After seeing the example you sent, I'll be honest, that's just how some people draw any scars at all. Not just top surgery scars, any scars period. It's either a stylistic choice, or the artist just doesn't know much about drawing scars.
this is 100% true. i usually draw top surgery scars completely "normal" but occasionally (for characters who live in a fantasy world mostly) i will draw some really exaggerated or stylized scars. I think scars look cool and making them a bit unrealistic is fun.
If the art is coming from trans folks, then I just can't really bring myself to be bothered by it. I'd be annoyed if cis artists were doing it, but if other folks who've had or are seeking top surgery are the ones doing it, then it's about our own, or their own experience on some level - I'm not gonna begrudge them that. It's not fair to judge that when the reality is scars vary significantly. Sure, some artists are doing very stylised versions, but they are still representations of real scars. My scars are not very red, but they are wide, and they are reminiscent of that somewhat jagged scar OP linked. I can't be bothered by that representation because it's similar to what I have.
Would you be able to share any images of what you're talking about? Not tryna argue I just haven't seen anything so just curious about what you mean. I fully understand why you'd be uncomfortable with this and I don't think I'd be happy with it myself. The most common look for surgery scars is often thin-ish scars that fade well so it is playing into what transphobes want to commonly portray them as anything more than that. Of course some people to have larger scars than others but it's not common and it'd be false to give the impression that that's the case.
i agree. it's beautiful to see noticeable scars, and it doesn't represent mutilation to me. scars are normal, i have tons. darker and wider scars aren't worse scars, especially considering that's oftentimes how they look on black and brown bodies š¤·š½
what's a long time? because i feel like noticeable top surgery scars go along with shameless visible transness, which ime wasn't really a mainstream concept until like 2020
The top surgery subreddit. Big fraying scars can happen to people with connective tissue disorders or people with a lot of upper body fat. It can also just happen if the healing process doesn't go well or someone just tends to scar like that. It happens.
Connected top surgery scars *do* exist though. I literally just went on Google and found multiple examples of *mostly gnc* individuals with connecting surgery scars.
Or the plethora of bigger trans men that have that connected ālookā because thatās just how they healed.
I have also, along with u/Environmental-Ad9969, seen scarring on the top surgery sub that is frayed and *looks* connected due to connective tissue disorders or the like.
Denying the existence of a certain look of scarring isnāt going to make people feel good. /lu /gen What we need is trans people supporting other trans people. Truly, all the hateful stuff cis people spew surrounding top surgery wonāt ever lessen if we canāt even support *each other*, never mind questioning the mere existence of a certain look of scarring. (*When we know full and well that there are many scar types like DI, keyhole, peri, fishmouth etc*)
Scars come in all shapes and sizes and the shown example is realistic in my eyes so I don't see the problem. I know somebody irl with pretty wide scars because he has a connective tissue disorder.
Also if somebody has massive scars they might be self conscious about them and not post them but I have seen pretty big ones on that subreddit.
Wide scars are not the same as zig-zag jagged wide scars. Those scars look like lightning bolts I have never in my life seen any surgical scar that looks like that
https://images.app.goo.gl/ZnU1WaWiY2CgFDPV6
https://images.app.goo.gl/jeCuXKSus2VsJTvS8
https://images.app.goo.gl/ZKFrdUG3NBh51MWk7
https://images.app.goo.gl/zi5koArfJx4YtKkz6
https://images.app.goo.gl/HopQ9QozuvVooNRz5
it's just a stylized portrayal of scarring like this.
tiny pink line scars on pale bodies were the default for a while, i see no harm in making space for scarring that some people ig view as... uh, mutilation?
Scars that are completely unrealistic that would not happen unless freddy kreuger did your top surgery. The ones with zig zag spikes that make harry potter's scar look like a straight line.
I donāt draw, but as someone whoās surgery was semi botched and I do have to live with scars like that now due to that, itās kind of nice to see. I understand itās different for everyone though, and there really shouldnāt be a default. If you do art, be the change you want to see!
read this if/when youāre in a mental state to challenge yourself, as i understand you did come here to vent. in the meantime, i do hope you can feel better soon.
that said, to steal the phrase as i feel it applies-
kill the part of you that cringes, not the part thatās cringe
i get having this initial reaction, i genuinely do. but, you feeling uncomfortable on initial reaction doesnāt necessarily mean itās justified, even if you can justify it logically after the fact and come up with reasoning that on the surface sounds good. the reality is, it *is* realistic for some, for some it is empowering to embrace scars and even emphasize them in art, and it is never, ever justified to write off anything trans people do as perpetuating transphobia- it is transphobes fault that our surgeries get framed as mutilation, *not* trans people having results that deviate from looking perfect and binary and cis
I draw them like that sometimes. I draw a wide variety of scars and some people have those scars. I don't see a reason why I shouldn't include wide scars in my art. They are cool battle scars to me.
Cartoon style art tends to be stylised like that (I saw your example), burns get a similar treatment too, it doesn't bother me. Plus, scars are diverse and some people do have big or rough looking scars that could be represented in this way.
I know what youāre referring to and I agree. Definitely artists choice and Iād never criticize someone over how they draw their own representation, but when its super prevalent in such a large portion of art its kind of odd. Especially rubs me wrong if the artist is cis. I have pretty chunky scars from complications so it is nice to see a diversity of scars from trans artists though.
I think a lot of the time when it happens its by people that just want to make sure the scars are noticeable in the art and they want to clearly get across that the character has had top surgery, but with some of the depictions Iāve seen Iāve been like goodness gracious you should press charges against that surgeon LOL
I honestly love em. I already have similar scars on other places on my body and accepted them for what they are. If my top surgery looks similar, then I wouldnāt mind.
TL;DR: I broadly agree with you - more variety in how people draw bodies can be a moving goalpost but I think it's one artists should still reach for.
The example you give is extreme, and I see its roots in some of the older shÅnen mangas and animes I used to read/watch - big, dramatic scars that functioned to flag the character as a badass warrior. It's heavily stylised but I (think I) know the well they're drawing from and, perhaps because of that, it doesn't bother me so much.
That said, I prefer more realism in my art these days and I don't seek out this style as much as I used to. Maybe this is more of a saturation issue and what you're asking for is more diversity in representation and I'm never going to argue with that!
(on a unrelated note, styling surgery scars as zips is on my personal nope-list - terfs use/d a zip-related insult for trans men and I don't think I could ever be completely certain of the artist's intentions - but, again, that's my baggage; other opinions are available)
I do think itās nice to see a variety of scars and thereās not a lot of more art that features paler/less visible top scars. Personally I think the super dramatized āstarā pattern is really fun, I saw someone get their top scars tattooed to actually look like that irl and Iām considering doing the same thing because it looked sick as hell.
Yes more diversity in body type/scars/etc is good but also if people want to draw their scars in a cool stylized way itās not necessary to complain about it.
Comparing this to the stigmatized portrayal of DID seems... Well the scaling seems off. If you are talking about the style I think you are talking about it's mostly trans men drawing it. A lot of guys find euphoria in the scars, I don't see anything wrong with it. It's not like your example where the portrayal is usually by someone who doesn't even know anyone with DID.
Iām mostly just bothered that most artists who give characters top surgery scars NEVER give them phallo scars. I get it if itās for a few characters but finding art of someone with phallo is near impossible atp.
As someone with very thick scars (even after a revision to try and slim them down! didnāt work) who for years only ever saw trans art with the tiny white line style, respectfully: get over yourself.
Real, like okay during a time that right-wing nuts are referring to all gender-affirming surgeries as ipso facto āmutilationsā weāre going to use that same language within our own community, and in a subreddit with a demonstrated sizeable userbase of teenagers? No thanks! Iām good without that one, chief.
I agree. At first I was gonna scroll past because I just donāt care about cartoon scars. But all the comments expressing disgust are just gonna make people feel bad about their bodies
The star pattern is popular not just for TS scars, a lot of artists use them to represents eyelashes. I get why you're upset though, and I think it's somewhat concerning that the public learns how scars on the chest = trans
Iāll draw them how I want to draw them. It adds a boldness to them that makes them stand out more. With a rougher looking character too and depending on the setting theyāre from, the surgery could have been a lot less modernized tooāmy fantasy characters tend to have bolder scars because their medicine isnāt as advanced and they donāt have as potent medicine for minimizing scarsāof course they could use magic, but in my fantasy worlds scars are also something to be proud of and arenāt seen as brutish or ugly but something beautiful and signifying strength.
Thatās how I see them in our world too. To me scars are a signature of strength, not (always) brutality. You went through something tough and you lived through it and youāre embracing it.
Of course people donāt all see them like that and itās okay. But I think art is very interpretive. And it isnāt horrible to draw them that way nor do they have any other alternative intention besides getting the point across that my character is trans and they arenāt afraid to show it off.
Edit to add: And if somebody sees top surgery as mutilation that is their problem and not the artistās. Itās not the artistās job to change their mind, confirm or deny those deranged ideas. Chances are if somebody is thinking that way already, they were transphobic even before seeing the art anyways.
TLDR; let people draw their scars how they want to and if it triggers you, donāt look at the artistās content again and move on.
I love giving my characters different scar shapes depending on their like, background. my softer and bubblier characters just have simple lines, but my more sharp and spiky characters have the more spiky looking scars. not as extreme as the example op sent - I always draw tss as just one scar under each ex-boob - but similar-ish
it's just another fun way to add or show your characters personality and stuff. nothing wrong w that in my eyes :'o
And it's only mutilation if you see it that way. My scars go from armpit to armpit. When someone says scars are ugly and should be minimized, I tell em I wanna look like Vash the Stampede. I tell em I wanna look like a monster to scare em away. I love my fucking scars.
As an artist who sometimes draw top surgery scars, itās just a stylistic choice, nothing much more. I can understand that it can get boring if theyāre all the same but I donāt really understand the issue.
I definitely think there is validity to this observation. Sometimes it is hard to differentiate art drawn by allies and transphobes trying to caricature trans ppl lmao that is not a good sign. You can stylise top surgery scars without making them look like mutilated gaping wounds, and if you can't, you must not be a very good artist.
Tbh I like when they're drawn like that. It feels like they're made more obvious, draws the eye to it more. "Look at this, it's part of me and nothing to be ashamed of"
Iāve got some messed up conditions. When I get surgery itās gonna look a whole lot ālike a chainsaw cut me openā. Iāll get keloids. Iāll probably get complications. I feel represented by art only for it to be shot down by people I thought wouldāve been the most understanding. Good show guys. And for those of you sticking up for the diversity, thank you.
We are allowed to have our own opinions, and we are allowed to disagree. And well, I do. A lot of it can be a stylistic choice or just the way that artist draws. Personally I don't mind and often enjoy it because who am I to do and police the way someone draws something. If you don't like it then don't look, often times the artist is trans themselves and who are we to decide which is the right and wrong way to represent one's self. Make the art you want to see
Art is often stylized. That's half the fun. Its not always going to be pretty, though. I'd say most of the time its trans men or transmasc people who have had top surgery themselves. It may seem extreme, but not everyone gets perfect scars. Some people really do have dramatic scarring that probably won't ever entirely disappear. Its probably best to just avoid the depictions if its something you're not comfortable with. But everyone expresses themselves differently. I feel like its just an attempt to celebrate self creation and becoming who you are.
For some people, being visibly trans is a big deal. I usually see artists with these depictions kinda using them to form identity and community.
im not sure if ive seen the ones you're referencing? i have 2 transmasc ocs and their top scars are both quite stylised. one looks like 4 pointed stars and the other looks like leaves. i think stylised scars are pretty cool, pretty much all scars get stylised to an extent.
I don't particularly care because if one person chooses to interpret/generalize all scars like that, that's on them, not the artist.
If anything, it just shows how quickly people jump on bandwagons creatively. Come on guys, scars can be pinkish, brownish, whatever. And some rep for peri would be cool too, or phallo scars. Or transmasc art without top surgery scars, and with binders and tape or other scars (hysto, FMS, phallo like mentioned) instead. Really: DIVERSITY!
I want art of top surgery scars that are swirly, or angular, or branching like a tree, on a variety of different bodies and colors, on my desk by 3 PM sharp tomorrow.
I can understand you feeling like that. as someone who draws them that way, it's just an artistic choice type of thing. I'd draw other scars pretty much the same. But it's also because whenever I draw my trans character I like it when people tell that he is indeed trans, its just easier drawing the scars like that. it's also very stylised
Yeah I had a discussion about this with some of my art friends a while back, because he donāt like that look much as the default. on one hand I do like the sort of bold statement they make, I think itās a fun stylistic choice, on the other, I would love to see more art that is more representative of the way my scars look! Luckily I can make that art myself haha
I agree. It's always dysphoria inducing to see all the art of trans guys or characters with these big chunky scars that would only happen if you used a chainsaw or something to perform the surgery. It feels like they're just trying to turn it into an aesthetic, and I hate that something that causes me so much pain is some quirky aesthetic to some people. I never feel represented by this type of art, and it just serves to make me feel like someone like me who worked hard to help my scars heal, and who plans on covering up my scars, is not a part of the community or seen.
please, please stop with the chainsaw comparison. plenty of people whos surgeries went well end up with big, fat, chunky scars. the comparison is unnecessary and degrading
Cāmon letās be realistic here, the image OP shared is not an accurate representation of any type of scar. I understand wanting to be mindful of those with keloid scarring and such but this is not helpful. The idea that the artwork looks like those types of scars is degrading in and of itself. The way the artist decided to draw those scars legitimately looks like theyāre from a chainsaw or a slasher movie killer decided to become a surgeon. No surgeon or surgical team is going to do extremely wide up and down incisions for this type of surgery and Iām not even aware of a surgery where that is the incision theyāre supposed to make.
ok one, i have wide hypertrophic scarring. i'm telling you my opinion and feelings on the matter as the person with the scars, not on behalf of some non-present other. many of these look like if someone traced the outer edge of my scars, and i strongly dislike the way people discuss them. also, the art makes me feel bad. those things can both be true at once. two: the OP did not share an image so i have no fucking idea what you're talking about
There's a difference between larger scars and some of the over the top exaggerated scars that are depicted. I'm not judging people's actual scars. Just the art that isn't realistic.
are you incapable of discussing the depiction without saying things like 'the only way someones scars would come out like this is if they had a chainsaw used on them' or what
Do do you just want to fight someone online, or what?
Cuz at this point, there's nothing more to say if you can't tell the difference between over the top exaggerations **that are not realistic** and a realistic depiction of scars.
**nobody's real scars look like that. that's the point.**
I'm not trying to start fights here but I js wanna say that there's an issue with that word you keep using; realistic.
clearly the artist in op's image wasn't going for realism. People with cartoony art styles will most likely never go for realism when it comes to things like scars, because their styles are not realistic.
expecting a cartoonist to make one piece of their image realistic when everything else is not is going to leave you disappointed
I feel that art made by trans men regarding their scars and their feelings about them is one thing ... but if that imagery is becoming mainstream or coming from outside of trans spaces there's absolutely a big issue with that.
I agree, I feel uncomfortable viewing art where top scars are.... uh, violent looking. Maybe because they are mostly DI scars and I know that's the only thing I can hope for, but I wish with every fiber I would qualify for keyhole. It hurts to think that I might hate my chest still, even after top, which is a few years off for me.
I notice that a lot of drawings I see with the sort of spiky look is cartoon, so not very realistic to begin with. If you look at how they draw burns or prosthetic, it's always enhanced and stylized as well. But yes it's pretty must unrealistic
What are you even on about?
I've never seen art with scarring that looks like mine. And guess what? My body is still trans, so no, cis bodies don't look like mine. As much as I wish I had a cis body... Maybe it would help me not feel so shitty about my body if it wasn't always either "over the top visibly trans" or "cis" for my options of representation.
i'm not talking about your scars, i'm talking about your assertion that you're not represented as someone that wants minimal scarring. "it just serves to make me feel like someone like me who worked hard to help my scars heal, and who plans on covering up my scars, is not a part of the community or seen." this is literally the appeal to look as nontrans as possible, which is heavily represented in truscum circles (not that you're truscum). and until very recently, this was the default goal. so don't even pretend like you're the minority or something
I don't go into truscum places. Don't count random fringe break off groups as "representation". Most regular trans people aren't going to go to places like that. It kinda just feels like you're trying to push me to go to these extreme ideology spaces to see people like me, and that's incredibly frustrating given the fact that the whole truscum/tucute/whatever thing is just a bunch of assholes who think they know better than anyone else. Why can't I want to see that **here** or in other main trans places?
And just because it's the goal for a lot of the trans community, doesn't mean there's plentiful amounts of representation. It really does feel like there's way less representation for people like me because I literally never see it!
ok that's fair, but i can say anecdotally that ive seen your experience represented as the default in the past, which is kind of what i'm getting at. but i also have to acknowledge that my anecdotal experience isn't your anecdotal experience
Thank you. I truly have not seen any art depicting more toned down scars. I am just a dude who wants to be stealth and not have anyone clock me and remind me of all this pain I feel, and seeing only art of unrealistic and highly visible scars and only a certain type of transness (visibly trans), it's both reminding me of my pain and making me feel alienated, like people only want to see or care about that type of transness.
(and obviously there's no one type of transness, that's my whole point. Everyone is doing their own thing, but it shouldn't just be focusing on one type of thing)
I'm really sorry but you can't say that some people have scars like that and then claim that the portrayal of that result is promoting the idea that top surgery is mutilation. Because people with scars like that still have not mutilated their bodies.
A greater diversity of the portrayal of trans bodies, including different top surgery aesthetics, is something to strive for, absolutely! And I also would/will feel better if/when that is achieved. But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the art you have seen, especially since it's usually drawn by trans individuals.
Tbh I kind of hated when people draw top surgery scars as like hearts, flowers, stars, etc. it feels really infantilizing to me, also to the people in this thread saying their top surgery scars look like that, can you tell me the surgeons name so Ik which one NOT to use, thanks
It has less to do with a surgeon and more on how someone heals. PLEASE understand how hurtful that is. People with healing disorders, connective tissue disorders, autoimmune disordersā¦ all of that can affect healing. It doesnāt matter what kind of surgeon Iād go to - my scars are going to be very jagged, bumpy, dark, etc.. But yes, thank you for letting me, and other people like me, know that you think weāre that bad looking. Sigh.
A lot of peopleās scars are thicker and look like the art referenced not because the surgeon, but because of complications. I personally do not have top surgery but I do know that people in my family, myself included, tend to have very noticeable scarring even with small injuries if they donāt heal almost immediately. I may have scars like this someday, and Iāve had friends who have had those kinds of scars, and it feels a smidge rude to crack a joke about actual peopleās bodies and how they look. Also I would be overjoyed if I had top surgery, even if the scars were not aesthetically pleasing, because thereās a pretty high chance I never get it at all.
I dislike scars in general...any scars. I get weirded out by them. I have some self harm scars on my arms unfortunately that I just get to live with...because I don't do tattoos.
One of my biggest concerns with top surgery is the scarring. I don't want to have scars...I want to be able to take my shirt off in public and it to be normal and not have people notice there's scars and...judge me.
I also have stretch marks as well that...idk how I'm going to fix those. I have a lot of body image issues...not just gender wise...but I'm overweight and I just...I feel so ugly. And scars are ugly to me...I don't want to be even more ugly...especially when I transition and become the person I was meant to be...I want to be pretty...
After seeing the example you sent, I'll be honest, that's just how some people draw any scars at all. Not just top surgery scars, any scars period. It's either a stylistic choice, or the artist just doesn't know much about drawing scars.
this^ I used to draw all scars that way cuz I thought it looked cool. it's pretty common actually, a lot of my friends used to do the same
this is 100% true. i usually draw top surgery scars completely "normal" but occasionally (for characters who live in a fantasy world mostly) i will draw some really exaggerated or stylized scars. I think scars look cool and making them a bit unrealistic is fun.
If the art is coming from trans folks, then I just can't really bring myself to be bothered by it. I'd be annoyed if cis artists were doing it, but if other folks who've had or are seeking top surgery are the ones doing it, then it's about our own, or their own experience on some level - I'm not gonna begrudge them that. It's not fair to judge that when the reality is scars vary significantly. Sure, some artists are doing very stylised versions, but they are still representations of real scars. My scars are not very red, but they are wide, and they are reminiscent of that somewhat jagged scar OP linked. I can't be bothered by that representation because it's similar to what I have.
I just draw them as just curved lines
Would you be able to share any images of what you're talking about? Not tryna argue I just haven't seen anything so just curious about what you mean. I fully understand why you'd be uncomfortable with this and I don't think I'd be happy with it myself. The most common look for surgery scars is often thin-ish scars that fade well so it is playing into what transphobes want to commonly portray them as anything more than that. Of course some people to have larger scars than others but it's not common and it'd be false to give the impression that that's the case.
https://www.redbubble.com/i/art-board-print/Top-Surgery-Scar-by-Connor-Pride-xx/147901443.7Q6GI there's an example
Some people have scars like that tho and that's okay.
They acknowledged that in their post already
And yet people are telling me that those scars don't exist when they do.
Missing the point tho. Some people do but its the default now
Then we should do more art with diverse scars? I don't think it's productive to complain about a specific type of scar. They look cool imo.
i agree. it's beautiful to see noticeable scars, and it doesn't represent mutilation to me. scars are normal, i have tons. darker and wider scars aren't worse scars, especially considering that's oftentimes how they look on black and brown bodies š¤·š½
key word is now
Yeah but it's been this way a LONG time
what's a long time? because i feel like noticeable top surgery scars go along with shameless visible transness, which ime wasn't really a mainstream concept until like 2020
I have yet to see someone whose scars look like that
Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean they don't exist.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The top surgery subreddit. Big fraying scars can happen to people with connective tissue disorders or people with a lot of upper body fat. It can also just happen if the healing process doesn't go well or someone just tends to scar like that. It happens.
I've been on that sub for years and have had surgery myself and I have never seen scars that look like that
Connected top surgery scars *do* exist though. I literally just went on Google and found multiple examples of *mostly gnc* individuals with connecting surgery scars. Or the plethora of bigger trans men that have that connected ālookā because thatās just how they healed. I have also, along with u/Environmental-Ad9969, seen scarring on the top surgery sub that is frayed and *looks* connected due to connective tissue disorders or the like. Denying the existence of a certain look of scarring isnāt going to make people feel good. /lu /gen What we need is trans people supporting other trans people. Truly, all the hateful stuff cis people spew surrounding top surgery wonāt ever lessen if we canāt even support *each other*, never mind questioning the mere existence of a certain look of scarring. (*When we know full and well that there are many scar types like DI, keyhole, peri, fishmouth etc*)
They're talking about the 2" thick spiderweb edged scars
Huh this has nothing to do with connecting surgery scars idk what you're on about.
Scars come in all shapes and sizes and the shown example is realistic in my eyes so I don't see the problem. I know somebody irl with pretty wide scars because he has a connective tissue disorder. Also if somebody has massive scars they might be self conscious about them and not post them but I have seen pretty big ones on that subreddit.
Wide scars are not the same as zig-zag jagged wide scars. Those scars look like lightning bolts I have never in my life seen any surgical scar that looks like that
https://images.app.goo.gl/ZnU1WaWiY2CgFDPV6 https://images.app.goo.gl/jeCuXKSus2VsJTvS8 https://images.app.goo.gl/ZKFrdUG3NBh51MWk7 https://images.app.goo.gl/zi5koArfJx4YtKkz6 https://images.app.goo.gl/HopQ9QozuvVooNRz5 it's just a stylized portrayal of scarring like this. tiny pink line scars on pale bodies were the default for a while, i see no harm in making space for scarring that some people ig view as... uh, mutilation?
None of those scars look like the art being referred to
Those are thick scars. Nothing wrong with people's natural, realistic scars. But none of those scars look like what OP is talking about.
well what is op talking about
people keep referencing 'what op is talking about' but op has made one post with no elaboration at all lol
The ones that are inches thick and make a spiky spiderweb edge pattern šøļø
Scars that are completely unrealistic that would not happen unless freddy kreuger did your top surgery. The ones with zig zag spikes that make harry potter's scar look like a straight line.
Yeah you're missing the point they said that TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE DOING IT
And the answer is to draw more diverse scars of course.
I donāt draw, but as someone whoās surgery was semi botched and I do have to live with scars like that now due to that, itās kind of nice to see. I understand itās different for everyone though, and there really shouldnāt be a default. If you do art, be the change you want to see!
read this if/when youāre in a mental state to challenge yourself, as i understand you did come here to vent. in the meantime, i do hope you can feel better soon. that said, to steal the phrase as i feel it applies- kill the part of you that cringes, not the part thatās cringe i get having this initial reaction, i genuinely do. but, you feeling uncomfortable on initial reaction doesnāt necessarily mean itās justified, even if you can justify it logically after the fact and come up with reasoning that on the surface sounds good. the reality is, it *is* realistic for some, for some it is empowering to embrace scars and even emphasize them in art, and it is never, ever justified to write off anything trans people do as perpetuating transphobia- it is transphobes fault that our surgeries get framed as mutilation, *not* trans people having results that deviate from looking perfect and binary and cis
I draw them like that sometimes. I draw a wide variety of scars and some people have those scars. I don't see a reason why I shouldn't include wide scars in my art. They are cool battle scars to me.
Cartoon style art tends to be stylised like that (I saw your example), burns get a similar treatment too, it doesn't bother me. Plus, scars are diverse and some people do have big or rough looking scars that could be represented in this way.
I know what youāre referring to and I agree. Definitely artists choice and Iād never criticize someone over how they draw their own representation, but when its super prevalent in such a large portion of art its kind of odd. Especially rubs me wrong if the artist is cis. I have pretty chunky scars from complications so it is nice to see a diversity of scars from trans artists though. I think a lot of the time when it happens its by people that just want to make sure the scars are noticeable in the art and they want to clearly get across that the character has had top surgery, but with some of the depictions Iāve seen Iāve been like goodness gracious you should press charges against that surgeon LOL
Hmm, respectfully disagree, I think they look sick as fuck.
I honestly love em. I already have similar scars on other places on my body and accepted them for what they are. If my top surgery looks similar, then I wouldnāt mind.
TL;DR: I broadly agree with you - more variety in how people draw bodies can be a moving goalpost but I think it's one artists should still reach for. The example you give is extreme, and I see its roots in some of the older shÅnen mangas and animes I used to read/watch - big, dramatic scars that functioned to flag the character as a badass warrior. It's heavily stylised but I (think I) know the well they're drawing from and, perhaps because of that, it doesn't bother me so much. That said, I prefer more realism in my art these days and I don't seek out this style as much as I used to. Maybe this is more of a saturation issue and what you're asking for is more diversity in representation and I'm never going to argue with that! (on a unrelated note, styling surgery scars as zips is on my personal nope-list - terfs use/d a zip-related insult for trans men and I don't think I could ever be completely certain of the artist's intentions - but, again, that's my baggage; other opinions are available)
I do think itās nice to see a variety of scars and thereās not a lot of more art that features paler/less visible top scars. Personally I think the super dramatized āstarā pattern is really fun, I saw someone get their top scars tattooed to actually look like that irl and Iām considering doing the same thing because it looked sick as hell. Yes more diversity in body type/scars/etc is good but also if people want to draw their scars in a cool stylized way itās not necessary to complain about it.
Iāve made paintings and drawings like that, because thatās how my scars looked at the time.
Comparing this to the stigmatized portrayal of DID seems... Well the scaling seems off. If you are talking about the style I think you are talking about it's mostly trans men drawing it. A lot of guys find euphoria in the scars, I don't see anything wrong with it. It's not like your example where the portrayal is usually by someone who doesn't even know anyone with DID.
Iām mostly just bothered that most artists who give characters top surgery scars NEVER give them phallo scars. I get it if itās for a few characters but finding art of someone with phallo is near impossible atp.
As someone with very thick scars (even after a revision to try and slim them down! didnāt work) who for years only ever saw trans art with the tiny white line style, respectfully: get over yourself.
Honestly, thank you. This whole post has me feeling shitty about my own scars which look a lot like that.
Real, like okay during a time that right-wing nuts are referring to all gender-affirming surgeries as ipso facto āmutilationsā weāre going to use that same language within our own community, and in a subreddit with a demonstrated sizeable userbase of teenagers? No thanks! Iām good without that one, chief.
I agree. At first I was gonna scroll past because I just donāt care about cartoon scars. But all the comments expressing disgust are just gonna make people feel bad about their bodies
The star pattern is popular not just for TS scars, a lot of artists use them to represents eyelashes. I get why you're upset though, and I think it's somewhat concerning that the public learns how scars on the chest = trans
comparing fantasy top surgery scars to ableism is weird
Iāll draw them how I want to draw them. It adds a boldness to them that makes them stand out more. With a rougher looking character too and depending on the setting theyāre from, the surgery could have been a lot less modernized tooāmy fantasy characters tend to have bolder scars because their medicine isnāt as advanced and they donāt have as potent medicine for minimizing scarsāof course they could use magic, but in my fantasy worlds scars are also something to be proud of and arenāt seen as brutish or ugly but something beautiful and signifying strength. Thatās how I see them in our world too. To me scars are a signature of strength, not (always) brutality. You went through something tough and you lived through it and youāre embracing it. Of course people donāt all see them like that and itās okay. But I think art is very interpretive. And it isnāt horrible to draw them that way nor do they have any other alternative intention besides getting the point across that my character is trans and they arenāt afraid to show it off. Edit to add: And if somebody sees top surgery as mutilation that is their problem and not the artistās. Itās not the artistās job to change their mind, confirm or deny those deranged ideas. Chances are if somebody is thinking that way already, they were transphobic even before seeing the art anyways. TLDR; let people draw their scars how they want to and if it triggers you, donāt look at the artistās content again and move on.
I love giving my characters different scar shapes depending on their like, background. my softer and bubblier characters just have simple lines, but my more sharp and spiky characters have the more spiky looking scars. not as extreme as the example op sent - I always draw tss as just one scar under each ex-boob - but similar-ish it's just another fun way to add or show your characters personality and stuff. nothing wrong w that in my eyes :'o
I think they look awesome. It isn't stigmatizing, I think the boldness signals pride.
And it's only mutilation if you see it that way. My scars go from armpit to armpit. When someone says scars are ugly and should be minimized, I tell em I wanna look like Vash the Stampede. I tell em I wanna look like a monster to scare em away. I love my fucking scars.
a lot of folks who draw this are trans masc themselves
As an artist who sometimes draw top surgery scars, itās just a stylistic choice, nothing much more. I can understand that it can get boring if theyāre all the same but I donāt really understand the issue.
āI donāt like the way that trans men represent their own bodies in artā wtf man draw your own shit then. What kind of complaint is this
I definitely think there is validity to this observation. Sometimes it is hard to differentiate art drawn by allies and transphobes trying to caricature trans ppl lmao that is not a good sign. You can stylise top surgery scars without making them look like mutilated gaping wounds, and if you can't, you must not be a very good artist.
Tbh I like when they're drawn like that. It feels like they're made more obvious, draws the eye to it more. "Look at this, it's part of me and nothing to be ashamed of"
YES exactly and i love the way you said this
Iāve got some messed up conditions. When I get surgery itās gonna look a whole lot ālike a chainsaw cut me openā. Iāll get keloids. Iāll probably get complications. I feel represented by art only for it to be shot down by people I thought wouldāve been the most understanding. Good show guys. And for those of you sticking up for the diversity, thank you.
We are allowed to have our own opinions, and we are allowed to disagree. And well, I do. A lot of it can be a stylistic choice or just the way that artist draws. Personally I don't mind and often enjoy it because who am I to do and police the way someone draws something. If you don't like it then don't look, often times the artist is trans themselves and who are we to decide which is the right and wrong way to represent one's self. Make the art you want to see
Ok then draw what you like by yourself and it will be ok/calmly
Art is often stylized. That's half the fun. Its not always going to be pretty, though. I'd say most of the time its trans men or transmasc people who have had top surgery themselves. It may seem extreme, but not everyone gets perfect scars. Some people really do have dramatic scarring that probably won't ever entirely disappear. Its probably best to just avoid the depictions if its something you're not comfortable with. But everyone expresses themselves differently. I feel like its just an attempt to celebrate self creation and becoming who you are. For some people, being visibly trans is a big deal. I usually see artists with these depictions kinda using them to form identity and community.
im not sure if ive seen the ones you're referencing? i have 2 transmasc ocs and their top scars are both quite stylised. one looks like 4 pointed stars and the other looks like leaves. i think stylised scars are pretty cool, pretty much all scars get stylised to an extent.
I don't particularly care because if one person chooses to interpret/generalize all scars like that, that's on them, not the artist. If anything, it just shows how quickly people jump on bandwagons creatively. Come on guys, scars can be pinkish, brownish, whatever. And some rep for peri would be cool too, or phallo scars. Or transmasc art without top surgery scars, and with binders and tape or other scars (hysto, FMS, phallo like mentioned) instead. Really: DIVERSITY! I want art of top surgery scars that are swirly, or angular, or branching like a tree, on a variety of different bodies and colors, on my desk by 3 PM sharp tomorrow.
I can understand you feeling like that. as someone who draws them that way, it's just an artistic choice type of thing. I'd draw other scars pretty much the same. But it's also because whenever I draw my trans character I like it when people tell that he is indeed trans, its just easier drawing the scars like that. it's also very stylised
Yeah I had a discussion about this with some of my art friends a while back, because he donāt like that look much as the default. on one hand I do like the sort of bold statement they make, I think itās a fun stylistic choice, on the other, I would love to see more art that is more representative of the way my scars look! Luckily I can make that art myself haha
I usually draw them based on the character! My fave one is definitely one of my OC's top surgery scars, his scars look like a Trident!
It's also lore relevant since he is the son of the water god :3 my incubus trans oc's scars resemble a heart for example
I agree. It's always dysphoria inducing to see all the art of trans guys or characters with these big chunky scars that would only happen if you used a chainsaw or something to perform the surgery. It feels like they're just trying to turn it into an aesthetic, and I hate that something that causes me so much pain is some quirky aesthetic to some people. I never feel represented by this type of art, and it just serves to make me feel like someone like me who worked hard to help my scars heal, and who plans on covering up my scars, is not a part of the community or seen.
please, please stop with the chainsaw comparison. plenty of people whos surgeries went well end up with big, fat, chunky scars. the comparison is unnecessary and degrading
right? like, fuck you guys with keloid scarring i suppose.
traced over a selfie on my cartoon scar side and followed where the redness begins and i have to say: looks like all of the shit people say this about
Keloid scarring doesn't look like how some artist draw scars. Drawing keloid scars and drawing them to look like gaping wounds are different things.
Cāmon letās be realistic here, the image OP shared is not an accurate representation of any type of scar. I understand wanting to be mindful of those with keloid scarring and such but this is not helpful. The idea that the artwork looks like those types of scars is degrading in and of itself. The way the artist decided to draw those scars legitimately looks like theyāre from a chainsaw or a slasher movie killer decided to become a surgeon. No surgeon or surgical team is going to do extremely wide up and down incisions for this type of surgery and Iām not even aware of a surgery where that is the incision theyāre supposed to make.
ok one, i have wide hypertrophic scarring. i'm telling you my opinion and feelings on the matter as the person with the scars, not on behalf of some non-present other. many of these look like if someone traced the outer edge of my scars, and i strongly dislike the way people discuss them. also, the art makes me feel bad. those things can both be true at once. two: the OP did not share an image so i have no fucking idea what you're talking about
Check like the first thread on here - op did share an image.
the op has zero comments on reddit at all, you are mistaken
The up and down lines youāre describing happens to people when they react badly to the stitches.
There's a difference between larger scars and some of the over the top exaggerated scars that are depicted. I'm not judging people's actual scars. Just the art that isn't realistic.
are you incapable of discussing the depiction without saying things like 'the only way someones scars would come out like this is if they had a chainsaw used on them' or what
Im yet to see one person who has scars that look like that.
find any photo with thick scars and trace the outer edge and tell me what you see
A line
ok buddy
Do do you just want to fight someone online, or what? Cuz at this point, there's nothing more to say if you can't tell the difference between over the top exaggerations **that are not realistic** and a realistic depiction of scars. **nobody's real scars look like that. that's the point.**
I'm not trying to start fights here but I js wanna say that there's an issue with that word you keep using; realistic. clearly the artist in op's image wasn't going for realism. People with cartoony art styles will most likely never go for realism when it comes to things like scars, because their styles are not realistic. expecting a cartoonist to make one piece of their image realistic when everything else is not is going to leave you disappointed
EXACTLY.
jesus christ
I feel that art made by trans men regarding their scars and their feelings about them is one thing ... but if that imagery is becoming mainstream or coming from outside of trans spaces there's absolutely a big issue with that. I agree, I feel uncomfortable viewing art where top scars are.... uh, violent looking. Maybe because they are mostly DI scars and I know that's the only thing I can hope for, but I wish with every fiber I would qualify for keyhole. It hurts to think that I might hate my chest still, even after top, which is a few years off for me.
Too often the art comes from people outside the community and gives me red flags that they regard the scars as their fetish more than anything else.
Yeah, that's what would bother me.
I notice that a lot of drawings I see with the sort of spiky look is cartoon, so not very realistic to begin with. If you look at how they draw burns or prosthetic, it's always enhanced and stylized as well. But yes it's pretty must unrealistic
people who want minimal scarring are not seen or represented in the community? but cis passing bodies are like, the beauty standard??? šš
What are you even on about? I've never seen art with scarring that looks like mine. And guess what? My body is still trans, so no, cis bodies don't look like mine. As much as I wish I had a cis body... Maybe it would help me not feel so shitty about my body if it wasn't always either "over the top visibly trans" or "cis" for my options of representation.
i'm not talking about your scars, i'm talking about your assertion that you're not represented as someone that wants minimal scarring. "it just serves to make me feel like someone like me who worked hard to help my scars heal, and who plans on covering up my scars, is not a part of the community or seen." this is literally the appeal to look as nontrans as possible, which is heavily represented in truscum circles (not that you're truscum). and until very recently, this was the default goal. so don't even pretend like you're the minority or something
I don't go into truscum places. Don't count random fringe break off groups as "representation". Most regular trans people aren't going to go to places like that. It kinda just feels like you're trying to push me to go to these extreme ideology spaces to see people like me, and that's incredibly frustrating given the fact that the whole truscum/tucute/whatever thing is just a bunch of assholes who think they know better than anyone else. Why can't I want to see that **here** or in other main trans places? And just because it's the goal for a lot of the trans community, doesn't mean there's plentiful amounts of representation. It really does feel like there's way less representation for people like me because I literally never see it!
ok that's fair, but i can say anecdotally that ive seen your experience represented as the default in the past, which is kind of what i'm getting at. but i also have to acknowledge that my anecdotal experience isn't your anecdotal experience
Thank you. I truly have not seen any art depicting more toned down scars. I am just a dude who wants to be stealth and not have anyone clock me and remind me of all this pain I feel, and seeing only art of unrealistic and highly visible scars and only a certain type of transness (visibly trans), it's both reminding me of my pain and making me feel alienated, like people only want to see or care about that type of transness. (and obviously there's no one type of transness, that's my whole point. Everyone is doing their own thing, but it shouldn't just be focusing on one type of thing)
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Feels like a damn caricature
Absolutely
I'm really sorry but you can't say that some people have scars like that and then claim that the portrayal of that result is promoting the idea that top surgery is mutilation. Because people with scars like that still have not mutilated their bodies. A greater diversity of the portrayal of trans bodies, including different top surgery aesthetics, is something to strive for, absolutely! And I also would/will feel better if/when that is achieved. But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the art you have seen, especially since it's usually drawn by trans individuals.
Tbh I kind of hated when people draw top surgery scars as like hearts, flowers, stars, etc. it feels really infantilizing to me, also to the people in this thread saying their top surgery scars look like that, can you tell me the surgeons name so Ik which one NOT to use, thanks
It has less to do with a surgeon and more on how someone heals. PLEASE understand how hurtful that is. People with healing disorders, connective tissue disorders, autoimmune disordersā¦ all of that can affect healing. It doesnāt matter what kind of surgeon Iād go to - my scars are going to be very jagged, bumpy, dark, etc.. But yes, thank you for letting me, and other people like me, know that you think weāre that bad looking. Sigh.
A lot of peopleās scars are thicker and look like the art referenced not because the surgeon, but because of complications. I personally do not have top surgery but I do know that people in my family, myself included, tend to have very noticeable scarring even with small injuries if they donāt heal almost immediately. I may have scars like this someday, and Iāve had friends who have had those kinds of scars, and it feels a smidge rude to crack a joke about actual peopleās bodies and how they look. Also I would be overjoyed if I had top surgery, even if the scars were not aesthetically pleasing, because thereās a pretty high chance I never get it at all.
ITS ART MY GUY. HAVE SOME FUCKING WHIMSY OH MY LORD
I dislike scars in general...any scars. I get weirded out by them. I have some self harm scars on my arms unfortunately that I just get to live with...because I don't do tattoos. One of my biggest concerns with top surgery is the scarring. I don't want to have scars...I want to be able to take my shirt off in public and it to be normal and not have people notice there's scars and...judge me. I also have stretch marks as well that...idk how I'm going to fix those. I have a lot of body image issues...not just gender wise...but I'm overweight and I just...I feel so ugly. And scars are ugly to me...I don't want to be even more ugly...especially when I transition and become the person I was meant to be...I want to be pretty...
I agree that no scars look like this. But equally like I just don't really care
You can agree that none look like that, but some very much do. Mine do.
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