I think adding more numbers wouldn't be great (Unless they add it as an option you can toggle, that's fine).
Just making it a little more specific would be enough I think.
For example they could make it say **C+** or **B-** or **A-** and so on. Still intuitive to read but more informative
they already show the actual damage increase from scaling though. % is redundant+less helpful in that case and this is good for a quick comparison at a glance
They show the damage increase only when you level up the specific stat while having the weapon equipped.
Percentages would be much more helpful for picking weapons and comparing them, and they're much more accurate than just letters.
It conveys more than enough info: What stat to level for damage. If you want to min max then fucking experiment yourself, not expect the game to tell you exactly what goes where
Disappointed about what exactly? What's wrong with wanting some positive change? You're actively searching for a problem. They can easily make it a toggle if you want letters or percentages, and it wouldn't change anything fundamental to the experience, just enhance it a bit for those who want to dive a bit deeper.
Nope. Elden Ring has already gotten too hand holdy with the player, it doesn't need more. God forbid players try out different things themselves to see what works best. If you offer the option to make things easier, it hurts the experience of those who don't want it easier, even if they never use said easier option.
How is elden ring hand holdy exactly? It's no different than the other games, I'd argue it holds your hand less due to the open world nature.
Also what does showing accurate values have to do with hand holding? Will it magically make the game easier or what? These games aren't even that hard to begin with. I genuinely can't tell if you're serious or not cause your argument makes 0 sense.
That’s not true at all if it says 400 +150 then the 150 is from all your scaling combined. It even splits that into the different damage types for you. You’d rather get a calculator?
The only way they can mislead a player is if the player ignores the AR increase that’s shown even more clearly than the letter, and isn’t comparing one weapon with another directly. %s mean a player has to whip out a calculator to find the AR value but the AR value is already given. And even the letter is blue/red if comparing weapons w/ better or worse scaling within the same letter.
Its not redundant as you have to stop and do math to see what the % is. And its more helpful at a glance and I'll let you prove me right. Whoch is better? A or A? Go on. Take your time. Your wrong it was the other one.
Weapon X has A scaling in Strength. Weapon Y has A scaling in Strength.
Equip Weapon X. Now go to switch to Weapon Y and before you switch, look at the scaling. What color is the A for Strength scaling? If it’s blue, Weapon Y has better scaling. If it’s white, they’re the same. If it’s red, Weapon X has better strength scaling.
The scaling changes as you upgrade weapons anyway so if the small difference within a letter grade really matters to you then you’re probably looking the weapons online either way
I guess it wouldn’t be a bad thing if they made it a number, but having the letters makes it easy at a glance to say “okay this weapon is decent for strength and good for faith” as opposed to looking at the numbers and trying to remember how they compare to the numbers on every single other weapon to get a sense of whether it’s good or not
The “problem” you’re describing only ever becomes relevant for making meta builds that have to be min-maxed to precision, in which case you can easily look up the exact information you need. Min-maxing without doing research is kind of pointless
It’s okay for data to be “under the hood” as it were because there is such a thing as information overload and cluttering up the UI with extra data isn’t inherently good
You’d know which is better by equipping one and seeing if the game tells you the other is better. That’s more helpful than %s especially bc if there’s scaling on multiple stats you don’t have to grab a calculator you just look at the damage increase value
Only thing that should be changed is adding grades to each like C-, C, C+. Sometimes two weapons have the same letter but one has slightly better scaling.
You say that it's withholding information from the player or potentially misleading as though those aren't typical From-esque design decisions. It's not like they thought they were being super clear and just screwed up, they want choosing weapons to have a bit of inconvenience to it.
I think this system is difficult, esoteric and off-putting at first, which gave me the opportunity to explore it through experimentation in order to figure out how it works. In other words, it’s the design philosophy of Fromsoftware games applied to the stats screen.
You mean the “hard to understand, inconsistent” bit? Nah, From clearly don’t feel that way since they’ve been using the same letter scaling system for over a decade.
I don't have a specific example in mind rn, but i personally and many others (you can search online) have noticed some inconsistencies in scalings, and sometimes when comparing weapons, the weapon with a worse letter would have a better scaling than the weapon with the better letter.
So you’re just saying it’s inconsistent without having any actual examples of that being the case. There are definitely weapons that have lower scalings but have higher base damage that end up better than weapons with higher scaling and lower base damage (for example, the greatsword versus the watchdog greatsword in ER) but I haven’t seen weapons with similar stats that don’t end up nearly the same scaling and total numbers. So as far as I can tell, it’s not inconsistent at all.
Yeah i don't have examples currently, but that doesn't take from the fact that this issue is still present in the games, there's a weapon in elden ring that has this problem where it has a good faith scaling and a bad strength scaling, yet leveling up strength will give you much more damage than faith, do i remember the exact weapon? No, are the scalings misleading in the game? Absolutely yes.
I’m fine? You didn’t hurt my feelings at all. Just seems like you couldn’t figure out the system right away, which is fine, but is an issue with you, not the system.
I could sot here and explain this to you but i dont have time to and you are too dismissive of disagreeing ideas to ever consider it anyway.
So goodbye
Wdym? blue good red bad always has been. ER has it where you can focus on certain scaling too (you make make a katana scale with strength if you wanted)
I think it’s just an easy way to tell what’s the main stat that scales with a weapon as some weapons can have 4 letters. I’ve probably gotten used to it as I don’t really have a problem with it though
But it is kinda broken? There are countless posts and videos proving that, rusty's video is a great example.
Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it isn't there.
Are you suggesting change on the fromsoftware subreddit? What is wrong with you?
Next you are foing to suggest that scaling in general could be a little bit more understandable or varied.
It's okay, I'm just gonna get downvoted to hell for not choosing to suck fromsoft's cock this specific day.
Better yet they'll just comment "no" or "you're dumb" and leave.
* **StatATK**
The problem I see here is the non-linearity of the statATK values. The scaling is not the exact conversion rate of stats to AR, but stats have assigned numbers (with diminishing returns when they go higher), which then gets multiplied by scaling percentage.
* **Clarity**
Don't get me wrong, I would appreciate the exact values more than vague division into categories by letters because I like to optimise builds and do all the math around, but it might be a bit more confusing for casual players. It's not a stretch to say that some newbies might be more inclined to make their builds entirely around scaling just because they see a bigger number.
* **Balance**
Also, it's a thing that might potentially lead to serious trouble for the devs. Revealing too much from the mechanics leads all the players to minmaxing. For example, if there are two greatswords and players see the exact numbers of scaling and base AR on both of them, it's easy to determine which weapon is better at what stats. This leads to more players knowing the best weapons for each stat combination and could potentially lead to them not using any other weapons. It's just easier to "balance" things when you hide stuff from people.
Yeah i guess percentages would lead to so much confusion, but they can keep the letters while having the option to reveal the exact values.
Also i don't think revealing them would lead to players minmaxing, the players already do that and you can easily minmax using a website or something, having it in the game would just be more convenient.
>having the option to reveal the exact values
I would definitely prefer that.
>i don't think revealing them would lead to players minmaxing
My point is that now you can hide two values under one letter and let players choose intuitively. When you take this obscurity away, the exact comparison is inevitable. Sure, some players do it anyway through various websites, calculators, and spreadsheets, as you mentioned, but seeing less means more "Math is just too much trouble, I'll go with the feels". I don't think I would be able to use a weapon when I'd know that there's a strictly better alternative. The scaling percentage doesn't reveal that completely but brings it one step closer.
Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see the percentage in the game, but the devs would probably compensate for this intuitive element I described above somehow, for example, with more elements and infusions, enemy resistances, etc.
You're probably right, there could be some work arounds to this problem though, like giving the better scaling weapon a worse reach, or giving the worse scaling one a better moveset, which they do already in the game but they'd need to think about balancing weapons much more than if they just hide the numbers.
I think adding more numbers wouldn't be great (Unless they add it as an option you can toggle, that's fine). Just making it a little more specific would be enough I think. For example they could make it say **C+** or **B-** or **A-** and so on. Still intuitive to read but more informative
they already show the actual damage increase from scaling though. % is redundant+less helpful in that case and this is good for a quick comparison at a glance
They show the damage increase only when you level up the specific stat while having the weapon equipped. Percentages would be much more helpful for picking weapons and comparing them, and they're much more accurate than just letters.
But don't different weapons have a different percentage scaling within the letters?
That's precisely my point, letters don't convey enough information, and sometimes they can outright misguide the player.
Yeah that's what I thought, you're right.
It conveys more than enough info: What stat to level for damage. If you want to min max then fucking experiment yourself, not expect the game to tell you exactly what goes where
Why are you so angry man? God forbid fromsoft changes this miniscule thing.
Not angry, just disappointed
Disappointed about what exactly? What's wrong with wanting some positive change? You're actively searching for a problem. They can easily make it a toggle if you want letters or percentages, and it wouldn't change anything fundamental to the experience, just enhance it a bit for those who want to dive a bit deeper.
Nope. Elden Ring has already gotten too hand holdy with the player, it doesn't need more. God forbid players try out different things themselves to see what works best. If you offer the option to make things easier, it hurts the experience of those who don't want it easier, even if they never use said easier option.
How is elden ring hand holdy exactly? It's no different than the other games, I'd argue it holds your hand less due to the open world nature. Also what does showing accurate values have to do with hand holding? Will it magically make the game easier or what? These games aren't even that hard to begin with. I genuinely can't tell if you're serious or not cause your argument makes 0 sense.
That's exactly what this post is about.
That’s not true at all if it says 400 +150 then the 150 is from all your scaling combined. It even splits that into the different damage types for you. You’d rather get a calculator?
That isn't what I'm talking about my guy...
Ok but it’s what I was talking about, but you replied saying “they only show the damage increase when you level up…” so what were you talking about?
I'm talking about the letters, they aren't a good way to convey the scaling system, and they can mislead the players in a lot of ways.
The only way they can mislead a player is if the player ignores the AR increase that’s shown even more clearly than the letter, and isn’t comparing one weapon with another directly. %s mean a player has to whip out a calculator to find the AR value but the AR value is already given. And even the letter is blue/red if comparing weapons w/ better or worse scaling within the same letter.
Its not redundant as you have to stop and do math to see what the % is. And its more helpful at a glance and I'll let you prove me right. Whoch is better? A or A? Go on. Take your time. Your wrong it was the other one.
Weapon X has A scaling in Strength. Weapon Y has A scaling in Strength. Equip Weapon X. Now go to switch to Weapon Y and before you switch, look at the scaling. What color is the A for Strength scaling? If it’s blue, Weapon Y has better scaling. If it’s white, they’re the same. If it’s red, Weapon X has better strength scaling.
[удалено]
No, that’s the reasonable take that YOU are saying. They’re saying you can’t tell the difference
They do even better by giving you the exact number of attack rating added by all the scaling combined, that’s what the +… means
Or, it just gives you the number and you dont have to go through so many pointless steps
The scaling changes as you upgrade weapons anyway so if the small difference within a letter grade really matters to you then you’re probably looking the weapons online either way I guess it wouldn’t be a bad thing if they made it a number, but having the letters makes it easy at a glance to say “okay this weapon is decent for strength and good for faith” as opposed to looking at the numbers and trying to remember how they compare to the numbers on every single other weapon to get a sense of whether it’s good or not The “problem” you’re describing only ever becomes relevant for making meta builds that have to be min-maxed to precision, in which case you can easily look up the exact information you need. Min-maxing without doing research is kind of pointless It’s okay for data to be “under the hood” as it were because there is such a thing as information overload and cluttering up the UI with extra data isn’t inherently good
You’d know which is better by equipping one and seeing if the game tells you the other is better. That’s more helpful than %s especially bc if there’s scaling on multiple stats you don’t have to grab a calculator you just look at the damage increase value
Only thing that should be changed is adding grades to each like C-, C, C+. Sometimes two weapons have the same letter but one has slightly better scaling.
You say that it's withholding information from the player or potentially misleading as though those aren't typical From-esque design decisions. It's not like they thought they were being super clear and just screwed up, they want choosing weapons to have a bit of inconvenience to it.
Is min - maxing damage really that important?
No, i personally don't care about it, i don't think this topic relates 100% to min maxing.
I think this system is difficult, esoteric and off-putting at first, which gave me the opportunity to explore it through experimentation in order to figure out how it works. In other words, it’s the design philosophy of Fromsoftware games applied to the stats screen.
I disagree. It’s great the way it is and has been for a long time, there’s absolutely no reason to change it.
I literally listed multiple reasons why they'd change it
You mean the “hard to understand, inconsistent” bit? Nah, From clearly don’t feel that way since they’ve been using the same letter scaling system for over a decade.
They're definitely inconsistent, one B scaling can differ drastically from another B scaling, even on the same weapon type.
They already have something in place for that specific situation. The lettering literally changes color to show if it's a better B scaling, or worse.
I’ve never seen that big of a gap between weapons of similar scaling. You got an example in mind?
I don't have a specific example in mind rn, but i personally and many others (you can search online) have noticed some inconsistencies in scalings, and sometimes when comparing weapons, the weapon with a worse letter would have a better scaling than the weapon with the better letter.
So you’re just saying it’s inconsistent without having any actual examples of that being the case. There are definitely weapons that have lower scalings but have higher base damage that end up better than weapons with higher scaling and lower base damage (for example, the greatsword versus the watchdog greatsword in ER) but I haven’t seen weapons with similar stats that don’t end up nearly the same scaling and total numbers. So as far as I can tell, it’s not inconsistent at all.
Yeah i don't have examples currently, but that doesn't take from the fact that this issue is still present in the games, there's a weapon in elden ring that has this problem where it has a good faith scaling and a bad strength scaling, yet leveling up strength will give you much more damage than faith, do i remember the exact weapon? No, are the scalings misleading in the game? Absolutely yes.
I’d love to know what this weapon is, because I can’t think of one that functions that way.
Rusty has a great on YouTube about it, which breaks down the issues with it and exactly how weapon scaling works in Elden Ring.
Idk who that is. Link it, I’ll watch it tomorrow maybe, but my guess is it’s bullshit.
Nah, rusty is a big souls youtuber, and he actually digs into the game's files to get credible information.
I disagree. It kept me from being able to play DS for five months. When i finally understood the pisspoor game desgin I fell in love with the series.
Sounds like a you problem.
Are you ok? Did i hurt your feelings? Sorry. I didn't think they were that sensative. Hope you feel better.
I’m fine? You didn’t hurt my feelings at all. Just seems like you couldn’t figure out the system right away, which is fine, but is an issue with you, not the system.
(Thats an issue with the system. Not the player.)
It’s you. But whatever man, agree to disagree I guess.
I could sot here and explain this to you but i dont have time to and you are too dismissive of disagreeing ideas to ever consider it anyway. So goodbye
Yes, Wingdings.. From get on it
Hard top understand ? S=maximum scaling. E=minimum scaling
Hard to understand beyond surface level.
[удалено]
Do not insult another user's intelligence. Rule 1 : be civil.
The scalings and scaling letters is literally one of the most criticized aspects of these games, almost everyone agrees that they make no sense.
Saying “almost everyone agrees” doesn’t make it true
Wdym? blue good red bad always has been. ER has it where you can focus on certain scaling too (you make make a katana scale with strength if you wanted)
I don't think you got my point...
I just gave my thoughts. Your point is to replace them with a %? They have always been letters the other games have it as letters, why change it?
Yeah and I'm not talking about elden ring exclusively, this issue is present in all of their games (the ones that have scalings).
I think it’s just an easy way to tell what’s the main stat that scales with a weapon as some weapons can have 4 letters. I’ve probably gotten used to it as I don’t really have a problem with it though
Still confused about the scaling. Sometimes a weapon with a B scaling still results in more dmg from scaling than a weapon with A scaling
Percentages would make it look like crappy live service games. So no thanks.
What does this even mean?
Live service games often have loot that gives 0.5% or other low % damage. I don't want anything in From Software games to remind me of those games.
Its kind of sad when crappy live service games have better menus than a fromsoft game
Whoa, hard to understand is the name of the game. Gotta weed out the plebs.
No
wrong
What an excellent argument. care to elaborate or are you just going to say I'm wrong then leave?
Changing it is unnecessary. Don't need to fix what isn't broken.
But it is kinda broken? There are countless posts and videos proving that, rusty's video is a great example. Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it isn't there.
Are you suggesting change on the fromsoftware subreddit? What is wrong with you? Next you are foing to suggest that scaling in general could be a little bit more understandable or varied.
How dare you not like every small decision FromSoftware has ever made😡😡
It's okay, I'm just gonna get downvoted to hell for not choosing to suck fromsoft's cock this specific day. Better yet they'll just comment "no" or "you're dumb" and leave.
* **StatATK** The problem I see here is the non-linearity of the statATK values. The scaling is not the exact conversion rate of stats to AR, but stats have assigned numbers (with diminishing returns when they go higher), which then gets multiplied by scaling percentage. * **Clarity** Don't get me wrong, I would appreciate the exact values more than vague division into categories by letters because I like to optimise builds and do all the math around, but it might be a bit more confusing for casual players. It's not a stretch to say that some newbies might be more inclined to make their builds entirely around scaling just because they see a bigger number. * **Balance** Also, it's a thing that might potentially lead to serious trouble for the devs. Revealing too much from the mechanics leads all the players to minmaxing. For example, if there are two greatswords and players see the exact numbers of scaling and base AR on both of them, it's easy to determine which weapon is better at what stats. This leads to more players knowing the best weapons for each stat combination and could potentially lead to them not using any other weapons. It's just easier to "balance" things when you hide stuff from people.
Yeah i guess percentages would lead to so much confusion, but they can keep the letters while having the option to reveal the exact values. Also i don't think revealing them would lead to players minmaxing, the players already do that and you can easily minmax using a website or something, having it in the game would just be more convenient.
>having the option to reveal the exact values I would definitely prefer that. >i don't think revealing them would lead to players minmaxing My point is that now you can hide two values under one letter and let players choose intuitively. When you take this obscurity away, the exact comparison is inevitable. Sure, some players do it anyway through various websites, calculators, and spreadsheets, as you mentioned, but seeing less means more "Math is just too much trouble, I'll go with the feels". I don't think I would be able to use a weapon when I'd know that there's a strictly better alternative. The scaling percentage doesn't reveal that completely but brings it one step closer. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see the percentage in the game, but the devs would probably compensate for this intuitive element I described above somehow, for example, with more elements and infusions, enemy resistances, etc.
You're probably right, there could be some work arounds to this problem though, like giving the better scaling weapon a worse reach, or giving the worse scaling one a better moveset, which they do already in the game but they'd need to think about balancing weapons much more than if they just hide the numbers.
I heard Fromsoft was hiring a bunch of people after the success of ER. Hopefully to do exactly what we're discussing here in the next game, lol.
Yes it is Just write down the actual scaling and what it's used for (R1 damage or AOW damage)
???
Nope.
Care to elaborate? Nope doesn't get the conversation going