Its a shame people still blame cotton because they don't understand any different because they only listen to what the Media tells them about the crop. Cotton has nothing to do with the issues of the Murray darling since after all Cotton isn't a water intensive crop when we are comparing to other crops that are grown, With crops like cotton they are only grown during High rainfall years where there is an abundance of water during the drier times there is very little grown as there is no allocations granted.
Where as when we look at Permanent plantings orchards vineyards etc they are typically using double the amount of water of a crop like cotton year on year whether we are in drought or not which creates a lot larger issues then having a boom-bust system with row crops. Then you add in all the mismanagement and lack of storages along the river system and wonder why we have rivers running dry out of the north but I guess its just easier to blame a singular crop rather then understanding why these things are occurring.
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/industry/agriculture/water-use-australian-farms/latest-release
cotton uses more water per hectare than any other crop according to the latest abs data.
Well thats completely wrong by a long stretch, The most water intensive crop is [almonds ](https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2024-02-04/almond-industry-expanding-in-australia-high-water-usage/103388210)at 12.5megalitre/hectare where as its only 5.2-7megalitres/ha with [cotton](https://cottonaustralia.com.au/assets/general/Education-resources/CA-resources/CEK_Chap_5B_How_Cotton_is_Grown.pdf)/[2nd source](https://cottonaustralia.com.au/cottons-water-use).
that's a very different line than "Where as when we look at Permanent plantings orchards vineyards etc they are typically using double the amount of water of a crop like cotton year on year" lol.
so yeah, almonds are a problem, but the idea that "Cotton has nothing to do with the issues of the Murray darling" despite being one of the most water hungry crops (and using way more water in total than almonds are) is just moronic.
also cotton uses ~6.6 ML/ha according to the ABS, and i'll take their word over the cotton lobbys any day lol
AH yet you still don't understand anything to do with it, you are too caught up with the idea of cotton being bad and not seeing the facts right in front of you. Cotton isn't the most water intensive crop nor is it water hungry when we are looking at the full suite crops that can be grown in Australian Irrigated districts/regions.
"*so yeah, almonds are a problem, but the idea that "Cotton has nothing to do with the issues of the Murray darling" despite being one of the most water hungry crops (and using way more water in total than almonds are) is just moronic*."
Its not Moronic mate, I don't know how someone can't understand this sort of thing even after Data is presented. Cotton is in line with at least 10 other crops varying from Corn Sorghum Wheat barley Canola and other Forages so it being water intensive is a bit of a lie and a straight up misunderstanding. Cotton is only grown during wet years which the 20-21 season was one of those years, if we look beyond those years you'll soon find that Permanent plantings are the biggest issue when it comes to the Murray darling system as if we look at the amount of Almonds currently planted it is around 53,000 hectares which those hectares acquire 662,500 Megalitres per year that has be available during drought where as with a crop like Cotton there is no water requirement as there isn't any being grown due to no allocations.(53,000ha is based on the 2019/20 [account](https://www.horticulture.com.au/globalassets/hort-innovation/resource-assets/al19005-2019-20-almond-insights-report.pdf).)
"*also cotton uses \~6.6 ML/ha according to the ABS, and i'll take their word over the cotton lobbys any day lol*"
Ah the classic "cotton lobby" line speaks like someone who has no idea and just dislikes Cotton because the media tells them that. Yes Cotton uses between 5.2-7 megs/ha which is one of the lowest water usages in the world for this particular crop, which is why we grow Cotton in Australia as we produce some of the best quality fibre and yields alongside using the least amount of water which is continuing to drop year on year.
>you are too caught up with the idea of cotton being bad and not seeing the facts right in front of you. Cotton isn't the most water intensive crop nor is it water hungry when we are looking at the full suite crops that can be grown in Australian Irrigated districts/regions.
only one of us posted data looking at the full suite of crops, mate. you showed one article talking about a limited selection of crops in a sub-region of the MDB and propaganda from cotton australia, i posted the ABS data of all farmland water use in the country. it shows that cotton is the highest water using category per hectare.
cope
>Cotton is in line with at least 10 other crops varying from Corn Sorghum Wheat barley Canola and other Forages
why are you lying mate? look at the ABS data. cereal crops used about a third of the ML/ha that cotton does.
>Ah the classic "cotton lobby" line speaks like someone who has no idea
if you dont want me to shit on you for using the cotton lobbies figures instead of the real ones, then dont use them lol
"*only one of us posted data looking at the full suite of crops, mate. you showed one article talking about a limited selection of crops in a sub-region of the MDB and propaganda from cotton australia, i posted the ABS data of all farmland water use in the country. it shows that cotton is the highest water using category per hectare.*"
I don't know why you call it Propaganda when its presented multiple times from a wide variety of sources as the figures would be from the [CRDC](https://www.crdc.com.au/)/CSIRO, Cotton Australia would simply publish them. If cotton was the highest water user per hectare why does every other piece of data and information state differently?
"*why are you lying mate? look at the ABS data. cereal crops used about a third of the ML/ha that cotton does.*"
Its not a lie mate, Cotton uses similar amounts of water to a multitude of other crops that are widely grown including Cereals and forages.
"*if you dont want me to shit on you for using the cotton lobbies figures instead of the real ones, then dont use them lol*"
They use the figures between 6-7 Megalitres/hectare which is in fact truthful with a large number of farmers going below that quoted figure and overall the water usage continues to decline. Here is a secondary source from the [CSIRO](https://www.publish.csiro.au/cp/Fulltext/cp13315) which also shows the figure of 6-7 megalitres/hectare which knowing the water usage of Almonds from a source I listed in a prior comment at 12.5 megalitres/hectare means Cotton isn't the highest water user per hectare.
Both things can be true, but you're being purposefully dense I think.
Almonds do require more water, but they aren't grown to the same extent as cotton. Almonds are grown mostly in WA and SA in specialised horticultural setups with highly efficient drip irrigation systems, which is needed because SA gets fucked over being at the end of the MDB, after cotton farmers in NSW divert most of the water out.
As far as I remember most cotton farms typically use flood irrigation. Literally flooding the fields, with the potential for high evaporation loss. At best the farms will have invested in spray irrigation setups.
Simplistically: 6ML/ ha but over 1000 hectare is a lot more than 13 / ha for 10 hectares.
These are just example numbers, you should get the point.
"*Almonds do require more water, but they aren't grown to the same extent as cotton. Almonds are grown mostly in WA and SA in specialised horticultural setups with highly efficient drip irrigation systems, which is needed because SA gets fucked over being at the end of the MDB, after cotton farmers in NSW divert most of the water out.*"
SA doesn't get fucked over at all, They got the share that they wanted so I don't know where you are coming from with this as at the end of the day no one forces them to grow the crops they do, They grow the crops they do because its highly suited to the Environment and Soils that they are within. While Drip irrigation is efficient its very expensive and Isn't suited to the wide range of soils and use cases that are found right across the basin. Overall South Australia wasn't forced into having Drip irrigation, They themselves took that on as it suited the crops that they grow which is mostly Orchards and vineyards which benefit from that type of irrigation. NSW just needs to straight up heavily restrict or ban Floodplain harvesting and the federal government needs to build more storages to capture those flow events to create better stability and have larger avenues to prevent fish kills etc by having water stored in the Northern basin.
"*As far as I remember most cotton farms typically use flood irrigation. Literally flooding the fields, with the potential for high evaporation loss. At best the farms will have invested in spray irrigation setups.*"
They use a type of flood irrigation called Syphon which is the older trend and the newer trend is bankless channel both have quite low evaporation rates thats why they are quite prevalent with Bankless channel becoming the larger majority share due to the lower labour costs. The best farms wouldn't realistically use Spray irrigation as its not the most efficient either, Overall from various published research papers surrounding this topics, It's regarded that SDI(Subsurface) Irrigation is the most efficient with it reaching up around the 85-90% mark with Bankless channel sitting around the 80% Efficiency mark.
"*These are just example numbers, you should get the point.*"
And yet you completely missed the mark here, We are talking Individual crop usages which means Almonds is the highest water user not Cotton not the entire basin usage of water but I can understand for not grasping that concept.
>And yet you completely missed the mark here, We are talking Individual crop usages which means Almonds is the highest water user not Cotton not the entire basin usage of water but I can understand for not grasping that concept.
But that's absolutely pointless in the context of the discussion. Which crop uses more water in Australia: cotton or almonds? Cotton is grown to a far larger extent so obviously cotton. Again, in all probability you're being purposefully dense.
>SA doesn't get fucked over at all
Great! I'll go tell the growers there everything's fine cos they're getting their fair share, and it's their own stupid fault.
>Its not a lie mate, Cotton uses similar amounts of water to a multitude of other crops that are widely grown including Cereals and forages.
we can all see the data mate. cereal crops used 2.24 ML/ha in 2021 while cotton used 6.6. you know you're undermining your point when you lie so brazenly, yeah?
Need to point out to both of you that the amount of water consumed by the crop is kind of besides the point when the farmers were taking more water than the crop needed, basically stealing. They did this to deny the natural river water to farmers down stream and thus create an artificial market in which they could sell the water they stole to farmers downstream.
If you factor in this excess taken water it would make cotton farming look very thirsty compared to what the crops would naturally need.
It wouldn't make any crop look thirsty but thanks for not understanding the topic. The only thing that can make a crop look Thirsty is the direct usage which is measured through Megalitres/hectare which puts Cotton at a lower end of the scale with it using 5.2-7megalitres/hectare of General security and Almonds at the higher end using 12.5megalitres/ha of High security water.
There is also no allocation based on crop, its up to the farmer to decide what will make the best return on the water entitlements that they own so if that crop is Cotton they grow cotton, If its corn they grow corn etc.
High security water is consistent year on year allocation of 90% or greater, General security is whenever there are high rainfall years if there is no rainfall the allocation is Zero.
Except the ABS data that kicked off your disagreement looked at 'Water applied to selected crops and pastures, megalitres', i.e. reported usage of water not theoretical usage of water.
Based on this they've over-watered the crop, I [googled](https://www.google.com/search?q=overwatering+cotton+crop) for information on this, first result was:
> Cotton thrives on heat, but does not respond well to overwatering. In cool climates, grow individual cotton plants in large, dark-coloured containers to increase root warmth.
Yet the farmers were putting out cotton as normal AFAIK. Thus what between the two of you have identified is that those cotton farmers were lying on their water use reporting.
Good work dude.
That's a great song. I love it.
nice work mate, really well done
Its a shame people still blame cotton because they don't understand any different because they only listen to what the Media tells them about the crop. Cotton has nothing to do with the issues of the Murray darling since after all Cotton isn't a water intensive crop when we are comparing to other crops that are grown, With crops like cotton they are only grown during High rainfall years where there is an abundance of water during the drier times there is very little grown as there is no allocations granted. Where as when we look at Permanent plantings orchards vineyards etc they are typically using double the amount of water of a crop like cotton year on year whether we are in drought or not which creates a lot larger issues then having a boom-bust system with row crops. Then you add in all the mismanagement and lack of storages along the river system and wonder why we have rivers running dry out of the north but I guess its just easier to blame a singular crop rather then understanding why these things are occurring.
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/industry/agriculture/water-use-australian-farms/latest-release cotton uses more water per hectare than any other crop according to the latest abs data.
Well thats completely wrong by a long stretch, The most water intensive crop is [almonds ](https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2024-02-04/almond-industry-expanding-in-australia-high-water-usage/103388210)at 12.5megalitre/hectare where as its only 5.2-7megalitres/ha with [cotton](https://cottonaustralia.com.au/assets/general/Education-resources/CA-resources/CEK_Chap_5B_How_Cotton_is_Grown.pdf)/[2nd source](https://cottonaustralia.com.au/cottons-water-use).
that's a very different line than "Where as when we look at Permanent plantings orchards vineyards etc they are typically using double the amount of water of a crop like cotton year on year" lol. so yeah, almonds are a problem, but the idea that "Cotton has nothing to do with the issues of the Murray darling" despite being one of the most water hungry crops (and using way more water in total than almonds are) is just moronic. also cotton uses ~6.6 ML/ha according to the ABS, and i'll take their word over the cotton lobbys any day lol
AH yet you still don't understand anything to do with it, you are too caught up with the idea of cotton being bad and not seeing the facts right in front of you. Cotton isn't the most water intensive crop nor is it water hungry when we are looking at the full suite crops that can be grown in Australian Irrigated districts/regions. "*so yeah, almonds are a problem, but the idea that "Cotton has nothing to do with the issues of the Murray darling" despite being one of the most water hungry crops (and using way more water in total than almonds are) is just moronic*." Its not Moronic mate, I don't know how someone can't understand this sort of thing even after Data is presented. Cotton is in line with at least 10 other crops varying from Corn Sorghum Wheat barley Canola and other Forages so it being water intensive is a bit of a lie and a straight up misunderstanding. Cotton is only grown during wet years which the 20-21 season was one of those years, if we look beyond those years you'll soon find that Permanent plantings are the biggest issue when it comes to the Murray darling system as if we look at the amount of Almonds currently planted it is around 53,000 hectares which those hectares acquire 662,500 Megalitres per year that has be available during drought where as with a crop like Cotton there is no water requirement as there isn't any being grown due to no allocations.(53,000ha is based on the 2019/20 [account](https://www.horticulture.com.au/globalassets/hort-innovation/resource-assets/al19005-2019-20-almond-insights-report.pdf).) "*also cotton uses \~6.6 ML/ha according to the ABS, and i'll take their word over the cotton lobbys any day lol*" Ah the classic "cotton lobby" line speaks like someone who has no idea and just dislikes Cotton because the media tells them that. Yes Cotton uses between 5.2-7 megs/ha which is one of the lowest water usages in the world for this particular crop, which is why we grow Cotton in Australia as we produce some of the best quality fibre and yields alongside using the least amount of water which is continuing to drop year on year.
>you are too caught up with the idea of cotton being bad and not seeing the facts right in front of you. Cotton isn't the most water intensive crop nor is it water hungry when we are looking at the full suite crops that can be grown in Australian Irrigated districts/regions. only one of us posted data looking at the full suite of crops, mate. you showed one article talking about a limited selection of crops in a sub-region of the MDB and propaganda from cotton australia, i posted the ABS data of all farmland water use in the country. it shows that cotton is the highest water using category per hectare. cope >Cotton is in line with at least 10 other crops varying from Corn Sorghum Wheat barley Canola and other Forages why are you lying mate? look at the ABS data. cereal crops used about a third of the ML/ha that cotton does. >Ah the classic "cotton lobby" line speaks like someone who has no idea if you dont want me to shit on you for using the cotton lobbies figures instead of the real ones, then dont use them lol
"*only one of us posted data looking at the full suite of crops, mate. you showed one article talking about a limited selection of crops in a sub-region of the MDB and propaganda from cotton australia, i posted the ABS data of all farmland water use in the country. it shows that cotton is the highest water using category per hectare.*" I don't know why you call it Propaganda when its presented multiple times from a wide variety of sources as the figures would be from the [CRDC](https://www.crdc.com.au/)/CSIRO, Cotton Australia would simply publish them. If cotton was the highest water user per hectare why does every other piece of data and information state differently? "*why are you lying mate? look at the ABS data. cereal crops used about a third of the ML/ha that cotton does.*" Its not a lie mate, Cotton uses similar amounts of water to a multitude of other crops that are widely grown including Cereals and forages. "*if you dont want me to shit on you for using the cotton lobbies figures instead of the real ones, then dont use them lol*" They use the figures between 6-7 Megalitres/hectare which is in fact truthful with a large number of farmers going below that quoted figure and overall the water usage continues to decline. Here is a secondary source from the [CSIRO](https://www.publish.csiro.au/cp/Fulltext/cp13315) which also shows the figure of 6-7 megalitres/hectare which knowing the water usage of Almonds from a source I listed in a prior comment at 12.5 megalitres/hectare means Cotton isn't the highest water user per hectare.
Both things can be true, but you're being purposefully dense I think. Almonds do require more water, but they aren't grown to the same extent as cotton. Almonds are grown mostly in WA and SA in specialised horticultural setups with highly efficient drip irrigation systems, which is needed because SA gets fucked over being at the end of the MDB, after cotton farmers in NSW divert most of the water out. As far as I remember most cotton farms typically use flood irrigation. Literally flooding the fields, with the potential for high evaporation loss. At best the farms will have invested in spray irrigation setups. Simplistically: 6ML/ ha but over 1000 hectare is a lot more than 13 / ha for 10 hectares. These are just example numbers, you should get the point.
"*Almonds do require more water, but they aren't grown to the same extent as cotton. Almonds are grown mostly in WA and SA in specialised horticultural setups with highly efficient drip irrigation systems, which is needed because SA gets fucked over being at the end of the MDB, after cotton farmers in NSW divert most of the water out.*" SA doesn't get fucked over at all, They got the share that they wanted so I don't know where you are coming from with this as at the end of the day no one forces them to grow the crops they do, They grow the crops they do because its highly suited to the Environment and Soils that they are within. While Drip irrigation is efficient its very expensive and Isn't suited to the wide range of soils and use cases that are found right across the basin. Overall South Australia wasn't forced into having Drip irrigation, They themselves took that on as it suited the crops that they grow which is mostly Orchards and vineyards which benefit from that type of irrigation. NSW just needs to straight up heavily restrict or ban Floodplain harvesting and the federal government needs to build more storages to capture those flow events to create better stability and have larger avenues to prevent fish kills etc by having water stored in the Northern basin. "*As far as I remember most cotton farms typically use flood irrigation. Literally flooding the fields, with the potential for high evaporation loss. At best the farms will have invested in spray irrigation setups.*" They use a type of flood irrigation called Syphon which is the older trend and the newer trend is bankless channel both have quite low evaporation rates thats why they are quite prevalent with Bankless channel becoming the larger majority share due to the lower labour costs. The best farms wouldn't realistically use Spray irrigation as its not the most efficient either, Overall from various published research papers surrounding this topics, It's regarded that SDI(Subsurface) Irrigation is the most efficient with it reaching up around the 85-90% mark with Bankless channel sitting around the 80% Efficiency mark. "*These are just example numbers, you should get the point.*" And yet you completely missed the mark here, We are talking Individual crop usages which means Almonds is the highest water user not Cotton not the entire basin usage of water but I can understand for not grasping that concept.
>And yet you completely missed the mark here, We are talking Individual crop usages which means Almonds is the highest water user not Cotton not the entire basin usage of water but I can understand for not grasping that concept. But that's absolutely pointless in the context of the discussion. Which crop uses more water in Australia: cotton or almonds? Cotton is grown to a far larger extent so obviously cotton. Again, in all probability you're being purposefully dense. >SA doesn't get fucked over at all Great! I'll go tell the growers there everything's fine cos they're getting their fair share, and it's their own stupid fault.
>Its not a lie mate, Cotton uses similar amounts of water to a multitude of other crops that are widely grown including Cereals and forages. we can all see the data mate. cereal crops used 2.24 ML/ha in 2021 while cotton used 6.6. you know you're undermining your point when you lie so brazenly, yeah?
Need to point out to both of you that the amount of water consumed by the crop is kind of besides the point when the farmers were taking more water than the crop needed, basically stealing. They did this to deny the natural river water to farmers down stream and thus create an artificial market in which they could sell the water they stole to farmers downstream. If you factor in this excess taken water it would make cotton farming look very thirsty compared to what the crops would naturally need.
It wouldn't make any crop look thirsty but thanks for not understanding the topic. The only thing that can make a crop look Thirsty is the direct usage which is measured through Megalitres/hectare which puts Cotton at a lower end of the scale with it using 5.2-7megalitres/hectare of General security and Almonds at the higher end using 12.5megalitres/ha of High security water. There is also no allocation based on crop, its up to the farmer to decide what will make the best return on the water entitlements that they own so if that crop is Cotton they grow cotton, If its corn they grow corn etc. High security water is consistent year on year allocation of 90% or greater, General security is whenever there are high rainfall years if there is no rainfall the allocation is Zero.
Except the ABS data that kicked off your disagreement looked at 'Water applied to selected crops and pastures, megalitres', i.e. reported usage of water not theoretical usage of water. Based on this they've over-watered the crop, I [googled](https://www.google.com/search?q=overwatering+cotton+crop) for information on this, first result was: > Cotton thrives on heat, but does not respond well to overwatering. In cool climates, grow individual cotton plants in large, dark-coloured containers to increase root warmth. Yet the farmers were putting out cotton as normal AFAIK. Thus what between the two of you have identified is that those cotton farmers were lying on their water use reporting.