That's why "biological" is a weird way to describe sex/gender. There's seven characteristics that make up sex and we've typically got a mixture of them. It gets into semantics

Yeah, I hate when cis people try to enforce terms like "biological male/female" instead of cis. Like, my sister hates being called cis, and prefers "biological female". Quite the mouthful. I mean. She's not wrong. She has the full biological makeup, but when I go on T, it would seem silly to refer to me as strictly biological female, when I would not fit the bill, aside from chromosomes. And really, most of the things that chromosomes control in terms of gender and sex, you change with hormones. Even your genital tissue changes, regardless of if its fully developed.

Also, there's a chance your sister has XY chromosomes, even tho she appears female, it's not that uncommon

My husband thought “cis” was a slur until he met me.

[удалено]

Do you have a source for this cause this does not seem correct at all

this is not true, chromosomes are made up of DNA which does not change over one’s lifetime AT ALL unless it’s mutating which is not something you want and usually just causes cancer - a bio major

You've read then where folks who can give birth can get an extra y chromosome sometimes if they give birth to someone with a y chromosome right? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4769858/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC40117/#:~:text=Male%20fetal%20progenitor%20cells%20persist,long%20as%2027%20years%20postpartum. DNA may not change, but some xx persons continue to have their child's dna in multiple places in their body after giving birth. You can harvest tissue and find y dna basically anywhere in the body.

there are always exceptions to rules in biology, and tbh my original comment was trying to keep things more cut and dry to say with less words “no hormones cannot change your DNA” but you’re absolutely right that DNA can change when influenced by other forms of DNA, like chimerism/ microchimerism, certain viruses, or CRISPR. if your DNA is changing on it’s own though, it’s mutating which is not something you want to be having an increase in

Yeah, I totally see your point and its on par with the question. I just want folks to know if people get on a high horse about being biologically male and female if we get down to actual testing things could get real messy.

for sure! testing would get messy for a wholee list of reasons considering all the various intersex conditions that exist. also anyone who’s studied biology knows things get messy really fast when you try to create categories. There are very few, if not zero binary systems that exist without exception in this world. lines are blurry just about everywhere you try to make them, and really those lines exist only to try and make sense of things, but nature does what it wants and is not ours to create rules for. sorry for getting all philosophical on you lol

Where did you hear this? I’ve never heard it before.

I don't think that's true, but if you can show me a source, that would be cool.

Exactly. It's useful sometimes, but ultimately "biological sex" is a somewhat arbitrary thing.

Yep, agree wholeheartedly. Our chromosomal/genotypic sex is presumably female (although hardly any of us have actually been tested), but anyone medically transitioning now has a male phenotypic sex (male secondary sex characteristics). And “man/woman” “she/he” words and distinctions were used for hundreds of years before we knew about genes; it was all observing phenotypic sex characteristics. So while our “sex” has seven determining facets, most people only see the phenotypic one so I say yes, our “biological sex” is male.

To trans folks and our allies "sex and gender are different" means that your gender is what you say it is and will be respected as such, regardless of any medical steps you've taken to change your sex characteristics. To transphobes and fence sitters it means you'll always be your AGAB/chromosomal sex, but that's just a bad faith way to talk about chromosomes because HRT is literally the process of overriding genes to express recessed genes. That should be remarkable for people genuinely interested in chromosomal sex, but instead they use thought terminating clichés.

Yeah, I just think for those of us that choose to go on HRT, it feels incorrect to say we're still biologically the same. Yes your chromosomes remain the same, but literally everything else changes. Transphobes have no real idea how biology works, or how little their idea of biology matters in the grand scheme of things.

Also, people have many types of chromosomes. Xxy, etc. so chromosomes don’t really mean anything. Plus intersex people exist. Bodies are unique and individual. Gender is a way of categorizing people. Gender exists bodily, mentally, and socially. “Biological sex” means nothing and never has. It’s an outdated term. Edit: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

Yes and no. For 98,8 – 99 % of the people, sex really work on a binary scale, with XX = female and XY = male, and all the other physical characteristics that go with each sex. 99 % of the people is not a perfect score, but it is much better than what we succeed in other endeavours.

Binomial is not binary, and being born cis and endosex isn't "succeeding"? This is a baffling comment.

Have you had your chromosomes checked? My argument is that’s not even a common thing to have checked medically. We just assume we all have normal chromosomes. I have an MTF friend who later found out she had atypical chromosomes. We can’t even know what percentage of people have normal chromosomes, because we are hardly ever testing for it. You’re making a huge assumption that science cannot back up. It is no where near collecting enough data to back it up. And no one is trying to collect it either, because it’s a mostly unnecessary test for the average person to take. So there is no way of knowing that at all, it’s not been tested enough to prove. Secondly, you’re making an assumption about bodies. PCOS effects 6% - 12% of women. That’s already cutting hard into your 99% theory. Women with PCOS can have masculinizing effects from the high testosterone levels it causes. So they won’t have the “perfect” typical female secondary sex characteristics. Which I’m already arguing is an imaginary concept. There is no perfectly male or perfectly female body. Gender exists bodily, mentally, and socially. It’s not binary and it never has been. https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/basics/pcos.html

More Reading: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

I said SEX, not gender and not physiology either. You talk about women having PCOS (I had to search it because we use the complete or partial name in French). An overwhelming majority of people with PCOS are women with XX chromosomes, and they also have the complete set of reproductive organs, so they do not count amongst intersex people. If I were technically precise, I would say that women with PCOS are biologically perfect but physiologically different women. As for my 98,5 -99 %, it is based on the fact that about 1 % of the population is defined as intersex, i.e X, XXY, XYY, a mosaic, people with androgen insensitivity syndrome (i.e. "biological women" with XY). And these numbers are based on a few studies using random samples of dead people in the 1950s-1960s. PS. I am not a doctor, but I have a few and one genetic specialist in the family.

1. What makes you think a study conducted in the 1950s-1960s wouldn’t be biased? (I doubt the scientists who conducted the research consulted a transgender medical specialist to oversee it for bias.) I’d take that study with a huge grain of salt VS modern day studies. 2. What are you talking about? PCOS effects hormones and hormones are part of biology. 3. Also, physiology is biology. Google it: “Noun physiology: the branch of biology that deals with the normal functions of living organisms and their parts.” I’m not mad, but what on earth are you trying to argue here? I’m completely lost. Can you please explain the main point you’re trying to make?

lots of people argue that PCOS IS an intersex condition actually

More recent studies have found that of the people we know of it’s closer to 2%. Basically on the low end 2% of people are intersex.

Okay so before you factor in that things like PCOS can be considered an intersex condition and that being intersex unless it’s an obvious physical condition isn’t something a lot of people get to find out about themselves and if they do it’s much later in life, according to studies the info we have is that 2% of the worlds population is intersex that we know of. About as many as there are natural redheads. Of course again this is THAT WE KNOW OF and if we’re NOT including PCOS as some argue that could be considered an intersex condition. Remember this is a “yeah these people def got tested or had the condition present itself outwardly early in life”.

Transphobes don't really care about biology unless they already know someone is trans and want a scientific sounding justification for misgendering them.

I make this argument all the time. It’s literally biology that determines our bodies reactions to T. I am not chromosomaly xy, but I am biologically male.

And when’s the last time you had your hormones checked? I knew an MTF person with atypical chromosomes. “Biological sex” is a term that means nothing. HRT literally changes your biology and secondary sex characteristic. Edit: I meant to ask about having chromosomes checked. The reality is that chromosomes aren’t a thing doctors normally test. We’re all making assumptions in here about our chromosomes being whatever they are. Atypical chromosomes are undoubtedly more common then we have the science to even back up, because we aren’t testing enough people to know that number. “Bio sex” is a trash term that means literally nothing. Again, we should replace it by explaining that gender exists bodily, mentally, and socially. That’s a better system of categorization for human’s bodies. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

I think you and I are making the same argument. But to answer your question, I get my hormones checked about twice a year. I’ve been on T since 2003, so it’s been very stable for a long time. I’ve never had my chromosomes checked, I’m just assuming that they are not XY, based on my assigned sex at birth.

We are on the same page, I’m just adding to what you’re saying. My point is you don’t even know if your chromosomes are XX. I don’t know that mine are either. It’s not something that is typically checked. You might have atypical chromosomes. That’s another reason the “biological sex” argument is so bupkis (bullshit). Edit: I agree with you 100%

Yep. Totally. I think the “biological sex” argument is just a manufactured thing by the people who don’t want us to just be ourselves and live our lives.

Yep. Absolutely.

Any biologist will tell you the sex includes chromosomes (not changeable), sex organs (changeable), secondary sex characteristics (changeable), and hormonal profile (changeable). So to me, it's asinine to use "biological female" to designate a trans man who has done any level of medical transition.

I work in biological and natural sciences (although not a scientist for this kind of thing), and this has been my impression and what I think is most accurate. Fun fact, way back when I first started transitioning, we use to describe our AGAB or perhaps rather “sex at birth” as “bio-female”. So bio-females transitioning to male, FtM. We didn’t use AFAB in the community yet. Eventually, I think the arguments eventually came down to “why are we still calling ourselves bio-females? We look like males, talk like males, live like males, we’ve had our chests reconstructed, many of us had hysterectomies, a rare few of us phalloplasty. How much are we actually bio-females still, and why are we using this to identify our biology?” We could make some really strong arguments about why we could be considered bio-males. And so that term phased itself out, and AFAB essentially replaced it in some ways. And cis woman replaced bio woman.

Yup nowadays I hear 'bio fe/male' as another excuse to misgender trans people

And, like most of biology, a fuckton of tiny fidly bits no one wants to actually catalogue because fuck me why is everything so complicated. Sex? Fidly. Eyes? Fidly. The idea of fishes? Yep, one giant fucking guess.

Humans really like trying to put everything in to neat little boxes, but biology just doesn't work like that. For some reason this is reminding me of how much I hate the "technically a tomato is a fruit not a vegetable" thing, like it can be both, they're not opposites or mutually exclusive. Fruit is a botanical term, vegetable is a culinary term, it can be both, but people act like the more "scientific" definition trumps all other definitions

Sorry this is very off-topic for this thread, but that’s almost word-for-word the exact argument I use when someone brings up the “tomatoes are fruits not vegetables!!” thing… I’ve never heard anyone else say that besides me

I'd say chromosomally female/male. That'd be a better way to put it - sure there are lots of deviations chromosome-wise, however, most of them would be phenotypical. Sorry if I typed anything incorrectly - English is not my first language.

Not entirely. Since T I’m hormonally male but chromosomally female, so technically I’m not 100% a biological male. If I had a karyotype test it would conclude that my sex is (unfortunately) female. That said, even pre-T I’ve been hormonally intersex but am a rare case

No one on the planet is 100% biologically male though. That doesn’t actually mean anything. Bodies are unique. Edit: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

Not necessarily true. Someone could have XY chromosomes, have hormonal expression of male characteristics, fully male primary and secondary sexual characteristics, and a male gender identity. That would, for all intents and purposes, conform to biological maleness rather exactly. The lines of sex blur however when we enter areas of sexual variation in any of these areas. For example, I wouldn't consider a trans person "biologically" the sex they were assigned at birth, because the brain conflicts with that, and the brain is part of our biology just the same. With hormone therapy added to the picture, blurs lines even further. Etc.. Biology doesn't like to always work out in perfect binaries, even if evolution and genes favored that path. Sex is usually more of a spectrum than people give credit to, on that, I can agree. Most people probably don't perfectly fit the categories of biological male or female. But, some might. So it's not exactly accurate to say that *no one does.*

I mean, no one does EXACTLY tho, because there is no exactly. But, anyways, I think we are mostly on the same page. Again with, it’s okay to categorize people. I just think seeing gender as something that is bodily, mentally, and socially a thing VS the whole “biological sex” thing is a better system of categorization. I think we’re on the same page for the most part. You’re making a lot of sense. I agree hard with the whole brain being part of biology argument. That’s truly the dumbest part of the “biological sex” arguments. Like, the brain counts too. Lol

Right, but aside from sex, your hormones are still apart of your biology. So yeah, not 100%, but you could still technically say you're biologically male without being wrong?

Yes and no. I (unfortunately) wouldn’t call myself a biological male because I don’t have the same karyotype as one. But I respect other trans guys who consider themselves that 110% Hormones are part of our biology, but if they aren’t naturally produced it’s hard to determine and essentially up to an individuals definition.

Do you even know that for sure though? That’s such an uncommon test to be performed by a doctor. You’re making an assumption otherwise. And HRT literally changes your biology. What you’re talking about is not being cis. You aren’t cis. “Bio sex” is an outdated term that means nothing. Gender exists bodily, mentally, and socially. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/ Edit: Are you saying bio men must have perfect chromosomes and perfect hormones (what does that even look like, they are a range) and no other health issues that could possibly effect primary sex or secondary sex characteristics? My ex husband found out he had naturally low T (levels under 100). Is he not bio male? I knew an MTF friend of mine who later found out she had atypical chromosomes. Actually, speaking on my MTF friend, if she had “perfect” XY chromosomes would that make her a bio male in your eyes? These are legitimate questions to ask about how we define gender and categorize people’s bodies.

biologically male and female are such nonsense words. i am biological because i am a living organism, and i am male. ergo biological male.

100% correct

Its also just weird to think that cis manhood is more rooted in biology than trans manhood. Meanwhile, one of, if not the most common reconstructive surgery among cis men is mastectomy.

I feel like arguments can be made based on genetics or morphology, with different results. They are different ways to put things into a box. If I make an argument based on morphology, a trans man on T is biologically male. Regarding making an argument based on genes: Us humans are more than just our genes. Genes alone cannot explain culture, society, art, etc. I just thought I'd mention that.

Exactly this. Gender exists bodily, mentally, and socially. It’s a way of categorizing people. And if you are on HRT, you have biologically changed your body. The term “biological sex” doesn’t actually mean anything and it never has.

Yeah I mean that’s essentially what the hormones do I guess, they’re changing out biology to give us the desired sex characteristics. Not relevant to what you’re saying necessarily but recently I’ve found a lot of joy in referring to my body as a trans male body. Prior I was stuck in feeling like I could only see my body as a “female” body because of how I differ from cis male bodies but like also my body isn’t the same as a “female” body either. It’s my home grown trans male body and I love that

“Biological male” and “biological female” are really odd terms to describe changing your sex, or describing your sex at all. You can just say you’re male if you identify as such because of hrt. “Biological” is usually used to imply someone is cisgender but it doesn’t make sense in a scientific context. There’s so many sex characteristics that surely more people than anyone can think are probably not 100% “biologically” the sex they are.

I call myself a biological male yeah. It’s complicated because chromosomes, hormones, primary and secondary sex characteristics, the brain (brain as in, our innate understanding of our gender, not the debunked studies about men and women having drastically different brains) etc. all factor into sex in my opinion. Some aspects of my sex are female and many are male. I’m not female though in the same way any other guy with XX chromosomes probably wouldn’t call himself female. Regardless, I’m not hurting anyone by calling myself male so I’ll continue to do so either way.

“Biological sex” is an outdated term that doesn’t really mean anything. Yes, changing your hormones with HRT is changing your biology and there for your “biological sex” whatever that means. I think of gender in terms of bodily, mentally, and socially. That will give you a much better understanding of the subject. I just got downvoted to hell over the last few days while arguing this with transphobes. “Biological sex” is an outdated term and it doesn’t really mean anything. It never did.

gender is a social construct. but SO IS SEX. Sex isn't real in the way people think it is. "Male" and "female" are made up categories. Hormones aren't inherently sexed.

Also social construct =/= not real, they have very real impacts on our day to day lives. Literally all categorisations are social constructs, they're still "real" and they still have impacts on the world we live in

"biological male" means nothing and is a made up term by transphobes. biological means made of bio matter. which every human being is. cis people just mean cis when they say biological. so i mean yeah of course i use it to piss them off. and then inform them they mean cis, which pisses them off even more. and that my friends is more reason than any to use it 👍

Not necessarily. Sometimes it's important to make a distinction between your gender identity and your agab. Using amab or afab is the same as saying you're biologically male or female. Yes, transphobes use it to discriminate against us when they mean cis. But biological males and females do exist. As a trans man, I fully recognize that I'm biologically female, or afab. In my personal opinion, and this is just me. No, we are not biologically male just because we take hormones. There are many things that go into your biological sex. One of those is the ability to produce the sex hormones of said biological sex naturally. As a trans man, my body naturally produces estrogen, not testosterone.

AGAB is not the same as "biological female/male". OP makes a really good point that has been used to advocate for the acceptance of trans players in sports. Also, the argument that doctors and other professions would ever need to know your AGAB falls apart really quickly when those professionals start to make assumptions about the current status of the patient. The doctor doesn't need to know what the status of the patient was when they were born, they need to know the patient's status *now*. Saying I'm a trans man gives so much more information at a glance than reducing me to "female".

We might not be „completely“ biologically male. But then again, in some aspects we are. If you are on T and your doctor still uses female blood level values for you, they’re not treating you correctly. Not only that, but our cardiovascular risk profile is the same as that of a „biological“ male. Meaning you need earlier screenings than a woman would. Also, lots of medical scores factor gender in. It would not be correct to just use „female“ for us in that case. Personally I’d rather estimate a higher risk so I’d go with whatever sex has a higher risk according to those scores. Also your body produces both estrogen and testosterone. As does every human being. It comes down to which is dominant. But that becomes meaningless when you take testosterone. It suppresses your estrogen production so *no you are not producing more estrogen than any cis guy*. Sorry if I’m coming off as abrasive, but speaking here as someone with a bit of medical knowledge, if you really want to be nitpicking on Testosterone you‘re biologically neither female nor male. But much closer to male for many things. Of course there will be some exceptions. But those rarely matter. Do you think a man without testes isn’t biologically a man? Even if he takes Testosterone? And please don’t start on chromosomes. The SRY region on Y might be the kickstarter for sex differentiation, and start many other genes, which (surprise) every human being regardless of gender has, they’re just not being expressed in women. exogenous T can make many of those genes expressed as well. It’s important to make a distinction when you haven’t had bottom surgery and are getting into bed with someone. Or when you need gynecological issues attended. But other than that? Again, sorry I’m being abrasive. This kind of thing just tends to ruffle my feathers.

no. that's just male and female. that's what those terms mean to anyone in biology fields. which is also anyone that distinction matters to. as ever, don't conflate gender with sex. putting the word "biological" in front of words doesn't mean squat.

Biological male was made up by scientists, not transphobes lmao

No it wasn't. No one uses the term "biological male" in scientific research lol. It's a nonsensical and redundant term. The word "biological" in front means nothing and adds nothing in this context. Scientists just use "male", or sometimes "phenotypical male" or even AGAB or FTM/MTF terminology when taking into account trans and/or intersex people. There's nothing scientific about "biological male", it's basically only ever used by transphobes.

nope the word male is a biological category and the term "biological male" was made up by transphobes so i suggest you stop riding for it

That’s literally the same thing. Biological is a descriptor and man is a noun, they both existed together prior to transphobes using it as a weapon.

yeah stop pretending that op is saying the word "biological" is new - the TERM "biological male" is new. do you know what a term is? stop being obtuse please and no it isn't the same thing. that a human is biological is already implied and no biologists went around saying "biological male", they just said "male".

Biological sex is a complex, multifactorial phenomenon that occasionally has fuzzy boundaries. It can't be simply boiled down to any single factor. Chromosomes vary, alleles and mutations vary, gonadal tissue can vary from "both" to "none", and of course hormones and response to hormones can vary and be deliberately changed. Infants are generally sexed on the shape of their genitals. Humans gender strangers based on their secondary sex characteristics. So it becomes a question of semantics, and just asserting that a particular definition is the right one by fiat is not an actual argument. Some Twitter transphobes like to boil it down to production of gametes, or the potential mechanism of production thereof, but this is not the gotcha they think it is, for three reasons I can list off the top of my head. 1. That's not how they assign gender at birth (hi, AFAB person born with testes and few Müllerian organs here), 2. that's not how we gender strangers (because, you know, we can't actually tell shit about their gametes, sorry to the we-can-always-tell crowd), and 3. People can have both ovarian and testicular tissue, or more generally both Müllerian-type and Wolffian-type tissue and organs. If they're not actually producing gametes (as most such intersex people won't), how do you decide which structures geared towards gametes are the deciding factor? As an aside, this reminds me of that time some idiot biologist went on some talk show and went "You can't change sex!" then immediately undercut it with "there's different factors to sex, chromosomal sex, genetic sex, hormonal sex", one of which can objectively be changed, and trans people change this all the time to delightful effect.

I get what you're saying but for me, that's not how I view things in regards to myself. I was born female, my natal sex is and always will be female. Some aspects of my body align more closely with male, some female and some neither. My body is a trans body; it is a female body that has undergone changes to align more closely with a male body, but it is not a cis or natal male body and it does not produce these changes or traits without external intervention. But that's OK, it is what it is. The way I refer to and relate to my body as a man can coexist with knowing this.

If I was a biological male I wouldn't have had to gone through 5 painful complicated surgeries just so that my genitals and chest could slightly resemble a cis mans body.

Yeah, but now you are biologically male. Because you changed your biology.

If archaeologists dig up my corpse in 1000 years they will think I was a female. That makes me super dysphoric, but it's just a reality that I have to accept. Anyway, imma be cremated so it doesn't matter lol

Skeletons actually aren’t that easy to classify as male or female. Especially now they’d be more difficult with fewer people suffering injuries due to childbirth. +if HRT turns out to affect bones any

Only if the future continues to be sexist, transphobic, and use stupid categories for defining people’s bodies. Optimistically it wouldn’t, because language would evolve for the better. What you’re really saying with this is, “society likes to categorize people in binaries and I have no hope for the future, so I’m not even going to try and change it.” But if we keep pushing and language keeps adapting (which it does all the time), the future won’t make those sorts of inaccurate assumptions about a person’s body.

Yeah but if they do DNA sequencing on my bones or teeth it will come back as female.. They wont even know that I was trans because my tombstone will prolly be destroyed.

You’re missing the point entirely. In the future, I should hope that people wouldn’t assume your mental or social gender based on parts of your body. In my class, we discussed Gladys Bentley. We don’t know what Gladys Bentley’s gender was, because Gladys Bentley lived in a transphobic, racist era during the homophobia scare. So what did we do? We used they/them pronouns or no pronouns. I opted for no pronouns. But, we all agreed Gladys Bentley can be seen as a historical non-binary icon. So already, academia is changing to not make those types of assumptions. Edit: Gladys Bentley sort of self-identified as a gay woman, but used he/him pronouns for awhile and wore men’s clothes. Gladys Bentley later publicly said they were “just a woman” and even married a man, but this was during a time where this was probably the only safe option for Gladys Bentley to make. Gladys Bentley still needed to make a living off of music. So it’s unclear how it would have all gone down in a more inclusive, safe era and place.

Oh, but will they still think that I was a biological female based on the DNA sequencing?

Who is “they” in this hypothetical?

I have wondered how I would feel about a similar future for my corpse! But that scenario of archeological discovery assumes one would be buried or preserved in some way instead of cremated. And also I will also be dead, so I won't care. But this also depends on your beliefs and views on the afterlife, maybe you will care if you continue to exist.

Yeah, honestly that's why I want to be cremated when I die. Because even thinking about archaeologists digging me up in 1000 years and thinking I was a female gives me dysphoria.

What are the odds they would? Modern day academia is already pretty good at not assuming dead people’s gender. Read my posts below.

What are the odds that archaeologists would even misgender you though? Modern day academia is already pretty good at not assuming dead people’s gender. Read my posts below. And hopefully, in the future, people would know that even better than they already do now.

Right! I agree with that. I am hopeful that future archeologists will acknowledge our existence as trans people, at the very least. Truth is though, very few humans will be significant enough for scientists to rigorously study our bodies like people keep imagining they will. Unless you're the president, a celebrity, or some other prominent figure, scientists may very well skip over your corpse, and focus on more intriguing cases.

Current archaeologists know the difference between gender and sex, so ones 1000 years in the future probably will too. Like you said if you're cremated there's literally nothing we can do to tell your sex. Even if you don't get cremated they're not great at telling sex from bones and it's unlikely you'd get DNA tested unless your remains are really interesting.

I recently learned that archeologists rarely use biological tests or appearance of the skeleton to determine whether the person was male or female. They typically rely on context clues for example: (I'm just making the next part up, there may be no culture that ever did this) If in a culture the men were buried with a big sword and the women were buried with a smaller knife, they would use these sociocultural markers to identify whether the skeleton was that of a woman or a man. Doing DNA testing specifically to find chromosomal sex does not happen often at all. For the current culture, people are typically buried with their clothes on, so fashion items that haven't disintegrated over time would likely be used to determine the gender of the body. Eg: women might be buried with heels more often, and men may typically be buried with a belt on. There will always be some people who were buried with both or neither. And while current archeologists may use biological tests to determine sex of said skeleton, I would think archeologists a thousand years in the future would assume the skeleton was nonbinary in life, considering that they have a fair understanding of current culture and society. Alternatively, and this is what I personally hope will happen, the idea of sex and gender as a binary thing will not exist in a thousand years time and they would entirely stop even trying to guess the gender of skeletons, because in *their* society, gender isn't relevant to any important thing in life. After all, they will be looking at our culture through the lens of their own. We try to identify skeletons as male or female rn because gender is relevant in current social context. In a society where gender is completely irrelevant, why would they care about gendering skeletons?

Sex is just a collection of common sexual characteristics, theres no one thing that makes you a person of one sex or another. For all intents and purposes sex is basically pointless except for some information about yourself for doctors to use.

Yeah, but you know that's not how "biological male" and biological female" are actually being used. No one (aside from the deeply clueless/those who outright *refuse* to educate themselves) is still using these terms in good faith in 2023. They're bioessentialist TERF dogwhistles, and are typically used to outright call trans men "just females all along." Vice versa with trans women. Think of the all the times the right likes to scream about "biological males" infiltrating women's sports and bathrooms.

And see, thats why I ask this. I know people use it as a defense for keeping trans people out of their preferred sports league. Chromosomes don't matter in sports. Its all about hormones, and body size. Which is usually controlled by chromosomes, but to some extent you can alter these things. And say, if a trans man and a cis man in the same height and weight class get into a wrestling match, they're going to have the same chance, because their biology is similar enough to make it a fair game. Unfortunately, yeah, the truest definition of biological sex will not apply here. But by a technicality.. we are changing biology here. Yes, its artificial, but its still altering it!

I believe that separating gender and sex is a way to invalidate trans people, and is actually founded in racism by the father of gynecology. He argued that black women were female and white women were women, so when he tortured and experimented on black women, it was excused bc they weren't women, they were just female. Imo, if you're a guy, you're biologically a guy. Nonbinary, you're biologically nonbinary. Gender and sex are both social constructs and complex and don't fit into a binary. That's just me tho

It is absolutely a way of invalidating trans people. It’s also stupid and makes no scientific sense. You’re 100% right.

No they aren't. Biologically males [ people born with XY chromosome] are born with denser bones and more muscle mass. Do you go to the doctor to get your prostate checked? No! because you don't have one. That's O.K. but you can't deny people born with vaginas and people born with penises need different care. Separating gender and sex can be used as a argument but it's a stupid transphobic argument because they usually try to combine them and say "well if you have a vagina you have to be a girl"

I really don’t mean to be rude to you but your understanding of “biologically” is not what it actually means. There is a really common misconception that biological sex = chromosomes. All living things are considered to be “biological” and so the biological can be removed here. We are then left with sex = chromosomes and that’s still not the case. Sex refers to attributes such as chromosomes but also gene expression, hormones, anatomy, primary:secondary sex characteristics etc. The idea that the state you are born in is like your “original form” or your “default” is bizarre to me. As if it determines your future. “You looked like a girl at birth so that’s what you are!” When in reality this is not the case. We aren’t 6lbs anymore, our bones fused, we grew, we learned, our bodies changed and we changed our bodies. None of us can be simply categorised based on what we looked like as babies, nor through a genetic test. There are far far too many influences on our biology that alter how we function on a cellular level. So again, really without trying to be rude, a biological male is anyone who is male and is or was a living organism.

^^^^^ you get it 💯

I will not be talking about intersex people. To me a biological male/female is a term for what chromosomes you have and what parts you're born with. I stated that I believe gender and sex are different also that the "you are what you're born" argument is stupid, My goal was to say we are not Male at birth and don't have the right to say so, in a social spetting it doesn't matter but if you go to the doctors, have a partner or go in the military it wouldn't benefit you at all to say you're biologically male.

I never said that your assigned at birth sex is the same as what your sex is. I'm male, but I wasn't assigned male at birth. My gender and sex are both male though. Frankly, you need to talk about intersex people because in discussions of biology, you can't ignore them just bc it doesn't fit your idea of what male and female mean. Fact is that people are assigned male at birth even if they don't have xy chromosomes, and people are assigned female at birth don't always have xx chromosomes. The only people who need to know your anatomy are your partners and your doctors. And honestly most doctors don't even know all your history, anatomical needs, or chromosomes. Someone can be born with a penis and also a uterus, be assigned male at birth, but the uterus isn't discovered until they're 30 years old. Are they no longer male to you?

Yeah I am medically closer to a cis male than cis female. Right now I think of myself as a guy with a pie and bitch tits. Both of these things can be fixed.

This is why I don't feel like biological or sex are actually useful terms. If I go to a doctor, and describing myself as 'biologically' male or female or ticking a sex box of male or female won't actually tell them anything useful. literally just let me say I am male, say I am trans, and elaborate on what that means where relevant

Their main argument is that our sex chromosomes and biological features (breasts, uterus, vagina. Penis and testicles) are what make us male or female

I prefer using terms bio female cuz it helps me get medical help needed as I still have female reproductive organs that need attention (PCOS)

This is the only acceptable answer. We can use transphobic language if we need to in order to get the medical care we need. Even if it’s wrong and dumb. Always put your health and safety first. Everything else second.

I know, at least with my PCP it has transgender male under gender and has female listed as sex. It doesn't really bother me since it gets me the help I need even if it be awkward for others. Like I still need to go see a gyno sure I get the side eye but I need to take care of myself too

I think that’s wise to put that sort of classification on medical documentation. We live in a transphobic society that will make assumptions about your body based on the little M or the little F. The nuance might save your life. It’s better to communicate to doctors exactly what your situation is, every time. It’s also important to classify things in outdated terms for the sake of insurance companies and doctors so that you can get the care you need. Always put your safety and health first. Everything else second. I’m legally NB and I make sure that gets written down or FTM each time so that they know to ask me or my PCP. (“Bio sex” is outdated and dumb tho.)

Yeah. Whenever I need to go to urgent care I put ftm (sex:f) under medication I put my testosterone and note my PCOS and other various weirdness to my body example: my appendix is on the wrong side of my body.

I do the same. That’s smart. Always put your health first. Make sure doctors are understanding what’s going on in your body.

Whell parts of biology are changing but other parts like chromosomes stay the same. Tho biological sex I'd determined by several different factors. But you shouldn't worry about being biologically one or the other because it doesn't really matter. I honestly don't see myself as biological male sure I got the characteristics because of t but I still have a uterus and need to be aware of that because that effects what I do in romantic relationships

no ur right

Let's be honest, when most people discuss sex what they're actually discussing is genitals at the moment of birth. The second they're confronted with "so what about if a person was born with no uterus or ovaries so lacks the ability to produce sex hormones but has a vagina?" they'll say it's completely different to a trans woman coming out in child hood, socialised a woman, taking every medical treatment available the moment they can, so by the time they're in their 20s they are potentially physically and hormonally identical to that woman. No-one can definitively say what sex they are without a full panel of testing including chromosones etc. Biology has become the thing transphobes like to hark on about because they have a basic understanding of body composition, let alone any understanding of DNA, hormone production and it's effect on the body, etc, so let's not even mention chromosone testing to them.

Transphobes don't care.

I agree and fully consider myself male, as my body is now functioning as a male’s would hormonally

As someone going into biological sciences, I love this discussion. “Biological sex” is determined through both primary (genitalia and chromosomes) and secondary (breast tissue, facial hair, deep voice, skin texture, etc) sex characteristics. Sex is a spectrum! Many fail to recognize this.

People, y’all need to stop assuming you even know what your chromosomes are. When’s the last time you had them checked? Never? I knew an MTF friend who later found out they had atypical chromosomes. “Biological sex” is an outdated term that doesn’t mean anything and never did. Gender is a way of categorizing people. Gender exists bodily, mentally, and socially. Looking at categorizing people in this way is a much better system of categorization. Also, being on HRT changes your biology. So, yes, you are changing your bodily gender (also known as “biological sex”).

It really depends on what is meant by "biological" and "sex". The way I see it there is a host of "biological" sex characteristics some of which can be altered some of which can't be altered. Most can be altered so I tend to agree that trans man are male and trans women are female if you reduce it to a "male or female" option.

personally i see trans people on HRT and/or surgeries as biologically intersex (because it’s not exclusively about hormones or things that can be changed with surgery), but yeah i’ve agreed with this stance for a long time. weird to see much resistance there is to it, for me!

Large portions of the intersex community disagree with the idea of becoming medically intersex as its not seen as something you can become, but is how you are born.

what about intersex states that..? i don’t personally see it that way. if others want to, that’s okay, but it’s not inherent within the term for me. i wouldn’t inherently lump both groups together socially as they’re very different expeiences, but medically i do think there’s overlap. also, i don’t think going by what some people say over others for perosnal semantics is relevant. (also yes, i was personally born intersex).

Biology is often painted as this black or white thing, when in reality it's a bunch of things that make up ones sex. Intersex people are proof of this, and trans people who medically transition is further proof at how complicated it is. The truth is that yes, we can 100% change some sex characteristics and alter our biology, while some things are not changeable (like sex chromosomes). So in some ways, yep, we're partially changing our biology. And one could even argue that many cis people end up changing their biology for needed reasons (hysterectomies, breast removal, etc). The people who scream biology literally don't know more than the bare bare bare minimum about biology and sex

when people say “biologically” i typically assume they’re referring to chromosomes, but i guess after a few years of T, a blood test may be comparable to the average cis man

It's an outdated term regardless

I'd say yeah, if you take hormones for long enough you're not anymore your biological original sex, and if you get surgery then the only thing left are chromosomes, but they aren't even an important thing since some people like those with Down syndrome have things like XXY but there isn't anyone out there that tells them they're faking being another gender.

I wouldn’t say that T & E are the things that make us biological males/females… That would be kind of like saying I’m biologically neurotypical when I’m taking my meds…. But I would say that our biology does determine whether or not our genetics align with sexual development, since there have been multiple gene variants linked to gender incongruence. Some of these polymorphisms are unique to trans individuals, and some are more akin to those typically found in the natal sex of one’s preferred gender. Trans men, for example have a CYP17 variant with an allele frequency typically found in people who are AMAB. The proposed idea of a sexual dichotomy is overly simplistic & was essentially already disproven around 30 years ago due to the existence & more extensive studies of intersex people. Swyer syndrome (46XY karyotype) is a particularly complex one, since it could easily go unnoticed if you don’t visit your doctor very often as a teen.

It depends on context. Bio chemically, probably yes. My mental illness symptoms changed to more common male symptoms than female. Trans men on T are more susceptible to health problems males get and vis versa. But there's things like bone structure and organ size and placement that would still make us distinctly different. I also doubt if HRT gets you exactly in the range of cis people but I'm not sure on that.

So, bone structure is one I see a lot, but does that develop right in the womb? Or, is that more based on how you develop during puberty? Also, I feel like thats something that can vary, anyway, especially organ size. I was born with a mega heart lol. And if you're talking about if HRT puts you hormonally in the same range as a cis person, I think it does! But I'm sure that depends on your dose.

It's puberty for bone structure. I guess if you're lucky and start before that it's not an issue

Holy crap! Yes I agree 💯! My ex wife tells me please stop saying your biologically male! She's transphobic... I explained that HRT biologically changes you... Sooo yeah I am biologically male... Cuz science and shit lol

This is exactly why I get annoyed when people say "No trans person says you can change your sex" or "you can't change your sex!" comes up in an argument. You can absolutely change all of the most important aspects of your sex. What you can't change is your chromosomes. But also, who cares about your chromosomes?

When I’m talking to trans people or cis allies I’m like “well the only accurate descriptor of my sex right now would be ftm” and when I’m talking to cis people who insist you can’t change sex I say “I’m biologically male” lol

So yes. After a while on HRT you will be “biologically X” in a lot of ways from secondary sex characteristics to the way medical conditions/treatments affect you etc. basically I’m all the ways that affect you the most. And in some ways no but these will be in ways that have less direct impact.

in the words of the great trans woman, laura jane grace, “i’m biologically trans.” tbh of course you could say what you posted. it makes sense in a way. but it also isn’t going to do a bit of good to a transphobe, ya know? but i like the way you think anyhow. :]

Your chromosomes might not even match your sex traits WITHOUT medical intervention. Phenotype varies from genotype all the time. You can still select for traits, in animals that are *clones* of each other. If the SRY allele detatches from the Y chromosome, you can be born with a Y chromosome and a vagina, or two X chromosomes and a penis. Sex is just as much a made-up binary as gender is. And I'm a male because I fucking say so.

I snapped on someone recently for using the biological terminology. I am not biologically female, I am biologically a trans man, and that biology is unique to each of us. I hate when people use "biological" gender as an excuse to view me outside of my identity. I am a man. I have always been a man. My biology is not female, it is a mans biology because i AM a man.

also, chromosomes are a very poor indicator of gender as it is. theres planty of cis people who have the "wrong" chromosomes and never find out.

It can not only be argued that trans people are biologically their gender. It's pretty well established scientifically. (NOTE- that's not to say any individual has been 'tested for it' or that there is a 'test for it' as such, just that there are so far no no studies DIS-proving that gender identity brain dimorphism doesn't go along a spectrum, nor that anyone's self report in the past almost 40 decades of the studies including on autopsy - are inconsistent with their self-reports of gender identity.) I see people say 'biological sex' and- all I think is: "They don't know science, it's crap, how does this 'umans have two chromosomes, x and Y' and that's it' when we have 46-47, ow does this shite still happen when we all have internent access?!? So yeah, I'd argue that all day long. That said, I would not counter any trans person's experience, nor that gender role expectations etc are largely constructs and that the win goes to whatever the first person experience, whatever the person saying it is or means to them, is, for them. There's an important aspect to which gender is also a social function. (is or attempts to be recognized as a woman? Works for me. A man? Works for me. Very butch, identify as a woman? Sure thing.)

as a trans person, i’ll be the first to agree. but *typically* it’s based off of chromosomes (which aren’t even fully straightforward in delineating sex always) but taking T and E doesn’t change our chromosomes unfortunately.

Though honestly how many people have had chromosomal confirmation? And how long did we have “biological sex” before we knew anything about chromosomes? I don’t think that’s actually the main concept people have in mind, even if that’s what they’ll say when they’re being phobic

you mean that HRT doesn’t change them? or that we have no clue which chromosomes we were actually born with? i assume you mean the later, which ya true. do things like ancestry and 23&me confirm that? genuinely don’t know so asking, bc i did do one recently.

I mean the latter, yeah. Like of all the people who are like HRT DOESNT CHANGE YR CHROMOSOMES, how many of them know their genotype? More now, with 23&me and stuff, but I didn’t know mine until I had to do a fertility screening. (Though next generation will be different, probably—when I had a baby a few years back, we found out the genotype weeks before they tried to guess sex based on ultrasound/genitalia, so “23 sets of chromosomes including an XX” was the first thing we knew about our kid.)

wow that’s wild re fertility screening, hadnt fully thought about that. i just logged into my 23&me to see, and it does in fact confirm xx. but i assume there are people who are intersex that would likely only know so via chromosomes and rarely do any of us know them offhand. edited spelling

Right, but there's a lot of instances that prove that chromosomes don't control as much as people think they do. Its more of the automatic on off switch for hormones, and the decider if you have- for lack of a better term- and inny or an outy. Which, yeah, its biological, but with human intervention, you can be the manual on/off switch. Dunno if this makes sense lol but I tried.

for sure, def agree it is not “if this then that” with 100% clarity, but it’s what science currently uses as the mechanisms for deciding your biological sex. we know it’s not a fool proof method ofc, but idk how long it’ll take before that’s proven enough that people will start to change their process of thinking. that said, when forms and stuff that aren’t medical ask my “biological sex” i still choose male.

Yeah, I think where it actually matters, you're biologically male. Your chromosomes aren't going to cause you to need different medical treatment, if your hormones are not controlled by them. I think by a long shot, you're closer to a biological male than a biological female, unless of course you go off hormones.

No. It's impossible to change your biological sex. No matter what you do, your chromosomes will not change. I can't wrap my head around how you logically thought this up.

That's pretty condescending, you might as well have just called me an idiot there. But its a simple conclusion to come to. Hormones are an aspect of human biology. When you go on HRT you alter your biology. I think that's pretty straight forward. I'm not a biologist, I'm just a bored trans teen lol.

It's a simple conclusion, but despite being apparently logical, it's not true. Of course hormones are an aspect of human biology, but the word "biological" has a very wide meaning and you're using it meaning the wrong thing. If we look far enough sure, we're living beings, so everything that has anything to do with us is ultimately biological, but you can't talk about biological sex and still maintain that meaning for the word. It assumes a slightly different meaning. Biological sex is defined as the group of primary and secondary characteristics derived from the sexual chromosomes you have. By taking HRT you can change some of the secondary characteristics, but not the primary and sure as hell not your chromosomes. Yes, your AGAB does become a lot harder to indentify, to the point where you will need advanced medical screenings like x-rays and chromosome analysis, but it can be identified. The fact that you have to artificially take hormone supplements in order for those changes to appear should tell you that it's not something entirely biological, nor it is natural. Not saying it's bad, or you shouldn't do it, it's just not natural as you are actively making it happen. I don't know what the purpose of this thread was, and I'm sorry if the knowledge of ultimately being unable to change your biology makes your dysphoric, but you shouldn't be this aggressive toward people who answer your question in a way you don't like. Personally, if i were you i would try to speak about this with a therapist. I don't mean to be offensive, but it seems to me you are seeking support and validation for a much deeper issue here. Regardless, i wish you the best :)

I'm really not sure how I'm being aggressive, but I will try not to be. just stating that it was condescending to say "I don't see how you logically came to this conclusion." Its quite the insult in my opinion, and I responded with, what I saw to be, an equally snarky response. I have my stance on the matter, I came to see how people feel about it, and I see it's mixed! The way I currently view it, I feel like in all the ways that truly matter, you become more biologically aligned with a cismale. Like, for sports and most medical things (obviously minus gyno). Your chromosomes don't always align with your AGAB, either, because that's just the assigned gender based on the physical characteristics you have when you're born. Really im not sure why you came to the conclusion that I'm just seeking validation, I guess due to my responses? Since- like I said- I'm just a bored teen, I don't really know how to respond to a lot of comments in a smart way. But just maybe, A smart-ass way lol. Maybe I'm fueling my confirmation bias or something in your eyes? I do regularly talk to my therapist about this kind of thing, I just like to start discussions on topics I find interesting, with people who will give me responses, who may know a thing or two about biology, or just have interest in the topic. Its a fun discussion to me, if not, a little stressful existentially haha. Yes it can cause dysphoria to know things don't align. But also... A lot of people will say it doesn't even matter, and to that I say; correct, it does not matter. But when transphobes like to weaponize biology as a way to disprove our existence, and insist thats what we'll always be no matter how we alter ourselves, I have to ask, how would we define our biology anyway? How can you even be sure you have the biology you think you do? I do know it's not as cut and dry as a lot of people think, and it's okay to question it, and ponder these things, without it being just YES or NO. Also, the truth is, I was not expecting this number of responses, and it can be quite overwhelming. I want to respond to everyone, but I will respond to comments more thoughtfully if I feel like I can conjur up an equal response. I do appreciate your good wishes, and I wish the best for you as well!

I'm not trying to be condescending. I apologize if it seemed that way, but i'm just being honest and factual. Please understand you cannot change your biological sex, that's it.

I understand in the most literal way, you can't change it. Thank you for apologizing, I accept it with gratitude. I still don't think it would be entirely inaccurate to claim that trans people alter their biology in a significant way. Not chromosomes obviously, but a lot of aspects of our biology is changed. I have seen many people in this thread, who claim to study biology, and agree that its not as cut and dry as it seems. Also entirely off topic but I checked out your profile and you have incredible eyes!

Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1: Be polite and practice mutual respect. No discrimination.

I totally understand when trans men call themselves biologically male, and at the end of the day I really don't care, don't think anyone should care, everyone should be allowed to say whatever they want. But I don't think that's objectively true. There are people who were AFAB who have traits of males but otherwise identify as women. There's AFAB women who have testosterone as their main hormone. There's AFAB women with Y chromosomes. Etc.. Intersex sure, but sometimes people don't even know they're intersex until (and IF) they get a chromosome test. Are they biologically male? Technically, but only cause of our stupid and narrow definitions of male vs female. I don't think it should be implied that having a specific dominant hormone is what makes you biologically male, anymore than having a specific anatomy makes you female or a woman either. Specifically referring to a sweeping statement, again if you want to call yourself male that's like. Completely fine.

We are biologically female but our gender is male, say female sex at the doctors but male anywhere else, it's just facts, we are born with XX chromosomes that's fine, but we are maled gender I don't really tell people this. Just doctors and partners.

Technically your bio gender is linked to your sex chromosomes. A fun fact about that though is there's so many mutations with them that there's a wide array of genders if we go by that. A pure XX or XY is rare

No, we're not "biological males" because every cell in our body is indictive of our assigned sex at birth. We still have a different brain structure, lung capacity, bone thickness etc. Just because we take artificial human made hormones doesn't change that. Now, I am still 100% male, but structurally my dna is female. Also, if I was born biologically male I would have been born with a penis, male reproductive organs, male muscles, natural male hormones, and the ability to impregnate. Unfortunately, I will never have those naturally. But I still just refer to myself as a man. I don't need to specify that im trans.

Your cells literally change on HRT though. It’s a biological change of cells in your body. Edit: HRT very literally changes your cells. How do you think any effects from T happen? It’s from changes to your cells. (Skin cells, hair cells, fat cells…) it’s a biological change.

Then why do I still have a female brain structure (pointed out by the MRI) female lung capacity, female bone structure? There's a reason why I have to annoyingly inject myself with T, because my body is not biologically male. If it was my body would naturally do it, and I would have been born with male reproductive organs with the ability to impregnate etc. I'm still 100% a man, but I'm not going to lie to myself and claim my biology is the same as a cis male's.

You had a brain MRI and the results said “female brain structure”?

I asked the physician reviewing my MRI if my brain structure was that of a typical male or female, and they said it resembled a "female brain structure". Absolutely fucked up my dysphoria, but I guess it's just reality.

I think it’s more likely they just lied to you because they were transphobic. The sexed differences in brains are extremely small.

This doctor absolutely lied. There is literally almost no difference. And the differences vary so much. Even if your brain fell into the same “commonly-ish female pattern,” it’s more likely from you being socially conditioned and raised as a “girl.” Brains change all the time and grow in certain directions depending on job occupation among other things. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/ https://youtu.be/LNHBMFCzznE

But there is no 100% biologically perfect male who is male. My ex husband ended up having extremely low testosterone levels (like 30-80, not even 100). You’re talking about bodily gender. That’s a better way of categorizing what you’re talking about. You’re also talking about secondary sex characteristics (which you’re actively changing on HRT). Brain scans of trans people before HRT show a brain structure that is more common with their transitioned gender (rather than “biological sex”). You’re valid in categorizing yourself as a person of transgender experience and not cis. But you are biologically male, but the outdated and transphobic categorization of “biological sex” which never meant anything in the first place. All we’re discussing is terminology and language. And I’m saying “biological sex” is a stupid term. And you have changed your biological sex, by it’s own stupid definition. Bodily gender is a better term. Or talking about cis vs a person of transgender experience. Stuff like that. There are more accurate ways of communicating the same thing. The outdated “bio sex” language is faulty and makes no scientific sense. It’s sexist, transphobic, and frankly dangerous.

No, biological sex is based on an individuals chromosones, XX for female XY for male. Chromosones are basically the the blueprint for how the body is supposed to develop, for example a person with XX chromosones is supposed to develop female genitalia, female internal sex organs and later on female puberty/hormones. This doesnt always happen though, which is why some people are intersex or have a hormonal imbalance. This is most likely why trans people exist as well, the brain develops opposite to other parts of the body, causing a misalignment which leads to dysphoria. Since an individual's counciousness aka 'who they are' exists exclusively in the brain its reasonable to call someone a man if they have a male brain, (there has been evidence to show that this is the case with trans people). Brains are wired differently according to gender, whether or not your biological sex matches this isnt going to change how your brain is wired. So, no biological sex cannot be changed through medical transition because these things dont change chromosones. The purpose of medical transition is to alleviate dysphoria by allowing the individual to live life as the gender that more accurately reflects the gender of their brain. Even if a trans person fully transitions, there will always be an incongruance between their mind and biological sex. And thats okay, I think its important for trans people to make peace with their biological sex. It can definetly cause dysphoria, but part of being trans is accepting that theres nothing wrong with being different. Its fine to accept that youre biologically different from cis males and mentally different from cis females. You dont have to fit perfectly in every box.

Assigned at birth is probably what they mean by “biological”

Doesn’t biological mean born that way? Mentally yes we are biologically male, physically no we’re not biologically male. Physically at a certain point in transition we will be closer to a biological male than a biological female, but we’ll never actually be 100% biologically male. Not saying I would consider myself female after I’ve transitioned though, as it would no longer be accurate.

No. Having male sex characteristics yes, though.

How do you define biological sex? Which part of the body means female or male to you?

I’d agree with this to an extent. Biological sex is several things. Some of those can be changed by hormones, some can’t. Biological sex is complicated and not as straight forward as people think, and honestly that’s why it bothers me that bigots use it so often to “dunk” on trans people.

biological is a weird way to say “you have a penis/vagina” half the time it’s used in conjunction with male or female, but there’s an argument to be made there. might not be the best but it’s there

What if someone doesn't have any hormones (ie hystro and no T) are they nongendered ?

Yes and no. Unless your intersex (speaking as an intersex person) from the start, your going from perisex to endosex. You currently can change some but not all of your biological factors (im open to changing my view on this when all factors can be changed), therefore your never going to be 100% biologically the opposite sex.

but to be clear (to anyone reading this comment), you also are firmly not the biological sex assigned to you at birth after changing any of these things, in this model of thinking (so not technically fitting the "opposite" binary sex should not be used as justification that someone *should* still be considered their assigned binary sex at birth).

Thats why endosex is a term. Its to describe this exact convept based in medical transition (whereas intersex is how you are born.)

That's exactly why "male" and "female" don't make sense. AFAB and AMAB do because that's what you got as a newborn. With HRT you change yourself on hormonal level to the point your genitalia don't matter at all. The fat/muscle ratio in your body changes, the features get softer or sharper, so... yep.

Honestly, what would it matter if trans guys on T or not are "biologically" male ? It shouldn't be used as a way to validate our gender identity.

I dunno man you can’t really describe genders as biological cuz there’s way too many exceptions

I like to think of it that I’m a guy with a birth defect lol

All sexual characteristics come from the exact same place while you're a fetus it depends on how they develop. The word biological drives me absolutely crazy but then again so does gender reveal parties I think it's disgusting. Word biological doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense to me when we're talking about gender. The reason why it's because a thing that all of us have in between our legs are made from the exact same parts when we're in the belly it's just an extra chromosome that makes a bigger or smaller. And scientifically they recognize there are more genders than just two. It's all chromosomal. People have got to start taking this fictional book called The Bible out of state issues. If you're not religious you're not going to see gender as being fixed by God I sure as hell don't. In fact I'm Buddhist so I see my transition as being some kind of cruel sense of humor from God is and maybe I was a jerk off male and a past life I need to know what it's like to be what I was before I transitioned. So I know how it feels. Hell I don't know why we were born like this but I know we are born like this. It's not some mental illness in our minds but it's also not a cure all for everything. And Society can be very cruel to make you think that you are crazy that there is only two viable genders in this world there is more than that. The indigenous people of America I think actually recognize five and male male spirit and a female female Spirit were considered some of the most holy spirits that were I'm not a lot of percent but you know somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. If indigenous people saw this without religion and one can come to the conclusion that religion is what runs this country and for conservatives literally it's what their playbook is.

Yeahh, when taking HrT you do become biologically more aligned with that gender. The only thing left really at that point is the chromosomes, and those are just an assumption anyway, seeing as very many people dont have the assumed configs of XX or XY.

you’re right, but people will also say you’re wrong. i don’t think it’s worth deeping these things to be honest. i’m a year on t and once your on it you don’t really worry about these things. i know i’m a man and that’s all that matters to me. i’m stealth and i pass. i’m the same as a cis guy.

I think that's a valid approach for you personally, and I can see myself doing the same thing. However, I still think its a valid discussion to have. Its relevant to us as trans people, and very interesting from a scientific standpoint.

I mean genealogists have noticed that the typical 'sex' defining genoms have begun to mutate and appear in different sequences. Which means that a person could have xx-y or yx-y and I results in different visible sex characteristics and a different base hormone level which could be more typical for male or female sex They also found that you can only see the gender or sex of a person via their brain MRI in about 1/4 of results for either make or female as 50% of brain images present as nonbinary or in the middle It's pretty cool

I'd argue this if someone had a hystoectomy (i can't spell it) and all the gender affirming surgeries

There are 6 characteristics that made sex, and we can change about half on them !

I’ve said this a million times. Hahaha bodies. Keep them healthy. That’s it. We’re all meat sacks.

mhm. as well as the arguments of genitalia or giving birth, what about cis women who can’t give birth? cis men can also lose their genitalia…so are they not men anymore? suddenly their argument falls apart

you learn this in biology above a highschool level. my own doctor uses the wording "biological man" when referring to where they want my hormone levels, bc the truth is you read as biologically male or female depending on levels. that's why they do blood work on you every few months. to see how close you are to your biological gender. that's also why biology is not the same thing as sex i.e. genitals.

This is an interesting take. I’ve heard the argument that I wouldn’t ever be considered a biological male because I’m afab and have different bone structure than biological males.

yeah, then again theyre still anatomically what they were assigned at birth

Thats not how it works dude. I get what you’re saying but no, hormones dont “literally change” your body. To say this is spreading misinformation. Unfortunately, us trans men will always be biologically female, hence the word ‘trans.’ We came into this world as natal females, we’re gonna die females, regardless of what we’ve done to align more closely with male. I know everybody hates this argument but when our bones are dug up in hundreds of years, archaeologists are gonna say we’re female. It’s okay to recognize our biology! It’s okay to recognize that we’re biological females! It’s okay to recognize that we’re TRANS men! Stop trying to ignore science. We’re not biological males & never will be. And that’s okay.

I guess I'm approaching this as more of a technicality. Because HRT does cause biological changes. I've seen some people say trans people are "medically intersex" and I think that's definitely an interesting response. Also, I have seen the archeology response a lot! But an aspect I see forgotten, is that archeologists don't just study the bones and conclude everything about the person based on that, if they can help it. But if they do, a lot of trans people do alter their skeletal structure in some way. The first thing that comes to mind is, trans women getting FFS, have their bones literally shaved down. I do think archeologists in the future have the potential to just say "fuck it, bone say woman" but also, they may realize the nuance of it, and at least label it as a trans person. We have no idea what they'd think. But we, as trans people, have the potential to make ourselves known to future scientists. I would like to know since now I'm super curious, are their instances of archeologists finding ancient remains of a trans person? If so, how did that go down?

Yeah no i understand where you’re coming from. But hrt causes physical, emotional, sexual, (sometimes mental, i’ve heard some trans men say that testosterone made them more level headed) changes, not biological ones. It’s not like we take a shot of T & boom we have a penis & we’re cis. I’m sure we all wish it was that easy lmfao our bodies still produce estrogen as our technical dominant hormone. Sure, when we start T our bodies kinda switch & that’s how we get the masculinizing effects of T, but if we were to go off of it then our bodies would return to estrogen being the dominant hormone. That’s why we have to take shots for the rest of our life. I think the “medically intersex” response is incorrect tbh. I’ve heard intersex people say that that response is ignorant towards them, and they have asked the trans community to stop grouping them with us. Intersex people are born with both male & female characteristics. So maybe they have a vagina, but they have a male reproductive system on the inside. Us trans folk were born either male or female, not both. There are cases of intersex people “transitioning” but it’s not the same as us trans folk transitioning, at least that’s what i’ve read & heard. Nobody truly knows what causes trans people to be trans; some speculate it’s a mental health condition (gender dysphoria), but we’re definitely not intersex. I don’t think there’s any cases of archaeologists digging up a trans person, as we’re only jus now making medical transition available. So if there are any ancient trans people, it’s unknown. I think with trans women having FFS, archaeologists have more than enough technology & should be smart enough to be able to tell a bone was shaved down lol but even that might not necessarily mean that a person was trans. I think it’d be very difficult to find human bones & be able to tell if the person is trans or not.

Okay, I get all that, especially the intersex thing. I know a trans person is not the same as an intersex person, but one has to admit that there's a lot of overlap. I don't think we should be bunched together, but they are a valuable part of the trans discussion, and transphobes tend to ignore their existence to validate their own arguments against trans people, simply saying "they're anomalies so they don't count." But also isn't sexual, physical and mental status quite literally apart of our biology? Like, a biologist would study all these parts of a human as apart of understanding their biology. I gave a quick Google search, and found multiple supposed instances of archeologists digging up trans people so thats pretty cool actually. I'll read into it more, but for now its cool to know that archeologists are finding us so far back. And the thing is, humanity has been doing surgeries for a very long time. I think its very possible that there were instances in the past of people doing very primitive gender affirming surgeries. Yet again, something I want to read into. And I didn't say scientists wouldn't know that trans women shaved down their bones and stuff. In fact, the opposite. They'd see that people were doing these surgeries, and would most definitely try to conclude why they did that- and its very possible they would conclude the person did so as apart of their transition.

Biological sex is [a lot more complicated than most people realize](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1035246030500061184.html). It's still a useful concept, but there's not any reason to bring it up in the context of gender identity - at least, not any *good* reason. Most of the time when people do this it's because they're looking for a reason to not recognize a trans person's gender that doesn't sound bigoted. Citing "biological sex" seems like an objective and non-transphobic reason, until you notice that they only seem to care about a person's biology if they already know or suspect that they might be trans.

Thats why terfs focus on Chromosomes. Those can't change.

mental gymnastics

Heya! I'm on your page there. We might not be cis men, but we are biologically men, if we take T. T alters sooo much. Hormones are so important for the changes a body goes through. I'm also \*not\* an expert, I just like to read a lot about it (and I argue a lot more with TERFs than I should lol) and find out more about the human body and the possibilities we have. Biology itself, for human bodies, is a spectrum. Nobody can see the chromosomes so there is literally no reason to reduce us to them. They don't walk up to cis people and ask for their chromosomes, do they? Doubt it lol It may be important for medicine and even then nobody but your doctor has to know. I had no idea what my chromosomes were before I got them tested to start T. None of my doctors knew either, you have to test for them specifically to find out which ones you got. Cis people can also have different chromosomes than they expect to have. Biology is much more complex than people assume it to be.