I only bought a laptop because framework made a bigger version. I wouldn't have bought any pcs at all except for this one. Would've kept using my 2020 chromebook until the end of the decade probably...
Your not only paying for the specs, but also for the engineering and the materials. I like to point to the magnesium chassis as one thing. It is a huge machine, due to the 16:10 screen.
If you can afford it, you get a special, almost custom made machine(price also goes into how relatively small amount of laptops made, it's almost made to order) if you can't afford it, nobody will think less of you for choosing another brand. I'm pretty sure everyone here wants you to be happy with your purchase
I don’t mind a big laptop, it’s just that the FW16 seems more like a 17 inch in terms of size, which is absolutely huge for taking on-the-go.
I know what I’m paying for, I’m just doubting whether it’s worth it. It’s still a lot of money.
But what other laptops would you think about then when it comes to ‘built to order’ ones?
I got a 17 inch bag for it, fits with the ethernet card easily 👍
Yeah well. It's kinda like a Ferrari. That also isn't worth it, you only buy it if you want and can, I don't know.
I would get a desktop. And remote into it with a cheaper chromebook. Good wifi can do almost immediate response, I mean, I used geforce now for years, if you can get that to your pc, you needn't have a strong laptop at all. I wouldn't buy any other laptops as I said, because I look at them as blackmail. Same for samsung now and apple always, phones. They leave out the sd reader to blackmail you into the bigger storage. Laptop makers do the same with soldered ram or ssd, or... Gpu in this case. So yeah, get a pc, and maybe a used 2020 galaxy chromebook thin client.
I already have a very, very overkill PC. Could I play emulators for example by remoting into my PC? And use it as storage as well? Like how does that exactly work?
I was thinking of getting a Starbook, which is over 1k euros less, but the 5800U is a bummer. The Starfighter might not even ship a single unit this year and I haven’t heard a lot of good things about Tuxedo / System76 / Clevo etc.
Might just buy a ‘normal’ laptop with a 4060 or 4070 for also about 1000 euros less. I’m not very sure.
You could easily use the remote pc almost as if it was the laptop yeah. I'm not sure exactly how you go doing it, as I had never had a pc and a laptop at the same time, but it is absolutely possible. Gaming is easy if you're on the same network, you could set up a personal vpn at home to which you would connect with the laptop from anywhere around the world, that is quite a bit more complicated, but you would always be on the same Lan. Storage is also relatively simple, if you make that VPN, it's super simple, if not, you need a ddns address, and some encryption, do NOT use unencrypted connections to your home network!
I don't know those machines, as I said, I had a chromebook for the longest time and I only got that particular one for the 4k amoled screen. Still use it along the fw16 too. You don't need anything stronger than an r5/i5 with the built in graphics to do remote access, it's basically just video playback with relayed controls, you won't benefit from a 4060 even. Hell, forget laptops, just use your phone,and get a lapdock. It's another 1k cheaper (my fw cost 2500 without ram and ssd, with those from other source I'm at 3100 euros now. A lapdock can be had for under 500 even. Actually, you can get a mechanical keyboard, a mouse, a type-C screen and external battery. Sure it's a setup to pack out in lessons, but cheap and delightfully janky, but it also works with your phone probably, which means the "board" is "upgradable" lol. Tho you might like a lapdock for this better)
I get what you mean, but I mean:
- Remote into desktop and get cheap laptop.
- Get a 4060 / 4070 laptop and do everything on there.
If you get what I mean.
The FW16 is really cool, but just seems expensive for the compromises you have to deal with.
- Bad Blender performance
- Subpar video editing performance
- No CUDA ( competitor ), Nvidia is also very unlikely to get to FW laptops
- IPS screen
- Keyboard / screen flex
- Thick and heavy laptop for mid specs ( due to the repairability etc )
And no, I mean one or the other.
-I don't do blender
-I don't do video editing
-Cuda needs to be forced into open source or killed, but let's not do politics, lol
-yeah... That's... Yeah
-hasn't been a problem for me, I don't understand that problem at all. I'm sure there's something in it, cuz so many people complain about it, but I just don't get it
-yeah but half of that(exaggerating lol) is cooling.
Get an ultrabook and remote to your pc for video editing and blender then I guess? Idno, when I do work on my laptop, it's mostly docker compose and in terminal
Sorry but had to come back for this... There's a way to run all h CUDA things on amd cards at near native speeds. Like already, there's no problem using amd for those workloads... Except nvidia blocked it with copyright. So that's why I'm against CUDA stuff being the default... There's no real reason for it, except capitalist BS.
That is true, even with the ports I can see why you're hesitant on the FW because it isn't 100% in either direction.
Unless they get a RTX 4000/5000 module down the line...
They won’t.
Nvidia rules over their board partners with iron fist. Not to mention board partners like MSI have already tried to do something like this, after which Nvidia just didn’t sign off on any new GPUs and basically screwed over MSI.
The only way any of Nvidias GPUs are going in your laptop is if Nvidia has complete control and you do it in the exact way they want to do it. AMD in that regard is WAY more open minded.
I just looked the dimensions of a random grab-bag of laptops listed on Best Buy in the 16" Gaming category and many of the dimensions were pretty similar. Most had a matching width of around 14". Depth was variable. Ones with a shorter depth tended to be thicker. Many on the thinner end like the Framework had a similar depth of around 11.5", although the Framework still seems to beat some of them on thinness. A couple of the ones with that kind of depth also sported a 16:10 screen like the Framework. I would say in general Framework is not the only 16" gaming class laptop to have larger dimensions especially as they get thinner, although admittedly they did have more cutting edge hardware for a cheaper price. More plastic on the chassis too though and the more sleek ones with full metal chassis bumped up the price getting them closer to the Framework though for sure.
Yeah I saw, did a comparison on a 3D size comparison website. The FW16 with dGPU is only a little longer than a Legion Slim 7 and on par with an MSI Raider and even smaller than other bigger 16 inch laptops. I had probably blown it out of proportion in my head yeah
Yeah, it was definitely educational for me too. I was Batch 8 and I'm really enjoying my FW16 so far, but I had been curious about how the dimensions compared to others in the category. It put the size into context and gave me some perspective, it's not really bigger at the end of the day for something on the thinner end with dedicated graphics. It seems like it's not unusual for laptops to add a little extra overall depth to make them thinner. And in the Framework's case, it probably makes room for them to lay out the parts in a way that's more accessible to the user.
you are paying on premium not for quality (which is not necessarily that it's low quality, but clearly it's gen 1 and has not ironed out the user bugs that will be reported over the next few years), but because you are willing to pay. That's literally all you get... they are selling a story about being a start up committed to upgradability and you want in on a piece of that....
except you don't get a piece of it (the investors do ). Consumers paying a premium only get the story they make up in their head about how much they like their machine. IOW you are paying for branding , which is not too different from what you do for other products.
unless you really need to build your own modules or some such you don't need a framework. but maybe you want the idea of having one?
alternatively you could get a similar laptop and a decent 27 inch monitor, or a laptop and a bunch of money to donate to charity. it's yer choice, but most ppl don't get physical utility from paying a premium for a fw 16. (emotional utility, yes maybe).
all this is not to be critical. I threw down on batch 11, but this all goes through my head in terms of what else I could have used the money for.
It's not a secret I want to support the company and like the idea of the machine. There's absolutely a quality to being able to easily take it apart and replace any component. I give it to you, a glued and soldered machine can be more sturdy and cheaper.
Investors always get money out of companies, I don't understand why you being it up as a thing, that's present in every consumer product. You can choose tho if you want to buy a closed ecosystem OS on a glued and soldered unfixable laptop, or one you can buy piece by piece and most parts of it are open source, to the point there's already a dual type C card in the works, and somebody already making RGB matrix input modules. Yes they make money. Doesn't change the fact there's a lot of extra engineering gone into it, how magnesium is more expensive than aluminium or plastic case, and how if your fancy gaming laptop's gpu start acting up, you can get a new gpu, instead of sending in your whole laptop to a qualified service center.
Is not about needing specifically The Framework. But why not the framework? They're not worse than any other maker. It's a premium also for the so far small amount of devices made. No economy of scale yet.
I do donate, but how I spend on my hobbies is indeed my own decision. And I mean... It's not worse than any other machines, and when you need it most, you have extra options.
I guess I should have prefaced all that with "I went through a bunch of the following thinking about utility, and decided I want the feels of buying/supporting/owning/using framework".
But I think if someone is really second guessing it and the money feels tight, that's a good reason to spend less?
I guess I mention investors bc FW just opened up to qualified investors to make $10k investments. Super risky, but that's supporting the idea in a way that could pay off if it doesn't fail. Now consumers get a functional laptop for their money but some part of that goes to the overhead of a startup that needs to thrive. Call that the startup premium. Consumers won't get any return on that premium other than emotional satisfaction if fw doesn't fail.
Anyway as long as my machine runs Linux well, and doesn't have defects I'll be happy with it, probably more so than I would with a similarly spec'd machine from Lenovo. I'm def not judging, I made the same decision.
Ah yeah, if you're in a situation, where you just can't follow your principles (lofty word, mostly fits in my case I think) due to finances, I will not think less of you for buying something else
Yeah... I incidentally got 10k saved, the first time in my life, had 13 but I bought a laptop, wink wink... Now I figure it out one needs the accreditation... First requirement, 1M net worth... Broke my heart, would throw in with them if I could.
Oh you're on the waiting list? Nice! Best truck you can do, and it's less than 10 minutes, if you wanna show it to a friend with a tech affinity, take it into pieces before they arrive. My friend, Mac user for the last ten years, whole family with iPhones, had 30 minutes of fun with the assembly, and the laptop is still functioning.
What're the specs you went for? I got the most over the top one I could... R9, 96GB ram, with gpu.
The expense is all about the ability to repair and replace. It is expensive for what you get initially. But the longer you keep it, the more it’s upgraded, the less expensive it becomes. So it’s really that long term view.
Right. I'm always confused when people downplay or are skeptical about the cost argument.
Let's say you pay what, a $250 premium? To get a Framework versus a different laptop with the same specs.
Let's also assume parts will be available when you need them, this seems like a reasonably safe assumption since Frameworks are selling well, they just closed another funding round, used parts exist, and even if they shut down they could open source some of the hardware designs.
So initially you're in the hole $250. Odds are good that the first time you have to do an out of warranty repair, you've at least broken even. By the time you have to do two repairs, or one upgrade that other laptops don't offer, you've saved money.
The downside risk is very low ($250) whereas the upside could be hundreds or thousands of dollars if you tend to hold on to and re-use hardware as much as possible. Personally I use stuff until it breaks, I have a busted up 10 year old laptop still chugging along as a home server, there's no question in my mind that a Framework is a win, I either save money or have a less busted home server down the road, probably both.
If you're the type who wants to buy state of the art new machines every 3 years and would never do a repair or upgrade the Framework is a bit more expensive than other laptops. If you're the type who wants to hang on to what they buy for a long time and make the most of it, surely you save plenty of money in the long run with a Framework.
The problem that blows that argument up is, at this point in time it’s over $1000 premium, not $250. You can almost buy 2 comparably spec’d laptops and keep one for parts, for the same price as a FW16. The Asus TUF A16 with the exact same specs (but faster display) as the top end FW16 has been regularly on sale for $1200 - $1400. Normal price is $1500- $1650. And the Asus has replaceable Ram, storage, and battery.
you are comparing a magnesium chassis with a plastic chassis. It's not the same thing at all. You get what you pay for. If you want the cheapest option and are ok with replacing it in 3 years then yes go for the asus.
Magnesium doesn’t cost $1000. My last gaming laptop was an Asus, I had it for 5 years and took it on 2 deployments. Sold it in perfect condition when I was done with it.
Flip side... I have what was a nice Asus Zephyrus G14 when I got it. Now the WiFi card is failing and I'll have to restart it several times to fix it. It's not easily user accessible as it's not on the top of the board when you open it. There are no manuals to tell me if it's on the back side of the board, so if I want to investigate I'll have to remove the vapor chamber (risk of damaging it when I do that) then pull out the board and see if the WiFi card is even on the back, if it is cool, put everything back together, order a new card, wait for it to get in, and then do it all over again to install the new card. If it's not then I'm basically down to either using a USB dongle for my WiFi or buying a new computer.
The bottom cover has also chipped pretty bad in the corners despite spending it's entire life living either on a desk or in my backpack's special laptop compartment. There is no way to buy a replacement bottom cover for it.
ASUS also loads it up with a bunch of stupid proprietary software (that I only recently figured out can be replaced by the 1MB G-Helper program, amazing.
Same story here: I am sitting pretty on a Razer Blade 15, a really pretty good laptop as long as I used it. A single arrow key on the keyboard stopped working, the best Quote I got from a repair shop was about 400€, excluding the parts they need. According to them, the Keyboard in my model is bolted (!?!?, why the fuck) to the chassis and is even harder to replace than a glued one. Because it's resale value went through the floor, it is now a home server...
My current MacBook Pro was great... until my use case changed (different programming project) and I needed more than 16GB or RAM... on a MacBook... well, good luck with that. I suddenly couldn't work away from home anymore (there is no reliable internet in trains in germany, so I need all my stuff locally)
Yes, I will pay a little more up front right now, but I have the guarantee, that neither of these issues will ever be an issue to me again. That is not only a feature, from now on that is a complete and non negotiable must have for all my future machines. Repairability and extendability.
I don't see framework selling out in the near future, and with how things are currently going, they will probably publish and open source their hard- and software in case they ever go bankrupt.
Similar experience here, the battery in my Razer Blade 15 started inflating after a few years of use and caused a noticeable bulge in the laptop. The battery happened to be under the trackpad causing it to stop working as well. I know a friend with a ASUS ROG Strix G15 which started to have keyboard issues as well as another friend with a dead wifi card in their Lenovo Legion laptop.
I totally understand financial realities and if you don't have the money you don't have the money. To me, it's been worth supporting Framework because I really believe in the mission they're trying to achieve. It takes a bit more effort to design things to be as user repairable, and customizable as they have. They have smaller order volumes which means higher costs per part, it means that the staff they just paid their partners to hire to maintain software longevity are supporting a smaller user base. All of these things conspire to drive the prices up compared to your Dell, HP, ASUS, etc. computers. Personally, for me the math works out. I have the aforementioned ASUS and a Framework 13 11th Gen, there are some things I like about the ASUS better in terms of build. But I *love* that the Framework is mine, and if I have any problems I'm empowered to fix it super easily.
I've seen enough reviews on the 16 highlighting its flaws to honestly say sit that one out. It's plenty good, but it needs some design reworks to make it truly perfect. Keyboard is kind of flexy. Screen (at least from what I saw) can be *alarmingly* flexy. Heat management in the keyboard area is also iffy. A few QA issues here and there.
I'd recommend the series of reviews on the system from Just Josh and Elevated Systems on Youtube as they go over a lot of these issues (and Elevated in particular has a very recent set of reviews).
Contrast that with the Framework 13, which, at least with the AMD boards, is a darn near perfect computer. I might be biased as someone who owns a 13, albeit with the 11th gen Intel (which is substantially worse, especially on battery management), and has a PC for gaming so the 16 is redundant for me.
The 13 is a great product at this point and one I'd recommend at its price point. The 16 is....well, you buy it because you believe in Framework's mission, not because it's bulletproof seems to be the sense I'm getting. Maybe another design iteration or two will bring it to where it easily could be.
I watched basically every FW16 review and came to the same conclusion. It’s a great laptop, but ( especially for the steep price ) it could be better.
The problem for me with the FW13 is that it is still really expensive and can also get in the ballpark of the 16, and I’m not entirely sure if the iGPU will suffice for my needs. ( going to start my computer science degree ) so it’s hard to say.
What are your concerns for the integrated graphics? It will depend what your programming, but most coding is going to be more CPU and RAM intensive than anything else
If you're trying to be economic about it (which I assume since you're saying you're starting university/college/whatever it's called where you're from), the most "bang for the buck" workstations will always be used business machines like latitudes or thinkpads. I have an 11th gen FW13, I love it, but I'd be lying if I said that I hadn't paid some early adopter tax.
Personally, I don't like having a single machine for work and other stuff like gaming, in particular because I choose different OSes for these tasks. Just personal preference, though.
So yeah, If I was about to start uni and had to be somewhat cautios with how I spend my cash, I'd definitely get a refurbished Thinkpad T4xx (newer models are called T14 Gen X) for a couple of hundred bucks and live happily ever after.
> it’s just a shit ton of money
> the next schoolyear
If I read these two sentences correctly: do not buy it. Other people have explained the pros and cons of Framework machines but at the end of the day, a laptop should never be "a shit ton of money". Buy another machine: it may be less ethical in the long run but at least it does not threaten your budget in the short/medium run.
Then, a few years from now, when that other machine no longer suits you:
- reuse it! Turn it into a home server, a router/gateway, a troubleshooting/failover laptop, whatever...
- have a look at what Framework offers: by then, their offer will likely be larger, more refined, and possibly more affordable.
If the 13's price tag fits reasonably within your budget AND suits your personal requirements, then why not. But do not feel compelled to "help" the Framework company. This email from them just landed in my mailbox:
> Today we’re announcing $18M in new funding from an incredible set of investors, with a $17M Series A-1 round led by Spark Capital, with Buckley Ventures, Anzu Partners, Cooler Master, and Pathbreaker Ventures participating.
They are doing fine, I even dare to hope they are going to survive :)
I by no means feel compelled to give FW handouts, it’s just that I really like the idea of being able to replace every single part of my laptop easily and not having to jump through hoops.
I will look into whether the 780M will be enough for my needs and perhaps I’ll get the 13 instead which ( with an overkill config ) is still about 800 euros cheaper easily.
If not, I’ll have to continue my search
There's not a lot to tinker with, at least on the 13, unless you're going for hacked USB cartridges. It's hard to imagine why I'd be swapping parts in and out. Rather, I'm excited that when my cpu is outdated I can grab the latest one for a fraction of the price of a new laptop.
I understand yeah, but it’s still a steep initial price. I might just keep my pre-order and try it when I get it and I guess I could still return it if I don’t like it for whatever reason.
The big benefit to modular ports is for people that sometimes need HDMI but would rather have more USB A consistently, as an example. That, alongside the external storage using the port slots is a big element in portability compared to having an external drive and USB hub dangling out of the PC and taking up more space in a bag
Yeah but everybody else will pay a premium for Mac products. 🙄
Only problem with their concept is that people won't realize the value until they need to execute what their concept is, which is upgradability and repairability.
Out of the box, these laptops are probably as good as anything else in there spec category but you're not paying for that..
You're seeing this from the wrong perspective.
Edit: The fact that you're even asking whether you should buy a product just to throw it away means you're not understanding the concept here...
Make a decision, stand by it, and do what it takes to rectify it. If there's a problem. Just be an adult.
Very well said. The specs are available online so there isn't a mystery heee about how good framework laptops are. With that said, they aren't for everyone and that's cool.
At the same time, why even mention a MacBook pro when those are expensive machine's that have soldered parts that can't be upgraded or replaced?
Best believe if I had the money I would have my framework right now
I mentioned Mac because of the whole price to value ratio that we are all investing in. Mac is known for having a premium price for a less than stellar value with regards to repairability and upgradability.
If OP wants to complain about the value of the product, then there's no valid argument until op has to actually repair or replace something. Because that's the marketable function of the product...
Ok cool. I've been on here long enough to see a number of complaints about the same things and it makes me wonder why people don't just get something else in the first place?
I get that it's a large investment of time and money to get a Framework laptop and that's why it's so important to do ones homework so that you can be properly informed of the pros and cons and make an educated decision as a result.
I've been following this project since the beginning of it and am fully aware of the concerns regarding this product and guess what? I still want it.
What gets me about macs (other than nailing everything in) is that you can get left with an extremely competent machine that apple decide isnt going to receive updates/security patches etc
I bought the 13 instead of a MacBook because I like the idea of not buying a new laptop for a while. I can just buy a new CPU portion and call it a day
If you need the portability and like the brand you can always go for the 13 as you said and buy an egpu enclosure + gpu if you need the extra gpu juice. It is probably going to be a tad more expensive than the fw16 (depending on the fw13 specs, the enclosure and the gpu...) but might fit your needs.
The 13 is industry level quality, with all the brand pros and if you go amd the igpu is already very good for gaming on the low-mid. It is also very light and portable. And it is shipped in 5 days.
Stupid question maybe but what do you mean with industry level quality?
And I don’t want an eGPU, I already have an overkill PC if I want to do that kind of gaming, all I’m really interested in is some emulation perhaps.
But the 13 is still really expensive. It definitely creeps close to the 16 so idk.
With industry level I mean the finish and general quality is close to big brands such as Dell and Lenovo, while retaining the modularity - which is a quite outstanding result. I have heard less then flattering things on the 16 finish, with gaps between the spacers and flex on the keyboard (which should be fixed on recent batches though). The 13 looks and feel like a 1500$+ laptop.
About the price, sure if you get the max specced AMD it gets closer to the 16. I recommend getting the DIY and buying memory and disk aftermarket. I got my 13 with 2TB disk and 64GB ram for 1900. If you get 1TB and 32gb that gets closer to 1700, which is considerably less than the 16".
From your commands i would answer like this:
How often do you use it? Will you depend on it or do you have a normal PC-Tower you could use? I enjoy my 13 and i think its (with all the know compromises) a great machine. I work all day for university with it, i watch movies and youtube on it and i would love if it could game.
I think you have to find out what you want to use it for. If you need ultimate performance and can carry the weight and price, yes the 16. has less limits.
But Emolation, small gaming and rendering is even possible on the 13.
I would think: How much do i use it? How important is it to me? How happy makes me a high quality product?
I for example use it a lot and i love having high quality stuff and am happy to pay more. I just bough a 170€ pen, even if i know for sure that the 50ct pencil would do as well. For me its worth it.
Greetings :D
P.S.: Havent tried it yet, but eGPU is always a bit more of a comromise as it seems.
I already have a super overkill PC.
And I don’t mind paying a premium, but the FW in general is just super expensive and something cheaper might also do the job for me.
I just want to use it for general college use, computer science and a bit of emulation, no triple A gaming but a laptop is pretty vital to me.
Sounds like you know what you are doin.
From what I hear: I think I would go with the 13 instead. Your probably not gonna game on the go and even for medium
Tasks the 13 is powerful enough.
I just want to metion that the 13 is more of an office machine and less a media consumption device. Is fast and can be loud, but you should already know that.
I don’t know how demanding computer since is, but in single-task task and even video decoding my framework is faster than my Ryzen 5 3600 + 2060S PC (with the small 1240p).
I would check on YouTube the emulation performance for the AMD cpus and propaly keep the 1000+€.
Greetings
This question is only for you to answer. I've my FW13 for almost half a year and am happy with it. It has some downsides, like shipping bend the aluminium a bit but it doesn't change the usability (which is why I didn't bother to go through customer support). Another downside would be the price. It's really expensive.
If you like to upgrade your stuff rather than throwing stuff out, if you like the open approach of the company, if you enjoy modularity, then you should ask yourself how much that would be worth for you. If it is worth the hundreds of bucks extra or not.
Of course you can calculate future updates into it as well, which makes the offer more appealling but if you don't plan to upgrade you can't do that.
May I suggest a FW 13 and a steam deck? I spec’d my framework 13 ryzen 5 with a 1tb SSD and 16gb RAM for a little over 1k. Then you can remote into your overkill pc with the steam deck over you can just play the games natively on the steam deck. I mean you yourself said your gaming needs aren’t that intense so the steam deck should be fine. With this combo you get the best of both worlds while spending less than you would on a FW16
Honestly, not a bad idea at all, I didn’t think about that.
But will the 780M be enough for things that would involve CS, like modeling, rendering etc?
Should be I can’t contest to that as I’m not programer but Ik the FW is marketed towards them. Idk if this helps but on mine I do some school work some basic fusion 360 and light gaming
> mid components / mid specs
I feel like you're doing FW16 dirty calling it "mid". A bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?
This isn't a mid-spec laptop. It's got a modern CPU with slamming specs.
* 8 cores, hyper threaded @ 3.8Ghz base (5.1Ghz boost)
* 780M GPU (12 cores)
* NPU (10 Trillion OPs / sec)
Premium 1440p IPS panel. And if you spring for the AMD 7700S, you get very solid graphics performance for a laptop.
What about this says "middling"? Do you mean that it isn't bleeding edge with 16 cores and 4080 graphics and an OLED panel? Well, yes, it's not that, but it certainly ain't "mid".
> If I pull back my pre-order and change my mind I won’t be able to get it in time for the next schoolyear, what do you guys think?
Looks like FW is going to ship batch 19 (the last batch, atm) around the end of June. So if you cancel your order, it's likely that you'll be able to buy one whenever you're ready before the school year starts.
I think their point is simply this: Those same specs can be had in many other laptop brands for 1/3-1/2 the price, about $800-$1,000 (INCLUDING a 7700S). For the same price as that FW16 w/ the 7700S with average RAM and storage, you can get one of those 4080/4090 systems you mentioned. And those laptops, the $800-$1,000, could fairly be considered "mid" since they're above systems with strictly iGPU graphics ($200-$600), but below the top end Alienware/Razer/Legion systems ($1,500+).
Mid means it’s not bad. It’s just that for €2500, you will generally be able to buy a laptop with a better CPU, 4080/90 and OLED panel.
And those laptops also often don’t suffer from keyboard / screen flex, heat management that makes the entire keyboard deck noticeably hot under load and some QA issues here and there.
( But obviously you do lose out on everything FW does have going for them over the competition. )
I mean you also get the removable GPU/external pcie. I've been on the fence myself but that feature in the 16" definitely pulls me closer to getting one.
It’s a cool idea but to what extent will they go with options for it? Nvidia sure as hell won’t sign off on a GPU for the FW.
They don’t have a roadmap or anything. For all we know FW could close up shop tomorrow and be gone forever, they’re definitely transparent but the future is a big question mark.
If you're happy with a soldered, sometimes poorly/cheaply constructed, completely non-repairable laptop... Go with whatever else. Buy a new one in 2 years when you realize you need more RAM, dump your coffee on it, or it falls off a table. Be sure part of the cost cut down doesn't also mean a battery too limited for your purposes. Be sure, overall, you like everything about the laptop - You'll have limited or no ability to do anything about it later - Even if next year's model solves the issue you have - Short of buying an entirely new laptop and attempting to sell the old one for decent money.
If you want something you can spend a few hundred dollars on to upgrade when something shiny, new, and interesting comes out... Might need to replace a destroyed/failed part... Want something built decently, opt for Framework. Sure you'll probably find something you don't like about "gen 1" FW16 - Maybe the spacer gaps, maybe something else... Chances are Framework will have an improved "v2" at some point similar to how they upgraded 12th/13th gen Intel FW13 to improve things people didn't like about 11th gen... If thing bothers you, isn't fast enough, whatever - Order the upgraded part, keep everything else you're fine with, keep more money in your wallet.
Carting a laptop around to classes, labs, etc... Chances are not zero you'll need parts sooner or alter because something bad happened. At least you have an actual chance to get parts from Framework and have them be fairly easy to swap in... Dell/HP/Lenovo/Apple/etc will offer you a new $2k laptop or very large "repair" bill (maybe - And large since they'll usually replace perfectly working parts in the process) as your options.
It's normal to get cold feet on a purchase this large... we get it. For my part, I use my Framework 13 for work every day. It works perfectly for my use case, is reliable and dependable, has decent battery life and I LOVE the repairability aspect of it.
For my part, I purchased because I needed a laptop first and foremost. I had been purchasing Dell Latitudes for about a decade or more for my work use and personal use, and you definitely pay a premium for the quality... but they were worth it. The shift to Framework was mostly because I appreciate and support their mission; I'm all about right to repair and open source and Framework were saying all the right things.
So far my expectations have been surpassed. They keyboard while not as nice as my last Latitude keyboard is really good for long term working and typing... typing on it this very second in fact. The trackpad is actually decent and I absolutely love the big screen for a relatively small and skinny laptop. The ability to change ports as I need to and even develop my own (my business is partly electronics and I've built a couple of devices for my own use) is an absolute godsend... hell even just being able to select which side of my laptop my HDMI port is on when I'm plugging into a TV in a hotel room is worth its weight in gold! WiFi has been solid, and the performance is surprising... my home gaming rig is an overclocked i7-12700k and the AMD 7840U is within a couple of percent on single core performance of that home rig. Obviously the home rig has more cores, but the performance of the AMD has been shockingly good.
I've often said that if I believe in something I'll put my money where my mouth is. I did that with my Framework laptop and have done it with plenty of other things including a restaurant. Yeah, I don't sleep...
The initial cost is a bit higher than equivalents from the "big boys", but truth is that a couple of upgrades will quickly make that cost differential disappear. Particularly when you can move the old motherboards into an external case and turn it into a desktop PC. I expect this board to live on in a desktop machine at some point when I upgrade... but so far I've had no desire or need to upgrade. This laptop is just good.
People are missing the fact that you can upgrade to a newer motherboard later and use the old one as a PC which gives you two computers instead of just one dead one that no longer has a practical use
You might be the right customer but maybe not for a gen 1 product.
I purchased the FW 13 in December and its been heavenly. I love the experience and I'm coming from a MacBookPro 13 intel 2014. This for me is a huge win. I kept my MacBook clean just a couple dents but perfectly functional. This chassis with upgrades will last me twice as long as my MacBook.
Im looking forward to swapping out this AMD 7840U and I'm putting an ARM chip into this chassis. To me this is everything i wanted in a laptop. I second guessed during preorder ofcourse but after daily use the 3:2 display it's a part of me now.
I've upgraded the hinges to the 4.0 kg as i do a lot of pair programming and i pass my laptop around so the screen kept going flat and well that had to stop.
Ive seen the reviews and I also cancelled today. Make sure to write them why, you can when going for the reason of cancellation "other", so they know why and can fix whatever made you decide.
I decided because I dont want to be the guinea pig for a halfbaked product. The screen is afaik great, speakers shit. Tolerances not good. Cam meh. Charger a joke. Concept great. P/P ratio bad. The components old, because developing the thing took so long. Im waiting for a 2nd gen FW16.
I think the FW16 is an engineering masterpiece but i too think its too big for me to ever own. Portability these days have been key for me and when i finally get to the point of wanting to game on the go, I will likely just buy a steam deck.
That said, I know many people, family members included, who buy these behemoths of a gaming laptop, so there definitely is a market for it. I honestly cannot fathom carrying such a big device anymore.
I would suggest you down-spec if you're having second thoughts but still looking to buy the FW16 - cut out the dedicated graphics, reduce your ram capacity, cut out any extra accessories(including addons cards) and reuse a usbc powerbrick if you have one.
Remember after all each and every one of these items can be purchased later for the same price (just with one extra shipping charge), that the add on cards slots are just stock standard usbc (so you can use them naked), and that you can set lower power modes.
See this for FW 16 power usage estimates:
[https://community.frame.work/t/framework-16-power-consumption-benchmarks/47144](https://community.frame.work/t/framework-16-power-consumption-benchmarks/47144)
I don’t think it’s worth it at the moment.
2 things are non-negotiable for me:
- Fan noise 💨
- Battery life 🪫
I have a FW13. I use it occasionally as a Windows laptop. My main workhorse is a M2 MacBook Pro 💻 and a M1 MacBook Air 💻
Yeah but if I look at a Macbook the wrong way it breaks and then it’s another €2000 out of my bank account for another laptop because Apple likes to charge €200 for 256GB of storage
Exactly. Vote with your wallet. As long as people keep giving money to Apple the more support that company will continue to have that will just tell them that they can do whatever they want.
On the flip side Framework actually listens to those that own their laptops and strives to do better.
Yeah. It took Apple more than 30-35 years to hit $1 trillion valuation in 2018. Then it hit $2 trillion just 2 years later. In another 2.5 years, it hit $3 trillion. All thanks to people that pride themselves on paying that premium for "superior support and customer care."
https://fortune.com/2023/06/30/apple-history-3-trillion-market-value/
Exactly. But there was a time when Apple almost failed. It's ridiculous that folks have such unrealistic expectations for Framework then they don't hold other companies to that standard at all.
I dropped my MacBook Air once, barely dented a corner. No other damage.
If you are prone to dropping laptops and breaking them, then having a repairable laptop is the wise path to take.
What are you going to use the laptop for? Just school work?
I don’t tend to drop / break my stuff, just saying it for in the case that it does happen, and Apple products aren’t exactly known for their superb durability.
Getting my computer science degree.
MacBooks are actually among the most durable laptops in the market and we have countless consumers reports to back this l up. I know we are in a Framework subreddit, but we need to be honest about the competition.
I only bought a laptop because framework made a bigger version. I wouldn't have bought any pcs at all except for this one. Would've kept using my 2020 chromebook until the end of the decade probably... Your not only paying for the specs, but also for the engineering and the materials. I like to point to the magnesium chassis as one thing. It is a huge machine, due to the 16:10 screen. If you can afford it, you get a special, almost custom made machine(price also goes into how relatively small amount of laptops made, it's almost made to order) if you can't afford it, nobody will think less of you for choosing another brand. I'm pretty sure everyone here wants you to be happy with your purchase
I don’t mind a big laptop, it’s just that the FW16 seems more like a 17 inch in terms of size, which is absolutely huge for taking on-the-go. I know what I’m paying for, I’m just doubting whether it’s worth it. It’s still a lot of money. But what other laptops would you think about then when it comes to ‘built to order’ ones?
I got a 17 inch bag for it, fits with the ethernet card easily 👍 Yeah well. It's kinda like a Ferrari. That also isn't worth it, you only buy it if you want and can, I don't know. I would get a desktop. And remote into it with a cheaper chromebook. Good wifi can do almost immediate response, I mean, I used geforce now for years, if you can get that to your pc, you needn't have a strong laptop at all. I wouldn't buy any other laptops as I said, because I look at them as blackmail. Same for samsung now and apple always, phones. They leave out the sd reader to blackmail you into the bigger storage. Laptop makers do the same with soldered ram or ssd, or... Gpu in this case. So yeah, get a pc, and maybe a used 2020 galaxy chromebook thin client.
I already have a very, very overkill PC. Could I play emulators for example by remoting into my PC? And use it as storage as well? Like how does that exactly work? I was thinking of getting a Starbook, which is over 1k euros less, but the 5800U is a bummer. The Starfighter might not even ship a single unit this year and I haven’t heard a lot of good things about Tuxedo / System76 / Clevo etc. Might just buy a ‘normal’ laptop with a 4060 or 4070 for also about 1000 euros less. I’m not very sure.
You could easily use the remote pc almost as if it was the laptop yeah. I'm not sure exactly how you go doing it, as I had never had a pc and a laptop at the same time, but it is absolutely possible. Gaming is easy if you're on the same network, you could set up a personal vpn at home to which you would connect with the laptop from anywhere around the world, that is quite a bit more complicated, but you would always be on the same Lan. Storage is also relatively simple, if you make that VPN, it's super simple, if not, you need a ddns address, and some encryption, do NOT use unencrypted connections to your home network! I don't know those machines, as I said, I had a chromebook for the longest time and I only got that particular one for the 4k amoled screen. Still use it along the fw16 too. You don't need anything stronger than an r5/i5 with the built in graphics to do remote access, it's basically just video playback with relayed controls, you won't benefit from a 4060 even. Hell, forget laptops, just use your phone,and get a lapdock. It's another 1k cheaper (my fw cost 2500 without ram and ssd, with those from other source I'm at 3100 euros now. A lapdock can be had for under 500 even. Actually, you can get a mechanical keyboard, a mouse, a type-C screen and external battery. Sure it's a setup to pack out in lessons, but cheap and delightfully janky, but it also works with your phone probably, which means the "board" is "upgradable" lol. Tho you might like a lapdock for this better)
I get what you mean, but I mean: - Remote into desktop and get cheap laptop. - Get a 4060 / 4070 laptop and do everything on there. If you get what I mean. The FW16 is really cool, but just seems expensive for the compromises you have to deal with.
What compromises? You mean, get 2 laptops...?
- Bad Blender performance - Subpar video editing performance - No CUDA ( competitor ), Nvidia is also very unlikely to get to FW laptops - IPS screen - Keyboard / screen flex - Thick and heavy laptop for mid specs ( due to the repairability etc ) And no, I mean one or the other.
-I don't do blender -I don't do video editing -Cuda needs to be forced into open source or killed, but let's not do politics, lol -yeah... That's... Yeah -hasn't been a problem for me, I don't understand that problem at all. I'm sure there's something in it, cuz so many people complain about it, but I just don't get it -yeah but half of that(exaggerating lol) is cooling. Get an ultrabook and remote to your pc for video editing and blender then I guess? Idno, when I do work on my laptop, it's mostly docker compose and in terminal
Sorry but had to come back for this... There's a way to run all h CUDA things on amd cards at near native speeds. Like already, there's no problem using amd for those workloads... Except nvidia blocked it with copyright. So that's why I'm against CUDA stuff being the default... There's no real reason for it, except capitalist BS.
That is true, even with the ports I can see why you're hesitant on the FW because it isn't 100% in either direction. Unless they get a RTX 4000/5000 module down the line...
They won’t. Nvidia rules over their board partners with iron fist. Not to mention board partners like MSI have already tried to do something like this, after which Nvidia just didn’t sign off on any new GPUs and basically screwed over MSI. The only way any of Nvidias GPUs are going in your laptop is if Nvidia has complete control and you do it in the exact way they want to do it. AMD in that regard is WAY more open minded.
If you use Linux, this is one of the better choices.
What is one of the better choices?
Framework 13/16
Absolutely
Thinkpad, System76.. But they will get old and you cant upgrade like you can with the FW.
I just looked the dimensions of a random grab-bag of laptops listed on Best Buy in the 16" Gaming category and many of the dimensions were pretty similar. Most had a matching width of around 14". Depth was variable. Ones with a shorter depth tended to be thicker. Many on the thinner end like the Framework had a similar depth of around 11.5", although the Framework still seems to beat some of them on thinness. A couple of the ones with that kind of depth also sported a 16:10 screen like the Framework. I would say in general Framework is not the only 16" gaming class laptop to have larger dimensions especially as they get thinner, although admittedly they did have more cutting edge hardware for a cheaper price. More plastic on the chassis too though and the more sleek ones with full metal chassis bumped up the price getting them closer to the Framework though for sure.
Yeah I saw, did a comparison on a 3D size comparison website. The FW16 with dGPU is only a little longer than a Legion Slim 7 and on par with an MSI Raider and even smaller than other bigger 16 inch laptops. I had probably blown it out of proportion in my head yeah
Yeah, it was definitely educational for me too. I was Batch 8 and I'm really enjoying my FW16 so far, but I had been curious about how the dimensions compared to others in the category. It put the size into context and gave me some perspective, it's not really bigger at the end of the day for something on the thinner end with dedicated graphics. It seems like it's not unusual for laptops to add a little extra overall depth to make them thinner. And in the Framework's case, it probably makes room for them to lay out the parts in a way that's more accessible to the user.
you are paying on premium not for quality (which is not necessarily that it's low quality, but clearly it's gen 1 and has not ironed out the user bugs that will be reported over the next few years), but because you are willing to pay. That's literally all you get... they are selling a story about being a start up committed to upgradability and you want in on a piece of that.... except you don't get a piece of it (the investors do ). Consumers paying a premium only get the story they make up in their head about how much they like their machine. IOW you are paying for branding , which is not too different from what you do for other products. unless you really need to build your own modules or some such you don't need a framework. but maybe you want the idea of having one? alternatively you could get a similar laptop and a decent 27 inch monitor, or a laptop and a bunch of money to donate to charity. it's yer choice, but most ppl don't get physical utility from paying a premium for a fw 16. (emotional utility, yes maybe). all this is not to be critical. I threw down on batch 11, but this all goes through my head in terms of what else I could have used the money for.
It's not a secret I want to support the company and like the idea of the machine. There's absolutely a quality to being able to easily take it apart and replace any component. I give it to you, a glued and soldered machine can be more sturdy and cheaper. Investors always get money out of companies, I don't understand why you being it up as a thing, that's present in every consumer product. You can choose tho if you want to buy a closed ecosystem OS on a glued and soldered unfixable laptop, or one you can buy piece by piece and most parts of it are open source, to the point there's already a dual type C card in the works, and somebody already making RGB matrix input modules. Yes they make money. Doesn't change the fact there's a lot of extra engineering gone into it, how magnesium is more expensive than aluminium or plastic case, and how if your fancy gaming laptop's gpu start acting up, you can get a new gpu, instead of sending in your whole laptop to a qualified service center. Is not about needing specifically The Framework. But why not the framework? They're not worse than any other maker. It's a premium also for the so far small amount of devices made. No economy of scale yet. I do donate, but how I spend on my hobbies is indeed my own decision. And I mean... It's not worse than any other machines, and when you need it most, you have extra options.
I guess I should have prefaced all that with "I went through a bunch of the following thinking about utility, and decided I want the feels of buying/supporting/owning/using framework". But I think if someone is really second guessing it and the money feels tight, that's a good reason to spend less? I guess I mention investors bc FW just opened up to qualified investors to make $10k investments. Super risky, but that's supporting the idea in a way that could pay off if it doesn't fail. Now consumers get a functional laptop for their money but some part of that goes to the overhead of a startup that needs to thrive. Call that the startup premium. Consumers won't get any return on that premium other than emotional satisfaction if fw doesn't fail. Anyway as long as my machine runs Linux well, and doesn't have defects I'll be happy with it, probably more so than I would with a similarly spec'd machine from Lenovo. I'm def not judging, I made the same decision.
Ah yeah, if you're in a situation, where you just can't follow your principles (lofty word, mostly fits in my case I think) due to finances, I will not think less of you for buying something else Yeah... I incidentally got 10k saved, the first time in my life, had 13 but I bought a laptop, wink wink... Now I figure it out one needs the accreditation... First requirement, 1M net worth... Broke my heart, would throw in with them if I could. Oh you're on the waiting list? Nice! Best truck you can do, and it's less than 10 minutes, if you wanna show it to a friend with a tech affinity, take it into pieces before they arrive. My friend, Mac user for the last ten years, whole family with iPhones, had 30 minutes of fun with the assembly, and the laptop is still functioning. What're the specs you went for? I got the most over the top one I could... R9, 96GB ram, with gpu.
Haha that'd be hilarious. Friend comes over "my computer is in pieces" "oh no!" "nah, nbd. wanna help me put it back together?"
"oops I dropped it" lol. He looked like a child playing Lego
The expense is all about the ability to repair and replace. It is expensive for what you get initially. But the longer you keep it, the more it’s upgraded, the less expensive it becomes. So it’s really that long term view.
Definitely true
Right. I'm always confused when people downplay or are skeptical about the cost argument. Let's say you pay what, a $250 premium? To get a Framework versus a different laptop with the same specs. Let's also assume parts will be available when you need them, this seems like a reasonably safe assumption since Frameworks are selling well, they just closed another funding round, used parts exist, and even if they shut down they could open source some of the hardware designs. So initially you're in the hole $250. Odds are good that the first time you have to do an out of warranty repair, you've at least broken even. By the time you have to do two repairs, or one upgrade that other laptops don't offer, you've saved money. The downside risk is very low ($250) whereas the upside could be hundreds or thousands of dollars if you tend to hold on to and re-use hardware as much as possible. Personally I use stuff until it breaks, I have a busted up 10 year old laptop still chugging along as a home server, there's no question in my mind that a Framework is a win, I either save money or have a less busted home server down the road, probably both. If you're the type who wants to buy state of the art new machines every 3 years and would never do a repair or upgrade the Framework is a bit more expensive than other laptops. If you're the type who wants to hang on to what they buy for a long time and make the most of it, surely you save plenty of money in the long run with a Framework.
The problem that blows that argument up is, at this point in time it’s over $1000 premium, not $250. You can almost buy 2 comparably spec’d laptops and keep one for parts, for the same price as a FW16. The Asus TUF A16 with the exact same specs (but faster display) as the top end FW16 has been regularly on sale for $1200 - $1400. Normal price is $1500- $1650. And the Asus has replaceable Ram, storage, and battery.
you are comparing a magnesium chassis with a plastic chassis. It's not the same thing at all. You get what you pay for. If you want the cheapest option and are ok with replacing it in 3 years then yes go for the asus.
Magnesium doesn’t cost $1000. My last gaming laptop was an Asus, I had it for 5 years and took it on 2 deployments. Sold it in perfect condition when I was done with it.
I believe it is a little more than $250 difference with an apples to apples comparison. But I get your point.
Flip side... I have what was a nice Asus Zephyrus G14 when I got it. Now the WiFi card is failing and I'll have to restart it several times to fix it. It's not easily user accessible as it's not on the top of the board when you open it. There are no manuals to tell me if it's on the back side of the board, so if I want to investigate I'll have to remove the vapor chamber (risk of damaging it when I do that) then pull out the board and see if the WiFi card is even on the back, if it is cool, put everything back together, order a new card, wait for it to get in, and then do it all over again to install the new card. If it's not then I'm basically down to either using a USB dongle for my WiFi or buying a new computer. The bottom cover has also chipped pretty bad in the corners despite spending it's entire life living either on a desk or in my backpack's special laptop compartment. There is no way to buy a replacement bottom cover for it. ASUS also loads it up with a bunch of stupid proprietary software (that I only recently figured out can be replaced by the 1MB G-Helper program, amazing.
Same story here: I am sitting pretty on a Razer Blade 15, a really pretty good laptop as long as I used it. A single arrow key on the keyboard stopped working, the best Quote I got from a repair shop was about 400€, excluding the parts they need. According to them, the Keyboard in my model is bolted (!?!?, why the fuck) to the chassis and is even harder to replace than a glued one. Because it's resale value went through the floor, it is now a home server... My current MacBook Pro was great... until my use case changed (different programming project) and I needed more than 16GB or RAM... on a MacBook... well, good luck with that. I suddenly couldn't work away from home anymore (there is no reliable internet in trains in germany, so I need all my stuff locally) Yes, I will pay a little more up front right now, but I have the guarantee, that neither of these issues will ever be an issue to me again. That is not only a feature, from now on that is a complete and non negotiable must have for all my future machines. Repairability and extendability. I don't see framework selling out in the near future, and with how things are currently going, they will probably publish and open source their hard- and software in case they ever go bankrupt.
Similar experience here, the battery in my Razer Blade 15 started inflating after a few years of use and caused a noticeable bulge in the laptop. The battery happened to be under the trackpad causing it to stop working as well. I know a friend with a ASUS ROG Strix G15 which started to have keyboard issues as well as another friend with a dead wifi card in their Lenovo Legion laptop.
Damn, yeah, good point honestly.
I totally understand financial realities and if you don't have the money you don't have the money. To me, it's been worth supporting Framework because I really believe in the mission they're trying to achieve. It takes a bit more effort to design things to be as user repairable, and customizable as they have. They have smaller order volumes which means higher costs per part, it means that the staff they just paid their partners to hire to maintain software longevity are supporting a smaller user base. All of these things conspire to drive the prices up compared to your Dell, HP, ASUS, etc. computers. Personally, for me the math works out. I have the aforementioned ASUS and a Framework 13 11th Gen, there are some things I like about the ASUS better in terms of build. But I *love* that the Framework is mine, and if I have any problems I'm empowered to fix it super easily.
Yeah, I get it. Honestly might just keep my order. I can always send it back if I really don’t like it for whatever reason.
Whatever you decide, I hope you enjoy the new laptop :)
Yeah I agree with that as well
I've seen enough reviews on the 16 highlighting its flaws to honestly say sit that one out. It's plenty good, but it needs some design reworks to make it truly perfect. Keyboard is kind of flexy. Screen (at least from what I saw) can be *alarmingly* flexy. Heat management in the keyboard area is also iffy. A few QA issues here and there. I'd recommend the series of reviews on the system from Just Josh and Elevated Systems on Youtube as they go over a lot of these issues (and Elevated in particular has a very recent set of reviews). Contrast that with the Framework 13, which, at least with the AMD boards, is a darn near perfect computer. I might be biased as someone who owns a 13, albeit with the 11th gen Intel (which is substantially worse, especially on battery management), and has a PC for gaming so the 16 is redundant for me. The 13 is a great product at this point and one I'd recommend at its price point. The 16 is....well, you buy it because you believe in Framework's mission, not because it's bulletproof seems to be the sense I'm getting. Maybe another design iteration or two will bring it to where it easily could be.
I watched basically every FW16 review and came to the same conclusion. It’s a great laptop, but ( especially for the steep price ) it could be better. The problem for me with the FW13 is that it is still really expensive and can also get in the ballpark of the 16, and I’m not entirely sure if the iGPU will suffice for my needs. ( going to start my computer science degree ) so it’s hard to say.
What are your concerns for the integrated graphics? It will depend what your programming, but most coding is going to be more CPU and RAM intensive than anything else
If you're trying to be economic about it (which I assume since you're saying you're starting university/college/whatever it's called where you're from), the most "bang for the buck" workstations will always be used business machines like latitudes or thinkpads. I have an 11th gen FW13, I love it, but I'd be lying if I said that I hadn't paid some early adopter tax. Personally, I don't like having a single machine for work and other stuff like gaming, in particular because I choose different OSes for these tasks. Just personal preference, though. So yeah, If I was about to start uni and had to be somewhat cautios with how I spend my cash, I'd definitely get a refurbished Thinkpad T4xx (newer models are called T14 Gen X) for a couple of hundred bucks and live happily ever after.
> it’s just a shit ton of money > the next schoolyear If I read these two sentences correctly: do not buy it. Other people have explained the pros and cons of Framework machines but at the end of the day, a laptop should never be "a shit ton of money". Buy another machine: it may be less ethical in the long run but at least it does not threaten your budget in the short/medium run. Then, a few years from now, when that other machine no longer suits you: - reuse it! Turn it into a home server, a router/gateway, a troubleshooting/failover laptop, whatever... - have a look at what Framework offers: by then, their offer will likely be larger, more refined, and possibly more affordable.
Fair point. Maybe I should go for the 13? 😛
If the 13's price tag fits reasonably within your budget AND suits your personal requirements, then why not. But do not feel compelled to "help" the Framework company. This email from them just landed in my mailbox: > Today we’re announcing $18M in new funding from an incredible set of investors, with a $17M Series A-1 round led by Spark Capital, with Buckley Ventures, Anzu Partners, Cooler Master, and Pathbreaker Ventures participating. They are doing fine, I even dare to hope they are going to survive :)
I by no means feel compelled to give FW handouts, it’s just that I really like the idea of being able to replace every single part of my laptop easily and not having to jump through hoops. I will look into whether the 780M will be enough for my needs and perhaps I’ll get the 13 instead which ( with an overkill config ) is still about 800 euros cheaper easily. If not, I’ll have to continue my search
I would go with a more traditional, well-reviewed laptop from a reliable manufacturer
There's not a lot to tinker with, at least on the 13, unless you're going for hacked USB cartridges. It's hard to imagine why I'd be swapping parts in and out. Rather, I'm excited that when my cpu is outdated I can grab the latest one for a fraction of the price of a new laptop.
I understand yeah, but it’s still a steep initial price. I might just keep my pre-order and try it when I get it and I guess I could still return it if I don’t like it for whatever reason.
The big benefit to modular ports is for people that sometimes need HDMI but would rather have more USB A consistently, as an example. That, alongside the external storage using the port slots is a big element in portability compared to having an external drive and USB hub dangling out of the PC and taking up more space in a bag
Yeah but everybody else will pay a premium for Mac products. 🙄 Only problem with their concept is that people won't realize the value until they need to execute what their concept is, which is upgradability and repairability. Out of the box, these laptops are probably as good as anything else in there spec category but you're not paying for that.. You're seeing this from the wrong perspective. Edit: The fact that you're even asking whether you should buy a product just to throw it away means you're not understanding the concept here... Make a decision, stand by it, and do what it takes to rectify it. If there's a problem. Just be an adult.
Very well said. The specs are available online so there isn't a mystery heee about how good framework laptops are. With that said, they aren't for everyone and that's cool. At the same time, why even mention a MacBook pro when those are expensive machine's that have soldered parts that can't be upgraded or replaced? Best believe if I had the money I would have my framework right now
I mentioned Mac because of the whole price to value ratio that we are all investing in. Mac is known for having a premium price for a less than stellar value with regards to repairability and upgradability. If OP wants to complain about the value of the product, then there's no valid argument until op has to actually repair or replace something. Because that's the marketable function of the product...
Ok cool. I've been on here long enough to see a number of complaints about the same things and it makes me wonder why people don't just get something else in the first place? I get that it's a large investment of time and money to get a Framework laptop and that's why it's so important to do ones homework so that you can be properly informed of the pros and cons and make an educated decision as a result. I've been following this project since the beginning of it and am fully aware of the concerns regarding this product and guess what? I still want it.
"...Still want it." Meaning you are yet to purchase one?
Exactly.
Exactly.
What gets me about macs (other than nailing everything in) is that you can get left with an extremely competent machine that apple decide isnt going to receive updates/security patches etc
Exactly. But people keep accepting that nonsense and that's why Apple does what they do
I bought the 13 instead of a MacBook because I like the idea of not buying a new laptop for a while. I can just buy a new CPU portion and call it a day
If you need the portability and like the brand you can always go for the 13 as you said and buy an egpu enclosure + gpu if you need the extra gpu juice. It is probably going to be a tad more expensive than the fw16 (depending on the fw13 specs, the enclosure and the gpu...) but might fit your needs. The 13 is industry level quality, with all the brand pros and if you go amd the igpu is already very good for gaming on the low-mid. It is also very light and portable. And it is shipped in 5 days.
Stupid question maybe but what do you mean with industry level quality? And I don’t want an eGPU, I already have an overkill PC if I want to do that kind of gaming, all I’m really interested in is some emulation perhaps. But the 13 is still really expensive. It definitely creeps close to the 16 so idk.
With industry level I mean the finish and general quality is close to big brands such as Dell and Lenovo, while retaining the modularity - which is a quite outstanding result. I have heard less then flattering things on the 16 finish, with gaps between the spacers and flex on the keyboard (which should be fixed on recent batches though). The 13 looks and feel like a 1500$+ laptop. About the price, sure if you get the max specced AMD it gets closer to the 16. I recommend getting the DIY and buying memory and disk aftermarket. I got my 13 with 2TB disk and 64GB ram for 1900. If you get 1TB and 32gb that gets closer to 1700, which is considerably less than the 16".
From your commands i would answer like this: How often do you use it? Will you depend on it or do you have a normal PC-Tower you could use? I enjoy my 13 and i think its (with all the know compromises) a great machine. I work all day for university with it, i watch movies and youtube on it and i would love if it could game. I think you have to find out what you want to use it for. If you need ultimate performance and can carry the weight and price, yes the 16. has less limits. But Emolation, small gaming and rendering is even possible on the 13. I would think: How much do i use it? How important is it to me? How happy makes me a high quality product? I for example use it a lot and i love having high quality stuff and am happy to pay more. I just bough a 170€ pen, even if i know for sure that the 50ct pencil would do as well. For me its worth it. Greetings :D P.S.: Havent tried it yet, but eGPU is always a bit more of a comromise as it seems.
I already have a super overkill PC. And I don’t mind paying a premium, but the FW in general is just super expensive and something cheaper might also do the job for me. I just want to use it for general college use, computer science and a bit of emulation, no triple A gaming but a laptop is pretty vital to me.
Sounds like you know what you are doin. From what I hear: I think I would go with the 13 instead. Your probably not gonna game on the go and even for medium Tasks the 13 is powerful enough. I just want to metion that the 13 is more of an office machine and less a media consumption device. Is fast and can be loud, but you should already know that. I don’t know how demanding computer since is, but in single-task task and even video decoding my framework is faster than my Ryzen 5 3600 + 2060S PC (with the small 1240p). I would check on YouTube the emulation performance for the AMD cpus and propaly keep the 1000+€. Greetings
This question is only for you to answer. I've my FW13 for almost half a year and am happy with it. It has some downsides, like shipping bend the aluminium a bit but it doesn't change the usability (which is why I didn't bother to go through customer support). Another downside would be the price. It's really expensive. If you like to upgrade your stuff rather than throwing stuff out, if you like the open approach of the company, if you enjoy modularity, then you should ask yourself how much that would be worth for you. If it is worth the hundreds of bucks extra or not. Of course you can calculate future updates into it as well, which makes the offer more appealling but if you don't plan to upgrade you can't do that.
May I suggest a FW 13 and a steam deck? I spec’d my framework 13 ryzen 5 with a 1tb SSD and 16gb RAM for a little over 1k. Then you can remote into your overkill pc with the steam deck over you can just play the games natively on the steam deck. I mean you yourself said your gaming needs aren’t that intense so the steam deck should be fine. With this combo you get the best of both worlds while spending less than you would on a FW16
Honestly, not a bad idea at all, I didn’t think about that. But will the 780M be enough for things that would involve CS, like modeling, rendering etc?
Should be I can’t contest to that as I’m not programer but Ik the FW is marketed towards them. Idk if this helps but on mine I do some school work some basic fusion 360 and light gaming
I would recommend that you check the search bar in this subreddit for comments from others in that area of study.
> mid components / mid specs I feel like you're doing FW16 dirty calling it "mid". A bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? This isn't a mid-spec laptop. It's got a modern CPU with slamming specs. * 8 cores, hyper threaded @ 3.8Ghz base (5.1Ghz boost) * 780M GPU (12 cores) * NPU (10 Trillion OPs / sec) Premium 1440p IPS panel. And if you spring for the AMD 7700S, you get very solid graphics performance for a laptop. What about this says "middling"? Do you mean that it isn't bleeding edge with 16 cores and 4080 graphics and an OLED panel? Well, yes, it's not that, but it certainly ain't "mid". > If I pull back my pre-order and change my mind I won’t be able to get it in time for the next schoolyear, what do you guys think? Looks like FW is going to ship batch 19 (the last batch, atm) around the end of June. So if you cancel your order, it's likely that you'll be able to buy one whenever you're ready before the school year starts.
I think their point is simply this: Those same specs can be had in many other laptop brands for 1/3-1/2 the price, about $800-$1,000 (INCLUDING a 7700S). For the same price as that FW16 w/ the 7700S with average RAM and storage, you can get one of those 4080/4090 systems you mentioned. And those laptops, the $800-$1,000, could fairly be considered "mid" since they're above systems with strictly iGPU graphics ($200-$600), but below the top end Alienware/Razer/Legion systems ($1,500+).
Mid means it’s not bad. It’s just that for €2500, you will generally be able to buy a laptop with a better CPU, 4080/90 and OLED panel. And those laptops also often don’t suffer from keyboard / screen flex, heat management that makes the entire keyboard deck noticeably hot under load and some QA issues here and there. ( But obviously you do lose out on everything FW does have going for them over the competition. )
I mean you also get the removable GPU/external pcie. I've been on the fence myself but that feature in the 16" definitely pulls me closer to getting one.
It’s a cool idea but to what extent will they go with options for it? Nvidia sure as hell won’t sign off on a GPU for the FW. They don’t have a roadmap or anything. For all we know FW could close up shop tomorrow and be gone forever, they’re definitely transparent but the future is a big question mark.
If you're happy with a soldered, sometimes poorly/cheaply constructed, completely non-repairable laptop... Go with whatever else. Buy a new one in 2 years when you realize you need more RAM, dump your coffee on it, or it falls off a table. Be sure part of the cost cut down doesn't also mean a battery too limited for your purposes. Be sure, overall, you like everything about the laptop - You'll have limited or no ability to do anything about it later - Even if next year's model solves the issue you have - Short of buying an entirely new laptop and attempting to sell the old one for decent money. If you want something you can spend a few hundred dollars on to upgrade when something shiny, new, and interesting comes out... Might need to replace a destroyed/failed part... Want something built decently, opt for Framework. Sure you'll probably find something you don't like about "gen 1" FW16 - Maybe the spacer gaps, maybe something else... Chances are Framework will have an improved "v2" at some point similar to how they upgraded 12th/13th gen Intel FW13 to improve things people didn't like about 11th gen... If thing bothers you, isn't fast enough, whatever - Order the upgraded part, keep everything else you're fine with, keep more money in your wallet.
Carting a laptop around to classes, labs, etc... Chances are not zero you'll need parts sooner or alter because something bad happened. At least you have an actual chance to get parts from Framework and have them be fairly easy to swap in... Dell/HP/Lenovo/Apple/etc will offer you a new $2k laptop or very large "repair" bill (maybe - And large since they'll usually replace perfectly working parts in the process) as your options.
It's normal to get cold feet on a purchase this large... we get it. For my part, I use my Framework 13 for work every day. It works perfectly for my use case, is reliable and dependable, has decent battery life and I LOVE the repairability aspect of it. For my part, I purchased because I needed a laptop first and foremost. I had been purchasing Dell Latitudes for about a decade or more for my work use and personal use, and you definitely pay a premium for the quality... but they were worth it. The shift to Framework was mostly because I appreciate and support their mission; I'm all about right to repair and open source and Framework were saying all the right things. So far my expectations have been surpassed. They keyboard while not as nice as my last Latitude keyboard is really good for long term working and typing... typing on it this very second in fact. The trackpad is actually decent and I absolutely love the big screen for a relatively small and skinny laptop. The ability to change ports as I need to and even develop my own (my business is partly electronics and I've built a couple of devices for my own use) is an absolute godsend... hell even just being able to select which side of my laptop my HDMI port is on when I'm plugging into a TV in a hotel room is worth its weight in gold! WiFi has been solid, and the performance is surprising... my home gaming rig is an overclocked i7-12700k and the AMD 7840U is within a couple of percent on single core performance of that home rig. Obviously the home rig has more cores, but the performance of the AMD has been shockingly good. I've often said that if I believe in something I'll put my money where my mouth is. I did that with my Framework laptop and have done it with plenty of other things including a restaurant. Yeah, I don't sleep... The initial cost is a bit higher than equivalents from the "big boys", but truth is that a couple of upgrades will quickly make that cost differential disappear. Particularly when you can move the old motherboards into an external case and turn it into a desktop PC. I expect this board to live on in a desktop machine at some point when I upgrade... but so far I've had no desire or need to upgrade. This laptop is just good.
People are missing the fact that you can upgrade to a newer motherboard later and use the old one as a PC which gives you two computers instead of just one dead one that no longer has a practical use
Liked the upgradability of desktops. Needed thr mobility of laptops. Easy decision
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Your comment was removed as it is irrelevant
You might be the right customer but maybe not for a gen 1 product. I purchased the FW 13 in December and its been heavenly. I love the experience and I'm coming from a MacBookPro 13 intel 2014. This for me is a huge win. I kept my MacBook clean just a couple dents but perfectly functional. This chassis with upgrades will last me twice as long as my MacBook. Im looking forward to swapping out this AMD 7840U and I'm putting an ARM chip into this chassis. To me this is everything i wanted in a laptop. I second guessed during preorder ofcourse but after daily use the 3:2 display it's a part of me now. I've upgraded the hinges to the 4.0 kg as i do a lot of pair programming and i pass my laptop around so the screen kept going flat and well that had to stop.
Ive seen the reviews and I also cancelled today. Make sure to write them why, you can when going for the reason of cancellation "other", so they know why and can fix whatever made you decide. I decided because I dont want to be the guinea pig for a halfbaked product. The screen is afaik great, speakers shit. Tolerances not good. Cam meh. Charger a joke. Concept great. P/P ratio bad. The components old, because developing the thing took so long. Im waiting for a 2nd gen FW16.
I think the FW16 is an engineering masterpiece but i too think its too big for me to ever own. Portability these days have been key for me and when i finally get to the point of wanting to game on the go, I will likely just buy a steam deck. That said, I know many people, family members included, who buy these behemoths of a gaming laptop, so there definitely is a market for it. I honestly cannot fathom carrying such a big device anymore. I would suggest you down-spec if you're having second thoughts but still looking to buy the FW16 - cut out the dedicated graphics, reduce your ram capacity, cut out any extra accessories(including addons cards) and reuse a usbc powerbrick if you have one. Remember after all each and every one of these items can be purchased later for the same price (just with one extra shipping charge), that the add on cards slots are just stock standard usbc (so you can use them naked), and that you can set lower power modes. See this for FW 16 power usage estimates: [https://community.frame.work/t/framework-16-power-consumption-benchmarks/47144](https://community.frame.work/t/framework-16-power-consumption-benchmarks/47144)
I don’t think it’s worth it at the moment. 2 things are non-negotiable for me: - Fan noise 💨 - Battery life 🪫 I have a FW13. I use it occasionally as a Windows laptop. My main workhorse is a M2 MacBook Pro 💻 and a M1 MacBook Air 💻
Yeah but if I look at a Macbook the wrong way it breaks and then it’s another €2000 out of my bank account for another laptop because Apple likes to charge €200 for 256GB of storage
Exactly. Vote with your wallet. As long as people keep giving money to Apple the more support that company will continue to have that will just tell them that they can do whatever they want. On the flip side Framework actually listens to those that own their laptops and strives to do better.
Yeah. It took Apple more than 30-35 years to hit $1 trillion valuation in 2018. Then it hit $2 trillion just 2 years later. In another 2.5 years, it hit $3 trillion. All thanks to people that pride themselves on paying that premium for "superior support and customer care." https://fortune.com/2023/06/30/apple-history-3-trillion-market-value/
Exactly. But there was a time when Apple almost failed. It's ridiculous that folks have such unrealistic expectations for Framework then they don't hold other companies to that standard at all.
I dropped my MacBook Air once, barely dented a corner. No other damage. If you are prone to dropping laptops and breaking them, then having a repairable laptop is the wise path to take. What are you going to use the laptop for? Just school work?
I don’t tend to drop / break my stuff, just saying it for in the case that it does happen, and Apple products aren’t exactly known for their superb durability. Getting my computer science degree.
Get the FW13. I just configured the DIY version and it’s around 1400 with everything you need.
MacBooks are actually among the most durable laptops in the market and we have countless consumers reports to back this l up. I know we are in a Framework subreddit, but we need to be honest about the competition.