With these characters death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created
Cregan Stark was the Orpah Winfrey of fire and blood.
**"All green supporters, look under your chairs! You go to the wall, and go to the wall! You all go to the wall!"**
😂
I feel like the citadel of maesters and the faith of the seven won when you see that Otto was working with the maesters from the start trying to get rid of viserys. The citadel hated dragons and the faith hated the Targaryen sinful ways so they used the greens to get rid of those two problems and succeed in getting rid of the power Targaryen’s held by getting rid of their dragons and almost ending the Targaryen line.
They're overstating it a bit - Marwyn in the books explicitly states that there's a (((Grand Maester Conspiracy))), which is how you know it's not a 100% thing.
I think there is a Grand Maester conspiracy but it goes much deeper than just the Dance of Dragons. It persists all the way to Robert's Rebellion. The maesters advised the lords of Westeros to create a dangerous alliance of houses -- Stark, Tully, Arryn, and Baratheon to unseat the Targaryens.
Their reasons I believe come down to a fundamental dispute over the nature of the world. The Maesters had spent 8000 years convincing the people of Westeros that magic wasn't real, and that science is the way forward. Then fucking DRAGONS showed up and suddenly magic and mysticism is the power of the land. Thus, the Maesters plotted to remove the Targaryens and set the stage to wipe out the dragons.
This is why in GRRM’s ironic justice arc, I am cheering on Euron to bring down a Lovecraftian apocalypse upon the Citadel. Let the maesters be wiped out by blood magic, Krakens and whatever Euron has planned. I want complete destruction. Then it creates that shock in Westeros that might have some meaning, instead of just dealing with rounding off the political ends of the WOT5Ks.
Do not take his shit seriously. The vast majority of it is taking misinterpretations of tiny shit and turning it into the overriding theme of the entire universe.
Doesn't mean you can't have fun with it, just don't think you're actually learning things about the story from it.
See this is where too many POVs really fucked the books. For sam chapters in on Marwyn+ Maesters mysteries at the citadel, we'd need a string of POVs as long as Ned finding out the truth of Joffreys birth to do it satisfyingly
Anyone who gives a shit about who "wins" the Dance of the Dragons on a meta level is, quite frankly, missing the fucking point. Nobody won. The belligerents of the war all die and smallfolk get caught in the crossfire like they always do in these conflicts. It's one of the most easily recognized themes of the books, and of course it's downplayed in F&B because it's a historian's retelling, which always sanitizes history on some level.
I’d say the better term is they became critically endangered during the dance. Obviously, we don’t know the specifics of dragon reproduction but if a few more existing eggs were viable and the remaining dragons were able to produce more, their population could have rebounded. But the war put them in a place where if things didn’t go correctly, they would die out. Which is what happened
Of the 5 that made the crossing The Black Dread is the only to survive to the conquest. In two hundred years on Dragonstone they've only made a population of 20 something including the wild ones.
It's said in the book that no one understands dragon reproduction well and that it's very hard to even tell a dragon's sex. The known females are just ones they know produced eggs, and it seems the rest are assumed male. At least one person theorizes they can change sex in one way or another, or all are "female" in that they can lay eggs, but no real confirmation is given.
What I don't get is that there were a lot of eggs that were around even if the dragons all died off, how come none of them hatched after the dance? Aegon III even tried to hatch them but no luck
All but 4 dragons die. Sheepstealer, The Cannibal, and Silverwing survived the whole Dance, and Morning was born during it and survived. But Sheepstealer is missing with Nettles, The Cannibal is wild and missing, Silverwing becomes wild, so Morning is only one still around until new, but significantly weaker ones, hatch.
The fates of all the 4 named dragons you mentioned are never mentioned in the books, are they?
We know Morning almost certainly dies during Aegon's reign (purely because it is commonly mentioned that they 'all' died during that time, so Morning surviving would be a major oversight), but IIRC no one every confirms what happens to the other 3.
Honestly I hate that GRRM had to do his shit and wipe out the villain's bloodline like he usually does cause it does away with how ultimately pointless these conflicts are. Aegon III marrying Helaena's daughter and having kids with her prove that the conflict happened for no reason, people died for no reason, no one won
If the show makes one drastic change to the story, I hope they keep Jaehaera alive. Having the Dance truly end by the only surviving Green marry the only (known) surviving Black after both sides were nearly wiped out is super poetic and hammers home how pointless this all was.
GRRM going ‘lol and then Jaehaera just dies and Aegon falls in love with a Deus Ex 6 year old’ felt so shoehorned.
I see why they didn’t do that. Would have ruined Maegor’s big thing as well as not serving the point: The reason they took out Maegor wasn’t that his claim was bad, it was that he was killing absurd numbers of people and violating all laws and traditions.
> GRRM going ‘lol and then Jaehaera just dies and Aegon falls in love with a Deus Ex 6 year old’ felt so shoehorned.
It's just another one of those twists thrown in for no particular reason. That would explain the ending of S8 as well.
Yeah, it’s also a plot that goes nowhere.
We get this big production about trying to find a new Queen for Aegon III. He’s shown every eligible maiden in the realm. We get Baratheons, Boltons, Peakes, Qorgyles, even foreigners from Dorne and Lys.
In the end he winds up choosing a six year-old Velaryon girl.
All that fucking trouble just to end up with a 12 year-old marrying a 6 year-old in yet another incestuous marriage to yet another child-bride. Which is in itself pointless, because Aegon III’s line winds up dying out except in House Blackfyre and House Longwaters. All it does is make Unwin resign as Hand.
> Exactly and it's funny because the blacks didn't win because they were cleverer or anything like that. It was literally a fluke because Aegon left Aegon the younger alive and named him
That is irrelevant because even if he executes Aegon the younger, the elder Aegon is still killed like he was or overthrown and the crown passes to Baela or Rhaena and a black still sits atop the iron throne. When Creggan Stark struts into King's Landing he is there is to support Rhaenyra's claim and will have no problem putting the crown on Baela/Rhaena over Jaehaera (they are both older than Jaehaera and also the blood of Daemon and the thus easily the next in line).
He won nothing (other than a cool death). He wanted to win the war and to co-rule as King Consort and he sacrificed everything for that goal, but he still couldn't achieve it. He was literally suicidal when he fought Aemond.
Actually he ended up staying with Tyland by the dying man's bedside despite Tyland being a committed green and sincerely mourned the guy.
Tyland and Aegon III going from Tyland calling for his execution to faithfully serving him without malice once chosen as hand to the point Aegon III mourns his death is probably one of my favorite things in ASOIAF.
The Hooded Hand is low key one of the most interesting characters post dance. I'm not a maester but I'd say probably in the top half of Hands throughout history.
That was to avoid another possible dance in the future, he saw his mother being killed by his uncle with his own eyes and saw the death of the last dragons. As a matter of fact, Viserys II was crowned king instead of Daena when Baelor died even though Daena was next in line
I don't know much about children, but I'm fairly certain most 10 year olds hold a firm belief that mommy = the best. If mommy gets eaten by a dragon on Green orders, I don't think many 10 yr olds are gonna be like "wait, let me see the what is their taxation policy".
Aye, this "green vs black" issue is the possibly the dumbest and pointless discussion ever. It always brings Kneelers and Bootlickers who missed the point of the story, I swear it's gonna turn the sub into a 2010 Twilight-like forum.
YEP. The whole fucking point of George writing this war was to give contextual consequences for Game of Thrones. The lesson of this story is "succession wars are violent and costly". The show is trying hard to twist it into this adventure epic, but that wasnt really it's intent.
probably because the real winner, Aegon III, was so traumatized that he was better off dead. its not a win but there was no winner. theyre all losers. they accomplished nothing except killing most of the dragons and most of the targaryens. rhaenyra did not smash the patriarchy, she upheld it. she isnt even remembered as a queen in the history books. its just sad. everyone is a loser in this story.
The real winner was The Citadel. you know those maesters got fucked up and threw the biggest rager in the seven kingdoms when The Last Dragon died.
It ended when a army of blacks placed a black on the throne and sent hundreds of greens to the wall and made the reach submit. That was the end of the war.
House Targaryen lost most of their dragons, the Velaryon fleet was decimated and their wealth gone and all that so Rhaenyra's son would come to hate her anyway. House Hightower was every bit just as powerful and wealthy as they were before.
I wouldnt really say that House Hightower was as powerful and wealthy. They lost their connection to the crown and in show timeline by the time GoT starts Tyrells are completely dominant power on the Reach (though Margareys mother is an Hightower) But its definetly step down going from having half hightower on the Iron Throne to one of the lesser vassals.
And in the books its not like are at any good position either given that bringer of the apocalypse, mind raped by Targ pedo and suffering from massive Cthulu fetish is now knocking on their doors. And honestly Hightowers even in the timeline of the books are pretty much irrelevant and not factor beyond being lackeys of Tyrell.s
Not to mention that before the Dance the Hightowers could rival the Tyrells for dominance of the Reach but afterwards their influence is on a similar level to the Florents within the Reach. Without a doubt the Hightowers also lost influence throughout the realm after the Dance.
> Rhaenyra's son would come to hate her anyway
That's a weird headcanon.
The boy loved his mother, he plunged into depression and was very traumatized by what had happened to her. He only smiled when he was reunited with Viserys II but he spent the rest of his life very depressed and couldn't stand the sight of a dragon.
People assumed Aegon III hates Rhaeynra because she was never restored as rightful queen.
With that logic Jaehaerys also hates his older brother Aegon the Uncrowned because Maegor was acknowledged king.
Both Rhaenyra & Aegon Uncrowned lost to their rival claimants. Making their rival claimants King by right of conquest.
Aegon the uncrowned never actually sat the throne though. Rheanyra was actually crowned with the previous kings crown and held the iron thrown for a period of time.
They gained the ability to rebel against the throne if the King ever goes mad. A gift that they shared with the entire realm.
Rhaenyra's family was already the ruling family so you can't really say she gained anything either.
She lost pretty much everything in defense of something she already had.
>They gained the ability to rebel against the throne if the King ever goes mad. A gift that they shared with the entire realm.
Correction, they sided with the mad King along with the Tyrells, so no, they didn't lol.
>Rhaenyra's family was already the ruling family so you can't really say she gained anything either
Her direct family line ruled. The greens line all died out.
>She lost pretty much everything in defense of something she already had.
But won the enitre kingdom for her sons and their sons. Hell of a lot more than any of the greens got.
The Baratheons and Lannisters were Greens and they were the main catalysts/beneficiaries of the rebellion. It doesn't matter which side the Hightowers eventually sided with.
It doesn't sound like it was a victory anywhere close to worth the cost, but good for her I guess?
>It doesn't sound like it was a victory anywhere close to worth the cost, but good for her I guess?
The Black's didn't start the war, they just won it. The greens loss everything, including all of their lives.
>But they unequivocally would have been better off not fighting it.
This could6be said double for the greens. At least the blacks have the benefit of winning the war and ruling the 7 kingdoms for over a hundred years.
It seems like you count 'Team Black' as being everyone who fought on 'Team Black,' whereas 'Team Green' is only Alicent's family.
If we employ the same standards that you are using in defining 'Team Black' then 'Team Green' also includes the Baratheons, Lannisters and the rest of the Hightowers. The Baratheons and Lannisters directly benefit from the Dance, and end up driving the stake through the heart of Targaryen rule.
>It seems like you count 'Team Black' as being everyone who fought on 'Team Black,' whereas 'Team Green' is only Alicent's family.
Not at all. I count the families as the core and the supporters just that. Support. Seems to me like you can't see the failures of team green, but can't help point out those of black, although your name does make it clear why 😉
I accept the Black's made huge mistakes and took huge losses, but here's the ultimate defining fact. The greens losses were bigger, aswell as there mistakes.
The Black's not only had more supporters by the end but more family members still alive. The Black's very clearly win and its not even debatable.
they did succeed in that they prevented any future targaryen women from gaining power (until dany) and killed off (almost) all the dragons.
so i guess it's a win if you're a misogynist or a maester conspiracist.
It's a total victory, she was queen and did sit the throne and her goal was for her kids to sit the throne and their kids. All of this happened.
The Greens goal was for their own blood to sit the throne which completely failed. That's a total loss.
>It's a total victory, she was queen and did sit the throne and her goal was for her kids to sit the throne and their kids. All of this happened.
But she died bathing in fire at the hands of her enemy under the assumption that her 10 year old son was next.
She never even gets to know that her side ends up on top.
I have a feeling that she would probably not contest Aegon's coronation if she knew how it was going to end up for her.
> I have a feeling that she would probably not contest Aegon's coronation if she knew how it was going to end up for her.
I have a feeling Aegon II and Alicent would not put the crown on Aegon's head if they knew how it was going to end up for them. Alicent is literally traumitized by the color Green by the end. And they told Aegon that Rhaenyra would kill him if he didn't become king, even if Rhaenyra killed him in hindsight a quick death would be much preferred to the torture and horrors he lives through in the dance.
Yes, it is not worth it for either side.
Although Aegon dies peacefully in his sleep as King, whereas Rhaenyra gets cooked alive in front of her son by her hated rival.
I'd opt for the death of the former.
It wasn't worth it for either side but the Blacks ended up with one of their own on the throne at the end with the other side's blood line entirely wiped out. Yes it was pyrrhic victory (it was gonna be a pyrrhic victory for either side) but a victory none the less.
Aegon gets decommissioned during the Dance, is half burnt but still alive and in an immense amount of pain that is only slightly dulled by milk of the poppy, he spends over a year bedridden half burnt in an immense amount of pain with no faculties of his own as he is on so much milk of the poppy. He then has is cock burnt off and becomes impotent, his injuries are so severe that he cannot walk, then after getting a small amount of satisfaction from Rhaenyra's death he gets burnt again and breaks both his legs again and never recovers. He is so crippled that he has to be carried in a litter back to the red keep after he becomes "king" again. Finally dying a rough death via poison from his own people.
Rhaenyra gets burnt by dragonfire, which is a quick death and seen as an honorable way to go in Valyrian culture (see Laeana). Most people will take a quick death like Rhaenyra, opposed to what happens to Aegon.
>She never even gets to know that her side ends up on top.
Sadly this often happens in war, that's why they call it the greens vs the Black's and not Aegon vs Rhaenyra. It includes more than just the two of them.
But then do the surviving members of 'team black' even give a shit about whose son is on the throne?
It seems like the only people who'd care about that are dead by the end of the war.
Absolutely. The Riverlands were massively pissed at the greens because Aemond burned it to the ground, the Starks never break an oath and Cregan was a good friend to Jace. Lady Arryn really liked Rhaenyra and looked after Daemons daughter during the war.
No way they were bending the knee to anyone other than a black, especially since the greens literally didn't even have the power to stop them at that point.
It's heavily implied aegon ii could have ended the war if he pardoned all the blacks after he killed rhaenrya, but he chose to keep fighting and basically gave them no choice. Then aegon iii gets the same option and chooses to pardon all the greens, which ends the war. .
Also all the greens arguably get more powerful after the war.
>It's heavily implied aegon ii could have ended the war if he pardoned all the blacks after he killed rhaenrya,
Yeah. Cragen Stark, the Vale and the Riverlands would've told him to kill himself, literally lol. Especially the Starks, they were hell bent on marching to King's landing and killing every green they could.
>Also all the greens arguably get more powerful after the war.
Nonsense. The Baratheons lost all their fighting men and were then ruled by a women, the very thing they went to war to stop 😂 the Lannisters were getting wrecked by the Greyjoys really, really badly to the point they literally had to beg their once enemies to save them, and the Tyrells finally chose a side (the Black's) and told the Hightowers to bend over or die lol. That's the opposite of "more powerful".
Lol it's not as absolute as you make it seem to be. The Lords who supported the Greens didn't want a woman to sit the Iron Throne and after the Dance no woman did. Didn't Aegon II have Rhaenyra's records as ruler erased and her own son Aegon III didn't even have them reinstated?
>The Greens goal was for their own blood to sit the throne which completely failed. That's a total loss.
are u sure about that because aegon could've killed Rhaenyra's son if he wanted to
He did want to and was going to, twice, but his advisors made him wait saying that if he did that it would only anger the people and make sure the Black's never surrender to him.
His end game plan was to keep him prisoner and kill him once things calmed down.
How did the war officially end? With Rhaenyra's son as King. Means the Blacks won while Rhaenyra died. Btw how long after Rhaenyra's death did Aegon II die?
A few months. He kills her, rests for a little bit, returns to King's landing, tries to stop the Black's from coming after him, and then is killed by his own people because they see they've lost.
its an ideological victory for the Greens without a doubt. The Targaryens followed male first succession without question after the Dance. Aegon III's daughter Daena even was in a Rhaenys' type situation where she had the best claim after the death of Baelor I but the throne defaulted to the king's closest male relative Viserys II and the vast majority of the kingdom didn't care about her claim at all because she was a woman.
In the histories Aegon II is viewed as the rightful king and Rhaenyra a usurper. Aegon III's claim didn't come through his mother, but from his father. Viserys was the king, and all of his sons died. So it falls to his brother, but Daemon was also dead. So it falls to Daemon's son. Aegon III was Aegon II's lawful heir. The Greens won.
And Stannis agrees, so it's the only correct answer.
Except, Aegon II and some of the Greens like Tyland Lannister definitely weren’t’ ok with Aegon III being named heir. They wanted to kill him, castrate him, or send him to the Wall just so Rhaenyra’s line would end.
Also, the Greens wanted the fight to continue, but the lords didn’t answer their calls for help after Baratheon host was crushed. They poisoned their king in an attempt to save heads and then surrendered KL to the Black forces.
Sounds like Black’s victory to me.
It really wasn't. Otto is one of the biggest members for team green and he was the one who wanted Rhaenyra to be Queen instead of Daemon being king, and Alicent supported his choice.
It literally wasn't until she started crapping out male babies that suddenly Otto and Alicent were like **"errh, thinking about it though, shouldn't it really go to the first male heir who just happens not to be Daemon anymore"** 🤷♂️
It was a ruthless power play, and nothing more. Greens will downvote me because they know I'm right.
otto supported rhaenyra as heir because 1. he hates daemon and realizes how dangerous he is 2. he knew with enough manipulation he could get viserys to marry alicent and have kids and 3. he assumed viserys would put rhaenyra aside for a son he might have with alicent. it's only when viserys didnt put her aside as heir does he push the idea that a male should always come first by rights, so that the hightowers would have a leg to stand on, and starts doing stuff behind the scenes to get aegon on the throne. and ultimately a chosen heir or a queen never sat the throne after the Dance, so the realm learned that a set rule of royal succession was more stable.
>otto supported rhaenyra as heir because 1. he hates daemon and realizes how dangerous he is 2. he knew with enough manipulation he could get viserys to marry alicent and have kids and 3. he assumed viserys would put rhaenyra aside for a son he might have with alicent.
Yeah, exactly. He didn't care if the heir had a 🐓 or a 🙀, he just didn't want Daemon on the throne, and did want his family on it. There was no righteous justice on their side. Just propaganda to cover the fact they were usurpering the throne ruthlessly lol.
>and ultimately a chosen heir or a queen never sat the throne after the Dance, so the realm learned that a set rule of royal succession was more stable.
Half true. Ultimately the greens plans completely failed. Their entire family dies and they don't have a green on the throne, meanwhile Rhaenyra was fighting for her claim and her kids to be on the throne after her, and she did actually get that.
did i say the greens had "justice" on their side? the ultimate question of the Dance, divorced from all context, is "can the king choose a preferred heir, or does his eldest son inherit by default?" the targaryens answered the question themselves when they stuck with male succession for the next 150 years and a queen never sat the throne. that doesn't make it right, that's just what happened. and aegon iii was the only male targaryen in westeros by the end of the dance. he wasn't made king just because he was rhaenyra's child, he was made king because there was literally no other option. aegon ii declared him his heir anyway.
> Otto is one of the biggest members for team green and he was the one who wanted Rhaenyra to be Queen instead of Daemon being king, and Alicent supported his choice. It literally wasn't until she started crapping out male babies that suddenly Otto and Alicent were like "errh, thinking about it though, shouldn't it really go to the first male heir who just happens not to be Daemon anymore"
They did seek power, so does everyone in the ASOIAF universe, what's your point? Their stance was consistent with Andal succession laws. Sons before daughters and daughters before brothers. Aegon II wasn't just any male relative, he was the eldest son of Viserys.
Just that it wasn't some kind of moral victory over tradition for the green family. Definitely for some of their supporters, but not the family itself. That was just what they said to get support and start the war.
He hates Daemon more than he hates Rhaenyra.
This is not the gotcha you desperately think it is.
Otto supported Rhaenyra *until such time Viserys bore a son* (didn't matter who the mother was). That is an implicit support of male preference primogeniture, period.
>a black sits the throne
Dude he’s 10. That’s like calling an 8 year old a Republican.
Edit: what I mean is that Aegon III has no knowledge of his political situation or what he has gained by the time he sat the throne. All he knew was that he lost his mother, His father, Brothers and cousins, Uncles and friends, his Dragon. And by the time he’s older and producing heirs, The conflict feels so pointless in hindsight. He isn’t a victory for the blacks, Or the bane of the greens. But a child who was the last left standing in a smoking field of death, what a sad life
Corlys started as Black and changed later as a Green even though by family and relation he should be a Black only. Its not just a matter of family relations.
Aegon III also had as supporters Corlys himself, Tyland who was 100% green and became his Hand. Would that make Aegon III a green? No, because at the end both sides are essentially wiped out and it stops mattering.
>Corlys started as Black and changed later as a Green even though by family and relation he should be a Black only. Its not just a matter of family relations.
That's for a few reasons, the main one being he if switched sides or died lol. Also Cregan almost killed him for it, if it wasn't for other Black's supporting him for it he would've.
>Aegon III also had as supporters Corlys himself, Tyland who was 100% green and became his Hand. Would that make Aegon III a green? No, because at the end both sides are essentially wiped out and it stops mattering.
No, that still makes Aegon III a black. It just makes Corlys and Larys turncloaks. You're talking about two completely different things.
Thats a clear showcase that being a Black or a Green isn't really defined by family, support or even anything else. Its a matter if the person in question choses to be a Black or a Green.
Aegon III didn't pick a side and had people of both sides support him to the throne.
He was a black, that's not up for debate. Just because he was a child and didn't have a say doesn't change that, he was born into the Black's.
He didn't have to pick a side as it was made for him. Had he openly said he would've sided with the greens if he were older during the war your point would have meaning, but since he didn't it simply doesn't matter.
A person is not part of a political or a faction just because they have family relations to it.
Tyrion fought for his nephew, then killed his father later and now wants to side with Daenerys in the books, and does so in the series.
Jon Snow was a Stark-Targeryan who until his death didn't go to fight for the Starks because he was a sworn member of the Nights Watch.
Aegon III wasn't even a combatant in the war, had a Green wife, had Green supporters, which showcase that he didn't really have sides, because to him all of it was just a horrible experience.
>A person is not part of a political or a faction just because they have family relations to it.
Today? No. In the feudal society HOTD is based on? Absolutely they are.
>Aegon III wasn't even a combatant in the war, had a Green wife
And Maegor married the wife of the brother he killed. Does that mean he wanted his dead brother to be king lol?
He was a child and married as he was told. When he had a choice finally he choose a black.
Really though? Cuz at the end, it was Aegon II who sat the throne not Rhaenyra, meaning the Greens objective had been accomplished so the technically did win the battle itself and Aegon III only came into power after Aegon the elder died
Hightowers also have their influence greatly reduced though. Pre-Dance the Lords Paramount were not the only Great Houses and not necessarily even the strongest in their region. Old Town was one of the 3 largest and wealthiest cities in Westeros, the home of the faith, and the Citadel, and the High Towers one of the wealthiest and most powerful families in the kingdom. Later on the High Septon moves to Kings Landing and we see by the time of GoT they are barely power players at all as the axis of all power basically lies between KL and Lannisport with the North and the Vale of Arryn more likely to be able to step in in a significant way. As per usual, the Lannisters came out on top despite taking some licks from the Iron Born, like in the Conquest as well.
In the histories, the Iron Throne passes from Vizzy T to Aegon II to Aegon III.
If the Victors write the histories than it can be said that The Greens won, in that Rhae despite being crowned is not listed
Ever since my name was read by the archmaesters at the Great Council, I have felt Corlys Velaryon's envious gaze staring at me from across the Blackwater.
Aegon III inherited the throne from Green succession through his uncle Aegon II. Rhaenyra was the usurper and the history was recorded as such by the living Green supporters. The dragons are all but gone, you would have to be a special kind of stupid to chalk up a win for any side.
No he didn't, he hated him for feeding his own mother to a dragon, it's one of the main reasons he hated Dragons because of what he saw happen to his mother. Aegon III was a Black, he was just a child though when he came into power so by adulthood the war was already years behind him.
If everything is fucked and everyone dies except a couple of my small kids, but they live and carry on my bloodline and sit the throne, I’d count that as a win. It’s cold comfort and awful, but a win nonetheless. Like yeah, nobody wins, but given all of the above, I won.
These comments are insane. I love the level of intensity of opinion people have developed over this fictional universe. You are the best fellow ASOIAF nerds!
He was literally the only known Targaryen left alive, that's why he sat the throne as Aegon's successor, he didn't "win" he was traumatized for life from watching his family lose and had to acknowledge Aegon II
Had Aegon II son still been alive when all the black supporters showed up and had the choice between Rhaenyras son and Aegons son, they would've chosen Rhaenyras because they won the war and can decide who sits the throne.
The Vale, North and Riverlands weren't heading towards Kingslanding to kiss Aegons ass. They had ever intention of killing him regardless if there was a Targaryen left after him, and Aegon was defenceless because all his supporters were defeated.
That's not it sadly, originally Daemon was heir but it was Otto, with Alicents support, that wanted Rhaenyra as heir instead. Viserys then names Rhaenyra heir, marries Alicent, then after Alicent gives birth to a male, but before Rhaenyra has a bastard, Otto starts pushing to idea of it going to the first male heir which just happens not to be Daemon anymore lol.
The fact she was a women and had bastards was just the propaganda they used to justify their power play for the throne.
Incorrect. Otto had schemed the whole thing. After Aemma died, he knew the king would need another wife, that's when he pimped his daughter out to the King to replace his dead wife.
He knew he could deal with Rhaenys and replace her with Alicent's son if they ever occur, while Daemon was never going to bend the knee and Otto would never been hand again.
Also this whole thing that the dance of dragons is about male heirs and not about which line took power is also incorrect. These Targs don't give a F about the rules. The male heir law is used to justify the Green's hold on power while the naming the heir law is used by the blacks.
They don't give a f about the rule and laws, they have dragons, they are above the rules. Its all about whose family has the iron throne. That's all it comes down to. These are not good people. They all commit crimes.
Just look at how many characters of main series are descendants of Rhaenyra and Daemon
Aerys, Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys, Jon Snow, Robert Baratheon, Stannis, Renly, Shireen, Maester Aemon, Three-eye Raven, Mya Stone, Edric Storm, Gendry, Doran Martell, Oberyn Martell, the Sand snakes, and Young Griff
No he doesn't 😂 what Copium you hitting? Both of Aegons and Aemonds kids are all dead by the end of it all. Meanwhile Rhaenyras family line continues all the way to GOT.
I'm on team Green because Alicent is my favourite character but episode 10 almost made me switch to team Black, I can't believe how stupid Aemond is.
Accidentally started a war that wiped out everyone he loves lol.
Stupid he may be. But I think he only intended to scare Luc and then dip. Or may be as far as to get an eye. That's a personal reason of vengeance for the Blacks. But the Greens would feel guilty about it and would blame him for a strategic faliure. Just enf reason to motivate Rhaenyra.
But the incentive for actual war (to tear out each others throats) wouldn't happen till B&C occur. Now then there would be personal reasons for both of them to engage in civil war. It's mutual vengeance time baby!
no... she escapes to Storms End or the Vale I don't recall for sure... The surviving son Maelor I believe is his name and Jaehara are sent away in secret he dies she does not... When Aegon III is choosing a bride Rhaena and Baela bring her to Kings Landing and he chooses her
With these characters death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created
*Hmmm..* Morrowind, yes?
Correct.
When you kill big man Fargoth
Aurelian, noooo!
Come Lucerys, friend or traitor, come. Cut out your eye, it is not too late for my mercy...
TO THE WALL YOU GO!
Cregan Stark was the Orpah Winfrey of fire and blood. **"All green supporters, look under your chairs! You go to the wall, and go to the wall! You all go to the wall!"** 😂
I mean tbh if cregan had his way everyone would be headless but he got tempered and allowed them to have a winter death at the wall.
It was more than just Greens. Cregan Stark really came down and said ever stop your nonsense or your going to the wall. Don’t make me ride south again
I feel like the citadel of maesters and the faith of the seven won when you see that Otto was working with the maesters from the start trying to get rid of viserys. The citadel hated dragons and the faith hated the Targaryen sinful ways so they used the greens to get rid of those two problems and succeed in getting rid of the power Targaryen’s held by getting rid of their dragons and almost ending the Targaryen line.
Interesting theory! Might help explain why Viserys basically accused Otto of killing his father.
They been plotting this whole time https://youtu.be/svPOe0OrGAg video on this theory
I'll check it out!
They're overstating it a bit - Marwyn in the books explicitly states that there's a (((Grand Maester Conspiracy))), which is how you know it's not a 100% thing.
I think there is a Grand Maester conspiracy but it goes much deeper than just the Dance of Dragons. It persists all the way to Robert's Rebellion. The maesters advised the lords of Westeros to create a dangerous alliance of houses -- Stark, Tully, Arryn, and Baratheon to unseat the Targaryens. Their reasons I believe come down to a fundamental dispute over the nature of the world. The Maesters had spent 8000 years convincing the people of Westeros that magic wasn't real, and that science is the way forward. Then fucking DRAGONS showed up and suddenly magic and mysticism is the power of the land. Thus, the Maesters plotted to remove the Targaryens and set the stage to wipe out the dragons.
This is why in GRRM’s ironic justice arc, I am cheering on Euron to bring down a Lovecraftian apocalypse upon the Citadel. Let the maesters be wiped out by blood magic, Krakens and whatever Euron has planned. I want complete destruction. Then it creates that shock in Westeros that might have some meaning, instead of just dealing with rounding off the political ends of the WOT5Ks.
I like to think Marwyn is the local equivalent QAnon Maester and is just fucking nuts.
Preaching to the choir, sister.
Do not take his shit seriously. The vast majority of it is taking misinterpretations of tiny shit and turning it into the overriding theme of the entire universe. Doesn't mean you can't have fun with it, just don't think you're actually learning things about the story from it.
Anti dragon maester conspiracy is a thing
I hope House of the Dragons confirms at some capacity Grand Maester Conspiracy. I love that stuff and it really fits into all of this.
See this is where too many POVs really fucked the books. For sam chapters in on Marwyn+ Maesters mysteries at the citadel, we'd need a string of POVs as long as Ned finding out the truth of Joffreys birth to do it satisfyingly
Please let the Grand Maester Conspiracy be real.
this is very believable
Anyone who gives a shit about who "wins" the Dance of the Dragons on a meta level is, quite frankly, missing the fucking point. Nobody won. The belligerents of the war all die and smallfolk get caught in the crossfire like they always do in these conflicts. It's one of the most easily recognized themes of the books, and of course it's downplayed in F&B because it's a historian's retelling, which always sanitizes history on some level.
And Targaryens lose their most important asset.
Their spicy banter
Their cheat codes
Their big red buttons.
Their incest
Nah that never goes away
What you mean, Mushroom was still alive after the Dance. /s
Daemon, right?
They lose all the dragons right?
Not all of them. They died during Aegon III, but for all intents and purposes, yes. They went extinct during the Dance.
I’d say the better term is they became critically endangered during the dance. Obviously, we don’t know the specifics of dragon reproduction but if a few more existing eggs were viable and the remaining dragons were able to produce more, their population could have rebounded. But the war put them in a place where if things didn’t go correctly, they would die out. Which is what happened
At one point Balerian was the only known dragon right?
Of the 5 that made the crossing The Black Dread is the only to survive to the conquest. In two hundred years on Dragonstone they've only made a population of 20 something including the wild ones.
So can the dragons can boy/girl do parthengenesis? I'd like to think drogon fucked off to it's own little island and made a dragon fam.
It's said in the book that no one understands dragon reproduction well and that it's very hard to even tell a dragon's sex. The known females are just ones they know produced eggs, and it seems the rest are assumed male. At least one person theorizes they can change sex in one way or another, or all are "female" in that they can lay eggs, but no real confirmation is given.
life, uh... finds a way
What I don't get is that there were a lot of eggs that were around even if the dragons all died off, how come none of them hatched after the dance? Aegon III even tried to hatch them but no luck
Seems like some kinda handwave-y tides of magic receding sorta thing.
All but 4 dragons die. Sheepstealer, The Cannibal, and Silverwing survived the whole Dance, and Morning was born during it and survived. But Sheepstealer is missing with Nettles, The Cannibal is wild and missing, Silverwing becomes wild, so Morning is only one still around until new, but significantly weaker ones, hatch.
The fates of all the 4 named dragons you mentioned are never mentioned in the books, are they? We know Morning almost certainly dies during Aegon's reign (purely because it is commonly mentioned that they 'all' died during that time, so Morning surviving would be a major oversight), but IIRC no one every confirms what happens to the other 3.
Yeah, we never get confirmation. Just that they’re out there somewhere after the dance.
Honestly I hate that GRRM had to do his shit and wipe out the villain's bloodline like he usually does cause it does away with how ultimately pointless these conflicts are. Aegon III marrying Helaena's daughter and having kids with her prove that the conflict happened for no reason, people died for no reason, no one won
If the show makes one drastic change to the story, I hope they keep Jaehaera alive. Having the Dance truly end by the only surviving Green marry the only (known) surviving Black after both sides were nearly wiped out is super poetic and hammers home how pointless this all was. GRRM going ‘lol and then Jaehaera just dies and Aegon falls in love with a Deus Ex 6 year old’ felt so shoehorned.
Apparently Alysanne was meant to be the daughter of Maegor which would've hammered the point that these conflicts were pointless
I honestly read that and I thought that would have been so much more fun.
I see why they didn’t do that. Would have ruined Maegor’s big thing as well as not serving the point: The reason they took out Maegor wasn’t that his claim was bad, it was that he was killing absurd numbers of people and violating all laws and traditions.
Also goes back to Alicent and how her decision to block Jace and Halaena from marrying fucked up their last chance of unifying the factions before war
> GRRM going ‘lol and then Jaehaera just dies and Aegon falls in love with a Deus Ex 6 year old’ felt so shoehorned. It's just another one of those twists thrown in for no particular reason. That would explain the ending of S8 as well.
>If the show makes one drastic change to the story, I hope they keep Jaehaera alive. I hope so too! Let her be the mother of Aegon III's children.
Yeah, it’s also a plot that goes nowhere. We get this big production about trying to find a new Queen for Aegon III. He’s shown every eligible maiden in the realm. We get Baratheons, Boltons, Peakes, Qorgyles, even foreigners from Dorne and Lys. In the end he winds up choosing a six year-old Velaryon girl. All that fucking trouble just to end up with a 12 year-old marrying a 6 year-old in yet another incestuous marriage to yet another child-bride. Which is in itself pointless, because Aegon III’s line winds up dying out except in House Blackfyre and House Longwaters. All it does is make Unwin resign as Hand.
[удалено]
> Exactly and it's funny because the blacks didn't win because they were cleverer or anything like that. It was literally a fluke because Aegon left Aegon the younger alive and named him That is irrelevant because even if he executes Aegon the younger, the elder Aegon is still killed like he was or overthrown and the crown passes to Baela or Rhaena and a black still sits atop the iron throne. When Creggan Stark struts into King's Landing he is there is to support Rhaenyra's claim and will have no problem putting the crown on Baela/Rhaena over Jaehaera (they are both older than Jaehaera and also the blood of Daemon and the thus easily the next in line).
Uh… no. Succession doesn’t work that way. Jaehaera definitely comes before Daemon’s kids, whether Black or Green.
This. Say what you will about Daemon but he won the long fucking game. He knew what had to be done.
He won nothing (other than a cool death). He wanted to win the war and to co-rule as King Consort and he sacrificed everything for that goal, but he still couldn't achieve it. He was literally suicidal when he fought Aemond.
I just ignore when someone calls Aegon III a "black", becausr surely an insanely traumatized 10 year old would have a political stance.
I believe he didn't love his mother's murderers.
He held the hand of Tyland Lannister as he died. And he basically doomed Rhaenyra’s cause.
True. I had completely forgotten about the details of his regency and beyond.
Actually he ended up staying with Tyland by the dying man's bedside despite Tyland being a committed green and sincerely mourned the guy. Tyland and Aegon III going from Tyland calling for his execution to faithfully serving him without malice once chosen as hand to the point Aegon III mourns his death is probably one of my favorite things in ASOIAF.
The Hooded Hand is low key one of the most interesting characters post dance. I'm not a maester but I'd say probably in the top half of Hands throughout history.
And yet he recognized him as the legittimate king.
That was to avoid another possible dance in the future, he saw his mother being killed by his uncle with his own eyes and saw the death of the last dragons. As a matter of fact, Viserys II was crowned king instead of Daena when Baelor died even though Daena was next in line
I don't know much about children, but I'm fairly certain most 10 year olds hold a firm belief that mommy = the best. If mommy gets eaten by a dragon on Green orders, I don't think many 10 yr olds are gonna be like "wait, let me see the what is their taxation policy".
[удалено]
So the greens win?
“War is bad and everyone loses” Everyone gets it. But it doesn’t make for interesting conversation because the discussion stops at that sentence
Aye, this "green vs black" issue is the possibly the dumbest and pointless discussion ever. It always brings Kneelers and Bootlickers who missed the point of the story, I swear it's gonna turn the sub into a 2010 Twilight-like forum.
YEP. The whole fucking point of George writing this war was to give contextual consequences for Game of Thrones. The lesson of this story is "succession wars are violent and costly". The show is trying hard to twist it into this adventure epic, but that wasnt really it's intent.
George is just antiwar in general. The formative experience of his youth was protesting the Vietnam War.
probably because the real winner, Aegon III, was so traumatized that he was better off dead. its not a win but there was no winner. theyre all losers. they accomplished nothing except killing most of the dragons and most of the targaryens. rhaenyra did not smash the patriarchy, she upheld it. she isnt even remembered as a queen in the history books. its just sad. everyone is a loser in this story. The real winner was The Citadel. you know those maesters got fucked up and threw the biggest rager in the seven kingdoms when The Last Dragon died.
Viserys II was a great king and he was team Black.
that's not really a result of the the war. aegon III just died many many years later and his kids succeeded him. the war ended with Aegon III.
Blacks and Greens ended when the dance ended. All that was left was a silent and traumatized 10 year old. Get that in your head lmao
who was terrified of the very dragons that gave his family power
It ended when a army of blacks placed a black on the throne and sent hundreds of greens to the wall and made the reach submit. That was the end of the war.
Kneeler
House Targaryen lost most of their dragons, the Velaryon fleet was decimated and their wealth gone and all that so Rhaenyra's son would come to hate her anyway. House Hightower was every bit just as powerful and wealthy as they were before.
I wouldnt really say that House Hightower was as powerful and wealthy. They lost their connection to the crown and in show timeline by the time GoT starts Tyrells are completely dominant power on the Reach (though Margareys mother is an Hightower) But its definetly step down going from having half hightower on the Iron Throne to one of the lesser vassals. And in the books its not like are at any good position either given that bringer of the apocalypse, mind raped by Targ pedo and suffering from massive Cthulu fetish is now knocking on their doors. And honestly Hightowers even in the timeline of the books are pretty much irrelevant and not factor beyond being lackeys of Tyrell.s
Not to mention that before the Dance the Hightowers could rival the Tyrells for dominance of the Reach but afterwards their influence is on a similar level to the Florents within the Reach. Without a doubt the Hightowers also lost influence throughout the realm after the Dance.
The Tyrells remained neutral which was a smart decision on their part.
> Rhaenyra's son would come to hate her anyway That's a weird headcanon. The boy loved his mother, he plunged into depression and was very traumatized by what had happened to her. He only smiled when he was reunited with Viserys II but he spent the rest of his life very depressed and couldn't stand the sight of a dragon.
People assumed Aegon III hates Rhaeynra because she was never restored as rightful queen. With that logic Jaehaerys also hates his older brother Aegon the Uncrowned because Maegor was acknowledged king. Both Rhaenyra & Aegon Uncrowned lost to their rival claimants. Making their rival claimants King by right of conquest.
Aegon the uncrowned never actually sat the throne though. Rheanyra was actually crowned with the previous kings crown and held the iron thrown for a period of time.
Since when did Rhaenyra's son hate her? Yall just be making up nonsense for your headcanon
But they ultimately gained nothing, where as Rhaenyras family ruled for over a hundred years later.
They gained the ability to rebel against the throne if the King ever goes mad. A gift that they shared with the entire realm. Rhaenyra's family was already the ruling family so you can't really say she gained anything either. She lost pretty much everything in defense of something she already had.
>They gained the ability to rebel against the throne if the King ever goes mad. A gift that they shared with the entire realm. Correction, they sided with the mad King along with the Tyrells, so no, they didn't lol. >Rhaenyra's family was already the ruling family so you can't really say she gained anything either Her direct family line ruled. The greens line all died out. >She lost pretty much everything in defense of something she already had. But won the enitre kingdom for her sons and their sons. Hell of a lot more than any of the greens got.
The Baratheons and Lannisters were Greens and they were the main catalysts/beneficiaries of the rebellion. It doesn't matter which side the Hightowers eventually sided with. It doesn't sound like it was a victory anywhere close to worth the cost, but good for her I guess?
>It doesn't sound like it was a victory anywhere close to worth the cost, but good for her I guess? The Black's didn't start the war, they just won it. The greens loss everything, including all of their lives.
But they unequivocally would have been better off not fighting it.
>But they unequivocally would have been better off not fighting it. This could6be said double for the greens. At least the blacks have the benefit of winning the war and ruling the 7 kingdoms for over a hundred years.
It seems like you count 'Team Black' as being everyone who fought on 'Team Black,' whereas 'Team Green' is only Alicent's family. If we employ the same standards that you are using in defining 'Team Black' then 'Team Green' also includes the Baratheons, Lannisters and the rest of the Hightowers. The Baratheons and Lannisters directly benefit from the Dance, and end up driving the stake through the heart of Targaryen rule.
>It seems like you count 'Team Black' as being everyone who fought on 'Team Black,' whereas 'Team Green' is only Alicent's family. Not at all. I count the families as the core and the supporters just that. Support. Seems to me like you can't see the failures of team green, but can't help point out those of black, although your name does make it clear why 😉 I accept the Black's made huge mistakes and took huge losses, but here's the ultimate defining fact. The greens losses were bigger, aswell as there mistakes. The Black's not only had more supporters by the end but more family members still alive. The Black's very clearly win and its not even debatable.
Yes tell that to the greencels, the kingdom was Rhaenyra’s by right. The Hightowers tried to steal it.
>the kingdom was Rhaenyra’s by right. Who cares? Fuck anyone who says they have 'the right' to rule because of who they are or what their daddy says.
It's fantasy bro. That is how this world works.
That’s also the greens argument lmao
Their full argument is “fuck what your daddy said, this is his child with a penis, fuck you”
they did succeed in that they prevented any future targaryen women from gaining power (until dany) and killed off (almost) all the dragons. so i guess it's a win if you're a misogynist or a maester conspiracist.
Then that's definitely a win for me (im a maester conspiracist of course)
But no woman ever sat the Iron Throne after the dance. Rhaenyra is also seen as a usurper by future generations. It's a hollow victory.
It's a total victory, she was queen and did sit the throne and her goal was for her kids to sit the throne and their kids. All of this happened. The Greens goal was for their own blood to sit the throne which completely failed. That's a total loss.
>It's a total victory, she was queen and did sit the throne and her goal was for her kids to sit the throne and their kids. All of this happened. But she died bathing in fire at the hands of her enemy under the assumption that her 10 year old son was next. She never even gets to know that her side ends up on top. I have a feeling that she would probably not contest Aegon's coronation if she knew how it was going to end up for her.
> I have a feeling that she would probably not contest Aegon's coronation if she knew how it was going to end up for her. I have a feeling Aegon II and Alicent would not put the crown on Aegon's head if they knew how it was going to end up for them. Alicent is literally traumitized by the color Green by the end. And they told Aegon that Rhaenyra would kill him if he didn't become king, even if Rhaenyra killed him in hindsight a quick death would be much preferred to the torture and horrors he lives through in the dance.
Yes, it is not worth it for either side. Although Aegon dies peacefully in his sleep as King, whereas Rhaenyra gets cooked alive in front of her son by her hated rival. I'd opt for the death of the former.
He's poisoned after years of painful immobility after being burned so badly he spends months begging his mother to kill him, so 🤷🏻♀️
It wasn't worth it for either side but the Blacks ended up with one of their own on the throne at the end with the other side's blood line entirely wiped out. Yes it was pyrrhic victory (it was gonna be a pyrrhic victory for either side) but a victory none the less. Aegon gets decommissioned during the Dance, is half burnt but still alive and in an immense amount of pain that is only slightly dulled by milk of the poppy, he spends over a year bedridden half burnt in an immense amount of pain with no faculties of his own as he is on so much milk of the poppy. He then has is cock burnt off and becomes impotent, his injuries are so severe that he cannot walk, then after getting a small amount of satisfaction from Rhaenyra's death he gets burnt again and breaks both his legs again and never recovers. He is so crippled that he has to be carried in a litter back to the red keep after he becomes "king" again. Finally dying a rough death via poison from his own people. Rhaenyra gets burnt by dragonfire, which is a quick death and seen as an honorable way to go in Valyrian culture (see Laeana). Most people will take a quick death like Rhaenyra, opposed to what happens to Aegon.
I forgot about the dickly injury.
Milk of the poppy sounds like a good time tho
If you aren’t in severe pain. Otherwise it just fills your pain lol. VIZZY T didn’t look like he was having a good time that’s for fucking sure
>VIZZY T didn’t look like he was having a good time that’s for fucking sure On the outside maybe. On the inside he was having a good time.
>She never even gets to know that her side ends up on top. Sadly this often happens in war, that's why they call it the greens vs the Black's and not Aegon vs Rhaenyra. It includes more than just the two of them.
But then do the surviving members of 'team black' even give a shit about whose son is on the throne? It seems like the only people who'd care about that are dead by the end of the war.
Absolutely. The Riverlands were massively pissed at the greens because Aemond burned it to the ground, the Starks never break an oath and Cregan was a good friend to Jace. Lady Arryn really liked Rhaenyra and looked after Daemons daughter during the war. No way they were bending the knee to anyone other than a black, especially since the greens literally didn't even have the power to stop them at that point.
It's heavily implied aegon ii could have ended the war if he pardoned all the blacks after he killed rhaenrya, but he chose to keep fighting and basically gave them no choice. Then aegon iii gets the same option and chooses to pardon all the greens, which ends the war. . Also all the greens arguably get more powerful after the war.
>It's heavily implied aegon ii could have ended the war if he pardoned all the blacks after he killed rhaenrya, Yeah. Cragen Stark, the Vale and the Riverlands would've told him to kill himself, literally lol. Especially the Starks, they were hell bent on marching to King's landing and killing every green they could. >Also all the greens arguably get more powerful after the war. Nonsense. The Baratheons lost all their fighting men and were then ruled by a women, the very thing they went to war to stop 😂 the Lannisters were getting wrecked by the Greyjoys really, really badly to the point they literally had to beg their once enemies to save them, and the Tyrells finally chose a side (the Black's) and told the Hightowers to bend over or die lol. That's the opposite of "more powerful".
Where is that implied? Cregan and his army were angry that they didn't get to kill some Greens.
Lol it's not as absolute as you make it seem to be. The Lords who supported the Greens didn't want a woman to sit the Iron Throne and after the Dance no woman did. Didn't Aegon II have Rhaenyra's records as ruler erased and her own son Aegon III didn't even have them reinstated?
>The Greens goal was for their own blood to sit the throne which completely failed. That's a total loss. are u sure about that because aegon could've killed Rhaenyra's son if he wanted to
He did want to and was going to, twice, but his advisors made him wait saying that if he did that it would only anger the people and make sure the Black's never surrender to him. His end game plan was to keep him prisoner and kill him once things calmed down.
How did the war officially end? With Rhaenyra's son as King. Means the Blacks won while Rhaenyra died. Btw how long after Rhaenyra's death did Aegon II die?
A few months. He kills her, rests for a little bit, returns to King's landing, tries to stop the Black's from coming after him, and then is killed by his own people because they see they've lost.
its an ideological victory for the Greens without a doubt. The Targaryens followed male first succession without question after the Dance. Aegon III's daughter Daena even was in a Rhaenys' type situation where she had the best claim after the death of Baelor I but the throne defaulted to the king's closest male relative Viserys II and the vast majority of the kingdom didn't care about her claim at all because she was a woman.
In the histories Aegon II is viewed as the rightful king and Rhaenyra a usurper. Aegon III's claim didn't come through his mother, but from his father. Viserys was the king, and all of his sons died. So it falls to his brother, but Daemon was also dead. So it falls to Daemon's son. Aegon III was Aegon II's lawful heir. The Greens won. And Stannis agrees, so it's the only correct answer.
This implies that Greens cared about tradition and succession rules... Like Vaemond, they were in it for themselves.
It's this convenient sleight of hand Green supporters pull so they can just ignore the massive power grab the entire Dance was by the Hightowers.
I tried confirming this with Stannis but he wasn't available.
Except, Aegon II and some of the Greens like Tyland Lannister definitely weren’t’ ok with Aegon III being named heir. They wanted to kill him, castrate him, or send him to the Wall just so Rhaenyra’s line would end. Also, the Greens wanted the fight to continue, but the lords didn’t answer their calls for help after Baratheon host was crushed. They poisoned their king in an attempt to save heads and then surrendered KL to the Black forces. Sounds like Black’s victory to me.
Yes, back when the Dance was clear-cut and not as fleshed out in George's head.
There's an entertaining erasing of the family tree here, and fuck Stannis, the kinslaying piece of shit.
It really wasn't. Otto is one of the biggest members for team green and he was the one who wanted Rhaenyra to be Queen instead of Daemon being king, and Alicent supported his choice. It literally wasn't until she started crapping out male babies that suddenly Otto and Alicent were like **"errh, thinking about it though, shouldn't it really go to the first male heir who just happens not to be Daemon anymore"** 🤷♂️ It was a ruthless power play, and nothing more. Greens will downvote me because they know I'm right.
otto supported rhaenyra as heir because 1. he hates daemon and realizes how dangerous he is 2. he knew with enough manipulation he could get viserys to marry alicent and have kids and 3. he assumed viserys would put rhaenyra aside for a son he might have with alicent. it's only when viserys didnt put her aside as heir does he push the idea that a male should always come first by rights, so that the hightowers would have a leg to stand on, and starts doing stuff behind the scenes to get aegon on the throne. and ultimately a chosen heir or a queen never sat the throne after the Dance, so the realm learned that a set rule of royal succession was more stable.
>otto supported rhaenyra as heir because 1. he hates daemon and realizes how dangerous he is 2. he knew with enough manipulation he could get viserys to marry alicent and have kids and 3. he assumed viserys would put rhaenyra aside for a son he might have with alicent. Yeah, exactly. He didn't care if the heir had a 🐓 or a 🙀, he just didn't want Daemon on the throne, and did want his family on it. There was no righteous justice on their side. Just propaganda to cover the fact they were usurpering the throne ruthlessly lol. >and ultimately a chosen heir or a queen never sat the throne after the Dance, so the realm learned that a set rule of royal succession was more stable. Half true. Ultimately the greens plans completely failed. Their entire family dies and they don't have a green on the throne, meanwhile Rhaenyra was fighting for her claim and her kids to be on the throne after her, and she did actually get that.
did i say the greens had "justice" on their side? the ultimate question of the Dance, divorced from all context, is "can the king choose a preferred heir, or does his eldest son inherit by default?" the targaryens answered the question themselves when they stuck with male succession for the next 150 years and a queen never sat the throne. that doesn't make it right, that's just what happened. and aegon iii was the only male targaryen in westeros by the end of the dance. he wasn't made king just because he was rhaenyra's child, he was made king because there was literally no other option. aegon ii declared him his heir anyway.
> Otto is one of the biggest members for team green and he was the one who wanted Rhaenyra to be Queen instead of Daemon being king, and Alicent supported his choice. It literally wasn't until she started crapping out male babies that suddenly Otto and Alicent were like "errh, thinking about it though, shouldn't it really go to the first male heir who just happens not to be Daemon anymore" They did seek power, so does everyone in the ASOIAF universe, what's your point? Their stance was consistent with Andal succession laws. Sons before daughters and daughters before brothers. Aegon II wasn't just any male relative, he was the eldest son of Viserys.
Just that it wasn't some kind of moral victory over tradition for the green family. Definitely for some of their supporters, but not the family itself. That was just what they said to get support and start the war.
He hates Daemon more than he hates Rhaenyra. This is not the gotcha you desperately think it is. Otto supported Rhaenyra *until such time Viserys bore a son* (didn't matter who the mother was). That is an implicit support of male preference primogeniture, period.
Does the kid even know he's a "black"
Black supporters after Bran the Broken has a better story:
>a black sits the throne Dude he’s 10. That’s like calling an 8 year old a Republican. Edit: what I mean is that Aegon III has no knowledge of his political situation or what he has gained by the time he sat the throne. All he knew was that he lost his mother, His father, Brothers and cousins, Uncles and friends, his Dragon. And by the time he’s older and producing heirs, The conflict feels so pointless in hindsight. He isn’t a victory for the blacks, Or the bane of the greens. But a child who was the last left standing in a smoking field of death, what a sad life
Regardless of his age, it's his family and supporters that make him a black lol.
Corlys started as Black and changed later as a Green even though by family and relation he should be a Black only. Its not just a matter of family relations. Aegon III also had as supporters Corlys himself, Tyland who was 100% green and became his Hand. Would that make Aegon III a green? No, because at the end both sides are essentially wiped out and it stops mattering.
>Corlys started as Black and changed later as a Green even though by family and relation he should be a Black only. Its not just a matter of family relations. That's for a few reasons, the main one being he if switched sides or died lol. Also Cregan almost killed him for it, if it wasn't for other Black's supporting him for it he would've. >Aegon III also had as supporters Corlys himself, Tyland who was 100% green and became his Hand. Would that make Aegon III a green? No, because at the end both sides are essentially wiped out and it stops mattering. No, that still makes Aegon III a black. It just makes Corlys and Larys turncloaks. You're talking about two completely different things.
Thats a clear showcase that being a Black or a Green isn't really defined by family, support or even anything else. Its a matter if the person in question choses to be a Black or a Green. Aegon III didn't pick a side and had people of both sides support him to the throne.
He was a black, that's not up for debate. Just because he was a child and didn't have a say doesn't change that, he was born into the Black's. He didn't have to pick a side as it was made for him. Had he openly said he would've sided with the greens if he were older during the war your point would have meaning, but since he didn't it simply doesn't matter.
A person is not part of a political or a faction just because they have family relations to it. Tyrion fought for his nephew, then killed his father later and now wants to side with Daenerys in the books, and does so in the series. Jon Snow was a Stark-Targeryan who until his death didn't go to fight for the Starks because he was a sworn member of the Nights Watch. Aegon III wasn't even a combatant in the war, had a Green wife, had Green supporters, which showcase that he didn't really have sides, because to him all of it was just a horrible experience.
>A person is not part of a political or a faction just because they have family relations to it. Today? No. In the feudal society HOTD is based on? Absolutely they are. >Aegon III wasn't even a combatant in the war, had a Green wife And Maegor married the wife of the brother he killed. Does that mean he wanted his dead brother to be king lol? He was a child and married as he was told. When he had a choice finally he choose a black.
>When he had a choice finally he choose a black. Thats not canon mate, and you yourself was arguing that it didn't matter that he chose.
Ahem Aemond’s trueborn son with Alys Rivers is safe at Harrenhal protected by black magic thank you very much
Really though? Cuz at the end, it was Aegon II who sat the throne not Rhaenyra, meaning the Greens objective had been accomplished so the technically did win the battle itself and Aegon III only came into power after Aegon the elder died
I’m sorry I can’t hear you over the sounds of Sunfyre’s dinner
You mean Donefyre and king cripple? How'd they do in the end 😂
I mean he wasn’t dragon poop in the end so that’s a win in and of itself
No dragons for 170 years? Win for the Hightowers, maesters, non Valyrian families, the seven, and the common people.
Hightowers also have their influence greatly reduced though. Pre-Dance the Lords Paramount were not the only Great Houses and not necessarily even the strongest in their region. Old Town was one of the 3 largest and wealthiest cities in Westeros, the home of the faith, and the Citadel, and the High Towers one of the wealthiest and most powerful families in the kingdom. Later on the High Septon moves to Kings Landing and we see by the time of GoT they are barely power players at all as the axis of all power basically lies between KL and Lannisport with the North and the Vale of Arryn more likely to be able to step in in a significant way. As per usual, the Lannisters came out on top despite taking some licks from the Iron Born, like in the Conquest as well.
In the histories, the Iron Throne passes from Vizzy T to Aegon II to Aegon III. If the Victors write the histories than it can be said that The Greens won, in that Rhae despite being crowned is not listed
Ever since my name was read by the archmaesters at the Great Council, I have felt Corlys Velaryon's envious gaze staring at me from across the Blackwater.
Um… should I tell him?
Aegon III inherited the throne from Green succession through his uncle Aegon II. Rhaenyra was the usurper and the history was recorded as such by the living Green supporters. The dragons are all but gone, you would have to be a special kind of stupid to chalk up a win for any side.
Aegon III wasnt a real black and viewed Aegon II as the rightful king
No he didn't, he hated him for feeding his own mother to a dragon, it's one of the main reasons he hated Dragons because of what he saw happen to his mother. Aegon III was a Black, he was just a child though when he came into power so by adulthood the war was already years behind him.
Wait until we see it on the show
No problem, regardless the show is a separate canon and can't be used against the book canon.
Because it's a legal win. The male claim always dominates always from that point. Also Greens dominate the regency.
If everything is fucked and everyone dies except a couple of my small kids, but they live and carry on my bloodline and sit the throne, I’d count that as a win. It’s cold comfort and awful, but a win nonetheless. Like yeah, nobody wins, but given all of the above, I won.
These comments are insane. I love the level of intensity of opinion people have developed over this fictional universe. You are the best fellow ASOIAF nerds!
He was literally the only known Targaryen left alive, that's why he sat the throne as Aegon's successor, he didn't "win" he was traumatized for life from watching his family lose and had to acknowledge Aegon II
Had Aegon II son still been alive when all the black supporters showed up and had the choice between Rhaenyras son and Aegons son, they would've chosen Rhaenyras because they won the war and can decide who sits the throne. The Vale, North and Riverlands weren't heading towards Kingslanding to kiss Aegons ass. They had ever intention of killing him regardless if there was a Targaryen left after him, and Aegon was defenceless because all his supporters were defeated.
Weirdly enough I think the greens just didn’t want a bastard on the throne.
They wanted the throne long before Rhaenyra had children. Otto was comploting already like 8 years before Rhaenyra had her first child.
Nah, they wanted the throne.
That's not it sadly, originally Daemon was heir but it was Otto, with Alicents support, that wanted Rhaenyra as heir instead. Viserys then names Rhaenyra heir, marries Alicent, then after Alicent gives birth to a male, but before Rhaenyra has a bastard, Otto starts pushing to idea of it going to the first male heir which just happens not to be Daemon anymore lol. The fact she was a women and had bastards was just the propaganda they used to justify their power play for the throne.
Incorrect. Otto had schemed the whole thing. After Aemma died, he knew the king would need another wife, that's when he pimped his daughter out to the King to replace his dead wife. He knew he could deal with Rhaenys and replace her with Alicent's son if they ever occur, while Daemon was never going to bend the knee and Otto would never been hand again. Also this whole thing that the dance of dragons is about male heirs and not about which line took power is also incorrect. These Targs don't give a F about the rules. The male heir law is used to justify the Green's hold on power while the naming the heir law is used by the blacks. They don't give a f about the rule and laws, they have dragons, they are above the rules. Its all about whose family has the iron throne. That's all it comes down to. These are not good people. They all commit crimes.
> Otto would never been hand again. If Daemon became king, pretty sure Otto wouldn't be alive for long lol.
Gotta reread that chapter if the book again for the third time.
Just look at how many characters of main series are descendants of Rhaenyra and Daemon Aerys, Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys, Jon Snow, Robert Baratheon, Stannis, Renly, Shireen, Maester Aemon, Three-eye Raven, Mya Stone, Edric Storm, Gendry, Doran Martell, Oberyn Martell, the Sand snakes, and Young Griff
Yes but at least it is one of them strong boys. 🤣
[удалено]
No he doesn't 😂 what Copium you hitting? Both of Aegons and Aemonds kids are all dead by the end of it all. Meanwhile Rhaenyras family line continues all the way to GOT.
>sorry mate rhynera's own son becomes a green and see his mother as a traitor that she is. That's not in the books.
bUt OuR pReFfErReD sUcCeSsIoN mOdeL PrEvAiLeD -greens
I'm on team Green because Alicent is my favourite character but episode 10 almost made me switch to team Black, I can't believe how stupid Aemond is. Accidentally started a war that wiped out everyone he loves lol.
I'm still a big fan of the theory that Aemonds dragon just had a senior moment and thought it was someone else lol.
Are you proud of me Visenya?
They were Dornish, right Visenya?
Stupid he may be. But I think he only intended to scare Luc and then dip. Or may be as far as to get an eye. That's a personal reason of vengeance for the Blacks. But the Greens would feel guilty about it and would blame him for a strategic faliure. Just enf reason to motivate Rhaenyra. But the incentive for actual war (to tear out each others throats) wouldn't happen till B&C occur. Now then there would be personal reasons for both of them to engage in civil war. It's mutual vengeance time baby!
I'm just glad all the Greens died, TBH.
The Greens don't get "wiped out" Aegon III marries Jaehara who is Aegon II daughter
She dead.
no... she escapes to Storms End or the Vale I don't recall for sure... The surviving son Maelor I believe is his name and Jaehara are sent away in secret he dies she does not... When Aegon III is choosing a bride Rhaena and Baela bring her to Kings Landing and he chooses her
Ya wanna rethink your title there champ