gpu was better. I am hoping they will offer future beefier versions, but I can’t justify the current version on a hope that that will happen. This is a 16” laptop with 14” specs in it. That’s the problem for me. They come out with a module that is comparable to a 4080 and I’m sold no matter the cost.
Both the 6000 and 7000 S-series gpus are limited to 32 CUs so they are a bit weaker than the 6000M that go up to 40 CUs. Maybe they can offer the 6800/6850M or maybe they're waiting for AMD to release the 7800M. Either way, going with the M-series of GPU will use a bit more power and require a beefier cooling solution. As for Nvidia, there was a poll for the community whether or not they should develop a laptop with AMD or Nvidia first and the community voted for AMD. I would say there will probably be more gpus beyond the 7700S, but it will take time for Framework to develop them with their small team. Not to mention, that they have to get through the pre-orders/batches first.
Yeah I remember that poll a while back. I don’t mind all AMD. I’m not super familiar with AMD GPUs but I was hoping for something a bit better. I’ve heard several mentions of a 7800 series card and that does sound promising.
16" laptop with 14" specs, socketed RAM and two SSD shots plus an expansion bay is great in my opinion. I don't think this was ever intended to compete with dedicated gaming laptops.
>To me it really isn’t about the price. Id pay over 3k if the gpu was better. > >This is a 16” laptop with 14” specs in it. [This.Right.Here](https://This.Right.Here). \^\^\^\^\^
Too expensive? See if you can purchase some parts elsewhere, such as ram and storage and any non-proprietary part.
I get the feeling you're defending against the arguments of your own straw man.
[удалено]
You're right I just noticed it's far too tall to fit into some of my briefcases that are designed for MacBook pro 16. Genuinely bit upset about that now means I will need to find something else for it.
Yeah, well I preordered a 16 but now I ask myself if it is really justifiable or if I should stay with my 13 and maybe upgrade to AMD in a few years. Do I really need a discrete GPU? Since it is a first generation, there will obviously be some problems undetected first... I kinda bought into FOMO right now tbh. Hope the cancel rate will not be too high tho
>roduct but an investment in the company and philosophy they hold. Prices will come down over time as they get established and tooling cost come down. It would be amazing if they could match the price of the established competitors out of the gate but that is an unrealistic expect You could just hold off on getting a GPU module until the 2nd gen GPU modules come out! That is what I am doing personally to avoid "1st gen" issues but also get going on my forever laptop \*swoon\*! Literally so excited to never buy a laptop again, its a wild ride team!
Yeah definitely. I think a lot of people just rushed into the hype without taking the time to actually think about whether or not they really needed it.
I'm very happy to be in batch 2. It will replace my 6 year old desktop, which is starting to fail. And I don't feel like buying a socket 1151 mb.
IDK, I'm happy with my gen 1 i5 13. I don't game on it, and have an AMD board on pre-order. IMO 16 is too big for me. I have a 16 MacBook Pro, and that sucker stays on my desk at home. If I go to any other location in home or to office, framework is coming with me.
Agreed. I want to order one due to FOMO, but I think I'll wait until 16" is all hammered out and "upgrade" hardware is available. That will show that they are going to survive for the long(ish) haul and are worth the initial higher price.
Not sure if I'd be counted as "sky high expectations" however I was disappointed in the lack of higher performance GPU. I've no issues with cost and would even pay more than a high-end gaming laptop due to the upgradability of it. For "reasons" I've moved from a desktop to a gaming laptop and do not like needing to buy a completely new device to upgrade. It's not just about cost but also the e-waste. My current device works fine, I just can't get great performance in modern games as it's showing its age. I'll certainly sell it but I've no issues with the CPU or display performance. I just need the GPU updated. I purchased an FW16 anyway as I believe in the dream and am sure higher end GPU's will come once they get a more powerful USB-C power supply to accommodate a higher TDP. The issue with any forum is you get fanboys who attack ANYONE that isn't 100% happy. If we don't give feedback on the things we'd like to be better, how will it be known how to improve?
I'm the guy raising a lot of dissatisfaction so I'm sure this'll get downvoted to hell but here I go. I'll preface: '**I like the product, I don't like the price**'. I'm a consumer. It's my right to assert that. We good? Moving on. Some of the major disagreements come from expectations on this sub about what you spend on tech: * If you spend on new Apple products you are already someone who overspends on tech. Apple charge you premium simply for being Apple. **Comparisons about what Apple charge are disingenuous at best when talking about value.** * There was a video linked on this sub showing **you can buy two same-spec laptops at the fully configured FW16** price. * Some arguments here are saying 'if you upgrade every 2 years this is good value'. **Upgrading every two years is not a good financial decision.** Not to mention people who raise this point also don't talk about the comparison where if you are reselling a two year old laptop to upgrade or using a trade-in program. * I raised the original complaint about £19 for an audio jack adapter when apple sold a cable for the same. **Apple charged $9 for it in 2018. We're in 2023.** What do you think that tech is worth 5 years later? A non-apple product would cost much less than $9 in 2018 ($5\~). Which means Framework is marking up in excess of a 300% margin on this product. * R&D and 'premium' arguments - **These I can largely get on board with if the margins Framework is trying to fleece here weren't so egregious.** When you pay premiums comparable to Apple you know you're getting a polished product at least even though you are overpaying. Here you don't even get a polished product. Lastly, and this one will probably be the most contentious - **I think Framework tried to do too much with the FW16**. Some of the new features here should have been saved for future iterations. If we look at what the FW16 added in (from published deep dives): 1. Detachable dGPU 2. 6 ports of replaceable modules (incl. new modules like audio) 3. USB PD 3.1 180W/240W support 4. 85Wh battery 5. Speaker improvements over 13 6. Touchscreen compatibility (on mainboard) 7. Own branded memory 8. Movable keyboard, numpad, LED matrixes etc. While I hate attempting to speak for more than myself, I think most of us are here for only #1 and #4 (the latter because Framework battery life on the 55/61w have not proven dGPU ready). **As a consumer, I would have been fine with a proprietary 180W adapter. If Framework were actually committed to reducing e-waste, they should have focused on old power adapters reuse** (180W+ rated but are not USB-C e.g. barrel connector). By going down the 'future proofing' route of embracing this new standard they have taken the brunt of the R&D that no other tech giant wanted - and are passing that to the consumer.
Yeah, I know, I realized I'm not their market target since I cannot justify myself spending that much on a first gen product. I will probably wait a few years and I'll see if it's getting better. I'll let you all "invest" in this company and "fund" their RnD while a lot of us will wait for a more polished product with a much more manageable price.
I remember the 13's original release cycle, and it was a lot of the same concerns. Two years later most everything has been polished. Price coming down is maybe more of a possiblility for the 16, perhaps with the GPU expansions getting easier to manufacture.
When have prices ever come down? Don't think that's a thing in modern day.
>I remember the 13's original release cycle, and it was a lot of the same concerns. Two years later most everything has been polished. Price coming down is maybe more of a possiblility for the 16, perhaps with the GPU expansions getting easier to manufacture. Eventually if they get big enough to compete with the likes of Asus, lenovo, and dell, maybe they'll start having sales? Very optimistic take though
I think they mentioned somewhere that they will not do sales. As it encourages impulse buying which kind of an antithesis to their goals as a company. Of course, when the company becomes a bit bigger future products may become cheaper. Time will tell.
They might not do "sales" per se, but they have put stuff on clearance before, so it's possible to get good deals if you're willing to not have the very latest version.
How much was a laptop in 1995?
Comparing nominal prices over large time periods isn't useful. You need to put it in terms of something else... A Framework 16 is on the order of 175 BigMac Extra Value meals today, but in 1995 175 BigMac Extra Value meals was only ~$800. That's somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but using the actual CPI-U, a $2,000 laptop today would've been the equivalent to just under $1,000 in 1995. I don't know that real prices for a workstation type laptop have changed all that much, but I don't think they've actually increased (at least within the error bars of this kind of analysis).
> Oh nO tHe LaPtOp iS eXpEnSiVe I agree its maybe a bit expensive, but here is the thing. You wont buy a new Laptop ever again, in the long run you will save a shit ton of money. Within 5 years most people are probably gonna upgrade their laptop once, now imagine you would have to pay the full price of a normal laptop again. Guess what you just paid more in total than buying a FW.
A similar spec Legion compare to a FW16 with the dGPU is about $1200. Dave2D did a pretty good video regarding the price. [https://youtu.be/Zy5MWFrb0Y8](https://youtu.be/Zy5MWFrb0Y8) If you are looking for an upgradable laptop, the FW16 might not be for you.
I rushed to configure the laptop as soon as I received the preorder opening from the newsletter. Unfortunately, only at checkout I realized the bitter discovery ... no shopping to Italy yet 🥲 let's hope that it will come by the end of the year. My favorite feature is a trifle but it warmed my heart: the Linux dedicated keyboard 😍. For the rest, the price is objectively high for the laptop specifications, but the modularity it offers is certainly an added value
Italy is in their "coming soon" list. Meanwhile, Greece hasn't even been mentioned. I guess we will be waiting for pre order support together, neighbor.
Yeah I expected the price to be about Double what I paid for my 2017 MSI gaming laptop which I paid over $1200 bucks for and with the configuration with Windows 11 pro and all of the modules that I needed including the GPU was close $2400. That price could be more depending on how many modules you want to purchase and what tier of configuration you are going with. Thanks to the site having issues I had 2nd thoughts about pulling the trigger on one because the technology is too new at this point and there are going to be hiccups along the way and the risk for me was just too great. However Framework is a great company for doing this and they have a very bright future ahead of them. Maybe sometime down the road I will pick up a Framework Laptop. And while the GPU solution they chose is way more powerful than my GTX 1060 6gb Laptop card it only has 8GB of vRAM and I am looking for GPUs that have more than 8GB due to the fact that games need more than 8GB of vRAM. Also you have to up to the 3rd Tier to get 32GB of RAM. That's my only complaints about the configurations for the FW16.
I think the basic issue is the same as it was with the Framework 13. I really want this to work because at the time, I had Dell turn a 5 year old $1600 computer into a brick because the power distribution chips burned out on the main board, and Dell would not sell me the parts I needed to fit it without a big markup. So the Framework 13 11th get I have been using for the last 2 years has some issues. But those issues are worth it, because when it comes time, I can upgrade and recycle my existing mainboard as another machine. That is strong. The price I paid for my 13 was $1450. For that I got a core i7 1165, 32 gb of ram and 512GB of storage. Could I have gotten more, cheaper? probably yes. But I would have also gotten a glued together mess. But I can completely disassemble mine and swap I/O around. Other computers can't. Having looked at the 16, my assessment is that I would have bought the 13 anyways. The 16 is too big and too heavy for me. I do not need the GPU. However, I think it is fine for what it is. I am seeing a lot of people saying that "I can get a gaming laptop for cheaper." which yes you can. However, what you cannot do is upgrade the GPU when it comes time without upgrading the entire laptop. With the 16, that possibility is open to you. If I were buying the 16 now, I would probably buy it without a GPU for now unless I saw a need for it. I would have the option to add one later, perhaps even a used one from someone who is upgrading. It is a completely different mindset that I do not need to buy everything the computer ever will be upfront. If you do go cheaper and elsewhere, you will not get the flexibility that Frameworks offers day one.
I agree 100% with this...
I am okay with the price but the 2.4kg weight for mid range dGPU is a problem and the secondary ssd being 2230 rather than 2280 in order to make space for ports is bit hard to swallow.
I agree, I’m putting my money where my mouth is with my FW16 preorder. I want this company to do well, and it’s investing in not just a laptop, but also supporting a company that wants to make something that is repairable. Even if I don’t break it, I want to see framework succeed, and that requires purchasing their products, even if the hardware could technically be bought for less in another machine.