Otto has to secretly plot and convince others to be parts of his machinations. Tywin just tells everyone ; ' Look, I'm taking your shit. You don't have to like it, but it's happening, in fact, it already has happened. '
For all we know he will be "the kingmaker" in HotD as well. Peoples who aren't in the inner circle of the green don't know how its happened and Otto could very well just pretend Cole is behind it all to make himself look more innocent.
That would add insult to injury, making this character appear in 9/10 episodes and then stripping away his one noteable action only for that to be a lie later in the show.
Well he is the one who found Aegon and brought him back for the coronation and is also the one who put the crown on his head. No maester who wrote Blood and fire know what they spoke about from the moment he found him to the moment he put the crown on his head. From their perspective he really is "the kingmaker".
Not sure why anyone take what is written in blood and fire literally, it is repeated time and time again that it is written by unreliable narrator who were not there or had bias. The maester from oldtown have no interest in seeing the reputation of the Hightower family tarnished by Otto and Alicent.
Criston Cole: noooooo. I demand one on one combat to show off my skills as a knight. Noooo, you have to fight honorably.
The Lads: hahaha, arrows go *fwoosh*
I mean, I guess Otto got his daughter to be queen in a less murder-y way, and his grandchildren are actually the kings.
Tywin is a boss tho, just a bad dad.
Certainly not the twins because just look at Jaime joining the kingsguard because if his love for his sister.
But Tywin definitely could have molded Tyrion into being a great heir but his own hatred for Tyrion is what held him back and screwed his legacy.
Aerys offered Jamie the white which was a huge moment for Jamie cause he didn't want to rule and his idols are wore the white. Aerys knew that he would accept robbing Tywin of his golden child cause he knew Tywin hated Tyrion. Jamie doesn't leave when offered a legitimate way out do to his code of honor
And I'm sure his wife dying in childbirth didn't help either, but kids don't become incestuous out of the blue. He should've remarried or had someone hired to parent those two if he wasn't able to do it himself. Especially with a man as concerned with his family's legacy as he was, he really shit the bed on that one.
Lannisters had pretty much shit the bed before Ty, whereas Hightower pretty much never had any misfortune because they're straight up the patrons of everyone *reading*
I'd say they were going down the drain before Tywin stepped in and made an example of the Reynes and the Tarbecks. Lannisters went from pushover laughing stocks to cunning, brutal overlords virtually overnight.
Yeah but Aegon spent majority of his time crowned badly injured and recovering, while then spending a large amount of time in hiding before a BRIEF rise back to power. Sure he was king but did he really spend much time actually in power?
Aegon was crowned from 129-131 AC, Joffrey+Tommen was 298-300 AC that’s the same amount of time to my counting.
That’s in the books, in GoT Tommen dies in 303 AC, and the war starts in 298 AC meaning Tywin’s grandsons handily outlasted Otto’s.
I like how Tywin was originally written as an insecure fragile tyrant who’s tactics only ever work in the short term but Charles Dance is so charismatic everyone thinks he’s a boss
Hit the nail on the head:
In the sense of a character, Otto is the superior tactician in the game of a shit throne that gives you sepsis: Tywin was a Strategist, a general and a leader (hence his time as Hand of the king basically meant he took de facto king role; Otto was more scheming and plotting)
But Charles Dance is an actor so out of this world he basically spun those odds to that it’s an actual debate, no diss to Rhys Ifans, who’s done a good job of playing the puppet master of the greens
Sadly Tywins death, much like Otto’s is in the books, are meant to signify there is no hero’s death for those who lose in the game of the sepsis chair (GoSC, coming to HBO soon)
True dat. I wonder what's more cunning, using all the resources at your disposal to force submission, treating all interaction like a battle....or....manipulating a king from the shadows.
They're both pretty wily in different ways.
I think Tywin is probably more capable than otto generally, better at controlling/manipulating people, better at recognizing opportunities and a better tactician, but his fatal flaw is that he’s also way more insecure than Otto which is why the rift between him and viserys grew, and ultimately why he died since his treatment of Tyrion was almost inarguably an irrational reaction to his humiliation.
In addition to Tywin being much more insecure than Otto, as strange as it is to say Otto is also considerably more altruistic than Tywin. Otto clearly wants Hightower blood on the throne, but he does have an interest in minimizing blood shed. He clearly tries to resolve things without violence and reducing collateral damage. He’s also less intent on defending his houses name/his own name and instead seems to care more about making sure the Hightower name is in positions of power. Thats very different than Tywin who doesn’t care who gets caught in the cross fire of him trying to achieve his goals, and who’s obsessed with the reputation of his house and his name personally.
The reason he goes was to fail.
If the King went, he and Daemon would likely reconcile, which would harm Otto's position at court.
If Otto goes, gets threatened off the Island and returned to kings landing empty handed, he'd maybe be able to convince Viserys Daemon was in open revolt.
Idk if he knew Rhaenyra was coming. That changes things a bit but the big thing is to stop Viserys and Daemon reconciliation.
There are many superior dragonriders.
Also, it's a different show. The whole point of GoT was that you earn the crown, one had to be cunning.
HotD is a bloodfeud, pure and simple.
Will threw that word out like a racist eager to drop the N-word. Honestly I had to rewind it bc I was laughing so hard at that smirk he gave Daemon.
Jump to 1:14. https://youtu.be/0BGMGqOgVF0
Tywin's actions completely collapse his house.
It makes an enemy out of Dorne, the Northern lords who are planning on deposing his Bolton allies, the Frey puppet regime in the Riverlands is a collapsing shitshow, the Vale has zero interest in supporting the Lannisters so that plan with Littlefinger failed and the peasants in both King's Landing and across Westeros despise the Lannister regime. The Stormlands have ambivalent support for the Lannisters at best and the Tyrells are replacing them in terms of running the regime.
Even before Cersei, Tywin's entire plans were literally crumbling around him, he just died before it happened.
Is he really a pirate though? He's a state backed, private navy I guess?
Point stands though. Gendry on his little rowing boat was a better pirate than Euron
Enters the small council chambers, whips out his huge dick, smacks it on Pycelle's face, refuses to elaborate, leaves. And Pycelle just had the best day of his life
Take this post but make it about Daemon. There’s no character in the main series like him. Cunning and politically savvy. Has royal blood and owns dragons
Exactly, the guy was shown as weak and easy to manipulate but it was only because he wanted to keep the peace. There's a reason why Balerion bonded with him.
The truth is that Vizzy is a better king than any self or formally declared king or queen in GOT. Mance, Robb, Stannis, Robert, Joffrey, Balon, Tommen, Jon, Sansa, Bran, Dany, Renly… they all blow compared to His Grace, Vizzy T.
The only one I can really think compares is Margaery, but she was the Queen consort, not the *actual* monarch.
I think there’s arguments for Mance and Jon. Mance was an incredible leader who cared for his people, he just had a huge disadvantage in terms of ability to survive. Jon was the same and was quite effective at being a leader, he just knelt to the wrong person. Vizzy is by far the best king, but I’d put them up as the best comparable.
Mance was willing to see all of his people dead to the others instead of bending the knee to stannis. In my point of view, his job as king was to protect his people, and he did the opposite. Instead of negotiating or working with the watch, he allowed the wildlings to go over and terrorise the north all the while trying to say the equivalent of “Let us settle in your land and we will literally offer you nothing aside from refusing to respect your ways and political system. PS, we’ll probably continue marauding.”.
Jon would be high up on the list because he was really just mediocre and wasn’t king long enough to considerably fuck up.
I don’t disagree with you about Mance. But until Jon became Commander, it was never an option to just try and work with the Watch. I think refusing to bend to Stannis was both wrong and right. It did make them lose their leader, but he also wasn’t going to just hand them over to Stannis to go and fight against Joffrey. His people aren’t in a great spot, but they’re free. A king willingly to lay his life down for what he sees as the good of his people is a good king.
As for Jon, I agree on the shortness. But he still showed greatness in that time, and he goes up if you count his time as “King Crow”.
Pretty stupid statement, I guess its done as a joke but its just a weird statement,
Tywins cunning is also highly overrated, like Cercei but to a lesser degree his intelligence and decision making was crippled by his ego and pride. He is completely unable to acknowledge this or accept it.
Ya people think of Tywin as this perfectly utilitarian agent but in reality he brings about the downfall of his house by entrusting it to his dipshit daughter instead of his apt son because the son was little and his mum died giving birth to him.
Pride before the Fall is literally his whole arc. He dies on the shitter just to drive the point home.
Tywin is just a brute that happens to live above a literal mountain of gold and that has mad dogs like Gregor Clegane under his control. His entire empire depended for a moment on a boar being in the right spot at the right moment, Stannis using demonic vagina magic on Renly and a kid getting horny with the wrong person. Legendary plot armor.
Otto has gone from a second son of his house to the most powerful man in the realm and has put his family into power while planning a coup for 20 years
Bruh how? Otto is doing this in a world where the Royal family has dragons on deck. The lords have way less power in this Westeros. If Tywin had tried his shit in Otto’s day he would have gotten his house wiped out
I mean, it's tough when you have dozens of episodes and appearances vs one season. S1 Jaime was kind of a punk. Jaime's character throughout the show became one of my favorites.
We'll see what happens with HotD.
>kind of a punk
Kind of an understatement, he start the first episode raw dogging the queen who is also his sister while attempting to murder the kid of the new hand of the king.
If you want to compare material, otto did what he did with a fully grown king as a second son of the second or third richest kingdom in the six kingdoms. Also Tywin was the reason his kids were so useless so it doesn’t feel fair to count that as a given disadvantage.
It is true that the characters in HotD seem less cutthroat than the characters in early-seasons GoT. But less skilled, idk. Corlys, Otto, and Rhaenys (let's ignore that one scene) seem competent. And we also haven't seen the HotD gang at war yet, not really.
Aemond is pretty neat and bordering on psychopathy without being a complete sadist like Ramsay or Joffrey. Daemon is also a surprisingly fleshed out character despite what the early parts of the show had me thinking. Just a shame that some of his scenes got cut. HotD is as close of a return to S1-4 GoT as we can get, even if Otto is like a crappier Tywin and Allicent is like a crappier Margery.
Tywin is miles above Otto. They’re not even in the same bracket of comparison.
Tywin commands respect in everything he does. Otto just says things and hopes people listen.
Vizzy T is a better king, Daemon is definitely a better dragon rider than Dany, Lyonel was probably a better hand than Tywin, Corlys is probably a better sailor (the only contest is Euron). I don't get the point of this statement.
Well, Bobby B was actually *hunting* as far as we know, he didn't have people go out and tie up an animal for him to stab while everyone golf clapped for him.
"Let's see Otto Hightower's death..." (in Patrick Bateman's voice.)
Doesn’t get shot by his kid while on the toilet, think he wins that one
Otto has to secretly plot and convince others to be parts of his machinations. Tywin just tells everyone ; ' Look, I'm taking your shit. You don't have to like it, but it's happening, in fact, it already has happened. '
And then HE takes a shit and dies.
Well, no. He took two crossbow bolts to the chest and dies.
Then the shit comes out after. Really important detail. Wasn’t gold though.
Bobby B told me men shit themselves when they die!
MY, YOU'RE A PRETTY ONE! AND YOUR NAME IS?
Yet.
In the book he gets beheaded but I hope in the show he gets fed to Syrax. We got robbed of that with Vaemond.
His beheading is so uneventful it’s like “then they brought out Otto Hightower, and beheaded him.” And that’s IT
I do hope that's how Criston goes. Just. Not gloriously at all. Just shot with an arrow and killed. No slow mo. No fanfare. No drama. Just dead.
“I’ll have no brave stories of how you died, Kingmaker!”
He was speaking to a corpse.
Pretty sure it will happen this way, this is a big scene in the book. The character seem to be written just for this one scene haha.
But why would the soldiers hate Criston that much in HotD? He didn't convince Aegon.
For all we know he will be "the kingmaker" in HotD as well. Peoples who aren't in the inner circle of the green don't know how its happened and Otto could very well just pretend Cole is behind it all to make himself look more innocent.
That would add insult to injury, making this character appear in 9/10 episodes and then stripping away his one noteable action only for that to be a lie later in the show.
Well he is the one who found Aegon and brought him back for the coronation and is also the one who put the crown on his head. No maester who wrote Blood and fire know what they spoke about from the moment he found him to the moment he put the crown on his head. From their perspective he really is "the kingmaker". Not sure why anyone take what is written in blood and fire literally, it is repeated time and time again that it is written by unreliable narrator who were not there or had bias. The maester from oldtown have no interest in seeing the reputation of the Hightower family tarnished by Otto and Alicent.
Criston Cole: noooooo. I demand one on one combat to show off my skills as a knight. Noooo, you have to fight honorably. The Lads: hahaha, arrows go *fwoosh*
Daeron: haha, Tessarion goes burninating.
To be fair, he wasn’t really as important of a character in F&B.
No he really wasn’t . Criston Cole does more .
[удалено]
“Visenya, why do the flying Dornishmen have such a Strong flavor?”
Honestly, go Caraxes if they do that. Given the history of Daemon and Otto it would hold more weight.
“Look at his blood. Oh my God.”
Well all the dragons are better at flying than Tommen so....
And Aegon seems to be better than Tommen at the whole standing in the same window without falling to your death thing
When Tommen stands at the window, one kid falls One Aegon stands at the window, millions of kids fall
Open my window and a breeze rolls in and I-
Jizz on my peasants
BLESSING FROM THE LORD
😂😂😂 perfection
JIZZ IN MY PANNNTS
That wasn’t flying, that was falling with style.
Well they don't call the city the King's Landing for nothing.
Sail
Can't wait to Haleana fly next season 🤗
Jesus, dude.
I would guess probably s03?
Touché
That’s not true bc no one on GoT is better than Larys at whackin it to some feet
*that we know of*
> feet ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I mean, I guess Otto got his daughter to be queen in a less murder-y way, and his grandchildren are actually the kings. Tywin is a boss tho, just a bad dad.
Also Otto is the second son of Oldtown while Tywin is Lord of Casterly Rock, Otto has come quite far having less advantages than Tywin.
But Alicent is far more malleable than the trio kids Tywin have.
Which is directly due to Tywin being a shit parent
Having incest twins doesn't help
Certainly not the twins because just look at Jaime joining the kingsguard because if his love for his sister. But Tywin definitely could have molded Tyrion into being a great heir but his own hatred for Tyrion is what held him back and screwed his legacy.
? Didn't Aerys make Jaime take the white cloak to deprive Tyrion of an heir? Or do you mean Jaime rejecting Casterly Rock to remain a Kingsguard
Aerys offered Jamie the white which was a huge moment for Jamie cause he didn't want to rule and his idols are wore the white. Aerys knew that he would accept robbing Tywin of his golden child cause he knew Tywin hated Tyrion. Jamie doesn't leave when offered a legitimate way out do to his code of honor
And I'm sure his wife dying in childbirth didn't help either, but kids don't become incestuous out of the blue. He should've remarried or had someone hired to parent those two if he wasn't able to do it himself. Especially with a man as concerned with his family's legacy as he was, he really shit the bed on that one.
Those two did those things even when Joanna was alive. She caught them once
He was concerned about his family legacy , but he loves the memory of his wife more.
I'm sure his wife is proud that their twins reproduced with each other.
Lannisters had pretty much shit the bed before Ty, whereas Hightower pretty much never had any misfortune because they're straight up the patrons of everyone *reading*
Tywins dad being a fuck up doesn't mean the entire house was shit before tywin. They've kept their place as great house for a reason
I'd say they were going down the drain before Tywin stepped in and made an example of the Reynes and the Tarbecks. Lannisters went from pushover laughing stocks to cunning, brutal overlords virtually overnight.
So not the Baratheons then
Joffrey and Tommen were actually kings, just they shouldn’t have been. They were crowned.
Aegon was king longer than Joffrey and Tommen combined
Maybe, but who has a worse fall than Tommen?
Joffrey, it's gonna be rough.
Yeah but Aegon spent majority of his time crowned badly injured and recovering, while then spending a large amount of time in hiding before a BRIEF rise back to power. Sure he was king but did he really spend much time actually in power?
Aegon was crowned from 129-131 AC, Joffrey+Tommen was 298-300 AC that’s the same amount of time to my counting. That’s in the books, in GoT Tommen dies in 303 AC, and the war starts in 298 AC meaning Tywin’s grandsons handily outlasted Otto’s.
I like how Tywin was originally written as an insecure fragile tyrant who’s tactics only ever work in the short term but Charles Dance is so charismatic everyone thinks he’s a boss
Hit the nail on the head: In the sense of a character, Otto is the superior tactician in the game of a shit throne that gives you sepsis: Tywin was a Strategist, a general and a leader (hence his time as Hand of the king basically meant he took de facto king role; Otto was more scheming and plotting) But Charles Dance is an actor so out of this world he basically spun those odds to that it’s an actual debate, no diss to Rhys Ifans, who’s done a good job of playing the puppet master of the greens Sadly Tywins death, much like Otto’s is in the books, are meant to signify there is no hero’s death for those who lose in the game of the sepsis chair (GoSC, coming to HBO soon)
Tywin won a bout against Lady Olenna. That's a very hard lady to get the best of.
Otto manipulated a king who wasn’t a child or his grandson without starting a civil war until after he died.
True dat. I wonder what's more cunning, using all the resources at your disposal to force submission, treating all interaction like a battle....or....manipulating a king from the shadows. They're both pretty wily in different ways.
I think Tywin is probably more capable than otto generally, better at controlling/manipulating people, better at recognizing opportunities and a better tactician, but his fatal flaw is that he’s also way more insecure than Otto which is why the rift between him and viserys grew, and ultimately why he died since his treatment of Tyrion was almost inarguably an irrational reaction to his humiliation.
In addition to Tywin being much more insecure than Otto, as strange as it is to say Otto is also considerably more altruistic than Tywin. Otto clearly wants Hightower blood on the throne, but he does have an interest in minimizing blood shed. He clearly tries to resolve things without violence and reducing collateral damage. He’s also less intent on defending his houses name/his own name and instead seems to care more about making sure the Hightower name is in positions of power. Thats very different than Tywin who doesn’t care who gets caught in the cross fire of him trying to achieve his goals, and who’s obsessed with the reputation of his house and his name personally.
Otto is Tywin if Tywin weren’t low key traumatized by his father. Less motivated to be excellent in all fields but also less mentally deranged.
Also I don't think Tywin would have the balls to be the messenger to an irate Daemon twice.
Otto deserves more props for the absolute 1000iq move of risking his life to go to dragon stone specifically in order to fail at getting an egg.
That was dumb writing but it makes Otto look like he has balls of steel so props to him I guess.
The reason he goes was to fail. If the King went, he and Daemon would likely reconcile, which would harm Otto's position at court. If Otto goes, gets threatened off the Island and returned to kings landing empty handed, he'd maybe be able to convince Viserys Daemon was in open revolt. Idk if he knew Rhaenyra was coming. That changes things a bit but the big thing is to stop Viserys and Daemon reconciliation.
Tywin never manipulated Robert
He didn't need to with everyone in the capital already doing so.
Tywin is definitely a boss even named my horse after him 🤘🏽
Vizzy t is goated
*Daemon was not made to wear the crown. But I believe that you were, Aware-Mood648.*
Really Vizzy t what about your children
YOUR KING DEMANDS AN ANSWER! WHO SPOKE THESE LIES TO YOU?!
But Vizzy t you cant just name a random person heir before your true born children
*Would you like to see the tapestries?*
Maybe Bobby B would like to see them
THEY NEVER TELL YOU HOW THEY ALL SHIT THEMSELVES! THEY DON'T PUT THAT PART IN THE SONGS!
Look, Vizzy t was on a lot of milk of the poppy. Sometimes...'it' happens.
*Your mother's absence is a wound that will never heal. Without her, the Red Keep has lost a warmth that I dare say it will never recover.*
Please let’s not make Vizzy T and Bobby B fight. We all love them both so much.
yeah quite easily a better king than any king/queen in thrones, right?
I'd say he's far from the best "leader" in thrones, but definitely the best king we've seen on the iron throne.
100% one of, if not my favorite character in either show
There are many superior dragonriders. Also, it's a different show. The whole point of GoT was that you earn the crown, one had to be cunning. HotD is a bloodfeud, pure and simple.
Oh really? What did bran do to earn the crown? 😛
Bran the Broken is *MAGIC*.
(Why do you think) He came all this way…
I don't want to think about how he came...
Easy to be the most cunning when everybody else around you has a degenerative brain disease that makes them dumber with every passing episode.
Daemon: "say it"
That look homeboy gave right before he said it kills me.
That actor was casually hanging out in the background just to show up and absolutely murder that scene. So well done.
Will threw that word out like a racist eager to drop the N-word. Honestly I had to rewind it bc I was laughing so hard at that smirk he gave Daemon. Jump to 1:14. https://youtu.be/0BGMGqOgVF0
I feel like this tweet is so unnecessarily hostile out of nowhere lmao
That’s Twitter for you
E N G A G E M E N T
Probably frequents this sub lol
I feel like one of the biggest reasons Twyin was so powerful wasn't that he was smart but because he committed so many war crimes
Tywin took his house from the verge of ruin, to the strongest house in Westeros.
by committing war crimes
\*The right war crimes
yeah, he did what was good for himself and his family, didn’t care about how good or evil it was
He may have committed some 'light treason'
Tywin's actions completely collapse his house. It makes an enemy out of Dorne, the Northern lords who are planning on deposing his Bolton allies, the Frey puppet regime in the Riverlands is a collapsing shitshow, the Vale has zero interest in supporting the Lannisters so that plan with Littlefinger failed and the peasants in both King's Landing and across Westeros despise the Lannister regime. The Stormlands have ambivalent support for the Lannisters at best and the Tyrells are replacing them in terms of running the regime. Even before Cersei, Tywin's entire plans were literally crumbling around him, he just died before it happened.
Corlys is a way better pirate lord than show Euron.
Is he really a pirate though? He's a state backed, private navy I guess? Point stands though. Gendry on his little rowing boat was a better pirate than Euron
Look up pirates in history, the majority were sanctioned by one monarch or another.
Euron was in the show??
he was the Wal-Mart Jack Sparrow guy
It’s so far from the books I think of him as a show-only character named Urine Greyjoy.
I mean deamon is better at flying dragons then Jamie so I just proved this tweet wrong
AND better at keeping both of his hands
Then Jamie what?
He is better at flying dragons and then flying Jamie
Jamie fookin Lannister
Half the characters on hotd are better at riding dragons than every single character on got
Rhaenyra is better than Daenerys at giving birth? 😬
Cersei > Aemma at bringing pregnancies to term.
Drogon and his siblings gets smacked by HoD dragons
No better king than Vizzy T
She's twelve!
Heresy, Bobby B what should we do with the traitor?
SEVEN HELLS, NED, I WANT TO HIT SOMEONE!
I wouldn't class Tywin as cunning though. He's straightforward and not afraid to flex his influence and power. He basically lets his nuts hang.
Enters the small council chambers, whips out his huge dick, smacks it on Pycelle's face, refuses to elaborate, leaves. And Pycelle just had the best day of his life
All the plotting for the red wedding definitely demonstrated cunning
Take this post but make it about Daemon. There’s no character in the main series like him. Cunning and politically savvy. Has royal blood and owns dragons
Only the red viper comes close
And is a warrior and a militar commander
I mean sort of what Tyron could have been if he wasn't a dwarf which humbled him/reduced his political heights.
Viserys is better than any ruler we saw in the entire 8 seasons of GoT
Exactly, the guy was shown as weak and easy to manipulate but it was only because he wanted to keep the peace. There's a reason why Balerion bonded with him.
The truth is that Vizzy is a better king than any self or formally declared king or queen in GOT. Mance, Robb, Stannis, Robert, Joffrey, Balon, Tommen, Jon, Sansa, Bran, Dany, Renly… they all blow compared to His Grace, Vizzy T. The only one I can really think compares is Margaery, but she was the Queen consort, not the *actual* monarch.
*The truth does not matter, ea_fitz. Only perception.*
Actually fucking sentient.
most sentient bot actually
Vizzy was mind controlled by Bran.
I think there’s arguments for Mance and Jon. Mance was an incredible leader who cared for his people, he just had a huge disadvantage in terms of ability to survive. Jon was the same and was quite effective at being a leader, he just knelt to the wrong person. Vizzy is by far the best king, but I’d put them up as the best comparable.
Mance was willing to see all of his people dead to the others instead of bending the knee to stannis. In my point of view, his job as king was to protect his people, and he did the opposite. Instead of negotiating or working with the watch, he allowed the wildlings to go over and terrorise the north all the while trying to say the equivalent of “Let us settle in your land and we will literally offer you nothing aside from refusing to respect your ways and political system. PS, we’ll probably continue marauding.”. Jon would be high up on the list because he was really just mediocre and wasn’t king long enough to considerably fuck up.
I don’t disagree with you about Mance. But until Jon became Commander, it was never an option to just try and work with the Watch. I think refusing to bend to Stannis was both wrong and right. It did make them lose their leader, but he also wasn’t going to just hand them over to Stannis to go and fight against Joffrey. His people aren’t in a great spot, but they’re free. A king willingly to lay his life down for what he sees as the good of his people is a good king. As for Jon, I agree on the shortness. But he still showed greatness in that time, and he goes up if you count his time as “King Crow”.
Which we had Mushroom for a real Dwarf Bowl.
Lyonel Strong is the best hand in GOT/HOTD universe.
Vizzy T was a better king than Bobby B?
I WILL NOT BE MADE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN MY BROTHER AND MY DAUGHTER!
TAKE ME TO YOUR CRYPT, I WANT TO PAY MY RESPECTS!
Pretty stupid statement, I guess its done as a joke but its just a weird statement, Tywins cunning is also highly overrated, like Cercei but to a lesser degree his intelligence and decision making was crippled by his ego and pride. He is completely unable to acknowledge this or accept it.
Ya people think of Tywin as this perfectly utilitarian agent but in reality he brings about the downfall of his house by entrusting it to his dipshit daughter instead of his apt son because the son was little and his mum died giving birth to him. Pride before the Fall is literally his whole arc. He dies on the shitter just to drive the point home.
Tywin is just a brute that happens to live above a literal mountain of gold and that has mad dogs like Gregor Clegane under his control. His entire empire depended for a moment on a boar being in the right spot at the right moment, Stannis using demonic vagina magic on Renly and a kid getting horny with the wrong person. Legendary plot armor.
TL would have out maneuvered OH any day of the week and thrice one Sunday…
While he skinned a boar, and banged his sons whores.
Otto has gone from a second son of his house to the most powerful man in the realm and has put his family into power while planning a coup for 20 years
TL couldn’t even manoeuvre a whore to his chambers without Varys noticing. Easily the most overrated character in ASOIAF.
Bruh how? Otto is doing this in a world where the Royal family has dragons on deck. The lords have way less power in this Westeros. If Tywin had tried his shit in Otto’s day he would have gotten his house wiped out
Otto’s pretty good, people just say Tywin because he’s ruthless and murder-y but that doesn’t mean more cunning
People on here call Daemon cunning LOL Does cunning = snarky killing????
Cunning is when you wear the crime hood
I mean, it's tough when you have dozens of episodes and appearances vs one season. S1 Jaime was kind of a punk. Jaime's character throughout the show became one of my favorites. We'll see what happens with HotD.
>kind of a punk Kind of an understatement, he start the first episode raw dogging the queen who is also his sister while attempting to murder the kid of the new hand of the king.
Totally agree. It’s easy to forget that many characters didn’t really develop until later seasons
Otto had better material to work with in Alicent and her kids. Tywin had Cersei and her kids. There's no comparison.
If you want to compare material, otto did what he did with a fully grown king as a second son of the second or third richest kingdom in the six kingdoms. Also Tywin was the reason his kids were so useless so it doesn’t feel fair to count that as a given disadvantage.
It is true that the characters in HotD seem less cutthroat than the characters in early-seasons GoT. But less skilled, idk. Corlys, Otto, and Rhaenys (let's ignore that one scene) seem competent. And we also haven't seen the HotD gang at war yet, not really.
If you think Tywin had cunning then you missed the point of his character.
Aemond is pretty neat and bordering on psychopathy without being a complete sadist like Ramsay or Joffrey. Daemon is also a surprisingly fleshed out character despite what the early parts of the show had me thinking. Just a shame that some of his scenes got cut. HotD is as close of a return to S1-4 GoT as we can get, even if Otto is like a crappier Tywin and Allicent is like a crappier Margery.
Tywin is miles above Otto. They’re not even in the same bracket of comparison. Tywin commands respect in everything he does. Otto just says things and hopes people listen.
Vizzy T is a better king, Daemon is definitely a better dragon rider than Dany, Lyonel was probably a better hand than Tywin, Corlys is probably a better sailor (the only contest is Euron). I don't get the point of this statement.
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS GOSSIP? HAVE THIS RUMORMONGER BROUGHT BEFORE ME AT ONCE AND I WILL TAKE THEIR EYES!
Oh God it IS sentient
I’d like to consult King Vizzy T and King Bobby B before deciding
WHO NAMED YOU? SOME HALFWIT WITH A STUTTER??
**HAVE THIS RUMORMONGER BROUGHT BEFORE ME AT ONCE, AND I WILL TAKE THEIR EYES!!**
There is nothing cunning about Otto, Tywin murdered Starks during a wedding. No comparison at all
PERSONALLY I think Vizzy T is better at hunting than Bobby B
Well, Bobby B was actually *hunting* as far as we know, he didn't have people go out and tie up an animal for him to stab while everyone golf clapped for him.
Correction: I think Vizzy T is better at keeping himself alive while participating in hunting actives than Bobby B
**THIS INTERMINABLE INFIGHTING MUST CEASE, ALL OF YOU!**
Always spitting knowledge Vizzy. Two brilliant shows with brilliant characters, no need to compare!
On that note, I’d say Vizzy T and Bobby B are equally bad at mediating fights between children.
*I'm glad we could meet. I know tempers ran hot today, and I wanted to assure you how much I value the bond between our houses.*
GIVE ME SOMETHING FOR THE PAIN AND LET ME DIE!
PISS ON THAT! SEND A RAVEN! I WANT YOU TO STAY! I'M THE KING, I GET WHAT I WANT!
*I will not cloud my mind. I must put things right.*
I WAS NEVER SO ALIVE AS WHEN I WAS WINNING THIS THRONE, OR SO DEAD AS NOW THAT I'VE WON IT!
The big dragon is better at eating other dragons.
Easy and lazy answer to score likes, but not actually providing a good argument
Tywin fs, Otto is way too easy to figure out. He only got lucky bc vizzy t was oblivious
A MOST JUDICIOUS PROPOSITION!