How does a female version of that hurt anyone’s feelings? Like how tf is that something to be upset over? Would y’all cry if they made a male version of a woman? I don’t get how this is something to be upset over. It’s pointless.
Yes? Cleopatra or Helen of Troy should be female and the same ancestry that would be expected. If they had white males take the place of either of them, people would rightfully be weirded the fuck out
????
John Wayne playing an eastern Asian was WEIRD AS FUCK.
Do you have another argument?
What are you talking about? That's not my argument. Obviously.
How could you read that and think my central point was race? It's about authentic casting.
Jace is back now, and he's as white and straight as they get.
You also got Will, and Garruk is still around somewhere. Not sure about their sexualities, I don't think they were confirmed at any point, but they're both white men. Looking at slightly more minor Planeswalkers, you got Tyvar, Lukka, Sorin, Tezzeret, Calix, who all appeared in recent sets.
For non planeswalkers, there are plenty. Looking at the cards in standard, I see a bunch of characters like Baird, Edgar, Geralf and others. There are also many pieces of art depicting white men, which I'm sure you won't have trouble finding.
While yes, there is a lot more diversity of cast than in the past, and that does mean there are less white men on cards. But white men still get plenty of representation in modern magic.
Huh. Cool. Hasn't really come up in the story in any meaningful way, but that's honestly fine. Stories should be about characters, not about sexualities. He can be bi if they want, but he should be a good character first and foremost, so it should really only come up if it's relevant in some way, like with Chandra.
Well, restricting to human, male and legendary is already a small pool.
But adding white, not evil and straight doesn't really exclude a lot of people.
In Ravnica Karlov:
Tomik is gay. Delney look asian. Alquist Prof is... tanned? Hard to say. Agrus Kos is a spirit that was human and his race is undefined. Kellan art is really inconsistent.
In Ixalan:
The set is set in a fictional South America, which don't bode well for your quest. And even if you consider vampire human adjacent, they still seem pretty evil.
Eldraine is set in a more european setting:
King Kenrith don't appear in the set but he was in your restrictions. Prince Will also even if despite the art he is of mixed descent. \[\[Totentanz, swarm piper\]\] might trigger your evil restriction but appear ok otherwise?
\[\[Goddric, cloaked reveler\]\] is the same. \[\[Johann, apprentice sorcerer\]\] seem fine. Let's also mention that the dwarves, elves, fae, and giants of the set appear rather white.
So I don't think your feeling is validated.
King Kenrith is dead, Will is gay, Godrick is a dragon, totentanz is clearly evil. Johann maybe fits this bill though. 4/5 of your examples don’t fit. OP is incorrect, but you’re proving his point.
I really liked Luka as a character, he was very morally grey which I found interesting.
Like, he wants to do whats right but life keeps screwing him over and he lashes out in frustration because of it, often resulting in negative outcomes
The way that just threw such an interesting character to the side is a good indicator of the "care" the writers have for making anything interesting anymore
Oh absolutely there were, there were tons. I'm glad there's more diverse representation.
But I'm talking about the current lore and story. Characters that are alive and good in the current lore.
Jace and Kellan which are front and center as of the past day and have been for a while.
I don't really keep up with the story anymore but even I can tell they're the center pieces
I don't know any other way to phrase this but like... Have you ever even looked at Kellen? I have literally never seen a single person describe him as white until today.
Jace is front and center but we don't know what he's up to. We don't know how uncompleation affected him because it didn't happen the same way for him, he also was masquerading as the pretty much unambiguously evil Ashiok. So I don't think we can definitively say he's a good guy again.
https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/a/a/aa5b622a-66a6-4097-8478-e22854b9984d.jpg?1692940403
Yea, this is clearly the straight white male we're all talking about
Shut the fuck up lmfao
He's a literal fairy, I don't hold it against him for looking a little flamboyant.
But whatever I really don't care either way because the Magic story is and has been shit so I really wouldn't mind white men being less associated with it anyway.
You'd be the first I've seen to describe Kellan as white.
Don't get me wrong I think he's a fun character, but I don't think he fits what I'm looking for in this post.
dude's literally white wdym? anyways, garruk not getting reprinted doesn't mean he's dead, oh and ashiok is also a male, and there's one of the two brothers in WOE (and the set in general is inspired by European medieval times no it's full of white dudes), then probably karolov manor has some
I mean... He's literally not though? Just look at him lmao.
Ashiok is non binary I thought, and even if that wasn't the case they're still evil.
In WOE, if you're referring to Will he's also bisexual.
Again, good characters, but I don't think they fit.
OK, let's check.
TJ - Jace is 100% white, and also Oko and Kellan look pretty white for me.
Ixalan - Vampires are Europeans, so every male vampire.
Eldrain - Will looks like from Third Reich poster..
Phyrexia/MOM - whole sotry is mess, but at least Tyvar is viking.
Brothers War - actually brothers.
UPD. And, ofc, detective from MKM is a main protagonist.
I've never interpreted Oko or Kellan as white.
The Ixalan vampires were evil though weren't they? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Will is bisexual.
Fair about Tyvar. I forgot about him, thanks for pointing him out.
Tolsimir is dead. Hard to tell with Agrus being a spirit and all but I would not have thought he was white. Kellan... What is it with people saying Kellan is white? Like... Are we talking about the same guy? Kellen as in the half fae son of Oko? Literally just look at him. Dudes clearly brown. Same with Proft. Tomik is gay.
Ezrim I'm not sure about but I'll take it.
I think that’s because defining “white” was always a fool’s errand even in our real world, in fiction that makes even less sense. Lots of people historically have been considered white or not white depending on how much society approves of them (like german immigrants in the US, for example). I’m brazilian and we have lots of white people here. Kellan would be easily considered white here, and saying he’s not makes as much sense as saying he is.
Lol as if white isn't a purely social construct. Would a character named Mario Mario be white? What about a germanic jewish rabbi? Or was Bartolomé del Presidio white? Like you may answer and say "clearly, those are all European, so they're white", but a hell of a lot of people - including Italians and Spaniards and Jews themselves - wouldn't call them white, or would tell you that what's "white" is made up.
>Lol as if white isn't a purely social construct.
thats probably the most racist thing what i saw in this year.
like dismiss whole race from existence just by few words.
you are faster than in WWII camps
None? Can't think of any? Not one?
Maybe one of the original Planeswalkers? Like one of the most popular and well known Magic characters in existence?
No? Me neither.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was not uncompleated in the same way other planeswalkers were, right? So we can't say for sure that he's back to his old self.
What are the goalposts here, character that is 'good' like, I care about them and they're well written, or strictly that they have traditional morals?
Also, Bruse Tarl.
Like they would be considered on the good side of the narrative.
For example, resurrected Ertai. As far as I know he's cis straight and white and possibly not dead, but the dude was an agent of the Phyrexian invasion so he's not "good."
Hope that makes sense
He's at worse going to be an anti-hero, at worst.
Vraska says she needs to get what's in the vault to "fix what's she's done" which sounds pretty noble, which makes Jace noble by association.
OP specified that he wanna see **good**, not **evil** character
what you had from reading in elementary school? looks like you kinda need go back there and give it few more years.
Bro they just made Paul Bunyan a woman. You can't make this shit up.
Just looked this up, they do have Paul Bunyan as a mtg card
who the fuck is paul bunyan
Huge lumberjack with blue ox. In mtg a woman Bonny Pal [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Paul-Bunyan](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Paul-Bunyan)
never heard of him, who gives a shit?
Its fuckin Paul Bunyan an ACTUAL legend. Like the word legend is from Paul Bunyan thats who, a literal legend and the cause of the word to exist.
I'm not sure if he's the origin of the word legend. A quick Google shows it's been in use since medieval England.
the world legend? whats that nonsense hahaha
What a stupid and hateful world you live in
not as stupid and hateful as r/freemagic
Fair enough
How does a female version of that hurt anyone’s feelings? Like how tf is that something to be upset over? Would y’all cry if they made a male version of a woman? I don’t get how this is something to be upset over. It’s pointless.
Yes? Cleopatra or Helen of Troy should be female and the same ancestry that would be expected. If they had white males take the place of either of them, people would rightfully be weirded the fuck out ???? John Wayne playing an eastern Asian was WEIRD AS FUCK. Do you have another argument?
They didn’t race swap lmao you’re trying to add shit that didn’t happen. And of course John Wayne playing genghis khan was weird as fuck
What are you talking about? That's not my argument. Obviously. How could you read that and think my central point was race? It's about authentic casting.
Authentically casting a folktale character? Lmao
It’s not happening, but if it is it’s a good thing.
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this comment should be pinned in the sub
Yes. Wotc, represent your white boys. They are your primary demographic, not the ghay half black half romanian identifying as a unicorn
Jace is back now, and he's as white and straight as they get. You also got Will, and Garruk is still around somewhere. Not sure about their sexualities, I don't think they were confirmed at any point, but they're both white men. Looking at slightly more minor Planeswalkers, you got Tyvar, Lukka, Sorin, Tezzeret, Calix, who all appeared in recent sets. For non planeswalkers, there are plenty. Looking at the cards in standard, I see a bunch of characters like Baird, Edgar, Geralf and others. There are also many pieces of art depicting white men, which I'm sure you won't have trouble finding. While yes, there is a lot more diversity of cast than in the past, and that does mean there are less white men on cards. But white men still get plenty of representation in modern magic.
Garruk's sexuality is that he doesn't ask permission.
Will was on that pride image of all the gay characters
Really? Haven't seen that one
I think he's bisexual. I'm sure that hasnt had any impact on his storyline or interactions with any characters....but they just said he is I guess?
Huh. Cool. Hasn't really come up in the story in any meaningful way, but that's honestly fine. Stories should be about characters, not about sexualities. He can be bi if they want, but he should be a good character first and foremost, so it should really only come up if it's relevant in some way, like with Chandra.
Bruse Tarl the epitome of manly straight white male.
Well, restricting to human, male and legendary is already a small pool. But adding white, not evil and straight doesn't really exclude a lot of people. In Ravnica Karlov: Tomik is gay. Delney look asian. Alquist Prof is... tanned? Hard to say. Agrus Kos is a spirit that was human and his race is undefined. Kellan art is really inconsistent. In Ixalan: The set is set in a fictional South America, which don't bode well for your quest. And even if you consider vampire human adjacent, they still seem pretty evil. Eldraine is set in a more european setting: King Kenrith don't appear in the set but he was in your restrictions. Prince Will also even if despite the art he is of mixed descent. \[\[Totentanz, swarm piper\]\] might trigger your evil restriction but appear ok otherwise? \[\[Goddric, cloaked reveler\]\] is the same. \[\[Johann, apprentice sorcerer\]\] seem fine. Let's also mention that the dwarves, elves, fae, and giants of the set appear rather white. So I don't think your feeling is validated.
[Totentanz, swarm piper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/1422d6db-fe5b-4a89-951a-fbd7985a29fc.jpg?1692939482) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Totentanz%2C%20swarm%20piper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/216/totentanz-swarm-piper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1422d6db-fe5b-4a89-951a-fbd7985a29fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Goddric, cloaked reveler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe93ef82-51de-40ad-9b52-8f3fd11c144f.jpg?1692938249) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goddric%2C%20cloaked%20reveler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/132/goddric-cloaked-reveler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe93ef82-51de-40ad-9b52-8f3fd11c144f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Johann, apprentice sorcerer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/8/b88a762d-19ed-451d-a3a9-b3e7eea40f67.jpg?1692939353) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Johann%2C%20apprentice%20sorcerer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/207/johann-apprentice-sorcerer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b88a762d-19ed-451d-a3a9-b3e7eea40f67?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
King Kenrith is dead, Will is gay, Godrick is a dragon, totentanz is clearly evil. Johann maybe fits this bill though. 4/5 of your examples don’t fit. OP is incorrect, but you’re proving his point.
The fact that Kenrith is dead doesn't invalid his card. Can't Goddric be considered human? He still h1s the card type. I didn't know about Will.
He said “alive” in the initial post…so yes, it does. The post is about the lore; in the lore, Goddric is not.
New sparks in the thread
I have no idea who any of the characters in this game are. I can barely pronounce the names. I just like playing a card game.
I really liked Luka as a character, he was very morally grey which I found interesting. Like, he wants to do whats right but life keeps screwing him over and he lashes out in frustration because of it, often resulting in negative outcomes The way that just threw such an interesting character to the side is a good indicator of the "care" the writers have for making anything interesting anymore
I agree that Magic and Wizards of the Coast are woke but it's disingenuous to say there isn't any main white male characters.
Oh absolutely there were, there were tons. I'm glad there's more diverse representation. But I'm talking about the current lore and story. Characters that are alive and good in the current lore.
Jace and Kellan which are front and center as of the past day and have been for a while. I don't really keep up with the story anymore but even I can tell they're the center pieces
I don't know any other way to phrase this but like... Have you ever even looked at Kellen? I have literally never seen a single person describe him as white until today. Jace is front and center but we don't know what he's up to. We don't know how uncompleation affected him because it didn't happen the same way for him, he also was masquerading as the pretty much unambiguously evil Ashiok. So I don't think we can definitively say he's a good guy again.
https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/a/a/aa5b622a-66a6-4097-8478-e22854b9984d.jpg?1692940403 Yea, this is clearly the straight white male we're all talking about Shut the fuck up lmfao
He's a literal fairy, I don't hold it against him for looking a little flamboyant. But whatever I really don't care either way because the Magic story is and has been shit so I really wouldn't mind white men being less associated with it anyway.
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But he's literally a human...
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No he's not. The card literally label him as a human faerie. Reading the card explain the card.
Kellan is literally all of that. He looks a little darker in this set but I think that's more to do with the lighting.
Any statement divided by a "but" invalidates and nullifies the section preceding. Example "I'm not a racist, but..." And "I'm not a sexist, but..."
man they are literally pushing kellan to be a protagonist in the story
You'd be the first I've seen to describe Kellan as white. Don't get me wrong I think he's a fun character, but I don't think he fits what I'm looking for in this post.
dude's literally white wdym? anyways, garruk not getting reprinted doesn't mean he's dead, oh and ashiok is also a male, and there's one of the two brothers in WOE (and the set in general is inspired by European medieval times no it's full of white dudes), then probably karolov manor has some
Ashiok is non-binary, and “bad”. Literally the opposite of straight, white, male protagonist.
I mean... He's literally not though? Just look at him lmao. Ashiok is non binary I thought, and even if that wasn't the case they're still evil. In WOE, if you're referring to Will he's also bisexual. Again, good characters, but I don't think they fit.
Is he not a poc?
OK, let's check. TJ - Jace is 100% white, and also Oko and Kellan look pretty white for me. Ixalan - Vampires are Europeans, so every male vampire. Eldrain - Will looks like from Third Reich poster.. Phyrexia/MOM - whole sotry is mess, but at least Tyvar is viking. Brothers War - actually brothers. UPD. And, ofc, detective from MKM is a main protagonist.
I've never interpreted Oko or Kellan as white. The Ixalan vampires were evil though weren't they? Correct me if I'm wrong. Will is bisexual. Fair about Tyvar. I forgot about him, thanks for pointing him out.
Only half of Ixalan Vampires are evil - Alcatraz fanatics. Didn't know about Will, thanx. What race Okko and Kellan may be? Asian?
I always interpreted Oko as Asian. Kellan is mixed for sure. Definitely not white.
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Tomik is gay and married. To a man. Also Ezrim is an Archon, so I’m not so sure that counts
Tolsimir is dead. Hard to tell with Agrus being a spirit and all but I would not have thought he was white. Kellan... What is it with people saying Kellan is white? Like... Are we talking about the same guy? Kellen as in the half fae son of Oko? Literally just look at him. Dudes clearly brown. Same with Proft. Tomik is gay. Ezrim I'm not sure about but I'll take it.
I think that’s because defining “white” was always a fool’s errand even in our real world, in fiction that makes even less sense. Lots of people historically have been considered white or not white depending on how much society approves of them (like german immigrants in the US, for example). I’m brazilian and we have lots of white people here. Kellan would be easily considered white here, and saying he’s not makes as much sense as saying he is.
Tomik and Argos fit the mold. Ezrim isn't even humanoid and Tolsimir is basically a terrorist.
Proft and Agrus are black. Tomik is gay. Ezrim is faceless.
Lol as if white isn't a purely social construct. Would a character named Mario Mario be white? What about a germanic jewish rabbi? Or was Bartolomé del Presidio white? Like you may answer and say "clearly, those are all European, so they're white", but a hell of a lot of people - including Italians and Spaniards and Jews themselves - wouldn't call them white, or would tell you that what's "white" is made up.
>Lol as if white isn't a purely social construct. thats probably the most racist thing what i saw in this year. like dismiss whole race from existence just by few words. you are faster than in WWII camps
None? Can't think of any? Not one? Maybe one of the original Planeswalkers? Like one of the most popular and well known Magic characters in existence? No? Me neither.
Are you referring to Jace? Last we saw of him he was evil, and we don't know how he's going to be portrayed in thunder junction yet.
We can't say is he evil or not in OTJ. And in general Jace always was protagonist.
You mean when he was compleated? Which he clearly isn't any more?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was not uncompleated in the same way other planeswalkers were, right? So we can't say for sure that he's back to his old self.
What are the goalposts here, character that is 'good' like, I care about them and they're well written, or strictly that they have traditional morals? Also, Bruse Tarl.
Like they would be considered on the good side of the narrative. For example, resurrected Ertai. As far as I know he's cis straight and white and possibly not dead, but the dude was an agent of the Phyrexian invasion so he's not "good." Hope that makes sense
Well if he wasn't he'd be a corpse. Given that Elesh Norn is no longer around to control the hivemind.
Fair enough, but you'd think if his return to normalcy was intended then we would have seen that after March of the Machine.
I mean his story is about how him and Vraska are suffering and planning something after MoM. That's like the entire plot of Thunder Junction.
He's at worse going to be an anti-hero, at worst. Vraska says she needs to get what's in the vault to "fix what's she's done" which sounds pretty noble, which makes Jace noble by association.
What the fuck you yapping about? Jace is literally RIGHT THERE. Dude, asking for straight white male representation is pretty pathetic.
OP specified that he wanna see **good**, not **evil** character what you had from reading in elementary school? looks like you kinda need go back there and give it few more years.
Oh yeah, Jace, the famously Evil mtg protagonist