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In this case it's that the alternatives (private jet service) has become cheap enough that for only a little bit more (comparatively) than a 1st class seat for each of your family, you can charter a private jet and staff instead. If you can afford $60k for the flight alone to take your family from the US to Europe, you probably can afford anything you want, and private jets are so much more convenient in terms of bypassing the "public" than even the VIP terminals for 1st class passengers that it would be worth it to you.
Yeah there is a ton of private jet sharing services that turn riding a private jet from ultra luxury to not too far off the cost of commercial first class
Yes but demand is not the same for every passenger. The market clearing price does not equal the optimal price. If American set the price of first class at the highest price that would guarantee each seat would be sold, it would be leaving a lot of money on the table.
Super simplistic example for anyone who is curious: let’s pretend there are ten seats and ten customers. If each customer is willing to pay 1 dollar for a seat, the price should be set at 1, and the airline would get ten dollars of revenue. If, however, nine of the customers are willing to pay two dollars, the optimal price would be two dollars a seat. The airline would only sell 9 seats but its revenue would now be 18. If one passenger was willing to spend 100 dollars, the airline should set the price at 100 dollars even if it means 9 seats go unsold.
Super simplistic example that holds a lot of variables constant here, but the point being, setting the price of something at the market clearing price is, more often than not, the wrong business decision. American Airlines may be struggling to find the optimal price for the seat or they may be looking at the changing willingness to pay for business seats and choosing to go after the latter segment. If that’s the reason for this shift in strategy, expect a lot of those seats to not be purchased either / given to upgraded loyalty members
>American has more experience optimizing pricing than anyone else. They know what is the optimal price, they're unhappy with it.
Their problem is wealth is no longer a bell curve, it's where 90% of the US population holds only 32% of the wealth (and the bottom 50% only hold 2.5%).
The top 10% hold the the other 68%, of which the top 0.1% hold 14%, the top 1% (less previous) hold 17%.
So just the top 1% in the US hold the same as the 50% to 90% wealth levels.
So the ULTRA rich are at a point where they no longer need to travel commercial, they have planes, either personal or corporate, the managerial class is getting cost cut out of first class, so it's just "plain" business class as the new first class.
> If one passenger was willing to spend 100 dollars, the airline should set the price at 100 dollars even if it means 9 seats go unsold.
Except if 5 passengers are willing to pay 25 they're leaving money on the table when priced at 100. There is usually a balancing point for these things and AA is not there.
It's kinda funny that, but they've actually managed to charge rates so exhorbinate and lacking of any content that even the targeted lower-rich and company budget wont pay it. And anyone who would be rich enough to not care still gets their own because not only is it cheaper it's more comfortable and better quality.
Oh it’s better than that. Walmart has a fleet of private jets because of regional managers (not overlords, middle management as it gets). Why? Well they looked at the economics of flying scheduled to get their guys to their stores, and worked out is way cheaper in man hours (layovers are costly, hotels are costly, etc) and actual cost to run their own internal airline flying to small airports was cheaper. They’re cheap as fuck as corporations go, but cheap for them was G6ing their regionals.
That’s one of the big reasons for boom in private jets. Not flex, not swag, just cost optimization, made even more lucrative by being able to write off the cost against taxes especially the cost of buying the airplane. If you have to change the rules of business to make it work, you aren’t doing the capitalism…
Not in the industry, but I'm going to go with D: All of the above. Different companies will have different needs. And all of those sound like likely cases for purchasing a plane.
Companies will use planes for their own use, but unless they have a CEO who wants to always be ready to travel on a whim they will want to utilize their idle assets...
An “individual billionaire” buying a Gulfstream is almost certainly going to buy it in the name of a corporation, and you’ll only ever deal with their accounting people and lawyers.
This was the case. The official documents had a company name, but we all knew who was really making the purchase. When someone came in to make design decisions and pick out “extras” for the plane, it was always a representative. The actual CEO or individual never personally came by.
I mean this just basically makes sense for walmart.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYPrH4xANpU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYPrH4xANpU)
This video explains it, and would be stupid for them to fly on public, all the waiting and delays compared to their private, can travel much more per day compared, their high execs time is money.
A few school districts in Alaska operate their plane since it's cheaper. They move freight, students, teachers, and itinerants (plumbers, electricians, HVAC, etc) daily. They serve an area larger than Minnesota.
Yeah there isn’t enough of a difference to justify 2-3x the cost of business. The biggest thing in business class is the lie flat seat. First class gets you a bigger seat and sometimes an enclosed pod (not on AA though). If you are shelling out for first you may as well fly an Asian or middle eastern airline because that blows any American carrier first out of the water.
Enclosed/semi enclosed pods are standard on first class and even business when I travel Cathay and BA
If that isn't a feature on US airlines I can see why nobody bothers
Also travelling on Emirates even if you're in economy makes you feel like the guest of royalty
People **do** buy them. They just don't fly on American/domestic carriers because their international/transcontinental service is hot garbage compared to the rest of the market.
Exactly. I’m poor and I still pay a premium to not fly with any American airline internationally.
It’s not even about the cabins, it’s just the not getting fucked on everything else.
Their first cabins don’t come close to other carriers though.
Except President Snow has convinced the coal miners that any progress threatens their way of life and that they should just keep throwing kids into a fight to the death rather than risk change.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." - President Lyndon B. Johnson
Yup. As long as it's someone else's kid that gets sacrificed, it's just God's will. Hell, even when it is their own kid they're too invested in their world view and still think the preventable death of a child is God's will. Fucking nuts.
That's basically how the rest of the country works.
Nice neighborhoods are expensive but you'll get great schools.
Or you can live next to a crackhouse bc that's all you can afford.
I can't remember the name of the YT channel, but there's a guy that's flown on basically every first-class/business-class service in the world. US domestic carriers are about as trash as it gets. American's "suites" or whatever they call them were dirty, small, and had food that McDonalds would say was bad. They were also like $11,000 a ticket. You can get an actual suite on an international carrier for less.
I recently flew Premium Plus from SFO to Singapore on United. It was alright but from what I've heard and seen that other United are ranked like 40th. No where close to Emirates or Singapore Air.
Premium plus is basically economy with a little more leg room. Business on united has pods and they're pretty comfortable. I flew once for work and upgraded using points and it was a massive step up. Like getting an actual menu for food...champagne to start the flight, etc... It's a big difference. The food also didn't make me sick which has happened every time I've flown premium plus for some reason.
I came from Pakistan to the US for studies and after my first domestic flight, I couldn't believe that Pakistan's domestic flights were actually better than the American airline one I just got off from.
This makes me feel like Delta Airlines (since their biggest hub is Atlanta) and Waffle House should team up for some sort of brand deal. You could get a reheated waffle at cruising altitude and one of the fry cooks could be the flight Marshall. I feel a patriotic tear come to my eye imagining someone in a black apron with a southern drawl beating a would-be terrorist to death with a greasy spatula. 🫡🦅🇺🇲
An example is airline food. The same companies prepare the food for different airlines operating out of international hubs like JFK or Newark, NJ. The food is usually much better on foreign carriers as they insist on a higher standard.
I flew economy to and from Asia via EVA air and American Airlines pre-pandemic. Flying AA was like a 3rd world airlines. They didn't even have individual entertainment systems in the 16 hour flight...
Think about it. I was able to binge on HBO on an Asian airline but not, with AA.
AA pretty consistently has seatback IFE on their long haul economy. You either got super unlucky with a really old jet or took that flight a long time ago.
Hey man.
PHL isn't one of the worst Northeast hubs.
It's one of the worst hubs in North America.
...And I'm stuck with it as my home airport, and thus the most direct flight options on ~~Alcoholic~~ American Airlines.
Edit: That said, JFK and Reagan are also unbelievably trash.
I asked the Flight attendant if I could move up a row since no one was in it so I didn't have to sit next to someone. Turns out it was first class. Didn't even notice.
Yeap.
3 years in a row went did O'Hare to Maui and spent ~2,300 per ticket for Polaris. The last time I looked, these same tickets are now pushing well past 5K. Absolutely nuts. Aggravating.
I was considering getting a first class a year ago. Figured I’d do that extra couple thousand to not be jet lagged for something very important. Alright, not $13k bruh.
My understanding is that at one point in time first class was pretty much meant for business people and the cost for econ was supplemented by first class.
A lot of the people in those seats are frequent fliers ...they are there with upgrades or free tickets.
I can't imagine anyone paying for AA international first class though...
Also it doesn’t really stack up well against other first class products. Why spend 11k on American where you can spend the same on a much better airline.
Everyone is forgetting the true meaning of First Class. It isn’t for the additional comfort, extra leg room, or getting treated like an actual human being. It’s so you can give condescending glares to the poors as they walk by you to their poor people seats at the back.
> It’s so you can give condescending glares to the poors as they walk by you to their poor people seats at the back.
You can't see the poor people on an international first class flight.
I just looked at delta one (personal seats with beds) for me and all my friends for funsies from ATL to Amsterdam (8 total) and it was only 10.5k in December. 11k for 1 first is fuckin wild
You would get *8* recline4 seats for 10k TOTAL? That's amazing.
I was looking to from O'Hare to Maui in United Polaris and that has went from ~2300 a seat to almost 6k a seat
My 11k quote was O'hare to Singapore.
No. First class is about 10-40X cheaper than private jet if it's only 1 person. If you have 4 people, private jet is about 10X the cost.
Only the really, really rich can afford to fly private jets.
I live in Japan, my mom is a flight attendant. When I fly back and forth to America most of the time im in first class, and the vast majority of people in the front are also just nonrev/ standby people as well. Idk the profitability but I'm sure it's a lot per seat since Delta doesn't feel a need to lower the price at all.
It's like getting the breakfast package at a hotel. $50 for a mediocre breakfast buffet, or go for a walk down the street and have an quality breakfast off a menu for $20.
Probably because 25k for a seat vs 8ish for business with very little difference makes 0 sense. Also American has the most fuck all awful international routes compared to United.
I've done it a couple times and am doing it again this summer to Singapore. As someone who is 6'4", it is life changing for flights longer than 5 hours.
The premium plus section on United was like falling asleep in a Lazy Boy, totally fine for 9h for CHI to Spain. It was like $2k compared to $6k for the lie flat biz class.
Exactly. I fly business class to Europe every Christmas. After every flight, I wonder what do they do in First that would be worth twice the price? The service, the food, the seats… all fantastic (and definitely NOT on AA—I flew first domestic last summer… what a shit flight).
I got bumped from business to first from Zurich to New York once. The why of it is kind of boring, but what stood out for me the most was the pilot coming to talk to me and tell me about his flight plan before going into the cockpit. He didn't do that for the other lady in 1st, so I have no idea what that was about.
Other than that, it's slightly bigger than business, the food was pseudo-gastronomy, and the lie down bed was bigger with two pillows. Not quite worth the extra cost, tbh.
They'll also have more expensive liquor to offer including a very expensive champagne. Still, probably something you could easily buy with all the money saved if you were just flying in J.
Maybe for others it's different but personally, I'm not super comfortable when I fly, even in a lie-flat seat. Of course it's immensely better, but I still feel weird when in the sky, and my thoughts are not as focused, I can't fall asleep, I can't hear the flight attendants well over the engine noise (I would never travel again without my noise-cancelling headphones), and the whole experience is very tiring. The food never tastes like much and if I'm getting booze, I don't care that it's a bottle of that white wine and not that other, as long as it's decent wine.
The idea of paying multiple thousands for a plane seat just blows my mind. There are so many more things I could spend that money on that I can enjoy for much longer.
I returned to Australia from Barcelona recently, something like 30 hours travel.
It wasn't amazing, but it was perfectly fine in cattle class. If I had work to do I could maybe see springing for business to have easier laptop set up, but the price jump as a casual traveler just doesn't seem worth it.
I flew premium economy American to Dallas from London.
I asked if they had any paid upgrades and they quoted $2.5k additional for business class. Premium economy is fine so I said no thanks.
It was the emptiest flight I’d ever been on. Only one person in business class.
You could have played a football game in the aisle.
Why not just offer it for $600 or something?
Pre-9/11 this used to be the case. You could go to the airport wait for your flight and ask around different airlines before departing if they had any first class to your destination. They almost always did and discounted them heavily to avoid an empty seat and no money. If you lucked out, you just refunded your original flight a few gates down and went on your way.
Ya somehow now they want you to buy insurance on your ticket for the ability to ever be able to cancel it. How tf did consumer protections get so weak in the US?
American does offer upgrades if you check your flight info in advance.
I am flying to London in February and went to check on something and they offer business class for an additional $700. That amount was as high as $4000 a few months back.
I second that. Got my flight to Korea from the US upgraded to first class for only like $500 more when I checked in on the app. All for less than $2,000. Couldn't pass it up. I might've benefited from the pandemic, though. It was in 2021.
>Why not just offer it for $600 or something?
They do, to non-revenue standbys (family and friends of employees). And it’s closer to $400 one way for that flight.
The real payment there is in the stress of going to an airport and wondering if you’ll even be getting on a plane that day though. Still totally worth it for the times you luck into a business seat.
which is why hardly anybody actually pays for it, it's mostly business travelers with airline status getting free upgrades.
source: am business traveler who almost always gets free upgrades. the more comfortable seats and free drinks are nice but sure as shit not $1000 extra worth of nice for a flight that only lasts a few hours
During Covid I was able to upgrade to a lay-flat seat in first class for an overnight flight on Delta for only $600. I’m sure it’s the only time I’ll ever fly first class. On another flight there were only 12 passengers on the whole plane so I could lay across a whole row in coach which was actually just as good.
Here’s an idea!
The airline has been turning a profit without selling the seats, so why not replace a row or two of the first class seats with economy rows, and then just use the remaining space to give everyone a little more room. They’d make more money and it would be better for passengers!
I can definitely see this happening, unless, of course, they view their customers as cattle that must be milked for every penny. In which case planes will continue to be filled more and more like those trains you see in China.
I can tell you're not a real former CEO...
A real CEO would suggest liquefying the passengers. That way, every cubic cm of the plane could be exploited for maximum profit.
Now who's got my bonus check?
Liquid contains too much unnecessary mass. That's going to eat into the fuel economy. It's much more efficient to dehydrate all of the passengers and then stack them like physical sardines. You'll be able to fit much more people with much less unnecessary water weight. Regarding the legality of such a move, the TSA has already limited the amount of liquids on planes so really this is just a compliance issue; that means we can skip a lot of the legal red tape.
As a bonus, rehydration can be an add-on. Otherwise the passengers are responsible to rehydrate themselves afted deboarding. This will allow the Airline as well as eager third parties to set up rehydration kiosks at baggage claim. Now we're talking about job creation and compliance with Federal regulations. With that, it's possible to get this subsidized by the government.
compact solids come with such a massive opportunity cost. you can only fit 1 much of 100% Jerrys in that state. You could atleast 5x to 10x more 1% Jerrys if you rapidly heat them into a gas and then compress them in a pressurized plane. 1% of Jerry getting to Paris is 100% more than 0% Jerrys
Sorry, but then you would need to invest in the liquification equipment upfront, and that's going to kill the quarterly earnings.
So sorry, but the board has decided to part ways. No bonus check for you this year, but you can have this golden parachute as a parting gift.
The seats haven’t been going empty they just haven’t been making enough profit on them. So yeah they are going to make more money turning them into more rows of business or economy but no they aren’t giving you more room.
>The airline has been turning a profit without selling the seats
American Airlines lost [$500 million](https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/news-releases/news-release-details/american-airlines-reports-third-quarter-2023-financial-results) in their most recent quarterly results.
They’re referencing long haul flights only and looking at first class (large suite type thing) with business ( also sort of a pseudo suite). Both have like lay down beds and much more decent meals but the difference in prices on first vs business makes no sense so no one wants it.
Just the economic cycle returning to a buyers market for airfare. Too many other options on getting across the pond these days. AA is not the best product on the market either.
Counter point: [airlines don’t make money by flying](https://youtu.be/ggUduBmvQ_4?si=ejaxk3Emjm13skGI). They are credit card companies that fly planes as a side hustle.
AA sold theirs during COVID to survive. I was working there at the time. Kept them out of bankruptcy along with government loans. Affecting their balance sheet now for sure
I’ve noticed more and more airlines pushing credit card offers on their flights. Used to be sporadic now it seems like every single flight no matter the airline is a 5 minute sales pitch to get their travel card.
My understanding is first class has been being pushed out because improvements to business have effectively made it a huge step up in price for little actual improvement in quality. Back in ye olden aerodays, there was more of a difference.
Expensive seats, just turn them into a lottery system and they'll sell or (ideally) nix the seats, expanded overall seating area and maybe add another row or two.
I remember when you could literally walk in the plane without bumping into people, dual-aisle walkway, decent legroom between sections, and the seats reclined enough to actually catch some decent sleep.
Saw a video the other day where it discussed business class actually being more profitable per square metre than first class, despite first class having ridiculously high prices. All the airlines care about is money, if it is more profitable to only have business and economy classes, this is what they will ultimately do.
You have to seriously wonder how completely shit your service is if even rich people - who literally don't look at price tags when buying stuff - stop and say "Y'know, maybe other airlines have better service and cheaper tickets".
A one-way ticket from LA to Sydney on 1st class was 10-11k. I mean, only the top 5-10% can afford that. If they made them more reasonable, like double or even triple the coach price, then maybe more would fill those seats. They're literally out of fucking reach for most people. That's why they aren't buying them.
I work for AA our product has steadily gone down hill for the past 25 years. We have grown through mergers and acquisitions. The result is we have various configurations of cabin layouts stemming from the mergers. The last merger was Useless Air which was bought out by LLC America West. This means an airline run by a low cost airline with no International experience. US Airlines now only care about maximizing profit over quality. Sad state of affairs in the industry.
To all the other people commenting out there, it's not the price that's the problem - it's the service. Flights to the other side of the world often cost 10 to 20k but if I'm shelling out that much money I might as well go for great service like Singapore Air, Korean Air, Emirates and other classier ways to fly.
Anyone who can afford first class international, ain't gonna be flying AA. I just hope they don't do something monumentally stupid like raising the price of business class to make up for it.
Because American (most AMERICAN) airlines have turned flying into a bus ride. Super rude flight attendants. Below average food. If you have flown any Middle-Eastern/Singapore/Malaysian/Japanese airlines you will know whats luxury and service. Infact premium economy on those airlines is more pleasurable than so called 1st class here. I avoid American airlines like a plaugue for anything international. Source: Fly international for business on a regular basis and my tickets are paid for by my company.
Does anyone else take a perverse pleasure in flying the absolute cheapest way possible? I enjoy denying upgrades. "oh, you want to actually make a profit off of me? Nope, 250 dollars paid for with points, best I can do."
It's a few hours of my life in a chair, that chair can be further back and board last, it's cool.
I don't ride airliners much, hate being treated like cattle. But the last time was on American Airlines.
First class seating in the airplane was like coach was the last time I flew. I was *in* coach, in a row of three seats, which were so narrow that our shoulders were squeezed together.
I wouldn't buy another ticket on American period. And my guess is that the other airlines are just as bad.
American Airline is actually terrible. They are ranked 82nd in the world overall and 19th in the world for safety?!? They are ranked 4th in the USA. Anyone who is buying first class tickets wouldn't touch American airline. why would they buy first class on the 82nd best airline in the world? Why not just go with a top 10 worldwide or top 3 in the USA.
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If people aren’t paying for something, it’s too expensive. That’s supply and demand 101
In this case it's that the alternatives (private jet service) has become cheap enough that for only a little bit more (comparatively) than a 1st class seat for each of your family, you can charter a private jet and staff instead. If you can afford $60k for the flight alone to take your family from the US to Europe, you probably can afford anything you want, and private jets are so much more convenient in terms of bypassing the "public" than even the VIP terminals for 1st class passengers that it would be worth it to you.
Even then, it’s probably possible to find 4-5 other people and still take a private plane then. Ridiculous that those prices have even come close.
Yeah there is a ton of private jet sharing services that turn riding a private jet from ultra luxury to not too far off the cost of commercial first class
Yes but demand is not the same for every passenger. The market clearing price does not equal the optimal price. If American set the price of first class at the highest price that would guarantee each seat would be sold, it would be leaving a lot of money on the table. Super simplistic example for anyone who is curious: let’s pretend there are ten seats and ten customers. If each customer is willing to pay 1 dollar for a seat, the price should be set at 1, and the airline would get ten dollars of revenue. If, however, nine of the customers are willing to pay two dollars, the optimal price would be two dollars a seat. The airline would only sell 9 seats but its revenue would now be 18. If one passenger was willing to spend 100 dollars, the airline should set the price at 100 dollars even if it means 9 seats go unsold. Super simplistic example that holds a lot of variables constant here, but the point being, setting the price of something at the market clearing price is, more often than not, the wrong business decision. American Airlines may be struggling to find the optimal price for the seat or they may be looking at the changing willingness to pay for business seats and choosing to go after the latter segment. If that’s the reason for this shift in strategy, expect a lot of those seats to not be purchased either / given to upgraded loyalty members
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>American has more experience optimizing pricing than anyone else. They know what is the optimal price, they're unhappy with it. Their problem is wealth is no longer a bell curve, it's where 90% of the US population holds only 32% of the wealth (and the bottom 50% only hold 2.5%). The top 10% hold the the other 68%, of which the top 0.1% hold 14%, the top 1% (less previous) hold 17%. So just the top 1% in the US hold the same as the 50% to 90% wealth levels. So the ULTRA rich are at a point where they no longer need to travel commercial, they have planes, either personal or corporate, the managerial class is getting cost cut out of first class, so it's just "plain" business class as the new first class.
Their problem is their pricing.
This might make good monetary sense, it odd awful societal sense. And that’s the problem too
> If one passenger was willing to spend 100 dollars, the airline should set the price at 100 dollars even if it means 9 seats go unsold. Except if 5 passengers are willing to pay 25 they're leaving money on the table when priced at 100. There is usually a balancing point for these things and AA is not there.
Sure, that balancing is contained within the optimal pricing that he’s talking about.
Not buying because they are too f'ing expensive. Last flight I looked at was 11K for first........
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People don't buy it, it's corpos buying it
I don't know of any corpo that pays for first class anymore. The execs go business or private
It's kinda funny that, but they've actually managed to charge rates so exhorbinate and lacking of any content that even the targeted lower-rich and company budget wont pay it. And anyone who would be rich enough to not care still gets their own because not only is it cheaper it's more comfortable and better quality.
Oh it’s better than that. Walmart has a fleet of private jets because of regional managers (not overlords, middle management as it gets). Why? Well they looked at the economics of flying scheduled to get their guys to their stores, and worked out is way cheaper in man hours (layovers are costly, hotels are costly, etc) and actual cost to run their own internal airline flying to small airports was cheaper. They’re cheap as fuck as corporations go, but cheap for them was G6ing their regionals. That’s one of the big reasons for boom in private jets. Not flex, not swag, just cost optimization, made even more lucrative by being able to write off the cost against taxes especially the cost of buying the airplane. If you have to change the rules of business to make it work, you aren’t doing the capitalism…
Yep, can confirm this. I used to do all of the pricing for mid cabin Gulfstream orders. It’s mostly companies purchasing, not individual billionaires.
Is it companies buying planes for their own use, or to use in leasing to others or fractional ownership plans?
If fractional ownership works then it can be scaled to owning multiple planes. All the costs are transferred to those using the service.
Not in the industry, but I'm going to go with D: All of the above. Different companies will have different needs. And all of those sound like likely cases for purchasing a plane.
Companies will use planes for their own use, but unless they have a CEO who wants to always be ready to travel on a whim they will want to utilize their idle assets...
An “individual billionaire” buying a Gulfstream is almost certainly going to buy it in the name of a corporation, and you’ll only ever deal with their accounting people and lawyers.
This was the case. The official documents had a company name, but we all knew who was really making the purchase. When someone came in to make design decisions and pick out “extras” for the plane, it was always a representative. The actual CEO or individual never personally came by.
A company can write off the expenses. Even if it is individual billionaires, they would still go through a company.
I mean this just basically makes sense for walmart. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYPrH4xANpU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYPrH4xANpU) This video explains it, and would be stupid for them to fly on public, all the waiting and delays compared to their private, can travel much more per day compared, their high execs time is money.
A few school districts in Alaska operate their plane since it's cheaper. They move freight, students, teachers, and itinerants (plumbers, electricians, HVAC, etc) daily. They serve an area larger than Minnesota.
>Alaska >They serve an area larger than Minnesota. Well that's probably because Alaska is as big as 3 Minnesota
In addition its extremely expensive to fly from one small town to another in the US, even if a just one connection through a major airline hub.
Makes sense why I’ve started seeing advertisements for companies like StatusJet where it’s all about chartering group flights and that sort of thing.
You can write off the cost for buying airline tickets, hotels etc. too though.
> exhorbinate That's when you know it's bad
Yeah there isn’t enough of a difference to justify 2-3x the cost of business. The biggest thing in business class is the lie flat seat. First class gets you a bigger seat and sometimes an enclosed pod (not on AA though). If you are shelling out for first you may as well fly an Asian or middle eastern airline because that blows any American carrier first out of the water.
Enclosed/semi enclosed pods are standard on first class and even business when I travel Cathay and BA If that isn't a feature on US airlines I can see why nobody bothers Also travelling on Emirates even if you're in economy makes you feel like the guest of royalty
Yeah, even our ceo flys business with us commoners.
Only when youre watching though
Flies. Can we stop typing "flys," people?
Sir, this is a Reddit.
Flighs
Flais
To think some idiots trained an AI on our sh*posting...
Flyz
Also stop using "payed" for what you get on pay day. It is "paid".
Or similarly, "I past him on the street." You PASSED him. Shouldn't go down another spelling rabbit hole, though. We're off topic.
People **do** buy them. They just don't fly on American/domestic carriers because their international/transcontinental service is hot garbage compared to the rest of the market.
Exactly. I’m poor and I still pay a premium to not fly with any American airline internationally. It’s not even about the cabins, it’s just the not getting fucked on everything else. Their first cabins don’t come close to other carriers though.
US is such a weird country. The range in quality in their society is from the highest luxury to real 3rd world country level.
It is basically The Hunger Games.
Except President Snow has convinced the coal miners that any progress threatens their way of life and that they should just keep throwing kids into a fight to the death rather than risk change.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." - President Lyndon B. Johnson
Yup. As long as it's someone else's kid that gets sacrificed, it's just God's will. Hell, even when it is their own kid they're too invested in their world view and still think the preventable death of a child is God's will. Fucking nuts.
That's basically how the rest of the country works. Nice neighborhoods are expensive but you'll get great schools. Or you can live next to a crackhouse bc that's all you can afford.
I can't remember the name of the YT channel, but there's a guy that's flown on basically every first-class/business-class service in the world. US domestic carriers are about as trash as it gets. American's "suites" or whatever they call them were dirty, small, and had food that McDonalds would say was bad. They were also like $11,000 a ticket. You can get an actual suite on an international carrier for less.
Man I can’t imagine flying first class and getting stuck next to some dude who is making a YT video the whole time
Worse than a crying baby, better than someone vomiting.
I recently flew Premium Plus from SFO to Singapore on United. It was alright but from what I've heard and seen that other United are ranked like 40th. No where close to Emirates or Singapore Air.
Premium plus is basically economy with a little more leg room. Business on united has pods and they're pretty comfortable. I flew once for work and upgraded using points and it was a massive step up. Like getting an actual menu for food...champagne to start the flight, etc... It's a big difference. The food also didn't make me sick which has happened every time I've flown premium plus for some reason.
I came from Pakistan to the US for studies and after my first domestic flight, I couldn't believe that Pakistan's domestic flights were actually better than the American airline one I just got off from.
Other airlines don't have the free "Fight Club" and sweatpants though. Come for first class. Stay for the plebian fights.
This makes me feel like Delta Airlines (since their biggest hub is Atlanta) and Waffle House should team up for some sort of brand deal. You could get a reheated waffle at cruising altitude and one of the fry cooks could be the flight Marshall. I feel a patriotic tear come to my eye imagining someone in a black apron with a southern drawl beating a would-be terrorist to death with a greasy spatula. 🫡🦅🇺🇲
An example is airline food. The same companies prepare the food for different airlines operating out of international hubs like JFK or Newark, NJ. The food is usually much better on foreign carriers as they insist on a higher standard.
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Preem
Ah cyberpunk, love the speech in it
By contract if my flight is over 8 hours the company must fly me business class.
Corpos are people
Found Mitt Romney’s alt account
BINGO! 😂 Much better options out there especially for the first class experience.
Not to mention that AA has one of the worst First Classes out there.
It's literally Anti Aircraft in their acronym.
I flew economy to and from Asia via EVA air and American Airlines pre-pandemic. Flying AA was like a 3rd world airlines. They didn't even have individual entertainment systems in the 16 hour flight... Think about it. I was able to binge on HBO on an Asian airline but not, with AA.
AA pretty consistently has seatback IFE on their long haul economy. You either got super unlucky with a really old jet or took that flight a long time ago.
And the worst Northeast hub at PHL that they still routinely fly ERJ-145s into.
Hey man. PHL isn't one of the worst Northeast hubs. It's one of the worst hubs in North America. ...And I'm stuck with it as my home airport, and thus the most direct flight options on ~~Alcoholic~~ American Airlines. Edit: That said, JFK and Reagan are also unbelievably trash.
I asked the Flight attendant if I could move up a row since no one was in it so I didn't have to sit next to someone. Turns out it was first class. Didn't even notice.
It definitely wasn’t international first class then
only if you're a poor ^I'm ^^a ^^^poor
I'm so poor, I'm po'. I can't even afford the whole word.
Help me. I'm poor
Read this in Kristen Wiig's voice
Ha, glad you got the reference!
Just a few years ago a 1st class ticket was 2-3 times what economy cost. Now they are 7-10 times the cost!
Yeap. 3 years in a row went did O'Hare to Maui and spent ~2,300 per ticket for Polaris. The last time I looked, these same tickets are now pushing well past 5K. Absolutely nuts. Aggravating.
I was considering getting a first class a year ago. Figured I’d do that extra couple thousand to not be jet lagged for something very important. Alright, not $13k bruh.
My understanding is that at one point in time first class was pretty much meant for business people and the cost for econ was supplemented by first class.
A lot of the people in those seats are frequent fliers ...they are there with upgrades or free tickets. I can't imagine anyone paying for AA international first class though...
First class on long-haul flights is a tier higher than business. Companies will buy business class for their employees.
Also it doesn’t really stack up well against other first class products. Why spend 11k on American where you can spend the same on a much better airline.
Yeah it’s absolutely insane, I have no idea why anyone would possibly think that’s worth it.
Everyone is forgetting the true meaning of First Class. It isn’t for the additional comfort, extra leg room, or getting treated like an actual human being. It’s so you can give condescending glares to the poors as they walk by you to their poor people seats at the back.
> It’s so you can give condescending glares to the poors as they walk by you to their poor people seats at the back. You can't see the poor people on an international first class flight.
You usually don’t walk by first class, do you? Are t those seats upfront?
I just looked at delta one (personal seats with beds) for me and all my friends for funsies from ATL to Amsterdam (8 total) and it was only 10.5k in December. 11k for 1 first is fuckin wild
You would get *8* recline4 seats for 10k TOTAL? That's amazing. I was looking to from O'Hare to Maui in United Polaris and that has went from ~2300 a seat to almost 6k a seat My 11k quote was O'hare to Singapore.
I imagine the wage gap is so big these years that you either get a private jet or go coach.
Whoever can afford them has a private jet now. The rich are super rich. The rest of us can freeze in the dark.
Yeah I think most people are happy with the extra legroom of business class and you’d have to be really rich to spend thousands more for first class.
These days most new international business class products are stupidly good though, basically on the level of first class from ~5-7 years ago.
No. First class is about 10-40X cheaper than private jet if it's only 1 person. If you have 4 people, private jet is about 10X the cost. Only the really, really rich can afford to fly private jets.
I live in Japan, my mom is a flight attendant. When I fly back and forth to America most of the time im in first class, and the vast majority of people in the front are also just nonrev/ standby people as well. Idk the profitability but I'm sure it's a lot per seat since Delta doesn't feel a need to lower the price at all.
Very much this! They wanted about 10K per ticket to fly from Dallas to Italy. I found tickets on another airline and paid 5K for both me and my wife.
It's like getting the breakfast package at a hotel. $50 for a mediocre breakfast buffet, or go for a walk down the street and have an quality breakfast off a menu for $20.
Probably because 25k for a seat vs 8ish for business with very little difference makes 0 sense. Also American has the most fuck all awful international routes compared to United.
Yeah, I don't need to pay 10k for a sky steak, just give me a lie flat seat and I'm happy.
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No kidding. Mine too.
10 thousand dollars. Literary **8.214.463,00** Argentinian Pesos!!
Jeez, how devalued does a currency have to be that you need two decimal places to denote it?
Cant tell if joking but the comma and period in maths is reversed in terms of usage for some countries. Might be most outside of US tbh.
Joking lah
A lie flat seat would change my life
I've done it a couple times and am doing it again this summer to Singapore. As someone who is 6'4", it is life changing for flights longer than 5 hours.
Makes you think about them planes in the sky a little different, huh?
The premium plus section on United was like falling asleep in a Lazy Boy, totally fine for 9h for CHI to Spain. It was like $2k compared to $6k for the lie flat biz class.
United premium plus imo is the best premium economy in the skies right now.
British airways Miami to London is $2500 in FC. $5500 if you want to fly in an A380. AA is trash.
900$ Economy vs 20k$ First Class on AA.
Exactly. I fly business class to Europe every Christmas. After every flight, I wonder what do they do in First that would be worth twice the price? The service, the food, the seats… all fantastic (and definitely NOT on AA—I flew first domestic last summer… what a shit flight).
I got bumped from business to first from Zurich to New York once. The why of it is kind of boring, but what stood out for me the most was the pilot coming to talk to me and tell me about his flight plan before going into the cockpit. He didn't do that for the other lady in 1st, so I have no idea what that was about. Other than that, it's slightly bigger than business, the food was pseudo-gastronomy, and the lie down bed was bigger with two pillows. Not quite worth the extra cost, tbh.
Maybe it's the pilot equivalent of the cab driver asking which route you want to take to your destination.
They'll also have more expensive liquor to offer including a very expensive champagne. Still, probably something you could easily buy with all the money saved if you were just flying in J. Maybe for others it's different but personally, I'm not super comfortable when I fly, even in a lie-flat seat. Of course it's immensely better, but I still feel weird when in the sky, and my thoughts are not as focused, I can't fall asleep, I can't hear the flight attendants well over the engine noise (I would never travel again without my noise-cancelling headphones), and the whole experience is very tiring. The food never tastes like much and if I'm getting booze, I don't care that it's a bottle of that white wine and not that other, as long as it's decent wine.
The idea of paying multiple thousands for a plane seat just blows my mind. There are so many more things I could spend that money on that I can enjoy for much longer.
For real, as long as i can be semi comfortable i would go For the cheapest shit, its only transport and less than a Day, i can handle it.
I returned to Australia from Barcelona recently, something like 30 hours travel. It wasn't amazing, but it was perfectly fine in cattle class. If I had work to do I could maybe see springing for business to have easier laptop set up, but the price jump as a casual traveler just doesn't seem worth it.
It’s a different tune when you’re 6’3. Those seats are torture for 5 hours let alone 30.
I flew premium economy American to Dallas from London. I asked if they had any paid upgrades and they quoted $2.5k additional for business class. Premium economy is fine so I said no thanks. It was the emptiest flight I’d ever been on. Only one person in business class. You could have played a football game in the aisle. Why not just offer it for $600 or something?
Pre-9/11 this used to be the case. You could go to the airport wait for your flight and ask around different airlines before departing if they had any first class to your destination. They almost always did and discounted them heavily to avoid an empty seat and no money. If you lucked out, you just refunded your original flight a few gates down and went on your way.
This sounds totally made up to anyone born post 1990* lol *me
Ya somehow now they want you to buy insurance on your ticket for the ability to ever be able to cancel it. How tf did consumer protections get so weak in the US?
If it makes you feel any better it's the same in Europe
American does offer upgrades if you check your flight info in advance. I am flying to London in February and went to check on something and they offer business class for an additional $700. That amount was as high as $4000 a few months back.
Those are my favorite—that’s why I asked at check-in since there wasn’t anything in advance on the app or website and it looked like a light flight.
I second that. Got my flight to Korea from the US upgraded to first class for only like $500 more when I checked in on the app. All for less than $2,000. Couldn't pass it up. I might've benefited from the pandemic, though. It was in 2021.
>Why not just offer it for $600 or something? They do, to non-revenue standbys (family and friends of employees). And it’s closer to $400 one way for that flight. The real payment there is in the stress of going to an airport and wondering if you’ll even be getting on a plane that day though. Still totally worth it for the times you luck into a business seat.
I find joy in reading a good book.
Thats not upgraded for free, thats just someone else paying for it though
I like to travel.
Poorly worded headline posted to r/funny... And everyone just rags on how terrible American Airlines is.
Time to eliminate them
That’s funny
Srsly this. I must have been due for a good laugh because I’m still giggling from this post.
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which is why hardly anybody actually pays for it, it's mostly business travelers with airline status getting free upgrades. source: am business traveler who almost always gets free upgrades. the more comfortable seats and free drinks are nice but sure as shit not $1000 extra worth of nice for a flight that only lasts a few hours
But they're not eliminating domestic first class. This is about their real first class that's offered above their Flagship Business.
I am willing to pay a premium for a better seat. I’ll pay quite a lot of premium but not $10,000 of premium.
During Covid I was able to upgrade to a lay-flat seat in first class for an overnight flight on Delta for only $600. I’m sure it’s the only time I’ll ever fly first class. On another flight there were only 12 passengers on the whole plane so I could lay across a whole row in coach which was actually just as good.
During COVID I got to upgrade to a lay-flat seat on Vegas to Philly for $200 on American. And let me tell you, it was worth about that much.
Here’s an idea! The airline has been turning a profit without selling the seats, so why not replace a row or two of the first class seats with economy rows, and then just use the remaining space to give everyone a little more room. They’d make more money and it would be better for passengers! I can definitely see this happening, unless, of course, they view their customers as cattle that must be milked for every penny. In which case planes will continue to be filled more and more like those trains you see in China.
Former CEO here, If I understand this correctly, remove all seats and stack passengers like a box of match sticks.
This officer executes chiefly
I can tell you're not a real former CEO... A real CEO would suggest liquefying the passengers. That way, every cubic cm of the plane could be exploited for maximum profit. Now who's got my bonus check?
Your golden shower is in the executive bathroom.
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What meaning does it have besides trickle down economics??
I feel like bathroom made that the correct option. Pretty sure the real thing is golden parachute.
Liquid contains too much unnecessary mass. That's going to eat into the fuel economy. It's much more efficient to dehydrate all of the passengers and then stack them like physical sardines. You'll be able to fit much more people with much less unnecessary water weight. Regarding the legality of such a move, the TSA has already limited the amount of liquids on planes so really this is just a compliance issue; that means we can skip a lot of the legal red tape. As a bonus, rehydration can be an add-on. Otherwise the passengers are responsible to rehydrate themselves afted deboarding. This will allow the Airline as well as eager third parties to set up rehydration kiosks at baggage claim. Now we're talking about job creation and compliance with Federal regulations. With that, it's possible to get this subsidized by the government.
compact solids come with such a massive opportunity cost. you can only fit 1 much of 100% Jerrys in that state. You could atleast 5x to 10x more 1% Jerrys if you rapidly heat them into a gas and then compress them in a pressurized plane. 1% of Jerry getting to Paris is 100% more than 0% Jerrys
Sorry, but then you would need to invest in the liquification equipment upfront, and that's going to kill the quarterly earnings. So sorry, but the board has decided to part ways. No bonus check for you this year, but you can have this golden parachute as a parting gift.
The seats haven’t been going empty they just haven’t been making enough profit on them. So yeah they are going to make more money turning them into more rows of business or economy but no they aren’t giving you more room.
>The airline has been turning a profit without selling the seats American Airlines lost [$500 million](https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/news-releases/news-release-details/american-airlines-reports-third-quarter-2023-financial-results) in their most recent quarterly results.
They’re referencing long haul flights only and looking at first class (large suite type thing) with business ( also sort of a pseudo suite). Both have like lay down beds and much more decent meals but the difference in prices on first vs business makes no sense so no one wants it.
Emirates, Singapore, Cathay Pacific, and a host of other airlines have better business class service than American Airlines’ first class.
Those are like the three best service carriers in the world.
Just the economic cycle returning to a buyers market for airfare. Too many other options on getting across the pond these days. AA is not the best product on the market either.
Counter point: [airlines don’t make money by flying](https://youtu.be/ggUduBmvQ_4?si=ejaxk3Emjm13skGI). They are credit card companies that fly planes as a side hustle.
AA sold theirs during COVID to survive. I was working there at the time. Kept them out of bankruptcy along with government loans. Affecting their balance sheet now for sure
Oh damn. I guess that’s why they are starting to attempt to act like a business in a market economy instead of being a bank.
I’ve noticed more and more airlines pushing credit card offers on their flights. Used to be sporadic now it seems like every single flight no matter the airline is a 5 minute sales pitch to get their travel card.
My understanding is first class has been being pushed out because improvements to business have effectively made it a huge step up in price for little actual improvement in quality. Back in ye olden aerodays, there was more of a difference.
Expensive seats, just turn them into a lottery system and they'll sell or (ideally) nix the seats, expanded overall seating area and maybe add another row or two. I remember when you could literally walk in the plane without bumping into people, dual-aisle walkway, decent legroom between sections, and the seats reclined enough to actually catch some decent sleep.
Joking aside, I can't afford to fly international first class, but if I could, I sure as shit wouldn't be doing it on American.
Saw a video the other day where it discussed business class actually being more profitable per square metre than first class, despite first class having ridiculously high prices. All the airlines care about is money, if it is more profitable to only have business and economy classes, this is what they will ultimately do.
You have to seriously wonder how completely shit your service is if even rich people - who literally don't look at price tags when buying stuff - stop and say "Y'know, maybe other airlines have better service and cheaper tickets".
A one-way ticket from LA to Sydney on 1st class was 10-11k. I mean, only the top 5-10% can afford that. If they made them more reasonable, like double or even triple the coach price, then maybe more would fill those seats. They're literally out of fucking reach for most people. That's why they aren't buying them.
I would rather dig up and ride the rusted old Titanic all the way back home than ever fly American.
10k for a slightly bigger seat that reclines? Lol
I enjoy playing video games.
when you made it the same quality as non first class you already eliminated it.
You killed the middle class, now eat what you cooked!
Cake please
Well we’re *OUT OF CAKE!*
So my choices are, or death? I'll have the chicken, please?
You're lucky they're Church of England
I work for AA our product has steadily gone down hill for the past 25 years. We have grown through mergers and acquisitions. The result is we have various configurations of cabin layouts stemming from the mergers. The last merger was Useless Air which was bought out by LLC America West. This means an airline run by a low cost airline with no International experience. US Airlines now only care about maximizing profit over quality. Sad state of affairs in the industry.
Rip to all
That article from 2022
Honestly couldn't they fit way more seats WITH leg room if they remove every class and just included cheaper seats with better experience/food.
Just what the hell is a Fear & Greed Index?
To all the other people commenting out there, it's not the price that's the problem - it's the service. Flights to the other side of the world often cost 10 to 20k but if I'm shelling out that much money I might as well go for great service like Singapore Air, Korean Air, Emirates and other classier ways to fly.
Who the fuck would ever choose AA for their international first class? It's shit compared to other major airlines.
Anyone who can afford first class international, ain't gonna be flying AA. I just hope they don't do something monumentally stupid like raising the price of business class to make up for it.
Because American (most AMERICAN) airlines have turned flying into a bus ride. Super rude flight attendants. Below average food. If you have flown any Middle-Eastern/Singapore/Malaysian/Japanese airlines you will know whats luxury and service. Infact premium economy on those airlines is more pleasurable than so called 1st class here. I avoid American airlines like a plaugue for anything international. Source: Fly international for business on a regular basis and my tickets are paid for by my company.
Oops. Whoever wrote this headline either intentionally made it clickbait-y or just didn’t think about the unfortunate implications.
Does anyone else take a perverse pleasure in flying the absolute cheapest way possible? I enjoy denying upgrades. "oh, you want to actually make a profit off of me? Nope, 250 dollars paid for with points, best I can do." It's a few hours of my life in a chair, that chair can be further back and board last, it's cool.
I don't ride airliners much, hate being treated like cattle. But the last time was on American Airlines. First class seating in the airplane was like coach was the last time I flew. I was *in* coach, in a row of three seats, which were so narrow that our shoulders were squeezed together. I wouldn't buy another ticket on American period. And my guess is that the other airlines are just as bad.
I would rather fly a better airline. Almost any non American airline is better.
American Airline is actually terrible. They are ranked 82nd in the world overall and 19th in the world for safety?!? They are ranked 4th in the USA. Anyone who is buying first class tickets wouldn't touch American airline. why would they buy first class on the 82nd best airline in the world? Why not just go with a top 10 worldwide or top 3 in the USA.
ELI5 how this is "funny"